#suggestions-discussion
cobalt pewter
hollow sierra
okay, that seems good
but you're still forced into seraph tracers with bloodflare because elysian wings don't do enough
its pretty funny actually, elysian wing's bonuses are literally just what seraph gives (movespeed, lava immunity, heat protection) but less of all of them
well, not less of them, i worded that wrong
ashen warren
hover wings post ml pog
hollow sierra
you mean starboard?
ripe owl
i can pin a YT video to my sug, right?
tawny garden
u think i'm stupid?
wut
ripe owl
just
tawny garden
no
glass sentinel
tawny garden
just that it wouldn't be great if the video has a 3-minute ad at the start 
ripe owl
i'm trying no to break rules as much as i can
ripe owl
just that it wouldn't be great if the video has a 3-minute ad at the start <:HDf...
nope it does not
ripe owl
it's just a stupid nohit attempt that contains the, uh...
ripe owl
the main root of my sugg
glass sentinel
great title
ripe owl
ik
tawny garden
ripe owl
i called it because of guess what
glass sentinel
press the share button
eternal escarp
me digging through the vid to see the funne be like
glass sentinel
and press the start at whatever thing
tawny garden
hooooly shit
ripe owl
altho you didnt die to the super fast worm
Anyway that was unexpected and very strange
heady storm
you are nohitting him
“I can’t successfully nohit it within a few tries, so now I should go and write a suggestion only because of that.”
Is basically what all reasoning related to nohitting sounds like to me, and why I highly encourage its removal.
@ripe owl
tawny garden
the worm still shouldn't do that
although stuff about nohitting could be removed from the sugg
heady storm
All I’m requesting is that he removes the line I just quoted from his suggestion.
Eyeah.
ripe owl
Changed
Now it's just "You're fighting the AD"
And yes, even if i'm nohitting him and fucking up a lot that was not the main reason
I actually like have a lot of things that causes me to lose
heady storm
Coolio.
crude geode
Isn’t this intended behavior?
I thought it was tbh
Similar to how DoG and Storm Weaver do it
tawny garden
it is if you go far away from it yourself
it shouldn't just go far away itself, only to return at the speed of a space shuttle
like some kind of overly complicated big brain pro gamer move
ashen warren
DoG had that behavior but I think it got removed due to the nature of its head cheapshotting everyone due to that
DoG teleports now
ashen warren
Tis a bug that I haven’t had the time nor resources to fully look into/debug it yet
tawny garden
The code isn't public, right?
ashen warren
Right yeah, all my bots are kotlin and closed source
sharp prism
I agree
sleek turret
I agree with this suggestion.
jovial spire
yeah really wouldn't be hard at all to impliment either
hot zephyr
Sounds good to me
tawny garden
were I missing out by not using Frog Leg+?
tawny garden
m
jovial spire
it's a 48% boost
tawny garden
jovial spire
for refrence vital jelly is 24%, Aero Stone is 20%, HotE is 20%, absorber is 24%
The Sponge is also 24%
jovial spire
Actually Frog Leg needs a nerf ngl
hot zephyr
Celest, do not fucking TOUCH my baby.
tawny garden
zealous ridge
froge leg could death and i would be okay with it
i guess i want to ask if stacking jump boosts is a thing
like, would a frog leg realistically be all you need for a good while or is it viable to use vital+frog for example
zealous ridge
thats what id think would be good
its like 2 jump acc in one for no extra investment in other areas
sand umbra
literally better than every piece of BoB combined with none of the hassle
zealous ridge
fuck really
sand umbra
and all you need to do is fish
zealous ridge
i love sandstorm
sand umbra
you just need to fish for like 2 seconds
zealous ridge
well it depends
hot zephyr
Like I'm not going to use both bob and leg
zealous ridge
but catching like 10 frogs is hardly an issue at all
sand umbra
okay 2 seconds to 2 minutes depending on your luck but that's getting into the finer details
zealous ridge
as well
sand umbra
and yeah Calamity adds the 10-frog recipe
hot zephyr
Balancing accessories around their difficulty to acquire is dumb
sand umbra
balancing accessories around their progression point, however, isn't
hot zephyr
That's fair
zealous ridge
thats not what my point was as much
zealous ridge
yeah
zealous ridge
fucking amphibian boots as well, will be probably meta
sand umbra
it really do be like that
hot zephyr
95% of prehm accessories are pre boss lmao
zealous ridge
yea
hot zephyr
Don't forget about frost spark
sand umbra
Frostsparks are cool too
zealous ridge
frostspark is pre-boss but i dont see it as required by any stretch
hot zephyr
God it'd suck ass if BoB/Frog leg were moved in progression
tawny garden
who allowed this
red?
zealous ridge
and its at least going to take a little bit of time
technically speaking you need rocket boots
sand umbra
correct, it should be made so you actually have to play it to some extent instead of skipping everything anyways as Calamity heavily encourages you to do
zealous ridge
just do goblins
sand umbra
zealous ridge
i think frog legs are powerful enough to even be nerfed for when you get them
its not even difficulty, its speed at which you aquire
you could theoretically get this item whenever you want, all you need is fishing
sand umbra
byeah
hot zephyr
Pre-HM is in a perfect state RN
hot zephyr
It is
zealous ridge
i think thats highly subjective yeah
hot zephyr
Go fix the shittier parts of the game first
tawny garden
no Ian
hot zephyr
ie; Mech tier
zealous ridge
okay lets not make suggestions anymore about anything regarding pre hm
bc mechs are ass
no prehm sugg allowed
jovial spire
honestly, if I had any say in it? Keep bottles pre-boss, bottles + balloons after eye somehow, and bundle post 2nd evil boss.
hot zephyr
Counterpoint Celest
You aren't usually going to fill all accessory slots pre-eye anyways
zealous ridge
i dont really think thats fair to assume yeah
i certainly have done eye without all accs filled out
but like, to say that usually you wouldnt have them filled out feels unrealistic
hot zephyr
Locking movement accessories just slows down pacing
zealous ridge
how so?
sand umbra
all Calamity does is put a 3-year-old band-aid on the problem of pre-Hardmode being absolutely god-awful in every respect
all of the problems with it still remain completely unassessed, the only thing that changes is that Calamity unceremoniously hands you everything you need to skip it on a silver platter
I can and will gladly go on an hour-long tangent about this
perhaps not here specifically but somewhere
zealous ridge
heres the thing
tawny garden
put your hour-long tangent in a google doc
zealous ridge
realistically, do you need 2x jump boost and jump speed boost that early on?
and the speed at which you explore is not strictly defined by how fast you move
hot zephyr
Most pre-hardmode bosses are easy enough where you don't need them at all; movement is just comfort
I like being able to challenge any boss at any stage; it's nice
zealous ridge
well then why do you need such movement speed buffs
if you say theyre easy without ms
sand umbra
(the simple answer: you don't)
hot zephyr
Because it opens up more opportunities
jovial spire
imo it's a little too open, but i'ms not gonan be talkign about the Deus situation because that's not the point
zealous ridge
for...? traversal? beating bosses easier?
sand umbra
what
opportunities
???
zealous ridge
when you already say they are easy enough without ms options
jovial spire
and tbh Bundle is just overpowered in general imo
zealous ridge
then wouldnt stacking more ms make them piss easy?
jovial spire
no matter when you use it
hot zephyr
brb
zealous ridge
alright
sand umbra
and tbh Bundle is just overpowered in general imo
it really is
hot zephyr
I'll agree with you on bundle; it needs to be moved.
sand umbra
Bundle is the epitome of "tinkers earlygame are stupidly good"
jovial spire
not even just because of hwo early you cen get it
even in late HM it's too powerful i feel like
sand umbra
you get 3 extra jumps, increased jump height, easy-as-fuck turnaround thanks to Sandstorm in particular, and a complimentary belly rub just for getting the thing
jovial spire
hell, i consider it betetr than some of the early HM wings
zealous ridge
my point im making here, is that giving easy access to these options in the way they are given here is hardly a need, it lets you crash through pre hardmode fast as fuck
sand umbra
that's all in one accessory by the way
hot zephyr
Having adequate movement/jump speed in pre-hardmode lets you fight most fights out of order; it gives the player choice to pick which fights they'd prefer doing.
sand umbra
so you can stack yourself up the rest of the way with wings, a hook, more jump speed bonuses, etc.
zealous ridge
okay, but bundle is hardly adequate
its excessive
i know you agree on bob
but to iterate, it is too much
and it is not the only option, as well
hot zephyr
Why are you trying to lecture me on something we agree on 
zealous ridge
?
hot zephyr
Bundle needs to be put at like... statigel level
zealous ridge
i dont mean to come off like that, its just how i talk
sand umbra
ngl
I don't usually push for vanilla changes because I feel those are my territory mostly in some cases
but I would not mind Calamity progression-locking Bundle somehow
zealous ridge
im sorry
hot zephyr
Just add purified gel to the recipe
sand umbra
Purified Gel becoming necessary for Bundle is a way to do it
I could honestly get behind that
Purified Gel needs more purposes that aren't just Statigel armor anyway
zealous ridge
well it does have uses
hot zephyr
It's used in zen/zerg
zealous ridge
but more doesnt exactly hurt
hot zephyr
Used to craft a few demon altar recipes
zealous ridge
its used in zerg? huh
hot zephyr
It's got a few accessories as well
zealous ridge
i thought it used murky
hot zephyr
hot zephyr
Bloody Edge is just shittier, harder to get Carnage
zealous ridge
more like carnage is an easier better bloody edge
hot zephyr
Too bad Carnage is locked behind event RNG
sand umbra
honestly make Bloody Edge function like Carnage and then kill Carnage
hot zephyr
^
zealous ridge
kill RIVs????????
hot zephyr
Kill most RIVs, they're weird
zealous ridge
sand umbra
pre-HM weapons doing more stuff is always good 
sand umbra
RIVs are weird
zealous ridge
to not get too far off track, theyre just a borderlands reference which adds almost nothing besides locking a few interesting weapons behind kill paywalls
fab has done this a lot
issac DR
a thousand and a half references to other games
sand umbra
I still think Gungeon-/Isaac-style boss DR is stupid 
hot zephyr
Fuck you for dealing damage, Thomas!
sand umbra
Purified Jam is the epitome of "too strong to use"
zealous ridge
also small note on purified gel
hot zephyr
We're stretching this fight to four minutes whether you like it or not.
Purified Jam is literally the master ball from pokemon
zealous ridge
why does it still have a recipe for the overloaded sludge
hot zephyr
So good, but it's so limited in quantity you'll never actually use it
jovial spire
We're stretching this fight to four minutes whether you like it or not.
i mean it makes sense for night provi
hot zephyr
Night providence is weird
jovial spire
it's meant to be difficult no matter what part in the game you're in
zealous ridge
night provi is hardly a good idea either
sand umbra
night Provi gets an exception on account of I'm pretty sure she needs that to be difficult
hot zephyr
sun lord
zealous ridge
DEATH
sand umbra
(why is night Provi just the same boss but more instead of Provi but with a different attack roster and setup)
sand umbra
(oh wait that's because it'd be basically a new boss in levels of creativity and we all know that's not allowed)
zealous ridge
its EoL reference and day eol is a bad idea anyways imo
hot zephyr
Night providence is called "Oh, your day providence fight went too long? Let's switch it over to a harder version"
zealous ridge
its literally EoL though
sand umbra
EoL instagibbing during the day makes sense at least
night Provi is just
what
why is Provi stronger at night
zealous ridge
like i have absolutely NO doubts that her existence with a different phase at opposite time is what made this shitty half baked idea
sand umbra
if anything shouldn't she be weaker in the night due to the distinct lack of sun
zealous ridge
it breaks the ml-prov dichotomy as well
hot zephyr
it's called "EoL is cool, stop asking questions -devs"
zealous ridge
bc ml inflicts nightwither now, hes more of a counterpart
except, night provi inflicts nightwither now
so what is it?
sand umbra
it's
"EoL is cool stop asking questions
-the devs"
zealous ridge
she isnt cool
hot zephyr
i think night providence is fine, it just shouldn't automatically switch if you've fought 95% of the fight at daytime
hot zephyr
Literally my last few Providence runs have always ended with her switching to night in the last 5%
sand umbra
her enrage is kinda wacky gameplay-wise
zealous ridge
that entire concept is dumb to me
sand umbra
although it does make sense
hot zephyr
the 1.4 bosses do kinda be funky tho 🥺
sand umbra
correction EoL is funky
QS is bad
now enough of this derailing THERE'S SUGGS TO BE HAD
zealous ridge
but if people would at least be ok with the idea then i want it to be not providence but nightwither
sand umbra
(I tried it a while ago, maybe people have come around to the concept since then)
zealous ridge
i mean, fuck
i think it would make sense
but i want my BE NE facetank on SKELETRON 
thats probably the specific reason people like it not being post sg
sand umbra
Skeletron is stunlock king anyway get outta here
zealous ridge
well ok not facetank
hot zephyr
le hook has arrived
zealous ridge
but at least use
sand umbra
your filthy melee options do not work in the bone zone
(and certainly not in Calamity with teleporting jazz hands)
hot zephyr
laughs in Crimson Crusher Blade taking up half the screen
sand umbra
Crusher Blades 
zealous ridge
i mean there is flasks right
hot zephyr
Only poison and fire
zealous ridge
or would imbuing not work pre-qb
ah, are there not blood orb recipes for uh
the evil flasks
yea, seems there arent
sand umbra
flasks can't be crafted with Blood Orbs
zealous ridge
idk why abyssal brew is special then
sand umbra
Calamitas' Brew is an exception because idfk
hot zephyr
Why do most bosses resist literally every debuff that isn't like... ichor
sand umbra
Why do most bosses resist literally every debuff that isn't like... ichor
I see you've been enlightened to the meme that is debuff resists in Calamity
zealous ridge
"it has to be useful bc it reduces defense"
not even in calamity
just in the entire fucking game
sand umbra
also known as "there are exactly two on-tier debuffs that work against me, get destroyed"
oh don't come at me with that Chozo
hot zephyr
Remove all boss debuff resistances unless absolutely necessary
tawny garden
Why do most bosses resist literally every debuff that isn't like... ichor
oooh boy
sand umbra
vanilla doesn't have half as many resists as Calamity does, not by a mile
hot zephyr
Thomas is right
tawny garden
Thomas ranted about this multiple times on my memory
zealous ridge
well i mean, its still a bit acinine what debuffs enemies are immune to
for some reason they try to assign a logic to it
i agree its not nearly as bad
sand umbra
WELL YEAH BECAUSE THAT'S--
tawny garden
each time for longer than 1.5 hours
pine star
Also, FOR SOME FUCKING REASON, Ana and Levi are NOT immune to poisoned, despite being immune to Armor Crunch, Shadowflame, Frostburn, and Cursed Inferno
sand umbra
I'm already getting pissed
hot zephyr
Fuck you, and your debuffs! Weapons are only supposed to be DPS tools, no added functionality allowed!
sharp prism
based
sand umbra
I am legitimately already infuriated and we've been having this conversation for literally a minute
what is wrong with me
zealous ridge
also im not exactly speaking about the 1.4 debuff immunity changes, im considering immunities in 1.3
im sorry :[
pine star
i hope i did not throw jet fuel on a fire
sand umbra
yeah so am I
zealous ridge
i dont mean to incite blood rage
i know youve had this discussion a lot, so maybe it could move ?
sand umbra
applying logic to debuff immunities and vulnerabilities is infinitely better than just saying "fuck it, everything is worthless except these two on-tier debuffs that are half horrible (CI) and half the absolute end-all-be-all meta (Ichor)"
zealous ridge
oh im not arguing against that
sand umbra
vanilla does the former (though less so pre-1.4.1, I will hand you that), while Calamity does the latter
zealous ridge
i still think debuff shit in cal is ridiculous, dont misunderstand
hot zephyr
Remove every debuff immunity. Change my mind.
pine star
Remove every debuff immunity. Change my mind.
Cryogen being frozen intensifies
sand umbra
follow in vanilla's footsteps and make debuff immunities/vulnerabilities logically sound based on what the entity is
pls
pine star
Sugg that
sand umbra
wot
zealous ridge
did not mean to shit on the idea that cal doesnt do it as badly as vanilla
hot zephyr
Some bosses should have DEBUFF WEAKNESSES
hot zephyr
Where debuffs are more effective based on logic
zealous ridge
theres one example of this, actually?
doesnt providence take more damage from GSI
or is that psc thing
pine star
Where debuffs are *more* effective based on logic
yeah
Like On Fire vs Cryogen
hot zephyr
Exactly
sand umbra
/maniacally cackles in the corner
hot zephyr
Is it doc time?
pine star
YES
sand umbra
anywho
I've gone on this rambling long enough
tawny garden
On Fire vs Cryogen
pine star
It is doc time
hot zephyr
I can make the charts
zealous ridge
ive suggested debuffs having more effects in general, at least
sand umbra
what sugg are we talking about we need to not get yelled at by mods
pine star
> On Fire vs Cryogen
Note: you can actually afflict Cryogen with On Fire
sand umbra
actually you know what
zealous ridge
its ok NO ONE WILL YELL
sand umbra
fuck it
PGel in NE/BE repasta
zealous ridge
make a doc for it
hot zephyr
Didn't we start on frog leg?
zealous ridge
ok nice
tawny garden
make a sugg yes
zealous ridge
yea
pine star
Didn't we start on frog leg?
yes
tawny garden
Didn't we start on frog leg?
we did
hot zephyr
tangent 100
sharp prism
mmm myes frog
zealous ridge
simply the flow of conversation my friend
tawny garden
I asked whether it's useful or not
this is what we're on so far
pine star
yep
tawny garden
sharp prism
frog leg should show its jump boost though
pine star
This is how it always goes in Sugg discussion
zealous ridge
if anything im grateful bc we got more ideas out
sharp prism
it makes sense
pine star
frog leg should show its jump boost though
yep
pine star
if anything im grateful bc we got more ideas out
byeah
sand umbra
tawny garden
cool
zealous ridge
quick question this didnt reach star req right?
you mentioned making a sugg earlier
sharp prism
it fits with the rest
zealous ridge
but not exactly specified if it passe or just wasnt popular w devs
sand umbra
it never passed, from what I recall
because people are gonna go "muh options for SG"
and to that I say fuck your options. proper melee weapons don't even work on SG anyway
and then because they're not post-SG they're actually worthless on WoF
pine star
Arguably?
sharp prism
you could add to the sugg to make carnage also only drop post skele
pine star
Wind Blade is just straight up safer
zealous ridge
well anything is arguable
pine star
As is funny pufferfish bol
sharp prism
post sg*
zealous ridge
but yes, my point is fugu and windblade are both safer
geletic as well
or anything that isnt melee
weak field
Night's edge is just
sand umbra
you could add to the sugg to make carnage also only drop post skele
Carnage can melt in an acid bath for all I care
weak field
Besides the symbolic meaning you have no reason to craft it
sand umbra
move that thing's functionality to Bloody Edge
sand umbra
Ah yes the eternal battle of breaker blade and night's edge
Breaker Blade wins
sharp prism
Carnage is good for true melee
sand umbra
its reward is irrelevancy because 1.4 flails are the new kings anyway
and as such Sunfury trumps all else
zealous ridge
nice like 5 edits
weak field
True melee should at least get something more interesting than just sticks that deal more damage
zealous ridge
sand umbra
flails are melee weapons
like, proper melee weapons
don't let Calamity's backwards "true melee" logic for flails tell you otherwise
weak field
I was playing AA recently and most of their prehardmode melee weapons are just the same thing but with slightly different stats
Night's edge is like that, it has nothing unique
sharp prism
thats AA not calam
weak field
I know but it better demonstrates the point
sand umbra
AA is an awful frame of reference
zealous ridge
really is
sand umbra
just the worst possible base
(and somehow that ends up proving your point even better)
weak field
It's the worst possible base because the weapons are all just not interesting enough
The progression prehardmode for melee is just bigger weapons for more damage
sand umbra
anywho so back to why NE/BE should be post-SG
"true melee" i.e. melee as a concept doesn't work on SG
which means NE and BE are fundamentally irrelevant
and then it sure as hell doesn't work on Rev+ WoF either so they're just dead in the water
weak field
So you're going to move NE/BE post SG and add projectiles to them?
hot zephyr
alright tbf though, carnage is great against hungries
weak field
Or whatever else you have in mind to solve the irrelevancy?
sand umbra
don't shove words down my throat thank you
pine star
Not the projectile adding
sand umbra
I can't give specifics. not in the sugg
weak field
Well I just want to know what do you have in mind
hot zephyr
If NE/BE functioned more like carnage, with NE being a DPS variant and BE being just carnage but not RNG that'd be hot
sand umbra
personally I'd make the bosses actually respect melee as a concept instead of pretending it's just another projectile class with a niche subcategory
hot zephyr
Tbh
The only problem is with true melee
Flails, yoyos are viable
Projectile swords are viable
sand umbra
flails are viable in 1.4 because 1.4 flails are god
hot zephyr
True melee isn't
sand umbra
yo-yos aren't melee weapons don't @ me
weak field
So you want to eventually rework the bosses instead to suit melee better?
sand umbra
projectile swords are just basic bitch mage weapons but again but no mana
hot zephyr
Are guns just basic bitch mage weapons but with ammo? Are summons just guns with legs?
hot zephyr
Exactly
pine star
@ Thomas
hot zephyr
Nobody wants to use true melee because the game evolved past it
sand umbra
all of the viable stuff
it's all ranged
hot zephyr
That's why we have projectile melee
sand umbra
Terraria was never designed with melee as a concept in mind, see
weak field
You either slap a projectile onto a sword or try to make do with the short range somehow
hot zephyr
That's why we have yoyos, flails
sand umbra
no, yo-yos are a marketing pitch
hot zephyr
So why rework the entire game to fit a niche subclass that'd have unintended effects elsewhere
weak field
Or rework the bosses entirely to give some respect to true melee and not just haha deathray go brrr
sand umbra
because "true melee" isn't a subclass I've explained this at fucking length in this channel
hot zephyr
Bosses will never respect true-melee
sand umbra
it's what melee is supposed to goddamn be
hot zephyr
It'll never be
sand umbra
if you don't want "true" melee to be viable don't blatantly put a fucking melee-oriented class in your game
it's that simple
hot zephyr
Melee is Terraria's best class
hot zephyr
It's got variety
weak field
Please enlighten me of how melee can be better then
All other classes have range, and true melee doesn't
sand umbra
variety is a load of bullshit when none of that variety means anything to the class
pine star
dynamite will explode in 5
sharp prism
Melee is Terraria's best class
melee is only fun when tanking, its still a good class though
sand umbra
melee can be better by bosses actually respecting the fact that it exists
would also allow close-range magic/thrown/rogue weapons to be actually possible to design without wanting to kill oneself balancing them
hot zephyr
Changing bosses around melee will just make ranged classes already better then they are now
sharp prism
if you want variety mage has the most variety in general
hot zephyr
We live on a two dimensional plane, being able to put distance between yourself and the threat will literally always be better than some better DPS
sand umbra
...okay this just isn't fucking possible
no I'm not having this argument for like the tenth time
some people just never will think outside that box
and you know what?
that's fine
hot zephyr
Use specifics, then.
Or compile your thoughts into a document so you don't have to repeat yourself
sand umbra
Ian you're just going to give me the same tired bullshit again even if I explain it through a document
because at the end of the day, nobody here actually cares
hot zephyr
Now you're just making assumptions
sand umbra
no I'm not
we have had this song and dance before
I have been fighting this battle for months
I'm done
I'm not doing it anymore
pine star
I do care
sand umbra
am I being hypocritical? probably. I don't care though
at the end of the day it doesn't matter
nothing significant will come of it
not now, not ever
hardy dock
OMG what did I walk into
weak field
Well, game design time
On a 2d plane you either get closer to the enemy as melee, or run away as every other class
Run away has the advantage of getting hit less, and because there're more classes that want to run away instead of get closer, bosses are designed with projectiles and less respect to melee
And if you do design them to match melee, that being maybe maintaining less distance to the player so they can actually hit them, the ranged class will always have a better advantage
In a game where you're supposed to dodge, having more range is always better
sand umbra
which is why you
give the boss a way to counter putting 5 miles of distance between yourself and it
this is not rocket science
pine star
OMG what did I walk into
You walked into a nuclear explosionpassionate debate
sand umbra
I don't get it
why is the concept of a boss actually punishing or otherwise disallowing going 5 miles away from it foreign to everyone I speak to here
hardy dock
With 4 paragraphs
hot zephyr
That's a good point, Thomas. Have something like Bumble's enrage mechanic
weak field
Yes, and you do it, either with giving the boss projectiles, or making the boss get closer to the player when they're further away
So the boss tries to get closer but not further
hardy dock
Most post-ML bosses punish you for going to too far
sand umbra
Yes, and you do it, either with giving the boss projectiles, or making the boss ...
or
give the boss something specific that happens if you get further away from it too much
Provi does not do either of these things and Holy Inferno is the beautiful masterpiece of a result
hot zephyr
The hard part isn't "discouraging ranged playstyles", it's encouraging true melee in this environment
sand umbra
the only thing it needs is a clear indicator of when the hell it actually starts 
hardy dock
DoG teleports, and Yharon and Scal have walls
hot zephyr
Providence's blindness needs to change ASAP
sand umbra
encouraging true melee is a harder problem given that most bosses, especially those of Calamity, are designed around the delusion that melee is a projectile-based class
eternal escarp
walls for Scal dont help melee afaik, since scal is pin pointed at a distance from you, isnt she?
sand umbra
which shouldn't be the case ideally but as long as this channel exists there will never be an ideal world where that's the case
weak field
Or well, they're designed around the assumption that the player will want to go further and not closer
sand umbra
yeah
hardy dock
walls for Scal dont help melee afaik, since scal is pin pointed at a distance fr...
She’s close enough that Murasama and Phaseslayer can sometimes get a clean hit
eternal escarp
oh, good to know lol
sand umbra
i.e. the idea that melee is projectile-based and thus you can run away like a scared little bitch anyway
hardy dock
Murasama is actually incredibly good against Scal with a proper build
hot zephyr
What're your ideas to make melee playstyles more viable?
weak field
Somebody tried to counter that by making bosses slower and have alternate patterns when you're holding a melee weapon
hardy dock
That sounds like a pain
hot zephyr
Somebody tried to counter that by making bosses slower and have alternate patter...
That's a terrible idea
eternal escarp
not terrible, but itll break multiplayer with multiple people with multiple classes
hot zephyr
It's terrible.
sand umbra
which is that getting close to these bosses is a death sentence because of their heavy usage of projectiles
rather than their speed or patterns
hardy dock
It would be a nightmare to program
eternal escarp
sounds like a doozy to integrate properly to single aswell
sand umbra
it's an appreciable concept but it doesn't quite get the reason melee as a concept isn't a viable playstyle
hardy dock
How would it transition?
hot zephyr
Bosses in Terraria, and Calamity in particular need more defined phases other than just projectiles 24/7 so melee has a chance to get up close.
sand umbra
^
pine star
^^^^
hot zephyr
That is something that's feasible
sand umbra
there has to be a clear-cut opportunity to get in close and deal some big damage
hot zephyr
For exmaple, Brimmy does it nicely with her laser phase.
eternal escarp
doesnt OD have something like that, where he gets tired letting some good melee attacks?
weak field
So the playstyle you have in mind is to wait afar until the projectile barrage ends, and you get closer to do some damage, and then run away?
sand umbra
Brimmy laser phase works decently enough if you can lead it
pine star
doesnt OD have something like that, where he gets tired letting some good melee ...
yeah
weak field
Yeah case in point, OD
sand umbra
OD is incredibly accepting of a melee playstyle just by design
hardy dock
Who is OD again?
eternal escarp
the problem is only that its hard to hear OD breathing while he does get tired
hot zephyr
Old Duke
weak field
Old Duke
eternal escarp
Old Duke
hardy dock
Ah yes
hot zephyr
OD needs a visual que
sand umbra
it is no less viable to get in there while he exhausted and beat the fuck out of him with a melee weapon than to do so with any other weapon
hardy dock
The worst boss in the game
sand umbra
that is brilliant, if you ask me
eternal escarp
well not yawn, but maybe like, a faint? or a diffrent, tired roar?
hot zephyr
It's also niche, but if you're in multiplayer, if you manage aggro you can abuse the Twin's slow phases for true melee
eternal escarp
yeah true
sand umbra
mm
hot zephyr
Aggro needs a big rework in general tbh
1.4 does it nicely with the new aggro accessories
weak field
Aggro in terraria more like
pine star
byeah
weak field
:void:
Aggro does literally nothing in single player and still doesn't do much in multiplayer until endgame
hot zephyr
There was a suggestion earlier about adding new accessories for aggro management but :sigh:
hardy dock
He’s not tired for nearly long enough
hardy dock
He sits still for like a second at most
weak field
Add an aggro meter so you know who the boss is currently targetting
Don't kill me please that was a joke
hot zephyr
Another thing to help true melee weapons out would be to let all true melee weapons give moonwalk
eternal escarp
tbh, giving the targeted players a que
hardy dock
Pls yes
hot zephyr
aka being able to walk and swing in different directions
eternal escarp
is a wonderfull idea
hardy dock
I love moonwalk
eternal escarp
showing the player that he is being targeted is great
pine star
Add a moonwalk toggle item?
eternal escarp
maybe like, a mark above him or even a chat message lmao
pine star
Like an item, where when it is favourited, all melee weapons moonwalk
hot zephyr
All melee weapons should have moonwalk by default.
There's no reason not to have it.
Other than to fuck true melee over
"Oh you wanted to backpedal? Enjoy not dealing any damage"
sharp prism
Like an item, where when it is favourited, all melee weapons moonwalk
item.useTurn = false; its a thing in the code for a melee weapon to moonwalk
it defaults to false
eternal escarp
maybe make just
make the weapon swing to the side your mouse aims?
if your mouse is on the right hand side
it swings right
hot zephyr
that's moonwalk
hot zephyr
I want to be able to swing my sword to the right while walking to the left
eternal escarp
tbh it doesnt hurt anyone tbh
hot zephyr
Projectile melee, yoyos, flails, hell even spears I think have it
sharp prism
in Hage Mod the true melee ver of hage sword has moonwalk on where the projtile one doesnt
pine star
Wait
weak field
But it's incredibly frustrating to have to let go of m1 to switch swing direction
pine star
1.3 shortswords can moonwalk?
eternal escarp
1.3 shortswords can moonwalk?
1.3 not sure, 1.4 can
sharp prism
maybe?
pine star
oh
hot zephyr
@sand umbra How's this suggestion, as a start?
eternal escarp
ill test shortswords, im opening tmox anyways
sand umbra
seems good
sharp prism
```item.useTurn = false;``` its a thing in the code for a melee weapon to moonwa...
byeah its not hard to add to true melee swords
hot zephyr
I don't think true melee can gain viability overnight, but if we keep creating small suggestions we'll eventually win through attrition.
sand umbra
if you think it can be done, I can lend my assistance
hot zephyr
First step is giving more true melee weapons utility to encourage weapon mixing, along with stripping bosses of their debuff resistances
Since like... half of true melee weapons gimmicks are dealing debuffs
sand umbra
but I've been fighting for months just to get people to see it as a proper definition of melee and not just "haha funny subclass lol meme get outta here"
or maybe people have seen it as that for a while and I've just been too used to people not getting it to realize
pine star
🤷♂️
hot zephyr
The problem, I think, is that pushing for huge sweeping changes immediately is just hard to conceptualize. Pushing for small things over time will fare better.
hot zephyr
You've got the ideas, the problem is selling them.
pine star
byeah
We have to frame these ideas better
So people would be more willing to accept them
hot zephyr
Broad suggestions aren't really viable, but small suggestions are easy to sell.
hot zephyr
Slowly but surely, aspect by aspect, boss by boss, we can get there.
weak field
And this is how 3 people in discussions started their journey to take over the world
eternal escarp
tbh making the real melee viable is just what should happen
hot zephyr
We just need to work as a group to slowly push out changes
pine star
tbh making the real melee viable is just what should happen
this is true melee
hot zephyr
1.5 will be a start, with the facetank changes
eternal escarp
swords with projectiles shouldnt exist so goddamn commonly
eternal escarp
this is true melee
yeah ik
pine star
swords with projectiles shouldnt exist so goddamn commonly
yep
eternal escarp
swords with projectiles shouldnt exist so goddamn commonly
if it happened once or twice, id be fine, but god damn endgame its just magic weapons + sword hitbox in once
hot zephyr
Projectile melee is just easier to use; I don't fault the weapons
It's also a lot easier to work into the game
eternal escarp
it is easier, yes, but it just doesnt feel like melee at all
pine star
The others aren't too bad
eternal escarp
which is why weapons with on hit are miles better imo, better as in theme
hot zephyr
AotC is such a weird hyperfixation of the community because there's a thousand different projectile swords, what makes this one the most controversial
hot zephyr
Ark of the Cosmos
eternal escarp
ah
sand umbra
the Ark of the Cosmos is everything wrong with projectile melee at once cranked up to 11 and I despise it with every fiber of my being >:(
we've been over this I thought
eternal escarp
its just starfury + enchanted sword?
pine star
No
eternal escarp
oh, woops
sand umbra
Cosmos is the post-Yharon finale to that line and the Biome Blade line
eternal escarp
wrong search on wiki 😅
hot zephyr
AotC rework is something that'll eventually happen, I'm sure of it
sand umbra
I hope it is
hot zephyr
It's not an if, it's a when.
eternal escarp
ah yeah, im seeing this weapon now
pine star
Ark of the Cosmos is:
-Medium-high damage
-Barrage with high speed
-Very fast
-Homing
-Buttload of debuffs
That is why everyone hates it
eternal escarp
tbh the sword doesnt even need to exist for weapons like this
sand umbra
it is the epitome of "use this weapon it is good it is better than everything else"
hot zephyr
Thomas, if you look at the modern (acid rain-draedon's arsenal) melee weapons, they're heavily moving away from Generic Projectile Sword 1001230120312
pine star
yeah
eternal escarp
which is good
sand umbra
Thomas, if you look at the modern (acid rain-draedon's arsenal) melee weapons, t...
Basher sits in the corner
hot zephyr
So it makes sense that we'll slowly be seeing less and less of AoTC-esque weapons
sand umbra
Basher could use a gimmick I think
pine star
Basher sits in the corner <:ech:641680457649487902>
we don't talk about basher
sand umbra
not a projectile per se but a gimmick
eternal escarp
i mean, we can see they are trying
sand umbra
it's a little plain as it is right now
pine star
yeah
eternal escarp
to steer away from enchanted sword number 354165165
pine star
That said, it's a baseball bat and I don't know how to give it a gimmick that isn't "baseballs"
sand umbra
oh come on
hot zephyr
acid baseball
pine star
Or Casey from Enter the Gungeon
sand umbra
it's the easiest Gungeon reference in the book
hot zephyr
true melee reflecting projectile? 🥺
eternal escarp
god id love a gungeon refrence like that
pine star
yeah
sand umbra
allowing it to charge each swing, with a fully-charged swing able to reflect small physical projectiles, would be oustanding
eternal escarp
but maybe make basher a part of a casey later on, i think getting casey that early seems too powerfull
hot zephyr
being able to use a weapon defensively will make it like... A tier overnight
eternal escarp
^
hazy creek
isn’t there a mirror blade? or is that a different mod
pine star
^^^^
eternal escarp
making it maybe, a cooldown
hot zephyr
for better and for worse
sand umbra
being able to use a weapon defensively will make it like... A tier overnight
precisely!
nobody uses Basher right now
hot zephyr
Since you're basically making the weapon equivalent of the Counter Scarf which is kinda 
pine star
isn’t there a mirror blade? or is that a different mod
Mirror Blade just adds enemy contact damage to its damage
sand umbra
no
eternal escarp
or make it that casey can only reflect a certain amount of projectiles at once
hazy creek
ohhhh ok
sand umbra
nothing can be as stupidly good as Counter Scarf
pine star
or make it that casey can only reflect a certain amount of projectiles at once
Or certain strength projectiles
eternal escarp
if it can reflect all projectiles all the time, it seems pretty broken imo
pine star
hits back scal hellblasts
sand umbra
also note how I said "small physical projectiles" specifically
hot zephyr
I think the charge to swing and a strong knockback mechanic would make it viable enough
Example?
sand umbra
(read: literally designed for Expert+ EoW)
eternal escarp
also note how I said "small physical projectiles" specifically
ah, my bad
hot zephyr
Isn't breaking EoW projectiles already possible?
sand umbra
I mean yeah but like you'd be able to hit them back at EoW
rather than just breakin' them
eternal escarp
breaking them with 1.4 flails is so easy tho
sand umbra
there's probably another main utility for this I can think of
hot zephyr
I'm not a good reference when it comes to rev EoW because I rarely play anything other than crimson
It's the better biome
eternal escarp
well lets say it can reflect the spit, the cursed flames can still hurt you, making the weapon great, but not over powered, which is great tbh
and ofc, EoW himself
sand umbra
byeah Vile Spits could be made to not explicitly break if hit by Basher specifically
discord please
send my messages
okay well that was dumb
eternal escarp
yeah i hate when it happens
pine star
that sucks
hot zephyr
Aren't there already projectile reflecting accessories in the game, or just for damage? If so, that's a point for Basher getting reworked because you could utilize that
eternal escarp
tbh a casey like weapon is great
pine star
Aren't there already projectile reflecting accessories in the game, or just for ...
iirc the only one is Daedalus set bonus
sand umbra
projectile reflecting accessores in the game barely exist
I think it's like
Daedalus set bonus on one specific class
eternal escarp
although i think making it a basher only is not the best, maybe make it have upgrades every once in a while?
hot zephyr
So lets bring it to Basher then
sand umbra
and also...Evolution I think?
hot zephyr
If it already exists, it'll be easier to code
zealous ridge
for brain isnt there the blood drop projectiles
eternal escarp
although i think making it a basher only is not the best, maybe make it have upg...
or atleast one, like blast barrel per say, so people can use this certain weapon atleast a decent chunk of early game
hot zephyr
The year is 2024, Thomas has evolved into Calamity dev and now we have a new subtype of melee weapons; bats.
zealous ridge
horrid
sand umbra
what I'm thinkin' is
it could be used to bat small physical projectiles/nemies at other enemies for big damage
Vile Spits if made to not explicitly break are one use case
you could probably go the extra mile and make it also possible to bat Creepers back at BoC for damage to both
Hive Blobs could be knocked into Hive Mind if for some reason you're using Basher that far into the game
eternal escarp
basher is post EoC , maybe another upgrade after WoF, so it can be viable for cryogen?
sand umbra
Discord why are you like this
pine star
idk why discord is like this
sand umbra
it keeps doin' funky shit to my messages what is this
eternal escarp
byeah, tl dr
hazy creek
how about higher damage projectiles have less of a chance to be reflected, and lower damage projectiles have a high chance of being reflected
eternal escarp
a casey like weapon would be grand
sand umbra
Quinea I don't think you understand it's not a chance
eternal escarp
how about higher damage projectiles have less of a chance to be reflected, and l...
RNG of you getting hit or not isnt good
sand umbra
it's a specific set of requirements for reflecting projectiles with a fully-charged Basher swing that I'm pitching here
zealous ridge
i dont think it should be able to have that much utility that late
sand umbra
Hive Blobs would be like the last significant use
eternal escarp
god is discord dying for some of you guys?
sand umbra
since past that it'd just do too little damage to be worthwhile in terms of DPS
eternal escarp
my discord is fine rn
hot zephyr
chance based projectile reflection is how you make the weapon irrelevant
sharp prism
discord tm
eternal escarp
yeah this aint pokemon, making it RNG = useless
sand umbra
RNG is only good in moderation
and you have to be careful about what you do and don't give RNG influence
hot zephyr
I'm not going to risk my adrenaline on a chance to deal a little damage, especially when better options already exist
hot zephyr
RNG weapons are shit
zealous ridge
it depends on if you consider being close to a projectile being hit by it
but i agree, for this case, nah
should reflect weaker projectiles
eternal escarp
it depends on if you consider being close to a projectile being hit by it
mostly trying to reflect the proj, youd try getting as close to it
if its RNG
and u loose the RNG
zealous ridge
which should be implied by size or when its seen
eternal escarp
u 99% get hit
zealous ridge
hard to say
eternal escarp
which should be implied by size or when its seen
yeah, thats why only certain proj get deflected and some not
zealous ridge
weapons have range, seperate from touching the proj
eternal escarp
it depends on the proj, either 100% or 0%
zealous ridge
like, im imagining a situation where you're adjacent to a projectile rather than directly in front of it
eternal escarp
i mean it can happen
zealous ridge
this is especially possible in eow
eternal escarp
but relying on reflecting, ill 100% just go straight into the proj
zealous ridge
slow, easy to predict movement
zealous ridge
it would
eternal escarp
since ud have to be perfectly alligned to ensure you dont get hit either way
zealous ridge
consistency is always better in this case
eternal escarp
^
pine star
consistency is always better in this case
Yes
eternal escarp
RNG of getting hit or not when its not your fault is stupid for games like this, its not like RNG of afflicting a debuff
eternal escarp
i hate feral bite
thats why i hate it
its just random to the point its unfair
thank god no boss fight inflicts it in calamity afaik
hazy creek
what if the sword highlighted which projectiles could be reflected so that you always know what you can reflect and what you have to dodge
sand umbra
Feral Bite is a fuck
eternal escarp
what if the sword highlighted which projectiles could be reflected so that you a...
i mean, you can see with your eyes
lets say
all proj smaller then the basher (with some exeptions ill guess) that are only solid-ish, can be reflected
sand umbra
you could always add a Basher symbol above reflectible projectiles/enemies while holding the bat, hypothetically speaking
zealous ridge
(also old duke inflicts feral)
eternal escarp
aka, water from cnidrion, as an example, wont be reflected.
zealous ridge
that might be annoying
i think it could be highlighted green if it's near enough to you
sand umbra
Cnid water is an example of one that can't be hit back, yes
eternal escarp
highlighting is a nice idea tbh, but i have no idea if its possible to code
zealous ridge
i think it would be
eternal escarp
dont think weve seen anything like this, unless the summoner targeting somewhat counts?
zealous ridge
if you can apply an indicator to a proj you can tie a particle effect
eternal escarp
huh
zealous ridge
i mean, hunter ?
eternal escarp
but instead of highlighting it with orange, it should have an outline tbh
zealous ridge
could be a shader
eternal escarp
sinec hunter and dangersense have shitty highlighint alot of times
zealous ridge
for instance, glow on treasure bags in 1.4
eternal escarp
could be a shader
sometimes the shaders make the proj basically invisible
eternal escarp
for instance, glow on treasure bags in 1.4
yeye, thatll work better
hazy creek
yeah, cause certain projectiles have vastly different colors and it might be hard to see the highlight
zealous ridge
yea actually i dont know what shader means in context so forget i said that
i meant like, the treasure bag highlight
eternal escarp
prty sure bags dont have a shader, ill check
hazy creek
ohhh the purple border around it
zealous ridge
in 1.4, they have this wavering purple effect
hazy creek
you can see it on maps too
zealous ridge
idk if its called a shader though
eternal escarp
prty sure its just an outline of sorts
or, as you said, an effect
i mean an item and a projectile are both entities, right? so im guessing both can have the same sort of thing
sand umbra
give or take a few minutes
zealous ridge
if the bot is broken it may need to be sent by an admin
sand umbra
the bot appears to be online
zealous ridge
ikr it can feel like so long
pine star
yeah
sand umbra
cool bug fact's: Eternity Mode was renamed after how long it feels like it takes to get a sugg from posting into voting
you can trust me my friend works at Fargo's
pine star
Why am I so angry at something I agree with?
zealous ridge
i was thinking for a second and i wanted to ask here
would it be fucked for a worm boss to lose its all debuff immunities on specifically its head and or tail?
like, i know their segments are meant to be debuff immune, that makes sense because it can stack very easily
but like, just one or two segments
kind of thinking of a suggestion about it
frozen storm
Are ypu thinking about DoG?
frozen storm
Deus isnt immune to Yanmei's Knive
zealous ridge
also ds
well most things arent, yeah
not even worms are immune to it usually
alongside enraged and claps
bc claps is ridiculous
zealous ridge
no idea
frozen storm
She isnt immune to it
zealous ridge
but i would not be surprised bc its free dmg with no resistance
it sounds like it would be inconsequential
its only like 100 dps at that point
basically useless
625 with 5 on an enemy
which would be 10 whole minion slots
not worth it, from what i can tell
its just a meme because otherwise the minion would just despawn if it attempted to attach to an enemy that was immune
regardless, i just wonder how removing some immunities in that way would work for worms
head or tail are only able to be afflicted by debuffs
body is basically immune
zenith hazel
tawny garden
#suggestions-voting message
this sugg shows that having bad grammar and not being completely clear does not impede your idea getting to devs and being implemented
unless it was an instant flag in which case don't mind me
sharp prism
lmao
a sugg doesnt have to be long it just has to be to the point and explain the idea well