yea if u have problems with multi balance you can adjust stats through config
#suggestions-discussion
zealous ridge
ashen warren
ok thanks, I forgot there were configs for those
terse sundial
aren't RIVs being retired soon
radiant meadow
I have no idea what's happening with 'em
earnest cape
pearl god :traumatized:
ashen warren
NOO ARBALEST
serene fox
worth it
sturdy geyser
I will not mourn
earnest cape
I guess omega's words are happening
ashen warren
earnest cape
arbalest is going to brazil
earnest cape
NOOOOOOOOOOOO
proper grail
And Void Vortex . . .
earnest cape
isn't sea's searing a legendary weapon tho
serene fox
oh right
foggy plover
oh thank god
sturdy geyser
well
sturdy geyser
you can always make them into normal weapons
earnest cape
perhaps
serene fox
do legends also die btw
whole sedge
as i think they have said they have future plans for legendaries that means they're not being removed 
sturdy geyser
i made cool suggestion to make them be obtained epic style except wait i didn't i gave feedzuh the idea but then he suggested it
also legendaries but they are focused on unique/more complex gimmicks to set them apart instead of big number go brrrrr
simple fog
legendaries are staying afaik
earnest cape
pog
foggy plover
legendaries are fine, they have some identity (besides, that one sug about making them have different obtainment methods got passed)
ashen warren
besides CD
serene fox
what about cd?
sturdy geyser
legendaries are fine, they have some identity (besides, that one sug about makin...
yea i was talking about that earlier
sturdy geyser
whats CD?
foggy plover
cosmic discharge
sturdy geyser
oh ok
serene fox
oh I thought you meant cold divinity
sturdy geyser
i thought it was chill dude š
earnest cape
what's cosmic discharge
foggy plover
FUCK
ashen warren
LOL
earnest cape
bad weapon is what it is
foggy plover
theres 2 with CD abbreviation??
serene fox
h
sturdy geyser
yes
ashen warren
cold divinity and cosmic discharge yeah
foggy plover
CD role, me, cosmic, cold divinity
earnest cape
perhaps
foggy plover
ashen warren
sturdy geyser
sad
earnest cape
damn
sturdy geyser
<:despair:787093347176022046>
it looks like a frog
foggy plover
fuck this isnt general back to suggestions
sturdy geyser
okay should i make a suggestion about having legendaries stand out through interesting gimmicks instead of higher dps
simple fog
CD1 and CD2, based on progression
foggy plover
they sorta already do besides a couple imo
earnest cape
which one is CD1 and which one is CD2 
ashen warren
(based on progression)
earnest cape
uh cold divinity cd1 and discharge cd2?
ashen warren
ye
earnest cape
terse sundial
smh by retired I mean there won't be any more of them, not the they're going to Brazil
tawny garden
foggy plover
good enough for this case/suggestions
more summoner weapons always good, don't need to be RiVs
cobalt pewter
~~smh by retired I mean there won't be any more of them, not the they're going t...
Bruh
serene fox
sad
terse sundial
Arbruhlest lives for another day
serene fox
grrrrrr
wheat cargo
Can we get a roleplay channel for the discord?
tawny garden
oh god
dapper coral
no.
wheat cargo
damn
zealous ridge
still think RIVs as an idea do be kind of wacky doe
what if
arbalest was just a weapon
in stead of rare item variant
it was just item
zealous ridge
would hardly be a variant lol
tawny garden
zealous ridge
it is not similar at all to raiders outside of being a crossbow really
tawny garden
still think RIVs as an idea do be kind of wacky doe
thing is
so are a lot of other ideas in the mod/game
zealous ridge
well i could go the fuck on about that all day and we dont want to be here all day would we
there are many dumb ideas in this mod
most mods have them
tawny garden
and I don't think RIVs are the worst
zealous ridge
its not even that i dislike the rivs some of them are actually fun
of course
they are far from the worst
i think the weapons are fun, i dont think they need their own rarity
well, some of the weapons
many of them are memes, as well
which i dont mind that much regardless
as long as theyre fun yknow
tawny garden
I don't understand the original intent behind them though
zealous ridge
well i dont think there was one
it was
fabsol plays borderlands and adds a funny feature from borderlands to the calamity modification
tawny garden
ah
are they supposed to be weapons that people grind for if they can't properly beat the game
tawny garden
completeonism
zealous ridge
not even that
Sometimes youāll just get Rivs when grinding for something else
or itās so piss easy to grind the foe that getting it is just logical
pearl god, for instance
A better Aires which you can get by grinding in the dungeon anyways
reaper is one of the best options for old duke and devourer
and in light of no better options or not having to invest in anything else people very often pick it up
just because something takes a little while or is a bit more difficult than doing whatās expected of you
Doesnāt mean that people will gravatite towards the option thatās faster to get
inherently, at least
reaper is good enough to justify the grinding
tawny garden
yeah, I saw it being used a lot
zealous ridge
because it will save you time in not learning how to use anything else and dying over and over
reaper isnāt even that interesting either I jsut
itās stupid weapon I dislike
itās not really a symptom generally of what I think is wrong with RIVs but
itās certainly a hallmark example of a weapon I hate the guts of
hot zephyr
RIVs don't fit well into Terraria because it isn't a looter shooter
hot zephyr
God I remember UVHM OP 10 where you were basically forced to grind out top spec legendaries
zealous ridge
thatās a different game I assume
lmao
Some of the Riv weapon concepts are fun, but itās all in the concept of RIVs as a mechanic that I dislike
fabsol enjoys implementing features from his favorite games in some capacity
itās why this is a mod filled with a million references
And sometimes itās fun
cobalt pewter
Reaper definitely is shit vs dog (at least on its stealth strikes), or Valediction is just dumb op
zealous ridge
and sometimes itās copy pasting subnautica monsters into a biome designed around that kind of gameplay when terraria is not at ALL designed with anything like what subnautica is going for in mind
fucking GHOST LEVIATHANS
Ok Iām good now
Reaper isnāt good on dog? Damn I remember everyone using it
Iām certain itās good on old duke
tawny garden
was a while ago
zealous ridge
mustāve been
dapper coral
reaper is very good for OD last i checked
cobalt pewter
Yeah Reaper is great on OD
I use in on stealth most of the time
With Time Bolt on tired OD and Wave Pounder for sharkrons
simple fog
Reaper is exceptionally well for OD, wave pounder stealth strike screen wipes, time bolt is.... unique, to say the least
zealous ridge
feedz you were talking about this sometime ago
cobalt pewter
I think so? Probably on Jaws
zealous ridge
Ah yes
cobalt pewter
Because yeah it doesn't work that well on stealth lmoa
zealous ridge
Thatās what it was
simple fog
Deepsea dumbbells are amusing on OD so long as you can aim
cobalt pewter
I hate using dumbbells just because you need to count
zealous ridge
Deep sea dumbbells are amusing in most situations
zealous ridge
make your friend play a funny sound every time he sees you flex
then he can tell you your flexes at the end
cobalt pewter
Or somewhat a visual indicator that you're at maximum flex
Kinda like omega blue armor when notifying that Abyssal Rampage Cooldown is off
zealous ridge
could make it a secondary sfx at max flex
like, flex after max buildup to make a grr sound
lol
cobalt pewter
grr
zealous ridge
yea heās angry
crude geode
I hate using dumbbells just because you need to count
bruh moment
I feel like ceaseless void might deserve a nerf tbfh
serene fox
it's a tad aggressive with larger arenas
crude geode
The swarms are really fucking painful on smaller arenas
(Nice pfp)
serene fox
thanks
crude geode
The problem I have is that unless you have an arena the size of a football field, Dark Energies will easily swarm and kill you (especially in Deathmode). 24 is just way too many.
serene fox
even with a larger arena, they're really fucking aggressive
serene fox
(woah cv is an actual boss now)
cobalt pewter
They can be a bit funky
Though the design does want you to make football field arenas
That with the spinning energies
Which are essentially area denial
crude geode
Then you want a smaller arena for polterghast, so you want two arenas in the dungeon.
cobalt pewter
You want a smaller arenas? I always find that you'd still benefit off large arenas due to the funky bouncy projectiles fucking you up less
crude geode
I find Ceaseless Void to be pretty unfun in Deathmode on multiplayer tbh, as I can kinda see how circling is meant to work against the Dark Energies, but sometimes theyāll just target a different person.
crude geode
Iām complaining mainly Bc me and my friends have beaten polter before Ceaseless Void, because we can actually tell how to dodge Polterghast, but dodging Ceaseless Voidās dark energies feels like a headache.
cold cosmos
Honestly ceaseless void is really easy for me
I dunno why
Usually the order of sentinels for me goes Weaver, Void, Signus
Signus is the fucking worst
cobalt pewter
Signus is my personal favorite boye
crude geode
Signus is a fair fight once you actually learn him.
Ceaseless, currently, is not. At least in multiplayer.
distant vault
neither is storm weaver because of lightning orbs
crude geode
Lightning orbs behavior is pretty predictable. I would prefer if they had an indicator before they spawned in, so you could avoid the instant damage.
gray nebula
jus remove rivs lol š (or i mean turn them into sidegrades that arent just funny rare drop chance)
cobalt pewter
Yes
crude geode
that would be nice, like carnage style I think, if Iām using a decent example
Is there any actual balance reasoning for classes besides melee to have different armor values?
On all class armor sets.
cobalt pewter
Precedent from vanilla I guess?
crude geode
...if thatās the only reason, then fuck that noise
I can only understand melee having higher defense, nothing else.
tawny garden
iirc it was based on how tank-oriented/dodging-oriented the class is intended to be
dunno really
distant gyro
the closer you are the better your defense, generally
crude geode
the closer you are the better your defense, generally
Ah yes, ranged, my favorite close ranged class
distant gyro
I think that's the vanilla train of ideas
tawny garden
I can understand summoner having lower defense cause they can concentrate on dodging
distant gyro
except summoner requires you to be close to get aggro
tawny garden
yeah
distant gyro
rationale behind each classes in the head of relogic
crude geode
Can we fucking gut it then?
tawny garden
except summoner requires you to be close to get aggro
not in vanilla though, and vanilla left a legacy I guess
crude geode
It makes no sense and just arbitrarily means that ranged gets more armor.
distant gyro
melee - close up (not really in endgame)
ranger - ranger
mage - high damage so therefore low defense
summoner - just dodge
distant gyro
raven staff and stuff do have limited aggro range
distant gyro
from what I remember since it sucked at aggroing eol
crude geode
melee - close up (not really in endgame)
ranger - ranger
mage - high damage so t...
The problem I have with this is the fact that summoner already has to be closer to enemies in order to deal damage. Additionally, as Philo said, every class should be getting pretty equal dps. Itās the way the mod is balanced.
tawny garden
or the game*
crude geode
Overall, throughout the mod as a whole, classes are meant to be equal in power level. So why the split in defense?
distant gyro
when is the last time you saw something like this being mentioned
tawny garden
I thought about it, but I accepted it
crude geode
Never, Bc people accept it even tho the logic behind it is nonexistent.
tawny garden
as a norm
not strictly true, there is a bit of logic, but it's vague and not always true
the thing with defense though
if you have 4 extra defence, damage dealt to you gets reduced by 3
(except classic mode, where it's reduced by 2)
and compared to the actual damage dealt to you at mid-game or late-game
cobalt pewter
Rework defense pog
tawny garden
by the Fundamental Theorem of Engineering 3 ā 0
so defense can pretty much be ignored
distant gyro
increasing damage from enemies and increasing effectiveness of defense when going from normal to expert to master: Red's intentions are beyond your understanding
tranquil perch
its even more ironic when you consider that
tawny garden
tbh @crude geode if you wanna remove the discrepancy, remove it for every class, including melee
tranquil perch
defense is actually more effective on normal mode, relatively speaking
crude geode
my Hope is that it justifies gutting meleeās projectile vomit
tawny garden
it doesn't
tranquil perch
in expert, defense is 50% more effective, but most enemies and bosses deals 100% more damage
tawny garden
yeah
crude geode
I also would like to state that every wiki ever knows melee for having the highest defense, and I would just prefer that to stay the same and in some vain hope that ātrue meleeā overrides Meleeā¢ļø in a few decades
tawny garden
wiki?
crude geode
yeah, like on any class setups page you go to
tawny garden
ah
crude geode
Including calamityās
tawny garden
and in some vain hope that ātrue meleeā overrides Meleeā¢ļø in a few decades
IT DID!
for one update it did
earnest cape
that was short-lived I'm guessing?
tawny garden
but then for some godforsaken reason True Melee split from melee T H E N E X T U P D A T E
crude geode
Every AoTC Fanboy spoke up
tawny garden
I remember that Altix said that to me in #wiki-basic a week before the update was out
I was kinda pissed
distant gyro
tawny garden
Temp removed the pages from the category with his bot
and then he had to put it back
crude geode
Frankly I feel like Calamity needs to start accepting backlash from doing unpopular things that are healthy for the mod such as stomping AoTC into the ground and completely reworking it
Heart Rapier removal was unpopular, but it died out after a while, and overall was healthy.
crude geode
AoTC
cobalt pewter
AotC isn't melee
crude geode
Also every beam sword in existence
cobalt pewter
I've grown to neglect that abomination as melee
crude geode
Same, but Meleeā¢ļø is the primary example of melee curreently, like it or not. Someone ( @tawny garden ) wanted it gone but I at least wanted to acknowledge true melee partially and justify the higher defense. (Plus, someone can use this as an excuse to gut Meleeā¢ļø...maybe.)
AoTC is the reason why Meleeā¢ļø exists imo. That and Meowmere and Star Wrath.
ashen warren
crude geode
mhm
pine star
The main issue with AotC is that it's good at EVERYTHING
Fast homing piercing medium-high damage projectiles that inflict many debuffs intensify
distant gyro
except true melee
pine star
i guess so
crude geode
the main issue with AotC is that it betrays class identity
FTFY
pine star
No one would care about AotC betraying class identity if it sucked
crude geode
This is true
but it doesnāt, so that is indeed the problem
And people would riot if it wasnāt good
pine star
yeah
Personally, I think that the homing part of AotC should be yeeted
That, or its projectiles become very slow
crude geode
What? But then what will Melee use? They only have AoTC, Exoblade, Exo Gladius, Phaseslayer, Gaelās Greatsword, Oracle, Ataraxia, and Dragon Pow!
crude geode
~~shit I forgot one of the 9 melee Auric Tier Weapons ~~
crude geode
The amount of Auric Tier melee weapons disgusts me.
Really lessens the value of Auric Tesla bars when you make nine different weapons out of them, instead of say two or three.
crude geode
In addition to it being just...way too many when compared with any other class.
pine star
But Sense of Calmness is far too much
cobalt pewter
To be fair, I can't be mad at Oracle or Dragon Pow
Just because they're donor weapons doesn't mean they can't be yelled upon
We just need approval to shit on them
pine star
(ataraxia means sense of calmness)
crude geode
Just because they're donor weapons doesn't mean they can't be yelled upon
^
This needs to be remembered.
pine star
And the "I can't be mad" is because they're a flail and a yoyo
There is a bit of variety with those, unlike the 5 sword choices
crude geode
This is true.
tawny garden
~~shit I forgot one of the 9 melee Auric Tier Weapons <:HDfailure:48226367815077...
plot twist:
for all of the Sams out there, the weapon is around evil bosses tier
pine star
tranquil perch
for all of the Sams out there, the weapon is around evil bosses tier
Pre boss
tawny garden
yeah, but it's kinda difficult to traverse hell in your underpants only
sharp prism
lol
hardy dock
Thereās no reason to remove the class helmets
pine star
That's not what he meant
hardy dock
Ah defense differences
pine star
He meant that all class helmets apart from melee should give equal defense
hardy dock
Eh Iām not sure I agree with that either
The difference between even Ranger and Mage defense is pretty giant
jovial spire
not enough to make any sort of real difference
crystal iron
i kind of have a mixed opinion on this, cuz the damage is different at different points for each class so giving all armors for all classes equal defense would be kind of unbalanced cuz u could have idk, 100 defense for all classes but one class would deal 4000 dps while the other class would only deal 2000, so the one that deals less would need more defense to compenstae, i hope u get my point cuz idk how to explain it
compansate*
compensate*
and i think reworking all/most armor sets would be a bit time consuming
on the other hand tho i do think that theres little logic behinf the system cuz most weapons are ranged (unless your doing true melee) so the defese should techically be equal
by ranged i mean most weapons fire a projectile
and imo summoner having much less defense is stupid cuz summon ai can be dumb and u need to get close-ish fir them to attack and the damage can be weak sometimes
so technically summoner should have the most defense or at least more than, lets say ranged
the only reason they have so little defense is cuz of a stupid mechanic where summoners dont do anything
cerulean estuary
Summoner should have more defense than ranger
crystal iron
ye
cerulean estuary
Ranger is the class that needs it the least
crystal iron
ranger should have the elst technically cuz they have it the easiest
crystal iron
they have homing bullets all sorts of weapons and they can stay far away
cerulean estuary
But summoner should have more defense
crystal iron
ye summoner is a bad class no matter how u lok at it
look*
gameplay is boring, ai can be dumb and its pretty weak comparing to other classes, plus the defense
plusn u dont do anything other than dodging
plus the summoner nerf, theres just so many downsides to summoner
proper grail
It is literally run away the class
That just made me choke on my water so hard
hot zephyr
Mage and Ranger should have the least, Summoner and Rogue should have medium defense, and Melee should have the highest
pine star
yeah
sturdy geyser
i found summoner's dps to be quite good in cal
crystal iron
well thats one point against like 10
all the other classes have good dps
yet they are so much better in terms of gameplay
cerulean estuary
Cal summoner has pretty good dps
But it shouldn't be the on shafted defense wise
crystal iron
i found summon dps to be weaker than other classes
sturdy geyser
i agree, summoner is bad
crystal iron
and summoner is less practical as a class
cerulean estuary
I would be okay with summoner getting nerfed a bit while increasing the defense if it's op
crystal iron
wow thsat smth i didnt exccpect to hear
cerulean estuary
But it shouldn't be the glass canon
gray nebula
A lot of people play summoner because of how much out there it is compared to the other classes i mean
yeah its epic to control an army its nothing like the other classes
crystal iron
u cant really controill that army tho
sturdy geyser
whether people choose summoner is someone's choice, and not a good argument to make
gray nebula
yea and?
crystal iron
it just does its own thing
gray nebula
its actually one of the more popular classes just because of how different it is
sturdy geyser
and shit
gray nebula
when i see people asking "which class should i play" theres almsot always someone saying summoner exactly because of its quirkyness
š¤Ŗ
crystal iron
it is a different class sure but definately underdeveloped
gray nebula
not in calamity but sure
sturdy geyser
i really like to play summoner but i agree that summoner is bad but you aren't making good points
summoner has plenty of content in calamity
cerulean estuary
Summomer usually has to get close to things to deal damage with the summon ai. For most of the game it's close to melee. It shouldn't be the class that gets the short end of the stick defense wise
gray nebula
also i mean why do subclasses matter again
crystal iron
for variety
gray nebula
i honestly really dislike sentries and i dont find them very fun to use at all because of how limited they are
crystal iron
exactly they are limirted
sturdy geyser
summoner has two subclasses as of now, and as of 1.4 will have three
gray nebula
no i mean limited as in they suck because theyre not moving
not because theyre not enough options
crystal iron
whips only fix part of the problem
gray nebula
whips also suck because its not even summoner 
damn
would have been funny if you had to like whip your minions to make htem work instead
cerulean estuary
Whips are good imo, but only further summoners biggest problem
It has to get close
It isn't ranger who gets to run away the whole fight but get the second highest defense
gray nebula
also manual weapons for summoner like ok cool but thats just not summoner?
gray nebula
funny borealis bomber haha
crystal iron
i mean its a good concept
crystal iron
u can say the same thing bout most melee weapons too
gray nebula
ok but thats not the point tho 
crystal iron
it kind of is
gray nebula
haha its not a problem because other stuff shares the same problem
tranquil perch
shocked
cerulean estuary
Every time summoner gets anything that isn't a garbage ai it can't control people get mad it isn't really summoner
tranquil perch
summoner is a good class
tawny garden
@ashen warren wot
tawny garden
check the pins @ashen warren, you can't sugg that
sand umbra
Borealis Bomber is an attempt to make summoner not mind-numbingly boring to play iirc
cerulean estuary
Yeah because summoner sucks, that's why it needs a thing that isn't summoner half the time
sand umbra
same reason "classless" weapons (read: active summoner support weps in disguise) exist
ashen warren
i think a Jungle tyrant yharim fight is cool and then a creator xeroc fight
crystal iron
ye all people have opinins some might find summoner to be a good clasz but that doesnt mean it cant be expanded uopn rigjt
cerulean estuary
I love summoner in concept
sand umbra
Summoner is a decently expanded-upon class in Calamity
cerulean estuary
But it's just so bad mechanically in practice
crystal iron
ye asummoner in concept is a cool lass but in prcticality it has a lot of flaws
tawny garden
i think a Jungle tyrant yharim fight is cool and then a creator xeroc fight
there are suggestion rules here, that's not a valid suggestion
sand umbra
the fact, however, remains that it is incredibly disinteresting to actually play
tranquil perch
ye asummoner in concept is a cool lass but in prcticality it has a lot of flaws
for example..?
tawny garden
@zenith hazel kill the last thing pls
ashen warren
there are suggestion rules here, that's not a valid suggestion
such as
tawny garden
pins
crystal iron
i alreday said in my sugg why its impractical
sand umbra
please read the doc in pins
tawny garden
read them
ashen warren
read them
im sorry but a suggestion is an oppinion and thats mine i thinks its cool if the names of people mentioned in lore were added
h
cerulean estuary
Bruh
ashen warren
I'm sorry but you can forget about your opinion
neither does yours
tawny garden
at least that one doesn't
zenith hazel
alright let's not spiral this out of control please, ty
tranquil perch
i alreday said in my sugg why its impractical
- summoner Doesnt have low dps, you were probaly just using some shit equipment
- the least defense is not a very big problem in the big majority of cases, because you can either get more defense with warding, buffs or other accesories
- very few summon ai are actually really bad
there you go
thats why your suggestion is wrong
zenith hazel
just because a suggestion is an opinion doesn't mean it's valid 100% of the time
tranquil perch
tranquil perch
isnt there a rule about suggesting large scale reworks
tawny garden
yes
tranquil perch
tawny garden
was about to say, but was interrupted
crystal iron
1. summoner ***Doesnt*** have low dps, you were probaly just using some shit equ...
tnat doesnt explain why my sugg is bad that just proves some of my points wrong, also u can get warding with other classes too
ashen warren
isnt there a rule about suggesting large scale reworks
im not saying calamity has to add it
tranquil perch
"Low defense is okay just get warding"
you havent actually played summoner, have you?
i have
too much
tawny garden
you havent actually played summoner, have you?
<:ech:636958034748375042>
t'was sarcasm I think
crystal iron
cuz u like it, i like ranged but t cn be improved
cerulean estuary
Yes lock yourself into one reforge. In order to actually have more than 2 defense
ashen warren
imagine saying t'was in 2020
cerulean estuary
tranquil perch
tnat doesnt explain why my sugg is bad that just proves some of my points wrong,...
yes you can get warding as other classes, but i must stress that armor is not your only way to get survability
crystal iron
u cant deny the fact that summoner has flaws
tranquil perch
every class has flaws
cerulean estuary
Ranger moment
crystal iron
but summoner has the most flaws
ashen warren
alos low defense works since you dont have to worry about attacking and focus on dodging
I'd say melee is the most flawed one in Calamity
cerulean estuary
Ranger should have less defense and summoner should have more feel free to @ me
ashen warren
I'd say melee is the most flawed one in Calamity
exactly too much damage and loads of defense
tranquil perch
||@cerulean estuary ||
ashen warren
what
crystal iron
ok lets say all of my points were proven wrong, that doesnt mean that what i said, like for example referencing minion slots cant be added
tranquil perch
and so will be whips
zenith hazel
can you provide some examples as to how summoner has lower dps than some classes?
tranquil perch
ok lets say all of my points were proven wrong, that doesnt mean that what i sai...
minion slots can be added in many different ways. lore items, armor, accesories, buffs, for example.
^
if anything, it has higher dps
cerulean estuary
Where yeah it's basically a subclass
crystal iron
i already said that that point has been proven wring
zenith hazel
and also, summoner is practically the most braindead class because there's almost no aiming involved
then take that off your suggestion
tranquil perch
shocked i have a question
have you actually played summoner in calamity?
it doesnt seem like it
crystal iron
minion slots can be added in many different ways. lore items, armor, accesories,...
thats not what i meant, read my sugg again
i have played summoner thats why i made this sugg
cerulean estuary
I think summoner shouldn't be a braindead glass cannon
tranquil perch
no, summoner gets the most benefit out of classless weaons
becuase they dont have to ""stop attacking"" to get debuffs
cerulean estuary
If you want braindead cannon there's ranger
tranquil perch
ranger requires aiming
cerulean estuary
Also what classless are most important to summoner
crystal iron
thats why summoner doesnt get a buff when u use a classles weapon
tranquil perch
for the most part
cerulean estuary
chlorophyte go brrrrrrrr
tranquil perch
thats why summoner doesnt get a buff when u use a classles weapon
nor do other classes
tranquil perch
*chlorophyte go brrrrrrrr*
that kills your damage tho
cerulean estuary
Summoner doesn't get debuffed when using classless
crystal iron
ye cuz all other classes are better
tranquil perch
no
crystal iron
and dont need a damage buff
tranquil perch
you must have done something wrong
while playing summoner
cuz man
summoner has very high dps
crystal iron
i literally said 3 times
cerulean estuary
Yeah I'm on the same side of the argument as shocked and even I agree with photo hear
tranquil perch
provide example
tranquil perch
ok so now to the other point then
cerulean estuary
Shocked I'm trying my best to back you up but you aren't making it easy lmao
crystal iron
ur using solitons that buff all classes trather than summons itself as arguments
tranquil perch
delete this thing off of your suggestion then
it has weaker dps comparing to other classes
crystal iron
use warding to get mroe defense
classless weapons exist
othe accesories for survaviblity
all tose points dont solve the problem
cerulean estuary
Alright your wording is getting better
cerulean estuary
Things that are extra buffs to other classes shouldn't be necessary to summoner
tranquil perch
ur using solitons that buff all classes trather than summons itself as arguments
whips will eventually exist, so that isnt really necessary
besides, summoner isnt even meant to use a weapon besides summons, youre meant to see if ur summons are actually doing shit, if not, target them, if their ai happens to be trash, use a different summon
cerulean estuary
Classless weapons might as well be summon
crystal iron
isnt that a wack mechanic tho
tawny garden
why?
crystal iron
just dodging and hoping ur sumons actually do shit
tawny garden
yes
cerulean estuary
Can we just give summoner more defense?
tranquil perch
use warding to get mroe defense
classless weapons exist
othe accesories for surv...
the defense difference isnt as bad as you make it out to be
tawny garden
it's like 8 to 12 defense even at late game
tranquil perch
just dodging and hoping ur sumons actually do shit
thats what the class is built around
90% of the time, they do shit, very well, in fact
crystal iron
no
tranquil perch
when playing summoner
tawny garden
if you don't like only dodging, that doesn't mean the whole class shouldn't exist
crystal iron
i never said remove the class tjho
tranquil perch
summoner does deal damage, you were likely using bad accesories or armor, or just outdated weapons
cerulean estuary
I just want summoner to be a little less fragile, considering whips make it near true melee
crystal iron
i literally just deleted ythast -art of my sugg
u told me 4 TIMES to '
i undertsant ok
understand*
tranquil perch
ok, so back to the other point we were talking about
summon ai is often NOT wonky
tawny garden
i never said remove the class tjho
you're basically saying that
you just said that the main class mechanic is wacky
tranquil perch
and if it is wonky
you can just target
or use a diferenrt type of summon depending on the enemy
crystal iron
ok, ignore all the points that i have against summoner and take th9ings u could improve under consideiration
ok
cerulean estuary
all I wanted is summoner to be less squishy and it turned into a big debate about summoner at its core
tranquil perch
like i did for stormjaw staff, which didnt get noticed enough
crystal iron
ignore the part where i trash talk summoner and read the part where i suggest what u could improve, then tell me whats wrong with it
tranquil perch
yes the thing is
cerulean estuary
Whips are more reason for summoner to have better defense
weak field
Philo are you yelling at them already?
tranquil perch
Whips are more reason for summoner to have better defense
theyre a risk reward thing
weak field
Oh ok I'm not gonna yell at them then I trust you in putting some sense in them
crystal iron
whips will come ok, but yetnagain thast jjst an argument i used in my defense
cerulean estuary
Theyre approaching true melee
The most fragile class shouldn't be given secondary weapons that approach true melee
weak field
Whips are approaching true melee?
zealous ridge
Whips are also a terrible weapon class for summoner to use
zenith hazel
whips really didn't need to exist
weak field
It slaps faster and harder than solar eruption
zealous ridge
the problem here is less that summoner should be designed for whips and more that whips should not be a summon weapon
they are by all accounts a melee weapon
crystal iron
lemme reword what i mean t in my sugg maybe
summoner has flaws pls fix some if it by maybe adding referneces to minion slots, like minions attack faster the more spare slots u hve, or ,maybe giving a boinus while using different summons etc
zealous ridge
with two mechanics that are connected to summoner
cerulean estuary
Then what's a better option for summoner to not exclusively rely on ai
weak field
Better ai
zealous ridge
one way is sentries
weak field
Or you can try minion targetting with right click
zealous ridge
much less ai, more reliable
tranquil perch
lemme reword what i mean t in my sugg maybe
summoner has flaws pls fix some if i...
ok that seems like a legit suggestion
but like
weak field
Sentry weapon is even more boring gameplay wise
crystal iron
i literally just simplified my sugg
crystal iron
and now its sudennly ok
weak field
At least you need to refocus your minion sometimes
cerulean estuary
Sentries are arguably worse
weak field
Because it's almost always just not worth it
sand umbra
wait a minute
weak field
Two minions shoot two times faster but 1 empty slot probably shouldn't make them shoot faster
sand umbra
y'all are still goin'?
weak field
Yes thomas
tranquil perch
its pointless balancing pain
cerulean estuary
all I want is for summiner to have more control
sand umbra
it's been like half an hour
crystal iron
it could add strategy if u could use spare slots to ur advantage ina diffrent way
weak field
Yeah I have no life
cerulean estuary
I'm still laying in bed
sand umbra
god, you people care about this shit even more than I do
weak field
I don't
sand umbra
and that's sayin' somethin'
zealous ridge
Okay Thomas
cerulean estuary
Apparently all it takes is bringing up summoner
sand umbra
what suggestion is this talkin' about, may I ask
cerulean estuary
The suggestion has changed 4 times
crystal iron
some points hace already vbeen proven wron btw
sand umbra
mm
crystal iron
less of a reworkbut more if a n improvemnt ill reword it soon
zealous ridge
well itās not even bringing up summoner, to be fair
itās just saying summoner needs a lot of help, and this is a statement you canāt just say and ask improvements for
There are a lot of interpretations on the summoner and how it should play
crystal iron
ye it could be smth tahts done gradually over a few updates
cerulean estuary
At first it was like "hey improve summoner a bit maybe more defense and utility weapons"
Then it was "completely rework summoner it's garbage"
Then "completely rework summoner but everyone yelled at me for calling it garbage"
And now I don't know
zealous ridge
which is why I feel that a suggestion with this much scope will not get enough traction in voting
crystal iron
but it should be expsnded upmn
weak field
It's just that you people always want to have some reward for holding down m1
crystal iron
upon
zealous ridge
well for the record I donāt think holding down m1 is good either
zealous ridge
I hate mana flower, I hate ranger in its entirety
because they encourage just holding the attack button down
weak field
What else are you going to do in the middle of a boss fight
Time your button press every single time you wanna shoot? nah I don't wanna use my brain
crystal iron
id say summoner needs more weapons like either borealis bomber or cold divinity
zealous ridge
ok so are you saying that you think m1 is bad or that itās good
weak field
m1 is bad but there's no other better solutions
weak field
Well you can also just not press m1 at all like summoner
zealous ridge
but itās a massive can of worms thatās beyond the scope of this
cerulean estuary
My stance is summoner needs more utility not just let ai try to fight, and to be less of a glass cannon if that utility is whips
weak field
I'd suggest some ways of controlling your summon tbh
Like mark a place for them to attack or to move to
cerulean estuary
Better summon controlling I am totally for
zealous ridge
That is a very common idea
weak field
So ai dicks you over less
zealous ridge
And itās a good starting point
cerulean estuary
I just want more actual playing the video game for summoner
zealous ridge
To me, it lacks intricacy in how it is presented
okay... control minions... now I can just hold m1 on enemies and not worry about minions being inconsistent
now to me, that just feels like disjointed ranger
cerulean estuary
Another problen I have that whips solved was tight spaces
weak field
Well how else are you going to make the summons consistent
zealous ridge
but at base value the description is so broad there are tons of interpretations
weak field
Besides better ai
sand umbra
allow me to toss my hat into the ring, so to speak
Summoner is a badly designed class, there's no two ways about it
the main problem with Summoner, and the only reason I'm even bothering to get involved in this argument, is that it is mind-numbingly boring to actually play
a lot of the summons seem cool at a cursory glance but then you realize most of them require no input from the player whatsoever and will not take any (shoutout to most summon weps in Calamity not respecting summon targeting)
you summon your minions and then do nothing else for the entirety of the fight
this is why I like active summons, they're a way to at least give the player something to do that isn't run away like a scared little bitch because their defense is lower than a high school girl's self-esteem after getting one negative comment on Instagram
HOWEVER, I don't think Calamity's going to be able to fix this within its scope
I say this as someone who has taken on the nigh-impossible task of making Summoner engaging and fun to play
it takes a ton of effort and at least a full update would need to be specifically dedicated to it
and I don't think the Calamity devs have it in 'em to set that kinda thing up, not with how much work it'd take
it'd basically be rebalancing the entire class, albeit for an improved experience, and the devs haven't shown too much enthusiasm about that in the past even with rogue, never mind the fact it'd be hella intrusive on vanilla which is a no-no for Calamity changes(?)
in short: I admire your ideals, but I feel the need to ruin them by bringing reality onto the playing field
cerulean estuary
Early game summon ai completely goes kapoot in tight spaces
weak field
Holy fuck
cerulean estuary
Where you spend most of early game
zealous ridge
again the perspective of m1 is the only option is limiting
weak field
So tl;dr: good idea but we don't wanna pay the effort
zealous ridge
and I donāt mean all of the class being a timing mini game
Thatās also not amazing
crystal iron
ok ill reword my sugg then
cerulean estuary
Chozo what is your opinion on thorium bard
Since you frequently bring up just holding m1
zealous ridge
I mean, what aspect
bard as a whole is somewhat broad Iād say
There are big instruments, which are hit or miss
in quality I mean
cerulean estuary
Inspiration has no mana flower, so it's burst damage
And also big instruments
weak field
Bard has burst damage and timing
zealous ridge
I like the effort, it gives it a more interesting mojo
It ends up feeling a bit similar to mage, I think
sand umbra
alright, I think this has gone on long enough
sand umbra
othermod shenanigans are for #other-mod-talk
this summoner convo has been happening for like an hour and I don't think it's getting much of anywhere in terms of producing a valid sugg
for the simple reason that the effort needed to fix summoner is out of the scope of suggestions
cerulean estuary
I've said what I wanna say
zealous ridge
If the sugg is gonna stay around it should be brought back
sand umbra
it's still too broad and any attempt to specify would have its own issues
crystal iron
oh, i didnt mean it like that this time, those are just suggestions so the devs sort of get the idea
on what can be improved
sand umbra
mmm
crystal iron
but doesnt have to, idk how to explin it
explain*
is it still an invaild sugg
those are all seperate things, idk mch about coding but i think using different summons and getting a bonus cuz of that is simple enough and it would improve summoner a lot
so i personally think thats a must cuz u get accesroies that give u bonuses if u sue them with others and summoner is similar to that
tawny garden
Philo are you yelling at them already?
I already yelled too much
crystal iron
anyway, is my sugg still invalid then
hot zephyr
Like Calamity summoner isn't top tier DPS lol
violet minnow
Like Calamity summoner isn't top tier DPS lol
it has really good dps if your not a summoner main
also the sugg breakes one of the don'ts
yep
zealous ridge
summoner is zoinked in dmg
crystal iron
thats why i reworded the sugg
its now just giving exmple of what could be done#
im not saying to rework summonoer anymore now its just improving ot
hot zephyr
Calamity needs to utilize whips to make Summoner more active
unreal star
how so
worthy lintel
ever since obsidian armor rework
you get vastly more damage from whips than minions
you're just a melee user at this point
simple fog
Ah improving a whole class as a suggestion....intriguing
1.4 will somewhat fix that with whips as it stands and invariably, more balancing with it
zealous ridge
whips suuuck
i already said my words on them
but if they are to stay in any capacity
i would remove their on-hit damage
and just have them do tag, and grant new effects to minions that hit tagged minions
cool whip, in this regard, is relatively interesting
firecracker, although broken, is fun as well
if there was a favorite for me though, it would be how dark harvest handles itself
also, uh-huh, obsidian armor was fucking insane and people could viably use it up to ML
the way i see it, the best way to make whips more summoner is to make them augment minions more and not give them their own damage values
if they are even to be expounded upon in the first place
worthy lintel
well, most complaints came from the lack of direct output from the player
whips were the easy solution i guess
besides, given how trash minion AI is, i doubt boosting them would do great benefits
a deep rework was needed before adding topping, it's like putting asphalt on a bridge when the pillars are still being built
zealous ridge
of course, lack of direct output is a big problem as well
the solution proposed in whips is very sub-par
and arguably just confuses the class's identity more
it was already inclined to being a multi-class class
just because of the non-activeness of nearly every summon weapon
but now, it has an active summon ability
... that is by almost every account melee
it even scales off of melee stats
melee speed, melee autoswing
even flasks are applicable to whips
worthy lintel
tbh summon should not have been made in a full-time class
atleast not in its current state
its just too inconsistent and the class doesnt become viable until like, plantera
i rant, i rant, but i dont think a fix is even possible for this class
would have been better to leave summon as a category of mage weapons since they use mana anyway
tawny garden
i love making mage worse because summon is bad
I will now proceed to bully you out of existence
simple fog
I do agree summoner should've been different but this stems from vanilla's perplexing way of doing it, failing to rectify the class entirely.
tawny garden
Full Bridge Rectifier
worthy lintel
Summoner just feels like one of those burdens you kinda live with
zealous ridge
summoner is handled so badly
worthy lintel
simple fog
Least in cal, summoner ends up be being quite op in the middle of hm to endgame so with whips it'd get even better
sturdy geyser
summoner is far from unsalvageable
tawny garden
I think it kinda is
sturdy geyser
theres tons of ways to make the class good
cerulean estuary
Man we still talking about summoner?
sturdy geyser
its a lot of work but doable
worthy lintel
yes lol
zealous ridge
i suppose
cerulean estuary
This is just the topic of the day lol
zealous ridge
spider brought it up
worthy lintel
š³
zealous ridge
i think lauren said something about reworks and whips and that got me talking bout it again
worthy lintel
why me
tawny garden
unless you change the spirit of the class to the point when it's no longer recognizable
zealous ridge
well i just thought you had stuff to say
worthy lintel
Something that big is worth talking 24/7
simple fog
Well summoner weapons are going to all get rebalanced as the rest of the weps are before the draedon update #1 and #2 is whips when 1.4tml comes out will most likely be reworked to be more enticing
zealous ridge
ofc
simple fog
Though the latter is a toss up on 1. when 1.4tml exists 2. the devs plans for whips in general 3. how whips will be integrated into cal standards for balance sake
zealous ridge
mhm
zealous ridge
oh im reminded and i guess ill ask if u know
flail dmg buffs will be somewhat nerfed, no?
considering theyre far better now
in 1.4
simple fog
I'm unsure but I'd wager no to entice users to use flails more than swinging broadswords more or less mindlessly
zealous ridge
all of their dmgs already got nearly doubled in 1.4 i recall
worthy lintel
sunfury went from funny fireball to an actually viable weapon
zealous ridge
if there was an adjustment to make them more enticing it would be probably something to do with the speen
the swing is a slow but rewarding move that i dont think needs much adjustment
worthy lintel
speen needs to have less knockback so knockback-resistant mobs can't be kept at bay forever
zealous ridge
the speen is okay but not worth over just spam throwing it or using any other close range weapon
i think the knockback could scale down the longer you spin it
early on its okay for keepaway
but its not an infinite loop, eventually the flail loses its kick and enemies will start murdering
worthy lintel
i also don't understand flails property of falling down and acting as a spikyball
it's so situational
zealous ridge
yeh
before 1.4 that was all thrown flails were
and it sucked balls
but now youve got other things to do with them
worthy lintel
funny speen cqc shield or massive long range, precise hit
zealous ridge
and i feel that the spiky ball thing can be politefully ignored as something to focus on '
worthy lintel
flails are now fun
zealous ridge
if anything its more of a downside for bad timing
if you hold out the flail for a bit too long itll start falling and mess with its return trajectory
worthy lintel
tbh it should just retract in a straight line, making the retract trajectory messy is an unecessary nerf
its not like flails are known for being broken
their use time is already high, missing leaves you defenseless
zealous ridge
itās also potentially useful, I could see the fall being helpful in some other situations
Hitting around barriers is one
yo-yos do it as well, but I donāt like yo-yos and they have their own wonky shenanigans to deal with
not to say they are to be ignored in this case
Also some flails benefit from being cast out longer
what Iām thinking of is, of course
Flower pow 
worthy lintel
there's also dao of pow
zealous ridge
itās a hyper elongated spear which shoots homing projectiles
worthy lintel
Confusing sounds interesting until you realize 70% of mobs in terraria are immune to it
zealous ridge
dao is also made irrelevant
due to da Drippler crippler
well, partially irrelevant
worthy lintel
it's also very tough to craft because you need both hallowed and corrupt desert
without human output the odds of having both is stupid low
zealous ridge
onyx and fracture, are, atleast, able to be obtained with only one of the two deserts
worthy lintel
to be fair, dao of pow should inflict a special variant of confused that affects nearly all mobs, at the cost of lower damage
could work as a defensive weapon if overwhelmed
zealous ridge
I mostly just wonder how 1.4s changes will affect how calamity has chosen to balance flails
silk echo
has amber approved the suggestion?
tawny garden
has amber approved the suggestion?
no
tbh, she rarely responds at all 
zealous ridge
crescent moon is a solar eruption
which i consider somewhat distinct from whips, but agreeably theyre very similar
simple fog
They're like flails but executed a little differently, crescent moon, solar eruption and cosmic discharge I'd not classify as whips
mighty patio
idk what you think guys but....#
tawny garden
#?
mighty patio
my suggestion is to delet or make the holy dash form the asgards valor longer
mighty patio
i dont realy like it and you can get a ninja gear or more that belt at this point
tawny garden
I believe that the dash was shortened on purpose to 1) compensate for the stat increases that the Asgard's Valor provides and 2) get you to use a different dashing accessory if you want a longer dash
eternal escarp
tbh valors dash is better left medium and not long imo
too long of a dash can mess u up, especially in bosses like prov (for those who use it by then)
mighty patio
than make medium, that im seen is short may to short
but its jsut my feelings about it
crystal iron
Uhm what do I cayneg about my Sugg to get rid of the exclam
visual wigeon
The scope of what you hope to accomplish with this Sugg is too much
sturdy geyser
make a series of smaller suggestions
pine star
yeah
Like the idea about adding more Borealis Bomber-like weapons could be a sugg in and of itself
crystal iron
is this better
actually ill reword it again cuz its worded badly
i just changed the sugg
is it better now
or does it still break the rules
tawny garden
it is
crystal iron
nice
crystal iron
i mean that wouldnbt be the main strategy just a little thing to adda mechanic
just like you have mana things where u deal more damage the more amna u have
it would be similar with summonner
tawny garden
@zenith hazel can theābe removed now?
zenith hazel
I guess
simple fog
I got it brav, the bot borked
simple fog
nice
hollow shell
@crude geode You should have the word "defense" in your topic line. Right now it says "Remove the differences", which is quite confusing
tawny garden
@hot zephyr "Reduce", not "Reduced"
tawny garden
it's good I think
hot zephyr
Seriously though, what were they thinking? THREE blocks for an iron bar?
whole sedge
Might as well just build with iron ore then
crystal iron
i might be understanding this wrong but one iron for 3 blocks sounds cheap
whole sedge
It's one iron bar for 3 lab blocks.
One iron bar is 3 ore.
crystal iron
wouldnt that make it 1 iron ore for one lab block then
whole sedge
Pretty much which is a terrible tradeoff
crystal iron
u cant make it less tho
unless it would be 1 ore for 3 blocks
but that sounds too cheap
whole sedge
You can by giving more per bar...
crude geode
@hidden wigeon Mechanical bosses donāt take a whole minute to spawn, unlike ML.
tranquil perch
Celestially sigil from Fargo's