suggestions-discussion

[inland frigate]

Yeah you're right

Say goodbye suggestion

let the devs cook

[drowsy plank]

@mental lodge this wasn't following the rules before and posting an even longer version does not make it follow the rules any more

and also those links still dont work

[drowsy plank]

@mental lodge im putting you on the suggestion blacklist because you aren't actually listening to anything we're saying

this is the fourth time you've posted the same suggestion and it is still invalid

you need to read the rules document in the pins

multiple people have explained how this still falls under the "Specific Rework Suggestion" rule, and you also are not formatting the post correctly because you do not have a title, you just keep saying "sorry for the spam" while not actually fixing any of the real issues with the post

right now your suggestion would be called "Sorry for posting 4 times! Everything is fixed now, sorry for spam!" not "Phaseslayer Rework", which, again, is not even allowed because you are not supposed to give solutions to the problems but explain what the problem is in the first place for developers to fix

if you're not going to actually communicate here, then there's no reason to let you keep posting because you simply are not actually going to fix the problems with your suggestion

[glass arch]

wait theres a sugg blacklist now

[lavish yoke]

im suggestion blacklisted

reason: evil

[drowsy plank]

yeah it was added semi-recently with the multiplayer blacklist for people who can't use channels like these properly but aren't violating any of the server rules

[oblique birch]

Wtf

Seeing something new everyday

[craggy girder]

you see someone put onto a new no-go list every once in a while

whats funny is that im pretty sure this could be implemented alone

i cant see the quality of the stuff since the links dont work on mobile but they’re probably at least semiquality

if this guy actually put them into his own mod it maybe could be a Very hidden gem. keyword maybe

[sleek turret]

alternatively just refund the donor and add credits on the steam workshop page like most modern mods cffffffffff

[drowsy plank]

they're just very choppy videos where he moves sprites with his mouse im p sure

[craggy girder]

is the spritework any good

in like, a respectable way you can phrase it

[drowsy plank]

it is just the existing sprites

[craggy girder]

🥹

well i gave him the benefit of the doubt

[grave zinc]

@near totem - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[## Add Shroomble Cage]

It has officially been implemented into the game, and will be available in the next update!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@lucid marsh - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Add a way to hide the difficulty selector]

It has been reviewed by the devs, and for one reason or another they decided it would be best not to implement it.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@safe gorge - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Give the Brimstone Crags a unique background showing more Azafurian ruins]

It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[lucid marsh]

Infuriating. It takes up so much space at the high UI scales I have to use

[plush flame]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[remote dune]

glorious day

[limber drift]

[safe gorge]

:o

[rapid eagle]

guys does the suggestion bot do reposts of older suggestiond or nah?

[glass arch]

you can repost old suggestions if they arent currently in voting or didn't make it to dev

[plush flame]

sends them to theh voting period

[rapid eagle]

how exactly?

[drowsy plank]

this is all in the pins

[kind laurel]

[drowsy plank]

@violet widget do you mean Rogue weapons? furthermore, to say your reasoning is light on this would be a massive understatement

like, what do you mean by "more interesting" and are these weapons even necessary? is there actually a lack of rogue weapons at that tier?

[craggy girder]

i can check. i think so

[drowsy plank]

oh wow what the hell is going on with rogue rarities rn

[lavish yoke]

theres

gilded dagger

the other gilded dagger

uhhhmm

nasty cholla

[drowsy plank]

that's preboss

[lavish yoke]

demonite and crimtane are also preboss

[drowsy plank]

they're proposing this as a post-EoC weapon and also crimtane and demonite and preboss the same way shrine accessories are

[glass arch]

not in any meaningful amount

[lavish yoke]

eoc is brought up because thats when you usually get them, from it dropping it

[frail fox]

I support the creation of rogue weapons for the remaining phm ores (copper/tin, silver/tungsten, demonite/crimtane)

[drowsy plank]

yeah so they're post-EoC because otherwise going only by obtainability means all dungeon chest items are pre-boss

[lavish yoke]

quite true

[lavish yoke]

indeed

[glass arch]

demonite and crimtane preboss is very uncommon its not reliably obtainable

[lavish yoke]

all dungeon items are pre boss

[drowsy plank]

lmao

[lavish yoke]

hellstone used to be preboss

[drowsy plank]

it's not

[glass arch]

hellstone still is preboss

[lavish yoke]

meteor is still preboss

[lavish yoke]

whaa

didnt the reaver shark unnerf get reverted

[errant wren]

dirt is preboss i think

[lavish yoke]

no you have to beat a boss to get it

[drowsy plank]

not in any meaningful way when it comes to balance so no they're not "preboss" by the conventional meaning of that word the same way destroyer and aquatic scourge are not actually viable first bosses to fight

[frail fox]

Nothing in particular planned but I'd say they're likely when the rogue/focus changes come

[drowsy plank]

anyway i think the idea is fine conceptually but the reasoning is bad

[glass arch]

that wasnt ever the only method

[limber drift]

hellstone is preboss due to like how theres enough obtainable from the brimstone crag chests, hell lab chests and shimmering the hell seeking mechanisms from the jungle bio-lab, to make a molten pickaxe

and then like get infinite

[lavish yoke]

oh right seeking mechanisms

i forgot those are for some reason made of hellstone

[glass arch]

there are other ways, namely red seeking mechanisms and the hellstone in the hell lab, roxcalibur shimmer, and crags chests

[limber drift]

oh yeah also rox yeah

[craggy girder]

isnt acid rain a good post eoc thing

[limber drift]

Also I believe the flame walker boots from obsidian crates can be shimmered into hellstone

[craggy girder]

i remember it as "The Rogue Event In Prehardmode"

[glass arch]

i mean it Is post eoc but there also isnt anything there pre hardmode

[drowsy plank]

ngl i expect yall to just move some of the perf/hivemind drops back to crafts and making them either crimtane crafts or post-evil1 crafts because the sheer degree of reworking them would effectively make them new items whenever perf/hivemind ACTUALLY get swapped with folly

[lavish yoke]

nothing there you could say

[limber drift]

well it does give rouge their first armour

[drowsy plank]

it's also how you make all the good acidwood crafts

[glass arch]

its actually like the second or third

[lavish yoke]

snow ruffian

gladiator

[limber drift]

Oh right yeah they have 1 before

[glass arch]

depends on where you place gladiator

[limber drift]

but like its still an upgrade for armour

[drowsy plank]

don't you mean desert prowler

[glass arch]

❌ not anymore. desert prowler is rogue

[drowsy plank]

lo

[lavish yoke]

Wow

[glass arch]

cog you're being explodicated

[limber drift]

Also it is dumb how front loaded rogue armours are in terms of prehardmode progression, they're all either pre-boss or just after eoc

[lavish yoke]

it was indeed a good choice to not do ranger after 2.1.0

no desert prowler

:(

[limber drift]

ranger gets snow ruffian now

[lavish yoke]

thats so ass

i hate it

[craggy girder]

#"whyisacidt1aftereocitshouldbeafterskeletron"gang

[limber drift]

it was cos ranger don't need two pre-boss desert armour sets

[lavish yoke]

yeah they did

[glass arch]

or its one of the 2 mid-late hardmode armor sets

[drowsy plank]

yeah ranger has fossil now

[lavish yoke]

fossil wasnt ranger before wild

i always used it,,

[drowsy plank]

blame red for deleting thrower idfk

[lavish yoke]

which are currently all class

[craggy girder]

have prowler be the preboss, have pre-skele-acid have the mid prehm, have sulph be the late hardmode option, and have gladiator be the ancient shadow armor of rogue

[lavish yoke]

whats the mid

[drowsy plank]

glad is already the ancient shadow armor of rogue

[craggy girder]

yeah i know thats why you keep it like that

[lavish yoke]

indeed

isnt ancient shadow just regular shadow

[drowsy plank]

rogue getting its second armor set in 2036 with the perf/folly swap fr

[craggy girder]

aeralite is for mid hardmode and i dont like ti

[lavish yoke]

dont you mean ancient cobalt

am i tripping

[glass arch]

regular shadow but it drops from enemies

[drowsy plank]

yeah but ancient shadow is obtainable preboss from enemies

[lavish yoke]

perforators right before ml is wild

[glass arch]

folly is intended post moon lord

[lavish yoke]

omg the lag

[limber drift]

I do kind of feel like gladiator doesn't really need to be rogue armour since like it has enough early-prehardmode armours and like its a good classless option in vanilla with its knockback immunity set bonus

[glass arch]

so no actually perfs will be right after moon lord

[violet widget]

Rogue could use crimtane weapon for parity, but you do get coin of deceit from demonite and crimtane

[glass arch]

ok but cal already HAS a knockback immunity armor

its lead and its way easier to get

[limber drift]

Lead armour having it is dumb and I hate it

[lavish yoke]

lead is the defensive armor

[craggy girder]

is iron the offensive

no its the knockback

[lavish yoke]

iron is the forgotten child

[craggy girder]

[violet widget]

not that rogue doesn't have any good options ofc just the same reason there's bricks and tomohawks near the beginning

[limber drift]

hear me out give rogue a demonite/crimtane weapon so they can also make a night's edge equivalent for rogue

[lavish yoke]

not the middle child the one lost in a forest and never talked about again

[violet widget]

exactly

[lavish yoke]

true...

[limber drift]

rogue not having an equivalent is stupid when the other classes got ones in calamity

[craggy girder]

whats the other components

whats the jungle, dungeon, and uh

[limber drift]

spore knife, infernal kris and shinobi blade

[lavish yoke]

tbf one of those is the lunarian bow

[craggy girder]

right hell

[lavish yoke]

true...

[limber drift]

we have rogue weapons that match up with 3/4 of the night's edge components we just need a crimtane/demonite throwing knife like weapon to complete it

[drowsy plank]

discord ate all my messages anyways no

the other classes shouldn't have night's edge equivalents in the first place

[lavish yoke]

scale the demonite swords down and make them throwable

[limber drift]

slight's bane

[drowsy plank]

night's edge is night's edge it doesn't need to be every class's weapon as well

[lavish yoke]

delete lunarian bow pls

[drowsy plank]

it just homogenouses and devalues the actually interesting terra bow line

[lavish yoke]

most underwhelming weapon ever

[limber drift]

yeah but like calamity gives equivalents to the other classes but rogue which is so dumb if you've done it for the others

[drowsy plank]

lunarian is the only one trying to be different thematically

[limber drift]

eye of night, lunarian bow and night's ray

[glass arch]

and it still SUCKS thematically

[lavish yoke]

theyre all themed after night

[drowsy plank]

its functionality is ass but at least it's not just "night's bow" or something

[lavish yoke]

lunarian is moon

[limber drift]

I would love if they tried to each be unique design wise also but like there should be an equivalent to rogue if the others get one

[lavish yoke]

moon is up at night

[drowsy plank]

yeah but at least it isn't literally just a purple bow

[lavish yoke]

sun's edge for rogue

[craggy girder]

night's edge
sky's slight
earth's crusher
depth's watcher
sinner's slicer

[glass arch]

at least it isnt exactly the aesthetic of nights edge

[drowsy plank]

it wouldn't be hard to pivot more towards the moon angle and differentiate it more

[lavish yoke]

true

it would be cool if it wasnt the most underwhelming weapon ever

[limber drift]

I will say I kind of feel like eye of night is kind of lame as is like its just an eye ball minion it feels underwhelming visually imo

[drowsy plank]

yeah but that's the story of calamity lmao

[violet widget]

the game already has a ton of terra blade-like weapons I dont really think more nights edge variants would be terrible

[lavish yoke]

eye of night is like that one early hm summon that is like a floating plate

you know the one

[limber drift]

the thing with rogue is it gives every class but rogue a night's edge equivalent which is so stragne

[drowsy plank]

eye of night should've been a deathstare rod upgrade

[lavish yoke]

it also feels underwhelming to use

[glass arch]

it having a ton of terra blade-like weapons is also not a good thing it should not have those

[lavish yoke]

the mage one is okay to use

[craggy girder]

based on the different heights of the world (and how important terraria considers each of them lie)

[limber drift]

ehh the terra set looks neat but like imo we don't need like a terra flamethrower and spear

[craggy girder]

thats the corruption item

[limber drift]

It is neat to have one for each class but like why do flamethrowers get one it feels so random

[craggy girder]

or, evil item

[half imp]

Eye of night should apply Celled

[limber drift]

[lavish yoke]

eye of night should apply social anxiety status effect

[craggy girder]

it should apply vulnerability hex because it watches you when you're vulnerable

[indigo yacht]

oh boy 156 messages I'm sure they're all about the suggestion in question

[indigo yacht]

??

[half imp]

the fact eon doesn't do a stacking debuff is sad

[limber drift]

make eye of night have a tiny phantasmal deathray attack

[half imp]

It's literally stardust cell jr

[lavish yoke]

like some sort of nights ray

[half imp]

Make eye of night go to sleep during the day

[limber drift]

make eye of night blink

[lavish yoke]

make eye of night

[indigo yacht]

i guessss

[half imp]

Necrosteocytes also should apply celled

[lavish yoke]

i like how the eye of night concept gets completely thrown out

[drowsy plank]

they would we already removed so many. stop just making every weapon a set sets are boring as fuck

[limber drift]

all summon weapons should apply celled except stardust dragon

[lavish yoke]

suddenly there is no eye

[violet widget]

true

[half imp]

sets aren't boring when handled right

[lavish yoke]

sets that are like 2 classes are fine but all class is boringg

[half imp]

Like Stratus!

[lavish yoke]

stratus is fun because it has a very fun gimmick to it that all of the weapons share in their own way

[indigo yacht]

nothing inherently wrong with sets as long as there's something to set them apart (and they're not overdone)

[half imp]

The issue is not sets in and of themselves, it's just having too many of them

[lavish yoke]

except for halleys inferno which just does its own thing because its starburst SUCKS

[limber drift]

yeah but the "Night's Edge equivalent" set is different cos rn it just says fuck you to rogue and just has one for the other 4 classes which feels weird to me

[lavish yoke]

if theyre not overdoze

[half imp]

it's starburst is notably better than not using it's starburst

as of 2.1.2

[lavish yoke]

it feels ass

[half imp]

2.1.0 Halley starburst was bugged and did 25% less dmg than it was supposed to

[violet widget]

even the base game has dark lance which is just spear nights edge

[indigo yacht]

there's literally a cal dev named done that was the easiest option to go for

[violet widget]

not with the crafting ofc

[indigo yacht]

over@frigid night

[lavish yoke]

done 22 is evil he doesnt deserve that pun

[indigo yacht]

he is evil

this is true

[limber drift]

Night's edge in vanilla is moreso part of a set with dark lance and arguably demon scythe being hell themed

[indigo yacht]

puprle

[limber drift]

shadow chest is also part of the set I guess

[lavish yoke]

ourple!!

[fleet grotto]

Hello?

[limber drift]

neighbour

[lavish yoke]

hii

[fleet grotto]

[violet widget]

nights edge equivalent that doesn't follow the exact same steps of nights edge would maybe be better too

[fleet grotto]

dumb question how would it be a ne equivalent then

wouldn't it just kinda be its own thing

[lavish yoke]

if they have distincter theming but the same process maybe thatd be cool

[limber drift]

Make each of the night's edge equivalents have unqiue challenging ways to obtain to make them unique but still so they're meant to be group

[lavish yoke]

nights bow nights ray nights summon nights knife

🔥

[violet widget]

like instead of just combining evil weapon hell weapon dungeon weapon and jungle weapon you just use whatever the most popular or best weapons already were regardless of theme

gets the same effect as nights edge but is more original

[limber drift]

night's ray basically is crafted kind of like that

[drowsy plank]

even within the hell set you still have the divide between night's style, hellstone style, and even just complete outliers like flower of fire

Calamity needs to handle its sets more like that

[drowsy plank]

it'd be an equivalent in terms of progression because having "ultimate weapons" at those tiers is still useful for progression, but they shouldn't all be the same

[lavish yoke]

we should add a flower of fire/frost upgrade

[violet widget]

yeah but it still stands on its own but serves a similar purpose

[limber drift]

night ray uses wand of frosting and amber staff (and Vilethorn or Crimson Rod and magic missile)

[craggy girder]

i am unbiased and like these names

[fleet grotto]

im realizing the night's weapons are like miracle matter weapons

[limber drift]

but yeah making them each use a different collection of themes in the components could be cool

[lavish yoke]

indeed

we should add a 4th component to the lunarian bow

[limber drift]

flinx staff + hornet staff + vamp frog staff + imp staff or something for summoner idk

[fleet grotto]

the acid rain bow

[violet widget]

arc of the cosmos is another zenith even though they're not the same theme kinda

[craggy girder]

i believe thats the idea behind them.

[lavish yoke]

thats just a long crafting line

[craggy girder]

nights -> terra -> elemental -> miracle

[lavish yoke]

we should have more of those i like crafting

[violet widget]

ok so a long crafting line

[lavish yoke]

even though items get added in randomly when going up a tier

[violet widget]

I think scarlet devil does something similar

or one of them

[fleet grotto]

toxibow, shellshooter, galeforce, the fucking blood rain bow from vanilla god i can't fucking remember the name im such a CHUD

[lavish yoke]

and some of them dont go all the way up

[lavish yoke]

isnt it called blood rain bow

[craggy girder]

[lavish yoke]

😭

[limber drift]

and some go randomly on side routes like elemental lance -> nadir iirc

[fleet grotto]

okay so i may have to go literally die

[lavish yoke]

nadir is a zenith equivalent

[craggy girder]

but for spears

and for melee

[fleet grotto]

i moreso mean like nights and miracle ESPECIALLY are comparable

[lavish yoke]

nights edge is parallel to dark lance

zenith is parallel to nadir

👍

[craggy girder]

melees a fat chud they get two zeniths

[lavish yoke]

your greed is hurting the economy

[limber drift]

its kind of a nadir parallel but like its not really like a culmination of all your spears like the zenith is with swords since nadir only includes 3 base spears in its tree

[lavish yoke]

terra tier is like so mid i dont like it

[lavish yoke]

true

[violet widget]

seraphim is a really long crafting line too
it goes back as far as wulfrum dagger and goes to auric

[lavish yoke]

if we had more spears

[violet widget]

no beating terra blade my goat

[fleet grotto]

they

• use multiple weapons from different parts of progression
• are near the very end of their progression stage
  • basically after the penultimate boss (if you just ignore that yharim isn't in the game yet)
• use a special material locked behind the aforementioned boss

[limber drift]

I feel like the Terra set should kind of be made smaller, by like making the terra flamethrower and terra spear into entirely seperate things so it just has a weapon for each class I feel

[fleet grotto]

comparing night's and miracle matter btw

[lavish yoke]

make nadir use more spears theyre like all mid

[limber drift]

make nadir into a jousting lance cos they're peaker than spears

[lavish yoke]

theres tenebreus tides proboscis and banshee hook and a bunch of ore filler

[fleet grotto]

wait this is peak?

[lavish yoke]

earthern pike doesnt count because fraud elemental

[limber drift]

honestly having like nadir include jousting lances in its recipe and like have a right click jousting lance mode would be fire

[lavish yoke]

true...

[limber drift]

done, now just includes sausage maker in it recipe now

[lavish yoke]

🔥🔥🔥

[limber drift]

also yateveo bloom too

[fleet grotto]

make nadir use violence.

but don't change the strength

[violet widget]

trident too

[lavish yoke]

thats a donor item

[fleet grotto]

immediate upgrade? No. immediate DOWNGRADE

[limber drift]

yes thats part of the joke

[violet widget]

just make you go out of your way as much as possible

[half imp]

Yeah, those 3 are the set

Source: I made it up

[lavish yoke]

oh yes the great trident

viable for exos

[fleet grotto]

not normal trident

amidias' trident

[lavish yoke]

that's used for tenebreus tides

[limber drift]

nadir will also now use spear of paleolith and spear of destiny in their recipe now

[lavish yoke]

💔

[fleet grotto]

use both?

losser

[half imp]

Nadir should use nothing in its recipe

[lavish yoke]

ur so right bestie

[fleet grotto]

nadir crafting speedrun world record

[limber drift]

nadir should use 22.69 delicious meat in its recipe

[violet widget]

complimentary nadir when you download calamity

[half imp]

this includes no result

[lavish yoke]

nadir should just be crafted with nether auric bars and darksun frags

[fleet grotto]

nether auric bars

[limber drift]

nadir should need nadir in its recipe if its the ultimate spear it should include the strongest spear in its recipe

[fleet grotto]

😟

[lavish yoke]

twisting nether

[fleet grotto]

are we going to… the nether?

[limber drift]

yeah thats signus' home

[lavish yoke]

twisting netherite

[violet widget]

craft trident using nadir

[lavish yoke]

like some sort of community remix

[lavish yoke]

proboscis

[limber drift]

I do kind of wonder whats the plan with the miracle matter weapons cos I do wonder like if there is plans to change what kinds of weapons get them

[lavish yoke]

make exo prisms usable for something

[limber drift]

give me a miracle matter flail devs and my life is yours

[violet widget]

miracle matter should become the weapon you just throw it

[limber drift]

make ashes of anihilation also useful for something

also make a miracle matter golf club devs please

[lavish yoke]

true

[violet widget]

miracle matter toilet

[lavish yoke]

make it stratus sphere 2

[fleet grotto]

gem tech armor helloo

[lavish yoke]

thats a donor item!!!

[fleet grotto]

that is something!!

[limber drift]

we're also gonna eventually get exo armour also so like it'll have that

[lavish yoke]

ashes of annihilation

[fleet grotto]

and in the future ashes will just be turned into the demonshade armor stuff

[limber drift]

I think I remember hearing demonshade armour will be re-tiered to just post-scal

[lavish yoke]

yeah it will i believe

[lavish yoke]

wouldnt that be made with miracle matter

[limber drift]

they should add exo prism, an upgraded last prism, crafted with ashes of anihilation

[limber drift]

I'm pretty sure exo armour would be made directly from exo prisms cos it looks nothing like miracle matter

[fleet grotto]

idt the sprites are even finalized

[lavish yoke]

i think there should be an armor set made of auric bars to go with those two!!!

[limber drift]

I do hope that like more exhumed weapons are added since like it could be cool if the miracle matter weapons and exhume weapons are kind of equivalent sets from defeating exos and scal but idk

[lavish yoke]

true

rn exhuming only benefits mage and summoner

[fleet grotto]

I have good news! 😁

[limber drift]

well there is the shattered community but yeah

[lavish yoke]

shattered community is all class

• its like so cool i love it

[limber drift]

but yeah weapons for each class at least would be grat

[fleet grotto]

Ermm technically it's slightly worse for summonerrrr

[lavish yoke]

summoner gets two exhumed weapons smh

[fleet grotto]

I mean scomm

[limber drift]

Like theres a lot of potential, maybe letting us get like cataclysm's sword and punch like catastrophe

[lavish yoke]

yeah i know

[fleet grotto]

stinker

[limber drift]

make a cryogen based exhumed weapon so that we can get a bit of dialogue from scal on its creation

[lavish yoke]

to punch like catastrophe you download a difficulty mod and let your rage out on your screen

[limber drift]

yeah catastrophe the brother who punches my favourite

[fleet grotto]

Exhume ice star for the rogue exhume weapon

[limber drift]

[lavish yoke]

exhume soul of cryogen

[fleet grotto]

Icebreaker could also get some love. Literally among the most nothing weapons in the whole game

[limber drift]

I do kind of feel like it could be cool if there were exhumes for all of cal clones weapon drops also cos like I just feel like it would be kind of fitting idk

[half imp]

meh

[limber drift]

like oblivion upgrade thats a whispering maelstrom on a string

[half imp]

I don't think any of them really need exhumes

[limber drift]

well one does already but fair

[fleet grotto]

Okay this goes. Hard though

[half imp]

The summon makes sense because it gives her a brothers exhume

Tbh Maelstrom should be represented in Calamity

[limber drift]

I do kind of very much wish there was exhumes for each of the brothers individually too so we can learn more about each brother seperately too

[half imp]

too bad

Catastrophe Claymore revival when tbh...

[limber drift]

give me lore on cataclysm and like his hobbies and my life is yours doez

[lavish yoke]

his hobbies are being dead and getting summoned by calamitas

[limber drift]

hear me out blowgun exhume which fires brimstone darts like the ones in the bullet hells

[drowsy plank]

holy shit a dart weapon

[limber drift]

the 3rd dart weapon in calamity

even though 1 of those was removed and the other is dartecho greatbow

[worthy lintel]

if we changed blowgun and blowpipe so it fired darts instead of seeds...

[limber drift]

I have some crazy news to share with you

it dose both

[lavish yoke]

it doze both

[limber drift]

I will say I would love for exhumes of items which like let us learn what calamitas has to say on more bosses and character that we don't have yet that she would have things to say, like maybe her talking about cal clone, permafrost/cryogen, maybe like draedon and brimmy idk

[oblique birch]

we have Maelstrom at home that's called Burning Sea

[worthy lintel]

if one made an auric blowgun, would it be a blowgun or a railgun

[limber drift]

that'd be a taser

[half imp]

That'd be peak

[lavish yoke]

it would be a bad idea

[worthy lintel]

the terrarian would absolutely make a weapon that is literally just a tube that abuses rejection

[lavish yoke]

i wouldnt want to put my mouth on something made of auric ore

[limber drift]

auric golf club when it'd be peak

[fleet grotto]

its like a flute

You just put your mouth close to it not on it

[worthy lintel]

bard class

[lavish yoke]

fair enough youre just gonna abuse rejection to throw a dart really fast

what if you want to throw an auric dart huh

[glass arch]

auric sling

[limber drift]

monkey dart revival as an auric dart

[worthy lintel]

apex auric master

[lavish yoke]

so true

[limber drift]

but if you try to use it as dart ammo instead of firing the dart the rejection launches the dart gun away as the projectile

[indigo yacht]

hi

[half imp]

Auric baseball bat

[limber drift]

auric tesla's amulet upgrade when

[pulsar marlin]

I definitely agree on a Demonite/Crimtane rogue weapon

[feral sparrow]

it would be cool if there were more mgrr items like raidens armour or something. or an accessory that gives you a fuel cell bar/meter that would allow time slow down (using rage meter makes time stop completely) allowing you to deal consecutive attacks. and if timestop or slow isn't possible then maybe increasing dps briefly?

[ripe owl]

We definitely do not need more references for the sake of references

[indigo yacht]

isn't that essentially what rage and adrenaline are lol

a meter that fills up and increases dps briefly

[drowsy plank]

NO MORE BARS!!!!!!!!

[limber drift]

Calamity already has too many references to Mgrr

[feral sparrow]

yea ig so didn't think adrenaline was related

my bad lol

[lavish yoke]

add gilgamesh from the hit roblox game balanced craftwars overhaul

[indigo yacht]

add haileyy exterminator from the hit game me

[limber drift]

add the grand thunder bird from fargo's mod to calamity

[lavish yoke]

why would one want to exterminate haileyy

[worn elk]

how would you even change the speed of time in a multiplayer game xd

[limber drift]

slow everyone else down obviously that'd totally not be incredibly annoying

[worn elk]

especially for an extended period of time

[frigid night]

how did this even happen

[plush flame]

no add gilgamesh from the hit story epic of gilgamesh

[glass arch]

no add gilgamesh from hit game fate grand order

[ocean flare]

alcoholism update where no alcohol is added

[indigo yacht]

just trust me

[dire warren]

add gilgamesh from the hit joostmod

[humble scarab]

@oblique bone calamity already adds option to limit particles

[oblique bone]

To 0?

[humble scarab]

you can put any number

[oblique bone]

I want it to be 0

Nothing

No particles no Animations

No projectile animations

Poor intel hd xd

[humble scarab]

nvm

you can put 500 minimum

prob cuz it will break stuff

[humble scarab]

no animations also would be scuffed to do

[oblique bone]

I need 3000 dollar xd

[humble scarab]

• terraria uses mainly cpu

it doesnt use gpu

[oblique bone]

I need a real pc

[humble scarab]

and only 1 core from the cpu

[glass arch]

yeag its a cpu issue your gpu isnt used nearly at all

[calm knot]

@drowsy plank any advice for this one

[oblique bone]

😔

[drowsy plank]

honestly the fact it can't feels more like a bug with calamity trees than an intended feature but also idk enough about scorched bone plans to really say one way or the other

[indigo yacht]

I don't think it's a bug since spine trees are ostensibly not wood (and therefore can't be used in any general wood crafts) and use a different seed type

I'd like the axe to be able to replant them though

[keen zodiac]

@dusky sedge that suggestion is invalid

literally no text???

[indigo yacht]

probably spam bot

[keen zodiac]

yes that is indeed the joke

[calm knot]

perchance

[deft yew]

You can’t just

[indigo yacht]

perchance

[limber drift]

perchance indeed

[grave zinc]

@fleet grotto - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Change the obtainment method of the Crags Pylon]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@kind laurel - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Replace Amidias' Help Dialogue about Fighting Yharim with Fighting Calamitas]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@gaunt trout - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Add an Empress of Light rogue weapon]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@oblique geyser - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Force Deerclops to spawn closer to the player in Boss Rush]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[lucid marsh]

Why do I even bother making suggestions

[keen zodiac]

sounds like skill issue

[half imp]

they're supposed to be nurse removable

Being fixed next update

[keen zodiac]

oh nice

[fleet grotto]

Honestly why are they even considered debuffs

Is it something to do with tracking the alcohol poisoning

[drowsy plank]

i think part of it is flavor and the other is alcohol poisoning yeah

like they do have downsides, unlike most potions

which i feel like is also part of why ale was subsumed into that category, beyond, obviously, being an alcohol

it is really weird that you can't just cancel them tho considering im... pretty sure you can do that with ale? feel free to correct me if i am wrong

"Since Tipsy is a debuff, it will be removed by the Nurse."
nvm that is also just parity too

very silly

[drowsy plank]

you can blame red!

[fleet grotto]

I hate that damn bird

[drowsy plank]

anyway when is calamity adding this;
https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Legacy:Wiesnbräu

[keen zodiac]

it's so you can't remove them with right click

that's an intentional design feature in calamity

[fleet grotto]

yes but i also don't get why you shouldn't be able to lol

[keen zodiac]

idk

@half imp i summon thee

[vocal wedge]

You can't just stop being drunk on a whim.

The other potions are magic.

But alcohol is still alcohol.

[fleet grotto]

i mean i guess

[humble scarab]

how alcohol gives you homing shots if its not magic

[keen zodiac]

simply replace all your blood

[vocal wedge]

You get so drunk that you begin curving the bullets.

By sheer chance they seem to home in.

[fleet grotto]

but also you can decrease your duration of being sick with a red rock

[half imp]

I have been summoned

[vocal wedge]

Read my- wait no.

[keen zodiac]

why are alcohols debuffs

[half imp]

It's to make it so downsides aren't ignorable

Like toggling off bloody Mary once you're done

[fleet grotto]

oh okay

[half imp]

You're committing to the full duration, that's part of the risk

[keen zodiac]

makes sense

[half imp]

We're also fixing alcohol poisoning death loops, it'll cut you down to 3 alcohol worth on death

[fleet grotto]

it feels tedious thinking about it because like "i just want to try this out" and you can't back out if you don't like it. unlike almost everything else

but i guess there's not a way to keep players from just avoiding the downside if it's not for that

[gilded citrus]

So you gotta be sure you wanna deal with the downsides for the entire period of time i think

[fleet grotto]

snaaaaiil

[humble scarab]

nurse but make it very expensive

[gilded citrus]

Dies

[half imp]

@full sentinel already fixed for 2.2

[full sentinel]

Thank god, cause being forced to wait for ~8 minutes for the alcohols to wear off was not fun lol

Still, I do think there should be an alternate way to clear alcohols without the nurse, that way if you want to test some out with a build you won't need to wait if she isn't available

[half imp]

There's a handful of them that disabling would cause balance issues with

[drowsy plank]

do alcohols work like flasks

what do you mean dying repeatedly

why would they work like that

[tepid crown]

alcs stay after death

so that you get their full uptime

[drowsy plank]

does ale do that in vanilla

[tepid crown]

no

its a thing doze did to the new alcs since he also made them more costly to obtain

[drowsy plank]

i see

[half imp]

it serves two purposes yeah

• maintain some of the risk of Bloody Mary specifically so you can't just die to bypass the downside of having to do the whole 6 minutes
• make it so 1 craft actually lasts 1 hour / 2 hours of boss attempts

[worthy lintel]

does make me ponder why all potions are not just like that by default

less people would be driven to alchnpc if potions werent wasted on an early demise

[whole tundra]

#suggestions-posting message Hasn't this been suggested before?

#suggestions-voting message Might be worth a chance now as it's been 2 years

[vocal wedge]

Wasn't Astrum Deus meant to be an alternative to Moon Lord at some point?
Might make more sense to have it unlock profaned enemies rather than having to come up with a reason for how it would have swallowed something like that.

[keen zodiac]

that was a hypothetical idea for like a week after fab died

[vocal wedge]

Fair enough.

[sleek turret]

boss related to the astral biome... unlocks profaned (hell/hallow) enemies?

[vocal wedge]

Profaned stuff isn't even meant to be tied to there.

And you already beat up a Distortion monster that lives on the moon for them anyway.

[glass arch]

ok but you can make the same argument for moon lord

[sleek turret]

I'm not concluding that moon lord is different though

It was an observation

[worthy fractal]

is there any reason that the astral meteor spawns the second you kill wof

[vocal wedge]

Coincidence.

[tepid crown]

no it wasnt

it was like

the original plan for ad

which is why astral stuff (especially the armour) is as strong as it is

[worthy fractal]

astrum deus would be way too easy if it was an alternative to ml

[vocal wedge]

Good thing that it is undoubtedly going to be changed at some point.

Since it's... just weird.

Why does it turn into two worms?

[glass arch]

why is it at a fake progression point thats the biggest issue

[frail fox]

Original plan as in when it was retiered in 2019?

[tepid crown]

thats awesome

7 years ago

[keen zodiac]

it used to turn into 11

[glass arch]

its been tossed around occasionally since then but it never went anywhere

[vocal wedge]

??? What was Fabsol on!???

[frail fox]

11 worm deus went hard

[keen zodiac]

purple haze

[tepid crown]

i still dont understand why old cal had a thing for wanting to add alternatives to vanilla bosses

[sleek turret]

clown car deus was funny (awful landmine zone)

[keen zodiac]

true it would actually be kinda goated if it wasn't designed by fabsol

[tepid crown]

was golem, cultist and duke really the only hm bosses that didnt alts

[frail fox]

Mech alts because cal made mechs so bad that you need an alternate source for souls

[keen zodiac]

ravager

[glass arch]

golem had ravager

[tepid crown]

dies of death

[vocal wedge]

Sure, the idea of having alternative routes for progression is fine.
Just, you know, actually implement that properly.

[glass arch]

duke you could argue leviana was supposed to be an alt

[keen zodiac]

mmmmmmm

[glass arch]

it wouldnt be a very good argument but you could make the argument

[tepid crown]

tbh duke doesnt unlock anything so having an alt wouldnt make sense in the first place

[frail fox]

By alts I assume you mean bosses based off vanilla ones (which aren't alts), which is just how a lot of old Terraria mods were (why do you think Fab liked Avalon so much)

[glass arch]

no alts being like

[tepid crown]

no

[glass arch]

alternatives to the boss that still gets you the same result

like boc and eow

[tepid crown]

i mean bosses that would unlock things that let you skip a vanilla boss

like cryogen having souls of

might? i think?

[gilded citrus]

Brimmy, cryogen and wet scoog were mech alts for some reason

[glass arch]

cryogen had might yeah

[frail fox]

Okay well then how did you even get this number

[glass arch]

cryo had might, scoog had sight, brimmy had fright

[frail fox]

Wait nvm

That was hardmode

[tepid crown]

calclone was plant alt, and deus would be ml

[frail mantle]

soul of blue, soul of green and soul of red

[tepid crown]

true actually

[keen zodiac]

true

[gilded citrus]

True

[frail mantle]

good to see we're all in agreement here

[frail fox]

I thought you were talking about phm too and was so confused where the wof alt was

[tepid crown]

lol???

[gilded citrus]

Clearly slimegod the wof alt

[vocal wedge]

Did Clone ever even unlock the Temple?

[tepid crown]

no ud craft the key

at the start of hm

[vocal wedge]

Amazing.

[gilded citrus]

What

[keen zodiac]

can't you still do that

[gilded citrus]

Old calamity let you craft the key early hm

[frail fox]

Wasn't that a thing until 2.1 lmao

[gilded citrus]

Dun think so???

[gilded citrus]

???????

[tepid crown]

it got killed

since u can just hoik in anyway

[glass arch]

yes

[vocal wedge]

Ok, so when you're making interesting options in gameplay, you don't make it so that you can just do it whenever at minimal cost.
Someone take this message and send it back in time.

[glass arch]

temple key recipe was killed in 2.1

[frail fox]

DoG and Rune of Kos recipes

[gilded citrus]

Fighting the sentinels for dog summon sounds like hell

[worthy fractal]

why

[keen zodiac]

have you fought them

[vocal wedge]

Because you have to fight them.

[frail fox]

Signus 😨

[gilded citrus]

They are fabsol bosses

[vocal wedge]

They should just hand you the Mark of Providence and the Cosmic Worm as Moon Lord drops, to skip the middle men.

[worthy fractal]

thats a good point but im pretty sure almost every basecal boss is a fabsol boss

[gilded citrus]

Yeah calamity bosses are torture

[vocal wedge]

Brain of Cthulhu and Devourer of Gods:

[gilded citrus]

Almost:

[worthy fractal]

"almost"

[gilded citrus]

Snail

[keen zodiac]

the sentinels are uniquely horrific imo

[worthy fractal]

i know that everyone hates on cv

[keen zodiac]

cv is actually the best one

[glass arch]

signus is notable for being the single easiest boss in calamity
void is notable for being probably the worst designed boss in calamity
weaver just isnt notable actually

[keen zodiac]

it's just way too easy to get comboed rn

[tepid crown]

cv is kinda like

how do i explain it

[keen zodiac]

"worst designed boss" have you met exos

[tepid crown]

people just kinda dont realise what to do with it (and also the suck phases suck. they suck.)

[gilded citrus]

Storm weaver is the best one of the three imo

[glass arch]

with cv its way too easy to get combod, the fight structure relies on you removing the single mode of attack followed by a bullet hell, and you have to do it FOUR TIMES

[keen zodiac]

hm

[drowsy plank]

on the topic of the deus thing they never reached voting

#suggestions-voting message
#suggestions-voting message

[keen zodiac]

:lo:

[drowsy plank]

nvm found it
#suggestions-voting message

[glass arch]

yeah exos arent actually horribly designed they're just Bad because of fabsol constantly neutering them

[worthy fractal]

lol???

[keen zodiac]

they're horribly designed because they fail at every goal set by the mission statement

[worthy fractal]

exos are just complete bullethell

[drowsy plank]

actually wait

this is a legal suggestion

because it was rejected back in 2024

[keen zodiac]

make a fight where 3 bosses work together and it's mathematically impossible for you to win

[drowsy plank]

gfdjsghlkjfdg

[vocal wedge]

On the one hand it is bad for you to be able to beat a boss and have the rewards be useless.
On the other hand being able to skip things with very little effort isn't good design.

[tepid crown]

i mean technically yeah

[keen zodiac]

and make it fun

[glass arch]

remove the mathematically impossible to win aspect and yeah

mathematically impossible to win bosses are from the outset poorly concieved and no boss should EVER strive to be mathematically impossible

and exos didnt ever strive for that

[keen zodiac]

i mean in like
the vibes department

[drowsy plank]

it's crazy that we're out here saying exos and distortion trio are the worst bosses when ravager is right there

[gilded citrus]

You see, ravager is incredibly easy to ignore

[keen zodiac]

he got a bandaid over the gaping bullet hole now that the walls have collision

[drowsy plank]

fair enough

[keen zodiac]

and isn't important to the story at all

[vocal wedge]

It's the 'lore explanation', Draedon creating machines that should have a 100% chance of killing you but you defeat them anyway, surpassing literally impossible odds.

Not like, the actual design goal while making them.

Since that would be really easy.

[keen zodiac]

yeah that

[vocal wedge]

Just make them invincible and one shot.

[whole tundra]

Those walls are extremely polarizing

Some people like them and others think they are the worst thing ever introduced

(I'm on the latter side)

[keen zodiac]

i just don't care at all

[drowsy plank]

the collision is good, the problem is ravager is still bad

so he's just mid

[whole tundra]

I find them to make the fight much worse as they either make you quit attacking for a bit while putting yourself at large risks, do some strange movement and hopefully have a piercing weapon so you can fire through the walls after going underneath them (going over them is basically no use), hastily attempt dodging ravager with more strange movement, or spam ramdashes!

[half imp]

-# as is any boss that really forces you to learn their game

[indigo yacht]

big fan of how the walls don't actually do anything

oh boy now i have to turn around instead of just running in a straight line

revolutionary

[tepid crown]

for what was originally a fabsol boss, id say thats quite revolutionary

[keen zodiac]

[half imp]

this is more thought than 90% of the rest of the mod asks for

[indigo yacht]

interesting suggestion

[kind laurel]

hey at least they aren't just Duke Fishron

It saddens me to say I'm referring to multiple other bosses with that

[kind laurel]

MoP bosses are just kinda useless compared to Polter

the progression the mod wants you to go is Provi -> MoP trio (with Polter as an optional challenge) -> DoG

but in reality anyone who knows the game just goes Provi -> Polter -> DoG

Unless you need something specific from one of them there's genuinely no reason to ever fight a single one, let alone all three

I'd suggest to fix it but I can't think of a way to do that that isn't flaggable for high effort

[deft yew]

contrary to what unique ai gifs would have you believe, fight quality has nothing to do with code or concept quality

old duke manages to be an acceptable fight because duke fishron is good

[frail mantle]

i been saying this!!!!!

[deft yew]

exos ai is original but completely and utterly worthless flaming garbage

[kind laurel]

what about Yharon

[deft yew]

yharon strays a bit from being a cleanly acceptable fight because he strays a bit from duke fishron

he's fine though

[indigo yacht]

i like yharon a lot
his main problem is the 18 attacks that do nothing

[kind laurel]

I honestly didn't have a problem with Exos but I do kinda have low standards so idk

[spare bison]

i disagree with concept quality
idt a fight wtih a bad concept will be particularly good

as you said yourself, od is just Acceptable

[deft yew]

Eternity Old Duke

[limber drift]

Doesn’t yharon also take some parts from betsy or am I just miremembering parts of yharon

[frail mantle]

he does

[deft yew]

most any concept is workable to some kind of extent

that does not make them good

[frail mantle]

or at least did before i can't speak on the current state of the fight

[deft yew]

carpet bomb attack is 1:1 betsy

except the splitting part

[kind laurel]

speaking of splitting are exos worse than deus though

[deft yew]

highkey deus is the worst boss

[kind laurel]

I can't imagine "worm but oh now there's two and they don't syncronize at all" is any better

shame because the concept and theme song are epic

[deft yew]

that's literally everything in the mod bro

[limber drift]

Nah deus is cool conceptually and isn’t like just completely random chaos imo

[deft yew]

deus DEFINES completely random chaos

[kind laurel]

Deus has a more interesting concept than most I think

the ost is pretty fair though I just have bias towards it

'cause I like that kind of mood in a song

[indigo yacht]

truth nuke

[deft yew]

it has four attacks that all do nearly the same thing, they all run on freely overlapping timers, the way it moves is incomprehensible and completely changes with no warning, it gets way faster in every sense as it takes damage

any weapon with any range limit (hailstorm bullet, true melee) feels near unusable on deus unless you can dps race it

[indigo yacht]

deus is a sleeper pick for worst boss because when you think of the worst boss you think of like, ravager or exos or whatever but deus is arguably worse than all of them

[deft yew]

rav and exos can be made reasonable or even braindead if you know how to abuse them

there is no abuse with deus

[plush flame]

the abuse is using one of a billion weapons that genuinely butcher it

[indigo yacht]

i wouldn't say how abusable a boss is has much of an effect on how bad it is
if anything a more abusable boss would be worse

[kind laurel]

like Destroyer

at least in Vanilla

All I remember is that CalDestroyer is a pushover

[deft yew]

abusable bosses give you the chance to not make you want to put your head through a wall

[plush flame]

yeah

[indigo yacht]

ok thats fair

[plush flame]

imo if the boss sucks but is abusable its not as unhealthy as an amazing boss thats easily abusable

[kind laurel]

abusable bosses make the boss objectively worse 100% of the time since they effectively let you skip it
Sometimes the boss is so bad that effectively skipping it is preferable to fighting it

doesn't make skipping it good game design

[deft yew]

sometimes the boss makes you want to put your head through a wall and you can't do anything about the fact

[indigo yacht]

depends on what metric you're measuring by

"goodness" isn't really quantifiable

[kind laurel]

fair

[lavish yoke]

mrrp meow meow

[deft yew]

if a bad boss isn't abusable you HAVE to have a bad time. if it is, you can get it over with and move on with your life

[indigo yacht]

i would measure by enjoyment from the players as the main thing (sometimes bad bosses are still fun) and sometimes being able to skip dogshit makes it more bearable

[kind laurel]

I honestly don't measure that way
Like a super powerful weapon that breaks through everything is fun but horrible for the game

player is having fun sure but it still sucks

[lavish yoke]

tf kinda example is that

😭

[deft yew]

i do not have fun with gear that makes the game free

also yeah

[kind laurel]

is vanilla Terra Blade not fun?
Is it not overcentralizing?

[lavish yoke]

its not fun i dont like melee

[indigo yacht]

in general i would always say a boss that's badly designed but still enjoyable to fight is "better" than a boss that's well designed but isn't fun to fight

[lavish yoke]

also thats still not a great example

[limber drift]

Its fake m*lee it isn’t fun its discount mage/ranger

[deft yew]

what boss is well designed but not fun

that sounds paradoxical

[kind laurel]

yeah

[kind laurel]

why not?

(genuine question not sarcasm or anything)

[gilded citrus]

I use terra blade for hype moments and aura not for its actual goodness as a weapon

[indigo yacht]

well designed as in it's tied into the systems of whatever game in question and doesn't have any unfair mechanics
usually the reason why it wouldn't be fun is just that it's boring or the mechanics it uses are tedious or unenjoyable (which i would say is a fault of the game not the boss)

[gilded citrus]

I do not know how it stacks to other melee weapons

[indigo yacht]

admittedly I can't think of any examples off the top of my head

[kind laurel]

it's busted in Vanilla at least

[indigo yacht]

i would have said ultrakill leviathan but they updated it to be pretty neat

[deft yew]

good design makes things fun though

[lavish yoke]

flying dragon or whatever its called

influx waver

[kind laurel]

I as well

[kind laurel]

Flying Dragon is really difficult to get compared to Terra Blade

[deft yew]

terra blade is difficult to get if you're neither a monoclass nor a hoarder

[kind laurel]

yeah it's a sidegrade but you have to beat Golem then do what is possibly the hardest event in the game
Terra Blade is free after Plantera

[indigo yacht]

ok well moving the other direction i can definitely think of bad bosses that are fun to fight, typically because they encourage the use of fun strategies or mechanics to overcome the tedious/bullshit parts of the fight

[kind laurel]

Influx Waver used to be better but after 1.4.4 rework Terra Blade sweeped it

[deft yew]

bad bosses that are fun uhh

[kind laurel]

It might be better in niche circumstances but Terra Blade is generally just insane

[deft yew]

i think Everdark Libra takes the cake

[kind laurel]

next to Vampire Knives

[lavish yoke]

scourge of the corruptor?

[deft yew]

arguably a good boss that's not fun is Morgott, who has insane mechanical depth and balance but doesn't ask you engage with it because his stats are too low

he's fun when you restrict yourself

[kind laurel]

no

just Vampire Knives

[indigo yacht]

anyways deus sucks hopefully it'll be reworked sooner rather than later

[kind laurel]

lifesteal is very balanced

[lavish yoke]

:(

[indigo yacht]

i think soon it might require you to kill both worms on every difficulty which is a good change

[kind laurel]

yes

[kind laurel]

wait that wasn't already a thing

[indigo yacht]

you only need to on death

[lucid marsh]

https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/263382359397761025/1507411446991028325

shouldn't this be flagged

its based on a fundamental misunderstanding AND is out of scope for the mod

[gilded citrus]

Oh probably then

[oblique birch]

I love Morgott

I don't have to progress past him with my current save so whenever I feel like it I can just hop in and play dodging game

[worthy fractal]

did terra blade get nerfed in cal because it feels so ass to use there

[kind laurel]

buffs it actually

but power creep probably

[dire warren]

it did receive a nerf in brainstorm

but it's still a decent weapon

[kind laurel]

went from being highly buffed in Cal to being buffed by 10 damage

so it's still buffed

[oblique birch]

deserved

it has good range and very easy to use it shouldn't be S in the first place

[polar bison]

Honestly probably the best compromise

There’s been a weirdly high amount of debate about how damage penalty is communicated

[surreal pebble]

#suggestions-posting message
I feel like this would just cause the stat block to just be bloated especially if you don't multi class. It would be more annoying than anything

[sleek turret]

mmmm what if the summoner penalty didn't exist

[calm knot]

[tardy geyser]

i think summons would have to be nerfed and whips would have to be buffed, to not make multiclassing op

[glass arch]

summons would have to be incredibly nerfed yeah

[tardy geyser]

culling summon slots would also help

[plush flame]

universal 3/4 damage mult for summons i think

[drowsy plank]

just put it on shift like most text blurbs

[misty lichen]

“hold shift to see one line of text shorter than the line of text telling you to hold shift”

[half imp]

so true

I'll be honest knowing summoner penalty exists doesn't matter 95% of the time

or more

The penalty itself matters but it existing very rarely actually has effect on how you build

[fossil finch]

dark woke opinion is to remove it #whogivesashitanymore

[kind laurel]

guys people are using weapons from another class we can't let them get away with this

25% less damage go

[half imp]

I would prefer summoner using its own active weapons not flat out just being worse

So penalty remains

[kind laurel]

now summoner isn't overpowered since every other class gets buffed from it

anyway on this topic

A suggestion I've had for a while

would it be a good idea to suggest some sort of accessory that negates/nullifies the penalty for class mixers?

there's a cost to it so it's not broken

accessory slots are very valuable

[drowsy plank]

id rather have an accessory that incentivizes class mixing... outside of summoner

[half imp]

there's already armors to remove penalty

[lucid marsh]

It should be trivially easy to just make minions weaker by default and then make the combination of summon armor, accessories, and whips add up to what you had before

[half imp]

I don't think accessories need to

[half imp]

not at all, not when there's so many items with so much interplay between them

[lucid marsh]

Instead of having a percentage penalty, just lower the base damage of all minions by 25% or whatever

[half imp]

that doesn't fix the problem at all

[lucid marsh]

None of that matters if you make it standardized

It would totally fix it

[glass arch]

"we dont need the nerf so instead of making the nerf we make the exact same nerf"

[lucid marsh]

Well no it's not about that

[half imp]

? I don't get what you mean

[lucid marsh]

You need a nerf, you don't need an extra tacked on mechanic to implement it

[half imp]

not really no

[glass arch]

except summoner doesnt need a nerf

well it does but thats more whips specifically

[half imp]

Well, summoner does, but even when it does get a nerf multiclass with summoner will still need a harsher nerf that what summoner gets

[lucid marsh]

Decrease the base damage of every minion but 25% and increase the minion damage boost applied by whips by 10% and give all summoner armor an extra 10% summon damage boost

[half imp]

This would not work

25% less base damage is not a 25% overall power nerf

[lucid marsh]

Oh

That's surprising and strange

[glass arch]

it shouldnt be

[lucid marsh]

But in that case you should just be... Balancing summoner

[glass arch]

yeah the summoner multiclass nerf is part of that

[lucid marsh]

Like you are going to have to balance summoner anyways so balance it without an abstract extra mechanic

Even if the exact numbers I proposed are wrong, this doesn't change the fact that the multi class penalty mechanic is taking the place of what you're supposed to achieve by putting damage bonuses on armor and such

[glass arch]

and now you've replaced the one issue with another issue

[lucid marsh]

What other issue?

[glass arch]

that being summoner being even more reliant on accessories and armor than it currently is

[lucid marsh]

Whips are the "and such"

[lucid marsh]

Is that actually an issue? It solves summoner multi classing

[glass arch]

yes

because you know what issue it causes

[lucid marsh]

Summoner's baseline damage is the multi class damage, and you make it a proper viable full class with other items

[glass arch]

armor mixing being even MORE impossible than it already is

[lucid marsh]

Armor mixing is a joke

You do not mix armors

You should not mix armors

[glass arch]

tell that to vanilla where thats half of every build ever

you should in fact be able to mix armors

[lucid marsh]

It is a gimmick for early game mage and also a mistake that exists because of the OOA crossover

[glass arch]

armor being usable should not be tied to you having a set bonus

[drowsy plank]

im ngl the only times armor mixing unironically comes up I feel is like when base armor sets are failing to cover a niche (or even a large chunk of players, looking at you shroomite)

[lucid marsh]

Exactly

Or when vanilla screws up by giving a helmet the stats of a chest plate

(looking at you OOA)

[lucid marsh]

I don't see a good reason this has to be the case

Regardless, suppose you ignore armor

[glass arch]

now summoner is either made by the accessories or whips are the class

[lucid marsh]

Imagine that minions baseline power is what you get when you multi class currently, just its baked in instead of a penalty

Give the boost to whips

This is good actually

Whips are fine

[drowsy plank]

i still disagree with removal of the penalty; i think the summoner penalty is fine because it makes sure summons are at their strongest when actually within their own class instead of them just being something EVERYONE uses and just makes other classes stronger instead

it's just that i think armor mixing is not nearly as fun or interesting as people usually talk about it as

[lucid marsh]

The whips are made not ridiculous by buffing minion damage rather than doing direct damage

[glass arch]

that doesnt make them not ridiculous

[lucid marsh]

I think you're making a mistake, you can get the exact same end result without the arbitrary extra penalty mechanic

[drowsy plank]

i dont think it's arbitrary and just slapping a shitton of summoner tag onto its other weapons is not a solution

[glass arch]

a whip having good damage is a factor in it being ridiculous sure but even if kaleido and morning star had 4 base damage they would still be ridiculous because of their buffs

[lucid marsh]

If you nerf minions across the board the same amount that the penalty would, and then make whips and equivalent items buff them more, you get the same result

[lucid marsh]

Suppose you couldn't see stats at all when playing and only felt based on performance. The end result would be identical

[drowsy plank]

the problem with that assumption is how sentries and whips actually play into that equation. people will at least use whips, we know that much, but where does that leave sentries? or typeless weapons? or even non-whip summoner actives? this is just such a slippery slope of unnecessary counter-balancing niches that are avoided by just. having the penalty.

the penalty means it is a passive issue, your proposal makes it an active balance problem the devs need to solve. for every weapon. individually

[lucid marsh]

I guess I can see your point here

I don't like adding extra mechanics, but it's undeniably easier

I do feel like maybe there could be a better way

[glass arch]

there is its universal rdr

[lucid marsh]

What if summoner had a mechanic loosely comparable to rogue's stealth that wasn't tied to any specific weapon?

[glass arch]

thats summon slots

[lucid marsh]

Ok so like. The summoner penalty is a mini version of universal rdr in terms of how it technically solves things

[lucid marsh]

No. Something you have to interact with actively and can't to while you're using another weapon

I should have been more specific

Idk what exactly.

[lucid marsh]

Although. This is actually a good point. Why don't minion slots fix this issue?

Assuming you don't swap out another class accessory for one that adds minion slots

Dedicated summoners should have way more minion slots and therefore should be way better

[glass arch]

they do have a lot more slots

[lucid marsh]

Except for some reason I guess minion slots don't scale like you would intuitively expect them to

[glass arch]

minions are just weird

[lucid marsh]

Yeah

I guess the solution is "make minions not weird"

Make each minion apply I frames independently of each other or something

[glass arch]

im pretty sure thats what they do

[lucid marsh]

Oh

[limber drift]

Yeah isn’t that like how 90% minions work iirc

[lucid marsh]

Then why are minion slots not effective

At balancing summoner

Do we need minion slots to scale exponentially or something?

[glass arch]

so you would think they behave like a damage multiplier

and in fact with early slots they do

[lucid marsh]

Yeah exactly

[glass arch]

but summons are not a continuous stream of damage

[lucid marsh]

What's up with that then

[glass arch]

they can miss, they have downtime, etc

[lucid marsh]

Even then, why aren't they a damage multiplier?

[glass arch]

so going from 1 slot to 2 slots is not a 2x multiplier, its more like a 1.5x multiplier

[lucid marsh]

I understand that this may be true somehow but I don't understand why that actually happens

[limber drift]

Also since without any summoner accessories or armours you can get to 3 minions slots through bewitching and summoner, so the next summon slot is only a 1.33x multiplier, then its only a 1.25x multiplier, etc

[lucid marsh]

...what if minions apply a kind of summon tag that only buffs other minions, not themselves

And it stacks

[glass arch]

doesnt fix the issue

[limber drift]

That would be both very unintuitive and confusing, and if its a normal kind of summon tag would be flat damage and thus be broken on some minions and pathetic on others

[lucid marsh]

You sure? It makes minion slots a damage multiplier

Yeah I mean more like a percentage based summon tag

[glass arch]

the same still goes

pathetic on some broken on others

[lucid marsh]

Or hell what if your minion slots just act as a weak damage multiplier

[glass arch]

they do

they inherently do

[lucid marsh]

No like on top of the existing thing

[glass arch]

see this is just adding more mechanics

[lucid marsh]

Granted this is getting back into the territory of arbitrary nonsense mechanics. Yeah

[glass arch]

the exact thing you were trying to avoid

[lucid marsh]

And my entire goal was to avoid doing that

If you're going to add mechanics, they should at least be something the player interacts with

Summon tag is a good mechanic because the player interacts directly with it

[glass arch]

in the case of the summon damage penalty it is fine for it to not be interactive

[lucid marsh]

I don't like it on principle of it being a mostly hidden mechanic

[glass arch]

its not a punishment/reward scenario

[lucid marsh]

Why exactly do minion slots not work out to be a direct multiplier? Why does 2 slots become 1.5x damage?

It would make sense if minion I frames interfered with each other, but they don't, right?

[glass arch]

its not exact math there with the 1-2 being a 1.5x but its because minions have attacking behavior

[lucid marsh]

I still don't get it, unless the behavior of one minion affects the behavior of another

[glass arch]

they can miss, they can attack the wrong thing, they can forget to attack

[drowsy plank]

dont forget whatever the fuck is going on with vanilla summon iframes

[lucid marsh]

If each minion can do that individually, then it should make no difference and just be a flat multiplier

[lucid marsh]

What is going on with it?

[drowsy plank]

(i know what's going on with them its low flat damage bonus fuckery that would make them busted if they weren't made janky on purpose)

[lucid marsh]

IMO, each individual minion should inflict I frames that affects that same minion only and no other minion

Fix this, and suddenly it should become much easier to balance summoner via summon slots

[glass arch]

thats how it works

most minions dont have conflicting iframes

[lucid marsh]

your explanation for minions being the way the are cannot account for the observed result. It doesn't make sense.

If minion A misses it's attacks 25% of the time, adding minion B which also misses 25% of it's attacks should still be a 2x multiplier

It's just twice as many attacks that miss 25% of the time

[glass arch]

you would assume so

thats what i would assume too

[lucid marsh]

No, I know so, unless something else is going on that you're not aware of

[glass arch]

but minions are WEIRD

[lucid marsh]

Example: if minions affect each other's behavior by existing

[limber drift]

They do sometimes iirc but only in a minor way, such as some of them lining up behind the player when not attacking which means the first ones presence causes the second one to be moved back but that obviously wouldn’t effect dps majorly

[glass arch]

again this is logic that SHOULD work but it DOESNT because minions are strange

[half imp]

Because using a summoner build with a gun often outperforms a summoner build with a whip

Even with penalty

[lucid marsh]

Ok.

Then fix whips. Make the minions do less damage, and make the whip buff their damage, until that statement is no longer true

[half imp]

in most cases it is, except for minions that scale with slots like dragon or Saros, and some early prehardmode minions