#calamity-update-talk
1 messages · Page 39 of 1
Hello p the Azzy
well there's that one kirby star dropped from ml
its not even a proper green its a weird toothpaste teal color 😭
evil gun
Hide of Deus killed GP she gone too soon, fly high 🐦
yes yes melon gun talk to the hand
mod role is like glowing radioactively
Brushes your role’s teeth
do u mean verticle
🪥
which is one example out of four
can we give back melon their 25 bans
what the fuck does this mean
true true
do u mean vertical
no im talking about wings with primarily horizontal movement
yes lol
I like how you keep calling me GP as if I’m the youtuber GP
you are clearly
Bc fryzahh said his role color was toothpaste colored, I was joking about toothbrushing
hello GP
I'm calling both of u GP
you can't do anything about it
😇
what if I call YOU GP
nuking kiriblight
I think the idea of you having to give an accessory slot up for wings is maybe more fair in vanilla but I feel like in calamity, especially lategame, wings are nigh mandatory for majority of players
But I’m not exactly a pro so I’m sure people much better than me have their thoughts
whar
i've never seen you and gp in the same room before thb
im pretty sure every person knows wings arent just horizontal movement, even if theyre hover ones
you have four wings in the entire game that have more horizontal movement than vertical and even then thats not only horizontal movement, whereas dashes are all horizontal
i have
source
Users try not to get nuked challenge impossible mode
your mom
damn
I will nuke everyone in this channel rn
j
hope this helps
🖕
woah
I wish I was this cat tbh I'm thirsty as hell in this heat
so no, you cannot replace wings with a dash and have the same result because they are not functionally identical types of accessories
except bunnies
Get in the bunker guys
get water idiot
YAYYYYYY
gps stopped talking before you showed up tho...
oh hey gp
hi
waters u
We need to get in the bunker to avoids the nukes
i will now flourish
the bunker is a nuke
You should know we’re not the same person because I’ve done shroom and he’d never
i was gonna say smthn funny but i forgot
gemstone policeman
yea sure

hey general practitioner
best argument i've heard so far
isn't it actually gatling pea
yes
yes
p
no
p
i hate both of you
but over time its mattered less and less what it actually stood for
p
p
youre meant to GASLIGHT people
youre the hater
gp stands for gaslighting people
The p shall live on
you just hate
tsuki star princess
thats what GP stands for after all
Gaslighting People
It’s the best and most true argument
🐌
yeah im lighting you on fire with gasoline petrolium right now
hiiii
hello
hiiiiiiii
Hello tsuki
💥
Bye tsuki
boom
All that happens in this channel is people exploding
what no spoilers in 10 days does to a cst
shut up tupid gun
its not even been 10 days
Which GP is the real GP
last spoiler on the 13th
is now the 23rd
math
explodes the unexplosion
anyway to actually get this channel back on track
no one cares about that channel
spoiler
explodes the inmunity to explosion

YES
hell yeah
hi spoiler
The mage
beloved mage accessory......
its so peak
flesh totem new BR activation item
What’s the vanity?
hell yeah
YEEEESSS
it's so peak
The totem looking mighty fine
[
Sunny the 🐐
Sunny sure does make a “Sunny” day for us
it's mage now
nice new vfx for taking half contact dmg
like minecraft totem of undying
mysterious mysteries
so true
That's true
Awesome teaser
swapping nebulous core sprite hold on
Totem’s becoming a mage accessory isn’t it
yes
Nothing actually changed though, it just gives +1% mage damage
im burning to death
Cools u with ice
WHAT
that's why it's peak
untrue, it gives 5% crit too
MURDER
🧊
peak
And no life means no calamity
Oh yeah, new mage meta
i will replace the sun
it was 6% last time it was shown 
why not ask nicely like a civilized cheese
Is it becoming a “mage accessory” or an accessory good on anyone that also has some bonus to mage damage like counter scarf with true melee
P would be the best sun
full mage
mage nerfs are much needed
It's magic
god bless
anyway @silk terrace what's the outfit and pet about
Gotcha
Very interesting
Flesh totem meta is coming
I believe
the pet is a different mod
i mean i guess you could use it with summoner since it's technically anything that uses mana but
the vanity is a dev vanity iirc
damn
borealis bomber new meta
Chaos stone meta
sunny's i think?
anyway flesh totem might be way overtuned, i can do a mana regen last prism build just with this and haven't even finished moonstone crown
that's fine broken stuff is funny
gleepy
What’s gleepy
oh yeah moonstone crown might become a mage accessory
so true
go convince xyk to buff rain armor
Also are there Totems you can place in vanilla terraria
"Mage is the worst class" in shambles next update
xyk doesn't mean convincing for that
@ catt
lol
Not quite
you say that like rain armor isn't already broken
so sleeby
and like that would need convincing
anyway pop quiz
how many ink clouds do you think ink bomb's on hit effect spawns
Too many
0.9
8
2147483647
.76
"several"
@mighty geyser
memorizing the 32 bit integer limit has to be one of the dumbest things i have done
not enough
count the jelly beans
and by "several" they actually mean 60
I’ve been playing splatoon btw
Sunny please execute ink bomb
already did
Good day
its not removed but it is better
shader?
Yeah I didn't mean remove but just that currently it's such a nothing accessory
What if terraria splatoon edition
Filler recipe item
10 max stealth and 7% stealth regen
ink bombs are now on every hit rather than the 20 second cooldown
20 second cooldown stealth still exists it just isn't the entire accessory anymore
i am a shader
Okay now memorize the 31 that come before it
Power of shmeo
Gloves
i am code executed on the gpu
Kid Gloves
Teen Gloves
Silencing Sheath but less bad
how do we make this dogass item viable boss
idk just throw some stats on it
Rogue class
Rogue class
Rouge
I think we should've kept it spawning more bombs in multiplayer
yeah that was funny
maybe i'll do a full rework later but i really don't want to shove another rework into SSO and it at least solves the problem for now (the problem being that it only did anything once every 20 seconds)
Ink bomb now throws a bomb alongside your main projectile and bursts into 60 projectiles
god if this was souls i would just throw an active skill on this but you cant just do that in basecal fuh
Bone Glove
I think I would turn to ashes
From the ashes
embed sends the message across i think
I sure wonder what the contents of this GIF are 😄
close enough
This almost happened once
what if using your weapon dropped an ink bomb from the sky that bursts into 60 projectiles
Circular fan of ink bombs
refresh instantly when swapping to another weapon
and wat if those projectiles also dropped their own ink bomb
Casual reaction
Thats how rogue accessories makes you feel sometimes
wt me
haii
wtf
patreon role has colors now
cool
weh
pleasant gradients
no
Weak
Huge
Oh right negatives stuff causes 1 to be chopped off at the end
For unsigned that's correct
this would be whole numbers
yeah
unsigned
integer would be like
1
1
3
7
15
31
i think
devourer of johns which johns have u devoured
john your mom
i also devoured john tsuki
welcome
have you devourerd john john
poor john john
john john is too powerful I fear
john john is allpowerful
So wait can someone explain what the desert scourge new sprite is gonna be
So this is basically just a replica of the real official resprite that hasnt bren showed yet?
yea
Croccy fella
that image is a really accurate re-assembly of the sprite using parts teased in different screenshots
This is what we have and what they used to build that
lizard amphibian
Went from just a worm to a worm with feet
worm to salamander type being
Despite everything... It's still you worm
ik the feet aren't final but they kind of look like baby hands 😭
love the new lizard worm
the feet are meant to be stubby and goofy iirc
biology
chat what if the sprites were left alone until the real new content released
i readed before that what's shown might not be final but I can be wrong
you see, the sprites are part of the new content 
they're not functuonal
what are you even saying
can you elaborate what this means
you see, if the boss for example includes a new moveset it may need visual tweaks here and there
I think they mean they want the new content before the resprites
yeah but what is there to complain about
Though most of the bosses resprites also come with a rework of said bosses
sso also adds so much new content
what does this even mean, the spriters arent coders so its not taking time from making more stuff
maybe?
chat what if we taped this guy to a chair and "accidentally" leave them in a basement of an abandoned home with no food or water wouldnt that be funny
😭
based?
tsuki im beating you with sticks later
i think its odd to push back improving dated content and only focus on adding new content, when both could be done at the same time
also reworked old content is still a net benefit of content to me
and it increases the density of quality
keeping fabsolian bosses in the mod while making enemies and biomes that have more thought and care put into them is gonna make said bosses fit even less
and they alrady suck ass rn
as if reworking contents aren't new contents
let's not forget the scoog is asking for that rework n sprite ever since the controversy of month's ago
over a year ago
i think
some people really think devs work on all things at once and somebody working on sprites means nobody works on coding
damn time flies fast
?
its been like 9 months
garbowhy are you here
go shower
doubt
you also like aureus stfu
What's your favorite boss
he's gonna say King Slime
damn wait so it was a recent controversy when i became active?
smellon
my favourite boss is the one with the attacks
So not a fan of ravager
i cant really say, theyre all fucking mid at best thanks to fabsolian design
Coward
Also providence disagrees
I sense providence slander coming up
providence is one of the better ones but also run in one direction for 70% of fight
Providence is the only Calamity Boss who I can say is actually good but she still has problems
And it's funny because I think that problem is easy as fuck to fix
Make her flame aura permanent?
Wdym I'm genuinely confused
Hammers like deltarune
can you guys kill providence's arrow projectiles
is there a fabsolian boss that currently isn't either a bullet hell or has the same AI as a vanilla boss?
You know how her big fireballs and small flames?
even providence has movement from ice queen
Those spawn extra projectiles
But they are basically impossible to actually dodge
You just stay away from them because they are comically fast
Does hive mind count
when the big fires explode the little fires are very small and fast making them difficult to dodge
Oh those fuckers
hive mind is from terry no?
Why?
i guess you're right
Those are probably the worst part of the fight for me ngl
I genuinely don't know
unfortunately touched by fab multiple times throughout the years
sad
the fab touch
Providence's arrow bullethell is my favorite thing
Byeah I think there are 4 things that should be changed in Providence to make her actually amazing
Honestly depending on arenas I also dislike the lingering globs but that's because I have a hatred of most lingering projectiles
the cheese touch
you should elaborate 
stop reading my brain nerd...
never
i am in your drawers
i didn't have much issues with hive mind except for the times i got hit by clouds i could barely see
i just felt like it
The dreaded...Golem explosions
fry can we remove providence's fire attacks
i think it'd be a much better fight
vanillin why do you hate the funny arrow bullet hell
Removes you
thats where i put my dishwasher pills
Lingering projectiles could work very well though I don't think they are executed well in Calamity unfortunately
its not even a bullet hell
should i tease more acid rain theme on tiktok
Providence's aren't very nice either I do agree on that
Better yet, remove Providence's fire
can you tease it on a good platform
It's a tricky little fun attack and it's enjoyable and fun and cool
like uhh uhh umm
She's the goddess of rocks now
i dont know
tease acid rain tier 1 on facebook it'd be really funny
Provi big fireblasts should explode like gauss nuke
The thing I dislike the most are Aquatic scourge's clouds
Like, that boss dies in 2 seconds at most so it's not hard at all, but those red clouds might as well say "hope your arena is big enough you can afford not to go in here for 30 seconds shithead"
not me learning in plain 2025 that many calamity bosses suck at today's standards 💔
glad you can work on em now
the horse touch
Horse like deltarune
I never fought Aquatic Scourge, but I'll take your word on that since it sounds like an...ehhhh fight
1 - Rework her movement to make her friendlier to close ranged combat
2 - Rework her three main moves to be just generally better
3 - Do SOMETHING about the Guardian phase
4 - Balance out her 2 biome exclusive moves to not be biome exclusive and actually balanced
AS is one of the better fights it's just the lingering projectiles that kinda kill it for me
close ranged combat 🗣️
skelli like deltarune
i dont have issue with the lingering scourge projectiles, atleast not in the sence of it just arena checking you
they just do actually nothing imo
😨
close ranged combat rises up
It could use a more diverse moveset though cause rn it kinda just chases you and does the funny circle
This + Making Death Mode Providence interesting would put Providence in a finished state imo
make providence a lunatic cultist clone
If you can afford to get away, yeah, they do nothing
But if you somehow have to return back there because of like, recharging your wings or something? Pain
Headlong rush moment
i have gone through the clouds before, not pain
Death mode providence should get a phase 2 where she turns into the beautiful butterfly
thats night form
I have many ideas for Death Mode Providence
my mana burns
-# this is NOT a screenshot from the DoG rework
i just wanna give her the enraged pattern without the enraged stats
doze is that performaning well at all
Ourgh DoG is melting
Booooo
death mode just kills you irl
actually
i notice no issues
somehow
huh
Holy shit you're making mana burn make the enemies burn too? Keep cooking! Mage best class!
surprising
I mean that'd work but I think it can be a lot better
also man that visual could use some work...
only if you change vhex too
its mana burn right?
yeah
yeah i could prolly change both of em
they're intended to be the same style
The problem with Death Mode Providence is that Pure Providence also exists and idk which to prioritize
also i need to make vhex do flames on the player
make it look more like calamity
the flame do be looking odd when it gets bigger
like when you apply it on Ares 😢
fryzahhh you will be the 🐐 for improving this one
explodes ares with mind
my spark dark
??
mirror blade i thought was melee
do we know what mirror blade does
no?
wh
???
that never has been a thing
my sparks? dark.
my armour? nebulous.
my mana? burnt.
also mirror blade is reworked anyway
i dont remember that
living fossil
but!
butts
chaos stone does make all items reset mana cooldown
anyways, is DoG no longer immune to 99% debuffs anymore or it now excluding Mana Burn
nothing is immune to mana burrn
good
worm bosses in fear
making nothing immune to a debuff that has visuals probably doesn’t turn into a good idea
Cooking leviathan like a fish
According to doze
from 4 minutes ago
it didn't seem to be causing any issues on DoG
that’s not the only thing im concerned about
he has NASA PC cmon now
though it would probably be a good idea to make worm bosses take less damage from that debuff
lul
otherwise I'm gonna kill DoG with wand of sparking
and it's gonna be funny
aquatic scourge getting fucking vaporised by chaos stone
@dull heart is this true
it’s based on hit damage right
she's already pretty friendly to close range combat (though probably less so after the changes to soaring potion
or is that a leak oop
We know how it works
yes
oh I guess I don't
from my experiance either polter is piss easy for tmelee or she is not friendly
didn't the damage scale with how much negative mana you have?
yes
polter
it is 1% of the hit damage per -50 mana
ah
Yeah but I think she can be more
tupid gun
er, weapons
thats just unneeded
higher base damage would be ideal from the sound of it
then whyd u bring polter up
grill him
Provi is a bitch to true melee because of her movement yeah
yeah, i had issues with provi when i had post polter tmelee gear
skill issue
Tstupidki
it doesn't really matter
tsupid
well they said it POORLY
so at -100 mana, it's +2% DPS
you will now suffer doofinshmirtz backstory
adding fifteen electrons onto ur brain specifically
at -700, it's +14% DPS
😨
you won't survive at -700 mana
chaos stone seems very high risk high reward
👍 Chaos Stone will now be an all time staple for my Mage playthrough
-35 HP/sec iirc
never gonna take it off
and now i interpret you as being even worse
but! it doesn't cancel natural regen
10 electrons to each of your atoms @summer shore
there's a lot of stuff you can do
sends it all back with a thunderbolt
Okay chaos stone sounds like a lot of fun
My spell doesn't work like that.
It's an instant application.
Ignores your spell
just dont get hit
Ignores your ignoring

Exactly
this is like powerscaling
it is
I have a…probably really dumb idea
oh no
you probably can't even win at wordle
lmao?
I can overdoe it better than you
overdoe
DOH

Mana Polarizer and the Mage alcohol also both work very well with chaos stone
to allow controlling mana burn
female deer?
Ugh when can SSO come out
like dess deltarune???
nevver
when its ready
L
like dess getting run over by asgore truck???????
mods, kill this person
Tsuki stop spoiling
ah yes the very true spoiler
we're killing you tomorrow tsuki
its chapter 7 totally
I haven't played deltarune I wouldn't know
ch5 has dialogue
chapter 6 has a story
What if you could combine the Cryonic, Perennial, and Scoria items that don’t have upgrades together, and make life alloy versions of the items.
ch7 includes a character
theres a rune thats quite delta
im killing you
Undertale revamped
see this guy gets it
For example, combining Darkecho Greatbow, Bladedge Railbow, and Continental Greatbow
we don't need a terrablade 2 situation going on here
like
I like the idea
but that screams terra blade 2
life alloy but i made its weapons fucking aids to craft
lmao
That’s why I said it was a probably dumb idea
how would negative 1170 mana be
:(
going back to this
Does this mean mana polarizer/the alcohol can limit your max mana
but no more one off weapons, or set weapons, unlimited set weapons, and no set weapons
ASGORE NOOOO
we already have Terrablade 2 
"ever wondered why my battle theme is called bergentruckung?"
Exoblade is terrablade 3
oh wait is it terratomere
this one died thankfully
...terra edge is getting shot behind the barn isn't it
yes :D
It still exists???
already did
wait is terra edge still alive
I thought it died 3 decades ago
Terra Edge hasnt existed for a long time
I'm a fossil I'm living in pre exo mechs calamity
yeah its been 6 feet under
even though I've killed exo mechs multiple times
Shade spreading misinfo
you're not fossil you just have dementia
I guess
no...
i will kill you
stop beating the dead horse and start beating idk cnidron
Okay honestly
if terra edge gets reworked into that unused vanilla terraria sword
that would be cool
We need to make new ai for this guy so we can beat it up
yes
we are not readding Final Fractal
make it now!!
c'mon every other big mod adds final fractal
why people obsessed with First Fractal?
isnt final fractal kinda still in the code
yes it is
it's an unused weapon
a few mods bring it back or rework it to be anime as fuck
iirc its just zenith before zenith was finished as a concept but it still exists in vanillas code
Literally just a beta Zenith with worse visual 
It's such a weird weapon because it is currently the only unused weapon in terraria
Like the novelty is there
there's something special about it
why is it still in the code
How is final fractal any different from some other projectile spam weapon
It isn't
First fractal was cooler than Zenith ngl
but it exists and it is the only weapon you cannot get in terraria
Your rong
L
zenith is just flying swords
I dislike zenith too tbh
First Fractal has players too
its not actually
theres the skull bow
wait huh
And more interesting than Zenith
Rare doze L..
I didn't know about the skull bow
It's so fucking weird though
Zenith is just rapid fire boomerang
That visual effect looks weird as fuck
it's just unfinished
it looks weird because its unfinished !!!
Remove the players and it's literally just another projectile sword
First fractal is what I think when doze initially talked about reworking swordsplosion
imagine if zenith was literally just the sprites of the swords and nothing else
itd also look weird
Burnt Sienna is getting a full redesign and rework 🐦
is this a troll
the gif isn't working doze
It's not loading
gif aint loading

"this is first fractal" as in it doesn't exist yeah
webp moment
It work for me
works for me
yeah
yours is not working for anyone else
and badass looking
zenith for comparison
anyhow i think this works better as a zenith spear rather than anything really
cos yknow
did this one work
you stab
that one worked
it does
i love how swords are just not swords
i mean, you could just do it for a hypothetical nadir rework
dedicated item 😊
you could even solve the readibility rework if you theme the nadir as an evil shadow counterpart to the Zenith
First fractal feels modded to me
donor item
again, HYPOTHETICAL
go talk to that person not here
Final fractal would be my donor item...
I do love the different swords that first fractal summons
what if Red from Terraria donated to Calamity Mod and that was his donor weapon...
This one is so stupid
I like how one of them is terra blade but longer
L O N G
Straight up just summoning other yous from different realities to attack
This one is probably my favorite
Looks anime
xenoblade vibes
Bottom right is also pretty good imo
Yea
Ok this is a very strange weapon concept. Why would they make slightly different versions of the terra blade to use for a fast attacking animation where it's hard to see each individual sprite. That's like so much spriting effort for so little payoff
Because soul
and it would be an easter egg like "did you know they put the terra blade sprite in the fractal weapon"
i like these two
zenith blows I'm sorry
Can we all agree the zenith sprite at least is worse
I just hate it
I prefer zenith over terrablade 2 sorry
This sprite is so
I'm biased toward zenith but I only started playing after 1.4 came out so I never grew an attachment to the final fractal concept
what am I supposed to be seeing besides sword shape
im pretty sure like half of them use the same base that is then edited
Zenith should've had a true melee swing where you use the Zenith itself, and each tmelee strike summons a few of its material swords to swing at the enemy as well
Fair yeah. It still makes me wonder though like. Why (other than it's Funny lol)
Like make 'em different colors or something so they stick out surely...
All three of these are so much more readable than zenith sprite
I could say the same about first fractal
im pretty sure the intention was to be that theyre similar but also slightly different
the fractal sprites pass the silhouette test
This sprite is worse than almost every single final Fractal projectile sprite though
why is the item sprite the worst one
Only one maybe worse is the long terra blade
weird combination of all the sprites
it keeps the terra blade handle : 😭
This is the only final fractal proj to use the terra blade handle I think
Thin terra blade
not even thin just long
It looks like an enchanted sword with a curse of something stupid, like breaking if it hits someone who ate a lemon within the last hour
what are you talking about
I said what I said
A direct upgrade to the tundra leash should just be more of them.
Exactly
Maybe not 50. MAYBE
yeah the zenith is definetly a weapon design wise
but it's purple so it's fucking beautiful
purple lightsaber
this is how i see it
and yeah it would look cool
but green is better for this imo
Add a slight purple coat
That’s just the night’s edge
I was gonna say
truer night's edge
wait i should have used tne
True nights edge color palette
Truest Night's Edge
Omega nights edge
Make it the true night’s edge color palette
cal players cant read once again
brachydios slime coated night's edge
now use true excal
first fractal isnt goated enough to have a unique color pallete
no
why nor
true final ultimate fractal night edge
Much better
goes hard
why are there 17 images of first fractal recolors in calamity spoiler talk
schizophrenia
no he said "something else" and never specified
tupid
this was the something else
tupid tsuki
no
:(
bro is onto nothing❗️
pls :3
texture pack that resprites an unobtainable item
I’m still pissed that’s it’s new name
renamed to volcanic eruption of volcanisms
firey greatsword is a pretty generic ass name you can give to a sword and volcano is short, sweet and gets the point of the weapon across
it should be at least volcanic greatsword
overall i see the new name as an improvement
volcanic greatsword i could see working too ig
anyone who likes fiery greatsword over volcano is blinded by nostalgia
Muramasic greatsword
Fiery Greatsword when I apply Flask of Fire to every swords
volcano is a pretty generic name...
Nights edge greatsword
way more than fiery greatsword
you think so?
Excalibic greatsword
aye
Terra greatsword
Exo Greatsword
Personally I think Volcano could be applied to a couple things, like a wand or gun
greatsword that is fiery
not nostalgia
Wooden greatsword
Crimson greatsword
Corrupt greatsword
Even a hammer could be called Volcano
simply people that have played more than 2 games
Fiery Greatsword greatsword
This is not called throne-greatsword
volcano just happens to be more
banned
yeah
Very spoilerious chat

Burnt Sienna full redesign and rework
waht if i did it
there you have your spoiler
terra blade themed
woah...
someone tell me why he's making first fractal edits
Because we brought it up
Bored
and he wanted to
im being told this is autism
I suppose he's waiting on the vhex resprite or whatever
idk what you mod guys do
er
dev guys
same for me but with PBG. the homing missile and mine enemies she spawns that are like borderline fucking invisible just ruin an otherwise fantastic fight for me. doing it without tesla potion is even worse.
yeah calamity mod developers don’t really do anything with their life other than develop calamity
sad!
clearly
sentenced to eternal terraria modding 😔
its so sad fryzahh now must work for calamity or cal adjacent stuff and nothing else
it's fine at least the patreon supporter money is being put towards a good purpose now
😨
i wouldn't wish that on my worst enemies
I think flesh totem will be an accessory
flesh totem is goated now
flesh totem will actually be a summon item for a new boss called the revenger
I think it should convert your mana into healing like chaos stone (no cooldown)
its a future boss version of ravager that got its revenge on yharim and yharon and used yharons soul to ascend again and reconstruct itself properly
god please yes
Also yeah you're trueing with this
PBG suffers a lot from visibility
She also just felt kinda clunkier to fight earlier this year too so idk if her movement changed at all in Expert Death
idk why people think she's clunky
could be fossil stomp talking but it seems fairly easy to tell when she's gonna do a dash
Idk what fossil stomp is but overall she feels less coordinated? There were a lot of dashes that sort of caught me off guard though that is also partly due to the fact that she switches to dashing the frame she reaches her designated dash location which can leave you with very little reaction time cause you also need to move constantly to avoid everything else coming at you in the non-dash phase
PBG back before BH felt better to fight overall just not really sure how to put it
If she didn't get changed in that update then it may just be skill issue cause I've been playing Terraria a lot less as a whole since then too

