suggestions-discussion

[novel belfry]

i think its because we have a lot of swords

a bit tad too many

and some of them look cool. might as well not waste their sprites on uh beam sword #120321

[sand marlin]

Didn't we get a whole flamethrowers update

Oh my god not Mana Cloak
Magic Cuffs syndrome except actually usable

[sand marlin]

We do need more magic weapons reworked though tbh

[median scaffold]

I would kill some summons to get better ones in return

And I would kill some summons to get more sentry-content...

But, mage needs reworks

[lucid marsh]

it would be even more fun if the stars fell randomly as well

The only rework mage needs is the removal of mana flower upgrades

Replace them all with mana cloak upgrades

[novel belfry]

i thought for a sec you meant catalyst's flamethrowers, but then i remembered calamity did actually update all of its flamethrowers

so ye

[median scaffold]

Mage in pre-hm:

[undone holly]

which would be signifigantly better if there was more variety in their vanilla placements in progression

you have post skeletron (dungeon magic missle), post skeletron (underworld chest flame lash), and post twins (early hardmode)

[errant wind]

ppl do you think i should suggest to move the credits when you beat the moonlord

because like when you beat moonlord the credits spawn but you usually want to farm some unholy essence etc

it force you to leave

[oblique otter]

idk how you would move the credits tbh

unless it's a very easy thing to move, it looks built into the game if that makes sense?

[misty lichen]

do you not think doing ingame activities while the credits are playing is raw as fuck

[oblique otter]

25103

[sand marlin]

Credits aren't too bad of an obstruction, in most cases they don't really do anything because you sure are not going to be fighting the next boss immediately

[sleek turret]

credits are fine I think

if you want to sit and watch the cutscene sure but I don't think it's really that bad

[fleet grotto]

should be moved to cal endgame imho

[sleek turret]

can't you save and exit and re entering for skipping the cutscene though

cal credits should be endgame and not in a donor item for the love of God

[oblique otter]

I mean it's the basegame credits

[sleek turret]

yea

[oblique otter]

why move it to cal endgame if it has no connection to cal

To solution is to simply move it to post king slime

[wide river]

Make the credits play for every vanilla mob you kill

[sleek turret]

basegame credits are fine as they are i think feels like you're over with vanilla thing

[oblique otter]

constant credit theme

[sleek turret]

the sound of beating The Game

[hollow verge]

yea im fine w the credits as they are

if anything itd just be add cal credits, but that feels appropriate once yharim is added

[vestal lark]

Build-up to a certain point and then immunity?

And yet they still won't nerf the Diabolists >:c

[errant wind]

to scal

[errant wind]

wdym raw asf

[sand marlin]

"How" not "where"

Oh hey a rare moment of an empty #suggestions-posting

[vestal lark]

Okay but does it have vanity now

[echo leaf]

Once some saint submits it in the cal art server

[sand marlin]

Oh hey I didn't notice that Ursa Sergeant rework post huh, interesting

Or I did and just forgot, either way cool

[vestal lark]

I also want to mention that there is a Quick Mana hotkey in the vanilla game.

Also sorry for responding to so much old stuff I haven't looked at this server at all in like a week I'm pretty sure.

Also I can't remember if Deerclops has a Revengeance/Death rework.

[dense locust]

it does

[sand marlin]

Oh yeah I was gonna mention that. Even if you remove mana flowers (this is never happening) there's effectively nothing stopping you from doing the same thing its purpose is supposed to server

[vestal lark]

Please tell me it reworks the Shadow Hands.

[drowsy plank]

bind mana hotkey to walking

[drowsy plank]

they're
different now for sure, but they still exist

i think they're a bit less aggressive? but it really doesn't fix the issue with them

[vestal lark]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1138960073440374795/1228010392295313458/sad_asd.png?ex=662a7ccc&is=661807cc&hm=ae4d4743e9aab134f6952c7bec5cac776db8fc6af27c3d32b1de1d029a0fa7e5&

[drowsy plank]

which is hilarious because it changes the fuckin snowball attack he does which is

[vestal lark]

Genuinely Deerclops is I think the worst boss in the base-game.

[drowsy plank]

who was complaining about that one??

definetly

[glass arch]

wall of flesh

[vestal lark]

Solely because of the hands.

[dense locust]

wof doesnt have telefrags

[vestal lark]

Explode.

[dense locust]

immedietly better boss

[glass arch]

no but it has something worse

hell gen

[sand marlin]

Queen Slime is right there

[dense locust]

queen slime is bad this is true

[drowsy plank]

okay fair actually

deerclops is bad because he is trivial

queen slime is just genuinely obnoxious

[dense locust]

nah

deerclops being easy isnt really why she's bad

[sharp helm]

I really don't think Queen Slime is too bad

Deerclops though? Yeah

[dense locust]

its the fucking hands

[drowsy plank]

no i mean yeah the thing is like

the hands are the only "hard" part of the boss

[vestal lark]

Deerclops is bad because one of its attacks totally throws off the intended rhythm of the boss.

[drowsy plank]

deerclops is managable because it is easy still but queen slime is bad because she's just bad

[sand marlin]

Hands definitely suck but also like they don't actually kill you ever I don't think

If you're dying you're definitely dying to the random snail or spikes freezing you

[sharp helm]

Queen Slime's reasonably fun if you know what you're doing

Deerclops is just "jump up and down repeatedly"

[vestal lark]

Knockback.

[drowsy plank]

yeah

[sand marlin]

Deerclops is post Skele in vanilla

You have Cobalt Shield by then

[vestal lark]

They knock you back into the attacks and block you from going between the legs like you're supposed to.

[vestal lark]

1. it's still potentially-high damage
   and
2. Summoner.

[sand marlin]

It's not high damage

Idk where you're getting that from

It's exactly why I said you're never dying to shadow hands

[dense locust]

its "post skele" but nobody fights like it is
especially since at post skele its drops are frankly awful

[glass arch]

if you're playing summoner so glassy that you cant even afford cobalt shield then thats not a boss issue

[vestal lark]

That is fair.

[sand marlin]

Doesn't justify treating it at any stage before then either way.

[sharp helm]

I'm a nobody lmao

[sand marlin]

The first thing I knew about the boss was its stage funny enough

I fought it pre boss anyway because cheese

Random snail though

Please god no

And it's so trigger happy with inflicting snail

If you stay a little bit out of range even for a short duration it can just say fuck you and inflict it

[vestal lark]

Okay wait the wiki doesn't even say how much damage the Shadow Hands deal.

[sand marlin]

They are expert exclusive

Wait no they aren't

What are you talking about

[vestal lark]

Their random spawns in the fight are.

Also yeah I'm a bingus, found it now.

60?

I swear I've taken way higher than that.

[sand marlin]

This is what I meant, 40 damage in expert is nothing

And when you're post skele you don't get phased at all

They're only annoying

[vestal lark]

Okay I can't put it any better than this let me just-

https://youtu.be/jkp9AxiCZNQ?si=VX2NLdIjiO8anRrp

[sand marlin]

Oh yeah that's what it was

[timber hornet]

SORBETSWEEP

[median scaffold]

What are we talking about rn?

[sand marlin]

Master mode (shadow hands actually do a lot of damage and he has like no defense)
Not using post Skele gear. If the drops aren't good at that stage (which he mentions) then that's the issue with the drops not the boss
As much as Sorbet Cafe is based, he's completely not using a fair ground. Like yeah the shadow hands are annoying but as I've explained earlier it is not that bad

M maybe that's enough boss talk for me I'll bring up queen slime sometime else

[sleek turret]

Deerjak

[vestal lark]

Better drops and tweaked spawn condition then?

[sand marlin]

Sure

I mean, in the middle of a blizzard at night is quite specific but it's not that rare to encounter early on

Maybe something on top of that (absolutely not arbitrary locks) might make it work

Ok no maybe an arbitrary lock could work for natural spawn

[vestal lark]

I was thinking just making it so that it's only post-Skeletron.

[sand marlin]

Original summon item still exists anyway

[vestal lark]

Yeah but that goes for basically everything.

[sand marlin]

No? What other boss has this extremely specific natural encounter that you can potentially get much earlier than you're supposed to

[vestal lark]

No I mean summon items being obtainable earlier than you're intended to fight them.

[lavish condor]

isn't deer thing preboss

[sand marlin]

Oh, no that's fine really

[vestal lark]

Yeah.

What?

[sand marlin]

You are fully aware that you're gonna be fighting a boss that may or may not be out of your expectations (as you don't know the progression order as a new player), and you are choosing to spawn it yourself, not being forced upon it

The blizzard condition is more being forced upon it

That's why locking specifically that natural encounter condition behind Skeletron is fine

[median scaffold]

Wait, what

Is my brain not braining or the game just said "Fuck your suggestion, you're stupid"?

[sand marlin]

What did happen there?

I mean that should be at #1052323733961977947 either way but that was weird

[median scaffold]

I thought other lunar-tier pickaxes, other than Genesis one (rogue) didn't have the "Can mine Uelibloom ore" tooltip, but... uhh, I guess they have this tooltip

[sand marlin]

Something something tooltip oversight belongs to bug forum etc.

That's what I recall

[median scaffold]

Oh, sure

[fervent orbit]

was that ever confirmed

[sand marlin]

Do I need to dig a dev's post or something

[fervent orbit]

yes

[median scaffold]

Jungle stuff is post-EoC

[sand marlin]

Sigh

[median scaffold]

And molten is post-Skeletron

[fervent orbit]

because from what i know, deerclops has never been confirmed to be post skele

[lavish condor]

it's got the stats of a post-skele boss at least

high health and damage

[sand marlin]

Where are perfectly relevant wiki references at right about now...

[lavish condor]

On Expert, deerclops' health is slightly higher than WoF's and its attack damage hovers around that of wof lasers, so I'd say it's around post-skeletron stage

[sand marlin]

I guess it's not post Skeletron? Ehh. Loki's post https://forums.terraria.org/index.php?threads/terraria-1-4-1-1-4-3-out-now-on-console-mobile.111809/

[fervent orbit]

so after evils

[sand marlin]

I'll continue digging

[lavish condor]

that sorta makes sense cuz it uses crimtane/demonite in its summon recipe

post-evil boss is when you get a large amount of that

but you can also mine it preboss

[median scaffold]

Crimtane/demonite post-EoC isn't there

[sand marlin]

Mid would be around evils but also slash Late is definitely around Skele so can't really say much without finding a post about its determined stage

[crude geode]

Ana and Levi

[sand marlin]

Vanilla

[wide river]

Vanilla wiki says this, so maybe you got it from there:

There are no prerequisite bosses that are required to be defeated in order to summon this boss. However, Deerclops' strength may warrant waiting until the player has defeated Skeletron to fight it.

In tips section

Personally I'd say it's same tier as Queen Bee but that's just me

[sand marlin]

I am finding some interesting things actually

Unrelated though

...somewhat

You can see a lot of dev comments on the terraria forums

It's not hard to search for them

Like this

[crude geode]

Same

And I think most of the cal community would agree

[olive saddle]

I do this awesome thing called forgetting she exists and never fighting her

[errant wind]

Yeah I think

[wide river]

So true

[vestal lark]

It's also the location that it's placed in Boss Checklist.

[sand marlin]

I don't use Boss Checklist

[sand marlin]

As for this, I can't entirely be sure of how well my memory will serve me about something that's more than a year long ago so I wanna say that's not why but ultimately I'm just going to keep digging until I get to something concrete

[sand marlin]

And by more than a year ago I am referring to this

[fervent orbit]

didnt boss checklist also have deerclops at post skele at one point

[errant wind]

Deerclops is post skele

On the list

[errant wind]

Why

[sand marlin]

Boss Checklist bad

[fervent orbit]

why have a mod of something you already know about

[sand marlin]

That too

[errant wind]

I mean why not

[fervent orbit]

boss checklist is most useful if ur using it on new mods

[errant wind]

You can see which boss you forgot or not

[fervent orbit]

relics

[errant wind]

I don’t think it’s a bad mod compared to stuff like Fargo mutant or magic storage

[errant wind]

You can throw it without realizing, or you can just forget about it simply

It happens that I forget deerclops or queen bee

[sand marlin]

Fargo's Mutant and Magic Storage... well magic storage does break a few things but they do not fuck with your progression entirely because of faulty code

[errant wind]

Boss checklist never made me crash

Like

Never

[sand marlin]

Good for you

[errant wind]

0 times

And since I sometimes play with calamity begginers I need it

[dense locust]

why are we arguing about bc

[sand marlin]

Idk I stopped already

[errant wind]

I don’t see why using both of these mods
Magic storage: yes you do get lost in chests but it’s so op when you can just put crafting stations in it and get everything so easily
Fargo mutant: this is almost a cheat mod where you get easy house and other stuff

[errant wind]

I’m done too

I don’t wanna continue anymore too I don’t like argue

[sand marlin]

Finally

Jungle, Queen Bee and post Skele gear are treated similarly to Deerclops drops apparently

This puts them as equals, so it is definitely not strictly post Skele

[north oracle]

[median scaffold]

[sand marlin]

Knockback can be a valid problem as such

[median scaffold]

That's a range of stuff for one boss

...but, what was the starting point of this?

[sand marlin]

Knockback consideration for shadow hands from deerclops

Well this does not make shadow hands lethal but it makes them more annoying

It is a little worse than I originally intended to display

I get that jungle gear can be pretty strong due to the jungle being quite tough in general but Queen Bee at the same tier is a bit odd

But either way that concludes this entire... thing. Idk. We've reached the end

[restive wharf]

@upbeat thistle don't leave messages that aren't suggestions in #suggestions-posting

[upbeat thistle]

Sorry I didn’t read it had to be in one message

[olive saddle]

is this like

paid content

or content behind a paywall

[upbeat thistle]

Yep

[restive wharf]

I would delete that short message from #suggestions-posting if I were you

[olive saddle]

so its behind a paywall

isnt that like illegal to post stuff behind a paywall

[grave zinc]

@drowsy plank - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Rename Thunderstorm and Sandstorm]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@fleet grotto - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Give Galactica Singularity more use before Moon Lord or make it Post Moon Lord]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[olive saddle]

oh hi

[grave zinc]

@echo leaf - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Grant Demonshade armor a stealth value if the player holds a rogue weapon]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@bronze tendon - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Add a unique sound for Draedon's Heart's Nanomachines]

It has received enough votes to be passed on to the dev server for voting! You'll be notified again when a verdict is reached.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[restive wharf]

Huh

[olive saddle]

oh jesus christ

[restive wharf]

Suggestion bot jumpscare

[fervent meadow]

what if i just download the images rn

[upbeat thistle]

Idk it’s in kickstarter and you get it just for supporting

[olive saddle]

..........so its behind a paywall

[restive wharf]

Isn't it already closed

[upbeat thistle]

Perhaps

[restive wharf]

I heard they already reached all of the goals

[upbeat thistle]

Over 2mil their goal was 25,000

We will see what they say

I may or may not be back

[olive saddle]

uh

did they release the background to the public?

[median scaffold]

What happened

[olive saddle]

someone posted a terraria board game background pledge goal and i uh

[median scaffold]

Funny

[olive saddle]

dont think thats allowed considering its behind a paywall

[median scaffold]

It shouldn't, really

[olive saddle]

unless they released it to the public then its illegal at worst and scummy at best

[median scaffold]

I thought it was AI for a second

[echo leaf]

I could have sworn I was the one that suggested the draeheart nanomachines change

[scarlet musk]

people have already asked about having a godslayer equavalent to silva wings, right?

[dense locust]

yes

its been in sprite hell for god knows how long

[fervent orbit]

theyre getting made

[frosty trellis]

Ye

We had a godslayer hoverboard submission
That got denied
And it was the saddest shit ever

[fervent orbit]

we are now getting godslayer tentacles

[wide river]

I would comment on this
However, the situation has been brought up countless times so any further comments reiterating the same sentiments would be rather pointless

[umbral gazelle]

ADD IDEAL WINGS RAHH!!!!!!

FLY, BROKEN WINGS

[scarlet musk]

oh yeah i remember that actually

[scarlet musk]

not to me

since i. don't know

which is why i asked the question

[wide river]

Basically just read from here down, it sums the situation up decently well (better than I could with an offhand comment, anyway)
#suggestions-discussion message

Information that doesn't get brought up (or is brought up in passing) there is how the whole hoverboad/jetpack idea itself was shelved, as Cosmilite's theming itself is going to be changed at some point, so the high-tech appearance would no longer work

[crude geode]

Something something the entire calamity mod will be reworked

[wide river]

Mhm
A philosophy I don't entirely agree with (I believe some things are better off in the recycle bin but that's a topic for another day), but I agree it has its merits in some ways

[echo leaf]

Ahh, gotcha. 😔

Wouldn't it be better to slap it in and call it a day? They can shelve it during the rework.

[scarlet musk]

also what about like, a super jetpack

[scarlet musk]

oh alr

[sharp helm]

I'll miss high-tech Godslayer, shit's cool

[scarlet musk]

it'll be more badass tho

[sharp helm]

Meh

[misty lichen]

why do we care about this thing that’s going to happen several years from now

if the sun explodes sometime next year it’ll look really stupid just sayign……..

[umbral gazelle]

just 3 months actually

@scarlet musk i think they buffed the droprate on hard mode its just not public yet i think iirc

[scarlet musk]

thank god

[wide river]

They increased the spawn rate, rather than the drop rate
Since if you can't get them to spawn, an increased drop rate doesn't help much

[wide river]

See: #suggestions-discussion message

[scarlet musk]

awesome

should i delete my suggestion?

[wide river]

I would say so, yes
It either gets deleted now, or locked in voting later

[scarlet musk]

sorry i forgot lol

there we go

[ripe owl]

Can't you toggle visibility to disable the shield?

[dense locust]

mhm

[ripe owl]

@scarlet musk

[scarlet musk]

not if its in vanity i thought

[dense locust]

correct

but like

just take it out of vanity

[ripe owl]

Yeah just

[scarlet musk]

i want to store it there so i can easily switch to it

[dense locust]

litterally first world problem

[scarlet musk]

it would still be nice though

[errant cradle]

That's how the vanity slots work though

[scarlet musk]

yeah so make a config option to turn it off, best of both worlds

[ripe owl]

❗ worthy suggestion tbh

[errant cradle]

You can use it to store accessories, yes, but it's meant to show the visuals of the accessory without the effects

[scarlet musk]

yeah

so then make a config option so people who want to have it showing can have it showing, and people who want to store it there can store it there without the shield effect bothering them

[ripe owl]

And there's absolutely zero reason to add a whole config just for two accessories that can be taken out of your vanity slot to solve your problem

[errant cradle]

That just feels like config bloat atp tbh

[dense locust]

would boss retiers fall under future plans / extreme effort?

[dense locust]

technnically speaking its 3 accessories and an armor set but I digress

[ripe owl]

Boss retiers as in retiering a boss? Probably the latter

[errant cradle]

Would probably fall under either of those depending on the boss tbh

Like how Rav is planned to get retiered

[ripe owl]

Boss retiers as in retiering some stuff pre-/post- other boss? With a slim margin possible but might be future plans

[umbral gazelle]

i wanna make a suggestion about flamsteed ring to be dyed with companion shampoo instead of torso slot but ibanplay left the team do i still have to contact them?

oh also it has been 3 days since i dm'd keelhaul donator and no response yet? how long until it count that the donor is inactive?

[ripe owl]

It is a dedicated item so probably still needs a permission

[ripe owl]

Wait there's a time limit?

[dense locust]

not that I know of

[misty lichen]

if the abandoned slime staff donor suddenly had a heart attack would it just be like that forever then

[fervent orbit]

mechanically, yeah

[frail fox]

Using ouija board to get donor permission

[fervent orbit]

luigi boards are so useful

[umbral gazelle]

wait, why abandoned slime staff donor specifically?

[fleet grotto]

bc they were abandoned

[boreal olive]

remove the hydrothermic mage set healing cap of 100

[timber hornet]

no suggestions update?

[echo leaf]

suggesting gfb make everything immune to the clammed debuff. because funny.

[signal onyx]

Idea on obtaining the terragrim, maybe make it a craftable using the enchanted sword since thats already a craftable weapon

[north oracle]

#suggestions-voting message

[median scaffold]

I want something like PSC, really
Such goated accessory

[echo leaf]

Oh, lucky me, someone already posted it

Should I leave it up or delete it?

[crude geode]

Considering it simply got a 👍 and has received nothing else for almost a year, it’s fine

(Suggestion discussion users dragging up suggestions from five years ago: haha I have utterly destroyed you)

[livid robin]

There used to be an enemy that drops the terragrim.

[signal onyx]

A drop works as well

[hollow verge]

i thought it was craftable im ngl
edit: after double checking it sure isnt.

[signal onyx]

I thought it was too but just the starfury and enchanted sword are

[lucid marsh]

"mini bullet hell" is kinda the point

[glass arch]

it was killed for a reason and i do not regret it

[novel belfry]

we couldve made it into a bunch of floating swords

and that would be hilarious

[glass arch]

fandom:

[median scaffold]

About the fandom...
I'll do that later

[median scaffold]

#suggestions-posting message
Bad suggestion
No MGR

[olive saddle]

What even is this sugg

[oblique otter]

idk

joke!!

[sand marlin]

@sonic gyro no joke suggestions

Please read the suggestion rules document

[sonic gyro]

give me a sec

got it

[sleek turret]

peak sugg

[stable kiln]

classic goku black

[umbral gazelle]

you silly its obviously goku black pink

[stable kiln]

What

[umbral gazelle]

you see that goku has pink hair not black so its goku black pink not goku black

[ripe owl]

Goku BTS when

[umbral gazelle]

huh?

[ripe owl]

Uuuuh no not that

[fervent orbit]

@vale cairn are you playing on master rev? if so, only the vanilla bosses (aside from ml) have been updated to have master ais

[vale cairn]

Yes i am

[sand marlin]

The current state of master regarding this topic is that the majority of cal bosses don't yet have their master mode changes which is why they feel easier than vanilla ones as those did get their master mode changes

[echo leaf]

^

Vanilla master mode bosses will never get nerfed to be in line with the other bosses, but instead Calamity bosses will get buffed to a similar level

I highly doubt any of them would get crazier than skeleprime though

[sand marlin]

Skeletron*

[ripe owl]

You wanna tell me regular Skeletron is crazier than SkelePrime?

[sand marlin]

SPrime's been overblown out of proportion, it's not as high on the troublesome bosses on the list as a few others

[sand marlin]

Yes.

[ripe owl]

Truly a calamity

[echo leaf]

I've never fought either on master death, I'm just going off of what everyone else says

[sand marlin]

Yeah then this is all you need to know

[median scaffold]

[hollow verge]

honestly yeah, after playing master+rev. i was able to solo SPrime first try. granted it was with a lot of screaming and "WHAT IS GOING ON", but. it took skeletron regular way more

[median scaffold]

If SkelePrime is so strong, imagine Ares

[echo leaf]

According to the wiki, King Slime should only have 420k, and Cultist at 330k, each on expert rev

[hollow verge]

1. nice weed number
2. yeah that's weird.

[echo leaf]

Cultist has always been pretty frail; the fight's a DPS race

[median scaffold]

...and the player wins it easily

[hollow verge]

slime just has an insane amount of bulk for like, not really a good reason.

yeah cultist doesnt get a chance to do any dps in boss rush 🧍‍♂️

[echo leaf]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

As long as someone is spamming demonshade enrage the boss rush should be a joke

[vale cairn]

Hooooow? Tell me your secrets.
It took me 226 attemps to kill it, master rev too

[hollow verge]

a lot of screaming and going "WHAT IS THIS" while frantically flying around. i honestly dont know, it wasnt coordinated.

[echo leaf]

Actually looking into it, KS isn't nearly as bulky as some of the other pre-hardmode bosses

[vale cairn]

Wow

[median scaffold]

Numbers, please?

[hollow verge]

you'd think that prikki, but KS always takes the longest for us to kill of the pre-HM bosses in the rush

because hes got nearly 1 million hp when you've got 3 people 🧍‍♂️

[echo leaf]

The only ones weaker than it are BoC and Skeletron at 272 and 225, presumably due to minions and hands

[sand marlin]

That's just multiplayer scaling

[hollow verge]

i just think the scaling is weird. brimstone elemental is also supremely tanky for no reason but it's at least HM. the first boss shouldnt be that inflated.

[echo leaf]

Multiplayer scaling is super weird

[hollow verge]

fair enough but i still stand by my sugg

worst happens, devs say no, i reckon

[echo leaf]

Good idea

[hollow verge]

side note what does BoC stand for.

[echo leaf]

Brain of Cthulu

[hollow verge]

RIGHT

i kept thinking body and i was like hm. thats not a boss

[vale cairn]

In my opinion, vanilla difficulties should be the same (vanilla AI changes and stat bloat)
While calamity difficulties should modify the AI.
I saw an suggestion saying to move the new AI changes for death mode, i completelly agree with that guy.

[median scaffold]

[echo leaf]

Oh, 'course- these bosses are only recieve the AI changes that make them crazy on master rev or master death

[median scaffold]

When I was writing my own boss, I opted to this little system:
Normal is base boss
Expert is an extra attack + some buffs to the other attacks
Rev and Death are some minor changes, making the boss more interesting and harder
Master is a small reimagination of the boss
(Master) Rev and Death are practically the same minor changes
...and FTW is just bullshit

[sand marlin]

Rev isn't nearly considered minor changes at all

[median scaffold]

Well, yeah, but I was too lazy to make huge differences and technically a permanent wet debuff was enough for the boss

[sand marlin]

Considering the master mode suggestion though, I don't think there's any point in posting anything that aims to suggest changes at a large scale for master mode. There's been a discussion here some time ago and the conclusion was that firstly master mode changes are at rather an early stage of development which means immediate reversion and rather drastic changes as suggestions are a bad idea and the goal of master mode changes is to go away from master mode just being a stat bloat mode, to make it something more interesting and in a way it is accomplishing that but this would be practically against that exact goal

@vale cairn I'd recommend you read down from here #suggestions-discussion message as that is where most of this information is gathered from. Since the discussion has already been held in place, there isn't much else to say.
Your best chances are as was mentioned later in that discussion too, that is to give it time and come back later to see how it may have changed by then

Long story short the suggestion is probably going to be answered the same way as back then, I don't think it'll make any difference

[drowsy plank]

im just going to flag it

this isn't really an actable suggestion and like you mentioned a similar one was already flagged

[sand marlin]

[drowsy plank]

like at least that one had clear points this one is just sort of "nerf them because they're hard" which doesn't really address the issues with the mode anyway

[vale cairn]

No, i said nerf them because they are harder compared to calamity bosses, they should be easier considering the stage of the game, being just "hard" its not a good reason, but being out of the curve is

Anyways i got you guys

Lets see what gonna happen in the future

[echo leaf]

The game will become more balanced in the future

[crude geode]

“Future” being anywhere from 2-10 years

[fervent orbit]

#suggestions-discussion message

crazy

almost like

thats how its done right now

[frosty trellis]

Easily lmao
SkelePrime you just get harpy wings and rum and you're set with any homing weapon and a worm melter since you only have to get dest to 75% (80% next patch)

Skele is just absurd in speed and being able to teleport during the dash attack is V E R Y unfair

You don't have your good mobility tools in phm

So skele is way harder to prepare for and avoid than skele prime

While also doing like a 1/5th of your health a hit in full warding

And despite skele being objectively unfair to even fab saying yeah this needs to be nerfed and it shouldn't be able to teleport mid dash

It's not even the most unfair fight by any means

That goes to golem

There has been
One master-death golem nohit
And it was in the elysium nohit arena
Which is not something players can even get because you can't wire the temple anymore

So you're just stuck in a box with hoik traps while still getting hit left and right from three times the fireballs and malice mode dashes

I skipped golem in my run
For

Moonlord

Because golem was just awful

[sleek turret]

Insane

[dense locust]

if golems damage wasnt low enough to comfortably tank with a good setup it would genuinely be infuriating
that being said the fact that it can be comfortably tanked makes me almost disagree with the "master golem is the most bullshit" idea, almost

[drowsy plank]

tanking it doesnt make it a good fight

[dense locust]

correct

[drowsy plank]

id argue much the opposite

[frosty trellis]

Not only that but like

It's not tankable with my standard balanced builds but warding shit

It's the opposite in fact

Especially if you're not playing Melee

I try shit out in mage FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of not tanking it

It's quite possible to tank it but it's quite possible to tank most things if you try hard enough

And just becaue you can tank the attack doesn't make unfair or bullshit attacks good

What if you can't take the hit?
Like dying to bullshit Isn't good boss design

Like the entire reason why unfair or unreactable attacks aren't good is because the fact that they can still absolutely kill you

It's not about nohitting it's about the fact that you die to shit outside of your control

If I'm going to die over and over again on a boss
I want to at least say it was a skill issue on my end
Not just there is no way to dodge this shit

[vale cairn]

We gotta remember its still a game and it needs to be enjoyable noy stressfull.
If u want to tryhard for real, dowload the infernum mod, thats why its a separate mod.
But yeah golem is not fun, if at least the dash was nerfed... not even ravager has this kind of dash, and ravager is more late game... golem should be easier than ravager logically speaking.

[echo leaf]

At least Infernum is fair in its difficulty

[sleek turret]

master is bullshit and death is bullshitmaxxing the bullshit

never had to see the day when i played the worst mode combination and see King Slime was dealing 180 contact damage (master-death)

[sand marlin]

Eh Lead armor and Iron armor are right there

[sand marlin]

MPG I'm not even disagreeing on the main point of this but man you can do a better job of explaining why it's a problem without it looking like one hell of a rant

[vale cairn]

The problem is balance, thats it, a mid hardmode boss should not be hard as DoG, and DoG has a lot of projectiles but u can dodge them, its not just random projectiles everywhere, the battle becomes tiring. Tiring man, finding a pattern is good, dodging a bullet hell is also good, but when its random, it becomes boring, hard and boring.
I dont know why you guys want yo know why its a problem everytime... just play it by yourself. The problem is, the battles are not challenging, they are tiring, for example, DoG is hard asf but its cool, skeletron prime is hard asf and its tiring because theres so many things happening that it becomes tiring and hard.
The twins for example is a boss that got reworked, but its not tiring, its just hard.
The problem is not being hard, the problem is being tiring. And then u guys ask "uhhh but why is it a problem?"
Because its a mod to enhance the game, not make it worst. Thats it, its soo simple.
And one more thing, like i said, im not the first that is complaning about the new AI, golem is harder than ravager now, skeletron prime is at the same level as anahita and leviathan, if u guys think thats skill issue, then why would i beat a more late game boss than a early one? It is supposrd yo gradually increase the difficulty. Not the oposite.
Which that said, maybe somebody gonna say "huuur dur hes yapping" or "if u are not comfortable just dont play calamity"
I say this shit because i wanna enjoy the mod, i want this mod to get better and better, thats why. It has to be enjoyable.

Ok enought for today

[gray bone]

that message directly following insanity's is kind of funny to me

also i don't really find skeleprime tiring personally

[vale cairn]

Like Thanos said "i dont even know who you are"
And figures out the guy is Wanda lololol, (as if he was a dev or a mod idk)

[frosty trellis]

Yeah sorry
I just feel
Very Strongly
About some of the design decisions with these fights

[sand marlin]

Yeah it's okay I get it I've been through the same fights... somewhat

[crude geode]

Rants are like half of this channel lmao

[sand marlin]

If that's the case then maybe that should change

[frosty trellis]

Yeah I remember both of us were doing a pt like day 1 and 2 and I think we both decided skele was just basically impossible at the time and just skipped to SG and WoF, where we found out what GOOD master design looked like in wof

[sand marlin]

[frosty trellis]

Master wof should be rev wof

Just

Flat out

That fight is just

So fucking fun

[crude geode]

?

[sand marlin]

Because rants are not really helpful in the grand scheme of things and often make people look away instead of pay any attention... do I need to say anything else?

[crude geode]

Disagree on the former, a lot of rants come from a desire to change something in the mod and can easily lead into suggestions

[sand marlin]

The 99% of suggs that were just rants and got shot dead in #suggestions-posting:

[crude geode]

Hence why they’re rants here

[echo leaf]

A rant likely isn't as well thought out or structured as a calm suggestion, so they're less effective

[sand marlin]

^

[sleek turret]

see we should write the equivalent of the communist party manifesto but instead of communism we write about boss issues and every issue in the mod

[dense locust]

wha

[sand marlin]

In the end majority of rants were things that moved from the posting channel. This is the suggestions discussion channel after all

[sleek turret]

500 page doc

[sand marlin]

The good suggestions don't get as much conversation going since they're likely to pass anyway so nobody tries to stop them or give them any advice/etc. byeah

Some do, as they may be involved with some sort of controversy but that's not as common

[drowsy plank]

graaaahhhhh too many issues in calamity must fix them all now!!!! or however the line goes

[sleek turret]

No actually it's well written

the major difference between a rant and an opinion is how much impersonal you write

[drowsy plank]

there's doc about bad accessories, there was a doc about boss design issues, there's a tierlist detailing what weapons are weak and what weapons are strong

frankly said manifesto already exists in piecemeal form

[crude geode]

There was a doc about RDR

[drowsy plank]

true

[sleek turret]

There are docs about the rabbit hole

[drowsy plank]

and everything else is just the stuff that goes in this channel

so basically there already is a calamity issues manifesto, it's just that no one has compiled it all

[sleek turret]

rage the only and the ugly

feedza document from years ago

[dense locust]

the bad acc doc is really outdated unfortunately

[vale cairn]

I agree, they should consider more the "rants". Its not a SIT test, its a game's discord, well or bad written, it should be taken into consideration, and i dont know about it, but many things they said "ohh u need to prove and justify your answer of why it is a problem"
I dont know if Calamity does, but if not, Testers should be in the team to prove if the "rants" are wrong or not

[frail fox]

The xpc one is but schmoovi made one that’s up to date

[frosty trellis]

No bc it doesn't take into account the gravistar sabatoon bug that lets you be immune to contact damage forever

[frail fox]

Wake me up when something big happens like The Evolution making you reflect all projectiles

or the camper being viable at all

[echo leaf]

camper my beloved

[hollow verge]

id be interested in seeing this doc regardless tbh. where can i find the link?

[lucid marsh]

Does teleporting count as moving for the camper

[echo leaf]

I don't think so

Besides, the effects are instant as long as your velocity is zero, to my knowledge

[olive saddle]

If only the camper wasn't shit

[lucid marsh]

You could probably do shenanigans with teleporter pads and a summoner weapon but even then it's probably not great

[lavish condor]

The only thing camper does that doesn't get rendered useless by proper preparation is 15% damage and more regen while moving lol

[echo leaf]

It's an exploration/farming accessory. But even then it's unfortunate it's bad

It's post-Golem!!

[misty lichen]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Ibx8rDopFHdzYGf1C5uDDVU-8J5UDeilniZ6f66OEI if anybody wants free suggestion bait

like xd

[crude geode]

Void of Calamity when it exists

[sand marlin]

It is a sad accessory

[novel belfry]

this accessory's sprite looks too good to have this pathetic set of effects

like seriously

[sand marlin]

It might get something when brimstone related stuff get changes later

That's my bet

[ashen warren]

Xyk and I both had separate ideas for Void of Calamity. I prefer Xyk's concept on it, and what I had in mind will probably become an entirely separate accessory when I get around to it.

Bloom Stone is also something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

[novel belfry]

mmph

[sand marlin]

[royal tapir]

Bloom Stone finally grows up

[north oracle]

Renamed to Broom stonr

Now sweeps the floor

[wide river]

Stonr

[median scaffold]

Me, when Laudanum is both the best and the worst accessory at the same time:

[echo leaf]

It's the swingiest thing in the world

[median scaffold]

Depends if you can get Red Potion or not

[echo leaf]

holy shit I didn't think of that

[median scaffold]

If so, Laudanum (and Infected Jewel+ post-Astrum Aureus) become basically your best combo for the entirety of your game

[golden sonnet]

Please make it buff herb and moss farms or something

Farming accessories are based and we should have more

[echo leaf]

It increases mob spawns

[golden sonnet]

Buffs tree harvesting, herb harvesting, and moss harvesting, bloom stone is good now. Could even like, make every axe into axe of regrowth or something

[crude geode]

It makes bosses drop 10 treasure bags but you die in one hit while they’re active

[median scaffold]

Hey, that's just better Armageddon!

[stark locust]

Ain’t to way we got a king slime nerf request before Yharim #suggestions-posting message

Idc if it’s boss rush

[drowsy plank]

im gonna be honest that sugg is pretty bad

[median scaffold]

King Slime in Master Rev+ is quite bullshit, tho

Imagine Slime Queen, but it is actually King Slime 2.0 (summons 7 soul crystals)

[glass arch]

the thing about the hp differences is

they're often times lower because of defense values

king slime has 10 defense compared to lcs 47 (27 at under 50% hp)

as well as lc having 15% dr

[royal tapir]

They all die in 5 seconds anyways
Boss Rush moment

[novel belfry]

more and more i come to understand why dominic decided to basically delete boss rush in wotg

(you can still access it, but you gotta cheat it in via a new item called terminal)

[median scaffold]

WoTG is just... wow

[novel belfry]

yeah really. you instead use terminus to go fight nameless

[grave zinc]

@marble bone - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Make iridescent excalibur not use shadowspec bars in its crafting recipe]

It has officially been implemented into the game, and will be available in the next update!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[royal tapir]

Surprise random user !!!!!

Saw this while looking for something else

[grave zinc]

@olive saddle - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Rework or Remove Tesla Potion]

It has officially been implemented into the game, and will be available in the next update!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[drowsy plank]

holy shit

[royal tapir]

Tesla Potion accessory rework real in 5

[golden sonnet]

????????

yoooo

massive

[royal tapir]

Speaking of

[grave zinc]

@runic stone - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Reduce the opacity of the tesla potion]

It has been decided that your suggestion can neither be passed nor denied; either the devs have already made plans that conflict with it, or they have decided to implement an altered version.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[golden sonnet]

when can calcium and bounding be merged

[royal tapir]

You too
(Aura has reduced opacity if visibility is disabled)

[royal tapir]

When John Calamity makes it so

[novel belfry]

WHAT.

wait is it reworked or is it dying

[fervent orbit]

reworked to acc

[fervent orbit]

_ _

[echo leaf]

You can't just tell me tesla's getting reworked and not elaborate

[dense locust]

why does calcium even exist
wasnt it originally added so that defiled players had easy fall damage immunity

[echo leaf]

merging calcium and bounding is a good idea

[royal tapir]

You should put it in suggestion posting

[dense locust]

so it can get beaten out by calamity kites 2 the hit sequel

[echo leaf]

If Raesh doesn't do it tonight I'll do it

[wide river]

I did make a suggestion about this about a year ago
It was neither denied nor accepted... which is to say, there's no real problems with suggesting it again

[echo leaf]

nah i'm stealing the idea.

i'm doing it now

[wide river]

Here's my take on it, if it helps #suggestions-voting message

[echo leaf]

Ah, mmmm

clamity makes fledgling wings craftable too

[golden sonnet]

it;s been done before

[echo leaf]

so you don't even need to go underground to merge 'em

[wide river]

Lucky Horseshoe is back in the sky too

[errant cradle]

At this point I feel like they exist solely cause they're one of the few things that give Ancient Bone Dust some identity

[echo leaf]

remove ancient bone dust

or give it a building block?

[novel belfry]

wat

[errant cradle]

The most you'd have to do is give Armor Polish a new recipe so honestly it's very possible

[echo leaf]

anti-shit mob accessory number five WOOHOO

[errant cradle]

Like it would barely change anything

[echo leaf]

Unironically might be a decent suggestion

[royal tapir]

Suggestion mentions Lucky Horseshoe twice
Otherwise cool

[echo leaf]

Well, it's because you can get the lucky horseshoe underground OR in the clouds
But I get your point

[oblique otter]

You know it's a suggestion when it starts with a fairy tale

[olive saddle]

FUCKIN AWESOME

[errant cradle]

wh

sink?

[wide river]

Like a material sink

Not the furniture sink

[errant cradle]

oh okay

[echo leaf]

A sink of ancient bone dust

[errant cradle]

that had me worried there for a second lmao

[echo leaf]

GIVE ME. SINK MADE OF DUST

[flint notch]

So peak

[echo leaf]

It's important because it's a water source but it's affected by gravity

[flint notch]

Ancient bone dust sink

[hollow verge]

gonna be honest i also thought it was the furniture until i read it twice.

[echo leaf]

i'd be down for the furniture

[flint notch]

I mean that would be

Inherently

A material sink

[wide river]

A sink in every definition of the word

[flint notch]

Ancient bone dust tiles

Ancient bone dust furniture

[wide river]

Get Calvan on it

[echo leaf]

I'd be SUPER hyped for an ancient bone building set

[dapper apex]

Damn Prikki is the strongest suggestion posting warrior

[ashen warren]

Taking this suggestion literally. Ancient Bone Dust Sink, coming right up.

[coral carbon]

Man
This really hypes me up for the next #changelogs post

[lucid marsh]

Fun fact: a Minecraft April fools update had a copper sink that is a literal sink like that

[olive saddle]

Call them a gun they way they keep shootin out bangers

[olive saddle]

Question about this btw. I assume Tesla potion as an accessory is rebalanced in some way to make it stronger/weaker so it can be worth an accessory slot, though the ability to invalidate boss minions is probably fine enough

[sand marlin]

@misty lichen

[sand marlin]

Bundle used to not have horseshoe so that may have been another reason

And like, Bundle is super used

[echo leaf]

[royal tapir]

The only changes in functionality are that the aura inflicts and it reduces the duration of Static Discharge instead of Electrified

[umbral gazelle]

Ancient Bone Dust Sink
Recipe
50,000 Ancient Bone Dusts

[echo leaf]

Item description:
"Here's your fucking sink, stop asking"

[drowsy plank]

[bold wave]

Retier Recon Scope

Instant upgrades are seen as undesireable since they make their downgrades inferior from the moment they're available. Calamity already retiers the Fire Gauntlet so as to not make it an instant upgrade to the Mechanical Glove, like it is in vanilla.

The same treatment should be given to the Recon Scope as well. It's strictly better than its downgrades, and is available as soon as they are, outclassing them. The Recon Scope should be retiered, perhaps by adding a material such as Luminite to its recipe, though any tier beyond its current one would be sufficient.

Is this alright?

[median scaffold]

Hm

I think yeah, that's mostly fine

[golden sonnet]

you could possibly include unnerfing sniper scope in the suggestion

as sniper scope is nerfed to be literally worse than its materials because recon scope stacks with it

where if recon scope was retiered that would be less of an issue

[bold wave]

Hm

If I were to decide

I'd buff both but make them not stack

But given that probably won't happen, this way it feels better imo

Cuz sniper to recon would barely be an upgrade in that case

I'm sure most players can't even tell the difference

[hollow verge]

luminite seems a bit late-game for an accessory like that. maybe instead it should use vortex fragments? keep it pre-ML to match fire gauntlet and stuff

[bold wave]

Fair enough

[hollow verge]

ranger in calamity is already sort of weak (at least in my playthroughs and the people i personally have talked to)

the only other thing i could think is making rifle scope itself available earlier, to parallel when you can pick up the mech gauntlet. but that's probably a lot harder than simply tacking on a new item to a recipe

[north oracle]

(ranger isn't especially weak unless you're comparing it to summoner, when every class is weak)

[echo leaf]

[frosty trellis]

Ye
In terms of power level ranger is flat in the middle
It's currently:
Summoner
Rogue
Ranger
Melee
Mage

From strongest overall to weakest overall

Not saying mage is bad it just doens't have the same level of accessories or customization to allow it to powerspike

[novel belfry]

huh

to be fair, it seems only rogue has a large variety of accessories to have differing playstyles

[echo leaf]

TRUE MELEE

True melee on TOP

[misty lichen]

no rogue accessories change playstyle btw

[glass arch]

compared to the other classes it sucks ass

[misty lichen]

👍

[glass arch]

in all reality its the most balanced one out of all of them

o7 traitorous biofusillade thou shalt not be missed

[frosty trellis]

It doesn't change your playstyle
It just causes extreme variance
To where one accessory can vary a killtime by like a minute

Gotta love good ol;

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/662119484550676518/1147382183661682779/caption.gif

[harsh echo]

Love that gif

[median scaffold]

...if only whips or sentries were a thing
If only bows, repeaters and other arrow-based weapons were a thing
If only melee had more melee
If only mage... actually got any other accessories and not mana flower 2.0 every time

[golden sonnet]

just realized now I technically have the image as the walls crafting the blocks, rather than the other way around

but idk if I want to fix it considering the image is only included as an excuse to shitpost

[median scaffold]

Quick question, do Spiky Balls drop through platforms?

[sleek turret]

No

[median scaffold]

Thanks

[high nest]

I wake up every day and celestial cuffs are still squandering the potential of a mana regeneration band upgrade path

[golden sonnet]

I think devs have discussed some ideas for it, probably just not top priority

I know @bright crag was theorycrafting some ideas for them for awhile

idk if any of it is public or finalized tho

[median scaffold]

If the walls can craft blocks, the other way recipe exists

Btw, I will probably go to sleep for the next... 8 hours, I think, so won't be answering as much
Sorry in advance, I'll check the messages whenever I wake up

[bright crag]

The ideas are in really early stages

Summoner and probably Rogue reworks will cone before a Mage rework, as well

[high nest]

😔

mana flower my beloathed

[echo leaf]

I did a mage run and the second I stopped using the mana flower line I started having fun

[high nest]

mana flower is a false god, a blight. mana flower is not the way. mana flower will chain you to samsara. do not believe mana flower's lies.

[hollow verge]

why is mana flower and its lines bad? /genq

[high nest]

(because I dont like it)

I do not have a more thoughtful answer than this handy, sorry

[hollow verge]

fair enough

[tired kettle]

sea prism brick walls would be so slayful tbh

[golden sonnet]

That's just waiting for a sprite submission, as are most missing blocks. The only reason I made a suggestion for this rather than going to the art server, is because pyre mantle walls already exist, they just can't be obtained

[lucid marsh]

Mana flower takes the entire mana mechanic and makes it not matter

Well, kind of. It's replaced with a sort of damage efficiency mechanic

In terms of getting better damage by chugging fewer potions

[median scaffold]

[echo leaf]

Mana Flower turns Mage into Ranger But Again

It takes the one interesting mechanic of the class, mana, and chucks it out the window

[median scaffold]

And Chaos stone
To be fair, it's much more interesting and unique compared to the entier mana flower line

[lucid marsh]

I am of the opinion that mana flower should either not have upgrades, or other mana restoration methods should have accessories that are just as good

[median scaffold]

Imagine summoner, but you can have infinite summons with some damage penalty

[echo leaf]

Summoner but with free support summons? Wow, almost like a summon limit is important

[median scaffold]

We have 4 ranger with somewhat unique gimmicks

[lucid marsh]

Summoner active items should only be able to do two things:
Eliminate weak but fast close quarters nuisance enemies that summons have a hard time hitting, and buff the abilities of summons

For this reason, whips are the best design for a summon support item type

[echo leaf]

Whips are fantastic design, just a tad overtuned

[lucid marsh]

Agree

[median scaffold]

I agree with you, but actually balancing out those are a whole another nightmare

[echo leaf]

Whip stacking is insane at improving damage output, but I'm playing Eternity mode rn where whip stacking is outright removed and suddenly Summoner is a lot less enjoyable

[median scaffold]

Remember, summoner has 3 types of weapons + he can use other class weapons just as much, if not more

[lucid marsh]

Summoner in principle should not benefit significantly from other class weapons by virtue of not having the support accessories to make them good, but the game is not designed to make this work

But then again, if you're doing that. Are you really playing summoner?

[median scaffold]

[lucid marsh]

(no)

[echo leaf]

Summoner armor also doesn't grant crits

[median scaffold]

I love summoner hybrids, tho

[echo leaf]

YEAH

[lucid marsh]

Summoner hybrid is great when you're primarily not summoner

[median scaffold]

Doesn't mean I can't use other support weapons to make my life easier

[high nest]

hybrids in general are good fun these days, now that we have 3 equip loadouts

[median scaffold]

I'm quite sad that Calamity pretty much kills multiclassing for most of the game
At least, without using separate loadouts a lot

[lucid marsh]

Anyways, the other solution to both of these is to make the primary source of damage for the summoner class come from hitting an enemy with a whip causing your summon to deal way more damage

[echo leaf]

I'd be down to keep whips the way they are and just generally nerf summons

[lucid marsh]

Make the damage bonus disappear if you're not holding a whip, and you have a perfectly balanced class

[echo leaf]

But I'm sure the devs can cook something both more interesting than that and more fun than I can come up with

[median scaffold]

...please, don't

[lucid marsh]

Why?

[echo leaf]

Don't kill eye of magnus pls 🥺

[lucid marsh]

It doesn't have to disappear immediately

[median scaffold]

At least, let the bonus stay if you use another whip and not another weapon

[lucid marsh]

Just after a moment

[lucid marsh]

No whip stacking, bad. Cap it to 3 whips at most

[median scaffold]

Isn't that how whips work now, tho?

[echo leaf]

That's how it is right now

[median scaffold]

People don't do more than 3 anyway, really

[echo leaf]

clamity limits whip stacking to 3

[lucid marsh]

It's similar, but whips also just do a stupid amount of damage on their own without summons at all

If I remember correctly

[median scaffold]

I would say depends on the combination of the whips

[echo leaf]

They are quite strong

[lucid marsh]

Kaleidescope is viable against scal

[north oracle]

kalei alone is a solid contribution before even considering summons

[median scaffold]

[north oracle]

(it can't reach her for long enough, range is the killer for exos/scal)

[median scaffold]

Wait, is it that good as a weapon itself?

[lucid marsh]

You can literally beat most parts of scal as a summoner and your pre moon lord whip will do a significant amount of the damage

Yes

[north oracle]

yes
25% contrib or so before the tag

[echo leaf]

I noticed about 15%

[median scaffold]

[echo leaf]

But even if it is 15% that's still incredible for a silly little toy post-Golem

[median scaffold]

Idk what do you mean by the contribution
Sorry for that, too eepy

[north oracle]

it drops down to 2/3% by endgame, but still good timesaves from the tag

[north oracle]

% of the total damage done

[median scaffold]

Like, by the whip itself (no crit chance involving) or smth else?

[echo leaf]

The whip itself, yeah

[lucid marsh]

Whips need to be reworked. Their damage as an independent weapon should drop off with progression, not scale to be higher than the summons

[echo leaf]

Kaleidoscope has a base damage of 180 (big number!!!!!!!!!!!)

[north oracle]

yes
before the damage tag and crit tag are considered, it contributes about a quarter of the dps

[lucid marsh]

They should however make the summons do basically the amount of damage that the whip would have done itself currently

[north oracle]

(ontier)

[echo leaf]

No, I think that whips are fine as is, it's just Kaleidoscope is overtuned

[lucid marsh]

Other whips are like this too. You can swap kaleidescope for the other one and it's almost as good

[median scaffold]

It really is

[median scaffold]

...which one and what boss?

[lucid marsh]

The hard mode dungeon one is like, massive base damage

[echo leaf]

Morning Star

[lucid marsh]

All the hard mode ones pretty much I think?

[north oracle]

a lot of other whips are the same
stuff like dark harvest and cool whip are fine, even firecracker post nerfs isn't too bad

[echo leaf]

Morning Star isn't too terribly far behind Kaleidoscope in base damage

[north oracle]

snapthorn, kalei, and morning star are the big 3

the rest just exist and are good

[median scaffold]

Snapthorn

[north oracle]

snapthorn my beloved

[echo leaf]

Snapthorn is crazy

[high nest]

I don't really like the concept of whip stacking, it feels a bit out of place that they stack to me

[median scaffold]

Could we just remove the tag damage and maybe nerf the damage little?

[echo leaf]

Without whip stacking, summoner is way less fun, so I'd prefer it be kept

[median scaffold]

Someone's next word is: "Subjective"

[echo leaf]

Post-ML there'd be nothing for summoner to do, so there'd have to be something there so they have toys to play with beyond Eye of Magnus and Yanmei's Knife and stuff

[median scaffold]

But agree. Whip stacking pretty much made summoner a fun and actually interesting class in eyes of many, myself included

[median scaffold]

...uhh, what are you talking about here, exactly?

It is just weird, I didn't say anything about post-ml

[echo leaf]

If Kaleidoscope had no tag and less damage, then at about that point in the game, its damage output is too poor to justify wasting the braincells to whip things

Summoners would then go to find other weapons to get debuff support from

[high nest]

post moonlord whips just havent come because there arent calamity whips yet

thats not like

a permanent feature or anything

[echo leaf]

i think I heard somewhere that Terraria 1.4.5 is gonna add a stardust whip

[median scaffold]

I was talking about snapthorn

[echo leaf]

OH

lizard brain

I'm so sorry

[median scaffold]

Nah, it's nothing

[echo leaf]

but snapthorn definitely deserves some nerf

[median scaffold]

Snapthorn, as well as both Kaleidoscope and Morning Star, are quite heavily overturned

[echo leaf]

What if it had a range penalty?

It stays as strong as it is but it was as stubby as the leather whip

[median scaffold]

Leather whip.

Actually, if it was the only whip with tag damage pre-skeletron, it would be useful

[north oracle]

whip balance dev approaches

[ashen warren]

Whip stacking will not be kept. It is not reasonable to properly balance around.

[high nest]

I am vindicated

[median scaffold]

Fair enough

[echo leaf]

Valid??? I mean, Yeah? I suppose?? Reasonable? Still sadge about it

it feels like a bug

[ashen warren]

I'm already suffering with whips, please don't make me suffer more by trying to balance using 5 of them at a time.

[median scaffold]

Please, Angel, can we have more sentry-based content whenever the overhaul will come out?

[echo leaf]

valid concern

I was about to mention the agony of whip stacking for experienced and new players

Somehow whips and summons need to be in this harmony where new players who don't whip stack are given a comparable experience to other classes, but experienced ones who do need whip stacking to be impactful enough to care but somehow simultaneously not blow everything else out of the water

Putting it like that makes it sound impossible, huh

[north oracle]

i will continue reposting about my thoughts for cal summoner armor changes
OOA becomes fully multiclass focused, along with a couple of other sets
Flinx, fathom swarmer, tarragon (or the rework), and a few more become sentry focused

[median scaffold]

zz indeed

[high nest]

oh more multiclass support?

[ashen warren]

There is also the fact that Calamity whips will focus more on unique effects (Cool Whip, Dark Harvest) rather than straight boosts.

Unique effects make each individual whip more impactful as well as being much easier to balance.

[high nest]

real shit?

[north oracle]

no this is just what i want

i'm not a dev

[echo leaf]

THIS is cool

[high nest]

rip

[north oracle]

i can't make angel do that

-#

[echo leaf]

Kinda like the Catalyst whips, but official? And less janky?

[high nest]

cant believe i was lied to on the internet

[echo leaf]

I'm so down

[ashen warren]

Fathom Swarmer will be focused around temporary minions that help you in battle.

[median scaffold]

OOA becoming fully multiclass and not sentry-based feels weird consider how you obtain them
But making some of the lesser used armor into sentry ones could make the trick, won't argue

[echo leaf]

Ooh, speaking of- will there be whips that are exclusively focused on damage?

I'm so down for a fathom swarmer rework

[north oracle]

yeh, that's the thing i think
but they're already on this weird bridge of trying to be both while also not being anywhere near spread out across cal progression

[echo leaf]

I used it a while ago in my underwater arena and concluded that above water it's Tiki but worse, and below the water it's Mollusk armor but if it was post-levi

It'd be neat if the OOA is reworked to fit Calamity progression, but I doubt that'll happen

[north oracle]

idk i like my idea because i came up with it :trollage:
yea the concept for fathom swarmer is good, i just want that to happen

[echo leaf]

Maybe there could be a 'spiritual' T4 OOA set that uses the T3 set as a crafting component

[north oracle]

new post DoG summoner set

[echo leaf]

another?

[median scaffold]

Fearmonger, but sentry

[north oracle]

honestly tarragon (or the rework) might not be the worst spot
there's still Stardust -> Bloodflare

[ashen warren]

Weird, I specifically made sure the stats were better than Tiki, even before counting the summon damage boost in water.

[echo leaf]

I was taking into account that Tiki had the leaf wings which grant some crazy boosts

[ashen warren]

Fathom Swarmer:
Full stats: 41 defense, 6% damage reduction. +4 minions, 36% summon damage. 20% summon damage, 40% movement speed, 10 defense, 2.5hp/s while in water.

Tiki Armor:
Full stats: 35 defense. +4 minions, 30% summon damage, +30% whip range.

Spooky Armor:
Full Stats: 30 defense. +4 minions, 58% summon damage (WHY VANILLA), 20% movement speed.

[echo leaf]

Underwater it's absolutely a juggernaut

[north oracle]

spooky is an armor set

[high nest]

Water arenas are always fun, aquatic heart my beloved

[echo leaf]

^^^^^^^^^^^

fighting EoC in the sunken sea with Victide was a blast

[north oracle]

i do dislike on principle 3 competing post plant (i do not care about post-golem moons)

[echo leaf]

yeah, Fathom Swarmer was doomed from the start since it has to compete with Spooky

[median scaffold]

I think the problem comes down to how little armors are there, only being 8 sets, and when you get them. Once post-1 mech and once post-golem, which is fine in Vanilla, but too short in Calamtiy
Maybe making T3 armors be a post-ml thing could work, but that's just an idea more than anything

[echo leaf]

But I love me my 51 defense, 56% damage and 5 regen on summoner

[north oracle]

speaking of post golem moons
you can balance items post golem without talking about how they are post golem. there are 3 competing sets at this tier, one is just harder to get and stronger

[echo leaf]

I don't know if T3 armors would survive post-ML
I haven't heard much discussion about the shinobi infiltrator and dark artist sets at all

Red Riding set only really works if you're spamming the sentry (where it works great)

[north oracle]

shinobi is valhalla knight but whips get improved and you're less tanky

[echo leaf]

and valhalla knight is the only one that can really last

[median scaffold]

With buffs, ofc
...but Valhalla. Don't buff Valhalla, for the most part

[echo leaf]

Valhalla Knight can stay as is

[north oracle]

if i'd done any actual testing i think it might actually be stronger

[north oracle]

only if sentries get firmly spiked back into the trash

[median scaffold]

Probably it is

[echo leaf]

VK could and probably would get melee buffs

mmm, what if it had a special effect where it removed the summon damage penalty but only for sentries?

[median scaffold]

I had an idea of making shinobi OOA armor into a rogue-hybrid one, to make Valhalla both unique and give rogue some love

[echo leaf]

oooh, good idea

Monk/Shinobi deserve it

[ashen warren]

There was a short time in the development builds where OOA armors did not trigger the summon penalty.

Plaguebringer Goliath: Xeno Staff
Spooky Armor/Dark Harvest: 2:08 (30% whip)
Red Riding Hood/Flak Kraken: 1:40 (56% flak)

That didn't last long.

[north oracle]

i think i mentioned this at somepoint, it's a good idea i think
cal has 4 other classes, there's 4 OOA sets

[echo leaf]

Yikes.

[echo leaf]

Neat insight, though!

[median scaffold]

...yeah, fair enough

[echo leaf]

balancing sounds like a nightmare

[median scaffold]

It is, really

[north oracle]

summoner penalty exists for a reason :plumg:
summoner penalty was 50% for a reason

[ashen warren]

I've considered this for a long while but never actually brought it up to other developers. Maybe when my rebalancing gets around to it I'll bring it up, but as of right now it's a definite no.

[echo leaf]

Lesson learned

[median scaffold]

I wanted to make a suggestion, but opted to wait since summoner is in a limbo state until SSO comes out

[glass arch]

depends on the class and tier

[north oracle]

yeah, everything about summoner is devplans conflicts atp

[median scaffold]

I'll wait for any news for that. I think this idea is interesting enough to at least give it a shot once or twice, just to see how crazy it can be

[echo leaf]

I'd adore a summoner/rogue set

[glass arch]

sometimes you balance classes other times you test rogue for 4 hours straight because who knows maybe moonstone crown is good on this when paired with gor and armor pen and fuckshitmcbitchass

[median scaffold]

There's one

[echo leaf]

👁️ 👁️

[median scaffold]

The forbidden has a helmet piece making it a summoner rogue hybrid

[echo leaf]

OH YEAH

[median scaffold]

Can't say for sure how good it is, I'll try it whenever we could actually get into hardmode

[echo leaf]

Forbidden Circlet

[median scaffold]

Yes, the crabbar helmet (somewhat literally)

[echo leaf]

crab <3

[novel belfry]

the one thing i want it to change is uh

the fact it gets rid of your hair when worn, making it look really really weird

[tardy geyser]

Tbh remove bone dust and calcium pot, and give bounding fall damage immunity

[echo leaf]

GOOD IDEA

[tardy geyser]

Oh youre suggestion says that mb, didnt read the whole thing lo

We should kill trapper bulb next

[echo leaf]

good to know that more people are on the same wavelength

[glass arch]

please dont give potions accessory effects actually

[lucid marsh]

Aren't there like 5 different calamity jungle materials?

Or at least 3

And then another 3+ from vanilla

[golden sonnet]

correct

[lucid marsh]

That sounds

Mega stupid

[echo leaf]

stingers, vines, jungle spores, then there are trapper bulbs and planty mush?

[bold wave]

Beetle juice

Oh wait did that get axed?

[echo leaf]

Yeah, I don't recognize it

[golden sonnet]

beetle juice and one of the bulbs died, but murky paste is still pretty jungle, and planty mush is more nature than jungle

[bold wave]

I think planty mush is an abyss material

[echo leaf]

MURKY PASTE

[fleet grotto]

yeah planty mush is abyssal

[echo leaf]

murky paste, I was getting it mixed

it's that green sludge with spikes or thorns inside

[lucid marsh]

Murky paste is also a mostly jungle material. I think you can technically get it another way but practically no

There are 6. It's stupid. Should just remove all the ones from calamity, unless you really need something hard mode specific

I'm going to make a suggestion about this

[golden sonnet]

I got one passed a while ago, but that was when beetle juice still existed

#suggestions-voting message

For reference if it helps with yours

[lucid marsh]

Ok so that's the exact same suggestion but they implemented it by only removing beetle juice and not the other items.

[novel belfry]

actually

lemme repost my sugg, but with an image to show what i mean

[golden sonnet]

I mean, I don't think they all need to be gone to be fair

I dislike murky paste, but I think trapped bulbs are fine and should stay

[lucid marsh]

Why?

I do not see any purpose that they fill which could not be accomplished with a different item

Such as:
Planty mush for late hardmode
Bezoar, mana flower, or jungle spores plus essence of sunlight

[sand marlin]

I keep forgetting Crush Depth has that effect

[gray bone]

i like this idea a lot

[sleek turret]

peak sugg

[grave zinc]

@echo leaf - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Remove Ancient Bone Dust, or introduce an Ancient Bone Dust sink]

It has been decided that your suggestion can neither be passed nor denied; either the devs have already made plans that conflict with it, or they have decided to implement an altered version.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[bright crag]

Either Ancient Bone Dust or Demonic Bone Ash will be killed - either way, only one bone dust material will remain, and it will probably get more uses

[cloud obsidian]

Sink

[hollow verge]

does demon ash even have a use beyond zerg potions

[gray bone]

slagsplitter pauldron

demon conch

[echo leaf]

👍

bone dust sink

[drowsy plank]

@polar mica no joke suggestions

[fleet grotto]

hot dog 😱

[drowsy plank]

also to address some previous suggestions; in pretty sure calamity is trying to move away from using life fruit as a material, and im also pretty sure that a lot of debuffs have had their secondary effects removed recently, so im not sure how well those suggestions will fare

[polar mica]

sorry 😅

[drowsy plank]

ur fine

better than most joke suggestions; people usually fight tooth and nail after they get flagged, so it's nice someone just... listened for once

[hollow verge]

3 whole uses......... wow........

[gray bone]

it has a few more but yeah it isn't great

[misty lichen]

plague got its darkness removed and damage reduction nerfed

that’s it

[high nest]

crush depth got its awful enemy defense gimmick removed

debuffs dont need to be fancier

just functional

[echo leaf]

I see debuffs as a fancy way of saying “STOP WITH THE HEALTH REGEN”

“FUCK DEFENSE”

[drowsy plank]

burning blood got stuff removed too didnt it?

oh yeah crush depth too

[misty lichen]

sure but

i think you can see why

[drowsy plank]

i dont disagree that it should've been removed

im just saying i dont think they're going to be adding many secondary effects when even the less extreme ones have also been killed

[high nest]

As a player I couldn't be happier with the simplification of crush depth and introduction of riptide as a prehardmode version

more complexity isnt always better

[misty lichen]

that’s completely different

the on player version of crush depth has never been changed

[sand marlin]

I don't think the removal of those secondary effects dictates whether or not secondary effects can be good. Those secondary effects were just not handled well