suggestions-discussion

[golden sonnet]

^ second that

[stable kiln]

hes the goat

hope everythings alright

is it gonna roll out all the suggestions at once, by the way?

[idle dagger]

nycro is okay!! yippee

glad yo see you safe

[median scaffold]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1038901257747832884/1048796726737260544/image0.gif

Glad to see you again, safe and unhurt, Nycro

[novel belfry]

within the next 2-3ish days if everything goes well?

[harsh echo]

is that reaper shark

[golden sonnet]

no, monster hunter

[echo leaf]

Friend

[odd geyser]

Bloodbath Diablos after the base MHRise ketamin

[vale kelp]

I found 2 things in the game that probably are not intended but are probably no bugs,

1. If the player shakes a sulfurus sea palm tree that has no leaves on top, it will still drop items
2. In vanilla terraria when you run past a banner it will swing, calamity banners do not swing

[golden sonnet]

1st issue is known, second is known and a tmodloader limitation

Both trees and wind are also miserable systems to work with, so both are also somewhat unlikely to be fixed until tmod adds support for them

[vale kelp]

ah, thanks for the clearup

[distant gyro]

#suggestions-posting message @golden sonnet the monkey's paw curls

Abyss chest loot is now guaranteed from crates
Every other weapon loot pool is removed

[sand marlin]

Finally post skele abyss loot being post SG actually means something lmao

[distant gyro]

oh also abyss loot is limited to the hardmode crates only so it doesn't have that one condition in it

[sand marlin]

Wait so

Sulph crates are unchanged?

[distant gyro]

sulph crates no longer drops weapons

or the other stuff

[sand marlin]

I'm sorry this is getting a bit confusing

What is the difference between current and updated sulph crates

[violet zephyr]

Abyss loot is from Hardmode crates.

No more Slime God unlocking them.

[distant gyro]

hydrothermal is the only crate now that drops any weapony loot

removed from sulph, astral, and prism

[sand marlin]

Okay so if you don't get your abyss weapon from chests, you just don't get to use them for WoF at least

[lucid marsh]

Thats lame

Defeats the point of crates

Well, some of it

[distant gyro]

no not really

[sand marlin]

Will they get any other obtainment methods?

Or is the sugg still WIP

[distant gyro]

probably not

[sand marlin]

Why is the availability being cut off then? I don't understand why you (not you specifically obv.) would prevent the player from having a permanent obtainment method for at least WoF if you don't get it in chests, and this is also removing the fact that if you waited past SG to use abyss weapons then you could fish them out

[distant gyro]

fishing clearly isn't supposed to be how you're supposed to get the item

its also why it also doesnt just drop right as you kill skeletron

this is just moved 1 boss back

the chest loot in this case is available for contingent reasons

[sand marlin]

I'm not talking about fishing specifically. I asked for alternate obtainment methods because there is still a lack of one when chest loot is not a sustainable method

This is a pretty critical error

[violet zephyr]

What?

[distant gyro]

this is a common trope with chest loot in terraria

i do not really see it as an error

[sand marlin]

Which is fixed by fishing if you really were unlucky enough to not get your wanted item in the billions of chests available which can happen regardless
Abyss chests are incredibly scarce in comparison

[distant gyro]

fishing is still an option it's just not immediately available to you

[sand marlin]

You can't use it when you can fish it out

If it's moved to post WoF

That's why I've brought this up

The weapons become unusable if you happen to not get them from abyss chests at your wanted stage

Genuinely though I thought I was clear about that, maybe not

[distant gyro]

i get that but i also do not think that is a design flaw

yeah rng i guess but also we are dealing with the consequences of maybe missing out on using a weapon that's viable at that stage

(it's not your only choice)

[lucid marsh]

Doesn't every single chest loot item in terraria have fishing as an alternative way to get it renewably?

[sand marlin]

Well I've discussed all that was relevant so I'm going to leave it there

[lucid marsh]

Also, these weapons sometimes have upgrades that are important for their class. Especially archerfish

[distant gyro]

yes

if you missed archerfish and wanted to craft megalodon you can fish for it

[lucid marsh]

Oh right

Ok yeah

[distant gyro]

it's from the hardmode crate

[lucid marsh]

This makes sense

I just think...

There could be a better way to handle this

[violet zephyr]

It is just one boss extra you are missing it for (since Abyss loot from crates are already Post-Slime God)

[lucid marsh]

Suppose it is only from the "hardmode" crate, but, the hard mode crate now appears after skeletron, or something like that

[distant gyro]

hmm, no, actually

you can kill wof, get abyss chest loot without killing skeletron

this is also real looparound

[lucid marsh]

All the more reason to tie the upgrades crate to skeletron

Another thing I just thought of:

The abyss might be more fun if it had little branches off to the sides, instead of just being a straight line down

Like...

Uh

I can't post images. Think lightning bolt shape

Or the shape of a thorny vine

[violet zephyr]

Island locations are randomised, so this should already be happening.

[distant gyro]

i think any ideal changes to the abyss right now hinges on the fact that it needs to be bigger

[lucid marsh]

This effect is insignificant, really. It's a vague zigzag shape, but it's more like just dodging a few rocks

The abyss could easily be bigger, you just have to move the dungeon so that it doesn't branch outward as far

Granted, I'm not sure if that's possible to change

[golden sonnet]

Oh, so you are garenteed to get at least one weapon/accessory now like vanilla?

Sick

Will remove the suggestion then

This was it for those curious

`Make Calamity Crates Guarantee a Weapon/Accessory

As of 1.4.4 all vanilla biome crates are guaranteed to give an item from them, removing the difficulty of getting an item while retaining the difficulty of getting the desired item. Calamity crates however do not have this feature, with sunken crates after Hardmode Clam, Sulphuric crates after Slime God, and Astral crates after Astrum Aurueus all not having a garentee to have a relavant item. This can leave players opening large amounts of crates to not only get none of the item they want, but none of the items at all. Calamity crates should be changed to be more in line with vanilla crates in order to make fishing for crate drops less tedious and time consuming.`

[hollow verge]

.... why remove the weapons from sulph crates? like i think im missing something. why was it removed at all?

[median scaffold]

Probably to make you go explore Abyss before fighting WoF??

[echo leaf]

So that there's a renewable way to obtain them

[hollow shell]

(infernum gen)

[hollow shell]

It is. Calamity already does it to make sure the Dungeon doesn't intersect with the Abyss

[hollow shell]

I spose removing all the other weapon loot pools than the Abyss's makes sense considering they were never chest loot to begin with

This encourages you to actually go out and experience things instead of doing the objectively boring fishing alternative

[golden sonnet]

^

I personally love fishing, but overall agree with the removal

[drowsy plank]

the way calamity treated its weapons from the sulph sea would be like if you could fish up ko glove and the blood moon enemy weapons as stand alone items

lol

[golden sonnet]

^

[hollow shell]

Funny you should pick that as the example because of the Blood Moon fishing enemies

[median scaffold]

On my way to fish up Nuclear Terror:

[echo leaf]

make this happen if someone gets titanium/adamantite premechs

[median scaffold]

DO NOT make the glove pre-mechs

[drowsy plank]

well sure but you still have to do the fights

if you could fish up a mauler in the sulph sea outside of the acid rain event maybe it would be more comparable lol

[hollow shell]

That'd be fun

[median scaffold]

To be honest, I want Mauler to be fishable specifically

Probably an issue on my end, but it is pretty rare

[frail fox]

No it really is just stupidly rare, but I mean it’ll be changed with the new acid rain changes so that won’t be an issue then

[median scaffold]

I hope it won't

[lucid marsh]

Last time I saw infernum gen, it wasn't any better

[lucid marsh]

Oh? When was that changed?

[fossil finch]

Long while ago

We do agree abyss could do with more interesting gen and honestly it doesn't really need more space

Use up more of the walls if you Must but just not having it be Islands randomly placed but actual cavernous gen would make it better

[novel belfry]

I dont exactly think the infernum abyss was the best, all side from the comically large bottom layer that is an infinitely better arena for the primordial wyrm

even if i dont think that fight was the best interpretation of that boss either, at least he got a big arena

i think thats more than enough reason to at least give more space for the abyss

[echo leaf]

I do agree that caverns to explore would be really cool

[novel belfry]

i really liked that the infer abyss was somewhat explorable, though i certainly think the scoria ore layer wasnt executed well

[echo leaf]

Maybe they could even have a pickaxe requirement to get lower. Like, layer 2 just can't be explored without a Titanium/Adamantite pick. It would make it feel more climactic, I guess

[echo leaf]

oh 100% agreed

I don't like that layer

[novel belfry]

if i had to design it i'd probably just have Anahita/Leviathan drop an item that opens your way to the lower layers of the abyss

[novel belfry]

This entirely has to do with that the ore is just kinda wonky in its placement the enemies are cool tho

(oh yeah. the lionfish is an ENEMY there)

[violet zephyr]

Don't you also need to use the Bug Net on a Herring critter to get the Herring Staff?

[gray bone]

yeah

[echo leaf]

My gripe about it is that the little volcanoes feel weirdly placed. They're in floating islands somehow with lava? Plus there isn't very much Scoria there in general. On my Infernum runs I just immediately begin fishing/grinding Ravager for Scoria since I don't think there's enough down there to bother

[gray bone]

unless you get unlucky with the worldgen, i definitely wouldn't say that, but yeah there is a lot less scoria down there compared to basecal

[hollow verge]

my gripe with inf abyss is the fucking devilfish. the caves were like, fine. i dont think it's super realistic but what do i know about underwater geography

[wraith sail]

I usually just shimmer down astral ore for scoria

[echo leaf]

That’s also a good idea

I love shimmer so much

[wheat socket]

can i just say

death mode blood moon is just too much

and im talking about the spawn rates

can they decrease it or atleast make it configubrible

[errant wren]

i don't want to be mean about it, but you are playing death mode

[misty lichen]

death mode does that and nothing else

[errant wren]

that's kinda the point of death mode

[sand marlin]

I think it exists to make blood orb farming easier funny enough

[errant wren]

ah yes, let me play the mode that turns the intended Calamity Experience into something harder

[wheat socket]

but then just make the enemies stronger

i would rather perfer that

[misty lichen]

but they didn’t know how

[errant wren]

i'm pretty sure most of the enemies are stronger in death mode itself?

not that i'm saying it's a bad idea..

[harsh echo]

Death blood moon is kinda unfair doe 👁‍🗨

[lavish condor]

none of the enemies can go through blocks til hardmode

I don't find it too bad

[echo leaf]

Build something to make it easier

[lavish condor]

if you can't handle the spawnrates just wait it out inside

[echo leaf]

Like a wall

[lavish condor]

build your base out or something

[echo leaf]

Alternatively build a hoik to shoot through the wall protecting you

[errant wren]

you don't even need to use a hoik you can just place like two blocks on a doorway and fire between the gap

[echo kestrel]

there's so much fucking astral ore that generates that I partially believe it's main function now isn't for astral gear, but rather as the catch-all ore for anything hardmode if just in case you need x of some bar

[inland saddle]

@hollow shell can you delete your message in #suggestions-posting (so it doesn't get forwarded as a suggestion )?

[hollow shell]

Done 👍

[misty lichen]

the storm?

[hollow shell]

Should I return messaging perms to the channel? Or is this just pre-emptive?

[inland saddle]

Wait until the flood goes through, but it should be good within the next few minutes

[hollow shell]

oh nice!

[inland saddle]

Google disabled my account so I had to appeal the decision and they gave me a quote of like 2-3 business days

It actually only took them ~12 hours

[hollow shell]

oh wack

[inland saddle]

And now we wait to see

[misty lichen]

this can only end poorly

[inland saddle]

It appears to have not ended poorly

Rover you can open the channel whenever now it should be good to go

[grave zinc]

@drowsy plank - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Make Burning Blood and Brain Rot Sickness Debuffs]

It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@drowsy plank - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Make Burning Blood and Brain Rot Sickness Debuffs]

It has officially been implemented into the game, and will be available in the next update!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[echo leaf]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1279975978994765857.webp?size=64

[inland saddle]

Oh

[distant gyro]

cleanup

[inland saddle]

OH they're different

I thought the message sent twice and I was going to die of a cringe attack

[hollow shell]

NICE the bot is officially revived!

[distant gyro]

[hollow shell]

Thank you Nycro and welcome back to uhh the internet I suppose

Hope you're in a good place

[inland saddle]

Yeah definitely much better now lol

It took a while for things to get functional again and a lot of people in my area are still struggling somewhat but thankfully things have mostly returned to normal for me

My wifi has been going in and out while they're fixing lines everywhere so I wanted to go ahead and get this done now while it's working lol

[hollow shell]

I see I see
Overall that sounds very good

Also messaging permissions re-granted for sugg-posting 👍
(Lemme know if I did that right)

[north oracle]

We're so back

[echo leaf]

Now do I post suggestions now or wait a week for the flood to end

[errant wren]

i was very tempted to just type yes in the channel

[hollow shell]

Eh, you'd prolly only need to wait like 24 hours for most people to have caught up on that all-at-once influx

and start seeing new suggs as they come in again

[errant wren]

nature #suggestions-posting is healing 🙏

[echo leaf]

Gives me more time to research and think. I want to do something about Drunk Princess since I see a handful of players that just aren't aware she exists

[hollow shell]

Her spawn conditions are quite obscure without the wiki or Census Mod

Hell even with the wiki you have to know to look for her

One random item

[echo leaf]

And for such a valuable NPC that's pretty bad. I was thinking if she moved in while the player was under the effect of the Fab buff, or if Fabsol's Vodka is in personal storage in addition to inventory, or maybe add a Stylist quote hinting at her existence

[drowsy plank]

yay

[echo leaf]

(but unfortunately I'd bet money that at least half of those players never rescue Stylist)

[drowsy plank]

now you just gotta check all the rest that passed while it was dead

[hollow shell]

((I always rescue Stylist just for the vanity options)) 👀

[novel belfry]

you could just have Fabsol's Vodka be used to somehow summon her in some manner

crude but it works

[hollow shell]

Those sound like pretty safe bets actually
Because those don't change the core spawn condition, just makes it more lenient

Maybe even just a permanent boolean flip for "Has Fabsol's Vodka EVER been in the player's inventory?"

[echo leaf]

Yeah, I think that the spawn condition is pretty neat

[drowsy plank]

[hollow shell]

I do still think it could be more obvious because it is just one random item
Like maybe it can be crafted with some new plant that grows the Hallow which is really bright and shiny, so you're likely to spot it whenever you're there
You check to see what it makes and ooo hey this one specific thing, must be pretty important

[echo leaf]

Maybe it can be used for a special recipe for Fabsol's Vodka which skips most of the rarer resources so players are more likely to get it

[hollow shell]

Yeah like an alt recipe like Cosmic Worm has

[echo leaf]

Exactly

Could just be that thing plus a bottle of water

[hollow shell]

... This may be getting too specific

[echo leaf]

Yeah, but it's fun to brainstorm

[hollow shell]

I'm still too dev brained even after all this time

[errant wren]

this makes fabsol's vodka into shpc 2

[hollow shell]

Also good sugg Cog

However, do Reapers spawn pre-Mech in Calamity?

[echo leaf]

Reapers? Not sure. I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure they don't

[distant gyro]

im pretty sure theres a ton of eclipse drop locks that honestly i feel like disrupting it blows more than with the altar

[echo leaf]

What can you get with a pre-mech eclipse? besides banners and vanities

[drowsy plank]

i suppose so? but you would need to kill eclipse enemies with preHardmode gear

[hollow shell]

In PreHM the only things you'd get are Moon Stone and Neptune's Shell, right?

[distant gyro]

and bat hook

(cal)

[hollow shell]

And Broken Bat Wings the material you can't use

[distant gyro]

everything else is boss locked

[drowsy plank]

mhm

[hollow shell]

aight so 3 decently useful things if you do early Eclipse

[distant gyro]

more like 2

[echo leaf]

Moon stone is definitely welcome in phm

[distant gyro]

neptunes shell as far as i know is damn near pointless

[drowsy plank]

true!

[hollow shell]

Damn, even for Abyss?

[distant gyro]

its celestial shell fodder

[drowsy plank]

it's literally just vamps that matter

[echo leaf]

makes abyss exploration easier I guess

But Amidas already does that

[hollow verge]

welcome back nycro

[distant gyro]

yeah its moreso that the options you have are good enough

[hollow shell]

All this is evidence to me that there's no harm in allowing it to happen

[drowsy plank]

it might help a lil but you can already get artic and aquatic heart anyway yeah

[hollow shell]

The lock is unusual

[drowsy plank]

very!

it makes sense in vanilla for sure but in calamity it's just a relic

this is all part of my master plan to get the hardmode lock removed from golem too

[echo leaf]

remove the lock from the dungeon cultists

[distant gyro]

someone may be

20 steps ahead of you

[hollow shell]

Eidolon Tablet not good enough for ya?

[drowsy plank]

if ur talking about what i think you are, ur talking about what CIT did right?

[distant gyro]

yeh

[drowsy plank]

wasn't that just plantera tho? or did yall decide to go all the way

[distant gyro]

idk if he made it hardmode or any

[drowsy plank]

and if so that's only further proof (that i cant include bc future content)

i think he only removed the plantera lock

so the hardmode lock still exists

but i think it should be removed too

[distant gyro]

its hardmode

well

idk

im sure not everyone wanted to canonize hoiks

[drowsy plank]

when roxcalibur finally gets Addressed like it should and gets its shrine id imagine the shimmer exploit might get removed, but if you let golem spawn in prehardmode then you can get picksaw, shimmer scoria down from the abyss, and still get the anvil and do preHardmode%

[echo leaf]

No. Make them spawn pre-Skeletron. Make them die to everything. Make Lunatic Cultist a jumpscare rated E for everybody.

[distant gyro]

relogic at the very least thinks so

[drowsy plank]

tbf hoiking in is a very intentional like i said, i dont think it's a massive deal, and you kinda need to be doing this on purpose anyway

i think it would be fun, and like i said, it would preserve the non-linearity of being able to do the whole game in the preHardmode state which i think is sick as hell if roxcalibur ends up getting fixed

[distant gyro]

yeah but its kinda lame having evrything nonlinearity hinge on you getting into one structure

[drowsy plank]

since it would be less of a weird exploit and more of an intentional design decision

[distant gyro]

thats how you fight ravager early, right?

[drowsy plank]

yeah

[distant gyro]

and ravager is like the nonlinear puppet master

[drowsy plank]

since bohldours drop lihzard brick or whatever

mhm

[hollow shell]

I will be so pissed if the Rox Shimmer exploit gets removed
It's so fun

The fact that it only gives you a little 'in', so you have to do a bunch of convoluted steps to expand on that 'in' into something meaningful
is awesome

If you were able to just challenge Golem in pre-boss I feel like that'd be way too simple

[distant gyro]

yeah i prefer rox and temple over

just overcentralizing on the temple

[hollow shell]

There would be no cool ""alternate"" progression path made of niche interactions

You would just skip half the game immediately

[I am heavily biased because I wrote the Rox Shimmer guide.]

[distant gyro]

rox shimmer is also kind of canon in itself

various things were changed to make it possible

[drowsy plank]

fair

[distant gyro]

also as far as im aware of plantera is also a possible boss to do wofless next update

which is a fun one

[drowsy plank]

wild

[idle dagger]

Welcome back suggestions

[hollow shell]

DIED 2024 BORN 2024
Welcome back Calamity Suggestions

[lucid marsh]

The world state caused by killing plantera in prehardmode sounds incredibly weird

Like, I don't know how the world progression state is stored, but suddenly making it not linear sounds like a nightmare

I would think/hope that killing a boss that advances the world progression would advance the world past all the previous ones

[hollow shell]

It's already possible to get PreHM PostML

[lucid marsh]

Ah

That's cursed

[hollow shell]

Granted killing ML himself doesn't cause too many world state changes

[lucid marsh]

I'm amazed it doesn't permanently fuck up the world

[hollow shell]

It is surprisingly stable

[lucid marsh]

The thing I'd be most worried about is evil spread rate

[idle dagger]

Now that suggestions bot is back, we’re likely going to get a large influx of suggestions combined with the ones before the bot died
Is it possible, for next delivery period, to send out the top 40% instead of 20%? Or something similar?

[hollow shell]

You can get Scorn Eaters in hell with no Lava Bats or Red Devils

[stable kiln]

oh my god they are out

[lucid marsh]

Entering Hardmode speeds up the spread of world evils and makes them capable of spreading to new blocks, and killing plantera slows it back down to some amount but doesn't remove the ability to spread to those new blocks.

With that in mind, what does doing those things out of order do?

[hollow shell]

Tempted to just say the suggs can take the L in this batch

iunno if it'd be worth it to program in an exception for just this one occurrence

[idle dagger]

That’s fair tbh

[lucid marsh]

Man, that sucks, but it's fair

Countless amazing suggestions are lost to the voting system we have

[hollow shell]

Alas the devs only have limited time and brainpower, we can't just send them everything

[lucid marsh]

Actually, not really fair, but understandable

I suppose that makes sense

But I can already think of a different system that would be vastly better

[idle dagger]

I know Nycro said a month or so ago that they might bring up a way to change the system with the devs or something
I think it was cause 4 suggestions that got over 100 votes didn't get sent lmao
No idea what came of that

[lucid marsh]

I am of the opinion that the vast majority of good suggestions aren't sent in, like at least 2 every week that should have been but weren't

[hollow shell]

That means there were so many suggestions that got over 100 in that batch that even some ones above 100 didn't make the cut

The system is the way it is because the sugg channels fluctuate in audience/attention over time. Like after big updates we'll see a lot more suggs and a lot more people looking at sugg-voting

A batch where all the suggs have higher star counts than normal could mean that they happened to all be banger suggestions,
or it could just mean there were more potential voters watching at that time

[lucid marsh]

I understand this issue, but believe it is a rather bad way to handle it.

[hollow shell]

Historically the star count fluctuations were absolutely caused by differing levels of attention/participation
The star requirement to get sent to the devs was a set threshold value that I had to keep changing, to keep the amount of suggs going to the devs from being too high or too low (around the sweet spot of 20%)
(i.e it started at 35 then I upped it to 50 then to 65 then 90 then 120 then 150 then reduced back down to 120 and so on)

So eventually I said, why not just send the top 20% of suggestions, regardless of what the star average is? That's what I was attempting to do in effect regardless, this is just automating it

[lucid marsh]

I do believe this makes sense, but could have been handled better. For example, with a running average, and a variable amount able to be sent in. In other words, not the top 20% of the current batch, but suggestions that are in the top 20th percentile of performance compared to all past suggestions

Alternatively:

A method of voting that would work might be:

Instead of Stars, suggestions can be voted up or down. Suggestions with a 2:1 ratio of up votes to down votes, as well as at least 20 total up votes, and which haven't been disqualified after a week, are sent in. The total number of votes required can be adjusted to match the expected amount depending on recent activity.

The advantage of this system is that the only thing that would reasonably prevent a popular suggestion from being sent in is that there were an unusually low number of reactions that week, and that can be adjusted either automatically to a running average, or manually to speed up the process, and it would be unlikely to happen twice if the suggestion was reposted later, because the amount required would have been adjusted by then

[lucid marsh]

This system is also good because while the total amount of interactions fluctuates with activity, the ratio of positive to negative reactions depends solely on the popularity of the suggestion and not at all on the number of people reacting, except for at extremely small time scales where random chance causes large fluctuations

[hollow shell]

Changing it from top 20% of current batch to a threshold based on the top 20% of all suggestions ever sent would definitely re-introduce the problem of activity fluctuations causing floods and droughts of suggs getting sent to the devs

[idle dagger]

As unfortunate as it is, there is no 'perfect' method

At the very least, if your suggestion just barely doesn't go through- you can always resuggest it another time, and it's likely to be voted highly again if it was originally

[hollow shell]

A downvote reaction has been suggested before many times indeed
We've always avoided doing it
But I spose it's been a very long time since we've officially considered the idea

[novel belfry]

i dunno

i dont like the idea of downvotes

WAIT WHAT

441 - The Lihzahrd Altar can now be used at all times. - Done ✅

I KNOW THIS AINT #calamity-update-talk

[hollow shell]

Yeah the thing is you are totally allowed to try again if you think you sent your sugg at a bad time

There isn't even an official limit on the amount of times you can repost your sugg

[misty lichen]

downvoting would make inoffensive suggestions even more popular than they already are

i still think the perfect solution is top 20% or above a flat amount

[hollow shell]

Indeed my first thought was that it is valuable for controversial suggestions to reach the devs sometimes

Sometimes good changes are the ones.. not everyone wants

But that's getting into some weird thinking for our popular-vote-based delivery system

[minor spindle]

why not just make it so that any suggestion that has over like 20 less stars than the highest of that period get's in?

[hollow shell]

So if one suggestion is really good then every other one gets fucked?

[lucid marsh]

It could be adjusted to a smaller timeframe between "the current batch" and "forever". The general idea is more important

[lucid marsh]

I would like to point out that this would also reduce the need for balancing the total reaction amount as perfectly, because general opinion ratio is more reliable than just positive reactions

[minor spindle]

you could combine the two so if theres less than the amount that would be normally put in through the current method it would use the current method, so just whichever one has the most is used

[novel belfry]

crackpot idea:
what about by default having any sugg above a set number of votes will be guaranteed to get sent, regardless of if they're in the top 20%?

[minor spindle]

cause that set number would need to be changed all the time

[novel belfry]

yeah...

[hollow shell]

Again, that would re-introduce the problem of activity fluctuations causing floods and droughts of suggs getting sent to the devs

[misty lichen]

1. i just said that
2. the set number wouldnt need to be changed

[errant wren]

i could do math to see if a certain solution i thought of suddenly could work

it probably wont but

i could

[lucid marsh]

It would work with no reaction threshold at all most of the time, the threshold could solely be used to eliminate situations where a suggestion gets through because "100% positive" means "2 people upvoted this and no one downvoted this"

Anyways, my point isn't that you should just tack a negative reaction on, it's that the ratio of positive to negative reactions is a vastly more reliable measurement of quality

[hollow shell]

Okay, I can see the value in that
Getting an average of like the past 5 batches to get a handle on what the overall activity is looking like, and that makes it so batches with lots of good suggestions would not unintentionally pull each other down; they would all be above the dynamic threshold and get sent

(tho it would inadvertently make suggs in the next 5 batches have to work a little bit harder for their votes, cuz the average would be ticked up slightly,
but that'd get blunted out by the other 4 batches with normal vote amounts affecting the average)

[misty lichen]

it isn’t though, it’s a measurement of controversiality

[ripe owl]

BOT IS ONLINE

Hooray

[coral carbon]

Hooray

[lucid marsh]

I disagree. I think you're misunderstanding. A ratio approaching 100% is popular, a ratio between 65% and 35% but with a high number of total reactions is controversial, and a ratio approaching 0% is unpopular

[misty lichen]

yes i know that

that does not indicate quality whatsoever

[slim cairn]

I think this could be easily abused honestly

By trolls and such

[lucid marsh]

I don't understand how it could not be the case

[lucid marsh]

I can't fathom how, plus, troll suggestions are already disqualified

[slim cairn]

What is stopping someone from mass downvoting shit just because they felt like it

[slim cairn]

Doesnt have to be suggestions

I meant the downvotes themselves

[lucid marsh]

Simply sending in the suggestions above 75% popularity should work

[idle dagger]

Tbh if someone saw someone downvote, they'd definitely want to ask why

[lucid marsh]

You would need a bunch of people working together to achieve something with that, and it is publicly visible who reacts to a message and with what

If someone exclusively downvotes things, ban them

[misty lichen]

if i were to say “buff this very easy boss”, it’d be downvoted nonstop no matter what because the people reading the post because people simply want the game to be easier for them

that is how

[hollow shell]

(A bit of an issue I have is that the more factors and math we introduce in the name of fairness,
the harder the system is to explain, it gets less intuitive and more black-box-y

I suppose we could get Nycro to make the bot send a message with each batch delivery that's like
showing the current average and current threshold)

(this is overall a minor concern though)

[lucid marsh]

This is equally as much of a problem with the current system, and it is simply ignored by the devs

[misty lichen]

so it doesn’t fix the problem at all is what you’re saying

[lucid marsh]

I personally think "suggestions that more people like than dislike are sent in" is easy

[misty lichen]

because controversiality not making it in compared to very inoffensive suggestions is the problem

[lucid marsh]

It fixes a completely different and unrelated problem. I don't know where you got the idea that the main problem we have is that.

[slim cairn]

Wouldnt that have the same issue of people not reading enough and automatically downvoting?

[misty lichen]

what is the problem, that you don’t have enough suggestions? that suggestions you don’t like are getting in?

[slim cairn]

What stops them from just keep doing what they are doing now

[novel belfry]

another crackpot idea:
the "top 20%" should numberwise exclude the most voted sugg in a batch. that one will still get in, but the system will still assume the top 20% is of the second highest voted sugg.

For example, lets say my sugg asking for an Absorber upgrade (never will happen but this is an example) gets 150 stars, and Jose_gonzales_2009's suggestion asking to revert the Gamma Heart to before its reworked version gets 102 stars. Jose's sugg ends up being 2nd place in the batch of suggs.
My crackpot idea would say that instead of having the top 20% be determined by my sugg's exorbitant 150 stars, it would base the 20% off of Jose's 102 stars.
I'm not sure how to adequately explain this with my stupid brain but yeah

[slim cairn]

Idk i just personally dont think its gonna solve a lot

[novel belfry]

(i took so long to write this that roverdrivex's point about making the system too complex was posted)

[lucid marsh]

I actually have a completely different (compatible with any system) way from what I was talking about before to solve the issue you two have

[slim cairn]

Which is

[coral carbon]

What about sorting the suggs by the number of stars and selecting the top 20% without caring on how many stars do they actually have?

[misty lichen]

that works

[lucid marsh]

That's the current system I think?

[idle dagger]

that is the current system

[coral carbon]

oh

[novel belfry]

ya, thats where we at currently

[lucid marsh]

It means that if every suggestion is good, then 80% of good suggestions don't make it in

[slim cairn]

I thought it needed at least 100?

[lucid marsh]

No

[slim cairn]

Huh

Idk where i got the 100 stars from

Then

[errant wren]

that was like years ago i think

[lucid marsh]

Anyways, would you like to hear my idea for a system that fixes the issue you have, and is unrelated to the issue I have?

[novel belfry]

ya

go ahead

[slim cairn]

Yes i did ask for your explanation

[hollow shell]

I think you have the wrong impression about what the current "top 20%" is based on
I don't think your proposal would have any effect whatsoever? Or at most it would just make exactly +1 sugg get sent every batch??

[novel belfry]

honestly i dont know what i was going at

its a crackpot idea. it probably wasnt good anyways

[hollow shell]

1 2 3 4 5
versus
1 2 3 4 200
Have the same amount of numbers in their top 20%. Two of them.

[hollow shell]

(and yeah that is the current system lol)

[novel belfry]

"Suggestions Georg, whose sugg got 221 stars, is an outlier and should not have been counted"

I think this is the logic i was going by

[lucid marsh]

Somewhere, have an explanation of how the suggestion system works, and all the rules for making suggestions and reacting to them.
Somewhere in that explanation, have a line that says: "Click this button in this channel to be allowed to post and vote on suggestions" and "if you click this other button, you will be muted from suggestions for a week."

Disguise the "I read and understand the rules" button as a red reject button and the "I didn't read the rules and shouldn't be let in" button as a green accept button.

[misty lichen]

spider jimmy who eats 3000 spiders a day

[errant wren]

here's a terrible one: top 20% get passed, then the top 20% of whatever's left get in too

[lucid marsh]

Another Server I'm on does this for something similar and it works great

[novel belfry]

it "might" fix that issue of the top sugg getting so many stars that it makes the top 20% much smaller than intended

[novel belfry]

I don't know if RoverdriveX would do somethin like this...

[lucid marsh]

This is just equivalent to doing the top... 35%ish?

[novel belfry]

i WOULD. but i dunno...

[novel belfry]

...you're saying just to make the % of suggs sent higher?

[errant wren]

that's why i called it terrible, it doesn't accomplish anything

[novel belfry]

anyways lemme go complain about the fishing changes in a different server, this stuff is too big brained for me

[hollow shell]

lol.
This also isn't the first time a "must acknowledge that you've read the rules" system has been proposed, either.

[novel belfry]

i've thought about this

purely for #calamity-update-talk

[hollow shell]

Very interesting channel to choose

[novel belfry]

just to get people to understand the "There are no dates for a Calamity update" thing

[hollow shell]

ahhhh

Makes sense

[novel belfry]

still. it feels mildly cruel

[hollow shell]

Actually getting kinda nefariously minded thinking about that

You can force EVERY member of the server to know/acknowledge a specific thing by locking access to all channels behind a test requiring you to state something

You can make that be whatever you want...

[novel belfry]

Make them acknowledge that Skibidi Toilet isn't the worst thing on the planet

[hollow shell]

"You must type 'Calamitas is asexual and does not want to have sex with me.' to continue."

[slim cairn]

30% of the server gets banned (they dont acknowledge that aroace people exist sadly)

I have seen something like that be done to a server i was in a while ago

In form of a giveaway

The title was something normal

But the description of the giveaway was all, in caps

"DO NOT REACT TO THIS GIVEAWAY, OR YOU WILL BE BANNED"

I think over 50 people got banned lol

Some probably bots, others werent

[novel belfry]

30% of the server after they refuse to abide by RoverdriveX's instated requirement to acknowledge that Calamitas is asexual and does not want to have sex with them

[slim cairn]

[lucid marsh]

I understand. I suggest it because it works incredibly well. On this one Minecraft mod server I'm on, like 80% of new users get a grey role that says "I click buttons without reading" and when they say "make 1.20.3 now" gets their screen filled with a bot message saying that there's no ETA and they just broke the rules

The people that run the server are nice enough to not ban them and give them another chance instead.

[novel belfry]

that's probably how i'd do it

do not ban the people IMMEDIATELY for a misunderstanding they had

[lucid marsh]

It's not just a misunderstanding, but also being too lazy to read the text that tells you the information you wanted to know which was put right in front of you

[novel belfry]

could help to teach kids too to take their time to not just click through everything

[lucid marsh]

and also lying by saying you read the rules without actually doing so

it could. This system should be used everywhere. You get a time out if you don't follow/read rules

even for adults who act like bratty children

[novel belfry]

crude, but effective

[lucid marsh]

sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones. People need to face consequences and be shamed for bad behavior.

[misty lichen]

ok i wasnt gonna say anything but MAN

imagine having to waste like 10 minutes of your fucking time every time you join a discord server that you’re never going to interact with

there is a reason those systems are universally hated

[lucid marsh]

Here's the thing: It isn't even 10 minutes. It's like 20 seconds. People need to learn to be patient.

[novel belfry]

but honestly RoverdriveX's idea is fucking hilarious

i couldnt stop laughing

[misty lichen]

no it is not

[lucid marsh]

If it's done well it doesn't have to be. Unless you have dyslexia, which like, sucks, but still

[novel belfry]

im going to guess that schmoovi's dismay at this idea is due to the potential of a server forcing you to look through its ENTIRE LIST OF RULES

and the possbility that said list could... be long.

it can take time

and also

quizes

[lucid marsh]

anyways, a good implementation of this system will make you just take at most a minute to do this. Usually it won't be more than that

[slim cairn]

Quizzes would be uber dogshit imo

If a server tries to do that im leaving, and i read the rules

[open gyro]

When summoning the bumble bird, make it have a stupidly rare chance of saying "bumble fuck has awoken"

[novel belfry]

I remembered the SoA server had a really cursed incident where the owner tried to do a complex version of this

maybe thats why im partly... mildly... extremely mildly opposed to that idea

[lucid marsh]

it doesn't have to be a quiz, it just has to be a "React to THIS message with THIS reaction to get access to the server" in the middle of the rules

anyways, yes these systems can be done badly, but they can solve all our problems if done well

[novel belfry]

I mean, i could forsee some goofball getting used to avoiding this, but for first timers it definitely will get them

and the goofball will be an exception that can be dealt with... by a moderator

[lucid marsh]

yeah, exactly

if you knowingly see this system, understand what it is, and disregard it, you should be immediately and permanently banned

[hollow shell]

(Nah I wasn't saying that as a downside I just thought it was funny.
It is a good system if you're really trying to prevent a specific behavior or enforce rule reading or otherwise)

[hollow shell]

They do kinda have it but for a different purpose

[idle dagger]

actually wait
the bot shouldn't post anything friday would it

nothing will be older than 7 days

[lucid marsh]

hey, I know a server that should do this

[olive saddle]

if your sentence doesnt have calamity in it you're banned immediately

[grim tusk]

c l i c k t o d i e

[patent marsh]

[oblique otter]

wouldn't that kill the exploration part of calamity mod

[lucid marsh]

I don't think so

"exploration" is not "systematically digging out rows of the entire area the object you want might be in"

Hiding things too well encourages the latter

The optimal way to encourage exploration is to leave hints elsewhere in the world indicating where the secret is

[hollow shell]

Which shrines do and don't have light sources cuz I feel like that's a big factor

I think Crimson is the only one without a light source actually
All others have something

Alright

[dense ravine]

crimson is really easy to find tho

shit just sits in one of the big open crimson rooms

[hollow shell]

It is indeed very big and there's not many places it can be in (PreHM evils being what they are)

[dense ravine]

i think the hardest to find are granite, marble and snow (cause biome is massive)

[hollow shell]

Surface shrine is easy to find because it hijacks the Enchanted Sword vertical tile gap thing

[hollow shell]

Agreed
Even though the marble and granite ones are restricted to their caves, those caves are spread throughout the whole world

[dense ravine]

maybe just like 2-3 shrines in the world

how many granite marble biome are there

[hollow shell]

Tryna think of how to execute an item that very vaguely points you in the direction of a shrine

More vaguely than the lab locators

Like a really expensive one-time-use consumable that shoots a shotgun blast cone of "it's somewhere in that direction"

[dense ravine]

wulfrum type thingy

[hollow shell]

(If you've ever played The Sea Has No Claim by Lucas Pope,
(which I recommend you do, it's free and short)
That's all about trying to deduce the exact location of something through a lot of vague broad indicators)

(Like placing down a Buoy that draws a ring around itself
And the object you're looking for is somewhere on that ring.
You don't know where on the ring, but it's along it, it intersects it)

[lucid marsh]

Idea: many smaller shrines throughout the world that each contain an interactable object, and the object creates a little particle pulse in the general direction of either a main shrine or the nearest mini shrine that points to a main shrine

[lucid marsh]

Reminds me of Minecraft stronghold mechanics

[hollow shell]

mhm not a bad comparison

[lucid marsh]

Suppose each shrine generates other useless shrines in a ring pattern around itself, like the Minecraft strongholds around the origin in Minecraft?

Maybe not completely useless, but not very useful

[hollow shell]

That'd be neat.

[lucid marsh]

And each shrine could have different rules for its pattern

Like maybe one of them is rings, one of them is a branching tree or river with the source being the main shrine, one of them is an X with the intersection of the X being the main shrine

Stuff like that

[hollow shell]

(Spoilers, way back when, we've thought of an idea like that in dev for an unrelated item that we planned to give natural gen)
(Objects in the world that would each point you in a direction, and you gotta do some triangulation / line following & intersection deduction to see where exactly they're all pointing to)

[oblique otter]

eye of ender

[hollow shell]

indeed.

That is kinda what our current Lab locators do too

although in the dev plan case the objects are static and pre-genned

not player-created

[lucid marsh]

You should. Do that

Or the thing I said

I think mine is cooler

[hollow shell]

Each shrine following a different 'triangulation' mechanic is cute

[lucid marsh]

I feel like granite and marble should be on opposite sides of the world from each other

Not just the shrines, but the majority of the biomes

Like, instead of being spread randomly, there should be an increasing number of each minibiome the closer you get to a single spot picked somewhere in roughly the 1/4th and 3/4th line of the world

And the shrine should be at the middle of that

[hollow verge]

that sounds way too complicated to use

id prefer something like the lab locator

[stable kiln]

galaxia suggestion is doing well this is so epic

[violet zephyr]

I still think my idea is the best.
#suggestions-discussion message

[stable kiln]

pretty cool idea

and if distortion will be locked behind ceaseless void it's plausible

but that's still very far to the future

[violet zephyr]

Distortion is also very slightly related to the cosmos in general already, with Devourer of God's summoning item being the Cosmic Worm, and the metal found in the Distortion being Cosmilite.

[drowsy plank]

oh boy shrine locator and rogue consumables

surely they will pass this time

[round ravine]

Wait, it was suggested before?

If that's the case, then I'll remove my suggestion.

[drowsy plank]

pretty sure they were, i mean we had a big discussion about it just before the bot died

i forget what the results of it were

[violet zephyr]

It was a discussion of turning weapons of one class to another class, simply because of its sprite/how it was used.

[echo kestrel]

roxcalibur locator

[sand marlin]

Nah keep it as is make us work for it

[echo kestrel]

true

honestly it's just nice every now and then to land the roxcalibur jackpot

and get that pre-hm bloody worm scarf

and amalgamated brain

[olive saddle]

I have not once found roxcalibur in my like 1500 hours of calamity

[distant gyro]

considering how powerful that item is for reasons

[echo kestrel]

the main draw really is the shimmerability of it into souls of night

even if it's so much more difficult to reproduce consistently without revealing the map, it somehow feels dirtier to do than the polter arena shadow key skip

[grim tusk]

The only reason rox is not shimmer locked is due to low% wofless funnies

But if i had it my way it would be

[violet zephyr]

And yet, people will still say that Calamity, and its clearly only developer, Fabsol, hates fun.

[drowsy plank]

fair enough

[grim tusk]

Although sometimes WoFless funnies are fun to watch

Sometimes

[hollow shell]

Oh I didn't see that before

Yeah that would be rad. We love wacky obtainment methods

[coral carbon]

The last time I heard that was when the flavour text of Sparkle Slime Balloon was removed

[sand marlin]

@marble bone Bloodworm is being removed

[hollow shell]

It is?

[coral carbon]

Yes

[violet zephyr]

Good news! This doesn't count for SIS!

Bad news. Bloodworm is most likely getting removed next update in favour of a new way of Old Duke spawning.

[hollow shell]

Yeah I was just gonna say this is not an SIS so you're good in that regard

[violet zephyr]

You know how next update is the Sunken Sea Overhaul? Remove the "Sunken" part.

[marble bone]

ok how did i manage to suggest something that seemed like it broke a rule, didn't, but won't be added because of other factors

[marble bone]

s e a

so just add the stuff to the regular sea?

or like the abyss but for the sea

[violet zephyr]

Sulphuric Sea is getting many changes.

Acid Rain included.

[hollow verge]

sea overall, sunken or otherwise

[marble bone]

just call it the moist update

[violet zephyr]

No.

[gray bone]

simone sea update

[marble bone]

why so serious

[coral carbon]

Calamity's Sea Overhaul

As it overhauls the seas added by Calamity

[marble bone]

the wetter and better update

[violet zephyr]

The Aquatic Update for Minecraft 1.13.

[marble bone]

WETTER AND BETTER

[violet zephyr]

No.

[gray bone]

[marble bone]

CALL IT WETTER AND BETTER

or else

i will uh uh uh say "french fries" 5 times fast

[dense ferry]

As I've seen someone call it

Super Sea Overhaul

[serene tendon]

"441 - The Lihzahrd Altar can now be used at any time in Hardmode. - Done"
Let's gooooooooooooooo

[hollow shell]

in Hardmode

oh thank god

[serene tendon]

Oh

How did I not see that

🤦‍♂️

[hollow shell]

No it's good because it means the Rox Shimmer game-win no-WoF strat still remains convoluted and difficult

something something words in bible

[serene tendon]

At least you can still sequence break with the eidolon tablet

[hollow shell]

indeed

[serene tendon]

But then you also have to do the pillars with PHM gear

Even less fun of an idea than Golem

[serene tendon]

Remind me what the Rox Shimmer strat is again? I think it's been explained to me before, but I forgot it lol

[hollow shell]

Actually you can do them with CalClone and Ravager gear and post-Golem item sets because-

yep

https://calamitymod.wiki.gg/wiki/Guide:Skipping_Wall_of_Flesh

My recent creation, pride and joy, so I am sharing it wherever I can

[serene tendon]

Neat!

I actually don't think I've ever found Roxcalibur, so that'd be fun 💀

[open crown]

random idea: should the devs add something like an upgrade line to the Moab and go from the moab to the bfb, then the zomg and the final upgrade the bad

[gray bone]

poor ddt, getting neglected like that

[open crown]

didn't know where would it fit

[novel belfry]

hell would the ddt be? a combination between the moab and statis’s belt of shadows?

[echo leaf]

Greater horizontal mobility and hover but inferior vertical mobility

[hollow shell]

I remember this being suggested many years ago, back when we still allowed Specific Item Suggestions

We don't allow such suggestions anymore
And the core reasoning is just "Reference!", which is also not allowed because that does not inherently hold water as an argument nor improve the mod

However
There could be merit to suggesting the Bundle of Balloons line get upgrades all the way to endgame, to act as an alternative to wings, instead of ending at MOAB

[novel belfry]

you dont even have to argue to make them partly references, you just know the devs are gonna do that on their own

[hollow shell]

Indeed that's the obvious direction

[distant gyro]

i think moab is clearly the most iconic of all of them and id prefer if it ends there

[serene tendon]

Sidegrade to ZOMG?

And then you combine them for the BAD or something?

[serene tendon]

Makes sense

[hollow shell]

issue is it'd probably mean you have to craft two MOABs or even BFBs which would be obnoxious

[distant gyro]

opening that can of wormholes you can get like lych or something

too many blimps these days..,

[serene tendon]

True, unless it was an alternate thing using the pufferfish balloon and fart in a balloon or something

[echo leaf]

Blastapopolous is a craftable post-ML Rogue weapon...

[open crown]

damn, didn't know a random suggestion can cause a brainstorm 😂

[serene tendon]

It is kinda funny how the MOAB is a mobility accessory, but blimps in those games are infamously slow

(Except the DDT obviously)

[hollow shell]

Calamity MOAB upgrades could focus on giving you more jumps / "flight time" while the DDT specifically would give you few jumps with crazy good horizontal speed like Sandstorm...

[gaunt needle]

Vortex is a craftable post-ML mobility accessory, granting the player 10 double jumps as well as the barrier, activated by taking damage

[hollow shell]

Not a confusing name at all for a Terraria item

[serene tendon]

Or maybe rework it into a line of mounts where you go inside the blimp and take reduced damage (along with slow but infinite flight) at the cost of a much bigger hitbox?

[hollow shell]

That would be very funny

People could abuse it as a "partial parry" type thing where they just quick mount to take less damage then immediately unmount

[gaunt needle]

Vortex

If you were looking for something other than the accessory, see Vortex (disambiguation).

[serene tendon]

"Help, I can't dodge SCal's bullet hells inside of a ZOMG"

[gaunt needle]

anyways is Moab planned to be reworked/buffed at least?

isn't it worse than the bundle

[serene tendon]

Maybe it could have like a separate health bar, and you can't use the mount when it loses all of it (health only regaining when you die or something)

[novel belfry]

i dunno, since i havent played btd6 (shocker!), i guess just stick with moab bfb and zomg, and maybe ddt somewhere there

[gaunt needle]

go play btd6 tbh...

[serene tendon]

Wings clash with the sandstorm, for some reason they cap the sandstorm's horizontal speed substantially

Therefore, an acc that is both wings and balloons won't work

[novel belfry]

ya\

dunno why

[serene tendon]

Until they realize that when doing that, they suddenly take damage from 7 other sources as well due to the sudden hitbox increase lol. Is it even possible, within Terraria's code, to change the player hitboxes?

[gaunt needle]

most mounts already do that iirc

[serene tendon]

oh yeah that's right

[gaunt needle]

and you can't really take damage from 7 other sources since iframes exist

(unless you miss the timing and don't unmount in time)

[serene tendon]

Right

[hollow shell]

yeah idk why MOAB has Jetpack in it
I feel like that ruins the point

[gaunt needle]

it's uhh

the MOAB engine obviously

[hollow shell]

Maybe when it was developed like 7 years ago, Fab/whoever didn't know how to program in more jumps so they just went with flight time to make up for it

[serene tendon]

Yeah, that makes sense. An example of a reference being taken seriously enough as a reference that it fails to bend to the game mechanics

[hollow shell]

In fact I'm almost certain of that because I know giving Statigel Armor a new custom jump was a huge pain in the ass

[serene tendon]

Huh

[hollow shell]

Nowadays I think we can do much better

[serene tendon]

Couldn't Fab have just added the two other balloons to the MOAB and made it balanced that way?

Without adding new double jumps?

[median scaffold]

Give MOAB 33 more jumps

[hollow shell]

Be careful with using the word "just" in that way

Downplays the potential difficulty/problems in doing that in execution, esp when you don't have experience doing it yourself

Just a PSA

That would be an option worth exploring though, if it hasn't been tried already

3 to 5 jumps ain't bad, and even if it ain't as good as wing flight time you can make up for it with movement speed boosts, particularly jump speed

[median scaffold]

Featherfall potions can't really ruin jump accessories, so there's that

[serene tendon]

I figured it'd be much easier to use jumps that already exist, given the aforementioned problems with making new ones. Maybe I figured wrong.

[hollow shell]

I do think Statigel reused the Tsunami jump for a long time actually

Although I could be wrong

[distant gyro]

sulphur and fart

stati and tsunami

something along

back in the day it was insanely difficult to make a custom double jump

and when a custom one was made there was an infinite jump glitch

the cherry on top

so yes ~2017 probably couldn't have just added a custom jump

messing up statigel was a real possibility

[hollow shell]

But now, though,
We have technology

[gaunt needle]

wall of text suggestion woo

[violet zephyr]

Pierce Resist is to prevent items from killing worms in two nanoseconds, not to utterly cripple the weapon.

If you think there is a problem with certain weapons, then a #1178515062030348308 may be better suited.

[gaunt needle]

I believe that this is a problem with worms and CC weapons as a whole and not the specific weapons

[hollow shell]

Hence their 1st proposal at the end of the sugg

[gaunt needle]

the second proposal is kinda scuffed since the message limit tbh

[hollow shell]

I can tell this will be a controversial suggestion especially among testers

[distant gyro]

note that pierce resistance is also applied to single targets with large hitboxes

that is definitely a case 2

[violet zephyr]

Which skews the problem the other way, which clearly isn't the intention if a Pierce Resist system was added in the first place.

[crude geode]

I’d really love if crowd control weapons had more of a niche but as it stands it’s really hard for them to stand out in Cal since almost every weapon has like 500 pierce

[gaunt needle]

yeah, i kinda wanted to touch on bosses with single large hitbox but honestly i don't believe they are very different from multiple segments

[distant gyro]

i dont really know what to think since as it stands, bosses like desert scourge do have almost 2x as its counterpart

[crude geode]

It also doesn’t help that 99.9999% of Cal’s balance is based around bosses

So even if a weapon is good for events/general exploration, it still has to be balanced around bosses

[distant gyro]

and as mentioned, large single target bosses like aureus also has ~50% more health

[gaunt needle]

it might not even be the problem with bosses themselves but the weapons instead

[distant gyro]

admittedly eow has like 5x the health of eoc but eow is like the most impractical kind of health

you can pop 2-3 segments at once multiple times throughout the fight

[crude geode]

EoW is such a funny boss

[distant gyro]

segment popping simulator

[gaunt needle]

i'm fairly certain that something like wave pounder has single target damage that is on par on most other weapons while also damaging in wide area

[median scaffold]

To be fair, BoC isn't that much different in the first phase

[distant gyro]

wave pounder being that large is ridiculous

but if it was small it would feel so impactless

so its trading balance for feel

[echo leaf]

Wave pounder is so satisfying

[distant gyro]

its the least balanceable weapon ever

but you feel like you have gods nuke in your hand

[graceful vapor]

yay bot is back up

[gaunt needle]

hey listen, wave pounder rework idea:

[echo leaf]

https://tenor.com/view/enough-talky-lizard-funny-lizard-shush-shut-up-gif-13234223691051860300

[median scaffold]

Make it GFB Supernova, but you get killed regardless (even with dodges, etc.)

[gaunt needle]

it stickes to the enemies when you throw it and starts a timer, then all of them detonate at once

[median scaffold]

SIS yourself

[gaunt needle]

with the screen shaking begin increased with the amount (and how many of those were stealth strikes)

[gaunt needle]

SIS this SIS that

how about you uhh

[median scaffold]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1157541778556194910/1274253194498670702/image_2.gif

Horse

[distant gyro]

also not generalized cal issue though

vanilla has some egregious ones too: stardust dragon, charged blaster cannon to name a few

jesters arrows have a pierce penalty; its nowhere near enough

etc

tome of infinite cheese

hell, golden shower

[violet zephyr]

No, but you see. This is only a problem with Calamity, because Calamity does it, too.

[distant gyro]

true...

its being suppressed slowly though

[median scaffold]

Make every weapon 0 pierce, except... uhh... Flamefrost Blade

[gaunt needle]

vanilla doesn't have that many worms though

[distant gyro]

so are all the damn infinite lifespan weapons

[violet zephyr]

Vanilla never has flaws, and all other mods also don't have flaws either. Calamity is the only flawed mod.

[distant gyro]

or 5 minutes

[violet zephyr]

Fabsol, the only Calamity developer, also hates fun.

[gaunt needle]

and also "vanilla has that as well, so it's clearly not a problem" is not the best argument

[crude geode]

God

[violet zephyr]

I never said it was an arguement. I'm simply making fun of people who only think this is an issue with Calamity, when in reality it is an issue of how Terraria is designed, fundamentally.

[gaunt needle]

yes, we get it, "you are pointing out flaws of the mod because you hate the mod and the developer", very helpful

[crude geode]

Summoning queen bee during Yharon used to be such a constant

[distant gyro]

infinite lifespan weapons are what makes mappy speedkills possible though so you gotta respect it

[crude geode]

Very true

[distant gyro]

except triploon you can respect its GRAVE

[hollow shell]

Once again we pay the price of trying to tightly balance a casual single-player sandbox game

[gaunt needle]

wait what happened to the triploon actually

is it just no longer in the game?

[violet zephyr]

It died.

[distant gyro]

removed pretty long ago

as in 2 years prob. not that long but long

[violet zephyr]

It was removed in 2.0.0.001.

As many items and weapons were.

[hollow shell]

I do feel the need to mention something
The reduction in damage on piercing weapons is not a total reduction (at least in the way that the sugg describes how the current system works, which iirc is correct)

The first hit always deals full damage at least, and all the other hits do register

They will still be more effective than no-pierce weapons on a per-shot basis

Not every worm boss is uhhhh Sepulcher
(old Sepulcher?)
where the proj is forced to only hit once then gets deleted

[crude geode]

Funniest shit ever

[distant gyro]

1 hit
2 hits -> 1.88 hits
3 hits -> 2.65 hits
4 hits -> 3.33 hits

[hollow shell]

Yeah

[distant gyro]

not that big of a loss

[median scaffold]

Why was it removed, other than the overall weapon bloat?

[gaunt needle]

actually there is a boss that is different
it says something like "piercing projectile damage is divided by the number of times it pierces, infinite pierce projectiles have x% damage"

[distant gyro]

uninspired in concept and at time removal pretty impractical

[hollow shell]

Which one's that?

[gaunt needle]

https://calamitymod.wiki.gg/wiki/Storm_Weaver
"Projectile damage is divided by the number of times it pierces and infinite piercing deals 50% damage."

[hollow shell]

I see

[distant gyro]

(short-ranged weapon when it bosses used to always do contact damage)

[gaunt needle]

is that actually the way this works?

[distant gyro]

funnily enough either sw resist does not work or is actually like not that great

because sw is so meltable

[median scaffold]

...actually, I would like to have a small reason to why the item is removed on the Wiki

[misty lichen]

cal pierce resist is seriously one of the least intrusive worm systems ever

@gaunt needle are you playing on infernum? it uses its own separate pierce resist system for worms, which reduces your damage even further and faster than basecal and actually does “make single target weapons do better than multitarget”

[gaunt needle]

no i don't

my suggestion is based on how many single-target weapons are actually considered good/best on worm bosses

[misty lichen]

can you give an example?

[gaunt needle]

like even on the class setups only around half of weapons for DoG are actually CC with everything else being comparably low pierce ones

[hollow shell]

DoG has huge body segment DR though

[violet zephyr]

That is because DoG is unique in that its head and tail have absolutely no defense at all, allowing single target weapons to still be usable.

[misty lichen]

this is because dog has the head damage mechanic with its segments having 90% dr from all damage

[hollow shell]

You're only meant to focus on- yeah

[violet zephyr]

Considerably harder to use, but still very much usable and very worth to perform.

[gaunt needle]

yet DoG still takes only 20% damage from wave pounder

[violet zephyr]

Yes, because Wave Pounder was that good.

It was brain dead and overpowered.

[misty lichen]

yes because wave pounder was able to hit both the head and tail at the same time

[distant gyro]

dog is pretty complicated

[misty lichen]

every hit

[distant gyro]

because unlike a crawltipede or sw phase 1

there are 2 weak spots

if you hit 2 its twice as good clearly

[violet zephyr]

Being able to kill DoG in under a minute with barely any aim is indeed overpowered, which is why it was nerfed.

[misty lichen]

it’s not a fault of the worm resist system it’s the fault of dogs mechanics

which are completely separate

[hollow shell]

(and the fault of Wave Pounder)

[distant gyro]

also if each hit triggers an on-hit effect that is aoe, it also messes up dog badly

[novel belfry]

ya

wave pounder... was truly something

[gaunt needle]

those resistance are nowhere to be found in game, so that results in wave pounder dealing less damage despite looking like the perfect weapon

[distant gyro]

because you spawn collateral aoe that will still hit the weak spots for full damage

[violet zephyr]

If anything, DoG proves that Crowd Control weapons obliterate worms.

[novel belfry]

It was truly one of the most insane weapons of all time

[hollow shell]

That is a valid concern

Specific weapon resistances are very poorly communicated. In fact they are not communicated.

[distant gyro]

i believe they are like that because you aren't supposed to notice them

[misty lichen]

so what’s this have to do with the worm resistance suggestion then

[distant gyro]

if you are told that a weapon resists xyz you will immediately believe its bad dont use it

[gaunt needle]

that's what im trying to tell, the issue is not that "CC obliterates worms" or "single target is for some reason good on worms", it's that you are often punished for trying to find the perfect weapon (which is obviously large explosion against the worms) by the resistances

[misty lichen]

if all of this is only stemming from wave pounder which is a completely separate issue you have

[distant gyro]

when in actually it may still be the best option just not gamebreaking

[violet zephyr]

No one has ever used Lacerator on DoG ever since that tooltip has existed.

[distant gyro]

this is intensely a psychological thing

happens all the time with nerfs and buffs and etc

[misty lichen]

then rewrite the suggestion to be about weapon specific resistances

bc this doesn’t have anything to do with worm pierce resistance being too harsh or too light

that’s just a misinterpretation of the systems

[hollow shell]

eh yeah I can see that
Gives the impression that it's nerfed to be bad instead of nerfed to be equal/reasonable

[crude geode]

But then sometimes it doesn’t happen (how ya doing muramasa)

[round ravine]

I just noticed the Hellkite uses the Volcano in this recipe, thus requiring me to craft two Volcanos for the Terratomere.

Anybody else think this feels a tad redundant?

[distant gyro]

welp

you can rejoice when hellkite becomes a drop instead

[violet zephyr]

Terratomere is just that strong.

[distant gyro]

and also not in terratomere's recipe

[violet zephyr]

That it needs two volcanoes powering it.

[gaunt needle]

Edited the suggestion a bit

[round ravine]

Oh. I was gonna suggest to make the player use Hellstone bars in its recipe, but that works too.

[hollow shell]

Volcano's not super expensive anyway

[hollow shell]

neat

[echo kestrel]

Is it out of the question to suggest spectre bars be able to shimmer into shroomite bars and vice versa?

It does however prevent the ability to shimmer them back into their ingredients. At the very least, it's a QoL change that makes it a lot less tedious to get shroomite bars.

[errant wren]

i would argue against that

[golden sonnet]

it seems strange to make ectoplasm shimmer into glowing mushrooms, and would remove the need for truffle entirely

[errant wren]

i don't have many reason for it other than that it's just not a good exchange??

and glowing mushrooms are not hard to come by

[echo kestrel]

Yeah, I can understand the change would effectively void the need to

• create an artifical mushroom biome on the surface
• create valid housing on said mushroom biome
• wait for truffle to move in

[violet zephyr]

We don't need to make Truffle any more useless.

[echo kestrel]

It's not the gathering glowing mushrooms that are the issue, it's the need for one to create an entire mini-biome and valid housing for a singular npc that allows you to purchase a crafting station that will only then allow you to create shroomite bars.

Maybe then the solution is to just allow Truffle to move in within underground mushroom biomes?

[errant wren]

you don't even need that many materials? i've personally never had an issue building mini-biomes

[echo kestrel]

Me neither, but it's a valid tedium that has no other counterpart in the game

[median scaffold]

Can a suitable house naturally generate in the underground mushroom biome?

[errant wren]

it's just such a weird non-issue to bring up

[median scaffold]

Imo, it is just a little bit too annoying to make an entire artifial biome for an NPC you will use once or twice

[errant wren]

but it's not entirely that much work either

you can get away with blowing up part of the surface of the jungle and just placing a bunch of the mushroom grass seeds to grow a surface mushroom

not that i would do that

[crude geode]

With how big glowing mushroom biomes naturally are, you can acquire the seeds for it so quickly

[errant wren]

and god forbid you build something in the sandbox game

isn't there also mushroom planetoids?

[echo kestrel]

Not always unfortunately

[errant wren]

that's true..

[echo kestrel]

You have to convert one

And converting jungle grass into mushroom isn't as easy as it sounds

You can't place mushroom grass seeds on jungle grass to convert

[errant wren]

well obviously not, that's why i brought up exploding

[echo kestrel]

Maybe then, my suggestion would be to be able to plant mushroom grass on existing jungle grass?

[edgy sundial]

mine mud
place mud
place mushroom seeds

[errant wren]

this is why i called it a non-issue

this inherently isn't that much of a problem

[echo kestrel]

you dont need to do that when converting forest grass into hallow/crimson/corruption

you have powders and holy water

[edgy sundial]

you also don't have to walk to the edge of the world to fish for forest fish, should ocean fish appear in surface forest ponds?

[errant wren]

and the other thing is that you don't really need either bar if you're not playing ranger or mage...

and i feel like most classes have that one thing that's just not necessary for the others

[echo kestrel]

I don't know, should they?

You seem to know more about that

[edgy sundial]

you can craft bars up to gold/platinum at a regular furnace. should the hellforge and adamantine/titanium forges be removed and all bars be smelted at a furnace?

[echo kestrel]

I don't know, should they?

[edgy sundial]

"these two similar things do not take the exact same amount of effort" is not a very good reason for anything

[echo kestrel]

The thing is, what similar things are you talking about?

[errant wren]

i feel the need to say that we should try not to get too heated about this

[echo kestrel]

Shroomite has no other counterpart for its crafting process

[errant wren]

if you mean the whole process of getting it to begin with then you have a point

[echo kestrel]

That is what I mean, yes.

[errant wren]

that said, shimmering spectre bars involves finding the shimmer lake

so it's not really doing much to solve the issue

[echo kestrel]

Indeed, hence why I also was open to changing the suggestion to like, just allowing truffle to move in underground

[edgy sundial]

may as well make spectre ore appear underground instead of combining an enemy drop with bars, then. nothing else crafts like spectre

[errant wren]

astral bars...

[echo kestrel]

^

[errant wren]

well, ore, but still

[edgy sundial]

yes astral bars, but shroomite and spectre aren't calamity additions; i figured it'd be better to compare vanilla to vanilla where possible

[errant wren]

yeah but like we're also discussing in the context of changing something from vanilla so

but overall, i personally believe that shroomite bar obtainment is a non-issue

[echo kestrel]

though I do agree, it's practically a non-issue
I'm genuinely being honest here, I actually have no bias for wanting the change, as I don't even play ranger so this is just coming from an observational standpoint really

[errant wren]

though i can't say that you shouldn't suggest changing it up

[edgy sundial]

variety is not a bad thing

[errant wren]

at the end of the day, we're just playing the game

[echo kestrel]

troo dat

well, I'll let it simmer I guess

[wide river]

Right I guess I can put this back in now

[novel belfry]

i dunno, you could also ask to rework the weapon too

as a second option

removing an item isnt generally going to get stars unless the item in question is a material contributing to material bloat

[echo kestrel]

Yea, genuinely curious, what made you decide to ultimately want it removed rather than doing killtime tests and asking for a buff/rework in #1178515062030348308 ?

[wide river]

I prefer to distance the weapon's performance from the actual weapon when it comes to suggestions

As for why I wanted it removed, I talked a little about that back here #suggestions-discussion message

[novel belfry]

i only remember it because i wanted to have it replace the sky fracture in The Dance of Life's recipe

cause right now its just the sky fracture... despite there being two upgrades to that

[lucid marsh]

What a shame to remove the ultra liquidator because you just couldn't let it keep the things that made it interesting. Sometimes, removing things that seem like unnecessary extras is a bad idea, because an item can be more than just the sum of it's parts

[novel belfry]

or even

[lucid marsh]

Like, it isn't a balance issue. You just took away the thing that made it fun and at least a little unique

[novel belfry]

why not ask for a suggestion to buff Ultra Liquidator's debuff durations back up?

[lucid marsh]

It's not debuff durations, it's that the debuffs were removed entirely

[novel belfry]

i mean yeah

[olive saddle]

The fuck why

[lucid marsh]

We aren't allowed to, I think?

[echo kestrel]

Mage is notorious for being one of the weaker (read: slower kill times) classes in calamity right now, wouldn't removing one of its weapons rather than reworking it be sorta harmful?

[echo kestrel]

That's a thing for #1178515062030348308

[lucid marsh]

Because obviously the developers never make mistakes that we can identify but they can't?

[novel belfry]

i dunno man

[errant wren]

i think it would've fallen under reversions

[lucid marsh]

I disagree. It isn't just a balance issue. It's the design of the weapon itself. It's lost it's entire identity

[lucid marsh]

Yeah

Search "reversion"

Maybe

[novel belfry]

from what im seeing in the sugg guidelines, they specifically say "DON'T: ask for Content Removals to be reverted"

[olive saddle]

This also includes changes-- people were pissed about murasama changes and it was illegal to suggest a revert though that may have been because of the brainrot fandom and not because it lost what made it interesting

[novel belfry]

Where?

[golden sonnet]

you can suggest reversions, you just need to have a very good reason as to why

[echo kestrel]

How many options does mage have immediately post-ML currently?

[olive saddle]

Suggs long gone now but it was back in i think septemper or something

Evasion hotfix

[novel belfry]

Ah yes.

Make the Murasama no longer giga big and also make it post-dog for some reason

[wide river]

• Lunar Flare and Last Prism

[olive saddle]

Both are good changes in my eyes

[olive saddle]

Thats a lot of fuggin weapons

Makes sense that you want it removed

[wide river]

You can discount Rouge Slash since it's after Dragonfolly, but otherwise this is all of them

[novel belfry]

asteroid staff is one of the weirdest things to exist now that i think about it

since like

LUNAR FLARE. A VANILLA ITEM.

[echo kestrel]

Also MACG

[wide river]

Draconic Swarmers drop the feathers

[olive saddle]

I forgot they existed

[wide river]

I don't blame you

[echo kestrel]

Are you really gonna go out of your way to farm a rare enemy

Anyway, besides the point I guess

Wand-wise

Mage has 2 other options as well

[drowsy plank]

@gaunt needle okay, beyond everything else, this is a balance suggestion, and it should be in #1178515062030348308, not here, but also i just think that is an awful idea. we already tried giving worms a million billion hp, it just makes single target weapons dogshit on them. the system is fine and plenty of crowd control based weapons are good on worms. in fact a majority are. just take a glance at class setups and see that crowd control based weapons are recommended, and it's usually because they shred worms.

i also just think you're wrong about these kinds of weapons

[wide river]

I always get a little worried when I see you typing for a while Cog

[drowsy plank]

lol

[echo kestrel]

watch cog type up another paragraph just for you

[drowsy plank]

lorum ipsum-

[novel belfry]

why not remove that item? It occupies a role (Mage Weapon that summons lunar-related meteor type projectiles) that a vanilla weapon already exists

[royal tapir]

Oh it's Ultra Liquidator again

Even though I 🔒ed it the last time it was brought up

[lucid marsh]

Imo it is fine for weapons to not always be good in all situations at a tier, but they should be good for something

[echo kestrel]

boutta ultra liquidate the ultra liquidator

[wide river]

It never made it to voting last time

[royal tapir]

I know

[novel belfry]

CIT i might've asked another dev earlier, but why was Ultra Liquidator's debuffs removed? that seems incredibly strange

[royal tapir]

I can't answer that

[olive saddle]

There was a massive debuff wipening a while ago and my assumption is is that they deemed it unnecessary as a bunch of other weapons had debuffs for no reason

Just an assumption though

[royal tapir]

Or rather, I don't have an answer for that

[echo kestrel]

Would it be more prudent to suggest Truffle have their spawning requirements loosened to allow for Underground Mushroom Biomes, or instead, suggest the introduction of a Blue Mushroom powder/water consumable equivalent?

[wide river]

Whatever
If this is just going to get locked in voting I'll just delete it for good

[wide river]

Sounds good to me

[echo kestrel]

No, but which one lmao

[wide river]

I don't think a surface mushroom biome is that hard to set up, but I guess since Shroomite is used in more stuff in Cal, it'd be nice to have Truffle be easier to come by

[echo kestrel]

Or are A-or-B suggestions a thing?

[olive saddle]

I would say getting truffle.is not that hard

Throw steampunker in the underground mushroom and huff blue solution

[echo kestrel]

It's not. Yeah, I personally don't have trouble
But it's really weird shroomite is the only bar with that kind of process to get

Though I personally do want to preserve it, because it's an interesting mechanic

It couldn't hurt to make it a little less troublesome

[novel belfry]

im just gonna submit this because that name just doesnt work anymore

unless for some reason the devs decide to revert the change

[hollow shell]

dang, I was hoping that one would reach voting at least

Also UltraLiq suggestion

Saying that "[the name implies] that you're making an enemy drunk on [debuffs]" is.... interesting?

I figured 'Liquidator' meant.. you were turning them into liquid. Melting them.

[echo kestrel]

I thought so too lol

[novel belfry]

hmm

fair

[drowsy plank]

curious what u mean bc i dont really see it as very good lol

[echo kestrel]

Cog, Rover, hope you don't mind but could I get your insight on this?

[hollow shell]

I feel like a lot of suggs get ❗ because the moderator in question disagrees with the suggestion or thinks it's a bad idea
rather than breaking the rules listed in the sugg doc

which isn't really what Posting is meant to be

The stars and dev ruling are meant to be what gauges agree/disagree and good-idea/bad-idea

[olive saddle]

also isn't #1178515062030348308 for weapons and items

[hollow shell]

^

This is not the kind of thing that gets put in that forum

They could make a post about Wave Pounder specifically if it underperforms, sure
Or other specific resists

But not the universal worm piercing resist

Not the devs' handling of pierce and worms as a whole

[misty lichen]

i still think it should be exclaimed because it makes a very general and incorrect statement

One would naturally expect CC weapons to excel at those bosses (since you are easily able to hit large amounts of worm segments). That is, however, not the case.
90% of the time, the weapons just do excel at those bosses and its presented like this never happens