lore-discussion

[cloud ibex]

it could have been literally any animal and yharim would've been just as pissed at draedon

[eager bluff]

and also moon lord is just balls to the walls strong so while the combined force of half the dragons jumping one guy is normally enough to make that guy a fine paste that doesnt work for moon lord

[raven brook]

Draedon dosen't have a moral compass but he can see when kingdoms are being incinerated and go "yeah thats a kingdom being incinerated"

[plucky juniper]

hes probably more than anything confused on why yharim is complaining about bees all of a sudden

[graceful warren]

I mean Draedon was a pretty evil guy

[eager bluff]

he really wasnt

[raven brook]

Ehh

[dusk laurel]

draedon isnt really evil at all

[eager bluff]

outside of a few fucked up things he isnt evil

[long bloom]

he fundamentally cannot be evil

[raven brook]

Whether Draedon is evil or not, is debatable

I personally think it depends on ur definition

Of evil

[terse moss]

I feel like Draedon is absolute neutral

[raven brook]

I'm kinda wishywashy on it

[long bloom]

he can do evil things, but he's not evil

objectively

[graceful warren]

Okay i mean he did some bad stuff

[terse moss]

He wasn’t doing anything with malice or intent to harm

[long bloom]

he's amoral

[cloud ibex]

he's fucked up

[plucky juniper]

from human perspective, he is evil, but thats because morality doesnt matter to him, only the pursuit of science

[raven brook]

But like

[graceful warren]

Yeah I guess your right. Everything he does is in the name of science

[cloud ibex]

not actively evil, far from good

[raven brook]

This isn't about whether Draedon did bad things or not

[cloud ibex]

just fucked up

[terse moss]

Did he use his science to improve anyone’s quality of life?

[plucky juniper]

so doing fucked up evil shit doesnt really phase him

[eager bluff]

none of his actions are from malice

[terse moss]

Or was it just for the love of the game

[agile matrix]

is draedon evil???

[raven brook]

It's about how Yharim judged him while he's actively doing way worse which is kinda hypocritical

[agile matrix]

he may be cruel/cold but he's not Evil i dont think

[dusk laurel]

draedon's entire goal is to advance his scientific understanding, and his lack of a moral compass doesnt prevent him from doing messed up shit, but thats not his goal nor did he do it often until he started working for yharim

[cloud ibex]

just for the love of the game

[long bloom]

he's the only reason modernish technology exists in terraria

[plucky juniper]

but they are, from our morality, pretty shitty

[raven brook]

Draedon would be evil if he was a human imo, but the fact he literally does not have the capability to have a moral compass and is doing what he is Built to Do, makes him hard to judge as neutral

[cloud ibex]

if his scientific advancements end up improving people's lives, cool

[raven brook]

as evil*

But like,

aGAIN

[terse moss]

Like Draedon inventing medicine or something similar would save more lives then he took

[agile matrix]

(he does not do action with the intent of harm, and infact does not WANT to harm unless he knows he'll be able to work with it again methinks)

[raven brook]

This is more of a philosophical question

[cloud ibex]

if they end up worsening people's lives, whatever

[raven brook]

That depends on what you define as evil lol

[cloud ibex]

draedon doesn't care

[graceful warren]

Like putting the souls of Yharim soliders into mining equipment that was welded together to make a weapon

[plucky juniper]

anyhow im gonna go complain about pirate crabulon and why that doesnt really work in #calamity-update-talk , come and converse with me if you're interested

buh bye

[worldly spindle]

I don't think Yharim was ticked off by the fact that PBG's will was assimilated instead of being killed.
I think what he didn't like was that Draedon harmed a completely innocent party. He values nature, untouched by the gods. Look at his Queen Bee entry.

[terse moss]

Didn’t they actively agree to that

[raven brook]

Those soldiers were fully willing

And yharim supported it

yeah

[long bloom]

i think you should see what they cook before forming an opinion

[plucky juniper]

fair enough

[graceful warren]

No they did and it was funny

[raven brook]

While that may take a part on it, it definitely has to do wtih assimiliation and enslaving

Yharim hates the thouight of removing someone else's control/free will

[terse moss]

They were there for the love of the game

[plucky juniper]

also now that i think about it

[raven brook]

The queen bee entry even talks about how he admires the fact they're so united without any sort of forceful control

For the mutual benefit of the hive

[graceful warren]

Because even Draedon himself admitted he didn't really even try when making the mechs

[raven brook]

He likely was a slave himself

[terse moss]

Imagine making something stronger than slime god as a throwaway project

[agile matrix]

didnt draedon make it not out of ""passion"" (like exos) but instead just as war machines

[terse moss]

That’s really funny

[graceful warren]

Basically the mechs were just a test run for the exo mechs

[terse moss]

Common slime god downscale

[worldly spindle]

That makes sense

[plucky juniper]

notably, Yharim on hindsight even thinks Polterghast and how he caused that thing to happen via consigning way too many prisoners to a horrible dungeon is a good reason for him to die

[eager bluff]

if yharim cared about harming completely innocent parties as much as he cares about preventing someone from having control of their own life he would have been a whole lot more careful about who he indiscriminantly murdered

[cloud ibex]

the normal mechs were an assignment while the exos were to test himself

[agile matrix]

yea

[raven brook]

Except he fucking lied about that too and was also just guilt tripping you lmaooo

The humble statis bestiary entries

[plucky juniper]

considering imprisonment inherently requires removing control from someone, that does kinda work out with his perspective

[terse moss]

John Hypocrite

[agile matrix]

one was "hey man make me doom machines" while the other was "So what if I wanted those doom machines."

[terse moss]

As it should be

[raven brook]

He would rather say it was a lack of action on his part

[plucky juniper]

what does that even mean

[raven brook]

Than to admit it was 1 guy who was one of his biggest enemies taking down several of his soldiers

[terse moss]

It would’ve taken so much effort to not throw them in there

[dusk laurel]

bone lee bestiary entry

[raven brook]

A bunch of new bestiary entries from brainstorm

[worldly spindle]

Point being, it's important to remember that Yharim's genocide was very calculated and not for the love of the game. He sees himself as a hero after all.
He doesn't like hurting people. But he hurts gods and their followers because he genuinely sees them as deserving.

[raven brook]

Statis killed a bunch of dungeon guards from yharmy

He raided it to save fellow kinsmen

[long bloom]

i don't think you can definitively say he doesn't like hurting people

[terse moss]

How strong are Statis and Braelor?

[plucky juniper]

like, what does statis killing yharmy people have to do with the whole prison thing aside from them being in said prison

[dusk laurel]

statis went into the dungeon, massacred a shit ton of guards, freed a bunch of people, and created polterghast as a consequence

[terse moss]

Like individually

[long bloom]

jury's still out

[worldly spindle]

I suppose

[raven brook]

While this is pretty close i would say

A better wording would be

He likes hurting people. He deludes himself into thinking he dosen't.

[plucky juniper]

okay im leaving stasis to get yaoied by signus then

[worldly spindle]

Now that's an interesting take

[long bloom]

is the polterghast part public

[worldly spindle]

Do you think he did a brief moment of introspection when he saw PBG, then?

[terse moss]

Is statis stronger or weaker than polterghast

[agile matrix]

yharim would say he hates hotline miami and then 100% it /hj

[terse moss]

Like could he have gone and just killed polterghast

[dusk laurel]

before yharim got some exo upgrades (becuase of this fight btw) braelor and statis wouldve won against yharim if dog didnt intervene

[eager bluff]

i dont think hes capable of introspection on that level

[terse moss]

Oh, so like SCal adjacent

Dang

[long bloom]

together, yes

individually, idk

[dusk laurel]

exos were said to have been made to be as strong as yharim when draedon last saw him, meaning that yharim was around exos/scal tier in strength

[terse moss]

And that was years ago

[dusk laurel]

no

[terse moss]

No?

[dusk laurel]

half a year ago

[terse moss]

Oh dang

How did he get that strong in 6 months

[long bloom]

the exo armor was a huge buff

[dusk laurel]

meaning braelor and statis were both in post ml tier of strength, braelor being higher than statis but still

[agile matrix]

exo armor

[terse moss]

Doesn’t he have Auric?

Wait

[dusk laurel]

he has auric armor with exo upgradxes

[terse moss]

Ah

[long bloom]

his auric armor was augmented with exo tech

[dusk laurel]

yeah

[plucky juniper]

anyhow yikes that is a pretty poorly conceived idea to just make yharim decide to implicate himself harder for some reason

[terse moss]

And he got a better sword or something I think

His old sword sucked

[dusk laurel]

not proven

[long bloom]

?

[dusk laurel]

only armor was confirmed to be upgraded

we dont even know anything about his sword dawg

[terse moss]

Didn’t he get a batter sword? That might be old lore

[long bloom]

we don't even know what his sword looks like

there's no info about it

[plucky juniper]

like okay i get he he lies but why the fuck would he lie about his involvement in polterghast by... playing up his role in causing that?

huh?

[terse moss]

I thought he still had the exo blade or whatever

[dusk laurel]

no dont bring up that weapon its not his sword anymore since the rewrite 4 years ago

[long bloom]

he wants you to feel bad for him

[eager bluff]

exoblade wasnt even yharims it was draedons

[agile matrix]

why though

[eager bluff]

because he wants you to finish what he started

[terse moss]

But current lore Draedon had the pulse rifle

[long bloom]

buh

[long bloom]

yes

[agile matrix]

how do i phrase this .

why would he want to be pitied, vs being an icon of """good"""

[terse moss]

So Yharim has a weapon of some variety that is likely roughly auric tier

[plucky juniper]

like honestly considering its statis, a guy who worships a god and is lovers with the champion of another (still technically living) god, then ya i think he'd be more likely to shit on statis and say

"Yeah he helped caused that polterghast shit"

[dusk laurel]

i was referring to true tyrant's ultisword or whatever it was called but i think that was a replica/weaker version and not the exact same now that i think about it

[long bloom]

he wants you to believe he fell from grace

[plucky juniper]

i see that point tho

[eager bluff]

you feel bad for him -> less likely to hate him -> more likely to believe what hes saying -> more likely to finish the job

[plucky juniper]

i know he plays up dog's manipulations byeah

[long bloom]

because like
you really can't hide how much he fucked up the world

[agile matrix]

you kinda can, via rephrasing

like GENUINE mistake yeah you cant hide that

[long bloom]

look Outside

[wanton pendant]

Anything to get you to join the Crusade. Nothing matters more.

[agile matrix]

but you could also go "learning from that error, i found better methods"

instead of "i was an idiot and forgot

[gritty summit]

You know,there's a word for what Providence and her followers believe in.
Antinatalism.

[terse moss]

What happened to all the soldiers

[eager bluff]

thats also an oversimplification

[agile matrix]

i mean yeah

[wanton pendant]

I believe the word is 'eradication' more than anything.

[long bloom]

they kinda just fucked off

[agile matrix]

i cant pull up the lore on a whim

[terse moss]

Why isn’t the Yharmy still killing guys

[spare pier]

Imagine if you told your entire army that one guy managed to butcher your most fortified station in the entire world

[long bloom]

went home

[terse moss]

Like elect a new leader

[long bloom]

some are

[wanton pendant]

Someone should make a document for it.

[long bloom]

most aren't

[gritty summit]

Providence and her followers are explicitly said to believe pain isn't a price worth paying for living life. That is the foundation of antinatalism.

[agile matrix]

point contiguous

[plucky juniper]

isnt he talking to you and not an army

[agile matrix]

i dont have the patience to skim it

[plucky juniper]

hes already interested in divulging stuff he probably hasnt told to his soldiers

[long bloom]

ok

[eager bluff]

more accurately he says "dog egged me on until i didnt deal with shit that i should have dealt with"
he doesnt take blame for it, he shifts the blame for polterghast over to dog

[plucky juniper]

like. xeroc having insane power?

[graceful warren]

Also im not gonna lie I hope when they rework clamitas clone. They make it an actual robot version and not just a eye

[spare pier]

He has to keep the narrative he tells everyone else or else it starts to crack

[long bloom]

she'll be a human

[wanton pendant]

They will not. Why would they?

[plucky juniper]

like what i was told as a reason why apparently we cant hear about xeroc before Requiem, otherwise people wouldnt even bother to join yharims side apparently?

[wanton pendant]

That would require rewriting the entire character.

[dusk laurel]

calamitas clone is a perfect biological clone of calamitas, not just something to simulate her

[plucky juniper]

purely mechanical calamitas robot sounds hilarious

[agile matrix]

cyborg :)

[wanton pendant]

It would be a bit of a big loss of morale to tell everyone there's a god that's basically unbeatable.

[dusk laurel]

terraria players yearn for more mechanical bosses...

[long bloom]

wall of bronze

[spare pier]

Xeroc is another thing which like, yeah it's fine to divulge that to you because that's also the entire reason he's egging you to continue his legacy

[agile matrix]

prehardmode: lil beasts and shit
hardmode: all mechanical
postml: gods

this will be calamity in 3000

[terse moss]

I do think it’s funny that he can’t tell you about Xeroc because you might get to scared lol

“Hey so now that you are here, you might as well fight the sun”

[plucky juniper]

also i dunno that doesnt really work because of the acension ritual somehow being learned after xeroc leaving terraria, only for you to just not be able to learn it well after all 1,400+ auric dragons being zucced and all

[terse moss]

Sunk cost fallacy you into fighting the sun

[plucky juniper]

some details gotta get tied up about that

[graceful warren]

Oh they will. I was under the thought it was a robot

[wanton pendant]

Yharim probably did a lot of book burnings.

[agile matrix]

im sorry what verb is that

[long bloom]

perfect genetic clone of calamitas

[graceful warren]

Simply just because how the original boss looked

[agile matrix]

after all 1,400+ aurics got ? and all

[wanton pendant]

She's 'inside' the eye.
The eye has no origin or explanation.

[agile matrix]

what verb is that???

[wanton pendant]

They all joined Facebook.

[terse moss]

What verb

[plucky juniper]

what swaping a s with z does

[agile matrix]

aah

[graceful warren]

I mean if it's a perfect clone why dont they just use the original sprite early and ditch the eye

[long bloom]

they're gonna ditch the eye

[wanton pendant]

Because she's a clone, why would she have the same outfit, or be in the same level of health?

[plucky juniper]

(meant to use zucc to swap out with succ, as shorthand for ascend with auric soul and all)

[wanton pendant]

Clothing and such isn't genetic.

[graceful warren]

I mean no probably not. We know the clone was much weaker and couldn't even use brimstone majic till coming into contact with clamitas

[terse moss]

Isn’t Calamitas just wearing like regular robes

[icy veldt]

If their society as a whole was tyrannical and immutable, then even the ones that were "good" really weren't actually good

[plucky juniper]

no they're pretty fancy

[terse moss]

I feel like that couldn’t be that hard to acquire

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, and where is an insane clone going to get one?
She can't just call a tailor.

[terse moss]

Hm, good point

[wanton pendant]

And I doubt fashion sense is genetic.

[terse moss]

She should make wooden armor

[graceful warren]

Honestly it being in something like a hospital goan would make sense

[terse moss]

Or buy a GI from the traveling merchant

[plucky juniper]

like go and tell me this is REGULAR robes

[wanton pendant]

If you ask me, I think Clone would wear a hospital gown that is covered in blood and dirt to make the illusion of a magic robe.

[agile matrix]

exo robe!!!

all draedon .......... it all comes back to him .............

(hyperbole intended)

[terse moss]

Draedon would make a fire tailor

[graceful warren]

Considering when it escaped it probably would have been in a some simple hospital style clothing

[terse moss]

He would be so precise

[plucky juniper]

well that sounds oddly revelationary

[wanton pendant]

They still won't tell me who her tailor is.
I think it's Bloingus.

[agile matrix]

its gloomborf

[long bloom]

it's so old i thought everyone here knew already

[terse moss]

SCal went to a tailor directly before her fight with you to make sure she looked fabulous

[long bloom]

true

[plucky juniper]

well thats old news

and when people assume its old enough for common knowledge, they just dont elaborate upon it

[terse moss]

Do we know why skeleton is inside the clothier?

Or anything about the dungeon guardians

[long bloom]

read skeletron bestiary

[agile matrix]

dungeon guardians i think are gameplay mechanic moreso than lore (no clue if calamity changes it)

[graceful warren]

I belive a bunch of soliders died down there hints Polterghast

[wanton pendant]

Curse.

[plucky juniper]

i bet you $5.25 that someone probably still hasnt gotten a clue that 2.1 released and it's not SSO

[long bloom]

polterghast and skeletron are completely unrelated

[wanton pendant]

Dungeon Guardian is part of Skeletron Curse.

[terse moss]

The dungeon guardians have to be gameplay because they are stronger than SCal

[plucky juniper]

anyhow

[wanton pendant]

I bet you're right.

[graceful warren]

I know that I was just referring to what the dungeon has to do with calamity

[spare pier]

Yeah Dungeon Guardian is a curse which just acts entirely differently from everything else, like

[dusk laurel]

i think i knew from a different thing but i may be misremembering but it definitely wasnt in reddit

[wanton pendant]

Why doesn't Yharim make Xeroc go into the Dungeon pre-Skeletron?
Is he stupid?

[icy veldt]

Gloomborf boutta boof that glorm fr f--gets incinerated

[spare pier]

I generally consider that if something only works under extremely limited circumstances, then it's fine if it's seemingly too strong

[graceful warren]

Also why did Yharim have beef with the empress of light

[wanton pendant]

He hates her parents I guess.

[long bloom]

she steals power from xeroc (a god)
thereby making her related to gods

[plucky juniper]

the fact that apparently Calamitas managed to get a fabulou--- err, grandiose set of robes made for her, may imply that Calamitas has contacts with other people

[terse moss]

But the DoG does too

[long bloom]

he doesn't absorb any of the essence

it just poofs

[icy veldt]

DoG was useful to Yharim, EoL was not

[wanton pendant]

She had 12 years, that's enough time to make at least one friend.

[terse moss]

Wouldn’t he be pro sapping Xeroc’s power

[terse moss]

The safest commoner ever

[plucky juniper]

yup. she apparently has one friend

which is fucking huge actually

[graceful warren]

Oh I didn't know that

[plucky juniper]

i assumed she was a complete shut in isolationist at that point

[wanton pendant]

I mean, in comparison to Calamitas most people are huge.

[terse moss]

Jumbo the tailor gets robbed and SCal blows up their house

[long bloom]

she's AVERAGE HEIGHT

[wanton pendant]

In Spain.

[plucky juniper]

buddy her face is HUGE.

[terse moss]

What?

[wanton pendant]

Where I assume everyone is tiny.

[plucky juniper]

and WIDE

[terse moss]

Wait isn’t she the height of the player

[long bloom]

she's 5'4"

[wanton pendant]

5"4'.

[graceful warren]

Also wasn't the dragon of gullonty the one slime god absorbed

[plucky juniper]

ya

[terse moss]

So perfectly average

[wanton pendant]

Yeah.

Well, Gluttony, but I think you meant that.

[graceful warren]

See i knew that 1 hour and 30 minutes calmility lore video would pay off

[wanton pendant]

The horror.

[long bloom]

[terse moss]

Nah that sounds fire

[wanton pendant]

You should be reading the 90 page document.

[terse moss]

As long as it’s correct

[long bloom]

(it's not)
(i guarantee it)

[terse moss]

😔

[plucky juniper]

@graceful warren READ

[graceful warren]

Yeah it's mostly correct some speculation tho because the lore is so loose

[long bloom]

that's the reference doc tupid

[plucky juniper]

this is what we have ingame. take a gander, its neat

[plucky juniper]

well it does have a link to the master doc

but fine

this is better for newcomers

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, how are we meant to get marketing done without it!

[graceful warren]

So what all creatures were decent of dragons again

[long bloom]

wyverns
pigrons
fishrons
basilisks
eidolon wyrms

uhh

follies

[graceful warren]

So alot

[wanton pendant]

Dragons made more dragons. I think Jurassic Park was about that.

[long bloom]

also bone serpents are honorary offshoots

adopted by zaelithar

[plucky juniper]

okay friendly reminder that the terrarian is probably not a god, otherwise yharim would not be trying to guilt trip you into continuing his genocide

[wanton pendant]

'Probably'.

[plucky juniper]

@long bloom what are they then actually

[wanton pendant]

They're snakes or something.

[long bloom]

non dragon obsidian snake things

[terse moss]

Why is the terrarian so much stronger and more capable than a normal human

Or is every human just strong as hell

[long bloom]

you're just turbo cracked

[dusk laurel]

we are just built different

[sinful adder]

you don't start out way stronger but you quickly get that way

[plucky juniper]

well there is always the "THE TERRARIAN LORE IS UP TO YOU" thing

[terse moss]

Like why doesn’t every random miner have 400 health. Life crystals are not rare

[long bloom]

• tons of training
• fucking insane ingenuity with inventing super powerful gear by ourselves
• permanent health upgrades

[long bloom]

they might

[terse moss]

That’s hilarious actually

[wanton pendant]

Yeah but they all get like, eaten by giant worms, skeletons, monsters masquerading as humans, slimes, other humans, lava.

[sinful adder]

the player can get magic items to increase their vitality by about 6 times more than a normal person, but the vast majority of their strength comes from being cracked at dodging

[terse moss]

Fair

[long bloom]

reminder that you canonically don't die

ever

[plucky juniper]

personally i'd wager a few possibilities:

• a cracked guy
• an experimental supersoldier
• the champion of a living or dead god

[long bloom]

not once

[plucky juniper]

what you probably arent is an auric dragon given that auric ore rejects you

[terse moss]

Also, hell in terraria obviously isn’t like an afterlife, so is there a canon afterlife?

[wanton pendant]

'Probably'.

[sinful adder]

probably not

[wanton pendant]

Polterghast, I guess?

[sinful adder]

I've been thinking about a terrarian story that involves them being a war robot

[terse moss]

LOL

[wanton pendant]

I wonder why...

[long bloom]

ghosts

[sinful adder]

or like a cyborg

[terse moss]

all must join the super beetle

[split mortar]

My terrarian has noxus shenanigans going on and still has to be extremely risky to grow fast

[plucky juniper]

inb4 addon where you learn the acension ritual and find a still living auric dragon and take their soul for yourself, so you get to have permanent auric rejection immunity

[wanton pendant]

Yeah, he's called Yharon.

[terse moss]

Well yharon is right there

[sinful adder]

inspirations are cave story, mega man, and a little bit of ultrakill

[wanton pendant]

No, that's impossible!

[plucky juniper]

isnt like yharon the guy who tps his soul on death to somewhere else

[wanton pendant]

Yeah.

Just go get it.

[split mortar]

To the aerie

[terse moss]

Just nab it

[wanton pendant]

It's sitting next to Golden Hitler.

[terse moss]

Just like yoink it

Get a big vacuum

[split mortar]

Which we will have access to post hitler fight

[plucky juniper]

yoink it while he watches lmao

[terse moss]

Beat Yharim up, don’t kill him, and then absorb Yharon’s soul

[sinful adder]

?

[wanton pendant]

I'm joking.

[sinful adder]

oh

[plucky juniper]

unironically, that would be a very funny way to do the ending choice idea i've seen being proposed by one of the lorewriters

[sinful adder]

but yeah I really want to know what the best tech the crusade's opposition had was like

[agile matrix]

i personally think that my terrarians really strong bc they had one (1) apple fritter b4 falling from teh sky

[wanton pendant]

Depends on which group you're talking about.
There would be both entire states and groups of rebels. They would have differing levels of resources.

[sinful adder]

or alternatively possible rebels from within their thing

either, both

I want to know all the details

[plucky juniper]

beat up yharim, and you either choose to accept yharim's guilttriping and seek the death of the gods, or reject him and take his best friend's soul and give yharim the electric springtrap treatment

[agile matrix]

exaaaactly

[mighty zenith]

absorbing yharon's soul would literally just springlock him

bro would get fried instantly

[wanton pendant]

Ilmeris was able to defend against Yharim's forces sieging for an unclear amount of time, likely most of the Crusade given their location.

[agile matrix]

absorbing Yharim's soul and getting him in my head like cortana

[plucky juniper]

im convinced this is actually why there's lore on how the Ascension ritual requires you to actually know how it works instead of just merely taking an Auric Soul

[sinful adder]

yeah. But they can't be the only guys

[plucky juniper]

as well as why yharon's soul just tps away

[mighty zenith]

its that and making an accurate representation of ascension would be really complicated and/or unsatisfying

[plucky juniper]

because if both of these existed, then you'd just pick the ascend and instakill yharim

and the story would just end there

[terse moss]

The terrarian might just not be interested ig

They have fought and killed gods with relative ease

[plucky juniper]

you wouldnt even meet yharim ya'd just know hes dead if ya think about it

[terse moss]

What is the power of a god to them at this point

[sinful adder]

no one left alive knows the ritual and is willing to tell you it

[agile matrix]

i know it! you gotta hold the rock then hold the soul and then you go "please please please please please please please please" and repeat that like a million times

[wanton pendant]

You aren't?

Finally, now people can stop asking about how to become a god (we don't know either).

[terse moss]

Absorb slime God’s soul

[wanton pendant]

DAMN IT!

[terse moss]

It would be mad funny

[sinful adder]

that would be different

[agile matrix]

eat some rock candies

[wanton pendant]

(Also that won't make you a god, it would probably just give you cancer or something.)

[terse moss]

I think the terrarian can survive cancer

Especially with how goated the nurse is

Pay her one million gold and she cures your cancer or something

[plucky juniper]

imo i think needing a ritual for ascension is a bit contrived, but this possible reason why it was written is completely understandable

you must have limitations to ensure that the story has stakes

and also to avoid the "well why didn't the hero just do this earlier?" situation

[spare pier]

It's mostly because allowing the player to ascend ingame is impossible

[terse moss]

Wait why

[spare pier]

Not only because yeah it's just springlock Yharim but also...

How do we even make a God Terrarian look like?

Not only is the domain you obtain dependent on the person, but also how the fuck would that look like ingame?

[eager bluff]

how do you make that look while still being recognizably the player

[terse moss]

Maybe adjacent to the Providence accessory thing

[spare pier]

What powers would we give the player? And how do we make sure that they're both meaningful while also not being game breakingly strong?

[terse moss]

Make it so revives are canon, and maybe bosses don’t regain lost health between deaths (and the make bosses that require multiple trials or something)

[plucky juniper]

that would be quite tough ngl

[spare pier]

That falls under game breakingly powerful

[eager bluff]

and also respawns being canon hinges on

[terse moss]

Fair

[eager bluff]

giving the player the lore that they ascended prior to the game beginning

[terse moss]

I just thought it would be a way to justify beating Xeroc, who is way out of their league with no current path up

[plucky juniper]

i personally think for my hypothetical addon, your ritual might actually be an imperfect recreation that limits how the ascension process goes

[terse moss]

I meant cannon for that point and after

[wanton pendant]

Even so, you're missing an 850 year headstart.

[plucky juniper]

which could actually allow me to design a more specific design that can be used regardless of the player's personality and stuff

[plucky juniper]

imagine some god supremacist guy eggs you to absorb an auric dragon's soul with this reasoning

[terse moss]

Having to choose to ally with Yharim, Xeroc, or neither would be fire

Ascend to godhood, kill the last gods, or just tear it all down

[wanton pendant]

Choose a side, Hitler, Jesus, or neutral.

[terse moss]

Isn’t Xeroc also evil

[wanton pendant]

At no point is this said.

[terse moss]

I meant contextually

[wanton pendant]

What did Xeroc do that is evil?

[terse moss]

I know there is a lot of biased info from Yharim tho

[eager bluff]

no

[terse moss]

Ah

[eager bluff]

not inherently

[plucky juniper]

"You cannot hope to even have a chance to defeating the full power of the Sun God... unless you take upon divinity for yourself."

[terse moss]

I thought he was kind of selfish and didn’t stop super Hitler when he very very easily could have

Didn’t use godhood to save people or anything

[plucky juniper]

xeroc apparently noped out of Terraria almost immediately after leaving, and he didnt really interfere to stop Yharim's genocide

[terse moss]

I feel like immediately leaving is a moral negative

You have the power to save people but don’t

Actively

[wanton pendant]

We don't know why Xeroc didn't do anything.

For all we know Xeroc was busy with something else.

[eager bluff]

thats not being morally negative

[wanton pendant]

Like, you know, the affairs he mentions attending to?

[terse moss]

Unless he is like single handedly fighting the entire distortion or whatever

[eager bluff]

especially because

he left hundreds of years before yharim was even born

[terse moss]

Only because he took out someone who might have to get that power

Taking that power brings with it some responsibility

[wanton pendant]

Clearly this is Xeroc's weekend plan.

[terse moss]

If he was born with it that would be different

[eager bluff]

and we dont know what he did with said responsibility

[terse moss]

I think that’s the only excuse for how he is a good person, because the distortion is also like hyper evil

[terse moss]

Fair

[eager bluff]

we know he didnt stick around on terraria but outside of that we dont have context for anything hes done

[terse moss]

He totally might have been the world’s strongest soldier

[plucky juniper]

unrelated but he did do ONE good thing for Terraria, and that was make the surface actually inhabitable

[hasty crater]

hello guys my 13th msg here this will curse you all!

[terse moss]

I just think it would be an interesting choice, especially since Aharon has given you so much biased info. You hear from both sides and have to choose or reject

[terse moss]

Honestly, fair

[plucky juniper]

unironically, i personally think Xeroc should be known at the very least for doing that beforehand

like, i get why the writers dont want xeroc to be widely known outside of Yharim

[terse moss]

That was also like a billion years ago

No primary sources left

[plucky juniper]

billion?>

[terse moss]

850?

[plucky juniper]

i dont actually think it was a billion

[terse moss]

Long enough no one could verify it

[plucky juniper]

but like

i dunno man

the surface suddenly becoming inhabitable is not a small thing that can be easily forgotten

[terse moss]

It would be no more verifiable than any religion, it would just be he said she said

[plucky juniper]

especially when its not even that long ago

maybe not the part where Xeroc is known

[spare pier]

I think that if Xeroc was known it'd make the story way too overcentralizing and completely change how the entire world works

[terse moss]

Right but people can say anything about anything, be wrong about why things happen, manipulate the truth for personal gain, or exaggerate

[plucky juniper]

but at the very least people should know, "Hey, the surface is actually inhabitable"

i unironically think that at the very least should be written down somewhere or at least mentioned

[wanton pendant]

I wouldn't be suprised if people assumed it was due to the absence of Zeratros.

[spare pier]

I mean that can be easily justified as the fact that Zeratros Is Fucking Dead

[wanton pendant]

That's another way of putting it.

[terse moss]

Like for context, 850 years ago was 1176, which I believe was like right after the fall of the Roman Empire? In this hypothetical, it would be like he telling you Jupiter controls the lightning or whatever

[terse moss]

Also true

[terse moss]

A lot changes in almost a millennia

[wanton pendant]

Not at all.

[terse moss]

Also, the obvious “if Xeroc is so good, why doesn’t he do x”

[wanton pendant]

1176 was LONG after the Western Roman Empire fell.

Byzantium still has a bit more though.

[plucky juniper]

according to Yharim (bad source ik but hear me out)
yharim claims that most people, at the very least, know that Zeratros died, and at the very least, his loyal monk might have eased his passing

[terse moss]

I will fully admit, I am not great at history

[plucky juniper]

now its yharim and he could be exaggerating

[terse moss]

But something adjacent to that

[plucky juniper]

but i reckon he's working off a basis with this claim

[wanton pendant]

1066 is when England stopped being ruled by Anglo-Saxons.

[terse moss]

Huh

[wanton pendant]

Europe was almost entirely Christian by then.

[plucky juniper]

im not even going to argue that xeroc should be known btw i wanna probe how much is actually known about the surface sun stuff

[spare pier]

I mentioned before but while I think that Xeroc being the God of Light is more of a conspiracy theory and urban legend than anything

[wanton pendant]

Only like, the Baltic, the Vikings and the Finnish were really left not being Christian.

(And southern Spain was Muslim.)

[terse moss]

Wait, is it light, the sun, neither, we don’t know, or are they the same

[spare pier]

There's no concrete proof that Xeroc actually did that and at most people spread it as a legend

[plucky juniper]

how much do people know of the true story behind Zeratros's fate?

[wanton pendant]

Primodial Light, which is the Sun.

[terse moss]

And I am assuming terrarian cosmology is different

[plucky juniper]

oright @spare pier

[plucky juniper]

.

[terse moss]

The sun isn’t an insignificantly small star

[wanton pendant]

Geocentric.

[terse moss]

Ah ok

Makes sense

The sun is the biggest thing that isn’t the world then

[spare pier]

Honestly idk but I think that most people don't even know Zeratros died after the battle

[wanton pendant]

I mean, I'd assume so.

[spare pier]

I think the most common story is that he died fighting the Moon Lord but there are records that he didn't and died later, so it's moreso just a historical misconception that's not widely corrected

But there are exceedingly few, if any about what Xeroc did during that time

[terse moss]

Do people know about all the fovos shenanigans

[plucky juniper]

oh fuck

[wanton pendant]

I feel like that would be well known.
Like, there are gods around who witnessed it.

[terse moss]

Fair

[spare pier]

People know Xeroc existed, yes. Not really by name, moreso as "Zeratros' Dragon Monk", but his history is just poorly recorded and specially after the invasion there is like nothing

[wanton pendant]

Difference between knowing the fall of Rome happened and knowing the name of the guy who assassinated the Emperor and when, I'd assume.

[light linden]

Hi Laura

[spare pier]

So basically everyone just assumes he died fighting in the invasion

[terse moss]

Also, Yharim probably did a ton of propaganda and book burning

[light linden]

Hi wraith and hashbrown

[wanton pendant]

Hello.

[terse moss]

Hello

[light linden]

I think it might've been the opposite to an extent

[long bloom]

blub

[light linden]

Some gods trying to erase info of the dragon they took the auric soul from to make themselves seem like they were around for longer

[terse moss]

Also true

[spare pier]

During the twilight of the draconic era it was more common for some people to be like "oh my God Zeratros' Monk is still alive!" and a scant few spread a conspiracy that he ascended with his soul

[plucky juniper]

the hateful energy pouring into me the moment i get an opportunity to whine about how moon lord should be treated as the terrarian's first big thing and not providence

[terse moss]

How powerful were the monks? Were they fully normal guys or like Braelor level champions of the divine

[plucky juniper]

i am not going to do this rn because i do not want to get heated rn

[terse moss]

I think it’s a big deal. We have a whole third of the game called “post moon lord”

It’s the single biggest power jump in the game

[spare pier]

But with absolutely no records that he even survived the battle, it's just widely regarded that this man who's basically a footnote in draconic history died during the battle and Zeratros' Soul was simply lost

[terse moss]

They dropped it 😔

[long bloom]

would also explain why the sun dimmed

[spare pier]

Later there would be legends and tales of mostly ficticious origin about a Sun God, but they never really attempted to be factual

At most they were based on the tales that there could be one

[plucky juniper]

im only saying that because iirc i argued with rebecca over this

which. was not related to xeroc btw this was about something else

[terse moss]

I think Providence will be a more distinct step once there are more real bosses between Providence and moonlord

She will function more like a plantera or a golem

[wanton pendant]

I see what you're saying... Providence will be a Jungle Boss.

[spare pier]

To me the distinction is that killing the Moon Lord isn't really a heroic deed, specially because the Terrarian is who brings it out of jail

[terse moss]

Fair

[spare pier]

Killing the Moon Lord is more like dusting off your room than really doing a heroic deed

[plucky juniper]

SGNHJRKSGKN Lunatic Culitst. BREAKS. THE. SEAL. INGAME.

[terse moss]

Out of desperation

And you would have if they let themselves get slaughtered

[wanton pendant]

Blame Relogic.

[terse moss]

It was happening regardless

[plucky juniper]

its more like an accident to me imo

like the player probably wanted to kill lunatic cultist... becuase yknow, they lead a cult and they probably did fucked up shit

[dusk laurel]

calamity rev+ cultist rework trust 🙏

[spare pier]

It already attacked, it already destroyed everything before, you're not saving anyone or stopping further harm by killing it

[terse moss]

I thought the plan was to get buffed, kill the terrarian, and then re seal the power

[plucky juniper]

including incidentally to the old man guy you first encountered in that very spot

[spare pier]

The Moon Lord is a bygone fear in Terraria. While killing it is still a great deed of valor, no one is gonna cheer you on for killing Hitler in his retirement home

It's just... over now

[terse moss]

Fair enough

[plucky juniper]

tbh isnt yharim also in that spot

[terse moss]

You go into the home to beat up that old racist grandpa

[terse moss]

Yeah

[spare pier]

If Hitler was still commanding his army from his retirement home then yeah

[plucky juniper]

like. hes given up. sure, he's trying to egg you into being his sucessor and all but like

[spare pier]

[wanton pendant]

That's like if Hitler has been working out in the retirement home and wrote Mein Kampf 2: Kampf Harder in the meantime.

[terse moss]

I thought his army dispersed

[plucky juniper]

hes fucking retired

[terse moss]

LOL

[plucky juniper]

moon lord, yeah he's more than retired yeah but like

[agile matrix]

mostly unrelated: what was mein kampf even about

[plucky juniper]

again as im saying

[agile matrix]

ive heard word of the book so many times and yet ive never seen nor read a word of it other than the cover

[spare pier]

It's more that you're not really solving anything

[wanton pendant]

Hitler talking about his life and political career or something.
It's all just propaganda.

[terse moss]

Wasn’t it like a hate journal

[agile matrix]

oh i see

[wanton pendant]

He wrote it in jail.

[terse moss]

Like not even well written

[spare pier]

You're just taking the Moon Lord out of jail and beating him to death

[wanton pendant]

It was designed to appeal to post-WWI Germans.

[eager bluff]

to roughly paraphrase
why the jews are bad and what he wants you to do about it

[plucky juniper]

the game reads more like you didn't deliberately try to release ML, and now you have to clean up that mess because LC just released it rather than you picking out ML from jail and beating his ass in

[agile matrix]

aaah

[terse moss]

The racist grandpa you are beating to death drops and m1-Abram’s tho

[plucky juniper]

like laura i cannot stress this enough

[terse moss]

So like

[agile matrix]

hilarious: my video just got to moon lord

[plucky juniper]

LC breaks the rock tablet, which is implied to be the seal thats keeping ML in check

[spare pier]

I mean yeah but that's Wrong and we'll address it eventually

[plucky juniper]

LC once sided with yharim.

[spare pier]

That just gives him more reason to not release Moon Lord?

[agile matrix]

i always interpreted it as "im gonna take the seals vast power and use it temporarily to kill the intruder"

[spare pier]

They're both dragon fanatics

[agile matrix]

a gambit moreso

[plucky juniper]

It makes MORE sense for the player to be seeking out LC to just kill him being an asshole rather than
"I want to beat ML's ass for loot"

[terse moss]

Yeah

Or he jumps the cult, and moon lord just happens to spawn

[plucky juniper]

its not only not supported by the ingame stuff, it also just feels... idunno more right

[terse moss]

Like a complete accident

[spare pier]

I mean yeah I didn't say the Terrarian was specifically doing that

But the Terrarian is still who causes that whole bullshit

Good intentions or not

Heh

[terse moss]

You beat up this stupid guy and then the pillars show up

[plucky juniper]

i mean im pretty sure that was what you (rebecca) implied a while ago

[agile matrix]

i mean in my interpretation, since lunatic took the seals power, the seal. yknow. Ceased To Be

[plucky juniper]

i might be misremembering

[spare pier]

I am not Rebecca but sure

[plucky juniper]

fair

[agile matrix]

the big h is Insane

[terse moss]

LOL

[plucky juniper]

at this point the counter should read a negative number

[thick slate]

big h

[wanton pendant]

HEY!
That was yesterday.

[terse moss]

Yharim is pretty strong, but can he do a backflip?

[wanton pendant]

We got this days quota in too.

[wanton pendant]

Yeah.

[terse moss]

Dang

[agile matrix]

this yharim guys pretty strong - goku

[terse moss]

He might have us then

[thick slate]

would goky beat yharim

[terse moss]

The terrarian can’t do a back flip

[wanton pendant]

Who is Goky?

[spare pier]

Anyways

[terse moss]

Only if he isn’t in ssjb

[agile matrix]

haha funny letter

[terse moss]

Anything above or below blue and yes

Blue? No

[spare pier]

My point here is that killing the Moon Lord, despite still being a great feat, is just dealing with the storm after it already passed

[agile matrix]

haha funny color

[terse moss]

It’s like that guy who shot a sniper rifle at a hurricane

[thick slate]

did it work

[terse moss]

No 😔

The terrarian shot more than once tho

[spare pier]

You're not helping anyone by doing it nor are you solving anything. You're just finishing the job way behind of schedule

[terse moss]

I think that made the difference

[agile matrix]

mining an unloaded mods structure from the world AFTER you generate it in the world

the areas still like

Not There

since the thing DID generate

[spare pier]

A more apt comparison would be moving a boulder after it smashed a house

Sure, you moved the boulder but the house is still gone

[terse moss]

I still think the mental image of some really angry guy going into a nursing home, finding like Henry Kissinger, beating him up in a surprisingly close fight despite the fact that he is ancient (yes I know he is dead now) and then his corpse drops a tank and an assault rifle like a loot box

[plucky juniper]

i mean, again,
in the game, LC seemingly releases Moon Lord. Almost immediately, there's pillars invading your place and causing havoc.

As i'm saying, it makes more sense that

• you didnt intend on doing this, but there still are people who would be threatened by these invaders. You still help people.

than:

• you decided to just bring a huge villain who's literally chopped up and far beyond out of his prison and beat his ass for power

its like

[terse moss]

I don’t think the terrarian is a good person tho

Like necessarily

[graceful warren]

I feel like we can excuse all of Yharon crimes. Simply because how good his theme him

[terse moss]

It’s a massive power grab

[thick slate]

moon lord is chopped

[terse moss]

You kill like infinite NPCs and random goblins and whatever

[terse moss]

🤔

[wanton pendant]

How do you think he died?

[spare pier]

I mean yeah even if I still think a combination of both is the best

[terse moss]

True. Trump needed the power boost to get a second term

[wanton pendant]

Genocide?
Fair enough.

[spare pier]

The player kills the Cultist for unrelated reasons and that as consequence brings Moon Lord back

I still think that whole thing should be your fault

Even if it was an accident

[thick slate]

yharim is kinda like the big yahu

[terse moss]

LOL

[plucky juniper]

What do you mean that was my fault? I didnt even know he had the seal in the first place?

[spare pier]

...That's still your fault?

If you accidentally set a house on fire

That's still your fault

[plucky juniper]

like

[thick slate]

fires fault for spreading

[plucky juniper]

laura. i didnt decide to break the seal. the lunatic cultist did

[wanton pendant]

House's fault for being weak.

[thick slate]

exactly

my house wouldnt burn down

[wanton pendant]

I blame Relogic.

[terse moss]

My house would. It is weak of mind and spirit

[spare pier]

But regardless of all that I still think that killing the Moon Lord killing wouldn't really be viewed as a super amazing deed because

[thick slate]

what do they do with moon lord bones

[plucky juniper]

a better allegory would be
i beat up a notorious war criminal in his house, and somehow he decides to activate a nuclear device located underneath Denver that i didnt know about

he decided to activate the device, not me

[terse moss]

I personally like to view the terrarian as a power hungry guy who just wants to get stronger, and any good or bad thing is purely coincidental/secondary

[plucky juniper]

i might have some blame for it given that i chose to beat his sorry ass

[terse moss]

You killed every living thing farming for money? Sure. You killed Providence? That’s nice I guess

[plucky juniper]

but why is it now my fault man

[thick slate]

fuck denver

[terse moss]

True

[agile matrix]

its entirely probable that he wouldntve used the nuclear device under denver unless he was doing a kamikaze

[terse moss]

But with the knowledge that you would send the missile if he didn’t

[agile matrix]

therefore, you doing that could be the catalyst for their nuclear device activation

[terse moss]

Also that

[thick slate]

the what?

[plucky juniper]

what?

i am not trying to send a missile to fucking denver

[agile matrix]

The What

[graceful warren]

I mean maybe the cultist shouldn't have looked so sus

[thick slate]

this is why youll never make it big

[terse moss]

The cultist broke the tablet because he can (presumably) put it back. You, the player, are killing him, and this risk breaking the tablet. He is breaking the tablet to kill you to stop you from killing all of them and then breaking it anyway so that he can put it back together after you are dead

[spare pier]

.

No it's more like killing the only person that presses the button to stop the apocalypse

My fucking wifi

[terse moss]

That’s why he doesn’t do it until you kill the cult members

[agile matrix]

i mean in your missile example do you know he has a warhead? and therefore did it so he didnt use the warhead for later?

[spare pier]

And like this conversation is getting annoying because it's literally just based off the current implementation which sucks

I'm not talking about that

I'm talking about how I want things to be

[terse moss]

Fair

[plucky juniper]

i dont think how you want things to be is desireable ngl

[agile matrix]

i mean most basises (how do you spell that) are based on what they've seen So

[terse moss]

We should make the lore that we beat him up because we want his mask, and everything else is completely an accident

[plucky juniper]

because you're trying to write something against the vanilla game

[spare pier]

I want the event to be at best an accident because the player tried to enact justice on someone who was doing something good, because it gives the player an interesting dynamic with their own actions

[terse moss]

It is essentially a different game tho

[agile matrix]

this is already so for a lot of things though

[plucky juniper]

you are trying to justify why the final boss of the base game, with all of his buildup, is somehow not your first big victory in a mod that includes significant post-moon lord content

[agile matrix]

am i misunderstanding or
cause we have had like

[spare pier]

And you missed the part where the Cultist's involvement is entirely irrelevant to this

[agile matrix]

multiple big victories

[spare pier]

[thick slate]

i kill the cultist cuz hes blue

[real glen]

Terrarian is you

[wanton pendant]

You would say that, blue person.

[brazen coral]

i kill the cultist because i want his ribs

[agile matrix]

WoF, Plantera probably, Cultist i'd say, Deus we managed to Purify

[spare pier]

The problem isn't whether or not this is your fault, it's the fact that killing the Moon Lord is a fairly meaningless gesture on the grand scheme of things

[thick slate]

im one of the good ones

[brazen coral]

i'm not

[wanton pendant]

You are a green.

[spare pier]

You're dealing with the disaster after it already passed

[brazen coral]

true!

most lizards are green yes

[spare pier]

That's not gonna resonate with a lot of people

[terse moss]

Oh I thought we just beat deus to death

[plucky juniper]

you cant convincingly convey that when its... the final boss of the base game

[wanton pendant]

Explain this, then.

[plucky juniper]

especially when you call the content after him "post-moon lord"

[brazen coral]

WHAT

[spare pier]

Yes you can?

[brazen coral]

Unbelievable

Not possible

Blue lizard???????????????????????

[real glen]

LOL???

[brazen coral]

I don't believe it

[terse moss]

The base game is irrelevant to calamity tho

[spare pier]

Because this isn't a matter about the Boss, it's a matter with the world as a whole

[plucky juniper]

you're writing for a mod of a video game

[wanton pendant]

Where the boss is not the final boss. So it being a final boss in the base game isn't the focus of its narrative meaning.

[agile matrix]

its a moral victory more than a war victory

we did not NEED to do that to save the world or whatever

[spare pier]

Infact, with how the world views the Moon Lord, it's really super meaningless. Destroying a symbol of fear that already rooted itself into the planet's culture so deeply isn't going to be met with applause and cheers, it will be met with hushed sighs and scared reassurances that it's finally over

[terse moss]

Calamity, in my opinion is more like a spinoff/au. the base game is fully irrelevant

[plucky juniper]

you can still convey that there's bigger threats than the final boss to justify post-final boss content, but you are trying to convince players that the final boss, who has a huge role even in this lore, who starts ups AN ENDING CREDITS SEQUENCE, is a meaningless victory

that

[terse moss]

Well it starting a credits sequence is getting changed I think

Don’t quote me on that

[spare pier]

I didn't even say it's a meaningless victory, I said It's a meaningless gesture

[agile matrix]

are you interpretting meaningless as "has no meaning for the player" or "has no meaning for the universe as a whole"

[spare pier]

For YOU THE PLAYER, yes it's a big deal

[plucky juniper]

i mean both to be honest

[spare pier]

For the world as a whole? Not really

Because that's just

[agile matrix]

for the player its very valuable, its the beginning of the end (where we go to Yharim and to Kill Him)
for the universe as a whole, we dug up a corpse and had a boxing match. thats cool i guess

[spare pier]

Not how the world works

[real glen]

I mean iirc tmodloader isnt supporting that yet, so really hard to change vanilla credit rn

[spare pier]

.

[agile matrix]

actually, im intrigued: would a similar effect occur with Yharim when we kill him?

[icy veldt]

Until I become an even greater symbol of fear

[spare pier]

Unless we entirely rewrote the Moon Lord to be an active threat that's imminently about to attack the planet, that's just how things are

[plucky juniper]

but he literally becomes one when LC... breaks... the seal

[agile matrix]

he's mostly outta commission and no one's really seen him in at least a lil bit; would a similar effect occur for Terraria as a whole when he dies?

[terse moss]

Well, even his corpse is pretty strong

He could terrorize a country

[wanton pendant]

And as stated, Moon Lord is a solved problem. It's no longer a threat to the world in its prison, and even if it were to escape it no longer has the power to destroy the world, and there are many who could deal with it single handedly. You haven't really done much except made a show of strength.

[spare pier]

Because of your fault

You did that, even if accidentally

If you hadn't messed with the Cultist, nothing would've happened

And even then, said threat is a shadow of what it once was

[thick slate]

seal.....

[terse moss]

SCal leaving her cave to sandblast some corpse before going home again

[plucky juniper]

took ya long enough

[real glen]

sealing my moonlorl
sealing my terminus

[plucky juniper]

okay fair enoug. in the context of the lore, it is meaningless. but it's an uphill battle to convey that to the player and convince them why

[raven brook]

I think the point isn't that it's meaningless, as much as it isn't a world-shaking event that will have implications globally on society as much as it is is meaningful to you

[spare pier]

I really don't think it is and I say again that it's not completely meaningless

[plucky juniper]

and the "hill" in question being like, yea

[spare pier]

It's hollow

[agile matrix]

i said this

[spare pier]

You killed something that was already dead

[agile matrix]

duop

[spare pier]

Something that people will still fear despite what you did, because it represents something much bigger than itself

[plucky juniper]

oh and also im annoyed about this because i dont think this is the right message to convey to the player

[wanton pendant]

Providence for instance is a much more notable victory because Providence is an active threat and has been for ages.

[spare pier]

The Moon Lord is an idea, a fear instilled onto the entire world that there are things lurking beyond they have no chance of fighting

And you cannot kill an idea

[plucky juniper]

attempting to claim to the player that beating the final boss of the (BASE) game, in the context of your mod's lore, is actually a meaningless and hollow victory, is probably not the right message to convey at all

it just makes you sound like a kid who claims their fan OCs are better than the source material

you have to do this sorta thing with a careful hand

[hollow pivot]

Is the idea not less scary if the origin is completely destroyed?

[spare pier]

I also think that you view this in a vacuum and don't understand how this improves the story. Not only does this make killing Yharim more urgent, it also makes this the player's lowest point in their journey, which is then directly followed with Providence and her defeat, which becomes the highest point of the player's journey because you've managed to bring about true, inarguable good to the world. This also makes Noxus in the future much more impactful, because you are proving the idea solidified by the Moon Lord wrong

[real glen]

moonlord is final boss of cal?

[agile matrix]

im not sure if you meant to phrase this so aggressively but this comes off rather harsh

[plucky juniper]

future bosses addon where full power ML is a thing for some reason

[agile matrix]

?

[raven brook]

Moonlord existing at all was how the idea began, not him being alive or not, becasue even if he were to be killed he introduced the concept of beings so overwhelmingly powerful that our chances of survival against them are abysmal

[spare pier]

I mean yeah I think you just completely misunderstand what I'm trying to convey and I think that if you're saying that I'm making the Moon Lord meaningless you're missing the point

[real glen]

???????

[spare pier]

The Moon Lord is not meaningless. Defeating it is, because infact the Moon Lord is so meaningful that even killing it changes nothing about how the world fears it

That's how deep the fear of the Moon Lord runs in Terraria

[raven brook]

Noxus would be a better way of actually disproving that because you are taking down a being of comparabler power and showing even in situations as dire as moon lord was there is still hope to fight back if we do things right

[hollow pivot]

Why does the Moon Lord dying make Providence become more cocky then?

[thick slate]

why doesnt the moon lord throw the moon at us

[plucky juniper]

do you know what causes a sigh of relief?

knowing that the source of a big fear is gone for good

[young socket]

im just reading this convo and oh my god this has been explained like 5 times by this point

😭

[wanton pendant]

Her Guardians want to kill you for being strong or something.

[wanton pendant]

Moon's Haunted.

[plucky juniper]

what am i missing

[hollow pivot]

Why do her minions like Scorn Eaters appear then?

[wanton pendant]

Is it truly 'the source' or just another nightmare.
The fact that one exists implies there may be more.

[raven brook]

The point is that ML isn't the "source" of the nigmate because the nigthmare isn't ML's existence,

[wanton pendant]

They get paid by the hour or something.

[raven brook]

It's what ML's existence and the disasters that followed after imply

[spare pier]

If all you can do is bring a sigh of relief, is that truly a great deed?

[hollow pivot]

Depends on who sighs ig

[raven brook]

The idea that there are things out there that we are utterly hopeless against and we can at most do our best to scrunch up a victory by a thread

[plucky juniper]

I didn't... imply... that all you get is a sigh of relief

[thick slate]

where is sun lord

[plucky juniper]

fucked off to nowhereland

[hollow pivot]

I think that's Xeroc.

[spare pier]

Well, the problem is that's all you're gonna get out of killing the Moon Lord

[plucky juniper]

laura is it a good idea to reduce beating the final boss of the base game to "your lowest point"

[thick slate]

killing moon lord should give me 10 dollars

[hollow pivot]

But killing Moon Lord gets Luminite and cool cat sword?

[long bloom]

kid named false epilogue

[spare pier]

You're just missing the entire fucking point of the narrative

😭

[wanton pendant]

It being the final boss of the base game doesn't really matter.

[spare pier]

And yes? Why is that bad?

[real glen]

Where is the Terrarian is you image

[spare pier]

The Moon Lord literally brings the player to their lowest point. That's how overwhelming that thing is

[thick slate]

terrarian isnt me

[plucky juniper]

it is bad when you reduce it to being a hollow victory

[long bloom]

why

[thick slate]

hollow like dark souls

speaking of dark souls

the final boss of that game is easy and hollow

[graceful warren]

Also is there a reason that one water guy is stuck in a clam

[hollow pivot]

Hollow Knight reference?

Amidias did an Indiana Jones when Ilimeris got burnt up but instead of using a fridge he used a big clam.

[spare pier]

I don't understand why the Moon Lord being Terraria's final boss automatically means that the fight has to be the most grand thing yet and that killing it has to be the highest point of your journey yet

[plucky juniper]

because its the final boss

[long bloom]

it's not

[graceful warren]

I mean i guess whatever works he survived

[spare pier]

Why does that matter?

[plucky juniper]

and defeating it... in the base game... is your highest point.

[long bloom]

yharim is

[wanton pendant]

It ate him.

[hollow pivot]

There's a different between “the most grand thing yet” and almost nothing.

[long bloom]

we're not in the base game

[wanton pendant]

It's not.

[long bloom]

we're in calamity

[spare pier]

And I didn't say that?

[wanton pendant]

So?

[graceful warren]

I keep on forgetting how many societies Yharim destroyed

[spare pier]

And why do we have to do that in Calamity?

[wanton pendant]

Most of them.

[spare pier]

Why can't we turn things around and make so the Moon Lord actually causes your lowest point?

[long bloom]

being the same as vanilla is boring

[plucky juniper]

what is the purpose of doing that?

[spare pier]

I'm not saying I want the Moon Lord fight to be you shooting a disabled child on a wheelchair, infact I want the opposite. I want the fight to show just how horrifying this thing is, because if this is how it's moving while torn in half, Jesus fucking Christ how was it killed before?

But I want the Moon Lord to also have the last laugh.

[wanton pendant]

What is the purpose of anything in a story?

[spare pier]

Because killing it, in the end, changes nothing.

[thick slate]

narrative

[real glen]

Laura' current expression might be literally Ishmael in her pfp

[thick slate]

man people are stupid

[plucky juniper]

no like, im saying, what is the purpose of changing the highest point of a story and adapting it to instead be your lowest

[wanton pendant]

BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFERENT STORY!

THERE IS LITERALLY NO REASON FOR IT TO BE THE SAME!

[plucky juniper]

yeah fair enough

honestly i feel the same as ya'll

[plucky juniper]

we're both brick walls trying to get through the other

see why i didnt want to continue this argument

[wanton pendant]

It's your argument.

[spare pier]

The Moon Lord is an idea. A fear instilled on the entire world, that everyone around the globe is terrorized of. When could the next invasion happen? How strong could it be? Could we even survive it this? Just what the fuck else is hiding out there?

The Moon Lord being killed does not make this fear go away. If anything, it makes it stronger, because you have shown just how powerful it was despite being sealed on the moon for 850 years.

The Moon Lord is the point of the player's journey where they notice just how little they have changed the world. Despite all this power, all these journeys, all of the blood sweat and tears you've dropped, you are still so far from actually being able to actually bring change.

But will you give up? Will you let this set you back to the beggining? Will this stop you from seeking to bring change to the world?

[thick slate]

im kinda like moon lord

[wanton pendant]

YOU DON'T HAVE LEGS!?

[graceful warren]

Honestly i agree moonlord should be stronger.

[plucky juniper]

@thick slate legless pnuk

[thick slate]

no i sit on my computer all day smh

[wanton pendant]

Same thing.

[plucky juniper]

ya might as well be legless

[thick slate]

havent used my legs in 5 years

[plucky juniper]

jeez they continue to prove this

[graceful warren]

Like it took a dragons that are basically gods to take him down and seal him. So i get him being nerf from the fight but like come on

[wanton pendant]

You're fighting what is basically a corpse.

[thick slate]

personally i stop my runs at moon lord

[wanton pendant]

And it's still stronger than almost everything.

[spare pier]

I think that if you are cut in half, have your brain exposed and spend 850 years doing nothing, and you're still stronger than 99% of the entire world

You're kinda strong

[thick slate]

why dont we go for the brain

[spare pier]

Ask Red

[thick slate]

what moonlord doing if i fly into his brain

ill larp as a brain worm

[plucky juniper]

he retained his power enough to nearly finish what he started, and i still overcame it. i completed this story, something that not even the auric dragons couldnt,
there is still much more to do, before i can hope to stand against the godseeker. but i am getting there.

[wanton pendant]

And the idea survives.

[upper warren]

I have two questions for you if you don’t mind to answer

[spare pier]

Shoot

[upper warren]

If Yharim ate a tainted cloudberry (elder berry) right before dying of old age, would he be ok/live long enough to see yharon again?

Second question, what does a god transformation look like? Did providences human form start rapidly evolving into what she is now or something? I just don’t know what it would look like.

[wanton pendant]

We don't know what the process looks like, but we do know what influences the result to a degree.

[thick slate]

didnt slime god become more and more gloopy

[wanton pendant]

'When a God ascends, over a period of time, their appearance tends to change. This transformation correlates to how much one lets their newfound powers shape who they are, growing more distant from their original form the further they stray from who they used to be.'
This is how the lore doc phrases it.

[plucky juniper]

interesting

[graceful warren]

So that why ravanger looks the way they do. They let there power fully control them

[wanton pendant]

No.

[plucky juniper]

i mean they're also a resurrected god

[wanton pendant]

Ravager is a zombie.

[plucky juniper]

i mean hang on

REFER TO THE COSMATICMANGO CONCEPT ART

[graceful warren]

So more like slime god than

[wanton pendant]

This is what he actually looked like.

[thick slate]

aura

[plucky juniper]

The ORIGINAL god that was resurrected into ravager

[wanton pendant]

Yeah Slime God is the example of 'completely changed'.

[thick slate]

yea i would slime this guy too

he has too much aura

[graceful warren]

Oh gotcha

Yeah I mean bro is damn slime

[upper warren]

Have they not gone into detail because of spoilers or because they just haven’t gotten into it themselves? (I assume I’m not the first to ask)

[wanton pendant]

Not to say he was unchanged at all, but that was probably due to the organ donations.

[wanton pendant]

Probably both.

[plucky juniper]

heres cosmatic's ravager redesign

[wanton pendant]

Don't do Necromancy, kids.

[plucky juniper]

fun fact: this is also the only time a godly soul's domain was changed after being changed from their auric soul

iirc it went from Sacrifice (agnus) to Blood (ravager)

[thick slate]

hes even cooler

[long scaffold]

Do we have a design for the fire dragon?

[thick slate]

like a dragon but

on fire

[wanton pendant]

No.

And it was Flame.

[thick slate]

like a dragon?

[wanton pendant]

Probably European.

[thick slate]

dnd dragon.png

[plucky juniper]

also that design is alr outdated because cos did the ravager first, agnus second, so they went back and redid ravager's horns

yknow what there wasnt a point in my argument earlier

[graceful warren]

Honestly I kinda like to think that before the ravanger went completely insane with the death dragon power he lead a cult

I mean everything is kinda pointing to that

[plucky juniper]

especially when laura was saying that she wanted moon lord to be so terrifyingly powerful even in his reduced state

she didnt want the fight against moon lord isnt a meaningless fight, she wanted it to be a pyrrhic victory that shakes you to your core

[thick slate]

have u read the lore at all my goat

[graceful warren]

No not really

[thick slate]

he didnt go insane his ass was killed

[graceful warren]

I mean i watched a video on it but they didn't go to into detail about him

[plucky juniper]

cosmatic actually wrote down a lot of details about pre-death ravager

[thick slate]

and then his followers sacrificed themself

[graceful warren]

Oh but his corpse keep on moving

[thick slate]

and he came back evil mode

[plucky juniper]

gonna go forward their stuff

[hollow pivot]

Ravager used to be a very humanoid god called Agnus who got killed by Yharim and then turned into the Ravager which was killed by Yharim and somehow rebuilt and then killed by the Terrarian.

[plucky juniper]

@graceful warren

[graceful warren]

So bro died three time damn

[wanton pendant]

He did.

And becoming a god didn't make him insane.

[thick slate]

ur insane ur in pain i can tell by what ur saying