lore-discussion

[agile matrix]

its my nothingburger issue but i still consider a problem

[spare pier]

So basically what you're saying is that you think Yharon's domain is too narrow and cliché

And doesn't do anything interesting with the concept of Rebirth

[agile matrix]

yharon being important is not the issue i have: yharon's domain barely getting note outside of his one job using it is

[agile matrix]

yes

thank you

[spare pier]

To that I ask

What would it do besides that?

What can you do with Rebirth that isn't, y'know, rebirthing people

Or dragons in this case

[west plume]

flesh reconstitution

[agile matrix]

honestly id point at yharim ?

dude got scorched and yharon saved his life and gave him a new one

[raven brook]

But how exactly is that a power

[agile matrix]

wdym

[west plume]

thats just an action which lines up with his domain

[raven brook]

That is just something he did through his actions and relation with Yharim

[raven brook]

yeah that

That isn't, a power or a extension of his domain

That's just a thing he did that symbolically ties into who he is as as character

[spare pier]

^

You can't expect Yharon to have the power to literally give people new lives

[agile matrix]

he did a thing that aligns with his domain while still sustaining his character

i gave the (shitpost) example of being at least related to like

therapy

[raven brook]

So is your point not in regards to his domain...?

Again

You are really not communicating what your issue is well here

[spare pier]

So you're asking for Yharon to do things

[raven brook]

Madeline said this, and you agreed

But now you're seemingly changing it to be more to do with what he does as a character?

Which are two very different things

[agile matrix]

from what i know all he does Rebirth wise is

revive dragons
save yharim and (lack of better word) help him start anew

[raven brook]

So is your issue just that Yharon dosen't do much in the story

[agile matrix]

him saving yharim is not the part that i like, its the part where (incredibly directly) assisted in a guy starting anew

[raven brook]

Because yeah that's true and it's a issue of honestly alot of characters including Yharon not doing much in the story right now because, implementation moment

[agile matrix]

death is not the Only thing that you can come back (or be Reborn) from

you could go through trauma you could go through divorce

[leaden bridge]

What if they put Yharim in the amazing digital circus

[agile matrix]

how people change is important and him being the dragon of it while also not wanting to change would be a great move for his character

[west plume]

have you ever noticed that there are literally no identity politics in auric dragon society

[agile matrix]

i dont

see how this is relevant.

[west plume]

like... when you get rebirthed you become what you want to be

[agile matrix]

im gonna be real

[west plume]

that's part of yharon's power

[agile matrix]

you brought this up twice

[agile matrix]

yes. thus is the nature of his revival process which again He Just Does That

[spare pier]

Frankly I'm almost insulted that you're saying this as if it's not entirely intentional and his big thing

[west plume]

??

[agile matrix]

he Does that he does not Facilitate it. if a dragon broke their leg he does not (as of current) seem like he would help them recover from the broken leg

[glacial rampart]

the venom

[eager bluff]

because thats not rebirth

[west plume]

do you want a New leg or a Healed leg

[spare pier]

Yes, Yharon's domain of Rebirth, rising from the ashes as something new, is subverted by the fact that Yharon uses it to keep things exactly as they are and to prevent change

[leaden bridge]

I wouldn't put healing a leg under the concept of rebirth, no

[raven brook]

Since Syrup and Madeline are already discussing this i'll probably hop off since i'm frankly rather confused about what the point being conveyed here even is and id prefer to not turn this into a jjk jumping

[agile matrix]

not

fuckin

healing the leg

[eager bluff]

im not becoming a new person just because i have a broken arm

[agile matrix]

you do not need to heal every fucking thing

he revives them yes thats the whole point

[west plume]

yharon can give you a New leg or other appendage

do you want a New leg

[agile matrix]

but not everything stays like that for-fucking-ever

he despises change and yet all he does when things go bad is just set them anew

he does not associate whatsoever with the aspect of Things Fucking Happen

[glacial rampart]

u are my specialz, , , , bwa wa wa bwawawa!! bwa wa wa wabwaaaa bwa wa wa waa u are my specialz , , ,,

[agile matrix]

i do not want to curse but yall keep latching onto the wrong parts of my point and i dont know how to say it in a way that yall'll get

[eager bluff]

yes congratulations that is a major part of his character

[spare pier]

That's putting Yharon's character under an incredibly narrow view and also entirely misunderstanding what it means for Yharon to not want things to change

[agile matrix]

thats fuckin boring!!!!

[raven brook]

Yharon dosen't inherently hate change

[grizzled pivot]

is there any importance of the gemstone on her chest, because this is the important aspect of calamitas' clothing design imo, yet i have no clue what it's for (asides from maybe the Brimstone Jewel drop)

do i need to headcanon spice, is it there to be cool, am i overthinking it

[west plume]

i think you misread what yharon's point is. he doesn't hate change, he just wants to be the one enacting and directing it

[raven brook]

Yharon simply does not accept the change that happened after the dragon civilization decayed

[eager bluff]

things happen, he does not want things to change drastically, so he tries to stop things from drastic change, and tries to undo drastic change

[agile matrix]

then why is he the dragon of "things begin anew, and thats just how its gonna happen"

[raven brook]

He thinks the Auric Dragons where the rightful rulers of the world and does not accept a world where humans/mortals have become the new global force

[west plume]

when the world was being almost globally oppressed by auric dragons, yharon had a central place where he was the most important guy alive and everyone agreed with him

now he has Nothing

he wants to use his power Now to make a new world where there are no gods who stole power from those deserving

[agile matrix]

and as the Dragon Of Rebirth he changed to adapt to this (poorly but still!!!)

[raven brook]

I think it's just character desing yeah, nothing indicating it has any importance as far as we know

[agile matrix]

as, again, Things Fucking Happen!!

[west plume]

yharon doesn't want things to happen. he wants to make things happen

that's his entire character

[agile matrix]

for a guy who Makes Things Happen, he doesnt Do That

[raven brook]

I mean he is trying to

He's one of the two guys behind the crusade

[agile matrix]

no i know. lorewise he is trying to do something, he did the deicide

[west plume]

the crusade has a killcount potentially in the millions? billions?

[raven brook]

So is your issue not lore then and thus gameplay which you said wasn't just a while ago

Again this is really confusing

[west plume]

the world is almost exhausted of gods?

[raven brook]

Your point seems to be constantly fluctuating

[west plume]

like, he's doing what he wants to happen most?

[raven brook]

Regardless, as i said before but didnt because i got distracted

[agile matrix]

yes. and all he did was Change it. he did not facilitate it Beginning Anew

[raven brook]

Imma hop off hope u guys reach a conclusion

[agile matrix]

he is closer to the Dragon of Change than the Dragon of Rebirth

[long bloom]

the crusade was pretty significant i think

[glacial rampart]

im going to hop off to prevent the venom

[west plume]

how is wiping the slate entirely clean in the direction you want it to go not a new beginning

[long bloom]

what

[agile matrix]

you said this four times go away atp

please dude we get it you dont like me let me talk

[west plume]

lore users

[spare pier]

I'm confused as shit right now because you said "Yharon doesn't use the domain of Rebirth interestingly" and now you're basically saying "yeah but he doesn't use it interestingly in the way I wanted so it's bad"

[agile matrix]

im being fuckin strawmanned

[leaden bridge]

Idr see why his mentality around everything has to be aligned with his powers anyways. That kind of thing might apply to ascension but I don't think it has to whatever process the dragons got their domains from

[agile matrix]

he does not use the domain of rebirth other than wiping the world asunder. he would burn the forest and leave. instead of burning the forest and Planting More Fucking Saplings

he killed everyone and yet he does not help the world to be Reborn in a better way, he just killed fucking everyone

[leaden bridge]

yeah he's a really bad person

[west plume]

burning down the forest allows new things to grow. his power is to burn down the forest and have it grow again anew. yharon is not responsible for guiding what you will become after the reroll happens

[agile matrix]

doming a dude in the head and leaving his daughter to cry instead of helping his daughter to not cry in at least Any Way

[west plume]

you'd more want a Life dragon for that

or maybe a Death dragon to guide your fate

[agile matrix]

his job is to just massively change everything and then leave? do i have you correct?

[west plume]

Yes

[agile matrix]

the guy whos job is Rebirth does not associate himself with Rebirth but rather just Change

[west plume]

Yharon's entire role in dragon society was rebirthing dragons. Rebirthing did not involve any nurture, he just Made you anew and let you go

[agile matrix]

he would rather dome you in the head and drag you to the rezpoint than try and to make the problem better

do i have you right

[leaden bridge]

I will re-estate there's a strange base assumption here that him being the dragon of rebirth would make him act in that way when I don't see why that would necessarily be the case. Would it not be compelling for him to not really fully align with what his domain is when it comes to his view on the world

[west plume]

Notice how he isn't using this power on any other shard holders because he doesn't Want to

exactly

[west plume]

Yes. The problem is solved and you have a net neutral amount of dragons who agree with you

[agile matrix]

okay so we've arrived at my point: that makes him feel very minimally like a dragon of rebirth

[west plume]

okay

[agile matrix]

outside of, as mentioned, him just doming you in the skull

[spare pier]

Or maybe he's just really fucking bad at his job and that's the point

[leaden bridge]

okay but like why does he have to act like his domain

[agile matrix]

not what i said

[agile matrix]

that sounds like it

[leaden bridge]

He's not some like. Divinely created envoy of rebirth. He got the power to do that after some bullshit

[agile matrix]

atp im convinced that yharon is just a fuckin moron comparable to wheatley

[west plume]

??

[leaden bridge]

the kind of person he is doesn't have to align with his powers at all

He's the dragon of rebirth because he has the powers not because he represents rebirth as a person through his morals and actions

[west plume]

also the whole point of the auric dragons is that very few of them were even qualified to hold power. zeratros left the entire surface on preheat for an unreasonably long amount of time but no one is like Man, Zeratros was a dumb piece of shit huh

[spare pier]

Because he was never employed to actually seed the soil he burned, he was just keeping the same sapling alive forever. When that sapling withered and died, he didn't know what to do, and instead of tending to the garden that flourished thereafter he burned it all down because it wasn't what he wanted

[agile matrix]

okay quick crossreference: were world soul shards just randomly given

[west plume]

this is to contrast with gods who are also completely unqualified and negligent. but you can't really get Rid of either

[agile matrix]

i ask this not antagonistically i dont actually know how they were given

[eager bluff]

if you found them you got them

[leaden bridge]

well we don't know do we. I don't think we'll learn that

[spare pier]

What's so hard to understand that Yharon is a terrible asshole who used Rebirth for his own goals and when said goal became impossible he just burned everything down out of a petty revenge?

[agile matrix]

so yharim found the shard that said "Rebirth" on it somehow and thought "yes. im gonna do that."

[agile matrix]

because that sounds idiotic for a character as important as yharon

[spare pier]

???

[west plume]

do you think important people can't abuse their power or be bad people?

[agile matrix]

not what i said

[spare pier]

^

Then what are you saying?

Are you saying that Yharon should have known better than to use his domain selfishly?

[eager bluff]

do you think they're in labeled tupperware containers

[spare pier]

Because if that's what you're saying then... yeah, that's Yharon's entire conflict

He used his domain for his own selfish reasons

That's Yharon's character

[west plume]

world soul handout boxes chosen by raffle to be distributed to each and every dragon starting with zeratros' friends

[leaden bridge]

where does the concept they like found them even rlly come from. I don't think they were laying precisely around

[agile matrix]

shit probably shattered and went everywhere

glass plate

[leaden bridge]

I assume if they shattered it it just spread randomly indeed like glass

[plucky juniper]

i think he should be trying to regrow that withered sapling, fail and then go kaplooie

[leaden bridge]

it also would not have shattered evenly or cleanly which explains why domains are like That

[west plume]

where does the concept they like found them even rlly come from.
the world existed before dragons and dragons are a natural organism that evolved and belonged, naturally, in the environment and happened to be social and capable of building communities. they were also the only society not busy enough to write history for themselves for quite a while

[plucky juniper]

like if hes willing to put aside moral barriers to do vile shit because his job got fucked

[agile matrix]

his selfish reasons are like exactly one thing and that is it

[west plume]

you can extrapolate from this that world soul shards weren't granted but Acquired by a society of dragons who then used them to ascend somehow some way

[leaden bridge]

yeah but like I don't think "they found world soul shards" is an accurate descriptor of what happened

[agile matrix]

using the tree metaphor, if a tree started drooping he would chop it down and plant another acorn

[leaden bridge]

I think it's okay we don't rlly know. I just think reading it like that feels inaccurate to the themes and such

[agile matrix]

that does not make any sense within logical reason and at least one or more dragons had to realize that at at least Some Point

[spare pier]

Yes, that's called a character motivation and those tend to be very simple and one-note because that's how they Work, what's important is why the character is pursuing that goal and those tend to branch out

[spare pier]

WHAT DRAGON

THEY'RE FUCKING DEAD

[west plume]

what do you think the reason is?

[agile matrix]

WHEN THEY WERENT!!!!!!!!!

[plucky juniper]

what im saying is

[agile matrix]

I DO NOT SPEAK IN MODERN TERMS I SPEAK IN THE PAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spare pier]

WHEN THEY WEREN'T YHARON WASN'T TRYING TO BURN THE FUCKING WORLD DOWN

Oh my God

[plucky juniper]

if your job is rebirth, and you're pissy that you cant do your job because the kind you selfishly used your powers exclusively for

[west plume]

i dun wanna spoil anything ask the archon group for that but it's p interesting and i wanna hear what you think happened

[agile matrix]

why would ANYONE follow a moron like yharfraud who did nothing but rezz people! you'd know him as a photocopier at an office more than a guy!!!!

[plucky juniper]

i feel like JUST GENOCIDE isnt using that well enough

[eager bluff]

oh my god

[plucky juniper]

what im tryin to say is

[raven brook]

i wonder why i would consider the guy who made me immortal important

[spare pier]

No it's more like Yharon had the fucking Elixir of Life

[plucky juniper]

he should be like seath the scaleless and trying to do insane horrific experiments in an attempt to resurrect his auric dragon kin

and fail

[spare pier]

He didn't have a cheap photocopier he had the single most powerful artifact in the whole fucking planet

[agile matrix]

and thats ALL he did! he was just John Revival!

[eager bluff]

hes not like a pediatrician he actively brings dragons back from the dead

[west plume]

i like to think that yharon already did this but just made shitty homunculi since their long-dead corpses would lack the information needed to reform the person that was once there

[plucky juniper]

ya

there's also

[agile matrix]

he ONLY revived people! he did not help them with their problems he did not do jackshit!

[plucky juniper]

A DRACONIC CULT

WHO WANTS TO RESURRECT AN AURIC DRAGON

[spare pier]

Yharon was, and still is, the single most powerful creature on the entire planet because he can literally institutionalize an entire race into power forever if he wants to

[eager bluff]

thats not what the dragons needed him for

[plucky juniper]

AND WHO PREVIOUSLY SERVED YHARIM UNTILT HE WHOL POLTERGHAST THING

[agile matrix]

?????

[plucky juniper]

?

[west plume]

they can't without breaking their code :p so they're mostly a historical society which happens to be a cult like paleontologists

[spare pier]

You saying this shows that you somehow misunderstand just how important Rebirth is

[leaden bridge]

i guess it's true they invented ascension or xeroc and the terminus don't make the most sense, but idk. I'd like to think they shattered it on purpose

[eager bluff]

the bring me back to life when i die guy can be a complete asshole and not help me with my problems but hes still gonna be important because he BRINGS ME BACK TO LIFE WHEN I DIE

[plucky juniper]

whaty

[agile matrix]

is One Really Cool Thing more valuable than having Ten Thousand Moderately Neat Things

[light linden]

hi madeline

[raven brook]

Really Cool

[agile matrix]

would you rather have one tank or 10k bazookas

[glacial rampart]

When that One Really Cool Thing is BRINGING ANY DRAGON BACK TO LIFE i'd say yeah 😭

[spare pier]

What if you have Ten Thousand Moderately Neat Things and the THING THAT MAKES SO YOU HAVE ALL OF THEM FOREVER

[agile matrix]

personally, i would want 10k bazookas!

[raven brook]

Imagine if one day a person that can make humans immortal and hes the only one who can do it showed up

[leaden bridge]

10k bazookas would be drastically more helpful

[raven brook]

Would anyone be complaining that they cant offer them free therapy

[eager bluff]

"would you rather have an infinite supply of bazookas and rockets or one guy that knows how to fix a bazooka"

[agile matrix]

that is not what i fuckin said

[spare pier]

Yes it is

[eager bluff]

thats the actual dynamic there

[plucky juniper]

what the fuck are we even talking about

[spare pier]

You literally don't understand why Rebirth is so important

And I'm telling you this as the fucking writer of this whole fucking thing

You

Don't

Understand

What

Rebirth

Does

[agile matrix]

Yharim is gonna fucking Die and yet that dude has done more Radical Changes than Yharon

[west plume]

in order to acquire an auric soul to perfectly ascend and create an auric dragon equivalent they'd need to kill a shard holder without an encumbered soul and then hold onto their shard. the only recent shard holder you can do this with is like, xeroc, who isn't anywhere to be seen, so in order to revive any auric dragon they would need yharon's soul or to have killed an auric dragon in the past

[agile matrix]

the guy like thousands his senior!

[west plume]

i.e. they can't revive any auric dragons without breaking their code

[eager bluff]

i dont think you understand what working as a team means

[plucky juniper]

Code?

[agile matrix]

dude's a blink in Yharon's timeline and yet that dude has actually literally changed the world for the second time since fovos.

[leaden bridge]

The concept of them having the faith shard laying around for a couple years is rlly funny tbh

[spare pier]

(There's theoretically another way they could do it but it's only theoretically possible and in practicality it would demand absurd means)

[eager bluff]

yharim did not just decide to do this on a whim nor did he do it alone just because hes the face of the operation doesnt mean hes the only person involved with it

[raven brook]

you guys like frogs

i like frogs

[plucky juniper]

okay im not here to say something only for lore to pop up as counteracting

[raven brook]

theyre cool

[agile matrix]

unhelpful

[plucky juniper]

i am just gonna say

[agile matrix]

take a break if you must

[raven brook]

i'm not trying to be helpful

i'm saying frogs r cool

[agile matrix]

then go

i want to make my point and not be Dogpiled

but i am being Strawmanned and Irrelevanced

[dusk laurel]

adding this vague message into the doc to confuse you even more so that i can see a calamity dev distort in real time

[west plume]

the dragon cult mostly revere dragons as holy beings and i think suggesting to kill a dragon and especially yharon would just result in you being exsanguinated

[leaden bridge]

Okay but why does yharon have to be doing radical changes at all

Why is that base assumption there

[raven brook]

Your point has been repeated like 50 times over and in all of those times you have failed toa ctually communicate what you want or to actually understand what people have been telling you

[agile matrix]

i am referring to 1 really cool thing vs 10k moderately cool things

[spare pier]

Again

[raven brook]

It is not a Cool Thing and calling it tha fundamentally undermines and misunderstands the importance of it

[leaden bridge]

What's the really cool thing

[spare pier]

And I cannot stress this enough

[eager bluff]

you are vastly underestimating that one really cool thing

[spare pier]

Rebirth is not just a Really Cool Thing

[agile matrix]

it is a monstrously massive cool thing

yes

i know that

[spare pier]

Rebirth is the single most powerful ability anyone on the fucking planet can have

[raven brook]

You would not see Superman Existing in Real LIfe and say 'Well he's cool but he can only fly and be superstrong. I think it'd be cooler if he was more versatile you know, knowed how to code and plumb and maybe fish."

IT ISN'T

[agile matrix]

i understand that not dying is like actually so critical

[raven brook]

ABOUT BEING COOL

😭

[eager bluff]

its not one really cool thing its not like one cool rock compared to 200 slightly less cool rocks its a 2 pound diamond compared to a handful of gravel thats the magnitude of shit we're talking about here

[agile matrix]

COOL IS NOT USED LIKE THE WORD "AWESOMESAUCE" IT IS A HOLDWORD BECAUSE I CANT USE FUCKIN LEXICONAL

[plucky juniper]

If you have a dragon who has the power to rebirth stuff, and who is also happens to be the last of a kind of powerful beings whose existence was propagated by said dragon (selfishy) using their powers exclusively for them,
and he happens to be now leading a genocidal crusade alongside one guy, who has many people of various moral standings serving him

INCLUDING a cult whose leader dreams of resurrecting an auric dragon

[raven brook]

man this argument is really dumb

[dusk laurel]

i dont even know anymore

[plucky juniper]

if i was writing the lore I would hone the fuck in with that possible connection

[agile matrix]

its moronic because people keep taking me out of context.

[raven brook]

i have nothing better to do right now though

shits fucked aint it

[dusk laurel]

ive been reading this conversation for an hour and i still dont understand

[leaden bridge]

Also I don't know how that answers my question. Yharon is not the dragon of rebirth because he embodies it as a person. He is the dragon of rebirth because he got the rebirth powers. His actions don't have to align with his powers. So, why does it matter that Yharon didn't enact any "radical changes?"

[raven brook]

I think if literally everyone is incapable of understanding what you are trying to communicate the issue is not on them

[agile matrix]

dude i know its my fault

i get it

i get im a failure

i get that

i do not want to be Ad Hominemed into the sun

i want to discuss an issue i have with a character who, as of CURRENT does jack fucking shit

[raven brook]

Genuinely i think you should just drop this and thats what i was trying to do by bringing up Frogs

This argument ahs gone for comically long and it is going absolutely nowhere

[agile matrix]

if i do not get my point across then i will be Misquoted

and that is Not What I Want

[raven brook]

Misquoted ?

[agile matrix]

i want to be able to hold a conversation

[leaden bridge]

Every character does jack fucking shit it's calamity we're talking about

[raven brook]

its true

[agile matrix]

the past 45 minutes have genuinely been people just saying what i am not

[west plume]

da issue is that to revive an auric dragon you have to have their Soul for key information on their history and other things. it's much easier to just Ascend A Dragon since you can acquire and cleanse shards much more easily although it'd still be damn near impossible for the dragon cult especially in modern day

[agile matrix]

yharim does not do nothing

[raven brook]

And this is the problem

[agile matrix]

gameplay wise

[raven brook]

Your point seems to constantly change to a point it's impossible to tell what your issue actually is

[leaden bridge]

He kills a bunch of people and shits all over and he had yharon helping him through it all

[plucky juniper]

which is to say do Fucked-up failed resurrected dragons in the dungeon that yharon created with the help of the cult

[raven brook]

Like this message alone, right

[plucky juniper]

THATS NOT WHAT IM SAYING

does yharon even know that

[west plume]

okay

[plucky juniper]

point is

YES

[west plume]

Yes

[plucky juniper]

we know its impossible

[agile matrix]

cal devs fail to fucking comprehend a sentence unless they write it i am in Hell

[west plume]

?

[agile matrix]

im mad. i should step away but i want to hold a proper discussion

[eager bluff]

and you say you dislike ad hominem get the fuck out with this

[plucky juniper]

my point is to please DEMONSTRATE THIS by showing failed attempts to counteract this

[plucky juniper]

Thats what you're doing as well

[agile matrix]

"whyd you shoot a gun" he said to the guy who got swisscheesed

[west plume]

why would yharon let any of his dragon homunculi in the shape of his old comrades live exactly

[leaden bridge]

Yharon and yharim don't meaningfully do any different amount of things because for the context of the narrative they might as well be the same entity once the crusade starts and anything before that isn't much narratively meaningful except, funnily enough, yharon's racism and his prolongation of dragons forever

[plucky juniper]

probably out of shame like

[agile matrix]

Yharim does more than The Very Important Guy Responsible For The Draconic Race Not Sputtering Out

[raven brook]

It seems to imply the issue is that Yharon dosen't do anything right now

but throughout the argument the point has also been

• Yharon's domain is too narrow and cliche
• Yharon's actions don't reflect his domain
• Yharon isn't a good paragon of his domain (?)
• Yharon's actions being petty and selfish don't fit with how important of a character he is
• Yharon's motivation is driven purely by one thing (Idrm exactly what it was)

[leaden bridge]

Eitherway the amount of things he does or does not do have nothing to do with the whole rebirth part of this debacle

[west plume]

Hello completely mindless shell in the vague shape of Zeratros! How do you do today?

[spare pier]

I literally get your point exactly, I just think you don't understand what you're saying, and specially are not considering the fact that Yharon wasn't Turbo Genocidal Hitler from the get-go

[plucky juniper]

thats not MY point

[agile matrix]

you dont understand what you're saying

---

i am making a demonic expression at my monitor right now

[leaden bridge]

yeah the thing important guy responsible for the draconic race not sputtering out did is being responsible for the draconic race not sputtering out. How is this an issue?

[spare pier]

He was kinda unfitting for the role of Rebirth, but who's going to question the guy who literally holds their entire society together when he's fine enough

[leaden bridge]

he doesn't have to be directly and personally responsible for multiple events

[agile matrix]

okay imagine you're a general
i show you a nuke or i show you one million missiles

which do you choose

[plucky juniper]

okay like

WHERE DID THIS ARGUMENT START

what are we even talking about

[raven brook]

Can you please stop using this analogy

[agile matrix]

i need to phrase this in fuckin. metaphor.

[leaden bridge]

A million missiles ate more useful

Also stop using this analogy it does not make any sense

[plucky juniper]

what is sticker bablbing about? what is everyone else doing?

[west plume]

yharon is probably responsible for why the aerie is auric dragons and their attuned only but i don't think the racism fits rebirth either

[agile matrix]

do not say i am babbling i will actually say things i regret

[plucky juniper]

i dont evne know

IM SORRY STICKER

i feel like we've all lost the plot

[spare pier]

The thing is your analogy is wrong. It's more like

What if I gave you 100 thousand missiles or infinite missiles

[agile matrix]

i said a bit back that yharon, dragon of rebirth, does not feel rebirth, he feels like a flamethrower with a medicpack

[plucky juniper]

why are we doing multiple analogies? and why are we just ignoring them and inserting our own analogies

[leaden bridge]

Okay but why does he have to feel like rebirth

[plucky juniper]

i dont tihnk ya'll are even thinking

[leaden bridge]

He doesn't. He doesn't embody the concept of rebirth. He's a jerk who can revive people

[west plume]

this conversation makes no sense and i think you two (overdone and sticker) should clarify your point in a well-worded paragraph or two

[spare pier]

Because Sticker's analogy is "what is better, Rebirth or something else?"

The answer is always Rebirth because it allows you to have everything else forever

[agile matrix]

that is, in my eyes, not good character design

[leaden bridge]

idt that's true

[spare pier]

Ok

Cool

Why?

[leaden bridge]

it could be true for reasons but it is not inherently true of this

like if anything it's just basic subversion

[agile matrix]

him being a jerk that revives people is entirely fine as a character... if that was not tied to one domain that could have way way way way way more put behind it outside of "a dude that revives people"

[west plume]

wut other magical powers should rebirth have in your opinion

[raven brook]

So once again what is the actual issue

Please just like, make an actual paragraph

Because at first, i thought the issue was the domain itself

[agile matrix]

okay let me type

[raven brook]

and this message possibly implies that

However, your comments afterwards seemed to indicate it wasn't the Domain, but rather the Character

[leaden bridge]

domains r a very meaningless construct outside of the very specific narrative of calamity lore I don't really see the issue. You imply there's wasted potential but there really isn't because what a domain is or does is already arbitrarily written to help the narrative

[west plume]

shards are privilege and they are not necessarily reflective of who gets them because not everyone gets the privilege they deserve. yharon is mr. patriarchy and he decides on basically every basic level who and what deserves Continuing because he has the privilege to do so, which was granted randomly. yharon is totally undeserving. that is the point and the commentary

[plucky juniper]

okay
my intended point is that yharon rn is pretty lame, and is character-wise just "I am an racist asshole who used his power only for his kin, and have reared someone else to do my work"
but i think you can personally do more than that. I want Yharon to have canonically attempted to undo the Gods and attempt to recreate dragons from the, say, souls and remmnants of the gods themselves, using his powers alongside the assistance of the Draconic Cult.

You pointed out that Yharon apparently already knows the ins-and-outs of revival, and thus cant actually bring back the auric dragons and already knows this, but i personally think it might be better for him to learn this much late. He might not know everything about the domain he is using, and thus has to learn the limits of his domain (by causing horrific experiments that ultimately fail in the end).

[west plume]

in a world where yharon wasn't randomly granted privilege then the current one wouldn't exist. in a world where yharon perfectly embodied rebirth and was granted it based on his personality, then the current one also wouldn't exist

[plucky juniper]

this isnt really deliberately respective of lore, this is just me saying "I tihnk it'd be more neat if Yharon tried to actually resurrect dragons after they got god-zucced, and failed in the end, in order to convey the point that, yeah the Draconic Age is never coming back."

[west plume]

You pointed out that Yharon apparently already knows the ins-and-outs of revival, and thus cant actually bring back the auric dragons and already knows this, but i personally think it might be better for him to learn this much late. He might not know everything about the domain he is using, and thus has to learn the limits of his domain (by causing horrific experiments that ultimately fail in the end).
i think this already applies and he has already practiced. he just wouldn't let dragon skinsuits resembling his long dead friends without their domains, memories or personality wander around. the thing with the dragon cult idea is mostly that it depends on yharon showing vulnerability and hubris and breaking character by Allowing a failure, something outside of his control, to continue existing

i think it shows that it's been quite a while since the dragons were wiped out and yharon does not even talk about reviving the auric dragons that he doesn't have much faith in the idea no more

[plucky juniper]

like i get that you want to correct my lore understanding but thats NOT THE POINT

my point is

[west plume]

i do not see where i am misunderstanding

[plucky juniper]

it'd be more interesting story-wise for this to happen than "Yharon already knows he cant undo the damage"

[west plume]

okey

[leaden bridge]

Inclined to agree

[plucky juniper]

also it might allow for cool fights with fucked up dragon-recreations

[spare pier]

I disagree with this because it takes away the gravitas of his decision. Yharon didn't choose to start the crusade because he thought it could bring back his era, he chose to do so because he wanted to avenge them. It was never for them, it was for him.

[plucky juniper]

eh

i think its doable

it doesnt entirely take away from that gravitas

and like

[spare pier]

It doesn't, but it's not what I want to focus on with Yharon's story

[plucky juniper]

it can still convey that point anyways

[spare pier]

The Crusade services no one. It was never for the dragons, it was for Yharon. If he started the Crusade thinking he could bring back his people, this is not the case

[plucky juniper]

i also personally dont jive with yharon being a selfish brat, i more prefer if he was a pitable monster

[spare pier]

He knows he can't bring them back, he knows that won't do anything

[plucky juniper]

i prefer pitable monsters to selfish brats in terms of villains

[spare pier]

And he still does it.

[spare pier]

None of what I just said changes this

[plucky juniper]

its especially important to me becasue yharim is ALSO just a foolish guy who perpetuates a pointless crusade

like both yharon and yharim are, to me, too similar motivationally

and i just dunno

[leaden bridge]

you know how hard it is to keep a war going for a 100 years

Not very actually if you allow a few breaks

[west plume]

for yharon to be pitiable he would have to be a sympathetic character

[eager bluff]

not inherently

[spare pier]

Anyways I'm not saying anything else because this is a cycle I'm tired of perpetrating

Person criticizes a character
I say that isn't the case
Person says their understanding
I say the loads of information I have
Oops I just talked everything about the character

I'm not going to engage in character discussion in this server anymore because it always ends like this. I'm lucky I held myself on a lot about Yharon still

All I ask is that you trust me to deliver something good

[raven brook]

Happens

Hey bestie can you drop all of the lore on everyopne's favorite character Mr. Penguin

He'll be very important to the snow biome update

[glacial rampart]

Dude. Fuck Yes.

[dusk laurel]

I am quite fond of Mr. Penguin

[west plume]

he lives in a very hot area and is transmasc in penguin terms

[spare pier]

We seriously need to stop talking about Cal Lore with people until we have a decent amount of things ingame because this has fucked us beyond belief

Do you have any idea how stressful it is to, every time you discuss something about your story, people talk about how you plan to address or fix something, and not how they are excited to see how you develop this character further?

Because that's this fucking chat

I don't hear people saying "I'm interested in seeing how Yharon develops!" they're saying "Yharon is boring he doesn't do anything"

Three years of this bullshit and hey look we are so insecure about our work we can't stand to see Fables content without getting cripplingly anxious!

Fucking hell

[west plume]

chill this one out and take it to the dev server so people don't harass you i think

[spare pier]

I'm just venting by this point

Eventually this will cease because I'm a good writer and I know it

Once I have things to actually show for it

[glacial rampart]

im not very active which i guess is the issue but im really interested in how it'll all develop when the time comes

[spare pier]

Thanks

I don't blame anyone here for this, btw

And I don't hold any contempt for the people who have criticized Calamity's writing before

If anything I'm blessed that there are people who even bother doing it to begin with

There are a lot of circumstances that made me this insecure about my work and none of them (besides the horse) are of any blame

[hoary cape]

The lore is awesome

[spare pier]

Thank you

[glacial rampart]

im not really good at offering like . insightful commentary on media but i do know that i really like the things done in the lore

[raven brook]

The only thing i go out of my way to never be positive about and just slandering is slime god but that's just my bit

[spare pier]

Man I should've listened to CIT

[raven brook]

You know how it goes

katana man image

[spare pier]

I give you SG because it's true and our direction pre-fabsolution was bad

It was the best we could do at the time but it was still bad

[glacial rampart]

is that the guy from rhythm heaven

[heavy zenith]

When making my videos, I am very much surprised at the details of certain things countless times. As well as the creativity needed to alter vanilla aspects of the game to work with the Calamity story. (Blood Moons, Evil Biome, among many others). No one requires you to go out of your way to make stories for a mod about a 2d sandbox game, but I think i speak for a lot of people when I say that all of your work is appreciated beyond belief. Thank you for your effort

[raven brook]

It was a product of its time yeah
Understandable and considering the circumstances, the best ya could do

The day slime god lore impresses me enough that i have to retire my role as #1 sg slanderer will be a crazy one

[west plume]

what if we made You into the slime god

[hoary cape]

Sg is clearly a peak being

[raven brook]

I do love alot of the lore but i feel thats a given and you know me well enough to know the parts im extra autistic about

😭

[heavy zenith]

A paragon, even

[hoary cape]

Paladin*

It's a paladin being now

[heavy zenith]

Oop

[spare pier]

This will take a while I still don't really know what I'm doing with them exactly

[raven brook]

I hate ghouls! Becomes a ghoul
I hate titans! Becomes a tiyan
I hate slime g

[glacial rampart]

i hate league of legends! b

[raven brook]

Good.

There is no limit to the slander

[fiery meadow]

I think Cal's writing would get a lot better criticism of the story being told existed proper instead of only as hearsay or devs ranting in the lore chat
Because that's how everyone has gotten the story presented to them, through incomplete snapshots of characters and their arcs + anything any dev says, no matter how contradictory or not final it is

[plucky juniper]

yea honestly i think madelines right here

because now that i think about it

[fiery meadow]

If you told a random person about Noxus, they would have literally no clue who he is or how important he is to the story

[heavy zenith]

Its hard to keep track of dev confirmations imo

[plucky juniper]

...i like the lore, from yharim's limited AND biased perspective more than what its supposed to be

[spare pier]

Yeah, this is obvious, the implementation of the story rn is subpar

[fiery meadow]

If you told someone about Xeroc, they would only assume he killed a dragon and held a trial where he dangles a prize that he swiftly denies in favor of a rock

[plucky juniper]

thats. gonna be tough as fuck for me reconcile with what is said

and often

from what ive seen

[fiery meadow]

No moral dillemna or greater story

Which is a shame because the pieces are there for so much more

[plucky juniper]

devs dont even entirely agree on the direction of the lore

[heavy zenith]

Just do a plot twist at the end and people will go nuts lmao

[west plume]

we are working on this and i am FORCING the lorewriters to make ME full descriptions of everything with public or private tags and things to implement

[plucky juniper]

like ive seen triangle and stip argue over like the draconic cult not having access to something called dragon transformation magic that im not even sure is canon

[west plume]

Sadly it looks like I'll need to shock Madeline a few more times with electricity for her to give me the Yharon and Auric Shard file....

[glacial rampart]

freddy five night

[heavy zenith]

No, no. He's got a point

[dusk laurel]

i was gonna try to write something longer and more meaningful but i forgot that im not really capable of that (and also its past midnight for me), so i just wanted to say that your story is most of the reason ive stayed in this community and it keeps drawing me back, its one of the most engaging and fleshed out settings ive read despite it not being in a finished state

[plucky juniper]

all of this is still to say tho

i think your lore is wonderful, even despite my personal gripes

you have done absolutely splendid work with the lore

[glacial rampart]

one complaint though, theres not enough gorilla commentary. I'd like to know more about the gorilla ecosystem in the heartlands. /j

[south relic]

How do you pronounce “Azafure” and “Aerie”?

[plucky juniper]

aeries a real word btw

[south relic]

Oh, I didn't know that. English isn't my first language, so...

[hoary cape]

I pronounce azafure as ah zah fur

[leaden bridge]

azafure is pronounced a za fu re

[hoary cape]

It could be aye zah fur though

Because of the e

[leaden bridge]

This is true

[hoary cape]

I don't pronounce that e at the end smh it's clearly silent

[south relic]

I used to pronounce it “アザフレ” Is this close to it?

[hoary cape]

What the e is pronounced this is a crime

[west plume]

WHAT

[west plume]

this would be correct though

[hoary cape]

Removing all of syrups electrons

[south relic]

Thanks for reading it aloud!

[spare pier]

WHAT

[plucky juniper]

this is a reference to the fact that yharim only cared about calamitas for her destructive power

[hoary cape]

The city is friends with benefits

[spare pier]

The Auric Shard document is there...

[west plume]

huh

has it been an entire month since then

[spare pier]

Apparently so

[west plume]

yeah actually

gulp

[plucky juniper]

help my intrusive thoughts are getting in

what the hell is a-an

what

is

an

[dusk laurel]

what

[plucky juniper]

i cant madeline went on a rant about being too open!

-# what is an auric shard

[west plume]

Nuh uh uh... you'll have to wait until the lore is ingame

[hollow pivot]

Why is the e pronounced like é is?

[plucky juniper]

very well

[feral skiff]

Lore Statements?
No, In-Game First!

[dusk laurel]

Sorry, but my sources indicate to me that I am unable to answer your question at this hour, as I am made of sticks and stone.

[plucky juniper]

tossing the sticks and stones into the actively erupting kilauea

[hollow pivot]

How hard is it to put souls in weapons?

[dusk laurel]

idk

i think it depends

[west plume]

can you put a soul into a weapon? no? it's that hard

[hollow pivot]

What about all the weapons with mech souls in them?

[plucky juniper]

SHPC???

draedon did not revolutionize soul technology for you to slander him

[hollow pivot]

The Terra Blade has 60 souls in it.

[west plume]

that immediately spits them out tho

[plucky juniper]

yea but ya get the point

it does store them, but ya

[west plume]

i wouldn't count it as You putting the souls in more than whatever is in the altar deciding to help you by making a weapon that absorbs souls in the form of the Night's Edge

i don't think The Player could craft a night's edge capable of becoming true with their bare hands. thats just my headcanon tho

[hollow pivot]

“Headcanon” Are you not a writer?

[west plume]

i am a programmer and i force the writers to do things

i try to fact check and relay lorewriter statements here and talk here sometimes because i like cal lore

[hollow pivot]

What about the Hallowed mining tools with souls?

[west plume]

i believe it's just a god metal that is especially good at trapping souls

[hollow pivot]

Is Ectoplasm souls?

[west plume]

ectoplasm isn't a soul. it's more like the skin of one

ghosts create their own flesh when they can't possess something and have unfinished business in cal lore

so you're harvesting ghost flesh to use in your designs rather than the soul puppeting it

[hollow pivot]

What are Essences?

Like Essence of Eleum, Havoc, etc

[west plume]

idk. materials

they're not really well-explained or discussed

[hollow pivot]

Are they more gameplay than anything else?

[hollow pivot]

What about the Flamethrower?

[west plume]

wut

[hollow pivot]

https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Flamethrower

[hollow pivot]

It's got Iron, Gun Parts, and Souls of Fright.

[west plume]

idk about that one :p

it uses souls because it is progression gated

you should probably assume 'gameplay' for things we didn't explicitly make unless told otherwise, which is why i want more ingame lore integration

[plucky juniper]

i dunno about you

cosndiering

[sacred pilot]

We do know that Havoc is basically chaos.

[plucky juniper]

you gotta be fucking kidding me youtube is recommending me a jarhead sequel well after ive seen folding ideas's videos on jarhead sequels

[sacred pilot]

According to the Devil's Devastation's flavor text.

[plucky juniper]

[sacred pilot]

Chaos in the like.

Greek sense.

Not the "lack of laws" chaos.

[leaden bridge]

They're clearly just magical energies

It's in the name

[west plume]

liquid havoc

liquid cold

[plucky juniper]

liquid snake

[west plume]

solid cold

[plucky juniper]

actually

[long bloom]

liquid black

[plucky juniper]

why not rework the essences to be associated with the elementals

[west plume]

idk! bother madeline or stip about it

[sacred pilot]

Yes. With purpose and stuff.

[long bloom]

there would need to be 2 more

[plucky juniper]

hear me out on this

[long bloom]

though living shards would be easy enough to retheme into essence of life

[lucid wigeon]

desert and uh

ocean?

[sacred pilot]

I'm guessing the three essences are like.

[plucky juniper]

how many elementals do we know of

[sacred pilot]

The three states of entropy.

[long bloom]

eleum could go to anahita

[lucid wigeon]

5?

[long bloom]

heat, earth, water, nature, air

[plucky juniper]

as in, the base elementals and not of their constituent elementals

[sacred pilot]

Havoc is entropy. Eleum is stasis. Sunlight is transition.

[plucky juniper]

okay gotcha

thats a funny way of entropy considering the endstate of entropy is the heat death

byeah

gotcha so

there would have to be five essences

[long bloom]

i think they're just random bullshit from a 10 year old mod

[plucky juniper]

which is def a whole lot

[west plume]

water, air, earth (there's a real one) and fire + grass type

[sacred pilot]

Havoc, ???, Eleum, Vitality, Sunlight.

[long bloom]

forgor silva 💔

[sacred pilot]

Not sure what would be the one for Earth.

[sacred pilot]

So?

[lucid wigeon]

isn't silva a god?

[long bloom]

both

[west plume]

she's literally at the bottom of the ocean

[plucky juniper]

Essence of Sunlight was literally called Essence of Cinder once 💔

[long bloom]

she still exists

[sacred pilot]

It is literally.

One big DS reference.

[west plume]

dead as hell 🗣️

[lucid wigeon]

cinder?

Gwyn_,_Lord_Of_Cinder.mp3

[plucky juniper]

and. i think in this hypothetical rework it would have to be renamed one more fucking time goddammit

HOLY SHIT

[west plume]

that's why yo shoes raggedy 🗣️ that's why yo silva dead 🗣️ dead as hell 🗣️ what wyrms she blessing 🗣️

[plucky juniper]

apparently according to the calamity wiki this was its earliest sprite

😭

[lucid wigeon]

(no embed, damn it)

[long bloom]

[sacred pilot]

Eh I think Sunlight is good enough.

[plucky juniper]

i am not joking that raggedy S is apparently the earliest sprite of Essence of Sunlight

[plucky juniper]

these are essence of eleum and havoc respectively

[west plume]

i also don't think there's a constituent elemental for sunlight unless you want to make a silly association between primordial light and brimmy

[plucky juniper]

oh fuck

discord...

curse you...

also eleum is the only thing that hasnt been renamed

[west plume]

elumphant

[long bloom]

air

[plucky juniper]

and it probably needs to be renamed because i just learned from wiki.gg that its also a straight reference to Dark Souls AGIAN

WTF

[sacred pilot]

Sunlight is like 800 things.

[plucky juniper]

ARE ALL OF THESE ESSENCES JUST BLATANT DARK SOULS REFERENCES

[sacred pilot]

Wind, light, fire, electricity...

[plucky juniper]

WTF

[sacred pilot]

People are finally waking up to realizing Calamity has like.

[plucky juniper]

and one of them still is by virtue of being called sunlight

[sacred pilot]

800 Soulsborne references.

[long bloom]

!wiki gael's greatsword

[pliant island]

https://calamitymod.wiki.gg/wiki/Gael's_Greatsword

[west plume]

calamity fans are slowly realizing that calamity is every fantasy setting every dev has ever liked

[sacred pilot]

Electricity in Dark Souls is associated with sunlight.

[sacred pilot]

I mean yeah but still.

[long bloom]

[sacred pilot]

I may be stupid.

[terse moss]

as it should be

[agile matrix]

yharon, under his current lore explanation, exists as a rough antithesis of his domain.
despite being the dragon of rebirth and a cornerstone for the world to be where it is, he is stalwart and stagnant on how things will be and wants no difference. this is good character design! a character being incredibly poor for their role is a completely acceptable thing
my issue stems from the fact that his job as Rebirth entirely bases itself around Yharon reviving his fellow dragon. despite being tasked as the guy of rebirth, **he does not associate himself with Rebirth any further. **

yharon is allowed to be an incredibly important character, and he is outside of this role.
he is invaluable for the Crusade, he still causes monumental effects to the world, he is still someone to be feared.
even with the concept of draconic rebirth being invaluable to the dragons, Yharon does not need to facilitate that to be relevant.
if, instead, the way to revive was something arbitrary such as "bring the body of the dragon to a rock in the aerie", i believe that almost nothing would change with Yharon as a character.
thus, my issue presents itself: removing the aspect of "rebirth" from his character would not change his character in any meaningful way, and i believe action should be made to move him from it.

i believe, from a hypothetical standpoint, that if Yharon (as a character) was not modified whatsoever and their domain was changed to another, the domain of Change would suit his current lore beautifully.
Yharon exists as a force that acts. if the world tries to act against him, he will simply fight back and overpower it.
while change naturally happens and cannot be stopped, Yharon attempts to halt this process entirely, cancelling this differences to the best of his ability.
Fovos (and by extension Xeroc) would be the first massive change for the world, the first change he could not reverse, contrasting how he acts with his domain nearly perfectly.
being unable to set the scales even, he would find himself unwilling to change with the times, eventually boiling over and causing him to make possibly his first selfless Change: rescuing Yharim

Yharim exists as the best representation of Rebirth between the two of them within the base mod's lore, in my most honest opinion.
rising from the literal ashes, he acts as a catalyst for Yharon to change the world to fit their needs.
he goes from a nameless nobody to being reborn as Godseeker.
shifting steadily from another face to the crest of warbanners, Yharim is emboldened by Yharon to steadily act upon the latter's wishes under the guise of the former. under Yharon's guide (and eventually his own decisions), Yharim begins what he considers fixing the world of strife and of pain.
this satiates both goals of both parties; whereas Yharon (in my hypothetical) would only want the world to return to a world where he is known, Yharim contrasts this takes the concept of change and actually tries to make a difference in the world.
eventually, however, from Yharon’s oppressive force or Yharim's corruption of self, he aligns himself with the goals of Yharon under a new interpretation, scrubbing the world clean of as many gods as he could reach.
leaving people leaderless and terrified, he changes the world back right to how it was with Fovos and the dragons.

to summarize: i consider the role of Yharon as "Dragon of Rebirth" to be unrequired for the story of Yharon to shine.
relying on his domain to provide all his importance simply puts him into the stance of having one objective.
i believe (however significant it may be) giving Yharon the domain of Change would more suitably contrast his character and more effectively align with his current lore.
the domain of Change also aligns excellently with how Yharim's character (as of current) evolves, and allows more depth to be put into their characters.
tl;dr: Yharon does not need Rebirth to be a good character.

this has been my ted talk

this entire section uses all but 2 characters in my nitro message cap

i am entirely open to conversation about it. do not ad hominem me or take words out of my mouth, i want to discuss

[long bloom]

wall of text has awoken

[agile matrix]

i was upset sob

i needed my point clear and my words clearer

please someone read this . i spent like 2 hours on it

(45m of that was me not being happy but w/e)

[long bloom]

im tryign

[agile matrix]

ping me once you have a respons im gonna go get some food

[long bloom]

are you aware that yharim's goal from the very beginning was to kill all gods
(genuine question, no hidden meaning)

[agile matrix]

i was under the impression that in the beginning he acted with neutral-positive intent where he wanted to kill all the evil gods

[mossy epoch]

Hi, Until a while ago I didn't know that Calamitas is aroace. Could someone tell me about this kind of lore of the other characters? The only thing I know is what the game tells you xd

[agile matrix]

eventually though his definition of evil started becoming "if you're a god, you're evil"

[untold forge]

fhvejhaksjhdksghiuetgy zjdhfkjhsetkjhsadkfjhj i love when characters are broken down like this and shine new light on them

[long bloom]

he started by killing the evil gods, but the endgame was always total deicide

[agile matrix]

hmmm i see.

[untold forge]

statis and braelor are a gay couple, they are briefly mentioned in some of the boss lore entries, i cannot remember if they were cutting their planned content from the mod or not tho

outside of that erm...

[long bloom]

the second pin contains a document compiling all known lore, both in game and not (subject to change)

[long bloom]

they'll be added Eventually™

[untold forge]

eventually ™

[agile matrix]

my theorem still sits i belieeve. instead of him steadily aligning with yharon's ideals, he had a different interpretation

[long bloom]

also, how would you go about associating yharon with rebirth to your satisfaction

since you said currently it's not enough

[agile matrix]

if he was 100% staying rebirth 100% forever as i presume he will, i presume that allowing him to attempt to force the renewal of the world in a method that benefits him would substancially improve upon his character

[long bloom]

hmm

[agile matrix]

instead of being the ferryman for draconic rebirth, he could instead also branch out into the effects of "giving best face", for lack of a better term

using the old metaphor, burning down the forest because it didnt give enough shade, placing new saplings, but trimming them to grow to give the most shade, just so he can stay cool

[long bloom]

i do not understand what you mean

[agile matrix]

do you know how Yharim lies most of the time, by abstaining from mentioning his losses but broadcasting his victories

[long bloom]

yes

[agile matrix]

Yharon doing that but in a more aggressive manner would work a lot better in my eyes; scorching any sources of failure and preventing their spread while allowing any information about the dragons to be nothing be good

[long bloom]

cool idea but how does that tie into the concept of rebirth

[agile matrix]

hrmm how do i phrase it .

scrapbook idea but knowledge is defined by the victors of war in most cases. yharon would steadily seep better ideas into those who believe them, more or less letting them live again in the word of the people

even after the dragons are all dead, Yharon (and more directly Yharim) can let their remaining existence be that of purely "these guys were incredible and had no flaw", similarly to how Yharon let the dragons live how they wished

[agile matrix]

intended around this point (which is a dev statement but its fine)

[long bloom]

i see

[agile matrix]

yharon and yharim both being lying champions; power duo

[robust osprey]

mreoww

[agile matrix]

(i also do want some more stuff about them being so closely tied to each other that they influence each others action indirectly. yharon helping yharim rid the world of the "godly plague", while yharim indirectly influencing yharon in some way)

[sullen vale]

im reading the lore right now while also reading your conversation and its kind of like reading the minecraft end credits after beating the dragon

[agile matrix]

yea that entire essay sourced from my disdain towards ppl misunderstanding my point

i consider Yharon very highly, and believe that he can prosper even without the domain of rebirth solely by being a force o' fuckin nature

also because the domain of change kinda fitting with entropy and calamitas having a good few stuff based Around entropy is really really good in my eyes :)

hopefully a dev sees my opinions and responds kindly :) i really like their work and want it to be Cooler to let them in tandem be Awesomer

[long bloom]

anyway, my response to the whole:
while i can see how you came to this conclusion, and it would be a worthy change in another context, i have reason to believe yharon being the dragon of rebirth will become very important to his character in the future. as it stands, i'll put my trust in archon to write an excellent rebirth of his character.

[agile matrix]

yeeeess. i trust in archon.

if yharon remains as important a character as they are currently, but does not need himself stapled to the role of Rebirth Guy, i will be satiated

food tiem

[stiff berry]

bullies you and kills you to death

[agile matrix]

:(((((((((

[stiff berry]

🖕

ok that was mean im sorry

[agile matrix]

explodes

[fathom locust]

💥

[agile matrix]

i am srs abt devs responding though i know i made at least 1 upset

[stiff berry]

i haven't read the full conversation so i can't contribute anything unfortunately

[agile matrix]

tl;dr i called yharon auraless and then the misinformation mailway activated for 45 minutes until i was invited to just write a paragraph with my opinono

[stiff berry]

i saw the dogpile i was going to say something but lost the thought

[agile matrix]

trol

tad glad you didnt intervene i mighta smth Rude and i cannot slander my joat

[stiff berry]

pros of having spotty neuronal connection

[wanton pendant]

Wait.. Yharon can trans genders?

[wanton pendant]

Miku...

[limpid saddle]

why is her iris clovers

[wanton pendant]

She's Irish.

[split mortar]

I am backreading this and its hell torture to understand

[heavy zenith]

Do we know if Hog Wild is changing any Lore?

Lore Entries*

should clarify

[fathom locust]

the divine swine consumes an auric soul and becomes the omega supreme god and oneshots xeroc

[raven brook]

Its adding hog . Lore i Guess

[split mortar]

Oh i headcanoned souls made a skin layer when they were exposed for long ish periods of time hence why dungeon souls dropped em

[heavy zenith]

Hog. Wild? Lore even?

[raven brook]

Truly

[trim edge]

happy reuinion between yharim's soldiers and dungeon prisoners' souls when we craft the sirius

[limpid saddle]

moon lasers powered by civil war

[worthy sierra]

John pork coming to calamity real 2017

[cosmic zenith]

I'd say he is pitiable and has some sympathetic traits despite how awful he is

He lost his purpose, his kind and right to actually live. Ultimately, even the Crusade (which was greatly successful in its explicit goal) is but futile flailing around that will only make more people loathe those who Yharon mean to exalt

I think that's a key point to understand when it comes to the Deific Era

The auric dragons died the moment Xeroc ascended. Those that survive the war can still have meaningful interactions and impact history but, fundamentally, they are living on borrowed time.

[cosmic zenith]

I'd say this is moreso a fault of our inability to make themed updates than it is of writing itself

The whole lore of Ilmeris and its Incineration would be a lot more meaningful to the stoey than Vanilla Bestiary Rewrite, but it hasn't seen completion or the light of day yet

This becomes a much bigger problem because, while writing itself only demands the effort of the lore team and one programmer willing to implement it, making a thematic update takes the whole team working on a focused subject for several months

Speaking of this subject

[leaden bridge]

I can't believe you're confirming sky update rn

[cosmic zenith]

Please, for the love of God, remove dev statements from the Introductory Master Doc.

I don't care if it'll be barebones without them. The Introductory Master Doc should only have currently ingame content.

If you are to keep a record of outside game sources somewhere, dig to the center of the earth, throw it there and close the hole with lead.

[cosmic zenith]

Go on
I'm curious to see why you think so, and what your face will look like when our next update gets revealed

[feral skiff]

wait i thought the devs were okay with that

[cosmic zenith]

I personally am not

Dev statements are literally not canon

[leaden bridge]

Skyfolly chrysadia whatever this is one of like 3 jokes i can make in this server without getting booed off the stage and thrown tomatoes at i will keep it up

[cosmic zenith]

They are a preview of what we intend to implement, and so they are both unreliable and not an actual view of the story

Only ingame sources are canon

It's a gargantuan issue that we've sent this many dev statements and the vast majority of them still haven't been implemented

[cosmic zenith]

@tropic oak

[leaden bridge]

If it's not sky and it indeed is a themed update i rlly wouldn't know what it would be at that point. Something else new, I'd hope

[cosmic zenith]

There's plenty of themed updates to be had

I'm not gonna mention them because it'd make it easier to guess which one we're going with

I just hope we can pull through and deliver something cohesive, immersive and high-quality

[feral skiff]

i wish the programmers in specific the best of luck

they shall implement those thousands of lines effortlessly and without much troubleshooting

oh and i wish the rest of the dev team a pleasant time making The Calamitous Mod

[cosmic zenith]

Thank you!

[brazen coral]

https://tenor.com/view/calamity-terraria-yharon-jungle-dragon-pat-gif-10486467131489662312

[agile matrix]

i do like the aspect of selfcentered yharon losing purpose and just being entirely inable to handle that, mentally
like from a base standard, being inable to do your job because all your friends died permanently is not cool (but rlly good for character development)

[agile matrix]

anyways gonna bump this one more time and then continue from there

[cosmic zenith]

removing the aspect of "rebirth" from his character would not change his character in any meaningful way, and i believe action should be made to move him from it.

I dunno, I kinda disagree with that.Yharon's worldview and sense of self are, in my opinion, indissociable from his Rebirth domain. Yharon is the Dragon of Rebirth, and the Dragon of Rebirth is Yharon. There is some evidence of this, but it is mostly still secret.

One public evidence is that, without the weight of being responsible for the auric dragons' rebirth, Yharon would likely have become an entirely different individual. Viewing things through a more practical lens, if Yharon's body had to be carried to the Aerie for him to be rebirthed, it would have been a lot easier to kill him and absorb his soul.

[agile matrix]

in my hypothetical where i shifted him to domain of change i was under the assumption that since he holds domain over change, he would still likely work With draconic rebirth, he just isnt centered entirely around it

[trim edge]

other than having to exist for dragons to respawn, what abilities does yharon actually use related to his domain

[limpid saddle]

not dying when killed

he becomes an egg after death & reincarnates after a decade

[agile matrix]

none
hes a really good fire magician and he rezzes dragons when they die

[thick slate]

dragon of fire 2

[agile matrix]

apparently rezzing dragons is Good Enough for him to do so

[limpid saddle]

I mean what do you do with such a transient concept as rebirth

[agile matrix]

i had a 45 minute Talk about that yesterday!

[agile matrix]

scroll up from my this, i make a few mentions

[limpid saddle]

the prodigal rebirth thing is the phoenix, which is fire so they just kinda did that which I don't blame them for

[limpid saddle]

Oh I know I read it

[agile matrix]

summarize: Yharim was technically reborn

[cosmic zenith]

Let's go with your hypothetical scenario of Yharon being the Dragon of Change.

Yharon exists as a force that acts. if the world tries to act against him, he will simply fight back and overpower it.
while change naturally happens and cannot be stopped, Yharon attempts to halt this process entirely, cancelling this differences to the best of his ability.
Fovos (and by extension Xeroc) would be the first massive change for the world, the first change he could not reverse, contrasting how he acts with his domain nearly perfectly.
being unable to set the scales even, he would find himself unwilling to change with the times, eventually boiling over and causing him to make possibly his first selfless Change: rescuing Yharim

Yharon is not entirely stagnant nor would that be his first selfless change.

shifting steadily from another face to the crest of warbanners, Yharim is emboldened by Yharon to steadily act upon the latter's wishes under the guise of the former. under Yharon's guide (and eventually his own decisions), Yharim begins what he considers fixing the world of strife and of pain.
this satiates both goals of both parties; whereas Yharon (in my hypothetical) would only want the world to return to a world where he is known, Yharim contrasts this takes the concept of change and actually tries to make a difference in the world.

This would make Yharon a prominent force for change, which is a major shift of his character towards his natural domain - towards harmony. Meanwhile, as the Dragon of Rebirth, the Deific Era irreversibly destroys the harmony Yharon previously had with his domain, throwing him into a pitiable, hollow state that further opposes it.

Relying on his domain to provide all his importance simply puts him into the stance of having one objective.

I disagree that all of Yharon's relevance comes from Rebirth. As your example illustrates, he become irrelevant when you remove Rebirth, he simply becomes a different character.

[limpid saddle]

I just mean im trying to think more laterally

[agile matrix]

on your first point yeah reading back that was not selfless lol. in my example yharon did it just so he could exist for the better

[cosmic zenith]

If anything, the "Change" domain would be more suited for Yharim, and you wouldn't really want Yharon and Yharim too alike

[agile matrix]

on your second however, my argument is that his action of Change is more or less a providence action, just less nihilistic

he ( from what i see ) seems to want to raze the world of gods and return things to their neutral point so he shines brightest overall

he’s a very egotistical dragon, ive discovered that.

mostly my argument revolves around his minimal usage of his domain outside of one thing, from The Writer standpoint

[cosmic zenith]

I will only mention it and not explain it because I don't wanna reveal too much
But while Yharon is egotistical, being self-centered is not his primary flaw

[agile matrix]

while that one thing IS draconic rebirth, after he loses that he seemingly just does not involve himself further outside of exactly one very relevant character

[cosmic zenith]

That's moreso a matter of incompleteness than an inherent problem with the character imo

[agile matrix]

he kinda just does one really important thing for each Age (Draconic being Rebirth, Deific being Yharim, Current being Terrarian i guess) instead of a selection of important things (a la Yharim)

[agile matrix]

yeah i get that

[light linden]

hey stip I have a question

[cosmic zenith]

Go on

[light linden]

does auric ore only have a small amount of auric in it per block?

it requires an extreme amount of ore for an ingot compared to literally everything else

[leaden bridge]

parterraria calamity boards,,.,. mmm

shit this is lore

uhhhh

lore accurate parterraria calamity boards

[cosmic zenith]

Until further notice, that is a game mechanic

[real glen]

Terrarian is bad at forging

[light linden]

gotcha

wonder if my theory is correct then

[lucid wigeon]

Theorically its 12 ores per bar

You craft 5 with 60 ore and a fragment soul

I assume you'd use a lot of auric ore and the soul to condense all or that into 5 bars

[light linden]

that's still triple the amount for most ores

[stark flame]

How big would the planet Terraria be?

[long bloom]

shrug

[split mortar]

I headcanon earth sized

[mild obsidian]

So hear me out

Noelle Holiday VS Calamitas Death Battle

Ice Witch VS Fire Witch

[trim edge]

calamitas can also use snowgrave

[split mortar]

Noelle when calamitas snowgraves her

[wanton pendant]

I don't think Noelle can wipe cities off the map.

[split mortar]

Irrelevant

[trim edge]

bro hasn't seen weird route chapter 7

[limpid saddle]

no she has the illusive firegrave all the youtube thumbnails thought would be in chapter 3

[raven brook]

"wow is that hit character calamitas from calamity mod"
"yep thats me noelle holiday from hit game deltarune"

then the whale showed up

[young socket]

"WE NEED TO KILL THE WHALE" -Captain Ahab from Limbus Company

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, don't be silly he's from Bone.

[stark flame]

Where can I find the currently revealed lore of the game?

Is there any documentation or video?

[split mortar]

Pins has 2 docs
One stores all in game info and one is more meant to introduce people

[long bloom]

first pin compiles everything in the game as of 2.1

second pin compiles all known lore

[stark flame]

thank you

[cosmic zenith]

@long bloom Can you do this or let the other contributors know?

[long bloom]

yeah i sent it in the gc to decide a course of action but nobody's responded

[cosmic zenith]

Alright, thank you

[long bloom]

also tyrant has been barely reachable for weeks

[cosmic zenith]

I believe it could be as simple as just leaving a link at the bottom of the doc with a massive disclaimer

It's just not adequate to have dev statements be something people are introduced to along with canon lore

[long bloom]

link to what

[cosmic zenith]

I assume you guys want to keep a record of dev statements somewhere

It'd be a link to that

[long bloom]

yeah there's a sources page with screenshots

very incomplete though

@split mortar collect my sources

[split mortar]

Sorry

[light linden]

hey stip I have another question if you don't mind

[long bloom]

you don't need to apologize

[cosmic zenith]

Sure

[split mortar]

I have done fuckall for months when i joined this project to help and add to it i think it is at least a bit warranted i apologise for

[long bloom]

so just to clarify, having dev statements is fine if there's a disclaimer and sources? not really sure what this means

[agile matrix]

stip appears to phrase it like dev statements are toxic waste for Specifically the lore doc

[long bloom]

yeah that's why i'm clarifying

[agile matrix]

since dev statements are not properly... filtered? timmy devtime may say that Yharim really liked KFC but thats not said ingame, that was timmy devtime

[cosmic zenith]

Dev statements and other outside-game contents should be outside the Introductory Master Doc. You can keep them, but in a separate doc, which you can keep a link to in the Master doc as long as there is a fully explanatory disclaimer.

[long bloom]

there's also situations of what do we do about characters that absolutely exist but are never mentioned, like shakidou

[long bloom]

hm

[cosmic zenith]

Purge from the doc. Simple as that.

[split mortar]

Sources tab revamp?

[cosmic zenith]

If a character is not mentioned ingame, it does not exist canonically.

[plucky juniper]

holy shit shakidou the god of emptiness is being emptied from the doc

[long bloom]

if all dev statements are purged, the doc becomes functionally the same as the reference doc

so what's even the point

[cosmic zenith]

Isn't the point of the introductory doc to make the lore more digestible?

[plucky juniper]

i feel like its going to be harder considering

yharimlore items

[cosmic zenith]

As of right now, someone reading all ingame sources and thoughtfully interpreting them would know that Yharim is an unreliable narrator, but would not truly know much of alternate perspectives. That is fine.

[plucky juniper]

that just makes it more annoying to correct people

[light linden]

are there any auric dragons that we know of in lore that couldn't fly?

[cosmic zenith]

What do you intnd to correct?

[cosmic zenith]

That you know of, no. More accurately, Yharon, Vetrasyl and Zeratros all fly.

[split mortar]

I would imagine gloomborf

Oh

Dragon of being a fat fuck could fly?

[plucky juniper]

people occasionally pop into this channel and get understandably confused when people call one of the major sources of lore a "chronic liar who lies about everything"

[cosmic zenith]

You can mention this in the doc! There's enough evidence ingame to support it.

[long bloom]

it is mentioned

[plucky juniper]

i think it should at least be noted that Yharim is highly biased and is willing to outright lie or exclude critical-need-to-know info

[cosmic zenith]

I agree

[long bloom]

it's literally the third sentence of the synopsis

[tropic oak]

and entirely bolded

[light linden]

I mean

I've seen gluttony not be described as fat before

e.g. digimon

[agile matrix]

thats not even their name :(

that was Made Up

[split mortar]

Wdym

Tell me their name then

[agile matrix]

Gloomborf is not the actual name of the Dragon of Gluttony

we dont know it

[plucky juniper]

yknow what for my earth-based auric dragon oc im just gonna make her not have wings

[split mortar]

Eh seems it is Gloomborf to me

[agile matrix]

make em a worm with legs

[long bloom]

yes it is

[agile matrix]

i have been told the name was Made Up

[split mortar]

By who

[long bloom]

i'm /j

[split mortar]

Coward commit to the bit

[dusk laurel]

r we gaslighting stickerbored or smth what

[split mortar]

Yeah

[tropic oak]

GLOOMBORF IS REAL TO ME

[split mortar]

IT IS GLOOMBORF IN MY HEART

[agile matrix]

heh

[plucky juniper]

at least its not the fake illmeris ghost soldier prank a lore writer did in update talk who also happened to be called YHORM

i cant believe we fell for that

when his name as literally fucking yhorm

[dusk laurel]

yhorm actually had good writing

[split mortar]

That was fucking devious of stip

[dusk laurel]

thats why i fell for it mostly

[split mortar]

same

I was doubtful cause bruh its fucking yhorm but also the writing was peak

[agile matrix]

guy called Ynam

and he was born from blood

[magic epoch]

you should know this! it's just in a google document only accessible in the pins of the lore discussion channel and can otherwise only be assumed without certainty through the in-game lore, which the document also says is the intended experience!

[plucky juniper]

hmm

this should be the FIRST pin

[long bloom]

[magic epoch]

wouldn't change anything methinks

[plucky juniper]

then how about this

[robust osprey]

meow

[magic epoch]

rename the channel to #lore-discussion-yharims-biased

[robust osprey]

#yharim-bias-discussion

[plucky juniper]

Whatever you do, please take literally everything Yharim says with a grain of salt.

The guy straight up commited a genocide, which was not at all needed, and is still of the belief that this genocide was not only good, but needs to be finished up. He is also prone to lying, as indicated by Calamitas's items.

[robust osprey]

wrong

yharim is righr

and good

[magic epoch]

My point was that it wouldn't work because people don't read pins first thing

[robust osprey]

you have been affected by the evil god propaganda

[wanton pendant]

Yharim killed all those children for the bit, your honour.

[dusk laurel]

i would forgive yharim if he killed wwg :/

[robust osprey]

just think about it

how many british and french people did yharim kill

[wheat walrus]

nya

[robust osprey]

mreow

[dusk laurel]

mrrow

[magic epoch]

0

[dusk laurel]

thats right

[robust osprey]

wrong

1

he killed wwg

but he revived

[light linden]

@wanton pendant confirm?

[robust osprey]

he is a literal god

[wanton pendant]

Nothing can stop me.

[split mortar]

Same

[wanton pendant]

Nor am I British of French.

[robust osprey]

are you inmortal

[magic epoch]

A pinch of salt

[wanton pendant]

Your mortal salts cannot contain me.

[magic epoch]

it's an immortal pinch of salt

[dusk laurel]

[robust osprey]

nilla vs wwg

who wins

[magic epoch]

iedont know who that is

wwg wins due to familiarity bias

[dusk laurel]

wtf

[magic epoch]

oh my bad

im a calamity player i don't read

i thought that was a character

[west plume]

hi nepeta

[robust osprey]

haii

:3

[cosmic zenith]

You guys are too gullible

[split mortar]

:(

[robust osprey]

we wanted to believe beacuse that would have been SO funny

[cosmic zenith]

True

And ultimately, it did spoil the rough structure of ghost dialogue

[robust osprey]

oh yeah

[cosmic zenith]

If people like Yhorm so badly, you can always make an addon for him

[robust osprey]

true

[light linden]

stip can I ask a question about auric dragons?

[long bloom]

yhormlamity

[robust osprey]

let's make the yhorm addon

[cosmic zenith]

Sure

[light linden]

there any of their bones in the heartlands?

[spare pier]

Hyperspecific worldbuilding question #375

[cosmic zenith]

Well, what do you think?

[split mortar]

Your bones will not be within the confines soon

[light linden]

sorry

[spare pier]

It's fine it's just that like

[trim edge]

well there were for a moment when yharon came and tried to kill us

[spare pier]

It's the same thing as always

[light linden]

I've got a larger reason for asking

I'm not sure if dragons leave corpses

[spare pier]

We don't have that thought out

And you're free to headcanon whatever you want

[split mortar]

I believe they do because its cool as shit imagining how that would be handled by any civilisations that consistently has a dragon ruling it like chrysadia imo

[light linden]

I'm asking for my idea for a dragon of tectonics

where their corpse is used as effectively a gigantic wall for a city

[spare pier]

I mean, yeah

If you want that to happen, then it can happen

We don't have every minute detail about the world thought out, legit just headcanon whatever you want if it's not specified

[cloud ibex]

imagine agnus living in a church built off of the corpse of the dragon of death because that's where he was when he ascended and got rooted to the ground

[spare pier]

We aren't going to maul you because actually dragons don't leave corpses behind

[plucky juniper]

there probably had to be a god (aside from Xeroc) who had genuine respect for the dragon they used to ascend

[light linden]

otonilou did iirc

[plucky juniper]

i mean, considering that apparently vetrasyl was a good fella in his time

[light linden]

I believe silva was chosen by the life dragon?

[plucky juniper]

it just makes sense

[wanton pendant]

Humourous possibility: Dragon of Flame respected Providence's destructive tendencies.

[west plume]

the dragon of flame the entire time he was being murdered: OH GOD THIS PAIN IS UNBEARABLE MAKE IT STOP AHHHHH

[wanton pendant]

Why doesn't he use the flames to cauterize the injuries? Is he stupid?

[noble falcon]

Why didn’t he just fly away from the murder guys
He is a dragon, dragons do that
Is he stupid

[wanton pendant]

Yeah but it was in H-E-Double Gun.