lore-discussion

[leaden bridge]

yharim forged it himself with his two manly hands while yharon help

not rlly

i mean i guess maybe

[robust osprey]

idr exactly but its kinda just metal with auric essence in it or something

[leaden bridge]

someone on that cult Had to be like

[robust osprey]

also, auric is racist

[leaden bridge]

an attuned forgemaster or something

[sinful adder]

Metal that's full of dragon power in the same way the dragons are

[leaden bridge]

how else would they make auric anything

[long bloom]

it's basically all but confirmed he was attuned to zeratros

like cmon

[sinful adder]

They didn't, exactly

[leaden bridge]

xeroc has an intricately made mask of auric

[long bloom]

the suspiciously auric shaped mask yeah

[leaden bridge]

like

its not

hard to believe

[sinful adder]

No one can work with auric, especially not pure auric, without being attuned

[leaden bridge]

someone else in the cult was attunned

and he was in charge of making auric stuff

[sinful adder]

It also needs a skilled smith

[leaden bridge]

i assume the dragons liked it for jewelry and stuff

so theyd have a guy to do it

if the dragons couldnt do it themselves

[sinful adder]

The dragon cult you mean?

[leaden bridge]

which like maybe they can

maybe there was a forge dragon

dragon forge

[sinful adder]

Yeah so someone attuned to a dragon (very hard requirement to meet) has to forge things out of auric

[timber glacier]

Well does auric ore reject like innanimate things or is it just living things cause like they could forge it while only holding it with tools

[robust osprey]

what if yharim just did it himself

[long bloom]

lego set 70627

[sinful adder]

As far as we know, only each dragon's monk was attuned to them

[sinful adder]

Yharim is not a skilled smith. He is strong, but not trained.

[sinful adder]

It rejects things that have a will or are controlled by something with a will

[leaden bridge]

i mean not exactly like that

you can mine it

theres layers to it

[long bloom]

can you not state this as a fact

[timber glacier]

Also like I do wonder how the fuck the terrarian gets to make stuff with it

[long bloom]

we don't know anything

[robust osprey]

you fool it with yharon's soul fragment

I think

[leaden bridge]

yeah but there can still be one

[timber glacier]

Oh that actually makes sense

[leaden bridge]

also i assume the dragons used auric themselves? i dont see why theyw ouldnt

they have the racist metal that only they and people they rlly trust can use

[long bloom]

infusing it with auric soul fragments tricks it into thinking it's attuned to everything

[robust osprey]

big claws

[leaden bridge]

i dont think all dragons were clawed

and even then

[robust osprey]

ok fair enough

[leaden bridge]

you dont. you dont need claws to use auric evne if you need like a human to forge it for you

[timber glacier]

I do wonder if like you made of glove out of yharon’s feathers or something if that could also trick it and like not reject you while holding it since its kinda like yharon touching it

[sinful adder]

A writer told us this a while back

[leaden bridge]

idk maybe

especifically cuz its yharon though

[robust osprey]

what are you gonna do with unforged auric

[leaden bridge]

i mean it weird

[long bloom]

can you find the message

[leaden bridge]

it works through clothing

[robust osprey]

other than throw it at things tor reject em

[leaden bridge]

anda rmorb

[magic epoch]

Fruity Pebble

[sinful adder]

No

[leaden bridge]

but not with like a pickaxe

[timber glacier]

I will say that explaination does explain golf balls since don’t they bounce off it

[leaden bridge]

golf balls are a joke

irrelevant

[long bloom]

this may be helpful

[sinful adder]

It was about draedon trying to work on yharim's armor though

[timber glacier]

No golf balls must be canon

[leaden bridge]

1. okay so they had a guy. they had a guy to do it. they had a guy thats it. the dragon cult probably existed for a long while so they just got a guy to do it

[robust osprey]

actually thats a good idea

make auric bars a rogue weapon

[long bloom]

doomsday device upgrade

[heavy sail]

ooh, i like songs and voices as a metaphor there. attunement being a very fitting word
it's very hollow knight
yharim and yharon's souls harmonize perfectly

in order to wear the cool dragon armor, one must get their soul to do a dragon soul impression. kinda

[sinful adder]

It also matches my theory that souls are wave based just like quantum particles

[wanton pendant]

Racist to racist communication.

[heavy sail]

dogwhistles. dragonwhistles

when i was first trying calamity, before i got to yharim's dragon-soul-eating-xeroc infodump i kind of got the impression that anti-god cause was about something more abstract. like about mortals not owing any higher power worship, the unfairness of having to honor and respect a being that doesn't respect you back. that and the fact that so many gods were tyrannical rulers, fighting against them was just good in a material way

then i learned that it was a very specific beef

[wanton pendant]

The propaganda was working it seems.

[heavy sail]

and like
i don't actually blame yharon or really any dragon for hating auric gods. his kind was hunted to near extinction. though i suppose that some dragons could've been pretty nasty and tyrannical themselves

[wanton pendant]

(They're not called auric gods.)

[heavy sail]

and i also assume that with a lot of dragons and the gods that succeeded them, it was a consensual sacrifice. that's what i assume the case was with silva

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, certainly happened.

[heavy sail]

hell, maybe even with xeroc

[wanton pendant]

I mean, how else are you meant to take out things like the Dragon of Death?
Either that or Agnus had a really good sniper rifle.

[timber glacier]

I am wondering what were the circumstances behind ontinilou ascending because while she seems to be a generally good person idk why the dragon of souls would necessarily willingly give her their soul

[leaden bridge]

#yharonshouldvejustlethimselfdiengl #stopbeingselfishbro,.,.,.,.,.,

[heavy sail]

but not everyone had the kindest of intentions
so i'll joke about yharon being racist, but i don't really think he was, exactly. because usually real world racism comes from either no reasoning at all, or unsound reasoning based on hate once you strip away all of the faux-logical justifications. so, unless i'm misunderstanding something, i don't really think it's fair to call this genocide survivor racist against like...gods i guess?

he does seem to come across to me as someone not too fond of mortals and their silly affairs though. except for yharim, his ride-or-die bestie

[wanton pendant]

Dragon was also a good person and was Moon Lord victim #1 probably was screwed either way.

[leaden bridge]

no he was 100% racist to dragon offshoots

[wanton pendant]

Oh, no, he's racist. He's racist against other stuff, not just gods.

Yharon likes two things, Auric Dragons, and Yharim.

[heavy sail]

like humans, other sapient species (especially lizhards), draconic offshoots, okay yeah i see it

i wonder if he'd be better if his dragon friends were still around- did he have dragon friends?
if he did, maybe he saw some of them sacrificing themselves for mortals and thought that was absolutely insane. like, those lower beings are not worth dying for

i wonder how many dragons there were, too...

[wanton pendant]

I imagine he had friends in the way that a bully in an American movie set in a school would have friends.

[hollow pivot]

Apparently there were around 3,000 Auric Dragons, half of which died to Fovos/Moon Lord.

[sinful adder]

It's understandable to get this from in game info but they actually really are just plain evil and racist according to lore writers, and we'll be able to see this in game eventually.

The gods were nowhere near universally good, but many of them were entirely justified in what they did by any reasonable standard

[hollow pivot]

Bro was soulist before Xeroc or Fovos. It's just almost never stated in-game.

[heavy sail]

okay call me falling for yharim's honeyed words but i do find that idea slightly disappointing. like not quite as narratively compelling as a yharon who was probably kinder to anything non-auric once, but wrote them all off once his friends all died. and it's easier for him to do that because he's this immortal being with a very detached perspective

but eternal hater yharon does have its appeal, too

especially because he has one mortal he actually, genuinely loves and respects! i think. it would be pretty disappointing if he was just a wicked mastermind using our whispering warlord friend as a tool or something. like how yharim claims the devourer treated him

takes away the golden heretic's agency

[wanton pendant]

Yharon literally kills himself trying to ensure Yharim lives just a little bit longer.

[heavy sail]

aww

hell yeah

[wanton pendant]

That's the premise of the boss fight.

He's also the one boss that takes recoil damage.

Because he's pushing himself too far trying to kill you.

[heavy sail]

i mean like, not good for the world, but i like that

oh shit, i didn't realize that! that's rad!!

i think i heard about the lyrics to RotJD not being canon anymore and mentally overcorrected

[wanton pendant]

No, they're actually more canon now.

It's Stained, Brutal Calamity that's not canon.

[heavy sail]

yeah, that i knew

the parts that specifically make it not work are whenever they mention calamitas doing this at yharim's command, right? that and your character being phrophecised?

which is a shame, because "at your rulers despondent demand" and "the end is nigh, for the witch and the prophecy" are some of my favorite lyrics

[wanton pendant]

Well...
Things in the lyrics that aren't true:
Calamitas is acting on Yharim's orders.
Calamitas will die if she loses.
The player is objectively a good guy.
Calamitas has intentionally tried to sacrifice her humanity. (Arguably.)
There being a prophecy.
The war still being on.

[heavy sail]

if you'll allow me to indulge in a bit of "okay i know this isn't actually how the story goes (and i get the impression that the devs are getting tired of people misunderstanding their current story based on artifacts of older concepts, like outdated lyrics) but i do think this idea is neat"...

[leaden bridge]

Idk i mean in the end he's both

Well he's not a mastermind I don't think yharon had a well formed plan or anything

But he did take advantage of a vulnerable and gullible Yharim to kill five bajillion people

[wanton pendant]

I think it was more like;
"And that is how I came to be here, in the clutches of those fiends."
"Let's kill them. All of them."
"Ok, sure, why not?"

[leaden bridge]

There's kind of a lot more needed than that for the five bajillion people dying

[heavy sail]

i find the idea of cal just going back to yharim after faking her dad's death pretty compelling actually, and quite sad. like if she was so unable to imagine herself living any other way and doing anything else, she continued acting as yharim's magic brimstone nuke even as it was killing her inside. because like, imagine if she thought, "this is who i am. this is who i always will be. i killed my brothers, my people, entire kingdoms, and i can't stop. the archmage was deluding himself and only distracting me by trying to convince me i could be anything else. now he and his naive whims are gone, and i'm still here."

or like, sticking around for a few months before she found out about calclone, and that was the final straw, because she couldn't take the idea of anyone else being made to live and feel like her

[wanton pendant]

I had an idea about that concept and it didn't end well for her.

[long scaffold]

imo having Yharon just being 100% pure evil is a tad... boring?

canon or not I think the story is best with both the gods and Yharmy being morally grey, even if one side can be pointed to as the "bad guys" more than the other

[leaden bridge]

U can be pure evil and a complex character

[wanton pendant]

The gods aren't morally grey due to not being an actual faction, it would be a case by case basis.
Yharim's side just straight up is awful.

[leaden bridge]

There's really no way to square the scale of what yharon and yharim did in response anyway

It was in no way justified

[wanton pendant]

A serial killer who also sometimes kills other serial killers is still a serial killer.

[long scaffold]

I think I just like the narrative that Yharim was a good person at heart dedicated to the worst cause imaginable and slowly descended to reflect that

Even if the actual lore was just a dragon teaching him to be racist

[wanton pendant]

That would be a very different story.

Since that's closer to what happened to Calamitas.

[leaden bridge]

That doesn't rlly work rn not only because there's not one single defined turning point for that but also it's rlly hard to justify him killing a bajillion people

[long scaffold]

She seems more of a victim of manipulation than my vision of Yharim
Having trouble wording my vision of him

[long scaffold]

I've been viewing him ignoring Polterghast as the "turning point"

That whole lore item reflects the descent I envision well

In my interpretation he wants the player to basically be him at his best forever

A person dedicated to slaying gods yet someone pure of heart to everyone else not associated with them

[leaden bridge]

Idt that rlly works well because the existence of polterghast necessitates years of war and him ignoring the hundreds of people he threw in the dungeon anyway

[wanton pendant]

That would be an extremely different version of the character.

[long scaffold]

I guess less of a set "yeah I'm evil now" but the point of no return I guess

[long scaffold]

I imagine him killing followers being a descent from killing people actively fighting for the gods into slaying anyone who associate with them at all

[wanton pendant]

Got reminded of this image.

[plucky juniper]

i think what they're saying is that yharim is deluding himself into thinking he wasnt always this horrible, and that yes he was in fact in the wrong at the start

but at the same time...

[long scaffold]

Since they all become the same to him

[long scaffold]

He's not redeemable imo, or at the very least it would be more compelling if he never got the chance

[leaden bridge]

I mean he says as much himself

[raven brook]

that's still making him evil, though

you aren't making him morally gray by Giving Him Nuance

which i mean eah yharim isnt meant to be a cardboard cutout john evil guy that hates babies

[long scaffold]

He was definitely wrong for killing all gods blindly but he was at the very least noble about it and genuinely thought they were a race of pure evil
In my eyes by the end of his crusade he'd have evidence of the contrary shoved in his face and just... not care

[raven brook]

i feel like people conflate the idea that if a villain/antagonist having complexity behind their actions = moral grayness often from what ive seen

[raven brook]

Yeah i mean that's exactly what happened

he is blinded by vengeance and obsession but also i think he's kind of egotistical and wnats to be the hero of the story more than anything

[long scaffold]

Yeah

[raven brook]

He's still an evil asshole but you can understand how he got there

[long scaffold]

I don't know where my interpretation goes wrong though

[plucky juniper]

i personally think yharim saying he did something wrong by causing polterghast to happen is... extremely interesting

[leaden bridge]

whats the deep lore

[raven brook]

yharim armor statue. from yharim, made of yharim.

[long scaffold]

He's had time to think it over in the aerie I think

[wanton pendant]

Was too apathetic to save the bros.

[plucky juniper]

like, to him the people he locked up in that dungeon should be worthless, yet he still decided in the end that, "Yeah, this was a bad idea."

[leaden bridge]

sorry chat i forgot about all the people i threw in the dungeon lolll

[plucky juniper]

enough that he thinks he's irredeemable because of that. that's interesting to me

[long scaffold]

When you're basically trapped alone (or maybe with one guy idk) you have a lot of time to think about what you did wrong

Even if the second you're put into the same choice, the allure of apathy would still win

[raven brook]

I mean his guards and allies were also there

[long scaffold]

Since you still kinda suck

[raven brook]

To mei think it's a case of

[timber glacier]

It is interesting how yharim does definitely not act like he was completely right with everything he did

[leaden bridge]

i mean like

yeah no everyone died

like all of them

[raven brook]

Or it'd be a case of him realizing he lost his allies over negligence when he could've helped them and it would've benefitted everyone

[leaden bridge]

uyeah all of them dude

[raven brook]

I doubt he'd really care that much about the prisoners

But losing the partnership of the dragon cultists would add to his feeling of losing everything he's built up over the years which is why he's depressed

[plucky juniper]

this is also why i want to kill the writers for putting some of the responsibility on stasis because it just makes the lore item feel less impactful

[raven brook]

yeah he regrets shit he just dosent regret the things he actually should regret the most because he's too delusional to realize hes evil actually

[leaden bridge]

huh??????????????????????????

[raven brook]

hes delusional in the most textbook manner

yada yada

[long scaffold]

My interpretation of him by the end is that he's reflected enough to regret his fall from his original morals but A) not the flaws of his original morals and B) would probably still end up following his path the exact same if given another chance despite his words

dunno if that's canon or not

[wanton pendant]

Things Yharim regrets:
Grooming Calamitas.
Leaving the Dungeon to its fate.
Devourer of Gods.
Letting Draedon develop the Plague.
Things Yharim does not regret:
Genocide.
Racism.
Blaming problems on gods that had nothing to do with anything.
Yharon.

[wanton pendant]

Statis was only speeding up the inevitable, I think.

[timber glacier]

Isn’t it moreso he regrets working with draedon entirely or something

[leaden bridge]

WBAT DID STATIS DO

[wanton pendant]

Hey, the civilian burner 3000 was awesome.

[wanton pendant]

Kill people in the Dungeon.

[leaden bridge]

what for??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[raven brook]

I think the idea is that Statis killed some of the wards in the dungeon and those started forming polterghast and the remaining ones were like "yo dude fucking help us statis just killed a bunch of us and now there's this fuckin. thing."

[raven brook]

rescue imprisoned kinsmen i think

[wanton pendant]

Save the bros probably.

[raven brook]

so he did a raid on the dungeon and assasinated some of the guards

but i dont really remember

[plucky juniper]

new dungeon enemy entries indicated in an attempt to rescue people from the dungeon, stasis accidentally killed a buncha people who would've stopped polterghast from sprouting

[raven brook]

the details

[raven brook]

"accidentaly"?

[plucky juniper]

i mean not

[raven brook]

im pretty sure it was a completely intentional assasination

[plucky juniper]

but by accident, those asassinations led to polterghast

[heavy sail]

don't forget ordering the child he abused to go kill her adopted dad! no regrets there!! actually he doesn't even admit that
"i thought him slain by the witch" why do you think that, buddy?

[timber glacier]

Probably moreso he didn’t do it to prevent them from preventing polyerghast

[raven brook]

i feel like that still works for yharim's negligence, no

[plucky juniper]

im not actually sure what the intent with this tho was

[raven brook]

one of their greatest enemies raided their dungeon and killed their numbers

[plucky juniper]

it just kinda seems tacked on

[wanton pendant]

He had it coming for being such a wimp. So what if he groomed his daughter, it builds character!

[raven brook]

and now there's some fuckass ghost thing manifesting to eat them

and yharim is just twiddling his thumbs not doing anything

[long scaffold]

Someone once described it as "I'm sorry for manipulating a child to do heinous acts, I should've done it myself" or something like that

[timber glacier]

Was it like just statis himself doing the attack or was it like him and his bf or what

[raven brook]

I imagine it might just be to give Statis more actual relevance since he dosen't really do much right now but thne again i'm not sure if the bestiary is exactly a good place to reveal such a event

[raven brook]

i mean statis is a ninja

[wanton pendant]

Braelor isn't mentioned.

[raven brook]

i think itwas just him

[heavy sail]

YEAH

[raven brook]

braelor dosent strike me as someone who'd do good in a assasionation/infinltration mission

[raven brook]

Then again

The bestiary rework wasn't really meant to come and just kinda got in by accident and will likely get chan ged later anyways so

[wanton pendant]

It's still stealth if nobody lives to tell the tale.

[plucky juniper]

like, again i dont think polterghast's origins should require another lore figure quite frankly, i think it's fine as the result of yharim

[raven brook]

I mean i think the goal always has been that it's not directly his actions

He didn't go in there and summon that thing

it's always been negligence

[plucky juniper]

and i know that latter idea of polterghast being emblematic of how horrible yharim actually was, is the intent of the writers given

[raven brook]

It wasn't a direct betrayal as much as it was a betrayal of trust if that makes sense (Not sure if that's good wording for it)

[plucky juniper]

calamitas's item description

[timber glacier]

Do you mean gruesome eminence?

[raven brook]

Imagine having a friend/ally you trust and suddenly you are being completely decimated and as you desperately call ofr his help KNOWING he's a person powerful enough to definitely stop the thing that's killing you, probably without suffering considerable setbacks

and he just

dosen't

[plucky juniper]

ya

I wish more people could bear witness to this "Polterghast". Maybe then, they would understand the pain he caused for the world.
this doesnt feel as hard as it should because now apparently stasis caused this as well

[raven brook]

he just leaves you to die

for seemingly no reason

[wanton pendant]

The thing Polterghast represents is a problem that Yharim could have solved but literally couldn't be bothered to.

[raven brook]

Did you assume Yharim caused potlerghast directly prior to this

[plucky juniper]

not directly, but it definitely feels like it was intended to be his fault

[raven brook]

Because i think that was never the goal at all, and while i don't remember exactly how it's talked about ingame, i think it was fairly clear that it was meant to be a result of Yharim essentially ignoring his friends dying

It still is his fault, the same wayt it was before really

Because there was literally nothing stopping him from going there to help his guys other than the fact he didn't want to

Probably was hyperofcusing on killing gods still

[plucky juniper]

again, Gruesome Eminence

[raven brook]

knowing that later on in the crusade he kinda

neglected all his other duties in favour of that

[heavy sail]

ooh king
why'd you have to let your loved ones die

[raven brook]

I mean, i think it still makes perfect sense?

[leaden bridge]

gruesome came at the same time as these also idk its always ben about neglect

[raven brook]

uit's an amalgamation of souls formed out of hatred for yharim basically

[leaden bridge]

statis isnt meaningful here

[raven brook]

that's what polterghast always has been i'm pretty sure

[plucky juniper]

okay, i kinda forgot the earlier parts of eminence stuff

Many will tell you that Yharim fell from grace as his Crusade went on, but that's far from the truth.
Sure, he was a good man when he was killing assassins drunk on power, but even as he dethroned dictators, entire kingdoms were leveled alongside.
I wish more people could bear witness to this "Polterghast". Maybe then, they would understand the pain he caused for the world.

the idea i think of this is that Calamitas sees Yharim for what he was, always a genocidal maniac, and connects this to Polterghast

[raven brook]

Polterhgast represents not only the hatred of a fuckton of war prisoners that were tortured but also his own allies that were betrayed by him as he refused to help them while they were being mrudered

Imagine discovering superman the hero everyone loves has a giant flesh demon made of the hatred of innocents he murdered living in his basement

and also a bunch of guys he just kinda refused to help even though they were supposed to be his friends because he was too busy killing other guys

[plucky juniper]

the idea i've always felt is that Polterghast is meant to be the ultimate symbol of Yharim's destruction he wrought.

[raven brook]

But how would it accomplish that in your vision

And how does it not currently

[leaden bridge]

polterghast should be shaped like the yharim insignia if it was evil

[plucky juniper]

evil yharim insignia is ogscule

[raven brook]

potlerghast should play golf

[timber glacier]

Putterghast

[plucky juniper]

ANYHOW

fuck

[eager bluff]

i would like to see statis' side of the dungeon raid personally

[plucky juniper]

polterghast's existence somehow also requiring stasis is kinda... weird? there's nothing that does to further elaborate on both characters's roles, and it just dilutes polterghast's impact

(by both characters i mean stasis and yharim)

[raven brook]

My problem is that again i don't see how it dilutes polter's impact because it does not subtract from anything to begin with

[long bloom]

this is because we know almost nothing about what happened

[raven brook]

Yharim, regardless of statis or not, was never intended to have directly created or summoned Polterghast

[plucky juniper]

i never said that!

i never said i wanted yharim to DIRECTLY CAUSE polterghast

[raven brook]

He is guilty due to the fact Polterhgast is made of the festered hatred of his victims and the fact he refused to help the allies being slaughtered by it, which just ended up adding to it

If Statis had played a part on it or not, this wouldn't really change, which is why i don't think him playing a role at all changes much in that regard

As of now yeah it dosen't add much to Statis other than probably setting stuff up for future elaboration

But i also don't think it's subtractive to the impacto f polterghast in anyway, because its purpose in the narrative and th eweight of its existence remains basically the same

whether stiats was there and killed some of the wardens of the dungeon or not

Poltergahst's narrative is virtually the same

[plucky juniper]

the issue is that those stasis blurbs are from the bestiary

[raven brook]

Which yes as you said means that Statis inclusion currently ultimately dosen't feel meaningful besides like. aurafarming for statis

But i assume that is just etup for future elaboration

[eager bluff]

id say if anything statis being part of polterghasts creation would increase the impact of polterghast

[plucky juniper]

which as far as we're concerned, is pretty objective with what it says

[raven brook]

Yeah, but how is it being objective relevant here

Statis killed Yharim's guards in the dungeon. This is a fact

Okay, this still does not change what i said

[eager bluff]

because that means yharim didnt even take the time to go after one of his #1 enemies

[plucky juniper]

i mean its not gonna try to lie about you

[raven brook]

It still ultimately does not meaningfully impact the weight of Polterghast's existence or the narrative surrounding it, because everything regarding why it exists in the story is the same

[plucky juniper]

i feel like thats. the issue im having rn. it just makes yharim look like an idiot

[raven brook]

It dosen't have to lie to me. I'm aware that Statis did in fact kill people. It still dose not change anything meaningfully about Polterghast's narrative imo

[plucky juniper]

what do you mean he just didnt. GO?

[raven brook]

He was hyperfocusing on killing gods and neglecting his other duties

[plucky juniper]

isnt stasis a supporter of the gods? thats why he's going after yharim??

[raven brook]

This is literally something that had been established about his character since like, the first lore rewrite

Later down on the crusade he started becoming more nad more neglectful

As he grew more desperate to just kill the remaining gods

[eager bluff]

why would he abandon whatever godhunt he was on to go kill one dude

[plucky juniper]

this doesnt even have the whole, "I got depressed as shit" angle thats meant ot explain partly why yharim didnt go after provi despite her still being a constant threat

[plucky juniper]

because that one dude is hampering his operations

[raven brook]

That's not evne why he didn't go after Provi

Provi can literally teleport

[plucky juniper]

like, i dont think i need to say this

[eager bluff]

except it isnt because very evidently the crusade kept chugging along with polterghast in the dungeon

[plucky juniper]

this just makes yharim seem more incompetent, and im not sure thats the right angle to after

remember stasis literally almost got yharim much later on

[raven brook]

Those aren't his operations. Those are his allies.

Which yes, ultimately, he lost allies in that. He left them to die. But it also means the time he could've spent saving them might've instead went to actually killing more gods and investing in war

The dragon cult at that point would've likely become "disposable" from the sense of the benefits they brought, atleast enough to where he was willing to let them die

[plucky juniper]

and i dont think polterghast should be a symbol of incompetence, it should be a symbol of how yharim's crusade has no grace to begin with

it just

[raven brook]

That is the crux of why Poltergahst is so Bad as a showcase of Yharim's character. Isn't it on a more literal sense a physical manifestation of hatred towards him both from his victims and his betrayed allies but it also shows how his obsession towards his goal comes above all else

About how he's willing to fall down to any moral lows if it means he pushes the crusade forward

The dungeon had prisoners of war and dragon cultists

[plucky juniper]

im not getting that message though

im just thinking, "Why was it written like this?"

[raven brook]

Neither of which Yharim would think were worth saving from a standpoint of benefits, even if they considered him a firend or trustworthy ally

[plucky juniper]

then i think theres some conflicting messages here

YET AGAIN, i reference gruesome eminence

[raven brook]

Yeah

Which again

Yeah it is literally a symbol of his worst crimes yeah

Again

flesh amalgamation of innocent civilians that superman killed in his basement. also he betrayed his allies and left them to die and become part of hte amalgamation because he was too busy killing other guys to bother helping them

[plucky juniper]

okay we need to state our positions

and whatever we're arguing over

what i am even arguing about?

[eager bluff]

i think that polterghast being the way it exemplifies yharims shortsightedness

[plucky juniper]

that should be it

i think my issue is that polterghast is being written as if it were a symbol of yharim's shortsightedness, but i think it is a lot stronger if it is treated as just the symbol of his worst crimes

and by worst crimes, i mean him being a fucking genocidal maniac

[eager bluff]

going to the dungeon right when it was happening would have saved him future troubles but yharim isnt very good at foresight so he ignores the ability to fix one issue right now that realistically wont be a major issue for him for a long while in order to further the goal directly in front of him

[raven brook]

I do not think Statis's inclusion in the Polterghast narrative meaningfully changes it in any way because Polterghast's existence has always been a result of Neglect in yharim's part - Yharim, specially later on near the tail end of the crusade, grew more and more desperate to kill the remaining gods and neglected his other duties, something that is explicitly said ingame. idrm where, but it's in there somewhere

Him not going after Polterghast shows that he was willing to let his allies die at that point if he thought that going to save thme wasn't worth it. Realistically hbe'd justify it to himself with "It was the necessary evil, if i went to save htem i wouldn't be able ot iwn these fights" or whatever.

Poltergahst is a symbol of Yharim's failures: It is an amalgamation of ghosts both of his enemies and former allies united together by noting but hatred towards him, one that was created ENTIRELY because Yharim was far too obsessed with his crusade to bother actually taking care ofi t

[raven brook]

Ilmeris

There's a entire biome that is a destroyed civilization where thousands of innocents died because there were like two gods on it and so he sent his nuclear child soldier to incinerate them

[eager bluff]

"If I do go, I lose the god I'm currently hunting. If I don't go, it doesn't become an issue for a long time."

thats the mentality going on there

[raven brook]

You can't make the dungeon boss a better symbol of the destruction Yharim leaves behind than the literal Biome Destroyed By His Genocidal Tendencies

[plucky juniper]

That's okay

[raven brook]

You can say you wish it was a better symbol of his genocidal crimes or whatnot, but what does that actually entail

[plucky juniper]

i think it is strong if yharim is willing to admit, "Yeah i fucked it up there"

[eager bluff]

see thats the thing

that isnt to do with statis's involvement

[plucky juniper]

if yharim admits even once that he fucked up with one particular thing, then i feel like said thing must be so fucked up, that he cant even somehow twist it around to make him look better in that situation

[raven brook]

He admitting to fucking up i think is likely a result of the fact he's sorta lost Everything now and all the allies he left behind or abandoned are hitting alot harder now. How much of that is sentimental and how much of that is utilitarianism masked as sentimentality is another topic

[raven brook]

He already does it alot though

[eager bluff]

thats more of him not pushing the blame around and trying to pin polterghast on dog

[raven brook]

He says alot of things he did were fuckedu p

And it's because ultimately to Yharim, he isn't lying

When he says killing the gods wasn't fucked up, it's not because he's trying to twist to make himself look good, it's cuz he genuinely dosen't think it was

[eager bluff]

wait no it isnt pinning it on dog

[plucky juniper]

you could assume he was leading that up to blaming it on DOG

cause he does ultimately blame dog as part of his fall

[raven brook]

Yharim admitting something is fucked up imo isn't necessarily a sign that it's so fucked up even for his standards

Because morality isn't a linear scale and all that

I think it's more so to show how he IS able toa cnoweldge things as wrong

but he is completely stuck in his ideology to acnowledge plentoy f Definitely Wrong things as wrong

he can see that abandoning his allies and leaving them to die in polterghast was wrong

but he can't see that yk genocide allat was

[raven brook]

And again, in regards to him seeing polter was wrong

there's this

[plucky juniper]

i guess

[raven brook]

I personally think lragely it's not entirely one or the either

[plucky juniper]

sorry to lead you on this stupid argument cheese

[raven brook]

I definitely think a aspect of yharim feeling bad about things is, whether intentional or internalized

utilitarianism

it's okay

[plucky juniper]

i dunno what im even arguing about at this rate

[raven brook]

im just kinda yapping now

[raven brook]

but i also wouldn't say it's devoid of sentimentality

like part of it is just like. damn i lost so much manpower and strenght to achieve my goals. but part of it is also. damn i lost so many peoplew ho supported me

i think both of them fit him really. he's a completely warbrained mf who has lived in Crusade for 100ish years but he is still a human so.

[eager bluff]

i think it also fits him not even necessarily as a human but as yharim

because hes isolated himself for a long ass time

so it makes sense that at the end of it all he would look back and realize "this isolation was because of me. well ill be damned"

[raven brook]

yah

[plucky juniper]

anyhow would you like to argue with me once again regarding a dungeon thing

because im. still peeved about it

[long bloom]

what dungeon thing

[plucky juniper]

actually yknow what

so back in the sso days when that was still the next update, i saw some arguments between two devs about dragon transformation magic

such things were apparently available to chrysadians

the argument i remember was that eidolists got retconned to be fish-peopled turned by... silva

and a buncha people, me included, werent too happy about that cause we liked our eidolists being people turned into eidolon wyrms

and the argument went into, "it would make so much sense for the dragon cult to try to emulate dragon transformation"

its been literal years tho

so i dunno

[agile matrix]

actually

hold on

arent the eidolists a mash between eidolon wyrm and cultist?

how would. a cultist. get down there

like outside of “yeah man im here to keep The Moon Lord from coming back” theyre pretty normal guys right

[raven brook]

dragon mutation transformation spell whatever

turn into eidolon wyrm

go down there

[agile matrix]

wouldnt they be incinerated by acidic water or whatever or was it dracomorph -> depths -> yay

[raven brook]

if i remember the discussion was about replacing eidolists entirely with merfolk who worship silva or something but then it moved into something about anahita and keeping the mseparate and frankly i dont remember anymore

it was so long ago

[raven brook]

are you immeidately incinerated by acidic water when you go into the sulphur sea or does it instead just do a bit of damage and the moment you go into the deeper waters its gone

theres your answer

[agile matrix]

honestly having merfolk (sso) and merfolk (abyss rework (???)) would be neat

[plucky juniper]

fair enough, again, years ago

[raven brook]

i do think having some anahita worshipees and silva worshippes like. in conflict in the abyss would be cool as hell though

but also i wouldnt kill the eidolists for that

hekc. have it be

a three way conflict lol

[agile matrix]

i thought that we didnt get annihilated was because we’re the main character. all other creatures in the sea take a constant DoT

[raven brook]

eidolists, silva worshippers and anahita worshippers

in territorial conflict in the abyss

[raven brook]

i cant tell if this is a joke or not

[agile matrix]

its like 95% a joke and 5% “why dont WE get scorched”

[timber glacier]

Wait are eidolists like kind of worshipping the primordial wyrm or am I misremembering

Cos if so it would be kind of odd to be fighting against the silva worshippers since like the wyrm and silva are allied right?

[agile matrix]

i thought they worshipped dragons as a whole and since they live in layer 3 and 4 theyre close to like A Really Big Dragon

i guess ???

[timber glacier]

Their bestiary entry does seem to suggest they follow a specific master singular which kind of to me suggests its talking about the wyrm

[bleak hare]

Hey so uhh how come children of gods don’t inherent any of their parents’ powers while draconic offshoots do is there any given reason or?

[long bloom]

we dunno

[timber glacier]

Probably something to do with how they ascend i’m guessing

[long bloom]

we also don't know how dragons reproduce in the first place

[bleak hare]

Or like their genetics

[bleak hare]

Probably how anything else does tbh their js animals with powers technically

[timber glacier]

That doesn’t really mean much since so many animals reproduce in such different ways

[long bloom]

dragons reproduce like sea sponges confirmed

[timber glacier]

Like we don’t know if they like lay eggs, give live birth, can reproduce asexually, need a partnet etc

[bleak hare]

U r right but they seemingly do so like birds

Eggs n all

[long bloom]

we know of exactly one dragon that hatches from an egg

[bleak hare]

Well yharon has an egg so I don’t thinks it’s crazy to say the other ones do too

[timber glacier]

Yharon is bird-like though but not all were

[bleak hare]

Are there like multiple species of dragon that became the auric dragons

[timber glacier]

Also we see actively the fishrons seemingly give live birth to sharkrons in their fights

[bleak hare]

If not then okay sure

[bleak hare]

I thought they were like summons

[long bloom]

dragons are extremely varied, almost none look alike

[bleak hare]

Like mana constructs

[long bloom]

no they're his kids

that he throws at you

[timber glacier]

I’m pretty sure sharkrons are actually the dukes children

[bleak hare]

Idk bro if the other it also makes sense since that is what folly does

Yh sure okay

[timber glacier]

Which suggests fishrons give live birth and also undergo male pregancy, potentially without the need of a partner since the dukes can infinitely make them without there being any nearby partners

[long bloom]

what if dutchess fishron is hiding just offscreen the whole fight

[bleak hare]

Is there a non duke fishron out there

Is there just fishron

[long bloom]

probably

[timber glacier]

While this may explain it for duke fishron, theres no shot that anyone would be willing to get with the old duke, look at him

[bleak hare]

Would that be like it’s juvenile state

[long bloom]

anybody's guess

[bleak hare]

What if fishrons get stronger as they age like viltrumites

Explains why old duke is so strong

[timber glacier]

Also seemingly dragons might also have like a very distinct infant phase, since wyverns grow from wyverntails, which are like tadpoles, and duke fishron produces sharkrons as offspring

[bleak hare]

Conquest fish

[long bloom]

what the hell is a wyverntail

[timber glacier]

Quest fish

[bleak hare]

I’m with xzier

[long bloom]

curse you angler

[bleak hare]

Please tell me that is a joke

[timber glacier]

No its real

[bleak hare]

They are from the water?😭🥀

[long bloom]

it could also be like the harpy fish and just happen to look alike

[timber glacier]

They are caught in the sky lakes

[bleak hare]

Hot cross sons🥀

[timber glacier]

The angler specified they are the infants of wyverns

“I know something youuuuu don't! Fine, I'll tell you, there's a terrifying creature that flies among the stars! I'm not making this up! It's called a Wyvern! But, but, you knew that already, right? Well what you don't know is that they are born and raised as tadpoles! So, they're actually like.. well, a frog! Hop to it and get me one!”

[long bloom]

is that dialogue still in calamity

[timber glacier]

I’d assume so

[long bloom]

hmm

[timber glacier]

It wouldn’t break anything

[bleak hare]

Is there any explanation as to why some enemies (like wyverns) appear in hardmode or no

[long bloom]

@cosmic zenith thoughts?

[long bloom]

it tells you in the bestiary

[bleak hare]

Where

[long bloom]

in the bestiary

[bleak hare]

Like it’s changed in calamity or it’s just vanilla

[long bloom]

calamity

[timber glacier]

But like wyverns having a tadpole like infant stage shouldn’t realistically change anything

[bleak hare]

Yh

Holy shit before old duke eats the blood worm on the end of your hook please tell me he says stand ready for my arrival worm

Make that shit cannon

[long bloom]

i don't want to make a shit cannon

that sounds unpleasant

[timber glacier]

A shit cannon sounds like something redigit would add

[long bloom]

[timber glacier]

I guess also thinking about it wyverns having aquatic tadpole-like infants is quite similar to duke fishron’s sharkrons, as while we never see them actually “living” except while duke is yeeting them at us, due to seemingly being just sharks they potentially are also similar being aquatic infants of fishrons that can’t fly yet

[bleak hare]

Wait what actually are wyverns

[timber glacier]

Dragon offshoots, descendants from the dragon of storms

[long bloom]

descendants of vetrasyl, the dragon of storms

[eager bluff]

vetrasyl frog arc

[bleak hare]

Wow

[long bloom]

he looked like this

[bleak hare]

Holy shit that’s sick

[long bloom]

true!

[bleak hare]

Are there any other dragon designs

[long bloom]

just him and yharon so far

[bleak hare]

I’ve seen zeratros’s that’s all

[timber glacier]

Other than yharon I don’t believe so

[long bloom]

his are scrapped

[bleak hare]

Why

They looked cool

[long bloom]

they were super generic

[bleak hare]

Besides it’s not like they were being implemented anyway

Still looks cool

[long bloom]

also the artist got booted for repeated plagiarism

[eager bluff]

the artist pulled all concept art + it was generic + the artist had a record of plagiarization

[bleak hare]

Oh ok

There’s multiple tho right

[long bloom]

there were 2 candidates yes

[bleak hare]

Are they all by the same guy or sum

Ah ok

What would be even look like realistically

[long bloom]

probably still white

[bleak hare]

Xeroc dragon or sum idk

Yh

[plucky juniper]

okay can we pull his concepts first

because even if we're never using them

[timber glacier]

Make xeroc a biblically accurate angel dragon totally it’d be cool

[plucky juniper]

at least some picture would be nice

[eager bluff]

small issue

[bleak hare]

No

[eager bluff]

which bible.

[long bloom]

here

[bleak hare]

The bible

[plucky juniper]

ya

[timber glacier]

I was moreso just saying like give him a ton of wings and holy theming since the hallow has primordial light ties and follows a holy theme often iirc

[bleak hare]

I came I saw I came

Holy shit that’s insane

[bleak hare]

WHAT could pre-nerf moon lord been on to mid diff that thing

[bleak hare]

Yh let’s not turn him into nameless deity

[long bloom]

yharim's stimulants

[bleak hare]

Yharim wasn’t alive

[long bloom]

google joke

[bleak hare]

What did yharims stuns do again I forgot

[eager bluff]

yeah but his stimulants were

[bleak hare]

Stims

[eager bluff]

endurance regen swiftness and ironskin combo potion iirc

maybe titan potion i forgot

[bleak hare]

I remember like one of the first things that happened after I started playing was they got removed

[long bloom]

twas a sad day

[eager bluff]

ah no regen and there was i think t2 food buff included in them

[bleak hare]

I’ve been playing for a long time in comparison to most I think

[timber glacier]

Regen was like part of cadence potion right

[long bloom]

yuh

[timber glacier]

What does that dev have to do with anything

[bleak hare]

Is it crazy to say I think there should be way way more post moon lord enemies

There’s only like 5

[long bloom]

antarctic take

[plucky juniper]

anyhow both of these designs are no-diffed by ancient dragon elden ring and its not even close

[timber glacier]

Thats like something the entire dev team wants

[bleak hare]

Minus the slimes

[bleak hare]

Oh ok

[timber glacier]

Slimes would only add 1 I thought post moon lord

[bleak hare]

Cool glad they are with me

[eager bluff]

INCLUDING the slimes theres 6

[bleak hare]

Bloom and auric

[timber glacier]

Auric slimes aren’t a thing

[long bloom]

there's no auric slime????

[timber glacier]

That just doesn’t exist

[eager bluff]

the 3 profaned fuckers there are 2 dungeon guys iirc and then bloom slime

[bleak hare]

Am I on some bullshit

[eager bluff]

auric slime is fake it isnt real it cant hurt you

[timber glacier]

Also the baby dragonfolly

[long bloom]

yes

[bleak hare]

I swear to god I remember an auric slime

What on earth

Is it from an addon?

[eager bluff]

ah right yeah that was the 5th

[timber glacier]

Draconic swarmers

[bleak hare]

Do we really count boss summons

[eager bluff]

i remembered there were 5 i just thought there were 2 dungeon dudes

[long bloom]

they spawn naturally

[eager bluff]

considering it spawns regardless of if the boss is alive yeah

[timber glacier]

The wiki for some reason also counts the abyss layer 4 things in the post-moon lord section but like they can always spawn

[bleak hare]

Wait what

Draco if swarmers spawn naturally?

I’ve never seen that

[long bloom]

✅

[bleak hare]

Why does old duke have acid powers again

[timber glacier]

Does he?

[bleak hare]

Is it just like a Godzilla situation

[eager bluff]

racism

[eager bluff]

thats why he has acid powers hes racist

[timber glacier]

His toxic masculinity causes him to be able to make radioactive poisonous stuffs

[long bloom]

[bleak hare]

So given that stained brutal calamity is inaccurate lyric wise now are they gonna redo the lyrics or make a new theme at some point

[timber glacier]

The devs probably might want to but the community would kill them for touching a dokuro song

[bleak hare]

Only problem being is scars of calamity is imo hot garbage in comparison to stained brutal so they gotta do it right

It’s still really good tho

[plucky juniper]

him.

[timber glacier]

Why does he look so veiny and like hes about to throw me into a river with bricks tied to my feet

[eager bluff]

because he is

[timber glacier]

The hog mobster

Hogfather

[long bloom]

no

there's literally no reason to

[timber glacier]

Well like if it is innacurate to lore it might be confusing for players to understand the lore but like eh its definitely not worth touching a dokuro song due to reasons

[long bloom]

literally nobody can understand the lyrics without subtitles

[timber glacier]

Yeah good point

[west plume]

..?

lol

i'm unsure how to respond to that one or how to confirm or deconfirm anything. how do you think dragons reproduced before they ascended

[timber glacier]

Clearly dragons reproduce by being cut apart and each limb regrowing into a new individual like starfish

[west plume]

it's weird that people seem to think of dragons as this mystery creature that grew out of the earth and reproduces uses mitosis rather than just being a weird third generally social archosaur

[rain osprey]

they reproduce through mitosis

[long bloom]

thank you Not Sunny

[timber glacier]

Well some of the dragon-descendents we see have… less orthodox reproduction strategies seemingly

[west plume]

maybe we should make draedon include a dragon phylogenetic tree in draetalk

[long bloom]

[timber glacier]

[west plume]

like wut

[rain osprey]

"why do you call them wyverns when they have four legs and no wings. you're a fucking idiot"

[timber glacier]

Duke fishron shooting its babies (?) as projectiles

Also wyverns also according to the wyverntail quest fish, have a tadpole like infant stage

[rain osprey]

does this imply fishrons reproduce in sharknados

[west plume]

you genuinely think that duke fishron is giving live birth on the spot during the fight and having it's spawn home in on you

[rain osprey]

i'm all for that that's badass

[long bloom]

that's literally what the bestiary says

[west plume]

Why

[timber glacier]

How else can it technically infinitely fire them

[long bloom]

relogic moment

[west plume]

another one for the bestiary list ig

[rain osprey]

i suddenly have so many questions that i never wanted to have

[west plume]

anyway,

• dragons are likely archosaurs. they are neither dinosaurs nor crocodilians but are a type of reptilian
• as reptiles, they are generally diverse in their egg laying strategy. some dragons have evolved to be viviparous, but most are oviparous. this is seen irl in boas, skinks and some other reptiles
• not all of the auric dragons are apart of the same species but most haven't drifted enough to produce infertile offspring; you should think of the initial auric dragon group as being kind of like big cats that can hybridize to produce occasionally fertile young

not all wyverns look like vetrasyl because vetrasyl is an ascended being who got magically transfigured but all wyverns are of vetrasyl's original species

[long bloom]

are the eggs hard or soft

[west plume]

it depends, like with archosaurs and reptiles in general

[long bloom]

interesting

[west plume]

yharon had a hard egg due to his species being oviparous and probably heat-adapted

[long bloom]

can you absorb an auric soul through an egg or do you have to break it

[west plume]

you have to break it open and kill the little chick inside sorry

[timber glacier]

Is the wyverntail quest fish canon to calamity in that it says that infant wyverns are aquatic like tadpoles and grow up in the sky lakes, or are they just not canon

[west plume]

i don't really think it matters, but i think that a lot of displayed dragons in game have a juvenile stage before fledging or an equivalent maturation stage

i think that juvenile wyverns could be 'like tadpoles' in the sense that they may be aquatic and primarily adapted to locomote in the water

like monitor lizards

[long bloom]

are the sand tortoises from calamity's vanities the juveniles of basilisks

(joke)

[timber glacier]

Are the fishron quest fish like part of the growth cycle of like fishrons like duke or like how does their life cycle work I wonder

[west plume]

i think a lot of them are just sister species to fishrons in general

something like https://calamitymod.wiki.gg/wiki/Molten_Fishron would be like how a hyrax is to an elephant

[timber glacier]

It is weird though cos the quest fish is literally called a fishron, like thats the name of the quest fish, like in duke fishron’s name

[west plume]

pigrons also exist as a separate species to fishron in vanilla terraria

i don't really see anyone questioning this

[west plume]

fishrons and pigrons are probably split up like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paenungulata

duke fishrons are like if manatees took the place of elephants

regular fishrons are more hyrax-like

[timber glacier]

Also does duke fishron still canonically give birth to the sharkrons they fire in the fight

[west plume]

if it does i am going to argue with the lorewriters about it because that's weird as hell for a predator animal

urgh. bestiary change was in 2.1

i could have caught that

[bleak hare]

I agree it makes more sense for them to be summons

But it’s still fine

They have powers anyway

Reproducing super fast doesn’t not make sense

[timber glacier]

I guess one could explain it as him having already given birth to all of them, but like they show up from the ocean in the fight but idk

[bleak hare]

Quinn taking he times😂

Oh yeah ig

Speaking of evolution are humans primates in calamity because we don’t see any others

[west plume]

yes

[timber glacier]

Theres an angler achievement which is called “trout monkey” which like idk if it counts but might suggest they do exist

[west plume]

i am kind of unsure how we would fit an ape into calamity

do we make it so yharim has a pet gorilla

[feral skiff]

did the people in the calamity mod go through similar technological advancement to earth
(stone age, copper age, bronze age, etc..)

[timber glacier]

Well stone tools don’t exist so they can’t’ve

[feral skiff]

yeah because they became obsolete

[long bloom]

i highly doubt that given how neither stip nor archon even noticed it was in the betas until after the update released

it was supposed to be delayed

[west plume]

yharim's league of chimp gangsters

[sinful adder]

Make them summons. They're an established thing that exists, temporarily recreating a living creature with magic

[timber glacier]

They do seemingly have like biology since they have blood on their gore sprites, but weirdly seemingly duke fishron has blue blood while the sharkrons have red blood

[bleak hare]

I agree with Ben on the sharknadoes

Quinn is kinda right tho

[timber glacier]

Also like I’m confused because do we know summons are “recreating” a living thing with magic, like are you referring to summon weapons? If so we don’t fully know how they work but if I’m missing something please tell me

[bleak hare]

I don’t think you actually specifically need an instrument (weapon tool or other) to channel mana into, it just helps with focusing it. Calamitas for example is powerful and trained enough that she doesn’t require tools or weapons to channel her mana. This is probably what duke does if that’s what ur wondering.

[mighty zenith]

block tales

[bleak hare]

I don’t get ts reference

[timber glacier]

But like do we have evidence we can make animal construct things from mana do we since like summon weapons tend to specify they “summon” not create which might mean very different thing

[mighty zenith]

🏀 🚫

[west plume]

is there any evidence you cannot

[agile matrix]

is there evidence that i am

"Yes," said Rene Decartes. "You think, therefore you are!"

thanks rene decartes. you a real one

[bleak hare]

Summon and create are used very interchangeably but I think the reason it says summon is because staves for example use like preset magic code sorta built into them which means that if you use them ur like using a pre existing preset if that makes sense

Like a script

That’s what makes the most sense in my head anyway

[west plume]

i think 'summoning' is the outcome rather than a hard and fast ruleset

some may summon actual creatures temporarily using magic and others may create creature-like constructs using magic

[bleak hare]

It’s creating something that already exists in the form of the script in my eyes

[bleak hare]

Yeah that can definitely be the case

There’s all kinds of summons

The enchanted swords for example

[west plume]

it's just a Thing that fights autonomously for you

[timber glacier]

I don’t think so but also we don’t know if like something like that could be intelligent or sentient so we don’t know if like sharkrons could just be explained that way especially since necromancy can’t seemingly make a sentient entity* so logically mana might not be able to feasibly make a sentient entity which sharkrons might be

[bleak hare]

Can we get an actual lore writer in here

[west plume]

i think some undead might be sentient (like calamitas' brothers) but literally none are sapient

[bleak hare]

Syrup and I are on the same brainwave

[west plume]

calamitas' brothers experience qualia still and are choosing to protect calamitas, so they are sentient. they are not sapient and are not discerning on any intelligent level though

[bleak hare]

I think summons are created from matter made from mana which in turn allows them to be controlled because of its origin from the player in my head cannon anyway but I figure it makes the most sense

Or matter being controlled by mana

[west plume]

in order for something to be non-sentient it'd have to have no experience of qualia. you would be saying that undead have the mental capacity of a sponge (none) which isn't true

[bleak hare]

What is qualia if u don’t mind

[west plume]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

This wikipedia article preview has a thumbnail which is the color Red. You are currently experiencing the color Red by looking at it and can have feelings, opinions and associations about the color Red. That is qualia. Things which aren't sentient cannot experience Qualia; Sponges do not know what the color 'red' is and cannot meaningfully process it

[bleak hare]

Gotcha

[west plume]

If an undead can be given a directive to recognize and attack anything which is 'Red' or 'Alive', that is Qualia and the Undead is a sentient creature even if it's on a very basic level

[bleak hare]

Oh ok

Because summons don’t attack everything they see that gives them some of that right

They just don’t because we control them

[west plume]

yes

[agile matrix]

the qualia to KILL

[timber glacier]

Actually thinking about how duke seemingly like shoots out his babies, doesn’t like leviathan do kinda the same thing albeit more as minions than as projectiles

[bleak hare]

Yeah u kinda right

Actually leviathan in comparison to duke might actually be more likely to reproduce her minions because they aren’t just projectiles

[timber glacier]

Why? Also the beastiary for the aquatic abberations says that they are “A spawn of the immense Leviathan, their lifespan can be measured in hours” which suggests like they are genuinely just born to protect the leviathan

Which like is kind of just the same case as in dukes case outside of it being a seemingly male giving birth (but thats also kind of funny so that shouldn’t matter) so like duke doing it should kind of be fine if leviathan can do that

[bleak hare]

Well duke being a male actually is a decent argument as to why his are summons but who knows what that species can do

Leviathan is a female tho

I’m pretty sure

She definitely was in the old lore

[timber glacier]

Leviathan is a female

[mighty zenith]

still is yeah

[timber glacier]

But also how does she even give birth to the abberations if shes the last of her kind or something or whatever she is

[warm gull]

parthenogenesis

whatever they are theyre obviously deformed and messed up

[mighty zenith]

wtf

dai jumpscare

[warm gull]

pretty sure the bestiary entry for them says they only live a few hours

[timber glacier]

Yes it says “… their lifespan can be measured in hours”

[warm gull]

I hate them they suck

thats the truth

horrible creatures

especially when youre trying to tierskip prehm analevi

[timber glacier]

Which like technically everything’s lifespan thats longer than like 1 hour technically can but it definitely means they only live like a couple hours

[bleak hare]

I’m assuming terraria’s super fast day/night cycle isn’t canon is it?

[split mortar]

He did go back to draedon for exo tech…

[split mortar]

We already have the crimson corruption snd hallowed to show the genocidal maniac stuff :/

[split mortar]

The description of the orangutan is certainly something

[wheat walrus]

the wide ape

[wanton pendant]

Of course.

[dense lynx]

Could Batman beat Signus?

[wanton pendant]

He's Batman. He'd figure it out.

[mighty zenith]

he's batgos

[timber glacier]

Does batman get prep time for the fight

[pulsar ocean]

how much batmen to defeat xeroc

[bleak hare]

Depends which Batman

If it’s the darkest night he folds the whole verse and probably WotG too

[long bloom]

at least 40

[bleak hare]

That would mean that either the solar system isn’t heliocentric (which it is confirmed to be) or terraria spins unbelievably fast.

[wanton pendant]

Why?

[bleak hare]

Wym why

[wanton pendant]

Why does Terraria have to spin unbelievably fast to have 24 hour days?

We have 24 hour days.

Very believable.

[bleak hare]

Wait so the super fast days are or aren’t cannon

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, as I said.

[bleak hare]

I think I misunderstood

So the super fast days are cannon

[wanton pendant]

They're not.

[bleak hare]

Oh ok

Mb😭🥀

[wanton pendant]

This is cannon.

[real glen]

Its cannon

But did bunny cosplay

[robust osprey]

that one's different, I think he'd break his slavery contrarian beliefs before his racism beliefs

though thats valid as counter argument I think

[hoary cape]

Batman with prep time could beat xeroc

[robust osprey]

yeah thats true

[cosmic zenith]

🤐

All I'll say is that I'm well aware of that dialogue

[raven brook]

game theory

wyverns r the children of vetrasyl and tides dragon

yep

it even lines up with tyrian and otonilou being buds

🙂‍↕️

parallels and all that. themes and such

[split mortar]

Apart from this i see no reason to think it makes sense other then can theoretically happen
Also wyverns have no tides related stuff afaik

[raven brook]

theyre TADPOLES they start out in the water

clearly

duh

[split mortar]

Ur a tadpole

[raven brook]

boar yourself

oars myself

boars

boar

hog

dude that pfp was yharim

yharim brother what r you doing

[split mortar]

What

[raven brook]

the whole genocide thing wasnt enough now you're stooping this low

[split mortar]

Oh

[raven brook]

😭 😭

[split mortar]

Did i miss yharim advertising mr breast

[raven brook]

yharim advertising porn scam server

🪦

[errant plume]

he got bored in the aerie staring at the sky all day

[raven brook]

me when i scam random people on the internet because im bored said yharim

[errant plume]

would yharim get addicted to doomscrolling

[raven brook]

probably

[stoic gulch]

would silva change during seasons

like is she evergreen plant or not

[wanton pendant]

I think she can choose.

Although probably evergreen as their leaves are always alive.

[wheat walrus]

What is wrong w him

[pulsar ocean]

he kills people

[mighty zenith]

well he is an old fart

makes sense that he'd fall for an account scam

[wanton pendant]

This is why he needed Draedon.

[robust osprey]

do YOU want the SECRET TECHNIQUE to kill ANY GOD!? YES! ANY GOD! CLICK HERE TO SEE HOW!!!

[sturdy cave]

We're going to get to Dragon's Aerie and resurrected Yharon will say "The Aerie is NOT a tomb! It is who we are."

[raven brook]

this is true

thragg and yharon are unironically surprisingly similar in their characterization i think

[light linden]

question

do ants exist in calamity?

[raven brook]

why wouldn't they

braelor loves them after all

[light linden]

where's that stated?

[raven brook]

nervous gulp

where you not here for the braelor likes ants era

[west plume]

well, there are antlions, and those had to have been named after something

[wanton pendant]

My God... lions are canon.
And ants are named after antlions!
It all makes sense now!

All of this proves...
Slime God is the Knight.

[west plume]

theres a lot of silly lore discussion questions lately

[warm gull]

is providence canon?

[light linden]

we haven't gotten anything big lately

[west plume]

like.. bees and wasps exists, so hymenopterans in general exist. normal sized ones. why wouldnt ants exist

[wanton pendant]

God of Anteaters got to them first.

[warm gull]

why must it be a god

and not just a regular anteater

[sacred pilot]

A singular anteater walked down quadrillions of ants.

[robust osprey]

hey syrup does grass exist in calamity

[real glen]

what

[late crater]

Is Draedon a cyborg or a full-fledged robot?

[sacred pilot]

Full-fledged robot.

[late crater]

[magic epoch]

he's a robot, but there's a (as far as i know) unconfirmed theory that draedon is the consciousness of a scientist that was transported into a robot

[wanton pendant]

Draedon's pre-awakening backstory will never be revealed.

He is also technically not 'a' robot.

He is the AI the robots operate on.

[pulsar ocean]

🤓

[wanton pendant]

Permission to obliterate Kozz at the obelisk?

[robust osprey]

permission given

[long scaffold]

Slime god is actually Gaster

[noble falcon]

What is ravager’s favorite breakfast food

[split mortar]

Murder

[long scaffold]

Souls of the innocent

[icy veldt]

Tea

[sinful adder]

I want to understand exactly how draedon went from a sentient machine with a single body (which he presumably learned to control as if he were a human) to putting himself in a presumably immobile and non humanoid computer body, and controlling multiple drones remotely

Expanding a conscious mind is not an easy task. The most plausible way is to make it think faster, so time seems to slow down, or to duplicate it along with any personality and set the clones on individual tasks

[leaden bridge]

i think youre assuming he was born into the humanoid body when theres no need for that to be the case

also does he control them at the same time?

[plucky juniper]

i think its implied that he was born into a mobile form

[pulsar ocean]

How’d he get the body if he was a giant computer

[leaden bridge]

idk maybe he was born into having control of like a bunch of machinery including cameras and machines and build himself one for example. im not saying thats the case 100% but like eitherway

[leaden bridge]

i need all calamity writers to give me their power right now

this is serious and it will be a great contribution to humanity

[bleak hare]

https://youtu.be/JOiGEI9pQBs?si=3EBsAkwDa8GFMk4v
Yo so I saw this video and thought it was really cool and in the cal lore I think this is actually a really good explanation as to how the Astrum Deus came to be because draedon does say in draetalk that they are likely incredibly old

It’s a kurzgezat video btw

[wheat walrus]

Those who knows

[magic epoch]

Gumi can you read

[pulsar ocean]

gummy

[icy veldt]

Gumborf

[leaden bridge]

give me your strenght

its like a genkidama but for writing

[cosmic zenith]

What are you up to, this time :p

[leaden bridge]

this is serious 100% i need it to be as accurate as physically posible

idk how to write yharim man he kinda just says bullshit

[plucky juniper]

its been way too long since i heard about aa lore
arent the grips related to a big bad of the story

[leaden bridge]

yes, they are one half of the chaos wizard chaos

[plucky juniper]

ya gotcha

[leaden bridge]

his name is chaos

this was supposed to be a reveal

[plucky juniper]

yknow

that is kinda disappointing. i would love if he was just known as the Chaos Wizard

[leaden bridge]

his name is otherwise not particularly stated anywhere and is constantly just "???"

[plucky juniper]

anyhow
i have a feeling Chaos Wizard would be known by Yharim in a hypothetical setting where AA and Calamity were canon in the same place

[leaden bridge]

probably but its hard to define that timeline

chaos biomes are old enough to have civilizations built around them and then destroyed

[plucky juniper]

also yea im not calling him chaos im just calling him the wizard

its a lot funnier in my mind to just imagine him as a typical wizard appearance wise and not whatever he proabbly was gonna turn out to be

[leaden bridge]

rlly fascinating stuff

[plucky juniper]

even back in the day i recognized that... the original writer was not particularly great

"flames of discordian pain"

what does that even mean

[leaden bridge]

They're really discordian

[raven brook]

https://tenor.com/view/discordia-discord-discordian-war-drama-gif-6017844285476930533

[bleak hare]

thats ancients awakened right

oh ok yeah stupid question

[wanton pendant]

Gotta be more vindictive. Channel your inner racist.

[bleak hare]

Apparently there’s some calamity fanfic called calamity otherworld that completely rewrites everything and takes a shit ton of inspiration from AA but I only ever saw it mentioned in a comment section so idk

[wheat walrus]

0 msgs in 10 hours this is wild

[icy veldt]

Erm aktzschually it was only zero messages in 9 hours 51 minutes and 58 seconds

[wanton pendant]

They fear the lore.

[light linden]

Personally I've been looking for a fallout 4 mod all day and there hasn't been a significant lore drop in a while

[wheat walrus]

#calamitymoddeath

[icy veldt]

On the bright side, there hasn't been any brainrot for that time

[light linden]

@icy veldt

[icy veldt]

That was posted before the 9-hour-51-minute-58-second silence. Doesn't count, you have lost kidney privilege

[wheat walrus]

67 yharim

[light linden]

if I lose kidney privileges you lose kneecap privileges

[pulsar ocean]

i love roblox

[timber glacier]

I wonder how draedon sounds, like I wonder if he’d have a human-like voice, or maybe like his voice would be like Microsoft sam

[pulsar ocean]

67

[wanton pendant]

So you know DOOM?

[timber glacier]

👎

[raven brook]

Gianni

[split mortar]

Draedon has a voice actor in a trailer, gabriel ultrakill

[light linden]

I expect him to sound like binary sword magneto from marvel rivals

[pulsar ocean]

what would xeroc do if he was about to hop in a car and it turned into a fence

[wanton pendant]

Xeroc would use their Primordial Light power to make a grappling hook and use it to escape.

Of course, such a situation is impossible.

[west plume]

NOOO!! THIS ISNT THE CAR!! HERMIT Inexplicable Mass Possessing Light Beam That Disobeys Physics And Can Be Grabbed

[wanton pendant]

It's clearly hard light, you know, the stuff Green Lantern uses.
This is a Batman upscale.

[leaden bridge]

Is it

[wanton pendant]

Yeah because Batman beats Green Lantern.

And if Xeroc is just Green Lantern.

Then Batman beats Xeroc.

This means that Batman can control the sun, obviously.

[leaden bridge]

Obviously

[light linden]

hey syrup were you here for when I talked about a bank robber with a xeroc sigil tattoo getting knocked out by an old lady?

[wanton pendant]

I'll put that down as Batman scaling above the old lady from Madagascar.

[warm gull]

very interesting first sentence to read during my peak into lore discussion

[abstract carbon]

What importance does cate have to the lore?

Call apon the eggs

[wanton pendant]

'Cate'?

What are you talking about?

[robust osprey]

Call upon the eggs

[robust osprey]

its like roxcalibur

but replace rock with egg

infernum weapon

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, what are you talking about?

There's nothing like that in Calamity.

[abstract carbon]

I didn't know it was infernum

[robust osprey]

no wwg you dont understand infernum is canon to calamity

infernum is base calamity actually

[abstract carbon]

Infernum has no lore

[wanton pendant]

Well if it's from Infernum then the relevance is less than nothing as Infernum doesn't even pretend to abide by Calamity lore.

[abstract carbon]

Wdym?

[wanton pendant]

I really don't know how else I could phrase that.

[abstract carbon]

In what way

I mean

[wanton pendant]

Infernum does not care about lore.

What else is there to say?

[robust osprey]

yeah infernum has dog literally eating provi

and as we all know dog is too much of a fraud to do that

[timber glacier]

Infernum also has like the dead ninja in king slime fight you which like idk if that really at all would make lore sense

[sinful adder]

Everything added by infernum contradicts calamity lore

It is a separate thing

It should not be called calamity

Well ok not necessarily contradicts

[craggy sparrow]

Infernum is an addon mod

[sinful adder]

But it's not part of the real story

[craggy sparrow]

for calamity

every addon mod is non canon

[sinful adder]

Yes

[timber glacier]

Not everything but like thats because it os an addon mod for calamity the additions obviously wouldn’t be canon

[sinful adder]

Infernum touches the lore by adding new structures and biomes and such, those things don't exist in real calamity

[abstract carbon]

Isn't profained garden infernum only?

[wanton pendant]

Yes?

[abstract carbon]

Idk what is or isn't infernum other than weapons

[wanton pendant]

Did you not play Calamity before Infernum?

[timber glacier]

I do really hate how like so often it seems like people describe the calamity addons as “calamity dlc” which like kinds of suggests its like just more official content but like no they are like not actually part of the “complete calamity experience” outside of exclusively vanilla calamity mod music which is officially part of the mod but still seperate

[timber glacier]

Infernum mod does have a wiki which does say everything it adds

[abstract carbon]

Umm 👉👈

[timber glacier]

Also random thing was bereft vassal entirely original to ingernum or are they based on a character who was like in calamity lore. Like I know bereft vassal isn’t canon but I do remember hearing something about like them being based on like someone who was like known to be from illmeris or something idk

[wanton pendant]

Made up for Infernum.

I don't think they'd want Argus and Agnus to be two unrelated characters officially.

[robust osprey]

what if bereft is Yhorm the Castaway