lore-discussion

[hollow blade]

(this is a joke)

True

[terse moss]

We made it like 2 days

[split mortar]

[keen shuttle]

Wait how is yahrim stronger than yahron if his powers come from the dragon

[terse moss]

He has gear

Yharon doesn’t

I think that’s basically it

[keen shuttle]

Dang

[terse moss]

We need to give yharon a Glock

[keen shuttle]

Dareon truly is the goat

[split mortar]

Yharim is also cracked in general, the attunement mainly just lets him stay in his prime longer not an actual stat boost

[terse moss]

And like … combat boots

Make him an all terrain vehicle

[eager bluff]

why that just partially crippes him in close range

[terse moss]

It would be funny

[long bloom]

still need to add dragon of mind (with no associated god) and mizuaruna for dragon of tides (name not final)

[random mulch]

dragon of mind?

[split mortar]

Nebula pillar dragon

[long bloom]

yeah

wow automod actually did something

[hollow blade]

Yeah everytime I go on lore discussion I keep seeing yharim being compared LMAO

[terse moss]

I still think it’s funny we made it 2 whole days

That’s gotta be some kind of record

[light linden]

@spare piermind if I ask you a few questions?

[spare pier]

Sure go ahead

[light linden]

first of all, did draedon make any gear for specific people in lore other than Yharim and DoG?

e.g. permafrost?

[tropic oak]

xeroc

[light linden]

second of all, is luminite still just moon metal now that it has been stated that Fovos is from the Distortion?

and lastly, are the demons slated to get more lore and/or an npc in the future?

I noticed we got a decent amount of stuff but it feels just a bit like bedrock for something instead of the whole story

[wanton pendant]

Let us seize the crown of the demon king!

[light linden]

I'd prefer an npc similar in background to the goblin tinkerer personally

[long bloom]

answer my dms

[light linden]

prolly just a personal thing but I think calamity is tragically short on npcs who aren't tied to yharim directly

it's part of the reason I wanted the drunk princess to stay around but be de-fabsoled

[long bloom]

vanilla has enough town npcs tbh

[dusk laurel]

it doesnt need to be town npcs

calamity would benefit from roaming npcs

[long bloom]

this is true

[light linden]

I would like some new town npcs but explicitly ones that like calamity biomes

[eager bluff]

calamity would benefit from npcs

[light linden]

some roaming npcs would be cool too

[light linden]

e.g. if we do get a demon npc I'd want them to like the crags

[light linden]

hell I still think the concept of

well

not sure of the best way to describe this

like a wandering pilgrim for a god would be a cool idea

explicitly a god we don't fight to be specific

would be a way to show a different pov of yharim's actions earlier on

since earlier in the mod there's an npc who is very easy to miss if you don't know about them before hand and an npc who doesn't talk a hell of a lot about yharim

albeit I'm pretty sure the latter is changing

[random mulch]

it would be nice to have some ambient npcs / characters in the world, like with the god cultists idea triangle mentioned once

makes the world feel bigger

[light linden]

also obligatory "can we get an npc that talks about other continents please"

[random mulch]

i don't mind other continents not being very important

[light linden]

yes but they also exist in the lore yet are never mentioned in game

[dusk laurel]

thats called an unfinished mod

[light linden]

ik

[split mortar]

Permafrost will talk about one once the dialogue is added iirc

[dusk laurel]

also dialogue rewrite permafrost will mention atleast 1 continent

we dont need an npc specifically for this it can be thru multiple

[light linden]

I never said specifically for that

just I want an npc that does that

[gritty summit]

So,if Calamitas bushwhacks the player following the Yharon fight,would she open up with the Thunderdome,or some gargantuan city block razing spell?

[split mortar]

We see how she starts the fight at the start of the fight

[raw nest]

How will we enter the dragons aerie?

[split mortar]

We dunno

[barren mortar]

either portal or item

thats many, many years down the pipe

[long bloom]

we don't even know its state of existence

[barren mortar]

Many

Many

Years

[raw nest]

We do, we know that’s where Yharim is waiting for us as stated in the final lore item

[long bloom]

i mean
if it's like a physical location or dimension

draedon scanned the entire surface of terraria multiple times and nothing's there

[light linden]

I still think it's the inverse of the distortion

[dusk laurel]

wdym by this

im genuinely curious because youve said this before and i dont think youve explained

[raven brook]

Now that the scion's curio dialogue is on the wiki lol

I've heard tales of a palace somewhere...

My soul is made of jade, it's unbreakable! Just like the palace. You should go there sometime.

Jade palce mention guys noway.

Before gods quarreled or stars wept, it was the Old Duke's hunger that tore the first wound in the deep.

There's also this

Fucked up trying to figure out which one of the scion curio's lines are genuine lore hints and which are just skibidi ohio 67 bullshit

[languid badge]

scions curio single handedly doing more for old duke setup than anything else for any other boss besides exos

[raven brook]

Did you know there's 40 of these damn things?

[wanton pendant]

'There once was a duke who was old, he sat on a throne made of gold, he ate up a treat, gave his kids spoiled meat, and sang tales of great swine never told.'

[raven brook]

Are there 40 Scion Curio's in canon or is this just more skibidi ohio 67

who knows!

[languid badge]

40 as in dialogues I think

[random mulch]

"They say the Old Duke had no lungs. That's wrong, he had five.", what are you even talking about

[raven brook]

😭

Most of these are just random bullshit but some of them feel like vague hints

[eager bluff]

had 5 implies he no longer has 5

[raven brook]

This one feels like it could be pretty genuine

Like,

i mena

Old Duke

Came before, i assume

both gods or the astral infection doing its thing

And it's fair to assume dude,

probably caused some trouble back then

[eager bluff]

sob i think i know what its trying to say as like a double meaning

[wanton pendant]

Any idea how much Fishron lungs sell for on the black market?
I do.

[eager bluff]

"it was the old dukes hunger that tore the first wound in the deep" that motherfucker ATE THE ABYSS THATS HOW ITS THERE

[raven brook]

Fishrons? Who calls them that?

This one is funny

[random mulch]

"The palace still sinks. It has not stopped sinking since the first sin."
does the first sin refer to what xeroc did or is this more nonsense

[raven brook]

Again hard to tell if any of this is to be taken seriously in the slightest

But,

maybe it's implying fishron is just a random bullshit name the terrarian came up with for them and they ain't actually called that

lmao

[wanton pendant]

If I were to guess, it would be the noble Old Duke being spurned his birthright.

[raven brook]

That could be true

[young socket]

thats talking about how many pieces of dialogue there

[raven brook]

whoever wrote these damn things is a evil mastermind some of them are obviously bullshit shitposts but others are ????

[split mortar]

Seven dukeborn???

[wanton pendant]

That's the other ocean.

[raven brook]

making it so us damn lore peasants have to crack our skulls trying to figure out which, if ANY of them actually make any sense

[random mulch]

"Swine."
very insightful

[wanton pendant]

Old Duke, Older Duke, Young Duke, Baby Duke, Duke Nukem, Younger Duke, Mega Duke.

[random mulch]

this is obviously pointing towards the upcoming hogstorm update

[raven brook]

Maybe the old duke had siblings and they died and by the end he was the only one left or something 😭 Idfk man
I mean,

i VAUGELY remember triangle mentioning the old duke had siblings but take that with a grain of salt

[eager bluff]

When the Third Moon drowned, the Old Duke wept salt into the jade chalice, and the coral gates first bled.

[raven brook]

It would certainly add gravitas to Old Duke's hatred towards dragonkind if

He and his siblings were exhiled from the aerie

For their lack of Auricness ™

[wanton pendant]

Old Duke clearly wasn't the only dragon to eat babies...

[raven brook]

And slowly died out due to that

[dusk laurel]

SCION'S CURIO LORE

JADE PALACE

[raven brook]

And OD was the only one left by the end

[eager bluff]

Saying that someone 'eats babies' is stereotypically evil, but I'm a good guy and I eat babies! I mean surely it's not THAT bad. People who don't eat babies are just wusses.

[raven brook]

Maybe without the protection of the aerie, they ended up falling prey to other beings, or were hunted down

[eager bluff]

The village people saw the fishron trade his draconic roar for silence. It was louder this way.

[dusk laurel]

Pay me 10 Ozzacoins and I'll hack in some Miracle Matter for ya, c'mon trust me!
😭

[young socket]

the worlds seventh spine...

[raven brook]

When the true fishron arises, the glorious jade palace shall rise once more from the sea and the ocean will kneel.

What mortals call the Old Duke is a mere echo of the pristine swine, the sovereign who ruled the sulphuric seas.

I think these two are sorta foreshadowing for fish of theseus old duke "rework"

[eager bluff]

some of this shit reads like something i would post but other shit reads like lobcorb abno logs

[pastel bay]

What if we get to the Aerie and its just like. A waiting room. Nothing special just an average looking waiting room

[raven brook]

The current old duke is just an echo of the actual thing

And once the actual duke rework comes the jade palace will be real and stuff

[split mortar]

Who are you dressed as... your OC? That's cringe.
It referenced
The
Fucking
Image

[wanton pendant]

Dr. Yharim will see you soon.
(He lied to get into med school.)

[eager bluff]

specifically the "It was louder this way." makes the whole thing read like a lobcorp abno entry

[random mulch]

"The great jade swine once whispered into Polterghast's ear, and that is why the moon forgot its face."
something something, explanation of why polterghast and necroplasm only show up after moon lord?

[dusk laurel]

the palace of jade...

[spare pier]

No there's already one for that

[wanton pendant]

WAIT!?
Moon... alive!?
I knew it.

[raven brook]

Randomly drawing a connection between old duke and polterghast is odd

[random mulch]

acid rain tier 3 is post-polterghast

[raven brook]

Right i forgot about that

[spare pier]

So like I should say that neither me nor Stip wrote these and we didn't revise any of it so take everything with a grain of salt

[eager bluff]

im more curious about the third moon drowning

[wanton pendant]

Well, the sun is technically a moon.
And the moon is a moon...

[simple tangle]

hi

[spare pier]

I didn't even know there was "serious" Scion's Curio dialogue I thought all of it was a shitpost and exclusive to GFB

😭

[wanton pendant]

Hello.

[raven brook]

That's the funny thing

It's hard to tell if any of this is meant to be serious or not

Some of them are OBVIOUS shitposts

while others are like

Okay this kinda feels like it might be hinting at something but who fucking knows

[split mortar]

Some of it reads like cryptic lore drops, others shitposts then others are
Is this a shitpost????

[spare pier]

Yeah it's funny but also it blurs the line waaaaaay too heavily

Not really a fan

We prolly revising it later

[split mortar]

Yet to read the dialogue but i dont mind that its vague at times

[dusk laurel]

They say the Old Duke had no lungs. That's wrong, he had five.
OH MY GOD

[young socket]

just call it an unreliable narrator on all accounts

[raven brook]

jade palace mention ⚠️

[spare pier]

And I also don't like the more shitpost-y ones because they break immersion really hard

[wanton pendant]

*Reliablist narrator.

[split mortar]

Thank Xeroc I don't have any of that 'Pathfinding' garbage, whatever the hell that is
Chat old duke lnows of the sun

[wanton pendant]

Yharim watching the Terrarian get told about Xeroc by a weird worm thing.

[eager bluff]

"CAAAAAAARRRRLLLL! You must finish your work Carl." <-- very obviously a shitpost

"The palace still sinks. It has not stopped sinking since the first sin." <-- very unclear on if its a shitpost or serious

[dusk laurel]

the first sin...

the fishron pig curse thats totally canon

[eager bluff]

also yes i did trigger automod the first time i tried to send this

[wanton pendant]

Old Duke eats apples.

[dusk laurel]

wwg is eaten by apples

[wanton pendant]

Insect Condo...

[raven brook]

It does kinda feel like it can't really tell if it wants to be a genuine lore-relevant item (I mean even the item's name - Scion's curio, refers to the nature of Old Duke, as a "Scion" of the auric dragons) or just a shitpost and it makes it very muddy yeah

I love me some shitposts but sicon's curio in particular,

feels like a very good chance

[dusk laurel]

the scion's curio is the old duke's version of the whispers rework

[raven brook]

To have an item that actually gives some bits of lore to the player in a cool way

[eager bluff]

the issue is you cant tell what is and isnt serious

[raven brook]

yeah

I mean i reckon that's intentional

[dusk laurel]

mhm

[raven brook]

But i'm unsure if i'm a huuge fan of it, it is kinda funny, but i'm not sure if it's beneficial fo the economy in the long run (?)

[wanton pendant]

Idea: on getfixedboi it only gives serious statements.

[split mortar]

I dont see this as an issue

[eager bluff]

intentional to some degree yes but

[spare pier]

I mean yeah the point is that you don't know what is and isn't real, my problem ain't that

[long bloom]

i love everything about it tbh

[spare pier]

It's that if you do take some stuff seriously it becomes a mess

[spare pier]

Like this one

[raven brook]

I think it being cryptic is good

[eager bluff]

not knowing what is and isnt real is fine but because of the nature of several lines it becomes extremely touchy to even headcanon anything as true

[raven brook]

I would rather it be cryptic than directly tell the player shit, it's nice flavour

But the problem is that it's really, really hard to tell what should or shouldn't be taken seriously

[spare pier]

This one should not exist because it draws a connection that just isn't real, and it follows a format that it being serious isn't immediately discernible

[long bloom]

i assume that one's referencing the nuclear terror resprite

byeah it's definitely iffy

[split mortar]

Only is a mess if you take it without considering the fact you are listening to the skibidi ohio child accessory like yeah disregard info that is proven wrong by more proven sources idk just strikes me as problematic if you have the same comprehension as yharim always true so far

[raven brook]

What more proven sources?

[wanton pendant]

You're describing the player base.

[eager bluff]

the issue is that there arent other sources and for a long time there wont be

[random mulch]

the puzzle should probably be decyphering what it means rather than if there's actually any info in it

[raven brook]

This is a statement connecting Old Duke to Polterghast and i mean

Nothing ingame really,

Contradicts that directly

[raven brook]

Yeah this

[long bloom]

hm

perhaps

[eager bluff]

we dont have anything ingame that can disprove any of this and we cant find any potential bias on the part of scions curio

[random mulch]

the shitposts are fun but they should be obvious

[split mortar]

Idm some info just being lies
I do think a source as dubious as this would work better when the mods more completed though

[raven brook]

I like the shitpost lines that aren't super meta

[spare pier]

Yeah but by that point might as well just consider it entirely non-canon with how often it breaks the fourth wall and references things it shouldn't know

[long bloom]

i almost fell out of my chair when it mentioned ozzacoins

[raven brook]

Like

"Swine."

That one's funny

[split mortar]

Lmao

[raven brook]

But the really meta 4th wall breaking ones, idk, feel like more of a gfb thing

It breaks immersion, i think

[eager bluff]

like half the reason we know when yharim is and isnt lying is because we know what he would have to lie about

[long bloom]

personally i don't really care
it's just fun

[eager bluff]

theres a very clear character for him that helps with deciphering information

which isnt something scions curio has

[raven brook]

It's funny but i think it's potentially damaging if ya wanna build an actual narrative, specially when the item has genuine lore mixed in

Considering the fact Scion's Curio would probably be one of the first bits of old duke lore the player would ever get too,

given its available preboss

It dosen't set a good first impression, as it immediately sets itself up as very shitpost-y and meta

[split mortar]

Fair

[long bloom]

you have a point

[raven brook]

I think some of the joke lines that aren't meta and are more "subtle" like "Swine." and "I drank a entire gallon of pig iron once." are fine

But the more meta or over-the-top ones,

would be better in gfb

Like the ones that just feel like schizo yapping

[random mulch]

"@ everyone Please do not announce to the sever when you are going to fight Old Duke. This has been a recurring issue..."
discord is canon to calamity now

[dusk laurel]

the fucking discord references for some reason

yeah that pne

it shorrible

[long bloom]

how horrible...

🐗

[split mortar]

Horrible

[eager bluff]

a lot of this just

[dusk laurel]

they didnt even spell server right lmao... sever?? 😭

[raven brook]

It's more meta jokes than anything i think

Like most of its lines are

Which again

The jokes are #funny its just that its kind of a bad impression to give ap layer specially with the more seemingly serious bits of od lore mixed in

[eager bluff]

im cutting out the one where it jokes that they cant shit because that ones funny and also doesnt break anything
but like why is there a polymorphine mention this isnt even a noita reference

[random mulch]

either the "jade palace" is just meant to be the green waters of the sulphurous sea or old duke is a real estate owner

[wanton pendant]

He's a landlord.

Why do you think he's called 'Duke'?

[languid badge]

old duke would totally give people massively inflated rent prices

[random mulch]

then what does duke fishron own

[eager bluff]

a palace made of jade

[wanton pendant]

A beachfront property.

[agile matrix]

what is this?

[languid badge]

scions dialogue

[zenith geode]

scions curio

[agile matrix]

it talks??

[long bloom]

sure does

[light linden]

who is scion?

[split mortar]

Accessory

[long bloom]

swine.

[agile matrix]

some of this is like

genuinely cool lore

but the others are like. some bullshit

[agile matrix]

from what im seeing from the not joke ones, scions curio says a lot of like

half-facts

[terse moss]

I think old Duke being hyped up to this massive, ancient, existential threat is really funny

[agile matrix]

like "the jade palace doesn't sink" but also "the jade palace has always been sinking after the first sin"

lore team trying to make old duke as important as Xeroc: cmon guys please please please

[terse moss]

Like they talk about him the way people would talk about Yharim if they were spreading propaganda

Or like prime fovos

And then he is just 🐗

Even Yharon doesn’t get that much Hype

[dusk laurel]

thats because yharon has barely anything rn

[long bloom]

yharon's a fraud

[terse moss]

We need a Yharon hype update

[long bloom]

[terse moss]

I cannot wait for him to be an actual demon

[dusk laurel]

according to the system neither of the two main lore writers were involved with it

[terse moss]

Personal kill count in the tens or hundreds of millions, fully immortal, second strongest dragon, etc

There is so much potential

[raven brook]

The jade palace is real i think,

[terse moss]

Potential dragon, if you will

[raven brook]

Supposedly the palae OD lives in alongside all his servants and slaves

palace

The old duke monolith references it too

since its,

a literal jade placae

PALACE

[terse moss]

Can the other dragons breathe underwater?

[long bloom]

unknown

[terse moss]

Wait, does that imply other, still alive dragons?

[long bloom]

cheese emoji "i can spell" moon emoji

[terse moss]

If so, why didn’t yharon and yharim kill old duke and rescue them

[long bloom]

there's many dragons

just not auric ones

[raven brook]

Yeha i think that's the gisft of it, for the like

ones that aren't jokes

[agile matrix]

yeh

[raven brook]

They are hinting at actual lore but they aren't

100% literal or true

[agile matrix]

i made a request in wiki chat

[terse moss]

But didn’t OD have auric dragons as slaves

[long bloom]

probably not

[agile matrix]

OD wants to have auric dragons as slaves but thats really really really hard to do

1. most are dead

[terse moss]

So just other lesser dragons

[agile matrix]

2. they're auric fuckin dragons

[raven brook]

tje humble palace

[split mortar]

Old duke would have probably been nuked by zeratros personally for that

[long bloom]

well
they weren't before

[terse moss]

True

[raven brook]

I think if old duke wanted auric dragon slaves the best time to do it would be after xeroc's ascencion

[terse moss]

How did he build a palace. He doesn’t even have opposable thumbs

[dusk laurel]

non auric ones

[agile matrix]

this is a problem of lack of time

[long bloom]

slaves

[raven brook]

No longer under unified civilization and no longer under the protection of zeratros

[agile matrix]

i do not know when OD was born and Zeratros died

nor when OD became racist

[raven brook]

I mean

[long bloom]

old duke became racist right after he was born

[raven brook]

Probably a really long time ago id sday

[agile matrix]

since theres no way OD was BORN racist.

[raven brook]

Depends on,

when he was exhiled id say

[terse moss]

Nah he was a generational talent

[raven brook]

I think ever since his birth he had rather unfavourable circumstances not being auric and all that which slowly festered into hatred

[agile matrix]

i mean as long as the Dragon of Hope wasn't like "haha fuckwad you're a piece of shit I got the soul and not YOU

[long bloom]

faith

[agile matrix]

close enough

[raven brook]

I mean that dosen't really matter

[terse moss]

Wait what would the dragons have had faith in

They were the higher power

[agile matrix]

lotta things

[raven brook]

It's more of a symbolism for the faith held on the dragons

As the protectors of the world

[long bloom]

they represented humanity's faith in the auric dragons

[agile matrix]

faith in Zeratros, faith in Yharon

[raven brook]

They could've also had faith in their eternal rule, too

[terse moss]

Oh people’s faith in them

[agile matrix]

believe that Yharon's not gonna just leave you dead

[terse moss]

The humanity that couldn’t even live on the surface due to said dragons?

[long bloom]

i'm just quoting the lore doc

[split mortar]

Yes

[terse moss]

I am just confused as to why the humans would venerate the dragons that despise them

[split mortar]

Did they know the sun dragon was the cause of that though?

[raven brook]

Idk where you got the idea the dragons despised humanity

[agile matrix]

why would people worship a god who wants to kill them [god inspecific]

[raven brook]

Dragon society was opressive, not hateful

[agile matrix]

lotta people keep saying that the dragons are quite racist

[raven brook]

And even then,

[terse moss]

Didn’t they turn up the sun to force them to move underground

[raven brook]

They still acted as protectors of the world

There's nothing saying they did that explicitly to move humans underground

[agile matrix]

while thats auraful, i dont think zeratros would do that

[long bloom]

that's probably not the reason why

[terse moss]

From who/what (until fovos)

[split mortar]

More sun on planet could mean the sun dragon has more sun to use idk

[raven brook]

We dunno

Dragon society wasn't good and pure and innocent but it also wasn't pure evil superracism or anything

It was moe so,

[warm gull]

how come racists are against races but marxists are for marx. this terminology is confusing

[split mortar]

Elementals are a possible example
Or the random town destroying entities throughout the game

[raven brook]

that the way dragon society was structured was inherently opressive to any other sapient beings

[terse moss]

Fair

And the variety of random monsters

[raven brook]

Some dragons were just straight up racist yeah,

(looks at yharon

but others, like Vetrasyl, were kind and altruistic

[terse moss]

But the dragons didn’t really stop predators, they were just the biggest predator

It also might have been a Greek god esque situation, where it was sometimes “praise them to avoid their wrath”

[raven brook]

If a all-mighty god lives above in a utopia that mortals aren't allowed in

[terse moss]

Worship the dragons so they don’t eat all the villagers

[split mortar]

Still having the biggest predator nearby probably serves as a good deterrent

[raven brook]

And the allmighty god is said to protects said mortals

It would be common for people to worship said allmighty god/gods

[split mortar]

Probably a case by case thing

[raven brook]

And accept their place as bellow them

Of course, there would be those who wouldn't have that sit right by them

And question why they are considered inferior and why the allmighty gods wouldn't let them in their utopia, if their goal was to protect them

Just like most things its hard to really

Boil it down to "people hated dragons" or "peope loved dragons"

There would be far too much variety in beliefs, ideologies and relationships between humans and dragons to dumb it down like that

[young socket]

thought that said pope loved dragons sob

[raven brook]

The dragon of faith dying was symbolical of people generally losing faith i nthe dragons

Because they couldn't protect them against fovos

At which point, alot of people would see them less as allmighty guardians and more as just mortals like themselves

And thus question "why are they allowed all this power and fortune and we aren't" and so on

[split mortar]

Yeah

[terse moss]

Did anyone start worshipping fovos as a god?

[young socket]

this is why we need to eat the powerful and take that power for ourselves and not spread it

[raven brook]

that would be kind of a fun worldbuilding avenue to explore

we dunno of any groups that worship distortion entities beyond kinsmen and signus

but part of me does feel like thered ce rtainly be

some groups

that survvied fovos attack

ANd would make shit up about it

[terse moss]

I assume some wacko cult would have to have started worshiping the interdimensional entity that killed half of your world’s gods before being sealed away

[raven brook]

Worshiping it as a herald of destruction

[split mortar]

Probably an evil idol that brings destruction type thing as most common

[terse moss]

Like the vanilla lunatic cultist

[raven brook]

Probably coming up with shit too like

It's striking us dwon for our greed and how much we damaged nature or something

And going if we are oyal to it it will spare us

[terse moss]

Yeah

[raven brook]

9it wont)

[terse moss]

Or trying to restore its power and unseal it from the moon

A rival faction to the dragon cult

[raven brook]

Because i imagine if cults like that were to happen, they'd be motivated in part by awe at its power and in part by fear

Literally just trying to rationalize a way of "well if this thi ng attacks us again if we do xyz it will spare us surely"

[split mortar]

The dragons tore the worlds soul apart damaging nature and so forces beyond have come to punish their arrogance or smth along those lines ifk

[terse moss]

Basically a Rocco’s basilisk cult. If he help him he will spare us if he does come back

Or, even if not that, it might just be “big dude strong”

[raven brook]

It's fun to think about things that people would worship that aren't just gods or dragons

Like,

Maybe some animals, or objects

Could be symbols of worship to some cultures

I mean we have atleast one example of that,

with dei

they're by all means just animals (even if extraterrestrial ones) that are worshipped in a particular culture

Some of the SSO bestiaries that may or may not become real later iirc talked about how Gilded Axolotls were also seen as symbols of good lucks by illmerans

That sort of thing too

funnily enough i feel like the dragon-human relationship

and the god-human relationship,

specifically i think dragon-human relationsghips were more like the traditional worship of a religious figure than alot of god-human relationships

Dragons were so "far" from humans, they lived above while humans lived bellow, they were seen as all-powerfull beings

Human society didnt often have actual communication with them

Meanwhile, Gods are often, political figures

rulers, kings, queens

They were alot more, direct in their relationship with people i feel, atleast alot of them would be

Otonilou wasn't just some ancient all-powerful being that lived in some other high-above idyllic realm

[wanton pendant]

Two, Brimstone Elemental seems to have been worshipped.

[raven brook]

Brimstone elemental is not an animal i don't think .

i guess you could maybe coun her as a object

she's like, lava, i guess

[wanton pendant]

Objectifying women? Shame on you.

[raven brook]

She lived in Illmeris and likely was more than capable of direcly communicating iwth Illmerans, and rather than some all-powerful guardian she instead was a diplomat that brought peace to warring nations

[split mortar]

Cant ebelieve shcees is obfectifuing women

…

Im leaving that

[cloud ibex]

How did this happen melon gun

[split mortar]

I wish i knew

[icy veldt]

Should be *offectifying, since Latin ob- becomes of- when prepended to a word starting with F, such as the verb facio

[agile matrix]

"Fovos was actually akin to Azrael in which he was meant to start the world anew, and his failure to do so was a fault of the Dragons!"

[gritty summit]

Did Yharim challenge Xeroc and get slapped down,or did he never try?

[wanton pendant]

Yharim Fought The Sun Theory...

[split mortar]

Theory time

[wanton pendant]

I mean, Yharim's life goal is to try and kill the gods. Of course, Xeroc humouring him is a different question.

[hollow pivot]

Can Yharim even find Xeroc to fight him? Where is Xeroc?

[icy veldt]

During daytime, in the sky

[wanton pendant]

Xeroc's Living House.

[icy veldt]

The 'rocshed

[wanton pendant]

Not to be confused with Xeroc's Death House (built by Yharim).

[hollow pivot]

So Xeroc is in the sun rn?

[wanton pendant]

We don't know.

[split mortar]

Possibly

[barren parrot]

Yo, would anybody who has a strong grasp of the Calamity Lore's be available to have a chat on call at some point?
I'd love to go over the mod's lore and just solidify what I know/don't know since i'm aware there has been an update last month.

[gritty summit]

Check the pins for the most up to date lore bible.

In-game,the lore items dropped by bosses,often called Whispers,also provide lore.
Not necessarily accurate lore,as the source in those cases is a man with a shockingly narrow worldview.

[barren parrot]

Ah, yes I have seen this. In fact I had seen it back in 2025 too. I'm aware of lore items (Yharim), Draedon's logs and communications, bestiary descriptions, environmental storytelling, and item tooltips, as well as two of the tracks containing lyrics which may be outdated now?

I should maybe clarify that I was hoping to ask a few questions on parts that don't show up. Namely mana's role in regard to life, the world soul and source of that information, among a few others I've had, and more importantly how much are both that document and the sister document (Introduction to Calamity Master Doc) effected by in game items, discussions with devs and speculation/discussion from the community.

[robust osprey]

basically,

[robust osprey]

yharn lyrics are mostly accurate

[light linden]

@hollow pivotyou.

[robust osprey]

wtf

[dusk laurel]

thunder

we need to do a vote first

[light linden]

?

[robust osprey]

can we even

[light linden]

that isn't about that

[light linden]

Have you heard ignite my flame?

[thorn gazelle]

barbarian mentioned

[light linden]

it's a yharim fan song

[hollow pivot]

I don't think I've heard that song before.

[robust osprey]

ignites your flame

[hollow pivot]

skeletonburning.gif

[raven brook]

Wdym by mana's role in regard to life, exactly? As in how it affects biology and stuff?

As for the world soul, we don't got much

it's... a world, soul, the soul of the world. ayup
A long time ago for reasons unknown it got shattered, and the dragons got hold of its fragments, absorbing them and becoming the auric dragons we'd come to know, with each auric soul being a fusion of their original soul and the shards of the world soul

[ruby heart]

he has one and its wyrm, sort of (first offshoots..)

[dusk laurel]

guh

[ruby heart]

https://tenor.com/view/silhouette-souq-gif-27396432

new lotus flowered old duke

that is still being worked on ™

when i say stuff i dont mean the fucking brown bearded pig..

[ruby heart]

great reference to the fact fabsol initially made old duke as a yellow stronger duke fishron that dropped 5 duke fishron bags, and old duke expert item is going to be the old duke lungs (redesigned old duke scales ) so the 5 bags would drop 5 lungs

loreful

[ruby heart]

🦈 i did.. the loreful ones, xyk made the jk ones

[ruby heart]

if you want to know the truth

its all bullshit that was made to sound important and loreful, but it means nothing

[long bloom]

peak

[ruby heart]

scio curio is a false idol that spews false messages

gloryfing the duke figure

[ruby heart]

this is a fun interpretation though

[hollow pivot]

I get that Vetrasyl would be the ancestor for Wyverns because from everything we know, he'd look like one and lives in the same area as one; but what connection do Pigrons have to the Dragon of Frost?

[ruby heart]

like these

they were made to sound like super serious lore things, but if you pay attention to them they mean nothing

like strucking the reefclock thrice

[dusk laurel]

pigrons live in the snow biome (a cold place basically) and is a mix of the words pig and dragon sorta (they have wings)

[ruby heart]

the first sin..

technically this one make sense since if you think about it

the first sin was the dragons taking the world soul fragments

[raven brook]

Yeah alot of them felt like they were made to sound important but they also felt like some bits of them could be clues to thing

[spare pier]

The funniest part is that like a bunch of them fit lol

[raven brook]

Yeah

[hollow pivot]

That first one makes it sound like Old Duke made the abyss for some reason.

[raven brook]

Again even for these purposes

I think the meta ones,

Kinda harm it

[hollow pivot]

I thought they were given the fragments?

[ruby heart]

the meta ones will be moved to gfb

[raven brook]

The meta joke ones would still work much better as gfb things me thinks

[ruby heart]

only ozzacoin will be kept

as a super rare one

[raven brook]

Very good

thank you triangular

[ruby heart]

so scions will only have the false lore and false idol messages

some kinda have hints of the old duke redesign because like palace stuff and some things but it isnt meant fully as a hint of that

[dusk laurel]

if the post pbg upgrade for curio becomes real will it also spout false lore...

[ruby heart]

it will become real ye

the ideia is that you enlighten it

so it now speaks in virtues

[dusk laurel]

🥹

[long bloom]

🔥

[raven brook]

Post od upgrade to scions curio

[ruby heart]

and there will be the mammoth

[raven brook]

That finally reveals the truth

[ruby heart]

that speaks evil messages

[raven brook]

And speaks the true lore rather than false lies

[ruby heart]

so you have a angel and devil on your shoulder

[dusk laurel]

mammoth is the dragon of frost's son...

[ruby heart]

anyway lore wise scion curio is meant to be a false idol depicting a powerful being, a believed missing link between the fishron and pigron species

from a settlement that lived by the sulphur sea ages ago

[long bloom]

how loreful

[ruby heart]

the old duke talked about isnt the lotus flowered one, but the actual pig dragon thing (the design being the OD redesign i was working on)

future uncertain plans, but it will likely be reused and kept as a acid rain t3 miniboss

[long bloom]

🔥 🔥 🔥

[ruby heart]

considering how powerful some offshoot species are, their relation to the auric dragons

i do believe certain individuals would have myths and beliefs built around them

overtime

[hollow pivot]

So would the Dragon of Frost looks a bit like a Pigron? Since the other example of Draconic Off-shoots we have makes it seem like Draconic Off-shoots tend to resemble their ancestor in some aspects.

[ruby heart]

principally on more far away places, that aren't already related to a god or dragon

[raven brook]

Will the elder ancient acid rain fishron still have any relation to the lotusflowered OD

Like

given OD enslaves offshoots

maybe it's a particularly powerful one that escaped his grasp

[ruby heart]

well one of the ideias (its still very wip)

[hollow pivot]

Lotusflower?

[ruby heart]

is that OD pig would be one of the offshoot kings, higher offshoot species that control a part of the population, and during the lotus flowered dragon quest you would need to kill these tyranical kings to raise the lotus flowered one as the sole and only offshoot king (there is more to it but i dont want to wall of text and its also very wip )

take it with a grain of salt, plans change, still being discussed, etc

i really need to get a proper name for them because its so confusing to discuss it because if i say old duke people think of the pig dragon thing

[hollow pivot]

Old Puke?

[long bloom]

the true duke

[ruby heart]

in resume its likely old duke will be split in 2 (gaster fate), the pig dragon thing becoming a sulphur sea miniboss acid rain t3

the boss slot of a offshoot king becoming a new being

[robust osprey]

turth duke

[dusk laurel]

[ruby heart]

truth duke

[ruby heart]

but yea it does have relation

[chilly vector]

buh

[wanton pendant]

If only it weren't the middle of the night.

[ruby heart]

what saggitariod user

[raven brook]

If this idea were to come to reality

I imagine that

OD probably is lowkey gaslighting you

Would be fun if,

[ruby heart]

which OD 🥹

[raven brook]

THE LOTUSFLOWER

that one.

the dragon not the pig

[hollow pivot]

What Lotusflower?

[raven brook]

ANYWAYS it would be fun if like, not all of the offshoot kings were necessarily even bad (though some of them might be) and OD (reborn lotusflower not pig) was gaslighting you bc he just wants to be the one in power

It'd add a interesting moral dillema

[ruby heart]

well one of the ideias for it is that you technically would be the one wrong in the situation ( the player being the one to cause the issue, instead of being the janitor and cleaning up the past people problems, you are taking a active position in the world) and p much doing a god of dogma and trying to raise a "god king"

through the use of the lotus flowered od, the offshoot king souls and the auric soul of frost

[raven brook]

old duke reborn as a lotus flower

[ruby heart]

the player forcing the Lotus flowered one to keep going even when it doubts that slaying the offshoot kings will be a good thing, both learning of the god king scheme and the cyclic way the world works

[hollow pivot]

I have more questions.

[raven brook]

Just slang for soemthing being reborn as something greater

[ruby heart]

old duke full redesign, lotus flower is a jk term about reviving a thing in a fully diferent manner

he wont become a literal lotus flower

[raven brook]

Hmm this seems to portray old duke in a more positive/sympathethic light

[ruby heart]

although design wise some lotus flower elements and symbolisms could work well and be fun

[raven brook]

Which i dunno, i really like him just being an asshole with a massive inferiority complex

[ruby heart]

you have the pig dragon for that

[raven brook]

That just wants to be in control to compensate for his lack of it when he was born and exhiled due to his lack of auric-ness

[ruby heart]

his being was split in 2..

[long bloom]

reference to this

[ruby heart]

we already have way too many assholes with complexes

yharon is one for example

the player being able to take actual action in the story and change something through a game wide quest is p interesting too and a thing we lack

[raven brook]

Yharon dsoen't really hit the same type of character OD would in this case

Yharon is a superiority complex

[ruby heart]

most things in the story already happened in the past and you only have to solve it

[raven brook]

if anything

the lotusflower od actively gaslighting the player into doing bad shit could be fun imo specially cuz, we dont really get anything like that ingame rn

[hollow pivot]

So not being Auric and mass-destrution as an Auric Dragon are equivalent in dragon culture?

[raven brook]

Sure there's Yharim but he's the final boss of tbhe game you inevitably are gonna kill him and whether he actually succesfully converted you to his casue is ultimately entirely dependent on post-game events

This would be something more direct that would happen ingame

Cuz the entire quest would be fighting the offshoot kings

[ruby heart]

that is what yharim is doing the entire game

sadly its badly implemented rn..

[wanton pendant]

Old Duke always tells lies, New Duke only tells the truth, both are trying to rent an apartment and you're the real estate agent.

[raven brook]

And fighting lotusflower OD could be seen as the player either choosing to fix the problems they caused or maybe even just wanting more power

[wanton pendant]

Dragons may be a tiny bit racist.

[raven brook]

I'm just not a huge fan of turning him into a more sympathethic figure, i suppose i just really liked the previous direction and just changing that direction into the one the pig miniboss gets feels kind of a waste to me

[ruby heart]

and also character ""growth"" and change

through it

[hollow pivot]

Soulist?

[ruby heart]

all characters rn are p much settled and you dont see much diference in them or change with your interactions

while with the lotus flowered OD you would be able to see them, and mostly through the player actions

[ruby heart]

anyway

[wanton pendant]

That's what Yharim is to Xeroc.

[raven brook]

I'm aware yea

[wanton pendant]

Out with the old (duke), in with the new (duke).

[raven brook]

I'm just skeptical on the direction, i'm not a huge fan of it so far but it's all still up to discussion after all

I do like the idea of the player having a more active role

In a questline

[hollow pivot]

So Yharim and Yharon are Soulists?

[raven brook]

And being the actual cause of something

[ruby heart]

the main concept is to have a character you can interact through optional quests through the entire game, with the player being the one mostly in control of the situation, and through these quests there is character growth (mostly a bad one.. ) and changes

through your interactions

which result in the climax that is the boss fight

[wanton pendant]

I was making a joke on Sol means sun.

[raven brook]

But i'm just really skeptical on turning the lotusflowered one into a more sympathethic figure

[hollow pivot]

Do you get to decide how you handle situations?

[raven brook]

I really liked him just being a grumpy asshole who lets a inferiority complex define all of his actions

[ruby heart]

rather than "evil guy that already did everything in the past and the player has to solve the situation"

which we have a lot already

yharim being p much that

[hollow pivot]

Like sparing some gods and killing others?

[raven brook]

I mean

[ruby heart]

yes

[raven brook]

Dude wouldn't be doing things on the past

[ruby heart]

that what the offshoot kings

and OD are for

the pig

[hollow pivot]

I think Old Duke is about as sympathetic as Yharim.

[wanton pendant]

New Duke saves babies from the maw of Old Duke.

[ruby heart]

the pig offshoot king is the evil guy who slaves his children (fishron), starves them

[raven brook]

The entire quest would be happening on the present, no? You'd be the one giving him power right now

[hollow pivot]

[Insert prince of egypt quote]

[ruby heart]

yes but you wouldnt be seeing character growth or change

he is already settled, he is already evil, he is already a betrayer whatever

also now with DoG being more open to work on

i think him being the guy that uses and betray you is more interesting

had some ideias around that talked in dev server

[dusk laurel]

nefarious...

[ruby heart]

since that is meant to be his whole thing

which he really dont do rn

[wanton pendant]

DoG questline where he helps you kill a god, but he steals all the loot like a jerk.

[long bloom]

well i think these ideas are very cool triangle user

[hollow pivot]

Currently you just kill 3 guys and hold out a glowing worm and you fight Dog.

[dusk laurel]

cosmic worm isnt even glowing dawg

its just a mini dog head

[hollow pivot]

And you get your loot at the end. Apart from the soul which goes to Noxus because Terrarian can't have any Auric or godly souls.

[wanton pendant]

I just realized you're Spamton.

[sinful adder]

You know there was a bit of that in old lore DoG and providence

[raven brook]

I think Storm Weaver could be a great way to have a boss/antagonist character go through character growth as you progress through its storyline

Cuz that one feels like ,

it could have a full turnaround

[sinful adder]

Storm weaver being on your side would be fun

[raven brook]

Also Old Duke worked really well as , a antithesis to Yharim's ideology too

[sinful adder]

Tame it or something

[raven brook]

Cuz dude is basically an dragon and he's not really

a good guy

I'm not saying these ideas are bad necessarily and ik they're heavily wip and up to discussion

I'm just wording for why i personally have some concerns regarding them rn

[sinful adder]

Yharim could pretty easily use this as "yeah this guy wasn't given an auric soul because he was evil, the real auric dragons were great"

[raven brook]

It'sn ot about whether Yharim could refute it or not

It's about what it shows to the player

[hollow pivot]

Then you can feed Storm Weaver souls since it can probably absorb it like Dog.

[raven brook]

Specially since OD is such a late boss in progression

It could be,

[wanton pendant]

DoG doesn't absorb the souls.

[raven brook]

the final nail in the coffin, so to speak

[hollow pivot]

Just without Noxus Taxes.

[sinful adder]

Feed storm weaver the polterghast

[wanton pendant]

Good idea!

[ruby heart]

some of the discussions i had in dev server (take with a grain of salt, not settled, not planned, if it get real it will come much later, not confirmed ) is that he would appear early on and talk with the player, presenting himself as a hero, a important good figure that was once part of Yharim army and has decided to aid the player and give them proper information. the player wouldn't know DoG is a distortion creature either (not even Xeroc as he is super focused on dealing with Noxus, and is not seeing the big picture), the player would also be able to emply DoG help and use him to discard god essence for rewards and information

** (take with a grain of salt, not settled, not planned, if it get real it will come much later, not confirmed, just talking for fun )**

[hollow pivot]

You can give Storm Weaver Yharon Soul Fragments and it just dies 👍

[sinful adder]

We don't know for sure if DoG keeps some of the soul power but probably not

[dusk laurel]

its confirmed that he doesnt via draetalk i think

[wanton pendant]

I see. Deluxe Clentaminator.

[hollow pivot]

Same with Galactica Singularities.

[ruby heart]

yharon is already that 🥹 you can't get a more evil dragon than it

[sinful adder]

DoG helping clean evil biomes would be interesting

[dusk laurel]

killing evil2s and dog pulls up...

[ruby heart]

i hope evils 2 dont have DoG pulling up because it would be a bit

anti climax

considering who they are meant to be

[wanton pendant]

"Are you gonna eat that?"
"What? No!"
"Good."

[ruby heart]

and their figure on the lore

instead of getting a proper closure, they just serve to give DoG aura

[hollow pivot]

Old Duke is Neutral Evil, Yharon is Lawful Evil, and Dragon of Flame is Chaotic Evil cmiIr

[light linden]

I hope they do tbh

[ruby heart]

if we were to have DoG eating a god i think the best one for that (still a bit iffy about it though ) would be slime god

its like having noxus kill yharim on the end

would that be a good closure?

[spare pier]

That ain't Cheese's point tho

[raven brook]

Yeah but Yharon is directly on Yharim's side and fighting for his righteous cause or whatever, and Yharim believes Yharon to be a force of good and his best friend or whatnot

OD literally enslaves things which is the ultimate No no for Yharim, and he wouldn't have the same moral shield that Yharon has, he's just a tyrant for the sake of wanting power rather than some "righteous" moral cause

[hollow pivot]

That's how you start the Dog fight, he tries absorbing the Evil 2 bosses but you stop him so now he's angry and challenges you to a fight later trust

[raven brook]

Also

[spare pier]

Yharon is very different from the hypothetical evil Old Duke

[raven brook]

I think Old DUke had alot of potential to be a very interesting character even if he was evil

[ruby heart]

yes but as i said you would still have the offshoot kings

displaying that

[raven brook]

Offshoot Kings don't work as well for that imo,

[ruby heart]

and showing that the offshoot ""society"" which is p much offshoot dragons

[spare pier]

Yeah but that isn't as meaningful

[raven brook]

Not only is their importance ultimately diminished

(They are just minibosses that are spread throughout progression rather than a big climatic boss post ml with its own area and everything)

[ruby heart]

i also wanted this to not be fully yharim again, this would be more of a

player thing

[leaden bridge]

Difference is nobody cares about slime god

[wanton pendant]

How does Primordial Wyrm factor in?

[ruby heart]

although its connected to the world story

[ruby heart]

yea

that why i said slime god would be the best one for that

[flat berry]

Or providence just like in infernum

[spare pier]

No

[ruby heart]

evils 2 already has things going on, so having their end be just DoG aura farm would be a bit

guh

[spare pier]

👎

[dusk laurel]

big disagree

[spare pier]

But also like I think ya can make Old Duke be both changed by the player while still being kinda evil

Those concepts ain't exclusive

[ruby heart]

if he is evil, i want it to be due to the player influencing him sort off

or the both doing it through the quest

[raven brook]

But i highly doubt they could have as much of a fleshed out backstory as Old Duke could've had

Someone who was basically ruined by the opression of dragon society and developed a inferiority complex that made them crave control

[ruby heart]

than him starting nefarious

if the thing goes for that route

[raven brook]

lIKE,

The offshoots being evil to me feels like itd just be

yep theyre evil

they evil glupshits

[ruby heart]

like the player pushing and influencing the bad part of old duke during the quest for their mutual goal

[spare pier]

I have an idea of how I'd like to handle it tbh but I ain't saying it here

[raven brook]

The appeal of evil OD and its lore to me

[ruby heart]

which end up in the climax and the boss fight

[raven brook]

Wasn't just It's Evil

it's how it became evil

And what it means for the wrold that it is evil

[ruby heart]

that was never

[flat berry]

Im confused, what Old Duke quest?

[ruby heart]

what he was though

sort of

he disliked both dragon society, the offshoots and even the gods

[raven brook]

Which i think makes alot of sense for that

[ruby heart]

i guess this is a fate of head canon being made with little information that was discussed

[flat berry]

I tough the player only fights old duke cause it literally shows up while fending off the acid rain

[raven brook]

It's not rly a headcanon

It's a interpretation, a way i'd handle it personally

[wanton pendant]

Future potential Duke here.

[ruby heart]

potential pig

[hollow pivot]

The Off-shoots are filled with sentient creatures, there'd be some that are evil, some that are somewhat good, and grey-ish ones.

[raven brook]

He dislikes dragon society because it shunned him for being different, kicked him out of their sacred land

He dislikes offshoots because he's compared to them yet he thinks he's better, he's not like them, he'd never be like them

They're lesser than him

[flat berry]

In my headcanon, most of the things the player fight are just found by accident

[ruby heart]

the main thing for him is that he was always discarded and considered inferior by all these three

[raven brook]

And he dieslikes gods because idk they're thieves of power, much like the auric dragons "stole! him of his rightful power

Yeah exactly

WEll, kinda

Offshoots to me would be more like

He just thinks of them as lesser

And hates that he's "compared" to them

Cuz by all means he's also one

[flat berry]

Theres literally no reason to actively fight duke, anahita, queen bee or the old duke, at least not story wise

[raven brook]

The same way that the dragons looekd down on him

He looks down the offshoots

[wanton pendant]

Dangerous, dangerous, that one is messed up you're right, eats babies.

[ruby heart]

not accepted as a auric dragon due to not having a soul, only used by the offshoots due to him having the auric soul of frost on his hands (what keeps the sanctuary a float) otherwise they consider him weak and pathetic, his only sibling and the closest to him,.the wyrm was taken by silva and he never saw it again, which he consider a betray, the gods and their constant hunt and shun of it due to the auric dragon actions

that was one of the discussed old possible routes for the old duke stuff

[hollow pivot]

I think Duke and Queen Bee are hungry and defending their hive respectively, and Old Duke is kinda evil so the player might engage that or he might engage the fight 50/50.

[ruby heart]

he never was a superiority guy since that is yharon

[raven brook]

It's not really about superiority, again

[ruby heart]

but p much he fears being betrayed again or left alone

[raven brook]

It's the opposite

[ruby heart]

which is what the player thing comes in

[raven brook]

It's a inferiority complex

It's the need to prove that you're better to make sure people don't look down on you

Rather than thinking you ARE inherently better

[wanton pendant]

Old Duke and Primordial Wyrm are brothers?
Which one takes after the mother and which one the father?

[raven brook]

He dosen't want to be like the offshoots, he has to be better than them, he could never be like them or else he'll be looked down upon just like he was in the aerie

[ruby heart]

🦈 offshoots..

we dont really know how that works

[raven brook]

I think specially for how late in the game OD is fought, i'd like him to be an actual overarching antagonist rather than more of a martyred victim figure

And he can still be a victim, but a victim that was broken by their past

[flat berry]

Yeah, but my point is, they are literally just there, my headcanon, the terrarian accidentally fishes duke fishron and has to fight it to survive, the aueen bee is more of a "fuck arround and find out" Thing where the terrarian fucks arround and has to fight or find out, anahita is completely unnecesary, with the new lre you have no reason to attack the ???

[raven brook]

Someone who's

Cruel

[hollow pivot]

Why doesn't Old Duke just kill the people who look down on him? Is he stupid?

[raven brook]

But also extremely emotionally unstable

[wanton pendant]

No reason, but it's... alluring... like a lure.

[ruby heart]

that was the old plan yes, but instead of being due to inferiority complex, it was mostly due to the fear

of being betrayed or left alone again

[flat berry]

I do think fighting old duke happens if your headcanon is that the terraria is actively fighting the plague and the acid rain to try and find a cure for those

[raven brook]

I think a middle ground could be

[wanton pendant]

I don't think you can really 'find a cure' for the Plague.

[flat berry]

I know

But it would

[ruby heart]

basically the player and the duke would be indulging each other the entire game, the player pushing the duke into its more cruel side, and when shit gets real the player finally notices what they did and decide to jump ship, which OD sees as him being betrayed or discarded again, fight happen etc ( was the old ideia)

[wanton pendant]

And Acid Rain I think takes a bit of a long process of environmental recovery.
Which is why you should recycle instead of using the trash slot.

[ruby heart]

Old ideia.. old duke

[flat berry]

Like with crimson and corruption

[ruby heart]

the new one still is a bit like this but it has more stuff into it

[long bloom]

i really like the idea of the player having relationships with bosses

[raven brook]

My main gripe is that the way you described the new one seems to put OD in a much more "victimized" spot and like he wasn't really a overarching antagonist and we entirely are responsible for his turn

[long bloom]

that's epic

[raven brook]

Like he was just a victim that we indulged into becoming a villain

[hollow pivot]

Why would the player be pushing Duke to be more evil and how?

[leaden bridge]

Idt you're ever going to get satisfying answers as to why the terrarian will fight any given boss from a neutral perspective because the narrative elements r simply not built for that. If you want a satisfying one you have to insert an actual character in there

[raven brook]

While the old one seems more like

He was already a villain

We just made him Worse

[wanton pendant]

I believe the playerbase also likes the idea. Just look at Twitter or the Reddit.

[raven brook]

I think it could be fun if

[ruby heart]

anyway the main things i want is

• character change and growth through it, right now everything is settled for most characters, you just clean up the issue
• active player participation, the player is the one to cause the situation pretty much
• fully optional and would have activities through the entire game section

[raven brook]

OD ruled over the jade palace and the other offshoot kings were like

"governors" basically

[wanton pendant]

Something something YOU!

[ruby heart]

its half and half

[raven brook]

And maybe the player could idk, somehow

Indulge OD,

convincing him thatt

[ruby heart]

he already had these ideias, and the player let him indulge on it and even support it

[raven brook]

the governors are gonna betray him

[ruby heart]

he would doubt sometimes if he should be doing it and the player would encourage them

[raven brook]

(which could even be partially true0

[wanton pendant]

Old Duke... Chinese... I knew it.

[ruby heart]

its sorta of a yharon, yharim thing sort of

[raven brook]

And that leads to hunting down the kings and stuff

[ruby heart]

but i think yharim was more evil from the beggining

[spare pier]

Again I think this is perfectly doable with a somewhat evil OD

[hollow pivot]

But how would you make Duke more evil?

[ruby heart]

i think at the beggining he is more neutral of the situation, but as the player let him indulge on it, push him more, and they also learn more about the world

his stance and perspective changes

[wanton pendant]

Seize the Mandate of Heaven from him.

[ruby heart]

until the climax and boss fight at the end happens

he shouldnt be evil with the player though, as he trully would have a bond with the player at the end

[spare pier]

I don't think the guy would be a baby eater but I also would rather he be morally questionable

[hollow pivot]

International Tresure?

[wanton pendant]

What?

[spare pier]

I guess that's the best way of describing OD

[ruby heart]

neither was he scheming or manipulative, we have DoG for that

[spare pier]

Morally questionable

[ruby heart]

i mean his ideia of solving the world and its cyclic nature is by becoming a god and erasing everything

so yea

[long bloom]

can you stop spamming this image and burying the chat

[ruby heart]

(the thing i discussed with you in dev server)

[hollow pivot]

Alright.

[wanton pendant]

Ah, a Providence fan I see.

[ruby heart]

its just that he would never act upon these or do it, without the player encouragement and participation

[flat berry]

If i were to give my headcannon, the only bosses the terrarian would actively fight would be:

Dessert scourge
Eye
Brain/devourer
Skeletron
The clam
Hive mind/perforators
Slime god
Wall of flesh
Mechs
Plantera
Golem
Ravager
Cal clone
The plaguebringer goliath (this one is just draedon himself sending it to hunt you down)
Aureus
The cultist
Deus
Moonlord
Nuggets
Providence
The envoys
Dog
Yharom
Exo mechs
Scal

[ruby heart]

desert scourge is a optional fight

same situation as queen bee

[wanton pendant]

Plaguebringer Goliath is out of Draedon's control.

[hollow pivot]

There's a movie called “National Treasure” about stealing the Declaration of Independance. “Mandate of Heaven” gives me the same vibes as “Declaration of Independence”.

[spare pier]

"If i were to give my headcannon, the only bosses the terrarian would actively fight would be"

Fucking everyone

[flat berry]

I forgot also cryogen

[flat berry]

No?

[wanton pendant]

Mandate of Heaven is a concept. Like Divine Right, but Chinese.

[flat berry]

I literally skiped all the optional bosses but scourge and clam

[wanton pendant]

They aren't envoys.

[spare pier]

You skipped like three bosses 😭

[ruby heart]

the player dont really have a reasoning to kill desert scourge, principally the new one

[wanton pendant]

Most of the optional bosses are there.

[ruby heart]

out of them wanting loot and gear

[flat berry]

But you need it to free amidias

[ruby heart]

its a queen bee situation

[raven brook]

This seems more like a "saviour complexs" type character, which

Ik you brought up that we have too many evil johnevils but also providence and dogma are both that too aren't they

[ruby heart]

?

🥹

[wanton pendant]

Amidias is optional.

[ruby heart]

where does this come from

[raven brook]

I mean desert scourge is ap redator isn't it

[ruby heart]

yea

[spare pier]

Cheeeese

[raven brook]

Maybe bro was just hungry and the player did in self-defense

[ruby heart]

but he isnt like evil

[hollow pivot]

What does it do?

[raven brook]

Yeha he isn't evil

[spare pier]

I have an idea I just would rather not say it here

😭

[raven brook]

But it is a wild predator

[wanton pendant]

Have you not heard of divine right?

[ruby heart]

yea but they do it in diferent ways

[raven brook]

Like if a tiger attacaked you you wouldnt really be in the wrong for fighting back

[hollow pivot]

And how did we find out about it?

[ruby heart]

but ye saviour complex kinda works

[raven brook]

Which you could kinda say the same for having too many evil characters or whatnot, no? They just do evil in different ways

Old Duke isn't Yharon

[flat berry]

True, but considering lore, saving him is something the terrarian would do

[raven brook]

Even if he was a john evil

They have diff motiavtions and ideologies

[spare pier]

I actually have a character in a story that's kinda similar to what I might do

[ruby heart]

i never said he isnt evil, i just dont want him to be like

[flat berry]

Tho in my headcannon, the terrarian is just trying to fix the world like in vanilla

[ruby heart]

comically evil guy that slaves babies and has a evil scheming plan

[wanton pendant]

The Mandate of Heaven was the claim that the emperor of China was literally chosen by Heaven to rule.
Therefore, anything he did right was the will of Heaven, but if anything went wrong it was Heaven punishing China for having an unworthy ruler who no longer was favoured by Heaven.

[ruby heart]

and is manipulating the player

[spare pier]

That was never my intention either btw

[ruby heart]

he would be mostly neutral at the beggining, but with the player encouragement and stuff, it would eventually end up with that

[raven brook]

I get that and i'm sorry if i'm being too pushy or argumentative

i think i just,

[ruby heart]

like he has some fucked up ideias at the beggining, which he himself questions even, but through the quest, killing the offshoot kings, learning of the god king stuff, the auric dragons, the player encouragement and their bond

it would end up with him doing the fucked up stuff he eventually do by the end

[spare pier]

The way I view it OD and the player would be partners in crime but he'd never really be hiding anything

[ruby heart]

the player is the Yharon to old duke Yharim (uncanny phrase)

[raven brook]

Really liked the idea of OD being someone who's motivated by a deeply ingrained infeirority complex caused by dragon society and his life during his younger days being one of that being constantly shunned and left an outfcast (haha) rather than him really being actively altruistic (Even if not necessarily "good")

Like dudei sn't about saving the world he's about saving himself

[hollow pivot]

Do you plan to add different ways of progressing throughout the storyline or is it always just us motivating the guy into becoming Yharon2?

[long bloom]

what if: primordial wyrm

[ruby heart]

that is still what it is though, he is sorta both now

[raven brook]

Eh

You can't just get a character and fit it in another like that randomly

[long bloom]

i suppose

[ruby heart]

primordial wyrm already has stuff for it i think, he wouldnt work with that anyway

[raven brook]

I think describing him as neutral at first is what's getting me

[ruby heart]

his saviour complex is erasing the world because he thinks its a lost cause p much

when he properly ascends

[wanton pendant]

Old Duke will have the power to be Bold Duke or Gold Duke, based on your actions.

[ruby heart]

and only keep him and the player alive

[raven brook]

To me he's already evil from the beggining. A ruler who wants to be in control, you just make him worse, indulge him into taking direct action and hating things even more than he already does

Like at the start of things

He just wants to keep thing as they are

But as the player indulges him

His view gets gradually more pessimistic

[ruby heart]

yea he already has these thins from the beggining, but he also knows its wrong and questions himself for it, the player allows him to fully indulge on that

and evetually realize it

[raven brook]

and his already existing hatred for the dragons, offshoots, gods whatnot

Just gets worse and worse

Which yeah

Could lead to hi must going

FUCK EVERYTHING DESTROY EVERYTHING THIS WORLD SUCKS

[ruby heart]

and he also gets knowledge on how the world works on a cycle

and its p much getting worse

auric dragons > gods > yharim > the player > repeat

he thinks there isnt a solution for it and the dragons doomed the world from the point they took the world soul shards

[raven brook]

To me the story dosen't really feel like "history repeats"

[spare pier]

Tbf I don't think that's really the solution and it isn't very narratively fitting with the Soul of Frost

[raven brook]

it's more like

history ryhmes

so maybe defeating OD is

narratively

prooving that history isn't really repeating

[ruby heart]

yea, its all being discussed still, wip

i just hope and i really dont want him to be a evil scheaming guy, nefarious

[hollow pivot]

Why not get all the World Shards and give them to one guy or destroy them all?

[wanton pendant]

It's a bit late for that.

[spare pier]

It makes a lot more sense to me if OD's plan isn't erasing everything to stop the cycle, but rather y'know

[leaden bridge]

Why not just leave the damn thing alone,,.,.,.

[spare pier]

Halting it completely

[flat berry]

Tho i have my own "fanfics" with the lore of my first ever 5 characters (one for each class)

[ruby heart]

isn't that what yharim is doing already though, but ye it make sense

[raven brook]

What if to halt the cycle his goal is to make it so him and the player are going to forever be in power

[hollow pivot]

Why doesn't bro team up with Providence?

[raven brook]

Which also further parallels

yharim and yharon

[ruby heart]

yea

[raven brook]

and then the player goe s"nuh uh"

and he goes "WHAT THE FUCK"

and thats how the fight happens

, that would be a great wayo f like

meshing together both of the narrative visions here

[ruby heart]

he wants the player to be his yharim (and you refuse it)

[hollow pivot]

Terrarian is just Yharim that doesn't become doomer and go to aerie and hide.

[ruby heart]

if i get more digital art powers (which i plan to this year ) i really want to make a custom """ending """ cutscene if you say yes to joining the old duke at the end

(its just a little cinematic that plays then resets back to before you make the decision, a what if)

[hollow pivot]

I think Cuphead has that.

[ruby heart]

yea

the devil one

other games have it too but i cant remember exactly rn