suggestions-discussion

[sand marlin]

The Evolution reflects a projectile but does not prevent onhit effects

[harsh echo]

[sand marlin]

Your adrenaline is still reduced by a bit

[harsh echo]

Is the reduction a smaller amount than usual?

[sand marlin]

Yes

[olive saddle]

Eh? Really?

I'd consider it at least OK

[golden sonnet]

It's worse than like, 10 other defensive/rounded items at that tier

[sand marlin]

You don't even get additional health you have 100 health as you revive because the fatal damage isn't prevented

[harsh echo]

Nebulous doesn’t give significant I frames

so you can just die instantly after “reviving”

[golden sonnet]

Exactly those things yes, it lacks everything that makes a revive good, iframes and health

It's essentially 100 health every 90 seconds and nothing more

Which is just straight worse than the like 5 items which give actual max health at that tier, not only not being on a timer but actually effecting your regen

[sand marlin]

And only if you happen to trigger it

[idle dagger]

I knew nebulous core was bad but damn I didn’t know it was that bad

I think the fact that you get nebulous core at the same time you unlock an extreme amount of new accessories (post-DoG accessory increase is nuts) really doesn’t help it either

[drowsy plank]

very true

it would help if the stars didn't have spore sac spawning conditions of needing walls

[crude geode]

277 - Nebulous Core's stars no longer require solid collision nearby to spawn. - Done ✅

[drowsy plank]

yeah that's a good start

i remember it from changelogs

but there's still the issues with the revive itself like raesh mentioned

[crude geode]

yeah, plus like dire said being in post-dog acc. hell

ig you could use it for moons but even then

[drowsy plank]

moons

[crude geode]

it would be nice if moons' normal enemies matter but no, 500 minibosses spawning at once

[echo leaf]

farming the eclipse is the most fun since most (or all) of the enemies are weak and affected by collision

so it’s fun to optimize setups to get as much as possible as quickly as possible

the moons are just relentless agony

[median scaffold]

I hate moons and especially the fact that most of them are required to make most accessories that would be useful for them

Like, why....

[drowsy plank]

old calamity be like

[idle dagger]

Someone should make a balance suggestion for nebulous core !

In the balance issues channel!

[echo leaf]

No

[median scaffold]

Yeah, sure
Go ahead

[hexed hamlet]

there is already

set plans for perennial

[harsh echo]

👀

[hexed hamlet]

it will be a glorified wood set on its current placement and used only for armor
you would make it with a new material in the perennial minibiome (yes its getting a minibiome, currently named floral paradise), the material is called perennial bark (really hardened bark) + a new gem type that is p much a living shard replacement (this gem type would play around storing life force and then using it for cool stuff once its meter is full)

the armor will still be tank, utility and mobility although reworked visually and function wise (still same base plan tho

the weapons would all die but

there will be a sword(Macuahuitl) and a bow (athlatl)

[harsh echo]

Woooo

[hexed hamlet]

that work around support

[harsh echo]

what are the names inspired by

[hexed hamlet]

the set will be aztec related in its visuals

its just the

aztec sword and the dart thrower

[grim tusk]

Welp you spilled the beans

[hexed hamlet]

its already spilled

in spoiler talk

[grim tusk]

Iirc this was supposed to be a secret

[hexed hamlet]

(not really)

[harsh echo]

what's happening to life alloy?

[hexed hamlet]

as it has been talked multiple times

life alloy will be kept

all the armor and perennial set stuff are my ideia and plans anyway so i can just talk about it

[golden sonnet]

tools too or no (perennial doesn't need tools at all, but I don't feel strongly either way, just curious)

[hexed hamlet]

(minibiome already revealed publically for a long time too)

[hexed hamlet]

tools possibly

why not

[golden sonnet]

That's fiar, they don't need to exist really if they don't have a niche, but doesn't hurt I guess

[grim tusk]

With code name: “The Green” wasnt it

[hexed hamlet]

no

floral paradise

[grim tusk]

Based on the biome Dom/Lucille was making before she left

[hexed hamlet]

floral paradise is a codename too

so anyway

[grim tusk]

Ah got renamed alr

[hexed hamlet]

ye

[grim tusk]

I was out of the loop then

[hexed hamlet]

but that isnt the set name

ye

but well the perennial dillema already has a sollution

and plans set for it

so suggs about it wont really be taken

[violet zephyr]

Will Viral Spout have a spiritual successor?

(Only unique Perrenial weapon)

[hexed hamlet]

possibly

it can just be moved to be obtained in the

perennial minibiome itself

[grim tusk]

Or crafted with Chlorophyte

[hexed hamlet]

dropped from a enemy there or as a ambient tile

[violet zephyr]

Fair.

[golden sonnet]

it being a plant would be sick

like lillies

[violet zephyr]

Similar to Lilies

Yes.

[hollow shell]

Indeed I remember that.

[golden sonnet]

or it could be a tree drop

like fruit

[drowsy plank]

is it gonna be in jungle

[hollow shell]

The iteration I remember was in purity underground

[violet zephyr]

I'm not sure why, but when you said "tree drop", I was thinking of a propagule.

[novel belfry]

why is that not surprising to me?

[novel belfry]

Please do

[hollow verge]

based and real sugg

[nimble totem]

I mean isn't there the Devourer of Cods?

It's not auric, it's cosmilite, but imo you don't really need anything stronger

[light birch]

But consider

You could

[harsh echo]

[hexed hamlet]

burnt sienna has plans already

(sunken sea related)

it works really well for them to drop from tomb crawlers too if you analyze their name

(basically burnt sienna will now drop from the undead shoaldier enemies in sunken sea and also from tomb crawler, as it raid the tombs of the soldiers)

[echo leaf]

UNDEAD SHOALDER

I LOVE IT

[violet zephyr]

You laugh, but those are dead people.

[echo leaf]

I would kill if I got to enjoy a pun afterwards

[hexed hamlet]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/458743905957969970/1273396162618982512/swingl-2.gif

(by tobias)

but this is one of the shoaldiers

expect sienna to be themed around that

[echo leaf]

oh I LOVE the little eyes

[boreal lichen]

So this is an SSO enemy

[gray bone]

this is very in-character

[olive saddle]

nuh uh its a HHL enemy

uhh

heavy highlanded love enemy????

[ripe owl]

How is that an antonym for Sunken Sea Overhaul

[median scaffold]

Borrowed Land ruin

[olive saddle]

i reversed the letters

i definitely didnt have to look it up

[median scaffold]

HABER (OF) HAVING LOVE MENTIONED??!?!?

[sand marlin]

#suggestions-posting message how many times has this been suggested now actually

(References are not allowed

[robust dawn]

thats a refrence?

idk ive never played ultrakill

i just think it would be fun

[sand marlin]

Okay let's think about this for a second

How would the Titanium Railgun even hit the coins

It takes some time to charge up and the coins will be gone by then

[harsh echo]

Titanium Railcannon

[sand marlin]

It also cannot use Marksman Rounds as it does not use ammunition, which makes it not eligible for the job like normal guns would be

It's pretty much a reference and an idea that doesn't really work as well as not having any reasoning to back it up

[robust dawn]

you can charge it halfway

[harsh echo]

Add the entirety of ultrakill to calamity

[whole tundra]

would be a cool reference

[robust dawn]

thats not what im saying, ive never even played ultrakill

also just because something exists in another game, doesnt necesarily make it a refrence

[whole tundra]

It's very clearly a reference

[sand marlin]

Well the coins are literally a reference to ultrakill in the first place

[robust dawn]

its like saying attacking is a refrence to ultrakill since you can attack there aswell

[violet zephyr]

This is specifically a bullet-only mechanic.

[sand marlin]

Either way there is no reasoning in this suggestion

[umbral gazelle]

sir this is like ultrakillion suggestion about titanium railgun + crackshot colt

AND

titanium railgun fire BOLT at extremely fast velocity NOT LASER

[whole tundra]

Oh yeah it's a because I want it/it would be cool suggestion

[robust dawn]

lets think about it logically, literally what wouldn't be a "it would be cool" reason behind a suggestion, its a game anyways, everything really just comes down to i want it, like the stars dont align just for your suggestion to be "reasonable" like what do you want me to give you scientific evidence?

like any suggestion would really just be "i want it"

[sand marlin]

You'd be breaking the rules for suggestion posting. There is no avoiding this

You need a proper reasoning

[robust dawn]

well define proper reasoning

[sand marlin]

Look at some suggestions that have passed and been accepted in #suggestions-voting

Should give you some ideas

[robust dawn]

actually you know what idk why im argueing i really dont care all that much, whatever im just deleting my suggestion

thanks i guess

[sand marlin]

[harsh echo]

let’s be kind

[drowsy plank]

very strange situation

i dunno why they'd suggest specifically titanium railcannon if they've never played ultrakill

there are tons of ammoless weapons that dont interact with coins at all

[robust dawn]

i dont know it just seemed cool, sorry

[drowsy plank]

as mentioned, just please read the rules in the pinned document next time before posting

[robust dawn]

yeah my apologies

[drowsy plank]

it's really no big deal we get dozens of these so you dont need to apologize; you seem to get the idea and it was removed so it's better than most people who violate them

[gaunt needle]

suggestion: make titanium railgun consume rails from the inventory

(actual suggestion: make it consume something, why does it make projectiles from air)

[crude geode]

Because there’s plenty of weapons that don’t consume ammo?

In terms of ranged weaponry

[harsh echo]

Ye

terraria doesn’t make cents

[gaunt needle]

yeah true, we should add things that make even less sense then

make railgun projectiles bounce of coins

[drowsy plank]

<_<

anyway this is actually a good suggestion

i never really thought about it but this would help

i wonder if you could just use the dungeon spirit sprite or something

since yknow dungeon already is connected to ectoplasm and the bright blue would contrast well with the white skulls

[crude geode]

Yeah this suggestion makes a lot of sense

Really important to tell projectiles apart

[hollow shell]

I feel like the title could be a bit more clear cuz at first I thought they were asking for a whole new attack

[frozen hornet]

Titan rail would be awful to do railcoins with

Ultrakill's railgun fires instantly which makes it way easier

Calamity's railgun takes like a second to charge before firing which makes it atrocious to hit coins with

This is the reason it wasn't added way back when midas prime got added

[crude geode]

@lapis warren you may want to adjust the title of your suggestion. It sounds more like you want a new attack and less like you want more of a telegraph on his current attacks

[echo leaf]

A boss suggestion that's... not dogshit ass? A boss suggestion that's GOOD? Impossible...

[lapis warren]

✅

[hollow shell]

Better, thank you

[drifting chasm]

Why are tier 2 evil boss loot shimmerlocked until after said tier 2 evil boss is dead

its not like you can get the loot before the boss is dead anyways right?

[golden sonnet]

they are?

isn't it just the summon items?

teratoma/bloody worm food

[grim tusk]

Yes, just the summon items

[drowsy plank]

The Teratoma cannot be decrafted until The Hive Mind has been defeated.```

yeah

idk what he's talking about

[golden sonnet]

which is for fargos crossmod iirc

and isn't really an obstruction in any normal playthough so it doesn't hurt to have in the main mod

[drifting chasm]

Im tripping, i must have thought they all were locked after seeing the summon items were whoops

so its cuz of another mod

[golden sonnet]

yeah, the reason the summons are locked is purely because of another mod, as calamity removed the summons from being sold before the shiimmer lock was even implimented

so on the one hand, it's something the mod that makes it an issue could fix itself and doesn't need to be in the main mod. On the other hand it shouldn't ever be relevant in any normal playthrough, so it doesn't hurt to be in the main mod

[misty lichen]

and infernum

i think

[golden sonnet]

ah, didn't know infernum did that too

that would make sense

[harsh echo]

how disastrous

[misty lichen]

basically any addon that wants you to fight the boss like it’s real and serious will let you get the summon items early so it makes sense

[scarlet musk]

im thinking of writing a suggestion about making sentries more reliable and less gimmicky:
-half of them either can barely manage to hit enemies or deal terrible damage, or both
-calamity has zero support for ways to optimize/minmax sentries
-they're generally neglected in amount of weapons and balance

the cryogenic staff has tracking, with even its projectile velocity increasing to hit faster enemies, which is super cool. it also has a neat gimmick and stacks well

but its also reliable

it can actually hit stuff

it deals good damage

you can put it anywhere

[north oracle]

Cal is entirely overhauling summoner balance for their next major update, so anything about them being weak is already getting sorted

(And having all sentries be a case of "drop it anywhere to shave a minute off your kt" isn't great)

[scarlet musk]

i think sentries should be viable to minmax. like you should be able to specifically spec into sentries

[hollow shell]

(and tbf on the minmax point, the vanilla Old One's Army kinda has the market cornered on sentry-based equipment already)

[echo leaf]

That will be the case iirc

[scarlet musk]

...which falls off past providence

[hollow shell]

Indeed there is no Post-ML OOA tier

[scarlet musk]

i think at least one set of sentry based armor, and a couple sentry based accessories that allow you to actually get another upgrade for the rest of the game after golem, would really help

[north oracle]

You can spec into sentries, yea

It's possible to have a sentry build into endgame

[scarlet musk]

not OOA, i think these things should be just original cal stuff

[hollow shell]

But yeah to Fluffy's point you probably are gonna wanna hold onto that suggestion until after the update releases, and re-evaluate what the state of sentries are then.

[north oracle]

Because OOA armor is very strong and cadaverous carrion is very strong also

[scarlet musk]

not really on topic but cadaverous carrion is such a lame sentry to have as your endgame weapon if you're doing sentries lol

well i guess you can use atlas but you only get one

it'd be cool if they added little machinegun sentries that cost 1/2 a sentry slot

[golden sonnet]

#calamity-update-talk message

this is your fate

[violet zephyr]

Y O U A R E N O T S A F E

[scarlet musk]

oh

[golden sonnet]

talk shit on the carrion get consumed

[scarlet musk]

i get that it conflicts with the gimmick but i wish atlas munitions beacon could be summoned multiple times and took sentry slots

[drowsy plank]

sentries are broken as fuck right now

[scarlet musk]

good or bad

[drowsy plank]

because they are basically untouched they're almost always strong

especially calamity's sentries

and ever since vanilla just gave you an extra sentry slot for free

[scarlet musk]

are sentries affected by the summoner debuff thing (25% less damage when not holding it or whatever)

[drowsy plank]

yes

[scarlet musk]

idk i feel like it could be fixed by having sentries deal less damage normally but getting a stacking damage bonus the more of them you summon

[drowsy plank]

it's because this is still true because calamity just doesn't balance around them so summoner, which already has whips which are also not factored in, just gets two extra free sources of damage and nukes everything

[scarlet musk]

having a greater ability to minmax sentries would reward you with damage while restricting other options

this thing just shoots a homing jpeg that deals a shitload of damage

idk i just think (most) sentries are so lame rn

i want them to be cooler, and i want to be able to spec into sentries

i wish they'd at least make them like actually able to hit enemies

[dense locust]

there are several sentries that are very good at hitting enemies

[scarlet musk]

aquas scepter and caustic croaker should be magic weapons, the polyp launcher misses half the time, the dreadmine staff... can only attack enemies next to walls? and doesn't even deal decent damage??? spikecrag is fine but outclassed by hive pod which is busted as hell, pulse turret can only be summoned once? for some reason? sanctified spark is outclassed by both moonlord sentries, which outclass everything until post devourer, and you have to kill exo mechs with a rotting head.

and then after all that, your reward is a sentry that also misses half its shots and can only be summoned once.

the other ones i didn't mention are mostly fine (squirrel squire (it could be a bit more interesting but its a starter weapon so oh well), rusty beacom prototype, harvest staff, cryogenic staff, orthocera shell, guidelight of oblivion)

guidelight of oblivion is also decent but outclassed by other on-tier sentries (cough ML sentries cough)

sanctified spark is fine i think but its damage is pretty bad

i think the dreadmine staff could be so much cooler and i just hope they do it the justice it deserves :p

[violet zephyr]

I love how half of these can be countered with "Just go to #1178515062030348308"

[dense locust]

dreadmine staff does far more than "decent damage", for one thing
for another, hive pod isn't even particularly strong compared to other sentries (namely cryogenic), it has homing sure but its raw damage is lower than just about every other ontier sentry afaik
spark is only "outclassed" by the ml sentries bc they're both absurdly powerful, spark itself is good

[scarlet musk]

obviously balance is a big problem but there are other problems too

[golden sonnet]

the issue with spark is that it's the same tier as moon lord sentries, so there are 3 at that tier. Crystal is best at close range, portal is good for multi target and long range, which leaves spark without a niche. Spark is a decent sentry it's just it's placement will always leave it the victim of balancing, either being strictly better than something or strictly worse. A retier to like, post providence with a buff to be slightly better than either crystal or portal would leave spark in a perfect spot

[drowsy plank]

wdym dreadmine can only attack enemies next to walls

[scarlet musk]

yeah this seems cool

[hollow shell]

Its homing mines only spawn near tiles, like Spore Sac, iirc

[scarlet musk]

bombs spawn next to tiles only i think

yeah

or walls maybe but i don't think so

[dense locust]

oh no, if only there was a large number of grounded bosses around this tier of progression

[drowsy plank]

that's not even how the demonstration gif shows it working and i dont remember it ever actually working like that in game

[violet zephyr]

Golem? Who's that?

[violet zephyr]

Astrum Aureus? Never heard of them.

[hollow shell]

I think it's a rather wide range
But it'll be noticeable if you're using a standard platform arena

[dense locust]

ravager? government psyop

[drowsy plank]

yes unsurprisingly the wiki can be wrong

[golden sonnet]

it's like a 10X10 cube above blocks yeah

[hollow shell]

Someone go test it.

Actually I'll ask in wiki disc that'd be better

[violet zephyr]

Half of the people who frequent there frequent here, too.

[drowsy plank]

if it does actually have that restriction to fix it... just remove the restriction like that's so arbitrary

[harsh echo]

Let’s include the other half too

[violet zephyr]

What the fuck is a "num6"???

I hate Terraria.

[scarlet musk]

i haven't done really thorough testing but my experience with dreadmine is that its damage was much less than other sentries of similar tiers. and hive pod has really high dps as far as i've seen

[hollow shell]

Old old decompiled code issue

[violet zephyr]

If anyone can figure out exactly what is going on with how the turret decides where to summon the bombs, be my guest:
https://github.com/CalamityTeam/CalamityModPublic/blob/8df3188613f37f469795c8845db41b9c5acaac65/Projectiles/Summon/DreadmineTurret.cs

[hollow shell]

I think any remaining instances of variables named "num"-something are from pieces of Calamity code that are.. old
From way back when Fabsol grabbed bits from a decomp'd vanilla source

[glass arch]

^

num-somethings were supposed to have been mostly eradicated

[frozen hornet]

Last time I used dreadmine I was disappointed because having two of them didn't seem to make more mines

[scarlet musk]

i was disappointed by the damage personally

[drowsy plank]

the tiercord messages are messy

[violet zephyr]

From what I can read, there are maximum amount of bombs that can spawn, so unless they're exploding fast, it isn't going to increase damage by much.

[drowsy plank]

but the first one after the dreadmine tests was mpg freaking out about dreadmine beating hive pod bc hive pod was also broken

[frozen hornet]

Yeah

Having a mine limit is no fun...

[scarlet musk]

idk if the version was different or if the tests were just different but i didn't share this experience at all

[violet zephyr]

You could technically make a hyper-optimised Dreadmine arena.

[scarlet musk]

exactly

[violet zephyr]

I assume the limit is there so that you don't summon five thousand mines if there are no enemies around to explode them.

[distant gyro]

dreadmine spawn condition is atrocious

[violet zephyr]

Hilarious.

[scarlet musk]

i hope they just rework it entirely

its a really sick concept, its execution could be better

(obviously)

[distant gyro]

sentries have a lot of issues that are sure to be dealt with in the rebalance

but they will continue to not be a focal point of summoner for the time being

[frozen hornet]

Having a softlock would be better imo
Smth smth each sentry summons mines at a set rate but the mines automatically explode after a timer so you don't get silly amounts of mines active at once
This also allows you to use 2 of them without being fucked over

[scarlet musk]

are they ever gonna be viable as an optimized build

[distant gyro]

they won't bear as much significance as minions

[scarlet musk]

like could you do a dog fight with just sentries, with sentry based armor and multiple sentry accessories

i mean obviously you can do that now but

[misty lichen]

youll always be able to

[distant gyro]

it depends on what happens with war table tbh

[drowsy plank]

idk why you would even want sentry viable builds tbh

congratulations you've made minions you have to spam click to be viable

[violet zephyr]

Congratulations! You have decided to abandon two thirds of a class!

[hollow shell]

(Most arenas are a somewhat enclosed space)

[drowsy plank]

okay and

[hollow shell]

(Restricted in area, at least. People don't really do world/skybridge arenas anymore)

(unless they're fighting Exos)

[dense locust]

I'm not people ig :(

[drowsy plank]

and ill do it again; sentries were a fuckin mistake

[distant gyro]

spam click cooldown imo

[hollow shell]

That one item from that one mod that puts a little platform on top of your head that you can place sentries onto so that they are bound to you

[distant gyro]

okay but isnt that just

the overhead flowers

[drowsy plank]

yes

[distant gyro]

you just spent a different kind of slot for them

[hollow shell]

Yes but you'd presumably need to sacrifice an acc slot to-

yeah

[distant gyro]

which i find is the issue

[violet zephyr]

Just make it part of a giant upgrade line, that will obviously solve the issue.

[distant gyro]

the point where sentries perfectly have the capabilities of a minion is where they should be minions instead

so sentries just have to be... restricted minions

[crude geode]

I’ve always disliked spam clicking being the optimal way to play sentries

Bc that’s just mage

[distant gyro]

well great since spam clicking sentries prevents you from using whips

[hollow shell]

👀

[distant gyro]

and whips grant bonuses to sentries so is it truly worth it

[crude geode]

Funny af

[violet zephyr]

https://calamitymod.wiki.gg/wiki/Wrath_of_the_Ancients

[sand marlin]

Sentries are fine with how they stay in one place, space management hits two birds with one stone after all

[crude geode]

Yes I’m aware

[scarlet musk]

because sentries are cool?? i couldn't care less about spam clicking or the meta, i think having a bunch of things that shoot your enemies are cool

[drowsy plank]

how are they cool

guess what that's what summons do

congrats you have made summons 2 but now they Don't Move With You And Everything Is Awful

[hollow shell]

cog calm down

[sand marlin]

I think the pulse turret and sentries like that are cool

I like just plopping down turrets

[crude geode]

There’s an entire genre of game for sentries

[distant gyro]

things that shoot enemies do describe minions to be fair

[scarlet musk]

yeah

[drowsy plank]

im fine i just dont understand why people would want a pure sentry viable set

sentries are neat as fun little bonus aoe tools for summoner and not much else

[scarlet musk]

this is your opinion and other people feel differently :p

[drowsy plank]

i legitimately want to know what the difference is between a Full Sentry Set and a Full Summoner Set

[crude geode]

Granted the genre is arguably dead aside from one game but like. it exists

[drowsy plank]

besides one clicking more often

[sand marlin]

Sentry only is pretty miserable yeah

This is why I don't do subclass challenges

[scarlet musk]

summons work in an area around you, sentries work with the environment around them, and having multiple gives each one its own environment to work with

[hollow shell]

I mean if spam clicking is still the meta and it's an annoying undesirable one
and whips exist
then
I feel like there's an avenue to alter the meta playstyle there?

[drowsy plank]

so both just work in different small areas

you either need to keep the boss around you or keep them around a certain point

[sand marlin]

I don't wanna just have to randomly spend time being miserable on a boss merely because of my limited weapon choice, which is usually not an issue with full classes

[drowsy plank]

which is you because bosses target you

[sand marlin]

I'd say sentry only is a self imposed thing

[hollow shell]

Accounting for a boss's movement to goad them into staying near a certain area is not something you need to do with any other class really
It's a more unique gameplay style, and that's cool to me

[scarlet musk]

ok but to be fair sentry only is a pretty bottom-of-the-barrel one. runs like flamethrower only for example are way more fun

[crude geode]

Indeed

[violet zephyr]

Sentry only is just as fun as whip only.

[drowsy plank]

lol

[sand marlin]

Flails are miserable sometimes, you don't even get rocket launchers in pre hardmode

[scarlet musk]

having to play around a specific area is unique. and you can still move them

[drowsy plank]

if you COULDN'T move them id agree more

[harsh echo]

i counted any launcher (special ammos) for a run once

[drowsy plank]

playing around a specific area is, at least, mildly interesting, but you can just relocate the sentries whenever you want, and the best sentries are just big clouds of projectiles

[scarlet musk]

i think its a fun challenge. it might not fit calamity's fast pace (especially exo mechs. sentries are AWFUL for exo mechs), but i still think there are ways to make them fun to use

[hollow shell]

Would somebody like to suggest a noticeable repositioning cooldown for sentries?

[scarlet musk]

per sentry slot?

[sand marlin]

Vanilla sentries already reset their attack cooldowns on resummon, Idk about cal sentries

Simply could be a cal sentry issue

[scarlet musk]

that could go along with the summon hud icons

[hollow shell]

Making it so sentries cannot attack for a second or two after being spawned would be another way of doing it.

[sand marlin]

That is what vanilla does yeah

[distant gyro]

i think cal sentries have cooldowns

[violet zephyr]

Or... the cooldown rack... with the rest of the cooldowns...

[distant gyro]

vanilla sentries used to not

[hollow shell]

(Beyond just resetting attack rate, I mean. When you have things that spam projectiles so fast that doesn't really matter)

[distant gyro]

but now they do

[sand marlin]

Weird why we're having this convo then

[scarlet musk]

i assumed you meant the sentry has a normal reset attack period after summoning, but that there was like a longer cooldown per sentry slot where you couldn't use the weapon again

[sand marlin]

Wait they aren't fixed cooldowns?

Guh

[distant gyro]

even more heavily so cryogenic staff which resets its entire slow ass windup

[hollow shell]

I do not know. I have not looked into this before.

Just goin based on what's bein said here

[scarlet musk]

yeah, i was just thinking it might be hard since you can have multiple, but maybe it would just have the cooldown circle and the number of available sentry placements in the middle

[sand marlin]

Sentries resetting is a vanilla mechanic we do not need a whole cooldown tracker for it

[scarlet musk]

vanilla flail only is super fun

[distant gyro]

actually what does lightning aura do when you resummon it

[scarlet musk]

nothing special

[sand marlin]

I guess I'll load up tMod at 6 am

[drowsy plank]

lmao

[scarlet musk]

hot take: lightning aura<<<<<explosive trap

[hollow shell]

((I mean, lifesteal cooldown is also a vanilla mechanic and Cal adds a rack indicator for that))

[sand marlin]

That's because it's like impossible to tell without it

[distant gyro]

its good we are not in 1.3

[sand marlin]

I didn't know lifesteal had a cooldown before cal mentioned it if I'm being honest

[scarlet musk]

i think they meant literally having like a 10 second cooldown after summoning a sentry before you can resummon it somewhere else

or at least thats how i interpreted it

[sand marlin]

And that goes back all the way to 1.4.5 or something

[distant gyro]

i think 1.3 players are all aware of how bad explosive trap was

[sand marlin]

Why would you ever do that though

[scarlet musk]

rahhhhh

[hollow shell]

My knowledge / the wiki may be outdated, but
so many lifesteal sources just do not obey the lifesteal cooldown. They bypass it.
So it's only actually a mechanic for a handful of lifesteal weapons/equipment

[crude geode]

Lifesteal is a mechanic for sure

[sand marlin]

What it has rn works, if it has issues with firerate then make it a fixed cooldown

[scarlet musk]

terraria is funny cause they'll buff an infamously bad or even just overshadowed/mid weapon to make it like actually good, and people won't even notice for years

[verbal aspen]

i think in bountiful harvest they changed a lot of lifesteal items to respect cooldown but heal more

[drowsy plank]

lifesteal cooldown works on weapons that use vanilla lifesteal

but many just. give you hp based on arbitrary constants instead

which is funny

[hollow shell]

Oh god if so I wonder how outdated our Lifesteal wiki page is...

[wide river]

Probably quite so

[sand marlin]

Stuff like bloodfire arrows finally give good regen

[verbal aspen]

yeah currently the wiki contradicts itself on like every weapon that was changed on bountiful harvest

[hollow shell]

I made that page with my bare hands near my first semester of college,
and now that I'm in my final semester, I must return to it again

[crude geode]

LMAO

My only real contribution to the wiki is making most of the stealth strike page and that was on fandom

[frozen hornet]

Full circle

[crude geode]

which was how we learned that mythril knives became stupid

[sand marlin]

Don't let the lifesteal cooldown fool you btw, Blood Boiler gives great regen and actually that is its main strength

[hollow shell]

Well as long as you did it before the wiki.gg migration then those edits are still here on our wiki

(unless you just mean 'dang that was a long time ago')

[crude geode]

A little of both

[verbal aspen]

i mean doesnt lifesteal cooldown hardcap all lifesteal sources to do the same thing

[distant gyro]

yes

[sand marlin]

Idk about that, what I know is what I tested

People fall into the misconception that lifesteal cooldown makes lifesteal weak or bad

Spoilers, it's good

[distant gyro]

how much hard lifesteal you get from lifesteal is entirely dependent on the rate in which the variable increases

[hollow shell]

anyway before we forget

Someone go in-game and get a sentry that fires really fast like Spikecrag (iirc) or Carrion (iirc) and keep resummoning it near an enemy
If it starts firing immediately upon getting resummoned, then,
yes some kind of additional cooldown is needed

Because even if its attack rate gets reset each summon, that's a negligible difference for super high fire rate sentries

[distant gyro]

which is difficulty dependent and not by individual weapons

[verbal aspen]

oh wait there are custom lifesteal variable gains for weapons?

i thought it was just equal to the amount of health healed

[distant gyro]

but you can gain things like natural life regen

idk if some weapons still do it

[hollow shell]

Yeah..
if/when I update that Lifesteal page I will need to add a new column for how much each instance of lifesteal adds to the lifesteal cooldown variable

[sand marlin]

From what I'm testing explosive trap seems to have a cooldown slightly longer than its attack speed but faster weapons I can't tell apart much

[distant gyro]

im almost 100% certain every source of lifesteal decrements 1 for each 1 life healed

[hollow shell]

Slightly longer than its attack speed, you say

[hollow shell]

Good if so. Intuitive that way.

[sand marlin]

Carrion starts shooting immediately

[distant gyro]

good but brings up this issue

[sand marlin]

Which makes sense with its firerate

So the cooldown, or at least from what I could tell on carrion, is based on firerate

Hm maybe explosive trap is the same

[echo leaf]

I think sentries would be a bit more intuitive and easily balanced if they just had a flat delay of one second or so

[distant gyro]

i think the sentry resummon cooldown isnt necessary if said sentry attacks 10 gajillion times a second

[hollow shell]

Alright so yeah
I feel like it'd be a valid suggestion to say "Make it so sentry summons cannot attack for a second or two upon being spawned."

To destroy the spam click resummon meta, and allow sentries to be focused more on their identity of being stationary, with the player and enemies moving around the sentry rather than the sentry moving to catch up with them (cuz that's what minions are)

[distant gyro]

thats why i asked about lightning aura

[sand marlin]

Lightning aura isn't very fast

[echo leaf]

As long as it's intuitive then I don't see anything wrong with having a few exceptions, like lightning aura

[distant gyro]

if lightning aura does have a significant resummon cooldown then so should something like spikecrag

[echo leaf]

Maybe you can tweak the VFX to make it clear what's going on

[hollow shell]

mhm mhm
The sentries could be rendered in grayscale at first and then get full color once they can attack, with a lil puff of particles upon transitioning

for example.

[distant gyro]

idk i thought it hit like 3 times per second which is more than like the none times per second flameburst shoots

[echo leaf]

Oh, I was thinking specifically for lightning aura but that works just fine too

Neat idea

[distant gyro]

so many vanilla sentries take like 5 centuries to shoot

[echo leaf]

Maybe some sentries could even have their resummon cooldown altered to give them a bit more unique an identity

[distant gyro]

and then spikecrag pulls up with the spike vomit

[hollow shell]

Hmm, be careful with that.
Ideally no sentries would have zero / noticeably short cooldowns

Because spam click meta is exactly what we're trying to kill

[hollow shell]

Yeah that is negligible.

[sand marlin]

What vanilla did probably was instead of making sentries start ready to fire they made them start as if they already fired basically and all sentries are using this which means the cooldown is based on attack speed

[hollow shell]

Yep that's exactly what I assumed as well

[distant gyro]

id still like to repeat that the spam click meta is probably dead when the power balance is 60 40 20 minion whip sentry

[crude geode]

Summoner at 120% power

[distant gyro]

at that point spam click sentry would only be beneficial if you deliberately avoid whips

[sand marlin]

Is Carrion dying

[crude geode]

Carrion tends to be dead, it’s like the concept of the word

[distant gyro]

of your average megashark shooting gun? yeah

deserves it i think

[frozen hornet]

A cadaverous one no less

[sand marlin]

Because I don't see why you can't just whip once then spam something like Carrion and repeat that with anything that comes close to it

Unless whips are going to have more raw damage

[distant gyro]

yeah

[sand marlin]

[hollow shell]

Oh god are they?

[sand marlin]

Yeah that'd do it

[distant gyro]

i think the consensus is that half the whip's contribution is from the whip itself

[hollow shell]

Summoner identity in shambles
Support tool becomes primary DPS

[crude geode]

Class identities in shambles, every weapon is cool

[distant gyro]

because even though the whip is quasi melee it feels unimpactful to have it do negligible damage

[crude geode]

Yeah

Let me annihilate bats with my endgame whip

[hollow shell]

Solve that through VFX n shit, not by making summoner into melee....

[distant gyro]

okay but

[sand marlin]

Snapthorn rush is back baby

[frozen hornet]

Well it still wouldn't be a major contributor

[distant gyro]

remember

[crude geode]

Taps the sign
No whip discussions

[distant gyro]

60 40 20

if you split the whip into tag and no tag its like 60 20 20 20

[echo leaf]

I suppose that makes sense
But that's why you're the dev and not me

[distant gyro]

20/120 are whip's direct damage

[frozen hornet]

Rover isn't a dev

[distant gyro]

that's not a big proportion to make summoner melee

[hollow shell]

Is that based on the current balance situation or is that a dev design goal?

[sand marlin]

I mean if it truly matches that formula then all will be good Ig

That's the goal

[hollow shell]

I was :<

[distant gyro]

rough goal estimate

[crude geode]

Ok grandpa let’s get you back to bed /lh j

[hollow shell]

Dang
Why sentries so deliberately shafted?

[frozen hornet]

you were not ":<" smh..

[distant gyro]

because this is a minion build

[frozen hornet]

Feel like whips are more engaging than sentries

[distant gyro]

you'd have like 6 minion slots and 1 sentry

[hollow shell]

Not previously established But okay I understand now

[distant gyro]

the 1 sentry can't possibly do more

[frozen hornet]

Also does cal make whips autoswing

[violet zephyr]

Yes.

[frozen hornet]

Aweso

[distant gyro]

i mean im sure you can deduce with the current sources for how you obtain sentry slots

[crude geode]

Vanilla makes everything autoswing atp iirc

fr fr

[distant gyro]

thats not stardust armour fuck that

[crude geode]

The funny

[violet zephyr]

Only if you turn on the setting.

[crude geode]

Ig if you wanna hurt your hand on certain weapons you could turn it off

[sand marlin]

It's moreso that it's disabled by default and people just don't know about it

[distant gyro]

yeah i dont see any reason why anyone wouldnt turn it on

its just really funny

[distant gyro]

other than That

we call it people not reading debuff

[sand marlin]

I don't think that's a people issue if I'm being honest

[distant gyro]

idk i usually try to go through configurations and settings before playing a game

[sand marlin]

See the thing is

[distant gyro]

im aware not everyone has the patience to do that

[hollow shell]

In some ways I feel like sentries have the potential to make summoner feel the most like summoner, more so than player-following minions
by feeling like you're cooperating with the sentries to damage the boss

If you put the sentry down and then run away 100 blocks then you're being a bad partner, not considering your ally's range
You have to be a Team by keeping close to em and only repositioning when it's necessary/strategic

[sand marlin]

People have done that already before it was introduced because that was a really late configuration option

So they would never recheck settings usually

Glad we have autofire

Omniswing still somehow existing

[sand marlin]

Wait

We should have a sentry that sets down literal terrarians with sniper rifles

[crude geode]

iirc that’s vaguely similar to a summoner weapon from thorium

https://thoriummod.wiki.gg/wiki/Nebula's_Reflection

[sand marlin]

[crude geode]

Minion form but yeah

[hollow shell]

If there was a sentry that had a really long charge-up attack that's telegraphed to fire in a specific area,
And it was up to you to get the boss into that area so that the attack can hit,
Maybe even strategically using that long-cooldown boss slow/stun mechanic that Calamity adds to keep it pinned there just long enough,

I would be so into that
That'd be like, hype, like that's a moment for an action/shonen climax

[glass arch]

oh yeah this

iirc its mid as hell

[crude geode]

Funny af tho

Which is what really matters in thorium

[sand marlin]

Giant fucking deathray that you have to lead the boss into

[hollow shell]

exactly

[frail fox]

Universe Splitter

[crude geode]

Reminds me of the alternate engineer turret from RoR Returns

[sand marlin]

Sorry not a real weapon shadowspec don't count 🙏

[crude geode]

and how much worse it is

[frail fox]

Hey come on, it’s not the weapon’s fault

[glass arch]

the wand

[frail fox]

Reworked Earth and Triactis are real weapons…

[hollow shell]

Ideally it'd be a single attack, not a persisting AoE field.
It needs to be an opportunity that you can miss.

[crude geode]

I love the wand because it’s so unusable

You cannot see SHIT

[sand marlin]

I honestly have no problems with The Wand but yes it's so visually obstructing

[frail fox]

Bring back the pre-1.5 wand meta…

[distant gyro]

the wand is such a stupid weapon which is what makes it so good

[sand marlin]

Can we make The Wand a hold to use weapon and you move the tornado

[frail fox]

Replaces Phoenix flame barrage

[crude geode]

10000000%

Never received a overhaul, never will need one

[distant gyro]

simply the goat

[sand marlin]

I guess a better wand will never exist

[frail fox]

Hope it stays the exact same even when yharon flarenados get improved/removed

[distant gyro]

okay the throngler is solid competition though

[drowsy plank]

hello universe splitter

[frail fox]

Snail

[drowsy plank]

a little

[hollow shell]

(by the way there probably should be more noticeable audio-visual effects when the boss gets slowed or stunned, as well as something for when that comes off cooldown so you know you can do it again.
Hard to strategize with it being unclear.)

[drowsy plank]

i just got back dont blame me

[hollow shell]

That is indeed the closest to what I'm thinking of
but even that has a bunch of constant damaging lasers throughout the attack

[drowsy plank]

what update are we getting the throngler in

[distant gyro]

7

[crude geode]

7.0 confirmed!!!!

[frail fox]

77

[novel belfry]

I can't wait for the throngler

[crude geode]

Choose your gender
Throngler
or
The Wand

[golden sonnet]

I'm both actually

[hollow shell]

yay we did it

[echo leaf]

🎉

[golden sonnet]

Who ruined it.

[wide river]

It could only hold for so long

[errant wren]

guys who wants snacks

[oblique otter]

i would like a pack of chips

[north oracle]

damn it calmain

[olive saddle]

Probably done to death but i havent seen it before

[sand marlin]

Santa

[olive saddle]

Is santa from frost legion?

[sand marlin]

https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Santa_Claus

[olive saddle]

He is

Yea i just checked

Does that make the extremely niche event worth going after though

[sand marlin]

No

[olive saddle]

Ok i figured but that's not at all my call since im not an avid builder

[golden sonnet]

@olive saddle worth noting is that calamity does add essence of eleum to frost legion already

Making them a pretty good way to farm it

[olive saddle]

I actually didnt know that

I spose it as some use then, should i punt the sugg?

[golden sonnet]

It does have a use yeah, more so than in vanilla. That use still isn't amazing as after you beat cryogen that's generally better but eh. You could suggest adding something else to it like a weapon or something to make it more worthwhile, but it's fine how it is rn

[olive saddle]

I feel like a weapon is the cookie cutter approach and I'd definitely want it to be different, though I'll delete the sugg since it does have a niche

[serene vapor]

I have a demonstration video of this if anyone is interested

[median scaffold]

Here I am

[serene vapor]

Here you are

[serene vapor]

https://youtu.be/tRLLL74XpI0?si=v1F8-lNks8ZaTOqp this is the video, I apologize for the poor quality

Uploaded to YouTube because the recording was too big to post here

[crude geode]

Is the weapon that loud in fallout

[serene vapor]

Idk

I’ve never played new vegans

[echo kestrel]

whoa yea really does blast

[idle dagger]

You know, I never noticed I completely messed up the grammar in the last sentence of the architect gizmo pack sugg

Oh I see
I’m just missing a ‘so’

[grave zinc]

@golden sonnet - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Make All Alcohol Increase Fishing Power]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@ripe owl - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Make the Power Cell Factories make more batteries/make batteries faster the farther you are in the progression]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@teal marlin - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Add "Click to advance" to Draedon's lore]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[ripe owl]

Yippee, Duraecells are real

[golden sonnet]

sorry to the real suggestions but I am legit happy this got through

[novel belfry]

WAIT

TIPSY DOES THAT?

tipsy buffs fishing power?

what

[lucid marsh]

Yeah

You want to know all the other things that buff fishing power?

[novel belfry]

please do

[lucid marsh]

Rain
Sitting on a toilet
Being partially but not fully submerged in water
Being floating with the pool floaty thingy

Full moon

[novel belfry]

SITTING A ON A TOILET LMAO

[lucid marsh]

Ikr

[novel belfry]

"for optimal fishing, become a skibidi toilet"

[lucid marsh]

The optimal fishing setup looks like sitting in a half flooded outhouse with a bottle of ale and a pool floatie in the middle of a hurricane

[grizzled dome]

Alas you cannot pool floatie and toilet sit at the same time. And floating on the flamingo works the same.

[errant wren]

i'm pretty sure you can, but i forgot how

[median scaffold]

Staying in water while sitting on toilet?

[lucid marsh]

You can if you get the height of the water perfectly right

It counts

Or so I've heard

[grizzled dome]

Oh really? I didn't realize they stacked like that and had always just used the flamingo or a toilet.

[whole tundra]

I feel so tempted to make a 2 SIS in 1
That being that Starfury should swing the Luxor's Gift projectile from the blade, rather than from its own projectile

[median scaffold]

That sounds fair enough, to be honest

[whole tundra]

Here's a video displaying Star Fury + Luxor's Gift in action while underground

[median scaffold]

I thought they passed through the blocks, what...

[whole tundra]

They don't as they are meant to ricochet

[median scaffold]

I guess I got lucky that one time when I used Star Fury with Luxor's Gift on WoF

[median scaffold]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1129281417663238178/1266730596764483595/k.gif

I'm dead. Will be back in a few minutes

[misty lichen]

this is a problem with max mana rather than arcane imo

and just. all mana stats

because mana potion means the only useful stat is mana usage

[median scaffold]

Arcane now increases mana potion efficiency by 25%

[misty lichen]

mage rework is a plan for a reason

[hollow shell]

Plans™️

[median scaffold]

Oh, hi, Rover

[light birch]

Each?

[median scaffold]

Each.

[light birch]

Casual 175% efficiency

Never run out of Mana ever again

[hollow shell]

Giving Arcane reduced mana usage is such an obvious addition that I don't know why it hasn't been done yet

[median scaffold]

No clues myself at this point

[frosty trellis]

Rejected prior iirc

Also balance issues

[median scaffold]

Somewhat, I guess?
#suggestions-voting message

[sand marlin]

If I'm being honest that just further encourages mana potion abuse which shouldn't really become good

It already is good enough later in the game

[frosty trellis]

It really isn't actually

The mana potion abuse thing

With enough reduced mana usage you don't have to care about potions

[sand marlin]

Wait what isn't

[frosty trellis]

Jacob was able to get SHPC right click down to 1 mana use already and that subseeds the need to drink a potion

[hollow shell]

I don't see it

[median scaffold]

...huh, that's an interesting fact, ig

[frosty trellis]

Reducing mana usage makes you use less potions bc you aren't using as much mana over time

In fact it makes mana regen even better despite mana regen being crazy because you can cut out the potion alltogether easier bc you'll be attacking for longer periods of time with a shit ton less mana usag

Full arcane + the other stuff we have would lead to about 70%+ reduced mana usage post moonlord and by that point it's just ignoring the mechanic of the class entirely

[median scaffold]

So with this change, we would create Arcane modifier abuse™️

[sand marlin]

I don't really see why spending less time in mana sickness discourages mana potions

It becomes a very minimal difference

Instead of the early game of "you drink potion every 5-6 seconds or so" when you go to later on you drink a potion every 20-30 seconds or something

[hollow shell]

Giving Arcane either reduced mana usage or increased mana regen
and, to balance that out, siphon a bit of [whichever stat chosen] off of existing equipment so the landscape remains about the same

I think would be good

Because it would add Arcane to the modifiers you would want to have, as mage. A potential pick over a Menacing or Lucky

Yes I understand that would be a balance headache

[sand marlin]

So this definitely points to encouraging using mana potions when mana cost isn't high

[sand marlin]

Increased mana regen I agree with

[drowsy plank]

flower pot...?

[hollow shell]

Mana Flower

[drowsy plank]

do you mean mana flower

yeah

you should fix that @median scaffold

[hollow shell]

Could be fixed in the sugg but I knew what they meant

[median scaffold]

Yeah, give me a second

[drowsy plank]

arcane is such a funny modifier

at this point we might as well just make it mage silent because at least then it would have a purpose

[median scaffold]

Can't disagree with this, tbh

[frosty trellis]

It would be a precarious situation of figuring how how much mana usage arcane should give

If we assume 4% like other reforges, lets give an example of a post moonlord mage build at current:

Nebula armor: 15% reduced mana usage
Nebula wings: 5%
Arcane Flower: 12%
Permafrosts: 15%
Sigil of Calamitas: 10%
Star Beam Rye: 10%

That is 67% already

If we add another 28% that's 95% reduced mana usage

Aka: Ignoring the mechanic of the class entirely, making mana essentially pointless as if 90% of everything costs 1 mana then you don't have to care and you are just ranger wih less defense

And none of this is really out there, Star Beam Rye has a mostly ignorable downside and you still have 3 other accessory slots to use on whatever you wish, such as a dash and 2 other defensive accessories which is generally plenty

So I can't see this being remotely okay

[drowsy plank]

okay well lets lowball it a bit

[median scaffold]

2%, maybe?

[hollow shell]

I was thinking 2% personally
And also yes that's why I proposed taking a bit of mana usage off of existing equipment

[drowsy plank]

if you lean a bit more casual, nebula armor, arcane flower, sigil; so 15+12+10 = 37%?

so 37+28=65%?

[frosty trellis]

I mean a bit more casual like that doesn't really change that something like this which isn't even extreme is just letting people ignore the mechanic of the class entirely

That's just not good game design

[drowsy plank]

maybe that's a good thing bc mana sucks

anyway yeah 2% seems more reasonable

[frosty trellis]

It would have to be like rover said, take mana usage off of existing equipment to help with that

[drowsy plank]

that can happen when the very real mage rebalance happens in 2036

[median scaffold]

2036 is too early, 2087 seems more reasonable

[sand marlin]

I'd rather push for mana regen, it's already quite a scarce stat anyway and would be healthier

[frosty trellis]

Disagree mana regen is already insane lmao

[drowsy plank]

is it viable endgame?

[frosty trellis]

I play mage in cal and in other mods

Cal's mana regen with mana regen potions takes 2 seconds if that to fully refill, generally faster than a stealth bar regen

[sand marlin]

I mean would that be better than 28% crit chance

[frosty trellis]

Yes but there are also weapons in endgame where you have to use mana potions already

Aetherflux Cannon, Yermes, Rancor, and Staff of the Blushie

[hollow shell]

Okay what if all the sources you listed above had their reduction in mana usage cut in half, or even less
And if you spec entirely into Arcane on all acc reforges, it'll take you back up to something around the current 67%

Then it's not invalidating mana, right? It's the opposite extreme, it's just straight nerfing mana usage reduction for everyone who doesn't use Arcane?

[drowsy plank]

or 28% damage or however much defense warding gives

[frosty trellis]

That could work yeah

[drowsy plank]

also why are we treating perma like it's a real accessory; i sincerely doubt the ridiculously high mana reduction it has is going to last forever

[frosty trellis]

70 + 7% DR

Well, "7% DR" since DR scaling is overtuned byah

[drowsy plank]

would 28% mana reduction beat crit, damage, or defense in this scenario? like would it be able to compete with normal reforges like (i assume) silent can for rogues?

[hollow shell]

Frankly I expected pushback because that is the extreme opposite option
Do you think that the current state mana is already overtuned, then

[hollow shell]

How long has it gone without getting nerfed?

4 years?

[drowsy plank]

no idea tbh

[frosty trellis]

Defense no because warding is the objectively best reforge uncontested

Damage absolutely given either better pure damage uptime with regen or less time spent in mana sickness which reduces your damage significantly which would nullify the reforge entirely

Crit I'm not sure on because mage lacks about any sources of crit whatsoever so the jury is up on that

[drowsy plank]

im just considering the fact that cryo's stuff is actively being looked at

i see

[frosty trellis]

It's flawed but in terms of just mana reduction options yeah being able to basically get 67% reduced mana usage with essentially zero downside is not remotely okay

At that tier in vanilla at best you have 27% unless you start flower stacking which by that point go off king

[hollow shell]

Huh.
Alright

And putting it on acc modifiers would be a 'downside' because you're not using Warding or Menacing
Hmm...

[median scaffold]

Sorry to bother all of you, but I'll be absent for some time (too sleepy). Ping me whenever a conclusion to this discussion will be found so I can change the suggestion accordingly, please
Regardless, thanks in advance

[hollow shell]

I think there's no debate over the core of your sugg, just how to execute it (which isn't necessary for you to consider)

((unless you wanna refocus your sugg))

[frosty trellis]

Arcane should be changed

It's more just the current state of mana reduction that makes me hesistant on saying going the mana reduction route is good

And mana regen is fine as is it feels better than other mods by a mile and already charges up very quickly

[echo leaf]

I think it’s safe to say that Arcane can get a boost to its numbers in the meantime
It’d still be pretty bad if it gave 30, 40 or even 50 mana but it’d be useful for some funny builds before it actually gets a real rework

[hollow shell]

Does the weird ass mana hardcap still exist

[echo leaf]

I’m not aware of any

[median scaffold]

I think it does?

[hollow shell]

Is that what the 550 number in your sugg is referring to

[golden sonnet]

I don't think so, can check in a sec

I'm like 80% sure it was removed

[hollow shell]

(Please tell me it was)

[golden sonnet]

Yes

[median scaffold]

That'll be interesting to read at the very least

[frosty trellis]

I'm pretty sure it's 550 even in tmod

I think it's like a weird ass hardcoded vanilla issue

[median scaffold]

Please, do that

[hollow shell]

IL Editing can fix anything with enough blood sacrifices, so
If it's not removed already, we can ask that it get removed

[median scaffold]

The highest amount I know of is 999 in Fargo's Souls, but that's pretty much it

[golden sonnet]

I recall tmod removing it, but I will check in a second

[frosty trellis]

And if it still is, someone ping cit he'll find a way around it

He found the way to remove the plantera lock on power cells in like 2 minutes and was able to IL edit it out fairly quickly

It's why old power cell is dying is because it's no longer necessary

[sand marlin]

I think fargo's souls can give you insane mana so they must've found a way at least

[golden sonnet]

Considering I can no longer even see the stars

[sand marlin]

Yeah

That's past 600

[golden sonnet]

I would be inclined to say calamity removes it

[hollow shell]

Hover over to see for sure

[sand marlin]

It's probably tMod ngl

[misty lichen]

i think demonshade ignores cap actually

[hollow shell]

Awesome thank you

[golden sonnet]

still 700 without

[misty lichen]

some sources can ignore cap

[sand marlin]

Ohhhhhhhh wait I think I know why yeah

[median scaffold]

[sand marlin]

Those sources use a different stat called maxmana2 or something I think

[hollow shell]

... Really?

[sand marlin]

Or that's just how they differentiate current and max mana

In which case nevermind

I'd say Mana Polarizer might be a good thing to look at for this

[royal tapir]

Vanilla has a hardcap of 400 which tMod removes

[hollow shell]

Oh wow

Okay then!

Thank you for the info

Shuki you can edit your sugg with this in mind

[sand marlin]

Hm weird how it's named ManaMax2

Is there ManaMax1

That can't be current mana right

[golden sonnet]

isn't 1 base mana

[hollow shell]

That's probably the base one you can achieve thru mana stars

[sand marlin]

Is that how they handle it

I guess it makes sense

[hollow shell]

idk, just guessing

[royal tapir]

statMana is you current mana value
statManaMax is your maximum mana without boosts
statManaMax2 is your maximum mana with boosts

[hollow shell]

Gotcha

[sand marlin]

Boosts do or don't include mana stars?

[royal tapir]

Permanent boosters change statManaMax

[sand marlin]

Ah so it's the powerup stat

I'm guessing they also handle health similarly

Since some things only use base health and others total

[golden sonnet]

yes

like lifeforce

[sand marlin]

Cal went back to base health on probably everything that increases max health

[hollow shell]

So, back to Arcane,
we could just straight buff the amount of max mana it grants and it would not cause any cap issues

[sand marlin]

That would directly encourage mana regen and discourage mana potions yeah

Because it does effectively nothing for mana potions

[hollow shell]

It would indeed!

Well, for the most part

[sand marlin]

Unless you're using Spectre Hood you don't touch Arcane as a mana potion user

[hollow shell]

Depending on your playstyle it can still improve your potion efficiency

[sand marlin]

How?

[hollow shell]

If you at any point get your mana back up to full mid-fight, that's longer before you reach 0 and have to drink one

Mana Flower and Mana Regen Potions are not mutually exclusive

[sand marlin]

I mean if you're mana regen you may want to not use flower for optimization purposes but I guess that's fair

[harsh echo]

why are things hardcoded

[median scaffold]

Because Terraria code

[hollow shell]

But yeah if you are consuming mana at a constant rate, never letting go of LMB,
then your potion's mana restore amount is effectively your max mana

So yes making Arcane just boost max mana would by and large be a buff to regen strats and no change to potion strats

[royal tapir]

Because this was supposed to be Red's fun little game experiment in 2011 and nobody expected it to blow up this much

[hollow shell]

☝️

[sand marlin]

Hey that sounds exactly like how cal came to be

[hollow shell]

Quite true

[royal tapir]

Time is a flat circle

[sand marlin]

⭕

[frail fox]

Learning that people named Andrew need to anticipate their stuff blowing up

[hollow shell]

Oh my god they're both named Andrew aren't they

[lucid marsh]

...huh. fabsol's real name is also andrew

[harsh echo]

same person

[hollow shell]

Same person.

[lucid marsh]

That would be crazy

[hollow shell]

Have you ever seen Redigit and Fabsol in the same room together? 🤔

[harsh echo]

Never have I.

[golden sonnet]

nah, the amount of shade thrown towards vanilla by Calamity in some spots disproves that

[lucid marsh]

Well, red made at least 3 unique bosses

And fabsol... Didn't

[hollow shell]

self deprecation

[hollow shell]

I am not going to publicly agree with this statement.

[lucid marsh]

Unless that was only because they spent their 3 unique boss ideas on the first experiment

[harsh echo]

Your silence speaks volumes!

[lucid marsh]

Anyways, arcane

[golden sonnet]

I don't think silence speaks

[lucid marsh]

Here's an idea for it

[hollow shell]

Arcane Season 2 airing now

[lucid marsh]

+1% mana regen, -1% magic damage

[hollow shell]

Going the direct downside route huh

[lucid marsh]

Accessory reforges are not as interesting as weapon reforges, and this is why

[hollow shell]

This is theoretically not necessary because any acc reforged to Arcane is not reforged to Menacing (nor Lucky)

[harsh echo]

not directly but it uses TTS

[lucid marsh]

Menacing:
+4% damage
-1% damage reduction

[hollow shell]

You might have had a point if there was not a single universally superior and beneficial weapon reforge.

[lucid marsh]

...true

[hollow shell]

Actually?
It's completely the other way around.

Acc reforges are more interesting than weapon reforges because there is not one universally best option.
You have to choose what you want to spec into.

[lucid marsh]

Huh. You're right.

[hollow shell]

Ruthless is the only weapon reforge that is occasionally superior to the best reforge. Your only alternative.
And the system would definitely be more interesting if there were more choices like it.

(There are many other mods on the Workshop that already tackle this issue.)

[crude geode]

yeah weapon reforges are so boring

[golden sonnet]

@shell grotto for future reference, merchant sells bottles which shimmer to glass making this much easier. This doesn't affect your suggestion much if at all as the only reason you need to look into shimmer (which can be annoying to find early game) is because the recipe is stupid expensive, but worth noting for personal use

[hollow verge]

i like using light on my pickaxes :)

[crude geode]

also did shade ever give reasoning for rejecting buffing arcane

or rather exclaiming it

[shell grotto]

Thanks for the heads up.

Got me thinking about unilimited sand and didn't know where to look

but that'll do lol

[crude geode]

Antlions in death mode :)

[shell grotto]

sorry, a reliable unlimited sand method

[hollow shell]

I think he did it just now

@grim tusk

(If it's the 550 thing then fair enough and we can make sure Shuki changes it)

[grim tusk]

Yep its the reasoning

Solution is fine

[drowsy plank]

sandgun + ammo consumption reduction :)

[hollow shell]

aight @median scaffold Fix that when you can, cuz it's uncapped

[golden sonnet]

it works but enjoy shooting the ground for 5 hours

[novel belfry]

why is this sugg (#suggestions-posting message) exclamed?

[golden sonnet]

was just explained

[golden sonnet]

.

[shell grotto]

thanks

[novel belfry]

ah i see

[crude geode]

Ranged and Mage shafted once again smh my head

[serene tendon]

Hard disagree. Aureus, Providence, SCal, Exo Mechs, and Ana and Levi all count as unique, I'd say. And it's not like the other ones are ripoffs (though the same is true in vanilla), they all have fun, note-worthy mechanics that make them stand out.

[novel belfry]

Providence’s ai apparently derives from ice queen

Exo Mechs tho are definitely much more unique (aside from the worm boss, but that one’s still pretty unique)

[fossil finch]

scal also has now very old and not as apparent twins stuff

It's not really what matters here though because like even if you don't reuse code things can still be unoriginal of course

[north oracle]

exos are legitimately ai coded from nothing, they're just obviously heavy inspiration from mechs (especially metal laser worm 200)

[fossil finch]

Anyways we are warning you this conversation won't go anywhere and isn't worth having

[lucid marsh]

Aureus is basically a slime
Providence is Ice queen with a bullet hell and less flight, kinda half unique
Scal is unique
Exo Mechs are... not sure if they're made by fabsol?
Ana and Levi are kinda unique

[novel belfry]

the worm isn’t worm ai?

[fossil finch]

Exo mechs are indeed by fabso

[lucid marsh]

but ok yes the bosses do have unique AI these days

[fossil finch]

Not literally Worm Ai, no

[novel belfry]

funny

[lucid marsh]

I was a bit to agressive again, sorry

[fossil finch]

Just a very close replicate specifically constructed for Thanatos

[novel belfry]

actually, come to think of it, he does move noticeably differently

[north oracle]

just about all the new stuff is freshly coded now (exos, guardians, brothers rework)

yeah, thana isn't quite normal worm afaik

[novel belfry]

that’s pretty cool

[serene tendon]

All good 👍

I wasn't offended dw

(that's not a feat though since the original wasn't even directed to me lol)

[golden sonnet]

I feel like in general the AI comparisons are just meaningless, like yes old cal bosses were literally just recolors and stat changes of vanilla bosses but pretty much zero of them are still like that now. I feel the amount of stetching to fit that narrative is quite silly

and the same stretches can be applied to other mods

[hollow shell]

indeed

[harsh echo]

For the future content doc i dont know if its just me but it's hard to see my cursor because it just recolors to almost the same grey as the doc background color for some reason.

[fossil finch]

This isn't relevant for this channel?

[frozen hornet]

The elusive Eye, Empress or Slime reductionist theory

[violet zephyr]

Which is Supreme Witch, Calamitas?

Also, were is the Eater of Worlds option?

[golden sonnet]

you forgot worm

[frozen hornet]

Scal is an empress

Worms are generally eyes

[golden sonnet]

also is empress really a class?

what

[frozen hornet]

Haha

I love this theory it's so fucking funny

[violet zephyr]

How, exactly?

[golden sonnet]

oh, the one based on how to dodge attacks

[frozen hornet]

She doesn't actively try to go for your position

She stays at a distance

[drowsy plank]

huh

doesnt scal have a dash

[frozen hornet]

Worms are eyes because worms generally try to go into you

Yes but that's one attack

[violet zephyr]

Doesn't Empress have a dash?

[golden sonnet]

so does empress

[drowsy plank]

hm

fair

[violet zephyr]

What is Brain of Cthulhu?

[drowsy plank]

empress's dash feels so fake usually lol

[frozen hornet]

Eye I think

[violet zephyr]

Huh?

[frozen hornet]

It tries to be on top of you

[violet zephyr]

I... guess?

[drowsy plank]

does this make skeletron an eye

[frozen hornet]

Idk I don't remember brain ai

Skeletron is an eye yes

[violet zephyr]

Spin.

[drowsy plank]

speen

[violet zephyr]

Actually.

Eye is honestly just "does this thing mainly do physical attacks or dash very often".

Now...

What is Deerclops?

[frozen hornet]

It tries to go after you

Therefore eye

Ares and exo twins are empresses

Thanatos is an eye

[frozen hornet]

So is draedon himself

[violet zephyr]

Cryogen?

Seems to do a mix of both Empress and Eye.

[frozen hornet]

I don't remember cryogen

Probably that yea

[violet zephyr]

I'd just say

Empress

How often does Calamitas Clone dash?

[lucid marsh]

Oh, boss categories again

There's:
slime (grounded, tries to get on top of you to do contact damage)
Eye (flying, goes through blocks, tries to get on top of you to do contact damage
Cultist/empress (flying, goes through blocks, tries to mostly stay away from you and shoot projectiles)

Most worms are eyes because they try to do contact damage, and the segment coiling is just a natural consequence of an eye having things follow it

[violet zephyr]

Have fun.

[crude geode]

Why is this still happening

[violet zephyr]

Because it easy to make fun of people who honestly think bosses can be so easily categorised.

[violet zephyr]

Case in point, this is ridiculous to look it.

However, when looking at only a single boss, people will argue these.

[lucid marsh]

I think these are completely reasonable categories for bosses, but it's not fair to call them literally the same boss

[novel belfry]

ravager

at least he's getting overhauled completely

[grizzled dome]

I honestly think Polterghast randomly spawning is a good thing? There's already so many bosses which can only be spawned by using a summon item; having one that can random spawn is fine.

or not even random, just... as a consequence of play.