suggestions-discussion

[keen zealot]

while I will not make a formal suggestion for this I'd like to see a toggle (defaulted off) to completely remove the wall climb from all variants of the accessory because it sucks to have an entire accessory line ruined by one small and incredibly annoying extra ability that isn't even the main focus for the line

[dim star]

Suggest it then

Maybe it would work exactly like the shields

If the visibility is toggled off then you don’t get any wall climb

[eternal escarp]

that is no longer the case

theres a seperate item to disable dashes

[crude geode]

^

[eternal escarp]

also, MNG starts from the claws
id say they are a big part of MNG

[crude geode]

It’d be like if ankh shield didn’t disable knockback even though the origin of it is the cobalt shield

[eternal escarp]

ye

[ripe owl]

i know i am late

One day Fabsol will probably say "Fuck it. You want enemies? Here're your enemies!"

[hollow shell]

(Already kinda did, next major updates after this one will have an enemy focus)

[ripe owl]

Cool

I guess

[tardy smelt]

thought it was exploration focus after this one

[hollow shell]

It is both.
(enemies are what you fight while exploring)

[grim tusk]

Iirc it was gonna be astral, brimstone crags and possibly other biomes

Jungle and sulphur sea perhaps

[dapper coral]

structurally, this sugg is valid

i just don't like its premise at all

[barren lintel]

for what reason, may I inquire?

[dapper coral]

as you say, frog leg is such an important accessory for prehm and most of hm
i feel like you really should work for it a little bit as a result
it can already be fished with a little patience (especially considering calamity's additions to fishing), i feel like 10 frogs is an okay alternative if you don't like fishing. reducing that would make it way too easy to have a broken movement setup, i think

[tiny valve]

honestly Frog Leg is still very viable Post ML as well, so I think 10 frogs works well for an accessory that can last you that long

[barren lintel]

my reasoning is, from my experience playing with friends, because of the rng behind getting it, as you either need to fish it up or get lucky with enough frog spawns, most of the time they just don't get it, and as a result struggle heavily with bosses when having frog leg could just solve what they're struggling with. By changing the recipe, it'll hopefully make it less rng heavy, while still requiring at least some effort put in to acquire

[dapper coral]

i'll be perfectly honest with you, it's not hard to fish frog leg at the ocean if you put in a little time
i understand that mp makes frog-catching a little more painful since, yknow, frogs, but fishing is renewable and not changed based on mp or sp

[hollow shell]

Indeed
Good Calamity fishing rods are craftable at any time, and the Merchant sells bait (Journeyman after Skele, Master after Plant)

Plus all the fishing stuff that DS and AS drop

[barren lintel]

I guess, but from my experience, it's hard to convince someone to just sit down and do a frankly incredibly boring activity just to get an accessory, albeit an important accessory, when they could be doing literally anything else

[ashen warren]

so you want to make getting frog leg easier to get because it's too subjectively too boring to get?

[hollow shell]

I mean yeah that's kinda fair

[fossil finch]

sub's problem relies mostly on having 90 copies because multiplayer funny

[hollow shell]

I tend to be the one who fishes because I don't mind

[whole sedge]

Yeah really this seems more like a multiplayer issue to me because well multiplayer exists as I've never struggled to get Frog Leg in any capacity solo
Really lowering the cost would just make it even more powerful because of how easy it'd be to get also, having at least some work to get a decent accessory that can last literally the entire game should be required

[barren lintel]

from how I see it, frog leg is a comparable accessory to like SoC, because they are both early game accessories that last well into hardmode, and can even be serviceable into post moon lord, but, they both have alternates that outpace them (HotE and asguardian aegis, etc), except for the fact that SoC is easily gotten, and frog leg is bleugh

[fossil finch]

tbh i'd argue on that the fact that frog leg isn't as required as a dash like soc is, but is, however, better.

[whole sedge]

Really I kinda feel like neither are required just very nice to have especially as I've only done one playthrough with Frog Leg used at all mainly because I forgot about it, plus fishing relatively early at the point where you'd be getting Frog Leg is already something that can benefit the player a decent bit

[sand umbra]

Frog Leg is incredibly easy to get in the context of Calamity

especially because Calamity hands you everything you need for top-tier earlygame fishin' on a silver platter

and I know you're gonna say "but fishing is dumb and stupid and bad" and to that I say:

nobody cares, frankly, and more importantly, nobody's going to cater to you not wantin' to utilize a game mechanic that there is content mostly exclusive to

you are welcome to not indulge in certain aspects of the game if you don't like them

but don't act surprised when it makes it harder to gather stuff that would help you significantly at the point you can get it

[whole sedge]

Yeah, frankly fishing and gardening feel kind of underutilized in calamity in replacement for the "Boss Rush-y" nature but if you don't want to fish or use the mechanic in place to get good items you probably shouldn't just have them given to you on a silver platter

[eternal escarp]

(also, isnt frog leg no longer as inportant as it currently in the next update?)

[fossil finch]

yes

[sand umbra]

Calamity makes fishin' as easy and stress-free as humanly possible by handin' you everything you need for fishin' from the easiest boss in the game

[eternal escarp]

(lowers the importance and the huge need for it, so ig thats something worth to keep in mind)

[sand umbra]

if you still don't wanna interact with fishin' past that point even after bein' given literally everything you need, then to be blunt?

that's a "you" problem, not a Calamity problem. and last I checked, suggs ain't really designed to solve "you" problems.

[barren lintel]

alright, if you feel as if the suggestion is redundant, feel free to remove it

[keen zealot]

the least important and least useful part of the trio of effects, but sure

[barren lintel]

However, I disagree with the argument. What you’re essentially saying is that, using another game for an analogy, let’s say I wanted to get a dust rock blues in destiny, so that I could have a good shotgun for pvp. The quickest and easiest way to get a DRB is to farm a lost sector over and over, an activity that is incredibly boring, to most people. Now, you could just use a random shotgun and permanently be objectively worse than others who have a DRB, or you could just grind it out. This isn’t not wanting to indulge in certain aspects of the game if you don't like them, it’s just bad game design, simple as that. There should be other alternatives to getting an item you want. And FYI, I did grind for that dust rock I have no problem with fishing. I even spent hours grinding in vanilla for a crystal serpent, just because I thought it looked cool. But that doesn’t change my desire for an alternate, less rng heavy method of getting an item.

[eternal escarp]

tbf, i find great use of the feature when i did use MNG, so i do not see how they arent usefull tbh

[keen zealot]

they're really annoying to me at least

[eternal escarp]

especially when i mostly use shield dashes

[keen zealot]

always sticking to walls all the time when I go near them

[fossil finch]

that's a you thing honestly
If you don't want it use the other provided line of dashes, ig

[eternal escarp]

^

or just, avoid sticking to a wall

[keen zealot]

which is why I didn't formally suggest it

[whole sedge]

If you want an alernate, less rng heavy method then you've got the frog recipe also really which solves this exact purpose. Frog spawns are significantly less RNG and are way easier to farm out especially as it's only 10 of them.

[fossil finch]

so true

[eternal escarp]

also tbf, if an accessory is really good id say it should be somewhat hard to acquire

granted it isnt 100% necessary

(which it isnt)

[whole sedge]

That too, frog leg's considered one of the best accessories in the game due to it being pre-boss and being usable literally up to Yharon and Scal likely but again it's not necessary to play the game which is why if you want a really good early game upgrade you can fish for it or just go grab 10 frogs when you see 'em.

[fossil finch]

also, sub's whole point can be negated by a single phrase:
Grinding is part of game design, isn't for everyone, and that doesn't mean it is bad game design

[keen zealot]

and to add on to this, shiny red balloon is basically the same kind of effect

[eternal escarp]

not exactly for the fact balloon is wayyyyy less then frog leg

and the fact balloon combines with accesories while frog (currently) doesnt
(moab doesnt count since its basically its own thing (and is a lesser frog leg))

[whole sedge]

Rarity's probably one of the biggest ways to balance a decently powerful early game item especially if, like in Frog Leg's case, it becomes easier to get the later in the game you are which is very true for Frog Leg for the sole reason of the more you progress the better fishing gear you can get and easier

[fossil finch]

statis belt: mmye it's also lesser, even with the buff next update

[barren lintel]

This isn't what I'm arguing, what I'm arguing is that there should be ALTERNATIVE methods of grinding, that aren't so rng reliant. You can go hours without finding frogs, or hours without fishing a frog leg up, but you cannot go hours without finding the materials necessary to craft a red balloon

[whole sedge]

The chances of going hours without finding frogs or a frog leg is incredibly low though especially if you use the best gear for the job that calamity provides.

Frog leg also still isn't, and still shouldn't, be a necessary accessory so if you go those hours upon hours without finding anything there's really nothing stopping you from going through the game just fine

[hollow shell]

Oh boy

[fossil finch]

ah yes

the thing that was removed because you know

people

suggested it away

yes this isn't really getting through

[hollow shell]

@scenic pine Question
Why do you prefer the ninja dashes over the Asgard dash?

[scenic pine]

Because the dash distance and speed with the ninja is overall better, and sometimes the asgard dash doesn't work with stuff

[hollow shell]

((this isn't the main issue with the sugg but I want to ask anyway))

ah

[fossil finch]

aren't dash prioritised by slot or is that a vanilla thing that modded accs don't get

[hollow shell]

Ah yes I see

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/350387256583782400/778068528023732234/DashPrelude.png

[fossil finch]

fair enough imo because it's a ram

[hollow shell]

Yes, Neko
https://terraria.fandom.com/wiki/Shield_of_Cthulhu

Vanilla thing

[fossil finch]

uh, then
you think you could do the same for calamity accs?

[hollow shell]

It would be better, Nightmare, to suggest that this kind of priority system be added for modded accessories too

Because we put some time and effort into making it so dashes aren't tied to accessory visibility

[fossil finch]

it'd solve this issue once and for all

[scenic pine]

And having the asgard and statis ninja both equipped reduces the distance and speed of your dash overall

[bright crag]

I don't think visibility is the way to toggle it

People care about vanity

And toggling shield dashes with visibility was removed

[crude geode]

@scenic pine ^

See above

Generally speaking, having a giant unchangeable shield in front of your character was pretty annoying for vanity.

[runic helm]

weaponout shield is good to hide it

[crude geode]

The usability of an item shouldn’t be tied to vanity. Without the dash you would be so much less powerful, and it’s annoying to be forced to have this vanity on you.

[sand umbra]

the last time we had visibility toggles it led to havin' to ruin your appearance just to have a good dash for the second half of the game

[fossil finch]

And the people storming in to suggest it to cease existing

So yeah not again

[sand umbra]

now, I can't speak for any of the actual devs, but personally I'd rather not go back to havin' to do that, thank you very much

[scenic pine]

Well then I guess I cant have both ninja belt, and asgard valor :/

[ashen warren]

i think there is a mod that lets you select which dash is being used

[grim tusk]

question is there an item that prevents armored diggers from spawning?

[sand umbra]

no

[grim tusk]

also i think i may not do a long video for my providence sugg, its been proven quite tedious

[sand umbra]

and they're not a particularly important enemy so I don't see a reason for there to be

[keen zealot]

accessory order matters, try swapping these two accessories with eachother

if you were thinking their effects would merge, euhhh that's not a thing

[safe oasis]

@earnest raptor only problem i see here is the meld construct proposal being a little too specific, otherwise good sugg with good reasoning, a dev will have to say if it falls under “too much effort for a sugg” though

[gray nebula]

??? no

terrible logic being put to use

[cobalt pewter]

Hell ye

Another sugg of the funny material

[gray nebula]

green energy = this looks like draedon arsenal electricity = make it obtainable there????

[distant gyro]

it sounds like a 2012 illuminati confirmed conspiracy theory

[gray nebula]

meld is a dark god remains set why the fuck would it be arsenal related (or abyss related

[distant gyro]

green therefore plasma therefore draedon, ah yes

[gray nebula]

[earnest raptor]

At least, dark god leads to darkness.

What is a logic behind meld being dropped by celestial fuckers then?

[scenic dragon]

plus Empyrean implies a relation to the sky

[gray nebula]

so true!!!!! and also still in credibly invalid

[scenic dragon]

so it can't really work as an abyss drop

[hollow shell]

This is a..... weird suggestion

[gray nebula]

meld is dropped by celestial guys because tiering and we haven't implemented anything better yett

but like, it's not because it's a dark god set that now it's connected to all and any dark places

[earnest raptor]

Ok, let me see.

[hollow shell]

"Meld Constructs can also be used for a consumable item that erases pillars and summons Moon Lord without them. "
This is also completely unrelated to the rest of the sugg

[earnest raptor]

Done, rewritten.

[hollow shell]

Still a bit weak
You get to revisit space soon after that point when Exodium spawns (and SW later)

And I'm still kinda irked by the non-Pillar ML spawner concept for rogues only
but I guess it does tie in with the sugg overall
The idea of trying to make rogue do something entirely separate from Pillars

[earnest raptor]

Wait a second.

The only recipe that doesn't involve both only post-ML materials and Exodium is Normality Relocator.

[hollow shell]

This is true

And Eldritch Soul Artifact

[earnest raptor]

Phantoplasm is post-ML

Anyway, what if Exodium Clusters were generated after funni cultist?

And used for Meld Constructs instead of, well, Meld Blobs?

[hollow shell]

mmmmaybe

Prolly not instead of

[earnest raptor]

Done.

[gray nebula]

I feel like you may want to make the relation of rogues wouldn't have any reason to do the pillar events = give them a way to ignore it, more clear since it can feel like a random suggestion thrown in as well on the first read

also given celestial fragments are used in a lot of recipes that aren't class restricted (galaxtica singularigies and friends) that might be kind of a bad idea

[hollow shell]

tbf
Deus drops fragments

[cobalt pewter]

My stance on Meld is that Rogue shouldn't really rely on it to make post-ML stuff like Empyrean armor

[hollow shell]

Say again?

[frozen hornet]

That means pre-ML normality relocator

[hollow shell]

.

(and add something to Normality Relocator to make it post-ML again)

[frozen hornet]

mmh missed that

[cobalt pewter]

Oh sorry, just read this, basically Meld is in this weird limbo between catering to rogue (Empyrean armor and technically Exodus Wings) and trying to be an all class option at the same time

[keen zealot]

Is it a problem that Meld is used for Rogue armour and wings and a weapon or two for every class?

the same thing happens with unholy cores

I'm sure there are other parallels that I just can't recall at the moment

and no doubt the changes to the helmets of some of the sets next update will cause this situation for more materials

[eternal escarp]

unholy cores arent exactly class specific so those never felt wrong

meld blobs are mostly seen as rogue's fragment

but then agian, calamity uses other fragments for some out-of-the-class weapons

like Solar Fragments of Helium Flash iirc

so i personally dont see any problem with Meld Blobs or Meld Constructs

[clever canopy]

Tbh I think this suggestion suffers from being too specific

If the suggestion was much more broad about making meld constructs tied to the astral biome and allowing rogues to avoid the pillars it’d be more likely to get through

Generally smaller suggestions do better and this ones long

[fossil finch]

Allowing rogues to totally avoid the pillars looks like a bad idea imo

It's unfair (imo)

Exodium retier part is just kind of out of the blue and wouldn't really accomplish anything, and if pillars are a problem, fix pillars, don't just make a single class able to skip it because yes lol (and guess what)

[dense tinsel]

Ret projectiles nead to pass throw walls

Because you can cheaz him if he is alone

Just enter a house

And blam

He cant hurt you

So plz fix this

[still zodiac]

I mean you're intentionally cheesing it that way

Its The same thing as with ML's deathray

[old phoenix]

what do you guys think about adding Xeroc as a boss? go to draedon's lab to find info about him, go to the eidolon cultists to find a way to resurrect him and kill him again, add some gear to fill in the gaps, not required for progression

[sleek turret]

uhh

Xeroc is going to be added in the future eventually.

[old phoenix]

seeing he's already dead canonically a quick resurrection and kill shouldnt change much

I also wish they kept the empyrean armor as xeroc armor, like what does empyrean even mean?

em·py·re·an
relating to heaven or the sky.
yeah that doesnt make sense, its made of meld blobs that look to be shadow/void related.

[sleek turret]

maybe the meld blobs are related to a cosmic material or a heavenly one

[old phoenix]

lol everything's cosmic now, even the deepest ocean is related to the eidolon cultists, lunar and moon lord

idk it's ok, its better than what terraria has as far as lore goes if it has any as it is

[frail mantle]

xeroc is most definitely not dead

in fact he's planned to be a post-Yharim superboss

[fossil finch]

me omw to actually delete total calamity so this never happens again

[frail mantle]

also considering he's the most powerful being in the calamity universe, an armor set being available right after ML that was supposedly made out of bits of him didn't make sense

[crude geode]

This suggestion irks me. Just let one class skip over an entire event instead of properly fixing the event and giving the class something to do during it? Kinda weird.

[fossil finch]

fab's changes already make pillars a lot better to bear

and, that is exactly what i think of this sugg

[crude geode]

supposedly
Meld Constructs are always fucking weird but making them connected to Exodium Clusters feels even more weird

[fossil finch]

meld's at least connected enough to eldritch shit

[crude geode]

They’re already used as a material in their own unique set of gear so I don’t see the purpose in shoving exodium around just to fix meld’s identity crisis

[whole sedge]

The most connection I kinda see to them is black and space i guess?
Other than that this feels kinda weird especially just giving one specific class a free "fuck this event" pass

[fossil finch]

yeah

[crude geode]

@earnest raptor See above convo

[fossil finch]

(to be clear: blobs drop from shit that is sealing an eldritch like dark god, and to refine it, you need dust from the leftover of the thing made out of dark god corpses)

[crude geode]

Also this is partially about a dono item so it might need permission

[whole sedge]

Really the part about a use for Meld Constructs to skip the Pillars event seems kind of off to me also as the rest of the suggestion is about making Meld Constructs having more identity or logic behind them being created

[eternal escarp]

likely talked about but didnt see

What that does that accomplish:
Rogue characters get an alternative unique way of finishing Hardmode without touching the atrocious thing that are Pillars and also get to visit Space once more.
why is this needed to be accomplished agian? it doesnt exactly seem to mean anything to the meld blobs, just about rogue class skipping pillars

which, like stated above methinks

doesnt solve the problem of meld blobs identity issues

[fossil finch]

can someone make a lesson on basic game design for suggesters

[whole sedge]

maybe a section dedicated to how to improve your suggestion to fit more with calamity should be added to don'ts
Having rogue finish hardmode uniqueley kind of doesn't fit at all in my eyes also specifically because none of the other classes, unless they specifically go out of their way to get that Rogue/Class "exclusive" item and potentially just gimp themselves in the process, don't get that same treatment of a "Free Anti-Pillar Card" pretty much

[fossil finch]

meld also makes some important weps for other classes

[eternal escarp]

and so does exodium later on iirc

which, also mentioned above iirc

has no real reason as to why it should be added to meld stuff

[meager tangle]

Also, why would they generate like crystal shards? Those suck to collect

[fossil finch]

Ehhh yeah no?

[hollow shell]

I thought something like this was going to happen?
Or got brought up at some point?
Lemme try and find something

[dapper coral]

check the pins in #other-mod-talk iirc

[hollow shell]

yeeeeah there

[dapper coral]

big list

@meager tangle

[hollow shell]

I checked #help-advice-read-pins . _.

[grim tusk]

At least it wasnt #calamity-mod-talk

@meager tangle #help-advice-read-pins message heres a list i made quite some time ago due to how often people ask there

[meager tangle]

Not everyone that plays calamity is in the discord

[whole sedge]

Then that's on them..?

[grim tusk]

^

[hollow shell]

Where do you think the list should be?

On the wiki? Cuz that is not happening.

[whole sedge]

To even play calamity you usually have to have access to the mod browser which you can actually find a ton of good QoL mods on also

[eternal escarp]

my question is

why should calamity be in charge of this?

i dont think at that the mod must give you a lit of other unrelated mods

the fact it already does this is good, yes

but it never had to, i dont think

[whole sedge]

Another thing also is that lists like this already are plentiful not only in player-created mod lists and suggestions but literally in pins on this exact discord which is where pretty much all calamity related stuff is

[grim tusk]

Also alch npc lite is kinda cheaty (potion combinations and its own potions which break balance and progression)

Not so much a QoL mod due to how much shit it adds

[whole sedge]

at least it's not full Kind of agree but mod choice is semi-irrelevant in this

[meager tangle]

That was just an example, but also potion combinations just save space

[hollow shell]

I ask this again

cuz such a list is pinned in #other-mod-talk

[meager tangle]

Ok fair

[clever canopy]

I haven’t seen the suggestion but I also wanna point out the many YouTube videos detailing QoL mods

[shadow knoll]

meld should just be reworked into a fragment tbh

like the other lunar fragments

It might be easier said than done

but it's the only way to truly fix it's identity crisis

it's connected to other classes, and it can still retain it's original dark and eldritch identity if the blob was made to be like, an eldritch fragment for example.

[whole sedge]

Only issue with that is well... pillar bad

[shadow knoll]

ye but with fab pillar rework it can be applied to new pillar

and just have the pillar be in one of the oceans

or in space?

or hell underground in underworld

[eternal escarp]

sounds

completely unneeded tbf

[shadow knoll]

ig ye, but it's the only way meld would really connect to other lunar classes

[whole sedge]

Really out of the way also if it's not just like on the overworld like everything else

[eternal escarp]

making a new pillar might make it look better, but then agian
-meld constructs makes a lot of diff stuff that isnt rogue
-do we need another pillar with effects enemies or what not
-theres legit no more space for pillars to fit on the surface, and they cant be underground iirc

[shadow knoll]

the stuff that isn't rouge can be reworked to actually fit their class

[hollow shell]

Meld's item-armor discrepancy situation is also not unheard of for Terraria
Like, looking at Hellstone Bars
Pure melee armor, but it makes melee weps and ranged weps and a summon wep

[eternal escarp]

and like stated before this sugg in posting doesnt really give any real fix to the meld constructs, its more of a "let this class skip the pillars"

[shadow knoll]

i too disagree with the suggs

that's why i brought my idea

[eternal escarp]

also yeah that is very true

never thought of it but its completely correct lol

[shadow knoll]

Meld is just really weirdly handled

[eternal escarp]

ive never seen any wierd handeling to it myself

its used for rogue post ML armor, but like hellstone, it makes weapons for mostly everything

i just dont see any real reason in the sugg currently in posting

especially when the "accomplishing" doesnt really relate to the meld constructs practically at all

[shadow knoll]

i mean it's supposed to be a lunar fragment equivalent, but it's used for a whole bunch of stuff. None of the other lunar fragments do that. Hellstone is the exception, it's the flagship ore for the underworld, it has to be used for all classes

[eternal escarp]

it gives other outcomes that are somewhat fine (the latter one) but it is pretty much just giving a very out of the way solution to something that doesnt actually need a real fix imo

[eternal escarp]

some do actually

Solar Fragments are using in Helium Flash

[shadow knoll]

well ok ig

[eternal escarp]

and some other stuff i forget, byes

(and you can count Galactica Singularities if you wish..? idk)

[hollow shell]

On the contrary, in Calamity the fragments aren't dedicated to their classes either
Luminous Striker is a rogue wep that uses Meld Constructs and Stardust Fragments
Lazhar is a magic wep that uses Solar Fragments

yeah

[eternal escarp]

yeah, those are other examples

[hollow shell]

Nano Purge and Swarmer, magic weps that use Vortex

[eternal escarp]

they are class themed, ig? but not as much in calamity

[hollow shell]

Stellar Contempt, melee/rogue wep, uses Solar and Nebula Fragments

[eternal escarp]

could argue vortex is used for gun related weapons, but thats the only connection to its original "class dedication" it had in vanilla iirc

[whole sedge]

Kinda feel like this sugg could heavily relate to being a PML Balance sugg also cause empyrean and fragment armors being pml armors but either way kinda feels off as none of what's listed feel like fixing Meld's identity crisis much

[hollow shell]

No I do not think this has anything to do with the rebalance

[eternal escarp]

my only issue is that the sugg is just inserting random stuff that in the end contribute mostly nothing to the issue it presents

To make Pillars skippable, Meld Constructs then could also be used for a consumable item that erases pillars and summons Moon Lord without them.

for one

Make Exodium Clusters (another cosmic material) spawn after Cultist (and add something to Normality Relocator to make it post-ML again) and add them to Meld Construct recipe.
and this

[hollow shell]

Ah yes, those two things.

[eternal escarp]

ig the second one makes it disconnected from the pillars, but dont exactly see what exodium clusters relate to in this

oh i posted the same thing?

woops

there

[whole sedge]

Yeah main issues are still that, the thought of just skipping a pretty major event for pretty much only one class seems fucked to me and the latter only really being connected from what I see of color and I guess slightly related to space and moonlord?

[hollow shell]

mm, this suggestion has been quite controversial/turbulent

[hollow shell]

@earnest raptor Sugg got brought up again, from here onward

[sand umbra]

I mean, both vanilla and Calamity do this with a sizable number of notable materials each, and I think it's a good thing that it's done that way

because that way you at least have a reason to check out all the content in the game, regardless of what you're doin'

[dim star]

I’m fine with the sugg except for the the skip-able pillars

[fossil finch]

yeah this is true

[crude geode]

Should the latest sugg be exclaimed, considering the reasoning is kinda lacking and there have been a lot of complaints brought up that haven’t been addressed?

[clever canopy]

I don’t think the reasoning behind the suggestion is bad but the solution proposed is too much

Most people would probably agree that meld blobs are a bit out of place but this suggestion goes way beyond that

I’d be more in favour of meld dropping from astral enemies post-deus if anything

Or from deus itself, replacing the fragment drops

[cobalt pewter]

They still have the vanilla's relations to pillars and the dedicated classes, so I don't really mind them being used for other things

Issue is that Rogue doesn't have that "dedicated" thing, and Meld is always referred to as devs as an all class material

So what's Rogue's thing?

[hollow shell]

Meld.

[cobalt pewter]

[hollow shell]

It makes their lunar armor

Gives em two themed weps, just like fragments, plus a (great) accessory and an upgrade wep

[ashen warren]

also wings

[hollow shell]

Ye the wings boost rogue stats when worn with the armor too

[ashen warren]

if you can make magic guns out of vortex frags then you should be able to make a magic bow out of meld blobs.

[earnest raptor]

Removed the proposal.

Now what?

[earnest raptor]

I was sleeping

[hollow shell]

@tired heart Wrong channel

[tired heart]

[novel belfry]

also its a meme

unfortunately memes are banned in this server

[hollow shell]

It is just an emote and not a big ole image but yeah don't do that if it was in fact intentional

Anyway
This suggestion seems fine now

General enough to lack any
potential controversy

[earnest raptor]

I didn't knew than #suggestions-voting is Twitter.

[hollow shell]

Can you get ratio'd when there's only one available reaction?

[earnest raptor]

you can be canceled from suggestions tho

[hollow shell]

@small tusk You can remove that disclaimer, afaik Luxor is not getting changed in a significant way next update, just some numeric balancing

[small tusk]

ah ok thanks for the info

[hollow shell]

(and also, the bot automatically detects the topmost line as your sugg's "title", so that'd show up really awkwardly as-is)

[small tusk]

just a lot of changelogs wanted to check

oh ok sry lol

[hollow shell]

I don't think it was put in changelogs. Like most balance changes, it wasn't significant enough to mention

[small tusk]

oh ok

[hollow shell]

I do think your suggestion's title could focus more on summoner

As that's the only point of concern you bring up in the rest of the suggestion

[small tusk]

ight lemme fix the post a bit

[hollow shell]

🤔 What classes other than summoner have a lackluster effect?

[small tusk]

hmmm

[hollow shell]

Ah there

[small tusk]

yeah that seems better lol

[hollow shell]

Didn't realize you were still editing

[small tusk]

yeah lmao

[hollow shell]

This definitely looks better 👍

[small tusk]

ight nice

honestly now I'm tryna think of how this should work

something that doesn't take forever to make but still does such an interesting class justice

[hollow shell]

It probably won't work like how you seem to imply it should work
As in, taking the minion's speed and projectile count and behavior into account
cuz that would be very difficult to execute

[small tusk]

yeah

hmmm, interesting idea, but maybe instead of summoning a summon, it gives the minions a mini luxors gift, scales with slots, and can just be executed on a minions attack

[eternal escarp]

i like the sugg, but whats the last line for

[hollow shell]

Problem with "executed on a minions attack" is that some minions don't have attacks, just contact damage

[small tusk]

mmmmmm, right

[hollow shell]

We'll think of something. Maybe.

The important thing is the sugg describes the problem that needs solving.

[small tusk]

yep lol

i just like to brainstorm

idea idk how plausible this is, but is it possible to take every 3rd summon after the first, and mimic its ai onto luxor's gift summon?

[keen zealot]

could have a lot of issues if you desummon or if that third slot is your last and you keep replacing it with other minions

and checking if the minion is still the same every frame is really inefficient

[scenic compass]

check it every time you use the minion staff thing maybe?

[cosmic abyss]

Alternative summoner luxor gift buff idea:
Maybe make the summoner luxor gift effect passively active when you are holding a minion staff?

[keen zealot]

It's active when you have a summon summoned, all the time

that's not the problem

honestly luxor's gift doesn't have to be good for summoner

while it does suck to find it if it sucks, it would also be really lame if you feel the need to go after it every time

[clever canopy]

Could make it so that you get as many Luxor’s gift summons as you have minions, but they have less damage

[buoyant hearth]

I've always wondered why there's no crawlers for the thorium gems.

incase anyone does calamithroium

[ashen warren]

because cal shouldn't have to cater to thorium players.

or add thorium support in any way

[buoyant hearth]

yeah ok

[ashen warren]

crawlers for thorium gems sound like something from a fanmade mod.

[buoyant hearth]

I'm shocked no one has done that yet

[hollow shell]

Its been sprited, I know that

Or actually, I think that was for the old crawler sprites

[buoyant hearth]

Looks it will take some crossmodding for anyone to attempt to make that real as a separate mod

[mighty knot]

sorry, I suddenly have to go (I know it's bad suggestions practice). just ping me if you have anything to say about my suggestion and I'll read it when I get back

[grim tusk]

in all honestly this is a kinda bad suggestion

Devs do know that theres a lack of summon weps in pre-Providence (3 sentries; 2 of em being ML's drops (Lunar portal, rainbow crystal and energy staff), 2 summons (Axes and plague engines)), curve flattening would allow things like Dragon, GodSpawn Helix and Cells (although this one kinda is already (except vs Providence)) to be used with some effectiveness

As for post-Golem tier
Devs know hive pod (and spikecrag) is op despite being pre-Golem and Merk will personally execute it
The summons available at that tier are plenty and mostly decent (xeno, tempest, sandsharks, blehers, etc.) (and the OoA sentries) but there problem here is that Res Butterflies are just overpowered or that the others are shit (specially tempest)

[crude geode]

If cells aren’t effective against provi, that would mean that they’re kinda useless for post ml considering that’s the next boss fight after moon lord that summoners care about.

Also oh my god, a class has seven or nine weapons avaliable at a tier?? Unbelievable, change this immediately.

[grim tusk]

they work for some reason vs Folly, Guardians, Signus and even fucking Polterghast

stay close for more dmg moment

[fossil finch]

Sugg to add more weapons instead tbh

[crude geode]

Yeah

Melee gets ten weapons every time it sneezes but summoner having seven or nine is apparently bloat

[grim tusk]

then theres rogue which has the same issue as summoner

[crude geode]

also I can’t believe ViralMelon is a ding dong ditch suggestor smh my head

[ashen warren]

melee

if only melee had more accessories and less weapons

[ashen warren]

also i am really looking forward to how calamity is gonna add in whips in 1.4

[ashen warren]

I really want a white that just has calaimtas and the end of it

[mighty knot]

unimportant but I actually left out several so here's the updated list, although since I'm deleting the suggestion I'm not gonna update it there

sentries:
pulse turret
hive pod
spikecrag
dreadmine
ballista
lightning aura
flameburst
explosive trap

minions:
butterflies
belchers
sharks
sandsharks
plagued remote idk the name
fuel cell bundle
ufo
borealis bomber (kinda)
entropy's vigil and abandoned slime staff are also fairly useable despite being off-tier as well

ig the main issue is that butterflies/hive pod outclass a lot of the other summons, but unlike other classes, summoner can't really switch weapons on a whim and therefore the amount of weapons you can have at one time with them all being useful is a lot lower, especially earlier when you don't have as many minion slots
the pre-provi era also just seemed like a convenient place to move stuff, although there are other weapons like the aforementioned 2 sentries and stardust weapons but those are so bad I didn't even consider them
regardless, in hindsight I don't think it would be the right way to fix either issue so I'm gonna retract it

[crude geode]

If you’re considering post plantera weapons as post golem than summoner does not have too much of a problem of bloat compared to other classes.

[grim tusk]

And yes the truly post-Golem pre-other bosses summons (and sentries) are
OoA t3
Xeno
Butterflies

Plague stuff needs PBG
Pulse turret needs PBG
Tempest (why tho) needs Fishron
Spike crag needs Rav

[crude geode]

Summoner doesn’t even get a weapon from scoria lol

[mighty knot]

when does it ever get weapons from ores

[crude geode]

even tho other classes get like two or three

[grim tusk]

Never (unless you count Optic staff since hallowed ore will be a thing)

[crude geode]

That’s always seemed kinda silly to me considering magic is allowed to make things from ores a lot of the time

[mighty knot]

exactly
it's a main mechanic of the class adapted from negligence and underdevelopment in vanilla

lmao

[sleek turret]

good sugg

i agree

[distant gyro]

1.5 moment

[gray nebula]

so true

suggestion already done. kinda. partly.

[distant gyro]

kinda partly

ish

[crude geode]

is it still valid then?

[distant gyro]

idk

[mighty knot]

I like it but I'd point out that there is a reason to mine: summoner still has helmets for ore armors, even if it doesn't have weapons

[crude geode]

“outside of getting bars for an obligatory new armor set”

Unless you want me to address it more

[mighty knot]

oh that was in the top line I missed it

mb

[earnest raptor]

Summons are not that much different from each other.

I guess.

While for melee you get slow swords, spears, flails, knives and whatever.

What summons do?

They shoot or ram things.

That's it.

Mostly.

[whole sedge]

borealis bomber could kinda be extended to every class of ranger and mage just being shoot projectile and melee being stabby thing that usually shoot projectile but yeah ig

[wooden wedge]

@still minnow you need a reason

also isn't that item a dedicated item

[whole sedge]

Need a title then body also instead of just one sentence.

[cobalt pewter]

Yes it's a dedicated item

[fossil finch]

Shouldn't it be exclaimed

[novel belfry]

I kinda actually agree with this suggestion, seeing as Leviathan's most well known for no hitting bosses

It needs a lot more explaining though

[unborn oriole]

Add a Calamitas NPC. 🙂

[cobalt pewter]

@hollow shell last sugg needs a pong to levi and/or an ❗ ig

To be fair this lacks reason too

So I'd probably skip the levi ping

[hollow shell]

Oh boy

Yeah @still minnow you need a reason, separated from your title line with a line break (Shift+Enter)
and, I think you mean Rage attack, Gael's doesn't use Adrenaline
Unless you're proposing that it should? Which could be clearer.
And in any case we'd need to get permission from Levi who the item is dedicated to

[muted osprey]

haha bad formating

[eternal escarp]

you should follow the correct formatting, and add reasons

[clever canopy]

Haha bad suggestion

[eternal escarp]

@severe inlet

[clever canopy]

Read the pins in #suggestions-posting

[eternal escarp]

(saying "haha bad suggestion" to them doesnt exactly help their suggestion)

[muted osprey]

[clever canopy]

Never said it would

[hollow shell]

You gotta elaborate a lot more notsanatic

and, we already do the latter.

... and the former

[muted osprey]

this man also reply pinged fab

[eternal escarp]

i think they just want, more

instesd of making it a thing when it wasnt?

[muted osprey]

there's already alot added

and probably more to come too

[eternal escarp]

well, there absolutely is

and some already known in the changelogs

[muted osprey]

alch npc becoming redundant go brrrrrrrrrr

[eternal escarp]

but agian, we dont know whats the "more" they want because they still haven't elaborated

alch npc has more npcs then the potion guys

[clever canopy]

Fix my boy amidas before adding more NPCs

[eternal escarp]

whats the problem with amidias?

[clever canopy]

His shop only upgrades for boss summons, so he’s only really useful when you unlock him other than summons

[muted osprey]

the virgin amidias vs the chad permafrost

[clever canopy]

Most other NPCs have shops that update after killing x boss to have new weapons/accessories/materials

[eternal escarp]

ah yes

i remember suggesting about that exact thing

#suggestions-voting message

hopefully the right link

it was sadly rejected, it seems

[clever canopy]

Yeah that’s where I saw the problem first

[eternal escarp]

actually, wanted to ask, since ive seen it asked once before

rover, do you know what was the reason for the rejection? if its something you can say?

(should prolly ping you, @hollow shell )

[hollow shell]

Lemme see if there was any talk about it

Yeah
One reason that got brought up was that spreading Amidias's wares throughout the game would give him a very sparse initial inventory, which would leave a bad impression

And also his current inventory is just useless fluff that they'd rather rework entirely than try to fix

[eternal escarp]

ah, those make sense

thanks rover!

[hollow shell]

Yeah no problem
(I didn't really agree with those reasons when they came up but I guess it's fine as long as they acknowledge it's still a problem atm, and a solution eventually happens)

[clever canopy]

Instead of spreading out his current shop could other items that are already related to the ocean/sunken sea not be moved to his shop? For example floodtide would fit well in his shop

[eternal escarp]

yeah, atleast the problem is known, so no need for more suggestions / conversations to show the problem agian

floodtide is a single weapon in a certain time in progression, which id say would be wirrd

unlike permafrost, who mostly gives a batch of weapons at a time

or bandit which slowly (but frequently) fills up through progression

[clever canopy]

That was just one example, it wouldn’t be the only one

[eternal escarp]

oh yeah

[still minnow]

I just thought of an adrenaline attack based on the slave knight Gael bossfight.

also who pinged fab

[clever canopy]

You still have to give a good reason why it should be added though

[buoyant idol]

@still minnow Also you need to check with the person who owns the item

@severe inlet #suggestions-posting message Read the document so you can learn how to format

[eternal escarp]

they were already directed to the doc like, twice iirc

[buoyant idol]

Ok, my bad

[grim tusk]

#suggestions-posting message
Have you tried dodging by going counter clock wise?
Makes the attack very easy

[tranquil perch]

@mighty knot high IQ way to dodge cocoon spears from the left

[grim tusk]

That as well

Hell vortex booster could allow you to do it horizontally even

[eternal escarp]

@summer shadow you cannot suggest anything relating future content

also, you lacked reasoning aswell

[summer shadow]

Oh ok

I just deleted it

It's just that with the wing slot mod, we would get 9 accerories

[eternal escarp]

then, dont use wing slot in 1.4

[earnest cape]

Base game was never built around mods

[eternal escarp]

and mods werent built around each other aswell

[grim tusk]

And accs slots are hardcapped at 7 (see fargo’s souls celestial pact and then try celestial onion) due to redcode

Unless workarounds such as cheatsheet and wingslots which require high effort

And wingslot screws balance over already

[mighty knot]

you still get pretty close to the barrier there, although it is better
problem isn't that it's too hard to dodge or anything but the way you dodge it doesn't make much sense compared to the rest of the fight

[tardy smelt]

amidias's blessing is very useful for abyss exploration tho

so it's not entirely that way

[clever canopy]

I mean if you're exploring the abyss you should probably have an item that grants water breathing anyway, especially one that doesn't disappear when you get hit

[mighty knot]

yes but other water breathing buffs only increase the time it takes to drown, they don't infinitely forestall it like amidas's blessing does

plus amidas has the help dialogue which is probably useful for a lot of new players throughout the game

[whole sedge]

this suggests players read NPC dialogue I can say from my own experience that Amidias' blessing is pretty much a godsend for early game abyss exploration as at that point you do have a few accessories that help, at the main cost of not being as damaging overall though which does indeed help

[clever canopy]

Tbh I didn't even know it existed till it was brought up

I think most people, like me, pretty much ignore any npc button that isn't their shop

[crude geode]

reforge

[hollow shell]

nurse

stylist

[grim tusk]

Tax collector

[hollow shell]

Okay that one is worth ignoring

[fossil finch]

granted tax collector is fucking useless but

[mighty knot]

amidas help option not being clearly communicated is a whole other problem though

[fossil finch]

what do you want though

for the button to shine in rainbows?

[ashen warren]

that would be cool

like how deviants help does for the first time

[mighty knot]

idk, I feel like the problem is that people aren't being directed to Amidas at all after they initially find him and buy items from him

something that tells you his help dialogue updates as you progress in some way would help a lot

[sand umbra]

imagine ignorin' the best NPC vanity feature in the game just because it's not a shop button
kinda cringe, honestly

[clever canopy]

I think a lot of people just don't care about vanity tbh

[hollow shell]

I'm always hype when I find the Stylist cuz of the pretty animated hair

[crude geode]

Bot’s dead

[zenith hazel]

notified amber

[keen zealot]

you can kinda tell this is the case when people leave all accessory visibility on

[dapper coral]

...does JE do this? i swear i remember seeing some picture of npcs with exclamation marks on their heads or something, maybe it was a mod and maybe it was JE

[earnest raptor]

it's about shops and not new dialogue

[hollow shell]

You're thinking of Calamity. We add exclamation marks to NPCs that sell new shop items

yeah

[earnest raptor]

wait

I thought it was Census adding those

[hollow shell]

You could mention that in your suggestion as a comparison

Nah, but you'd think they would, right?

[earnest raptor]

yes

I also noticed how they don't appear on some NPCs but I categorized that as unsupported, because Census didn't show conditions for them either

[dapper coral]

ah okay

sick

[tranquil perch]

Free money tho

Will be useful in draedon update probably

Since armageddon inflation is gonna die

[clever canopy]

I mean a full collection from the tax collector gives significantly less than killing BoC, so it's not a great way to make money

[bitter isle]

Why do you guys think my suggestion to make boss summons like the cryo key non - consumable was rejected?

[fossil finch]

This is the kind of questions you ask rover really

[safe oasis]

he did technically ask rover (along with everyone else)

[twilit warren]

It’s sad when an excellent suggestion gets rejected

Oh well I’m sure the devs have their reasons

[safe oasis]

also about the pin in #suggestions-voting #suggestions-voting message

what happened to 🗜️

[eternal escarp]

forgotten..?

[frail mantle]

i most definitely forgot about it

[cobalt pewter]

Not sure if this has been touched yet

But I looked at one of the more recent suggs about provi's cocoon spear attack in detail

And I don't recall any of the dodging tricks mentioned working reliably? At least I remember the very solid way to do it is to slowly walk counterclockwise on horizontal platforms (if you're above provi, from her right, if below, from her left)

[still zodiac]

From my experience you can consistently dodge it with the above mentioned strategies, so idk

[hollow shell]

That's a technical reaction. It is rare because it only happens if there's a title-reason separation error in a suggestion that's reached 24 hours

We may not even need it in the legend, honestly
and just explain its deal every time it comes up

(which iirc has been only once so far, outside of testing)

[safe oasis]

wait so it only happens after the sugg is already at the threshold to be moved into #suggestions-voting ?

not sure what else you mean by reaching 24 hours

[eternal escarp]

prolly

or before its supposed to

[cobalt pewter]

Usually at #suggestions-posting it would be marked that

[safe oasis]

i've seen suggs with a space error marked as a ❗ rather than a 🗜️ so i don't really get why it exists at all is the thing

[hollow shell]

It's because the bot uses 🗜️

Automatically

[safe oasis]

oh i see

[hollow shell]

once it's ready to be delivered but it encounters a spacing error.

[safe oasis]

so then is there a reason for it to be marked with an ❗ at all in that case?

[hollow shell]

Some clients have this weird line break which isn't the same as the usual one
and doesn't show up on other clients

so a spacing issue can occur without anyone realizing it

And yeah I guess we could use 🗜️ if the suggestion's ONLY problem is spacing.
Though usually it isn't.

[safe oasis]

gotcha, thanks for clarifying

[hollow shell]

👍

[visual wigeon]

You're just in it for the armor material

Not that I have anything against that

[fossil finch]

are you aware pillars would become totally pointless if this were to happen as their only function is overcharging wulfrum enemies

[ashen warren]

yes

but I've never seen a wulfrum pylon live long enough to charge a wulfrum enemy

[fossil finch]

then make a sugg about that instead of a really strange change that looks simply like you want to get cores faster honestly

[ashen warren]

sure

done

[hollow shell]

@ashen warren Title line could be more descriptive than "fix"

[ashen warren]

I tried to think of one but failed

actually I got something now

[hollow shell]

Hm

I think "buff" could be an appropriate word

[ashen warren]

I can't think of a title without being too vague or too long

[hollow shell]

You're right about that, I can't think of anything much better

I agree with the sugg too
Our intention was for Wulfrum Pylons to basically be the centerpiece of a mini wulfrum event
But they die too fast, have too small a radius, and have too weak of a spawn rate boost to actually do that effectively

[ashen warren]

indeed

maybe the title should be change wulfrum pylon supercharging?

[hollow shell]

I think "Buff all Wulfrum Pylon functions" would work
cuz every aspect of them needs to be more effective in order for them to be notable at all

[ashen warren]

sounds good

thanks

[hollow shell]

👍 I hope it does well.

[ashen warren]

👍

[grim tusk]

remeber the providence sugg video?
Its almost done and should be in #suggestions-posting shortly

[hollow shell]

I appreciate suggestion video

[grim tusk]

it took longer than i though to make

[hollow shell]

but I'm personally fine with keeping it Night exclusive. Makes Night more unique.
(and the extra lasers are brutal in MP which is fine for a challenge boss but would be iffy for the main fight)

[keen zealot]

not to mention teleportation already isn't a free dodge, just very easy

[sleek turret]

Good explanation video.

And also good suggestion.

[distant vault]

@dapper coral

[dapper coral]

dom got it

[distant vault]

awesome

[mighty knot]

@grim tusk seems good but I'd like to point out that in multiplayer the extra beams suck ass

[grim tusk]

.

[fossil finch]

I don't understand this sugg at all because it's asking for a less cramped abyss but the proposed solution is making it taller instead of wider?

Also moving the Islands to the sides and letting the center of the abyss always be water (i understand this is another point of the sugg) would make for extremely dull and boring exploration and for an extremely easy way to get to lower layers without a single inconvenience, it wouldn't do shit

[still zodiac]

That's just basically old abyss generation

[crude geode]

I’d argue there is still points where there is nothing in the abyss, such as the initial dive before the islands, and tier four where you have the bottom and nothing else.

which does give that feeling of just nothingness

[fossil finch]

Fourth layer is chungus af in big worlds mind you

[crude geode]

Also this isn’t subnautica as much as the worms down there disagree, perfectly mimicking the emptiness of the deep ocean would just leave no real reason to go there

[keen zealot]

I think they're asking for the abyss to be wider

[ashen warren]

No they’re not, at least not in the suggestion

[keen zealot]

much further into the underground areas on a world size medium and above
the ambiguity in the language used makes it sound like depth by default but in reality this could mean width as well

I mean you literally cannot make the abyss any deeper or else you flood hell

[ashen warren]

You could move it a single block deeper perhaps

I do think the wording needs to be better if he’s referring to width

[keen zealot]

even a single block runs the risk of flooding hell in some small world seeds

so uh, no actually

and that's ignoring that the type of worldgen the abyss uses can't be specifically tuned to be one block shallower or deeper

[eternal escarp]

most of the time, when you mean further, you mean to continue in a given direction, which in the abyss' case, is down

its very easy to assume they mean deeper

[keen zealot]

mhm

[eternal escarp]

and if the sugg somehow passes to dev, devs would assume so aswell

[keen zealot]

but it can still mean wider

[eternal escarp]

doesnt matter really

[ashen warren]

Technically by default there are some blocks under the abyss that hold it up, and if you move those blocks down the abyss won’t flood the underworld. Also that was supposed to be a sarcastic joke and I didn’t mean to trigger a discussion around it.

[eternal escarp]

the suggestion needs to make itself clear

[ashen warren]

^

[keen zealot]

this is also true

[eternal escarp]

and for reasons explained above, the suggestors idea doesnt hold up much ground tbf

[sand umbra]

if the Abyss is to be made less cramped, it needs to be wider, not deeper

[fossil finch]

sugg point (Sugg point)

[sand umbra]

the Abyss' main problem is that it has about the width of a half-eaten pretzel stick

[fossil finch]

yes

[sand umbra]

sure, you have a lot of vertical space, but what about horizontal space?

this also makes it very difficult to add any new significant generation to the Abyss because of the lack of sufficient horizontal space invalidatin' most attempts at traditional structure design

[fossil finch]

honestly it would be cool if abyss structure wasn't a stick and had more defined layers and shits

[sand umbra]

that'd be cool, but it'd also require mroe than likely an update specifically dedicated to it

and I don't think that's happenin' for a while

[fossil finch]

Can we also make the islands more interesting

yeah it isn't
crags, sunken sea, and astral come first on that list

[sand umbra]

that bein' said I would appreciate eventually gettin' an update dedicated to overhaulin' the Abyss

[fossil finch]

1.6 :hooboohoo:

anywho @rose jacinth you have to read above this and answer accordingly iirc

[fossil finch]

Starting here

[tardy smelt]

Astral is mostly fine except for the underground section just... existing for the most part

Crags and Sunken Sea though... hooboy

[fossil finch]

iban finds sunken sea to be extremely bland when it comes to how it looks to that could be adressed in next funny mayor update after draedon™️ and crags is crags
Astral lacks a lot of reasoning to go and offers no nice exploration elements lol

[tardy smelt]

hallowed is kind of the same though and for sensible reasons too

[fossil finch]

it's vanilla though (hallowed ore too ig) :troll:

[tardy smelt]

adding in whole new world structures at the middle of the game can cause issues

[fossil finch]

there used to be plans for a hallow expansion update 9 bajillion years ago
anyways offtopic tbh

[tardy smelt]

say-what if said structures spawned right on top of and would overwrite other important structures

cough cough

[fossil finch]

crossmodding be like

[frozen hornet]

I sure do love having my base and everyone in it obliterated by a castle

[fossil finch]

cryo ruins when though,.,

[frozen hornet]

Calval moment

[tardy smelt]

a Jungle Temple/Abyss-esque approach seems a bit better to me

just lock off a part of the world until a certain point in progression or through the use of Softlocks

[cobalt pewter]

Also there's this quirky thing called

Dungeon

[tardy smelt]

that one's just locked behind skelly tho

and you can fight him at the dead on start of the game if you got the stuff for it- like WoF

[fossil finch]

i think he means for the sugg's purpose of expanding the abyss

[grim tusk]

Which becomes Gungeon post-plant cuz vanilla logic

Then darkest dungeon post-ml

And abyss is mostly fine

Unless small world

But on medium and large worlds its perfectly fine

[tardy smelt]

I think wulfrum is fine

like it's not just early game it's at the dead start of the game and for being at said point in progression

[wooden quartz]

I used wulfram for my melee, it was nice. Seems good for being the same tier as wood

[tardy smelt]

it's pretty a-ok

[twilit warren]

i always go for wulfrum

mostly because im too lazy to grind victide

[tardy smelt]

if you want ore sets you'll have to go mining, and for victide you have to fan out the desert which isn't an easy task early on

[twilit warren]

yea

[safe oasis]

takes a while to farm though when you could just chop a tree and get a full wood set

[wooden quartz]

I just make the weapon and leave\

[safe oasis]

or quickly do scourge once and get full victide

[hollow shell]

Wulfrum became a lot less reliably obtainable now that you need to kill Pylons for cores

[tardy smelt]

that's true.

[earnest raptor]

^

[twilit warren]

ive never had to much of a problem getting it

[earnest raptor]

I thought than energy core drops are some random bullshit.

[tardy smelt]

but specifically for summon wulfrum it's good for the very start of the game

[earnest raptor]

Like 20% from mobs.

[hollow shell]

They're not random, no

[earnest raptor]

I thought it was random.

[hollow shell]

Lemme double check the source

[earnest raptor]

my playthrough is at 2x speed, so supercharged enemies didn't made me struck so much because whatever, they move equally fast and I equally oneshot them with musket

[hollow shell]

Yeah
It's a guaranteed drop from Pylons, but only drops from the other enemies if they're supercharged by a Pylon

100% chances

[earnest raptor]

Maybe this should be communicated better.

[hollow shell]

Like, making the tooltip say why it dropped, kinda like the Hook ingredient?

"Salvaged from a supercharged Wulfrum robot"

[clever canopy]

Honestly just make wulfrum a summoner-specific armor set with a set bonus similar to the wulfrum pylons function where it empowers nearby summons

rogue is better going for snow ruffian, ranged is better going for desert prowler, melee is better going for ore armors due to higher defense, mage is better going for jungle armor or gem robes, and they're all better going for victide

[fossil finch]

And that's a bad idea because suddenly anyone but mage and melee granted the later doesn't need it have early game specific class armors for them
Jungle doesn't count because jungle

[clever canopy]

Getting a gem robe is probably easier than getting a wulfrum set and provides better stats

[fossil finch]

By the time you get a good gem robe or jungle armor you're no longer the same level of early game snow ruffian or wulfrum suppose you to be, really

[clever canopy]

jungle is difficult tho

[fossil finch]

That's pure rng, and it really isn't

Getting a decent gem robe requires a lot of ug mining, getting entire wulfrum requires 3 terraria days on the surface at most

[sleek turret]

gem robes are basically (on rev) go to underground, get gravity potions/rope, get some webs and bla bla bla mining and crafting

[clever canopy]

It's just 10 gems and some spider webs, most people could get that by night one

[hollow shell]

10 of one gem type can be difficult to gather in my experience

You usually end up with like 3 or 4 of several different gems

[fossil finch]

Yep

[sleek turret]

diamonds are rng honestly unless you do some planetoid gatering or fishing

[fossil finch]

Planetoid requires gravity pot rng

[sleek turret]

both are rng anyways

[fossil finch]

Or funny using ropes but nobody does that

Getting any decent gem robe takes more work than just a night yea

[sleek turret]

can't have a single way to get gems without involving rng shit in first place

[clever canopy]

You don't need to go straight for a diamond robe, even an amethyst one is probably better than wulfrum in terms of utility

the bottleneck for mages in the early game isn't damage, it's mana

[crude geode]

Wulfrum spawns just need to be more controllable not gonna lie. Maybe adding a controller you can utilize to increase/decrease the spawn rate of them, and possibly even a spawn for the pylon. Cuz Wulfrum should realistically be the first basic armor you get outside of a tree armor.

[clever canopy]

Maybe increase the rate of wulfrum spawns while inside the pylons aura?

Regardless of how it's fixed I think most people will agree that wulfrum armor has some major issues, and that's probably what should be passed on to the devs rather than a particular solution which may be controversial and not get the star requirement

[night thicket]

i dont think wulfrum needs retiered, i would rather see pylon spawnrates buffed as well as make the amount it buffs wulfrum enemies spawns A LOT higher than it currently is, since currently it kinda just does nothing

[earnest raptor]

decreased
patiently looks at wulfrum scrap being in auto-trash

[exotic stag]

yes this i wouldnt say decrease

[clever canopy]

The problem is it's hard to get enough wulfrum in the early game to make armor but too easy to get it later when there's literally no use for it

[earnest raptor]

Yeah, I started auto-trashing wulfrum before WoF because it is useless for more than armor and weapon.

Even for fargoshenenigans you need less than 70.

[clever canopy]

Fuck it I'm writing a suggestion for wulfrum tiles

[grim tusk]

Cal Vanities exists

Maybe a way to turn wulfrum scrap into arsenal stuff?

[clever canopy]

Nvm I've just checked the wulfrum sink suggestion from the other day and it's already been approved

Hopefully the devs will think of tiles and platforms as a possible solution

[earnest raptor]

Platings are already very plentiful with Draedon's Batteries.

[grim tusk]

Where else would wulfrum metal scrap make sense though? Besides the ones in that approved suggestion

[clever canopy]

Didn't know this mod added so much, last time I checked it was a few pets

[rose jacinth]

@ashen warren @keen zealot Yes I did mean wider, sorry if I was unclear in the suggestion.

[keen zealot]

well

[fossil finch]

edit it then to be clear it means wider

[keen zealot]

can you edit the sugg to make that clear before it hits the 24 hour mark?

[soft quest]

i wonder, whats the dumbest suggestion ever suggested here that wasnt a troll

[hollow shell]

That's a subjective question and also quite provocative

[soft quest]

true

[soft quest]

anyways going back to this argument i agree that wulfrum should be more common early on and less common after like.. king slime or something

or actually i dont even think it would be a bad idea to include wulfrum in the starter bag

[hollow shell]

Well then it becomes kinda useless as a drop

[soft quest]

yeah it really is a bit of a dilema

it takes about ~30 mins to get iron ore armor or snow/desert armor

but id think it'd take me 45 minutes to get luck with pylons

mages and summoners its really the only option

sounds strange but imagine just giving summoner and mage very early armors and drop the idea of wulfrum armor all together, instead turning wulfrum into an ingredient for draedon weaponry and perhaps an slightly more advanced armor

like pre aerealite

but wait thats victide

maybe on tier with cobalt and palladium actually

that could work

especially with the new hardmode changes

theres no multiclass armor there

[twilit warren]

early hardmode seems a little too cluttered already imo

maybe just tier shift the armor to post perfs and have it boost draedon's arsenal

or something

[soft quest]

according to my idea it would be like:
wulfrum/cobalt/spider
mythril
Titianium/forbidden/frost
Daedalus/hallow

after killing respective mechs and cryogen

not too cluttered, unless the non-linear hardmode config is on

[twilit warren]

well wouldnt it be
wulfrum/cobalt/palladium/spider
mythril/orichalcum
titanium/adamantite/forbidden/frost/daedalus
hallow

which is way too much

[soft quest]

you gotta beat cryo for daedalus

and you would need a titanium pick to mine it

hence it could be at hallow tier

[twilit warren]

if you can get titanium armor you can get a titanium pick?

[soft quest]

yes but you still need to kill cryogen for cryonic ore to spawn

[twilit warren]

cryogen is most peoples first hardmode boss

from what ive seen anyway

[soft quest]

after the change it would be more like, 2 mechs, then an option of cryo or another mech

3rd mech = hallow
cryo = cryonic

[twilit warren]

the way i see it is
1 mech/cryogen
2 mech/aquatic scourge
3 mech/brimmy

[soft quest]

remeber that first mech will be 30% weaker

[soft quest]

thats the way it is now

but imagine that if you cant mine cryonic until mech 2 is defeated then that would make cryogen less useful until mech 2

sure, weapons are good

[twilit warren]

i suppose

but weve gotten way off track here

[soft quest]

not really

this all ties in to where to fit armor

[twilit warren]

to me early hardmode just doesnt need another armor set

[soft quest]

i can respect that

[twilit warren]

and i have difficulty imagining wulfrum gear anywhere but pre hardmode

what with the sprites and style and such

[soft quest]

i can see that

the only place that could even fit a multiclass is pre prov

[twilit warren]

true

perhaps just increase wulfrum drop rates so the armor is easier to get

[soft quest]

lol yeah

but the cores are too out of the way i find most of the time

[twilit warren]

ive never had much difficulty finding cores, but thats another problem that could be fized with relative ease

[soft quest]

and snow ruffian, prowler, and silver tier are all better

rendering wulfrum usless for those classes

increasing drop rates would just make it a nuisance for the 99% of the rest of the game

[twilit warren]

thats something else that should be adressed

because its already a problem

[soft quest]

mhm

luckily the idea for a bigger wulfrum pool reached the 200 votes needed

[twilit warren]

perhaps large quantities of wulfrum scrap could be turned into mysterious circuitry/dubious plating

seeing as its pretty non renawable

[soft quest]

lol, post draedon wulfrum armor

"omega wulfrum"

[twilit warren]

lmao

[cloud gyro]

Just an idea, what if prismatic armor was dropped from the guardians than just tarragon for post stormweaver mages?( just an idea )

[cobalt pewter]

Wulfrum armor is

Honestly fine where it is

Victide is the problem

[cobalt pewter]

Prismatic armor is a dedicated item, so you need to ask the dedicatee for that kinda thing

[keen zealot]

you can extract the power cells for these materials

it is infinitely renewable so long as you have a single power cell maker

which is hard to avoid, let's be honest

[dim star]

I have several thousand batteries

[scenic pine]

I'm actually realizing that rev + wall of flesh doesn't need to be nerfed at all

I was probably just bad at the time idk

[hollow shell]

Ah

[eternal escarp]

that's somewhat unnecessary considering that there's already good summon weapons at that tier (i.e. herring staff)
i disagree, herring staff is basically the only viable summon at this state, especially when the slime god summons are pretty mediocre and are far less useable

i think fixing this weapon is necessary, instead of just turning it into a random pet for no real reason other then "give up on its original use because it didnt work the first time"

[sand ibex]

well what would it's use be

either it would be overbuffed to be better than the herring staff or it would just be worse

[eternal escarp]

if its AI worked better, id argue it would be a wonderful pick for the crimulan and the ebonian slime gods

thats... not true?

theres a thing called a middle ground

and it almost always exists

[sand ibex]

in the case of summoner i dont think it doess

[eternal escarp]

how do you know?

[sand ibex]

theres no input from the player

[eternal escarp]

im pretty sure theres a lot of summons that are equally good on most bosses

that, doesnt change much in this context

[sand ibex]

ive done a full summoner playthrough and thats almost never the case

[eternal escarp]

ive also played summoner, and id argue it does

for example

[distant gyro]

there's no harm in options

[eternal escarp]

on EoC, you have 2 great options
Stormjaw, Belladona
and hell, even Hermit Crab

having more options is always good

[sand ibex]

stormjaw on eoc.?

[eternal escarp]

especially when theres 1 option in a place

[distant gyro]

something players often miss due to their undying loyalty to "the best"

[eternal escarp]

because herring staff is practically the only good summon in that location

i argue necrosteocytes should be balanced to be good aswell

[sand ibex]

how would you balance it around herring staff though

[distant gyro]

it would be cool if the skeletons throw bones or something

[eternal escarp]

what do you mean?

im not sure a weapon needs to be balanced around another weapon

[sand ibex]

i didnt elaborate properly hold on

[eternal escarp]

a weapon should be balanced around the boss it should compete agianst

also, the necros have something pretty unique

the bone cells they leave around

(although them throwing projectiles could be interesting, but id argue they would just miss way more often )

[sand ibex]

lets take a class like melee
if you want to deal the most damage, you'd pick a true melee weapon or something similar
if you want a secure weapon, you'd pick something with homing and long range
if you like using yoyos, you'd use a yoyo and etc.

with summoner this doesn't exist

[eternal escarp]

thats

not exactly true though?

[sand ibex]

how so

[eternal escarp]

theres many cases true melee, for example
doesnt deal the most damage in a tier

[sand ibex]

i dont see how that's relevant

[eternal escarp]

im saying that the logic there doesnt really hold up

[sand ibex]

in general you have multiple weapon options which serve different purposes

something does the most damage, something is the easiest to use, something is interesting and etc.

[eternal escarp]

especially when most of the time melee has 2 modes
tank or ranger

something that does most damage and something thats easy to use almost always allign

[distant gyro]

then there is a time and place for something summoner to act as the best for something

[eternal escarp]

in most classes

[distant gyro]

take the magical conch

[sand ibex]

nope

[distant gyro]

that shit rubs off eow the moment it slides into the running worm

[eternal escarp]

yeah, conch is amazing
but you need to play correctly to use it

[distant gyro]

put it against normal or flying enemies and it will completely do nothing

[eternal escarp]

~~unless you spam summon on the boss ~~

[sand ibex]

the thing is theres only one boss that the staff of necro could be used against

[eternal escarp]

theres 2, actually

SG and WoF

[sand ibex]

wall of flesh?

[eternal escarp]

yes

[distant gyro]

kinda but not really

[sand ibex]

yeah thats not gonna happen

[distant gyro]

because the slime summons directly take place of the necro

[eternal escarp]

its not gonna happen because necro is really underwhelming currently

[distant gyro]

they're both ground summons

[sand ibex]

and if it does then slime god summons become obsolete

[eternal escarp]

theoretically, necro could be used for WoF

[distant gyro]

so the slime god staves directly upgrade necro, at the cost of being boss drop

[sand ibex]

well maybe it could be turned into a good summon for... 1 boss... but i still think making it a pet item would be better

[distant gyro]

tbh every minion kinda sucks at sg

[sand ibex]

the skeletons look pretty cute

id definitely use it

[distant gyro]

it's probably more efficient in the current state to do wof

[eternal escarp]

also, while slime staves are technically an upgrade, they do not have a unique gimmick (not that i am aware of) unlike necrosteocytes (which have a gimmick that could be of use)

so i do see a reason to theoretically still use them, granted they were fit for a job

[sand ibex]

there's just not enough diversity in bosses for it to be worth balancing in my opinion

then again that is subjective

[eternal escarp]

making the summon a pet is just saying "this weapon is bad, so instead of fixing it just give up"
why give up instead of add more options to summoner?

when there are basically none

[sand ibex]

its not just that

it looks more like a pet item than a summon

[fossil finch]

i will bring back the point ig: just buff them lol
and give crimulian and ebonian the fucking
Interaction of summoning sg core when you summom them together

[eternal escarp]

that makes no sense, to me

every summon could be argued to be a pet

[sand ibex]

not really

its a baby skeleton

[eternal escarp]

its a baby fish

its a baby slime

[fossil finch]

Yes every summon could be argued to be a pet because there's nothing delimiting what a pet is or not

[eternal escarp]

its a baby vile feeder

i do not see your point there frankly

[eternal escarp]

that

[sand ibex]

maybe

[distant gyro]

there are no real borders between minions and pets and light pets

[sand ibex]

yeah this is entirely subjective

so its not a strong argument

[eternal escarp]

mhm

this is why i see no real reason as to why giving up on the weapon is a good idea

[distant gyro]

although there are minions that turn into pets they aren't something for precedence

[eternal escarp]

when making the weapon usable will only benifit the class

[sand ibex]

its a bit too gimmicky for me

[eternal escarp]

especially when summoner has so little weapons already

[sand ibex]

not sure what everyone else thinks

[eternal escarp]

the fact it has that bone cell gimmick makes it special, to me

[distant gyro]

(if you want to know what it is, the plague caller is an add from the infected remote turned pet item for permanence)

[sand ibex]

the only use i could see for the item is it being used to kill the slime god core slightly more easily

which is super niche

[eternal escarp]

is it niche? i see them usable for pretty much the entire fight

if, they were balanced accordingly to actually be usable

[sand ibex]

hmm

well should the herring staff just be left behind or something

[eternal escarp]

no?

[sand ibex]

the weapon is either better or worse

[eternal escarp]

there can be 2 summons in the same tier
thats what the point is
having diversity

[sand ibex]

thats the easiest way to make a weapon unviable

[eternal escarp]

that is not true
you can have 2 weapons be roughly the same strengh

and its easier when they are diff

like here, a flying and a ground summon

[sand ibex]

theres no input from the player so i dont think thats a difference that matters

you cant be more comfortable with one weapon than the other

[eternal escarp]

input from the player shouldnt matter at all in this case

its 100% on how the summons behave

[sand ibex]

thats just rng

[eternal escarp]

thats.. not?

if an AI is coded properly then its not really RNG

[sand ibex]

the player has no control over how the summons behave though

[eternal escarp]

im pretty sure if an AI is just to jump and move to the boss, theres not much if any RNG involved in it

[sand ibex]

hmm

i still dont think having 2 weapons with the same purpose is very balancable

[eternal escarp]

wh

melee has atleast 3 weapons that behave pretty much the same in most tiers

and its balanced

[sand ibex]

u sure its balanced

[eternal escarp]

yes

[sand ibex]

im not sure its balanced

just look at the graveyard of melee weapons crafted with auric tesla bars

[eternal escarp]

ill give you an example then

[fossil finch]

You'd be surprised by the fact that graveyard works mostly fine on scal

[sand ibex]

yet no one uses them

[eternal escarp]

actually i dont even need melee

[sand ibex]

unless they're purposefully handicapping themselves to a certain weapon

[fossil finch]

Sure everyone uses ark but that's meta hugging, different from the other weapons not being viable

[eternal escarp]

i have a summoner example which works well

Ancient Mineral Sharks and Ancient Ice Chunk

both are pretty much bash summons

and both are pretty much as strong as the other on most bosses

[sand ibex]

i havent seen anyone use the mineral sharks

[eternal escarp]

(granted, sharks will be moved a tier next update, but i think their stats remain the same?)

i used them

and they are great

[sand ibex]

ancient ice chunk is way easier to get

why would you bother

[eternal escarp]

id argue agianst that

[frail mantle]

because they are good

[eternal escarp]

^

[sand ibex]

but its a waste of time

[eternal escarp]

getting ice chunk is a waste of time too

[frail mantle]

it isn't a waste of time if they're good

[sand ibex]

but they're equally as good and one is harder to get