lore-discussion

[long bloom]

the only guy in history to actually revive something
and it's the fucking skele merchant

peak

[plucky juniper]

why not have some historical figures that are just known to be goated compared today

[raven brook]

hes a random wandering npc that sells you stuff he's not particularly important and dosen't need some huge explanation for why he's like that

[wanton pendant]

I mean technically Tax Collector...

[raven brook]

he can just be kept a mystery and people can make headcanons for why dude is like that

[timber glacier]

He was the first necromancy made thing so he got conciousness but hes so greedy there was none left for the other undead

[wanton pendant]

Shakidou.

[west plume]

her necromantic creations aren't animate unless she wills them to be

[plucky juniper]

we dont talk about em

[raven brook]

they them kris gif

[wanton pendant]

Pronouns...

[heavy sail]

fair enough
(side note there's not, like, beef between the fables team and the og calamity devs is there? because i adore both. it's like a two cakes thing for me. i wanna play and support both)

[plucky juniper]

no reason really

[wanton pendant]

The enemy was slain.

[raven brook]

as far as i know quite a few calamity devs like fables

i don't know much else

[plucky juniper]

especially when, yknow, the source of the divide being

[long bloom]

the Horse

[plucky juniper]

the guy that got fucking kicked out of the mod he made because he was doubly both transphobic and a creep

[eager bluff]

if there is its on a personal level between individual devs and not a raaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh i hate this thing conceptually

[timber glacier]

Fables is made by a bunch of ex cal devs so like they don’t like hate eachother iirc

[heavy sail]

ah, gotcha. and fab is gone so yeah

[raven brook]

i wouldn't speak on how people i don't know personally view eachother because it is not my place to do so

[plucky juniper]

like everyone here with a spine, no matter what, agrees that fabsol was a liability and a fool

[raven brook]

but i do know that again quite a few cal devs like fables

and i think they also share a few staff members between themselves like rover

[sinful adder]

I will say

[wanton pendant]

I never played Fables.

[long bloom]

so she's also controlling the sepulcher and the soul seekers the entire time while also beating your ass??
that's some insane concentration

[eager bluff]

rover is actually not a dev

[sinful adder]

I recognized fab as being shitty years ago

[raven brook]

thanks for letting us know wwg

[wanton pendant]

She has two hands.

[sinful adder]

And I got warned like 4 times for calling it out

[wanton pendant]

One for shooting you, the other for puppeting the thing.

[long bloom]

still a staff member

[eager bluff]

they were i think actually the first to leave in 22

[long bloom]

he's a server admin still

[plucky juniper]

lmao

[leaden bridge]

Last actually

[plucky juniper]

i still remember the day i learned that rover left in 22

[long bloom]

all 5 admins are ex-devs fun fact

[plucky juniper]

i didnt realize because he was a moderator and mod roles override the color of devs

so i had zero inkling that he wasnt until like

hang on

[wanton pendant]

Defeat all of them to unlock the Broom Closet Update.

[eager bluff]

honestly i never realized rover WAS a dev

[west plume]

a new record!!

[long bloom]

he literally made 2 music tracks

[eager bluff]

ok but so did pinpinneon and i dont think they were ever a calmain dev

[long bloom]

sources say they were

rainbow party cannon is their dev item iirc

[plucky juniper]

thats pinkie?

[heavy sail]

i highly recommend it! there's only like, 15% of what calamity has so far, but what is there is gorgeous and really fun
sir nautilus is a really charming character, i'm very excited to see how they handle more npcs going forward because there is so much personality packed into that little skelefish

[long bloom]

✅

[leaden bridge]

Rover was a dev yes

[heavy sail]

anyway, phew. i'm glad to see the two calamities aren't sworn enemies

[raven brook]

fables is a very wholesome mod. very glugtastic

[leaden bridge]

They were in the server, they had the role

[long bloom]

[heavy sail]

unrelated topic: what the hell is yharim's beef with lizhards?? is he just racist??

[agile matrix]

i like fables. i will play fables when it gets content to moonlord

[long bloom]

yes

[timber glacier]

Yes

[heavy sail]

okay, checks out

[agile matrix]

indeed!

you're gonna find that a lot of the problems in this mod can be solved by yharim/yharon/the dragons not being racist

[raven brook]

I feel like the subtext is pretty clear that he looks down on them and sees them as pathethic because they're not only god worshippers, but god worshippers that are so desperate for a deity that abandoned them that they make a simulacrum of a god to worship

[timber glacier]

Also isn’t it like canon according to redigit that lihzarhds are allergic to bees right so yharim might hate them because of that since hes a big bee fan

[raven brook]

So he just sees them as utterly pathethic

[plucky juniper]

LMAO?

[long bloom]

flanderization unfortunately

[plucky juniper]

thats so hilarious lmao

[timber glacier]

No yharim is totally a big bee fan

[eager bluff]

anything according to redigit is 90% of the time a shitpost

[raven brook]

if a lihzahrd wasn't part of the jugnle temple's culture and joined yharim's army he'd probably be ok with that

its one of the good ones

[wanton pendant]

Other ten percent is boulders.

[raven brook]

i do like to headcanon that not all lihzahrds come from the temple anyways

and that there are other populations of the species outside of the heartlands

[timber glacier]

I think like red was asked why the witch doctor only moves in after queen bee and thought that them beeing allergic would work or something

[raven brook]

similarly to not how all fish people come from illmeris and "illmeran" is more of a ethnicity than species

[long bloom]

true

[wanton pendant]

They're just the real freaks of the race who all live in one building underground and the rest of them all think what the hell is wrong with them.

[raven brook]

They locked themselves inside of a building after their god left them to isolate themselves in worship of a false idol and then they went insane. funniest shit ive ever seen. im insane lizard rick

[leaden bridge]

yharim loves bees it's a defining character trait come on

[heavy sail]

that tracks. i wonder if permafrost or someone ever tried to suggest he get the lihzahrds on his side, build solidarity over how their goddess failed them, inspire them to reject worship, and he shot the idea down because he thought they were just too pathetic

[timber glacier]

Hear me out have yharim use a tweaked queen bee ai I’m cooking

[long bloom]

sounds cool

[plucky juniper]

if dia didnt leave we might have gotten a set of ravager-worshipping lizhards in the underworld btw

[timber glacier]

Those silly reptiles, don’t they realise ravager is kill

[long bloom]

boaring myself

[timber glacier]

Thats really cool as an idea

But also like they could also be something else as well

[plucky juniper]

also real talk who the hell was the god that the lihzards worshipped before they (the former) left

[long bloom]

implied to be silva

[timber glacier]

Aren’t they supposedly female or something

[plucky juniper]

i dont see it ngl

[timber glacier]

Also isn’t it like a god related to the sun or something

[raven brook]

Does anything say it was a goddess

explicitly

[long bloom]

golem bestiary specifies it was a goddess

[raven brook]

becasue if so yeah then i assume its just silva

[wanton pendant]

Yeah.

[eager bluff]

the vernal pass is right nearby too so like

[raven brook]

This is aura

[wanton pendant]

They live next door to Silvaville.

[raven brook]

Wish it could've b ecome real

I mean hey if Dia gives the devs permission to and they're willing, maybe it still could

Expanding on vanilla elements to fit with calamity's narrative like thta is always cool

Like the Lihzahrds or Martians

or how tobias's polter design was gonna have armor variants

based of the dungeon's factions

[long bloom]

true!

[raven brook]

I don't think that design was scrapped so that might still probably happen

[long bloom]

still planned afaik

yeag

[raven brook]

yeh

[plucky juniper]

i think calamity ought to focus a little more on the fact that it's ultimately a terraria mod and should expand on terraria stuff

[timber glacier]

I kinda feel like it would be cool if like the remains of agnus’ followers were like a bunch of different species since like Idk it feels like he would like adopt stray people or something

[plucky juniper]

like i get that you want to have a much more interesting and better connected world that isnt as simple as terraria's lore

that is unless you want cheese to have an easier time making RoY

[raven brook]

please

[wanton pendant]

Not the goal, not was it really ever the goal.

[raven brook]

thats not a goal

calamity lore can do its own thing while expanding on what is there in vanilla, this isnt even necessarily "it should follow terraria lore"

because no i dont think it should cuz terraria lore isnt real

but this sort of thing like the blood lihzhards is good and cool and expands on terraria elements from an artistic point of view

rather than kinda just discarding them and not doing much with em

tl;dr wwg is stupid and dumb and i hate him still

chuddy chud chuddening

haha

[wanton pendant]

:(

[raven brook]

like really i think this is less even than it is necessarily/explicitly about writing and more just in general

[plucky juniper]

okay but in all honesty i just really dont like that calamity looked at a guy named cthulhu having living disembodied parts and decided to not do that
thats, not a point against it, but i do have to say

[wanton pendant]

Anything to deter powerscalers man.

[abstract hedge]

It's hard to expand on Terraria lore when it barely exists and the one lore document thing isn't even really that canon. Also the lore doc thing is stinky and I don't like it so it's not canon.

[west plume]

cthulhu exists separate from the canons of both terraria and calamity and we are allowed to do what we want with random eldritch beings

[timber glacier]

Cthulhu would be a lot to try and like force into the lore I feel and like moreso just using that as kind of like a moniker for dangerous things I guess works

Also like then I guess they’d count as reference and thus not be canon

[abstract hedge]

Cthulu isn't even a thing in Terraria lore it's just ml

[eager bluff]

cthulhu when why the fuck did they call it that sob

[west plume]

also yeah i dont see any reason we need to follow the crowdsourced lore doc and flavor bestiary entries

[eager bluff]

why was cthulhu ever in vanilla

[plucky juniper]

there's guys named eye of cthulhu

[timber glacier]

Because it sounded cool

[raven brook]

there's eye of chtulhu and brain of chtulhu but i mean even in vanilla itself, those bosses exist without any sort of npc or boss actually called "chtulhu"

i still like to headcanon that the terraria just. calls them that

[abstract hedge]

And the true eyes of cthulu are the eyes of a character that's not named cthulu...

[light linden]

moon lord

[raven brook]

he read about chtulhu in some book was like

ahhhh

[timber glacier]

Also moon lord is basically just cthulhu he literally has the “true eyes of cthulhu”

[raven brook]

scary eyeball

[light linden]

moon lord is cthulhu

[west plume]

i dont think we should be bound by a what bunch of nerds in r/terraria discord circa 2019 said the story of the game is

[eager bluff]

moon lord is moon lord

[light linden]

in vanilla at least

[wanton pendant]

And a cultist.

[abstract hedge]

Bestiary entries and stuff are fine imo cause they're actually in game and also give so little information that they just don't affect lore or anything at all.

[timber glacier]

Moon lord is cthulhu’s brother steve

[heavy sail]

that reminds me of a random headcanon i have about the continent of Telma, which is supposed to be where the goblins and permafrost are from. i think that Telma is place with a whole bunch of different fantasy humanoids and cultures living together alongside humans. lihzahrds, goblins, dwarves like the demolitionist, maybe even demons. and it has a slightly more classic fantasy vibe to it- albiet, with a whole bunch of mysterious machines built by a certain robot we know and love scattered around

[raven brook]

like you know how you can say "devilspawn" as a pejorative term

[plucky juniper]

but like what im saying is

[raven brook]

like similar scenario with the ctulhu stuff

[plucky juniper]

even putting aside law of fairness lore

[raven brook]

i dont think its literally from chtulhu hp lovecraft mythos real life real

we're just calling that cuz its scary and evil and bad and the terrarian

[plucky juniper]

the game has bosses named after cthulhu

[wanton pendant]

Well evidence points to demons not playing nice with other races.

[plucky juniper]

and theres a squid-faced big eldritch dude thats its final boss, and he summons true eyes of cthulhu

[wanton pendant]

And probably other places had lots of variety before the incident.

[raven brook]

chutlhu could also be another name for moonlord for certain cultures, given neither fovos or moon lord is really a real name to begin with

[plucky juniper]

its not hard to just easily extrapolate, "Cthulhu's been sealed away like in his og story, and some of his bodyparts have reanimated"

[wanton pendant]

Its real name?
Steve, again, screw you.

[west plume]

the context of lovecraft does not fit in calamity or terraria. having lovecraft or his characters exist in either world would be an anachronism and the game doesnt have the prerequisite structure for outer gods to exist or be acknowledged

[plucky juniper]

also ya i dont mind if moon lord isnt literally cthulhu

but what i mean is

[timber glacier]

[plucky juniper]

IT'S AN ADAPTATION

of course the context doesnt fit

but thats what the guys who made the game decide to do

[timber glacier]

Steve, fovos, moon lord and cthulhu could all just be different names for the same entity in calamity lore pr stuff

[plucky juniper]

wait am i being hypocritical?

what the fuck?

[west plume]

y r we, as people who r not relogic employees, bound to it and what do you think it would improve to capitulate

[raven brook]

it mostly boils down to a personal choice by the writers to not have characters or elements from other media within the mod's narrative. i think you can headcanon that chtulhu is an name gien to ml in some cultures or that the terrarian just calls the big scawry things of chthuhlu because why not theyre big and scary

[heavy sail]

i like the idea of someone asking your character why they call it "the eye of cthulhu" and them responding with, "oh, it's from a famous story i know called the Call of Cthulhu. it was written by a guy with a lot of anxiety who was also really racist."
"i heard that in a place called the Constant, they call it the Eye of Terror!"

[plucky juniper]

anyhow putting aside whether ml should literally be cthulhu or not

[timber glacier]

The terrarian is actually a big lovecraft fan and wanted to call it that cos they felt like it

[plucky juniper]

i do fuck with the idea of a "dead" eldritch god still being a problem becuase his eyes keep reanimating and ruining peoples days

[wanton pendant]

"Nice looking sword."
"Thanks, it's from Metal Gear!"
"...a metal gear made that sword?"

[raven brook]

i think the existence of the "fovos" name and the fact it's the only calamity-original name for ml makes it feel more like a "real" name than it actually is, since much like moon lord itself, it's just a moniker given to the creature by specific cultures

[heavy sail]

so you're telling me a shrimp fried this rice?

[west plume]

acknowledging anything about cthulhu in game means acknowledging that european whiteness exists in the context of calamity since basically all of his work was about his fear of minorities and poor white people

[raven brook]

so my suggestion is that we need like 10 other moon lord names

thanks for reading

[west plume]

including call of cthulhu

[west plume]

yes

[wanton pendant]

Good idea.

[timber glacier]

Make him refered to as the apocalyptic kraken or somethinh in like a lore thing

[eager bluff]

apocalypse squid

[wanton pendant]

Every city should have their own name for it that drifted over the last 850 years so it's not even the same name as their historical records use.

[timber glacier]

“The second most evil thing on the moon”

[eager bluff]

like apocalypse bird but its 3 squids instead of 3 birds

[timber glacier]

Whats apocalypse bird

[raven brook]

lobcorp

[eager bluff]

lobotomy corporation abnormality

[wanton pendant]

One of them should be 'Daymos' just to mess with people.

[timber glacier]

Daedalus armour actually also is referring to him too totally

[west plume]

mermaids exist in terraria so we have to reference the shadow over innsmouth, a book about how ugly and smelly lovecraft found poor coastal people

this is totally consistent and desired

[wanton pendant]

When will Calamity acknowledge the fact that Terraria is a sequel to Mario, which is also a sequel to Half-Life?

[abstract hedge]

Also his fear of air conditioning

[cosmic zenith]

Lovecraft or his characters existing would be far from the first anachronism lol
If I correctly interpreted what you're insinuating, the game is drowning in anachronisms

[west plume]

yeah

but we can write most of them off at least

lovecraft only really exists in the context of the 20th century

[plucky juniper]

hmm

hang on, wouldn't names like "Ares" be acknowledging that Spartan ideals somewhat exist?

[cosmic zenith]

That said
I do not think Lovecraft should be anywhere near canon (for the already explained reasons) and the name Cthulhu could be just a silly little coincidence

[long bloom]

what if draedon just made it up

[timber glacier]

Calamity also has to fit the entirety of don’t starve together’s lore and dungeon defenders 2 lore and stardew valley lore and core keeper lore and etc since they each have characters from them make appearances in terraria (joke)

[eager bluff]

no they dont

[wanton pendant]

And not the hoplites?

[bright phoenix]

Really shitty doodle cuz I was bored thinkin about how silvabloom could be themed
No clue how to draw details on it while keeping it simple enough to imagine the pixel sprite version, and also drawing a terrarian while maintaining sprite proportions feels cursed so I didn’t bother with legs

Colors are a bit off but I think this is how all 3 elements could work together

[cosmic zenith]

Crossover content isn't canon

[eager bluff]

those things are entirely ignored they dont exist

[long bloom]

that's the joke i think

[west plume]

i think a random civilization having warrior gods isn't too anachronistic

[timber glacier]

Wait hold on this is fire

[timber glacier]

Yes it was

[raven brook]

Yeah that's what i was trying to get accross

the name chtulhu can still exist in the context of calamity

it can just have a different origin over literaly HP Lovecraft book Chtulhu Mythos

[bright phoenix]

But I’m hoping it like delivers the vision of how a sprite could look, I think the combo would be fire

[long bloom]

like how lego ninjago has a michael jackson reference for some reason but that doesn't mean he exists

[cosmic zenith]

Ultimately, the degree of damage or incoherence an anachronism represents (or even how much of an anachronism it is) really depends on what you took that content away from and where you inserted it

[raven brook]

You can adapt things under a different context so they make sense within that new context

[heavy sail]

new calamity lore challenge: the party girl mentions sweden. canonize sweden! make it fit!

[timber glacier]

That image… nostalgia

[long bloom]

[west plume]

tiyuri cthulhu is awesome

[wanton pendant]

Sweden is actually the name of the city Yharim is from.

[plucky juniper]

okay sure my strawman sucked so badly a crow could just use it as battle practice but i just dont really like this

[eager bluff]

thats just the city permafrost is from

[timber glacier]

No sweden is clearly actually crossover content with minecraft so its not canon

[long bloom]

[cosmic zenith]

Tesla is widely used as a "electricity" word as a reference to irl Nikola Tesla, but it's technically reasonable that a person named Tesla canonically was involved with scientific progress in the field of electrodynamics

[plucky juniper]

like i never fucking said "there should be european whiteness if you insist on cthulhu being a thing"

[wanton pendant]

John Tesla is real.

[long bloom]

this is confirmed in a vanilla bestiary entry

[eager bluff]

and is also apparently popular with the martians

[long bloom]

telsa turret i think

[plucky juniper]

you kinda just shoved that in as a counterpoint

[west plume]

you can't have lovecraft without the 20th century fears because eldritch beings don't really exist outside of it. terraria is a fantasy world where things like the Eye of Cthulhu aren't eldritch and not otherworldly

our eldritch beings are closer to the distortion creatures

[eager bluff]

yeap

[west plume]

mostly noxus and fovos

fovos being our adaptation of cthulhu without anachronism

[plucky juniper]

.

[west plume]

cthulhu specifically is inseparable from that unless you just use him as a silly icon

if we exclude lovecraft's racism then we can't actually make anything about him eldritch or reference/adapt cthulhu's lore

or talk about outer gods at all

[plucky juniper]

i (partly) said "I personally kinda wish the 'Moon Lord having reanimated pieces of himself be bosses in their own right throughout the game before you fight him' wasn't tossed away from calamity lore"

[west plume]

Moon Lord/Fovos can do this. I do not know about associating Moon Lord/Fovos with a real world property written in real world context like Cthulhu

[wanton pendant]

Granted: Slime God rematch.

[plucky juniper]

HELL YEAH

[cedar path]

Lovecraftian/cosmic horror is about the fear of the unknown and of insignificance, you can absolutely isolate that from the guys racism (wether you should or not is a different convo idc to get into)

[bright phoenix]

Absolutely yes
A friend was running a Pokémon themed ttrpg and I made my fucking Pokémon trainer Vergil from devil may cry and rewrote his entire backstory into a 10 page document justifying why he’s an asshole Pokémon trainer now instead of a demon guy who wants more power(ful pokemon) and it worked really well and it was so fuvking stupid

Anything can fit in any context if you try hard enough

[cosmic zenith]

I'd say cosmic horror is separable, but Lovecraft's rendition isn't

[heavy sail]

that reminds of how the music that plays in the lil workshop he has in WotG is called Svalbard, and how i think that's funny because of the party girl line and permy saying he thinks he's bad at parties. "the only think i think i'm good for at the events is making ice cubes and slushies." so why does his old house have a song named after a place in sweden?? checkmate, moonburn!

[cosmic zenith]

Even then you'd have to ignore the origins of cosmic horror as a genre (?) and go straight to its conceptual traits

[sinful adder]

Real life svalbard isn't in Sweden it's a tiny island in the middle of the arctic

I think

Maybe there's two svalbards

[plucky juniper]

svalbard is actually territorially part of Norway

[west plume]

the fear of the unknown and of insignificance doesn't exist without the racism aspect. we literally cannot make you fear the unknown if you do not feel there is anything to fear from things you do not understand

the closest we did with this was kind of with astral's vague color out of space theming

[heavy sail]

huh. well i guess that proves i'm bad at geography

[eager bluff]

its about halfway between norway and the arctic

[sinful adder]

I disagree. You can fear things that are unknown for non racism reasons.

[cedar path]

Insane take? You can def fear the unknown and not be racist like what???

[abstract hedge]

Isn't Svalbard owned by Norway?

[west plume]

what's there to fear about the unknown. i want you to list what is scary about the unknowable and alien

[sinful adder]

your fear can come from knowing something is dangerous but not knowing enough to be able to deal with the threat

[plucky juniper]

cosmic horror is popular because, quite frankly, it speaks to a lot of people

[sinful adder]

How do I explain this better

[heavy sail]

i don't know how much i completely agree with that, but i understand feeling uncomfortable associating calamity with lovecraft

[plucky juniper]

see: fucking volcanoes

[cedar path]

What you do not know or recognize could easily hurt you

[abstract hedge]

You don't know how it'll behave, you don't know if it's dangerous or not, etc.

[sinful adder]

It's slightly different because the fear isn't necessarily automatic

[west plume]

you do not see how any of these are prejudiced assumptions..?

[abstract hedge]

Lots of fear could definitely be related to racism but I don't think racism is the only reason people fear anything.

[long bloom]

it's literally just human psychology

lizard brain

[bright phoenix]

I wouldn’t say so, because cosmic horror is something on a cosmic scale, not just that it’s unknown but that it’s vast, far deeper than you could ever imagine, something so primordial that you are like a speck to it

[sinful adder]

Nope. Not an assumption. Different thing

[cedar path]

Fear of the ocean? Unknown. Fear of space? Unknown. How is that prejudiced in any way?

[plucky juniper]

suspiciously relevant volcano fact:
The Klamath Native Americans of Oregon inhabited a region near Mount Mazama for at least 10,000 years. They in fact, have been able to recall the colossal VEI-7 caldera-forming eruption of Mazama that occured 7,700 years ago, through a legend regarding a great battle between Llao and his rival Skell.

Apparently, the native populations around this region in general culturally refused to look towards Crater Lake (the lake), and the Klamath themselves believed that just looking at Mazama would cause death.

According to Wikipedia, some Native Americans still refuse to look at the water.

[sinful adder]

Consider knowing enough to know something is dangerous but not knowing literally anything else about it

[plucky juniper]

why am i dropping this volcano fact?

[sinful adder]

that's why cosmic horror works without racism

[bright phoenix]

Yes

[plucky juniper]

because like, it's a huge fucking eruption that obliterated a whole mountain

and probably killed a lot of people who got unlucky to be in the vicinity

[abstract hedge]

Does being scared of a weird tentacle creature that might be dangerous or hostile with no way of you knowing make you prejudiced?

[bright phoenix]

I’d compare cosmic horror to something more akin to fear of a natural disaster, or fear of something much, much greater

[plucky juniper]

note how in the myth i provided, it's attributed to godly figures fighting stuff

[sinful adder]

Cosmic horror can be "bad shit happened that we have no idea how to understand" not "this is bad exclusively because we don't understand it"

[plucky juniper]

YEA

[heavy sail]

the unknown doesn't have to be people who are different then you, it could be the possibility of a portal to somewhere dangerous hiding somewhere. i mean i guess if you're afraid of big scary sea monsters, it could be because the sea monsters are different than you, but it could also be that they might eat you. or just that they might know something about the world that would break your mind if you knew

[abstract hedge]

Like we're not talking about people we're talking about inscrutible things we can't understand and could easily wipe us out if they wanted to.

[sinful adder]

Yeah. Imagine encountering a brand new natural disaster you've never heard of

It's like that

[heavy sail]

that's a good way of putting it!

[west plume]

what's to be actually scared of with a weird tentacle creature. are you scared of cephalopods? would a large cuttlefish scare you?

[plucky juniper]

natural disasters of huge scales like volcanoes and tornadoes absolutely evoke an near-identical feeling to seeing a fucking giant monstrosity that you have no chance of blowing dealing with

[plucky juniper]

YES I WOULD BE FUCKING SCARED OF A GIANT CUTTLEFISH

[long bloom]

human nature is to be cautious of new things because quite a lot of stuff in nature can easily kill you

[plucky juniper]

do you even know how crazy they can get

[long bloom]

notably animals the same size or bigger than humans

[heavy sail]

in any case, i totally get not wanting to associate calamity with lovecraft stuff

[plucky juniper]

if there was one that was big enough to eat me i would not want to go into the ocean ever

[west plume]

why

[long bloom]

.

[plucky juniper]

fear of the unknown is a general thing

[sinful adder]

The part to be scared of is that it just started attacking someone

[leaden bridge]

I think i would be scared of most giant animals and the less distinctly cute and mammalian probably more because they are unknowable to me because it's harder to tell what a giant cuttlefish is feeling

[sinful adder]

Also animals are generally dangerous when large so it is a safe assumption that a giant squid creature is potentially dangerous

[heavy sail]

https://tenor.com/view/cattle-fish-fish-gif-9123734

i wouldn't! la creatura

[plucky juniper]

we are going to fear unfamiliar stuff, whether that is a giant explosion (volcanic eruption) or a weird looking guy i dont know

[heavy sail]

but i'm also stupid and i thought svalbard was in sweden

[eager bluff]

theres like a very specific range of animals i Don't find freaky in some way or another so i personally would be scared of most things

[west plume]

the issue is you are including the weird looking guy you don't know alongside the actually deadly natural disaster

which is why cosmic horror is inherently about prejudice

[sinful adder]

I will say there is one difference
Lovecraft believed that it was impossible for humanity to handle these differences but he was actually just built stupid. Once you understand the thing, you don't have to fear it anymore

[plucky juniper]

im including it to show the range of what we fear

we do not only fear each other

[cosmic zenith]

Yeah there's a lot to cause humans fear especially because it is not an entirely rational phenomenon, as evidenced by racism
I personally think it would not have found the traction and footing it did without its context of prejudice, though

[plucky juniper]

is this hard enough to not get to your mind

[bright phoenix]

Sometimes you can still know a ton about the cosmic entity and still be afraid of it too, it’s an inevitability, a grand phenomenon that is beyond your control and inevitable

[abstract hedge]

Don't cuttlefish have giant beaks or something? A giant one could probably mess me up if it wanted to.
Being afraid of things you don't know or understand is reasonable, and by "know or understand" I don't mean people of a different skin color I mean gigantic things that somehow live in space and are indescribable. Lovecraft was racist as hell but being scared of the unknown isn't racist, it's just having a survival instinct imo.

[cedar path]

You can seperate the two! Being scared of a gigantic underwater creatuee that can break my brain isnt the same as being racist

[cosmic zenith]

Seeing an evil cuttlefish won't get you writing about a slumbering cosmic cuttlefish that commands all reality

[bright phoenix]

I’d say a real life cosmic horror example is if the sun turned into a red giant today

[plucky juniper]

alright, enough fucking talk

[sinful adder]

I think you're misunderstanding. Cosmic horror can work if the deadly natural disaster is combined with the unknown thing. That's the situation when it makes sense. Lovecraft was stupid and evil because he saw it the same way when they were separated

[cedar path]

Thank you, very well put

[tribal spade]

i named it as such because svalbard has an arctic seed vault

[heavy sail]

i think it's a wonderful virtue to learn to love that which you fear. acknowledge it's different and scary and be curious instead of letting the fear drive you to hatred.

[plucky juniper]

you, assuming you are a not-racist guy, would probably be equally existentially horrified by a giant space monster previously unknown to science attacking earth as a KKK supporter

[eager bluff]

holy shit moonburn appearance

[tribal spade]

and its funny because it has the seed frozen inside it

[heavy sail]

oh cool!

[tribal spade]

its like an arctic seed vault

[cosmic zenith]

It preserves seeds....?

[leaden bridge]

In the big vault

[bright phoenix]

Cosmic horror I do think has plenty to love. It’s mysterious and terrifying but that makes it so interesting to learn about. We are afraid of the unknown, yes, but we are also ever curious to explore it.

[west plume]

humans have guns. several people around you probably have guns and have probably thought about killing people before. are you scared of your neighbors?

[west plume]

that's like actually deadly. that is something you know is deadly and it has been studied to be deadly. it is not incomprehensible or beyond human scope in nature

[plucky juniper]

yea so in wotg you collect seeds in order to be able to fight the giant dying god from another universe whose trying to hollow out yours

[tribal spade]

none of it makes any sense in the context of calamity it was just tied in that way and thats part of why its being remade entirely

[long bloom]

yes, because i live in redneckville

[sinful adder]

Actually hold on

[tribal spade]

eventually wotg will have no ties to calamity at all other than like, progression compatibility

[sinful adder]

Play Look Outside right now

[bright phoenix]

It is beyond the human scope and I say this as an example because I mentioned earlier cosmic horror doesn’t have to be strictly unknown to be cosmic and horrifying in scale

[plucky juniper]

it is horrifying because what do you mean the sun just RAPIDLY IS BALLOONING INTO A FLAMING BALL and we're all gonna fucking die

[sinful adder]

You will see cosmic horrors where spooky alien creatures that want to kill you and spooky alien creatures that can be your friend both exist in the same setting

[plucky juniper]

cosmic horror is better if you understand the point is that you cant do shit about the problem

[west plume]

do you think thermonuclear weapons are cosmic horror?

[leaden bridge]

i am very scared of people in my city for a lot of very classist reasons i have to work through but I don't think that's the same kind of fear at all i would feel if there was a giant cuttlefish outside

[abstract hedge]

No because I know them and they're people that act rationally and probably wouldn't randomly decide to shoot me (also afaik none of them have guns). I would however be a bit scared if I ran into one while they were open carrying or something.. A cosmic horror isn't a person, sure it could be harmless, but the worry is if it isn't, since you don't know anything about it and probably can't really stop is.

[bright phoenix]

EXACTLY!!

[cedar path]

The scary part is not knowing when/why the giant space thing kills me

[heavy sail]

oh they totally are.

[plucky juniper]

@west plume i think you need to read cosmic horror novels

[long bloom]

yes

[bright phoenix]

I think Fear of the Unknown and Cosmic Horror are different things, and Cosmic horror can DRAW on it because it revolves around the vastness of things at a cosmic scale, but that is not the ONLY aspect in which cosmic horror manifests

[abstract hedge]

As far as I know thermonuclear weapons aren't from space and are also entirely explainable. They are still very scary, they're just not cosmic horrors.

[plucky juniper]

and also

[eager bluff]

the inevitability or inability to do anything about it is where most horror comes from for me (on top of also just being freaked out by a lot of stuff to do with body plan and shape and movement)

[abstract hedge]

Cosmic horror is really just fear of the unknown + fear of the uncontrollable + (usually) space, and nuclear weapons are only really one of those, since they're uncontrollable (to the average person) but not unexplainable and have nothing to do with space.

[cosmic zenith]

Can everyone explain their personal concepts of what cosmic horror is?

[cedar path]

Space is unfamothably big and full of weird, fucked up things that can and will fuck you up, without your control or ability to predict them, nothing you can do about it, also some of those things might already be on Earth, close to home

[violet sparrow]

thats regular horror

[bright phoenix]

No because they are manufactured and controlled by people, but they draw on a similar fear. If there was a ball of thermonuclear weapons in space that slingshot around our planet and we had no control over and couldn’t do anything about and could case the world to burn any day, then I’d say it’d be scary on a cosmic level

[long bloom]

i think this but it doesn't necessarily have to be from space

just a similar scale

[cedar path]

Yes hence the close to home part

[eager bluff]

(just to be clear i dont interact with horror genres if i can avoid it so all of this is off very limited experiences with horror)

[heavy sail]

for what it's worth, i think wotg is pretty cool in the context of calamity because you've got auric gods and how they work, and all this cool stuff and all this drama playing out over eons... and then you have god gods. things so beyond that they aren't even in the same art style. but also yeah i can see how disconnected that actually is, good luck with the remake!

[west plume]

it was unexplainable to the ant walkers who had to walk in lines behind their melting and dismembered neighbors

[abstract hedge]

For me it's a force or being (usually from space) that can't really be controlled, is at least partially unknowable, and comes from or is related to space.

[west plume]

i think that's a p bad comparison

[violet sparrow]

yes but we're not them?

p poor taste to misattribute that

[sinful adder]

A thermonuclear weapon you know about is regular horror. Seeing a mushroom cloud on the horizon when you've never heard of a thermonuclear weapon is cosmic horror

[west plume]

i don't think you understand my point or get me

[eager bluff]

much like all horror it is entirely subjective to your experiences

[bright phoenix]

Cosmic horror can also be scary because space is unfathomably big, and what if, in all the universe that exists, there is nothing out there? That we are the only ones, and in all of the known and unknown to ever exist, there is only us? That is also terrifying at a cosmic level.

[violet sparrow]

they answered whether or not they thought thermonuclear weapons were cosmic horror and you went "oh yeah, i bet the victims of the bombs thought it was"

?

[west plume]

that was not my response

[eager bluff]

if im the cosmic horror thing then i will not be cosmically horrified by my existence or interactions with other stuff because thats just every day

[abstract hedge]

They were in a major war with a world power that had been actively bombing their cities, it's a safe assumption that a city being annihilated is related to that. Also has nothing to do with space so it's not cosmic horror.

[sinful adder]

No, that's the stupid kind of horror where you can just be built different and not care

[heavy sail]

i hope i didn't contribute to a heated argument... or that people aren't actually made here. it feels like people are mad

[bright phoenix]

[cosmic zenith]

Consider: existential horror is a thing

[bright phoenix]

Okay what if you were trapped out there though

And earth exploded

[violet sparrow]

you probably die slowly

[bright phoenix]

And there was only you on the shuttle

[heavy sail]

anyway uh. play slay the princess for some cosmic/existential horror, and a love story

[bright phoenix]

Staring out into the vast darkness of space

[eager bluff]

if i can generally comprehend the cosmic horror entity then i will usually not be cosmically horrified i can be horrified yes but usually not in the cosmic sense

[heavy sail]

also i don't feel comfortable bringing up actual real world atrocities...

[violet sparrow]

yeah that wasnt exactly appropriate for this

[sinful adder]

Cosmic horror is regular horror you can't understand. Some cosmic horror is only horror to people who are stupid and evil.

[west plume]

horror is ultimately based on reality and i was bringing up an experience that happened in real life where the threat was existential and unexplainable; without acknowledgement of reality there isn't really any horror to be had

i do not see why it is inappropriate

[abstract hedge]

Also I feel like this conversation has nothing to do with the original idea now, it's not even about "cosmic horror is racist" anymore.

[west plume]

i feel like i am being misunderstood a little

[cedar path]

Is this fear racist, yes or no?

[violet sparrow]

wha

oh right

[plucky juniper]

okay.

cosmic horror requires framing.

in this case, it is the idea that there are unfathomably powerful... things, living or not, that you cannot comprehend and cant really do anything about.

bringing up the crater lake example, a sufficiently large and destructive volcanic eruption that utterly devastates its surroundings, can feel like a cosmic horror story if you have no clue that the mountain was a volcano and what a volcano even is.

nowadays, we understand what a volcano is, we have a whole scientific field dedicated to studying these things. we can explain why some volcanoes erupt flowing runny lava instead of explosively erupting.

[west plume]

you aren't describing cosmic horror here more than just the general fear of weird outer space phenomena/aliens

[tribal spade]

i think the gods thing can still be portrayed independently of calamity ultimately, theres like no reason for wotg to be tied in with calamity's story as is, it can work independently

like a parallel story arc

[plucky juniper]

so while we do fear volcanoes, and rightfully so in many occasions, we don't really have much of a cosmic horror story about them

[heavy sail]

yee, i agree

[plucky juniper]

except for say, the fact that supervolcanoes and flood basalts exists

[sinful adder]

I think this is the problem. To us, this is what cosmic horror means

[tribal spade]

though it was still based on calamity from the start so it makes sense to retain some compatibility with it

[abstract hedge]

What is cosmic horror if not horror that is cosmic?

[cedar path]

Yes that is what cosmic horror is now, since it has been divorced from Lovecrafts racism for a while

[cosmic zenith]

Syrup, I think it would be more productive if you made clear what your definition of cosmic horror is

[violet sparrow]

cosmic horror to me is both the fear of the vast unknown+understanding one's insignificance

its tied to existential horror

very very closely tied

[sinful adder]

Cosmic horror is regular horror you can't explain or understand

[cedar path]

Yes v accurate ty

[west plume]

my definition of it is tied more or less to lovecraft's corpus of work but i am unsure if other people's definitions of cosmic horror are tied to it

[plucky juniper]

now our cosmic horror stories are... well, they're cosmic, because the vastness of space is quite frankly overwhelming

[cosmic zenith]

I don't think so

[heavy sail]

(i won't lie i feel kind of uncomfortable because it's like we're arguing with the actual mod developers here and i don't want people who work on something i deeply respect to be frustrated with me or for me to be frustrated with them okay bye)

[cedar path]

Not for a few years now

Quite a few years actually

[violet sparrow]

you're free to express your opinions ❤️ dw

[cedar path]

Been a while since the two were intrincially tied

[west plume]

if you remove the minutia of cosmic horror then it becomes 'fear of the cosmos' rather than the genre's 20th century definition

[cedar path]

It is fear of the cosmos, yes

[west plume]

most cosmic horror i have read has been from lovecraft or derived from such

[light linden]

what's going on here?

[cosmic zenith]

(Oh, we won't be, don't worry about that!)

Discussing cosmic horror as a genre

[heavy sail]

okay phew

[light linden]

ah

[plucky juniper]

also, you should note that lovecraft didn't INVENT cosmic horror or the tropes that defined it

[west plume]

this is in the context of cthulhu who is a lovecraft character and exists in a lovecraft space, though

[abstract hedge]

Okay so your argument is that cosmic horror is intrinsically tied to lovecraft and lovecraft's works had some xenophobia and racism to them so cosmic horror has xenophobia and racism tied to it? If I'm getting that right?
IMO you can be inspired by someone's works without sharing their values, like say, if the sci-fi genre was pionereed by a racist, that wouldn't make sci-fi as a genre racist.

[violet sparrow]

you can say cosmic horror in a literal sense when the horror of the vast unknown/insigificance of your existence originates from a space-faring cause, but i think a lot of "cosmic horror" these days evokes those same emotions without literally coming from space

usually its the ocean lol

for similar reasons

[sinful adder]

I do have a different idea of what cosmic horror can mean: being presented with information that contradicts your understanding of cosmology in a way that is horrifying

[west plume]

Okay so your argument is that cosmic horror is intrinsically tied to lovecraft and lovecraft's works had some xenophobia and racism to them so cosmic horror has xenophobia and racism tied to it? If I'm getting that right?
a lot of lovecraft's works and the horror portrayed in them were metaphors for lovecraft's prejudiced opinions of groups of people. this includes the cthulhu mythos, especially of the great old one's cultists

[plucky juniper]

he had a lot of inspiration from prior writers like edgar allan poe and robert w. chambers.
lovecraft took his inspirations, and combined it with his existential fears (which, yes, included racism) to create his take on the cosmic horror story

[violet sparrow]

i think there's a point to saying something like cosmic horror than lovecraftian as well

because it's long since moved past just his work

[west plume]

we started this conversation off by talking about cthulhu which is why i was continuing with it

[cedar path]

Thats what ive been trying to say

[plucky juniper]

and, this is probably the most important part that syrup fundamentally refuses to comprehend

OTHER PEOPLE. WERE INSPIRED. BY LOVECRAFT.

[cosmic zenith]

I more or less tread the line between recognizing how Lovecraft conflated an eldritch unknown with his racist perspective (cultists and the fish people being the most explicit cases), and how the genre has since evolved into a rough combination of traits that emphasize human insignificance, lack of knowledge and the instinctual fear of it

[violet sparrow]

if you say "'lovecraftian horror is intrinsically tied to his prejudices" like yeah sure

but "cosmic horror is the same"?

[heavy sail]

anyway, this is how sweden exists in the context of terarria
https://www.reddit.com/r/Terraria/comments/1ng8jn8/that_one_party_girl_dialogue/

[cosmic zenith]

Cosmic horror isn't fear of the cosmos or Lovecraft's prejudice

It's both

[violet sparrow]

what

[plucky juniper]

if your (syrup) confusion stems from wikipedia calling cosmic horror "lovecraftian horror" then i think this is just wikipedia's problem and im gonna go spank someone for calling it that

[abstract hedge]

I know that part I just thought your point was that cosmic horror in general is racist because Lovecraft was and his horror was inspired by his racism, but modern cosmic horror can be derived from other things and isn't inherently racist cause the main pioneer was.

[sinful adder]

I don't think this is true anymore and we can have cosmic horror without prejudice

[cosmic zenith]

What did I say that was confusing?

[abstract hedge]

Also sorry to leave mid argument but I gotta go

[plucky juniper]

referring to syrup mb

[west plume]

i see no reason for you to keep insulting me and i have been basing my opinion off of hundreds of books i have read 👍

please stop 👍

[violet sparrow]

wdym both

[plucky juniper]

okay now you're just being annoying man

[cosmic zenith]

Can you guys please chill

[plucky juniper]

i was complaining about wikipedia calling it that

[cedar path]

Lets not resort to name calling, ye?

[violet sparrow]

also yeah that was clearly saying it was an issue on wikipedia's end

[plucky juniper]

at this point the argument is pointless

[violet sparrow]

it sounds like it

[leaden bridge]

I think it would be good to circle back on precisely the idea the fear of the unknown is something inherently prejudiced because one way or the other this is tied to modern cosmic horror too so i feel it's worth addressing

[west plume]

the implication is that i got my opinion from wikipedia and this has been further exacerbated by other comments

[plucky juniper]

we lost the plot, and i dont want to get the plot back

[cedar path]

It isnt pointless to me I love the genre and its upsetting to me when the entire thing is called prejudiced because the guy who spawned it was a huge prick

[violet sparrow]

regardless it seems like a mistake to conflate all things which label themselves under the now obviously very broad label of "cosmic horror" as "lovecraftian horror"

[cedar path]

Mrrp you are a saint

[cosmic zenith]

Cosmic horror as a genre is not a static entity, but rather a literary construct that evolved from its conception up to present day; its repertoire includes both its original form, which was strongly tied to racial prejudice, and its modern "branches", which don't necessarily maintain that trait

[magic epoch]

space scaries

[sinful adder]

People can have different ideas of what words mean and you shouldn't insult people over that no matter how annoying it is

[sinful adder]

Exactly

[violet sparrow]

oh, yeah sure

[cedar path]

The modern branches are also way, waaaay more effective at actually being scary

[magic epoch]

that feels more subjective if I were to say anything at all

[agile matrix]

isnt lovecraftian a type of cosmic

[violet sparrow]

this just looked very different

itd be better to say cosmic horror can contain both

not is

[cosmic zenith]

Well, I'm glad I was able to explain my perspective better

[agile matrix]

most lovecraftian horror is cosmic horror, but not all cosmic horror is lovecraftian

im pretty sure

[violet sparrow]

definitely not

[cedar path]

You are correct, yes

[agile matrix]

:)

[west plume]

i agree with this one, although i still strongly believe that any meaningful adaptation of cthulhu (the character) rather than cthulhu (squid monster) is tied to lovecraft and his writings

[violet sparrow]

say something like interstellar

that has elements of cosmic horror without being lovecraftian whatsoever

[violet sparrow]

of course yeah

[west plume]

the origin of the conversation was about cthulhu and his depiction in game being inaccurate to both terraria and cthulhu (the character)

[violet sparrow]

if its pulling directly from his work its gonna share elements of it and be considered similarly

[plucky juniper]

alright

the plot has come back

gimme a sec i wanna wall of text to feel good about myself

[cedar path]

Okay I was not around to see that, fair enough

[west plume]

i think the conflation of cosmic horror was due to me believing the conversation was about cthulhu and not things highly descended from cosmic horror in general

cosmic horror in general is not always based on prejudice

[violet sparrow]

well thats just a result of pop culture being warped and being misunderstood over time

i think people were saying that for a while yeah

[cosmic zenith]

Yeah

[violet sparrow]

back with the whole fear of the unknown/defining cosmic horror

[eager bluff]

waiter waiter give me an adaptation of cthulhu and hold the racism

[sinful adder]

You should all play or watch Look Outside

[cedar path]

Just wanna point out, I adore the genre and I've barely touched Lovecraft's work outside of reading synopsis

[west plume]

a pizza with nuthin

[cedar path]

Fantastic game

[eager bluff]

and the horror

[cosmic zenith]

Sometimes the line between unfaithful and alternate/revised depictions can also be really tenuous

[sinful adder]

Same

[eager bluff]

(im pretty sure there has been an adaptation of cthulhu that like entirely ditched the original storyline and was not a horror movie and it was like exactly just cthulhu is a big bad monster villain and we have to beat it and im pretty sure it was an action movie)

[sinful adder]

Yeah that misses the point... That's not even horror anymore

[violet sparrow]

ig one other thing but id also say that fear of the unknown(biological reality) and racism(social construct) really cant be completely conflated

since that felt a bit weird to leave up in the air like that

[violet sparrow]

so a godzilla flick

[cedar path]

See I agree but also I do not wanna enter that conversation at all rn

[eager bluff]

basically

[sinful adder]

Want to know something interesting about me, relating to this?

[west plume]

while they cannot be the context here is of people and the actions people (including cthulhu) take and not of random space happenings

[sinful adder]

I'm partially incapable of feeling certain kinds of fear

[cosmic zenith]

(True, but they do have an overlap - especially in the psychic aspect - that is sizeable enough to fulfill the requirements for a narrative focal point; it's just that they are separate phenomena and it's important to stress that fear of the unknown is not a cause of racism, but rather that's what racism is excused as/what racist propaganda would have you believe in)

[violet sparrow]

I can discuss this more with you elsewhere but let’s move it out of here.

[sinful adder]

Like the part of me that is supposed to give me a bunch of adrenaline in response to immediate danger just doesn't work for certain circumstances

[violet sparrow]

It’s an important topic

[cosmic zenith]

Sure, if you have anything else to say

[sinful adder]

Actually this isn't really that relevant sorry nevermind

[cedar path]

ANYWAY lore

Yharim is actually five ducks in a trenchcoat

[light linden]

~~what's infected armor plating made of? ~~

[cedar path]

Infected plates, duh

[robust osprey]

bomb

its made out of bombs

[light linden]

[robust osprey]

and they have a 25% chance to explode when you say its name

[plucky juniper]

Cthulhu's adapted role in Terraria is a very loose adaptation, using him not as a symbol of prejudice and fear that lovecraft had a lot, but rather as a major overarching villain in the futre. When Terraria initially released, all you had was the Eye of Cthulhu and its minions. Right off the bat, Relogic uses Cthulhu as a hype feature, having the implication that "If this is Cthulhu's eyeball, then I sure as hell don't want to meet the big squid himself."
By also attaching itself to a classic symbol of fantastical fiction, Terraria also evokes the overwhelming power of a slumbering beast, which is what Cthulhu fundamentally is.

Eventually, the Twins got released but at that point they were just clearly robot replicas, no direct replication, and then later on the Crimson was released, having its counterpart to EoW be the Brain of Cthulhu, which furthered the idea that Cthulhu is a larger foe that you might worry about having to deal in the future.

Given the existence of the concept art, it's obvious that Relogic had intended to add some sort of Cthulhu-like boss, but this clearly was overhauled at least once to eventually become the Moon Lord, who indeed clearly resembles Cthulhu and has floating eyeball minions that rip out and are called TRUE Eyes of Cthulhu.

You also kill him.

That part is important because i have a feeling that Terraria isnt actually a cosmic horror story, (even if it has cosmic horror elements) and is rather understood to be an escalating power fantasy

[bright phoenix]

A bit late here but saaame
Not gonna lie I was never really interested in reading love craft, even though I adore cosmic horror inspired things, it's more about the existentialism, psychology and reality questioning aspects

[robust osprey]

moonlord is cthulhu's brother, steve

[plucky juniper]

you get better ore, kill bosses, get better loot and ore, kill stronger bosses, rinse and repeat until oops you killed a guy who might be cthulhu or something similar

In this aspect, Cthulhu cannot be perfectly adapted to be an accurate adaptation to his original story, because at the end of the day you will have to kill the fucker

[bright phoenix]

Terraria is definitely a power fantasy, what better to represent how far you've come than to kill an unknowable entity that is depicted as so all-encompassing that a simple snore ruptures societies and destroys and creates without malice or intent?

Then you just throw some nebula orbs at em boom boom

[plucky juniper]

indeed

you conquer the fucker who is supposed to be invincible

[robust osprey]

its vanilla terraria this is not that deep

[plucky juniper]

this is probably why Xeroc (and the WoTG guys that can trace their origins to him and Noxus) are intended to run against this by being actually unbeatable

[bright phoenix]

You say that but we are in the lore discussion for a terraria mod that has comically crazy lore for a block game mod

[robust osprey]

ok calamity is that deep thats true

[bright phoenix]

Remember when Calamitas was an eye of Cthulhu clone

[robust osprey]

but vanilla's kinda silly

[bright phoenix]

True

[plucky juniper]

I AM TEH VERBOSE

anyhow im done yapping about cthulhu

[robust osprey]

8/10 yap

[plucky juniper]

and how i've seen him as such in the context of terraria

[bright phoenix]

I still think it's so fucking funny that we got this whole ass mod and lore and community and crazy creations out of a bunch of harder mech boss clones

[plucky juniper]

id continue this by tying it to another older argument i was part of but im not gonna do that because it aint worth my time

[robust osprey]

a milliom gazillion worm bosses, the most popular one is the worst one of them all

(before brainstorm)

[bright phoenix]

Lmaooo

Oh right before I forget, if you like existentialism in cosmic horror, highly recommend Pathologic 2 & 3

[eternal veldt]

We need more worm bosses >:D

[robust osprey]

true

[timber glacier]

Make slime god into a worm

[bright phoenix]

Erm actually

[eternal veldt]

Next ones gonna be called sum like noxus' tapeworm or sum shi and the body deals 1k damage with all damage reduction accessories on

[bright phoenix]

There's mostly snake bosses in calamity

[eternal veldt]

They gotta make slime god good first LMAO

[robust osprey]

profaned worm

[timber glacier]

Also turn One of the profaned guardians into a worm boss but leave the other two as they are

[bright phoenix]

Anyone else make it their mission to kill aquatic scourge pre hard mode every run for fun

[eternal veldt]

:(

[timber glacier]

I did that so much like I’ve probably done more runs where I kill it pre-wof

[bright phoenix]

The fight is very shrimple I love sequence breaking

[latent bolt]

it doesnt have to be that deep, but we can have our own thoughts and ideas on how Terraria's lore is expressed in the worlds we play

[bright phoenix]

Same 💯

[timber glacier]

Also I love fighting dragonfolly pre-moon lord cos its kinda fun

[bright phoenix]

Ooh I haven't tried that yet

Any other good sequence breaks

[eternal veldt]

You can do that???

[timber glacier]

Its not too hard as dragonfolly isn’t like a major step up from moon lord

[bright phoenix]

Copper short sword supreme calamitas

[timber glacier]

Yeah all it needs is ancient manipulator, life alloy and solar fragments

[latent bolt]

it would be cool to fight retiered ravager pre-providence in the same vain tbh

[eternal veldt]

No im saving my coppershort sword run for yharim. Bro is gonna feel how to be defeated by the best sword in the game

[bright phoenix]

Respectable

[timber glacier]

True copper shortsword

[bright phoenix]

My greatest achievement was when I beat s cal on 𝓶𝓪𝓵𝓲𝓬𝓮 𝓶𝓸𝓭𝓮 on my really shitty Macbook trackpad
I feel like an unc

Idk if infernum is harder but with that stupid ass control scheme I had it definitely felt harder to do that

[robust osprey]

my greatest achievement was uuuhh

[timber glacier]

Do you mean old malice or new malice mode

[sinful adder]

My greatest achievement is beating the Roaring Knight

[robust osprey]

I think mine is like

eternity mutant idfk

[timber glacier]

Mine is probably beating yharon with only gear up to the start of post moon lord

[robust osprey]

oh right I did up to infernum DoG woflesd that surely counts for something

surely

[timber glacier]

I was trying to do pre-moon lord but it was incredibly hard for me so I let myself get slightly better stuff

[light linden]

mine is beating master vanilla with nothing but a wooden boomerang

0/10 do not recommend

golem and moon lord SUCKED

[robust osprey]

right I also did mantless roaring knight that counts for something righ

[bright phoenix]

There's a new malice mode?

[timber glacier]

Oh its just fortheworthy + death mode

[robust osprey]

malice (fabsolean) and malice (non-fabsolean)

[bright phoenix]

Ohhh

[timber glacier]

No unique ai but it had the name in reference

[bright phoenix]

💀 💀 ☠️ ☠️

[light linden]

[bright phoenix]

Okay not to stereotype but it still baffles me that fabsol, the dude who was synonymous with a pink alicorn princess avatar with a name that's just fabulous and absol mixed together, was a transphobe

[timber glacier]

His pseudo self insert character was a drunk princess too like what

There was an accessory that like was vanity turning you into cirrus also like specified it had like estrogen in it within its tooltip so like that feels extra weird

[bright phoenix]

Like I didn't know anything about him at all basically except for the in game stuff and wiki and I lowkey wondered if he was trans for a bit

[bright phoenix]

I think I remember that yeah

[latent bolt]

like it or not the word malice in its use for difficulty was placed in cold storage

using it to represent calamity's AI changes in legendary makes sense

[timber glacier]

It also fits since while also in ftw on its own its also in gfb which also has a ton of references to old removed calamity content

[latent bolt]

yeah

this kind of content fits legendary because iirc it was originally a secret difficulty that in recent years has seen new use for joke content or content that would make no sense anywhere else

[bright phoenix]

I think I saw a weapon in a diff mod the other day called 𝓶𝓪𝓵𝓲𝓬𝓮 𝓶𝓸𝓭𝓮

[timber glacier]

I do remember it is referenced in hunt of the old god through an accessory that gives you a buff called malice mode (it also references the removed stress mechanic)

[bright phoenix]

https://splitmod.fandom.com/wiki/Malice_Mode

Fandom ewwww

[timber glacier]

Fun fact if you change the “fandom” in a fandom link to “antifandom” it will actually link you to a less add-filled version of the page

[latent bolt]

Goozma Expert mode accessory my beneutraled

[bleak hare]

Yo so uhhhh like what the hell is the world soul

Was reading bout it or sun

How is the planet alive

Like

How

[eager bluff]

we dont know it just kinda did that as far as we're aware

[bleak hare]

What makes it “alive”

[timber glacier]

We don’t know much about it other than it was split into a ton of pieces and the dragons absorbed its pieces

[bleak hare]

They should really rewrite it into the universe soul

[timber glacier]

Also the planet is alive probably because of magic and the world is a fantasy world

[sinful adder]

We don't know

No it's explicitly not the universe

[timber glacier]

Why?

[sinful adder]

Just the planet's soul

[bleak hare]

The universe itself having a soul makes more sense I figure

Also the scaling

[timber glacier]

The scaling? What do you mean

[bleak hare]

The auric souls grant almost infinite amounts of power in their domain

I feel like just a planet isn’t capable of that

[sinful adder]

It's not even close to infinite

Well sort of

[bleak hare]

I’m pretty sure it is kinda close

[eager bluff]

its complicated

you can sustain mana output forever but it doesnt inherently increase that output

[sinful adder]

It's infinite in the sense that it will never run out no matter how much you use, but there is a limit to how fast you can use it

[timber glacier]

Also like the planet is like very important and like also they don’t want to make terraria objectively too much of like the most important place in universe so if the universe soul was there it woudln’t make sense

[bleak hare]

Like if the soul shattering was caused by some universal event that would make more sense

I feel like there’s a solution here

[sinful adder]

The dragons probably caused the soul shattering

[bleak hare]

Ion reckon

But what if we

[sinful adder]

Most of the game is limited to this specific planet

Universal stuff ends up being kinda nonsese

Auric souls are infinite in the same sense that a solar panel is infinite

[eager bluff]

theres really not a point in going much further than the planet itself in scale

[bleak hare]

Made the world soul a collection of souls at the centre of the planet where all souls go when they die and it’s how the planet keeps up its geothermal activity

[timber glacier]

Well calamity does have some stuff that goes a bit further than just the planet like the moon and martians and sun having some relelvence

[eager bluff]

hence the much further

[sinful adder]

That's like final fantasy 7's lifestream

That would be neat but it's apparently not that

Souls that die usually explode into essence (soul juice)

A lot of this stuff has been thought out already and has to be the way it is for things to work

[bleak hare]

And the universe soul a source of almost infinite power that shattered and shot a beam of spiritual energy at earth, leading to the dragons getting their powers from auric souls (large collections of the energy) and the elementals being created from the souls embedding themselves in the earth and bringing it to life

[sinful adder]

That sounds awful and convoluted

[eager bluff]

we're fairly certain the elementals are older than the dragons

[sinful adder]

All this stuff is decided already

[bleak hare]

It’s better than what we have now gng

[sinful adder]

You can write your own different story!

[bleak hare]

Ion think it is

[sinful adder]

I don't agree

[timber glacier]

Not really imo its just forcing something that isn’t needed

[sinful adder]

It is. The lore writers talk in this channel

[eager bluff]

"better than what we have now" its needlessly convoluted and opens up way more of the cosmology than would otherwise be relevant for the story

[sinful adder]

You are welcome to write whatever you want. But no one here will prefer it to what we already have

[bleak hare]

Imo btw

[eager bluff]

the story isnt dealing with a massive universal scale so opening it up to that scale ends up being pointless

[bleak hare]

Infinite power from the souls sounds pretty powerful

Maybe not universal ur right

But still

How is that convoluted tho respectfully m8

[sinful adder]

It's not Infinite

[bleak hare]

Maybe not infinite mb

My stupid ass🥀

[sinful adder]

You know how your mana bar refills on its own? That's infinite power

Auric souls make the mana bar never empty for one specific kind of magic

[timber glacier]

I will say the world soul allowing xeroc/zetaros to be able to control the sun is an odd thing imo but like most of the world soul peices aren’t too weird when it comes to not extending past the scale of the world or something

[bleak hare]

What is primordial light

[timber glacier]

Sunlight

[bleak hare]

Like super condensed mana that resembles light

Oh

[timber glacier]

No just sunlight

[bleak hare]

Doesn’t draedon say stars are made of mana tho

[eager bluff]

why did it all go to here specifically, why did it happen in the first place, why would the dragons be here before elementals (which is the implication of the ordering in your message, though i will admit that this is just a preliminary thing)

[bleak hare]

So logically it would be kind of like mana

[eager bluff]

magic sunlight

[timber glacier]

Mana stars could still emit like light that wouldn’t be weird

[bleak hare]

They get created at the same time I figure but the elementals thing can be different idrc bout that

[eager bluff]

its not like exactly sunlight it has some differences but the easiest explanation is to just say magic sunlight

[bleak hare]

Yeah but would that make it closer to mana or sunlight

[timber glacier]

The elementals seem to not have anything directly related to the world soul other than silva the nature elemental ascended using a dragons soul that absorbed a piece of the world soul

Also like its just that primordial light is sunlight and also is also kind of magical

[bleak hare]

How is it magical

[eager bluff]

we dont know the specifics its just really similar to sunlight but its magic

[timber glacier]

Because its magical

[bleak hare]

Like it can be wielded like mana

I’ll go with it can be wielded like mana

[timber glacier]

Kind of iirc but like its magic sunlight basically

I think eol does use it kinda like that but still

[eager bluff]

i think less of it can be wielded like mana and more with mana

[bleak hare]

Gotcha

[timber glacier]

Also now that I think about it isn’t empress of light the child of gods or something? Do we know which god is her parent or do we have no idea at all

[bleak hare]

So it can like supercharge mana or sum

[bleak hare]

We have no clue

[eager bluff]

unknown but probably not

[bleak hare]

So either it’s light, mana, both or it’s own kind of energy

[timber glacier]

Uts a kind of light thats what it is

[bleak hare]

We need a draedon log on ts

[bleak hare]

Ok

[eager bluff]

my base assumption would be light with mana somehow meshed with it

[bleak hare]

Good work nephew great explanation

Yh so it’s a kind of both light and mana👍

[eager bluff]

probably but we dont know for certain afaik

[bleak hare]

Good for now ig

Also regarding pulling mana from nowhere according to ben can u just like have it be pulled from the world soul or the environment that makes more sense I figure I like the laws of physics

Sorry to nitpick

[sinful adder]

It's pulled from a secret extra place we haven't been told about yet, according to something a dev said earlier today

[bleak hare]

Ohhh sick

Stupid as this sounds could auric souls be the same

Idk

[sinful adder]

Oh oops sorry that was how auric souls work

[bleak hare]

Oh gotcha

[sinful adder]

There's also just ambient mana out there, and we know mana is stored in the bones

[bleak hare]

In the bones you say

[eager bluff]

yeah

bone mana

[sinful adder]

Living souls probably also generate (or maybe collect) small amounts of mana passively

[sinful adder]

That's why skeletons reanimate the most easily. It explains everything to do with the dungeon and various undead

[bleak hare]

Ok cool

[bleak hare]

Yeah nice

Essences are different from souls right

[eager bluff]

yeah

[timber glacier]

Yes

[sinful adder]

Essence is soul juice

Or something

[bleak hare]

Ok hold on lemme explain my theory on the two Gimmie a sec this’ll take a while

[eager bluff]

essence is. i guess the easiest way to describe it is what a soul leaves behind as it decomposes

[sinful adder]

Although the 3 main items called essence are probably... Different somehow?

[bleak hare]

Yeah I’m sorta referring to these

[eager bluff]

not a perfect explanation or anything but

[bleak hare]

So basically essences are gatherings of mana found through the body, bones etc. they can change in appearance and properties based on the physical conditions of there host and they are also what allow mana to be used by their host. They also degrade into radiation when their hosts die (not usually noticeable but in things such as gods well). Is that good. No I didn’t read any of the official lore regarding this so this is fully my take but I think it makes enough sense though.

[eager bluff]

close i think

they arent exactly pure mana but they're similar afaik

and i dont know if its exactly radiation they decompose into or just they get gunk Everywhere

basically

good job 👍 you got a plausible explanation

[bleak hare]

Well my thought process is that I’m pretty sure the astral infection is also radiation of some sort also derived from degrading mana (only in stars) so yeah

Correct me if I’m wrong on that one tho

[sinful adder]

The astral infection is mold

Star mold

[bleak hare]

Like it’s a living thing that feeds of the mana form stars or what

[agile matrix]

from what i understand, its the result of a star failing to supernova and producing too much mana

again from my understanding the endgame of a star is

run out of fuel, explode violently (supernova)
run out of energy, collapse under own gravity (black hole)
run out of fuel AND energy, continue making mana, lose form (astral infection)

[long bloom]

this has never been stated anywhere but cool idea

[agile matrix]

i mean it makes relevant sense

stars got mana, astral infection gives a mana upgrade, mana has been known to be fickle

[split mortar]

Uh
When were fallen stars big enough to supernova and make blackholes

[agile matrix]

big stars. shoulda specified

small stars are the ones we carry around, big stars are the ones that have planets

im like 30% they're different

[split mortar]

Deus chucks a bloated star at the planet even the high end of mana stars seem to not be crazy big
The suns different and is a hydrogen star iirc idk if that even can become astral

[long bloom]

stip said to discard all cosmology info for now except that the solar system is heliocentric

[agile matrix]

awesome.

its my headcanon then sob

[agile matrix]

i thought it was a meteor

[split mortar]

No its just the actual astral star itself iirc

[agile matrix]

i always thought it was a large rock covered in astral infection tahts not a direct flow of it

[split mortar]

iirc the order of events is deus bit it, got infected, yeeted the star at the planet

[long bloom]

the "meteor" is a chunk of a star yes

[sinful adder]

Them changing the solar system to heliocentric while keeping the concept of primordial light breaks so much that they seemingly just don't get

At least it's not as bad as "the sun is big and made of hydrogen but it also orbits terraria"

[pulsar ocean]

What’s hydrogen

[sinful adder]

Exactly

Wait unless you don't mean

Guh

This is confusing

[brazen coral]

Hydrogen is the first element of the periodic table and is an extremely light and reactive gas

[long bloom]

what

primordial light is literally just another word for sunlight

the sun emits sunlight, which xeroc can control

what's confusing

[pulsar ocean]

thank you

[frail hearth]

could yahrim solo odysius

[bleak hare]

Yo regarding the astral infection discussion with siff and stickerbored I agree that astrum deus dunking a whole ass star at terraria seems a little outlandish in comparison to a meteor

Also I’m assuming stip is a lore writer

Also stickerboreds concept with stars dying is sick someone make that cannon

I’m confused as well is our sun hydrogen or mana because obviously both exist but which is it

[wanton pendant]

Like, from the Odyssey?
Probably yeah.

[wanton pendant]

Sun is made of Primordial Light.

[wanton pendant]

Yeah.

[bleak hare]

Ok so for just consistency sake I’m going to assume primordial light is a type of condensed mana that self illuminates itself because again draedon says that stars are made of mana

[wanton pendant]

It's a different thing.

What it is specifically isn't clear beyond sunlight.

[agile matrix]

you got it champion. gimme three years and a LOT of convincing

[timber glacier]

Why would stars being made of star mean primordial light can’t just be light like the sun is made of like hydrogen or something but like irl sunlight isn’t made of hydrogen

[bleak hare]

Actually ur right Quinn

However

Mana is an actual type of energy

[timber glacier]

Do we know that?

[bleak hare]

So I couldnt logically see it emitting anything other than energy

[bleak hare]

I’m pretty sure it’s all but confirmed atp

[timber glacier]

Isn’t light kinda energy or something

[bleak hare]

It has all the properties of energy

[bleak hare]

So light is energy and mana is energy

Actually hold on ima research some more

And as for mana weapons creating matter

And mana tools

E = mc squared

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa

[timber glacier]

I don’t think thats exact what e=mc^2 like isn’t that just how much energy any object has or something

[bleak hare]

I’m pretty sure it’s that also but it does confirm that energy can be converted into matter

Matter of fact they did it in real life with light particles

Ok so looking at it here it says that sunlight is electromagnetic radiation consisting of roughly half and half heat and light and a little bit of ultraviolet sprinkled in

So primordial light would probably be part mana as well

God damn I’m such a gimp bro I needa do something irl

[agile matrix]

this is a fun question actually. what is mana, atomically

is it electrons

[timber glacier]

Maybe its like energy and not really like something with mass

Or like sound

[bleak hare]

It’s just a type of electromagnetic energy presumably

Exclusive to the calamity verse

[nocturne bear]

What is this

I know its like something related to the primordial light but what is it actually

[split mortar]

Primordial light sigil

[agile matrix]

symbol from bloodborne im pretty sure

its xeroc’s domain sigil

[split mortar]

Also true

[pulsar ocean]

wowwww

who came up with that

[bleak hare]

I don’t actually think it belongs to Xeroc I’m pretty sure it belonged to Zeratros before him so just anyone that uses primordial light ig

I think that’s also the reason ND from WotG uses it as well

[timber glacier]

Nd uses it because weren’t they originally xeroc or something but that got changed

[wanton pendant]

Nameless Deity uses it because they believe they are above copyright law.

[robust osprey]

kinda true but I dont think just anyone with prim light uses it

[timber glacier]

Empress of light doen’t use it

[icy veldt]

Given what they can do, they're not entirely wrong

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, because she doesn't have access to a magic thing that gives you near total control over the stuff.

[timber glacier]

I’m just saying like only very highly skilled users of it and stuff have it at all

[raven brook]

i'm pretty sure xeroc and zeratros juist have it because they have the domain of primordial light

it's a domain sigil, just like sacrifice or life. only holders of world soul shards have this, so auric dragons/gods

the only reason xeroc has it in his concept art pre-ascencion is because that came before the concept of sigils was exactly established in the story

[split mortar]

Wym fanart

[raven brook]

in this case, since xeroc had a perfect ascencion, he retained zeratros's primordial light sigil

[raven brook]

brain fart i meant concept art

[split mortar]

Happens

[long bloom]

it's the sigil of the primordial light domain
each domain has a sigil that appears behind whoever weilds the domain, so just auric dragons and gods

[bleak hare]

ND was originally just old lore Xeroc but they even changed that now any version of Xeroc and ND share almost no similarity aside from their use of the sigil and primordial light even in lore and personality ND is different from old Xeroc

[bleak hare]

Uhhh I don’t think it’s every domain I think it’s just cosmetic choice

I think yharim has one too actually

[wanton pendant]

Yharim has not been portrayed with one, and it has only been depicted with those who have domains.

[raven brook]

Yharim has a insignia, which is just a symbol for himself and his army

Domain sigils are a more literal physical thing

theyre big glowy things that auric dragons and gods have

Unless specified otherwise all of them had one

We just haven't seen most due to lack of art

Agnus (Sacrifice), Ravager (Blood), Silva (Life) and Xeroc (Primordial Light) arwe the ones we've seen

[nocturne bear]

Oh i thought it was like some all seeing eye thing because i have the xeroc sigil as my wallpaper so i was worried if it would be haram/sinful to do so

[wanton pendant]

If a Terraria mod was using actual sacrilegious symbols for a boss rush mode you'd have heard about it by now because that would be prime drama, the preferred food of the internet user.

[high bear]

Zeatros is a dragon right?

[wanton pendant]

Yes. Zeratros was the king of the dragons.

[late veldt]

wait, why are agnus and ravager seperate?

[wanton pendant]

Agnus and Ravager have different sigils.

[raven brook]

They have different domains

Agnus is Sacrifice, Ravager is Blood

[split mortar]

Domain shifted after revival and so did the sigil

[late veldt]

ahe

[light linden]

y'know

I wonder if anything from Agnus's mind is left

[light linden]

do we know Ravager's sigil?

[wanton pendant]

Yeah.

The full thing isn't really visible though.

[zenith geode]

evil flesh gorilla my beloved

[lucid wigeon]

Krampus sized gorilla

[zinc crypt]

Hypothetically speaking
would yahrim fully despise summoner class?

[raven brook]

Why would he?

[agile matrix]

enslavement

[zinc crypt]

Didn't he fully despise the idea of the plague?
something like creatures working under his chains

[agile matrix]

to which he holds major disdain according to. i think one lore item?

[eager bluff]

yes but

summons arent actually living things

[agile matrix]

?

what changes their living distinction

[eager bluff]

they're constructs why do you think they use mana you arent just pulling an actual animal out of nowhere

[agile matrix]

1. they dont use mana anymore thats a holdover
2. i was under the impression that using it summoned either the creature itself to your side or materialized the parts that then constructed

[eager bluff]

for the first

that has not happened yet

we cant base lore off stuff that is yet to be implemented

[raven brook]

I think different summons vary but i think most of them are mana constructs

[zinc crypt]

I can only see him excusing non draedon machine summons

[raven brook]

Magic still uses mana even if its not literally consuming the mana resource

[wanton pendant]

If you think about it, Yharim is in fact a Summoner. I mean, he leads an army!

[raven brook]

Because that's just how magic works

Weapons that fire big awesome projectiles are still by all means magic and thus using mana in some form unless they have some sort of alternative means to do so like lasers/technology

[agile matrix]

does calamity meaningfully change the existance of summons ?

[eager bluff]

what

[zinc crypt]

the difference is he didn't need a staff to bring an army 🧠

[agile matrix]

for like the daedalus golem staff i can see that

[wanton pendant]

What is Calamitas but a summon?

[raven brook]

Wdym by "meaningfully change the existence of summons"

[agile matrix]

but stuff like hornet staff can very easily just be a hornet. you copped that from teh jungle

[raven brook]

there's nothing to change to begin with

you can just add

[zinc crypt]

Wasn't she a child he mentored?

[eager bluff]

im saying them not using mana is a 1.4.5 thing and nobody has looked at it for cal because cal isnt on 1.4.5

[agile matrix]

the sun in terraria vs the sun in calamity are two quite different topics

[raven brook]

she's a child he groomed into being a reusable nuclear bomb but like close enough

[wanton pendant]

Permafrost raised her, Yharim weaponized her.

[raven brook]

yeah but that is

a entirely different topic

insane strawman

[zinc crypt]

ooooh

[agile matrix]

??? red herring

if calamity had previously noted that summons were mana constructs

id wanna know

[raven brook]

there is no summoner weapon lore in vanilla

[eager bluff]

there is no weapon lore in vanilla

[raven brook]

there is nothing To Change they're just weapons you use to kill things

[agile matrix]

but for all we know you literally call them forth from their home at lightspeed. they move quite fast

[raven brook]

there is not, its headcanon

[agile matrix]

alr thats all i wanted to know

[raven brook]

but given the fact you use staves to summon a creature of thin air and it obeys you unquestionably i have always thought the most logical explanation was mana construct

most fantasy settings have something similar with their versions of "summons" too anyways so there's precedent

dnd familiar cat isn't literally a cat but a magical spirit taking the form of a cat, etc

[wanton pendant]

Clearly the lore should be that summons are just Pokémon and the summon items are Pokéballs.

[agile matrix]

this's been my explanation. doubly explains why they move slightly slower than teleportation

[raven brook]

Of course you could adapt this differently and have say, a character that has pets that help them like a druid sorta beat

but going purely of the way things work ingame id say mana construct is what makes the most sense for me

[split mortar]

I thought they were blatantly mana constructs in vanilla

[agile matrix]

i wouldnt think something that doesnt consume mana can be constructed from it

[raven brook]

Ambient mana, magic properties of the item itself

[agile matrix]

otherwise the fact that a mage needs to expend it while a summoner can spam it as much as they want sounds a bit backasswards

[raven brook]

Again literally any form of magic is derived from mana

[zinc crypt]

All creatures in vanilla just see this cool stick and decide you're worthy to die for

[raven brook]

You cannot have magic in the calamity setting without it involving mana in some way

Atleasti don't think

[agile matrix]

idk how technologically advanced is the avg citizen

if i showed them a lightbulb would they go "woaw"

[split mortar]

Is the terrablade magical
The meowmere
Vortex beater?
What about the infinite amount of daybreaks?

[raven brook]

probably not

[zinc crypt]

would we consider zenith magical or the terrarian juggling over 10 swords

[agile matrix]

terrablade is enchanted with beam II
cat sword
i think this one just produces rockets really fast. its not inherently magical
this is a spear made of the sun and you expect a limited amount

zenith is a yoyo