suggestions-discussion

[odd cradle]

Yes, but even if people rally behind it, the devs have the final say

[sand marlin]

If it is not forwarded to the devs for other reasons such as weak or harmful reasoning then it won't reach the devs obviously

[odd cradle]

It's literally why the bot exists to send them

[sand marlin]

And?

How will devs know this suggestion is a thing if it does not reach them

This is why suggestions go through this process

[short stream]

Suggestion bot

[odd cradle]

So who are you trying to convince here then

[sand marlin]

I'm gonna stop arguing with you because you are saying stupid things now actually have been for a while

Likle

Read the rules?

[odd cradle]

Cool, thanks for the personal attack 👍

[sand marlin]

Read the suggestion doc?

[sand marlin]

Stop attacking me yourself with stupid questions thanks

[short stream]

This sounds like Twitter

[odd cradle]

Look, I'll make myself as clear as possible since you seem finally content with absconding from this discussion even if it's at the cost of insulting my intelligence (love that by the way, very respectful person you are)
Suggestions are suggestions and one person is making them. Suggestions are some fact mostly molded by opinion, and the process has been made so that it can get filtered out by either larger community opinion first or dev final say second

If the suggestion hits voting and no one cares, what significance will this discussion even have?

If it gets passed to the devs and they say no, what significance will this discussion even have?

If the opposite is true, how can you confirm it was even because you mentioned any issues with balancing the suggestion may or may not have? This is a live chat in a Discord server, the chances of your opinion even being seen by the larger community or any dev for that matter is not particularly likely unless you continually echo it

[fervent orbit]

people can read this chat to form an opinion on whether or not they should vote on the suggestion

[odd cradle]

Yes, but I highly doubt the majority do

[short stream]

Clearly insanity isn’t voting for this

[odd cradle]

Especially since this chat is fairly active and so if they wanted to see an opinion on a suggestion they may have to scroll upwards a varying ways

[fervent orbit]

people also include the devs

[odd cradle]

Yes, but everything about the process gives off the idea that devs only treat community sway as a metric for how supported the idea is or not

Ultimately they'll come to their own conclusions as to why something is/isn't balanced

It's why the voting system exists in the first place

[small timber]

the tldr for me is imo:

personally I always try to make my suggestion as fair as I can, and try to include considerations of others, which is why I will always argue if there are people who come out with a counterargument when I diasgreed (even though ultimately I can just ignore and let it go into voting), or alternatively if I am convinced I will make adjustment to my suggestion, but yes there is not really any reason to go into a heated argument

but yeah, ultimately the devs gives the yes or no (assuming it got enough votes)

[sand marlin]

For the record I don't believe the argument was heated between me and xpc until the other two came in and constantly assured him because as you would guess
One versus three is not fun

[odd cradle]

I get that and I apologize but I also feel like I have the right to throw in my two cents in a public discord server

Otherwise you should just take it to DMs

[sand marlin]

Why would I take a discussion about suggestion in the suggestion discussion channel to DMs?

[odd cradle]

Fair enough

[short stream]

To avoid more people joining in the conversation

[odd cradle]

I'm just saying I feel like there is nothing that can be done about that sorta three on one issue because that's literally just how Discord is designed

[ripe owl]

That's the nature of the public servers: more and more people will be joining the active conversations

[odd cradle]

That ^

[sand marlin]

You can join it just fine
Whether or not you handle it well depends on you

[small timber]

tldr adrenaline nerf suggestion will happen the moment I suggest it for the 45™ time (0 copium)

[ripe owl]

Anyway I ask you guys to stop this conversation, as it's both off-topic and going nowhere

[sand marlin]

And constantly assuring xpc at the same time as we are speaking with no intervals is not the way to do it

[ripe owl]

And discuss some suggestion matters

[sand marlin]

[short stream]

Good idea

[odd cradle]

[small timber]

like suggesting to make it so DPS debuff (to player) deal less dps but cancel regen so that it punish tank build more instead of completely fucking over glass cannon while doing not really anything to tank build (who already took less damage)

[short stream]

So I played some Calamity on Master Death mode with my friend yesterday. Shadow Jousting Lance is completely broken for damage

[small timber]

speaking of lance isnt the skull goat mount from wof not nerfed yet

[ripe owl]

It isn't

[short stream]

I don’t know

[small timber]

while unicorn get crippled

[ripe owl]

Yeah

Unicorn is ass compared to goat

[short stream]

If they get rid of Goat’s double jump…

[odd cradle]

Yeah lances are weird to balance, but I would've thought they'd plateaued the damage scaling or something
But me and friends looked at how Calamity scales lance damage and it actually seems like it scales faster in Calamity???

[short stream]

Uh oh

[odd cradle]

Like I get getting a ton of speed requires decent setup and I appreciate rewarding that but idk

[short stream]

My friend shredded through lunatic cultist in under 8 seconds just by bouncing on jellybean

[small timber]

iirc they make it so the "top" damage you can get from lance lower, but make it so it is easier to reach top damage

but yes MP balance is wacky in general, if not mistaken most bosses is just way too squishy as player number increase

[odd cradle]

Here's the formula change, for anyone curious. Red line is calamity's rebalance of lances

[short stream]

Poor Astrum Deus…

[fervent orbit]

what is unicorns changes I LOVE VANILLA CHANGES PAGE IT SO UP TO DATE

[odd cradle]

Just think it's nice to have it visualized

[short stream]

That’s scary

[odd cradle]

It's somethin'!

[gaunt needle]

that seems so wrong

[short stream]

How would they even nerf lance though? I don’t want to post a suggestion because I don’t know what they’d do

[odd cradle]

Yeah that's my thought too

[short stream]

I hate shadow jousting lance

[odd cradle]

I also don't know if I want to plateau the damage either

[ripe owl]

If you have nothing on your mind then it's better to not suggest anything

[odd cradle]

Yeah.

[short stream]

Maybe raise the amount of speed you need for solid damage?

But keep the damage cap the same?

I just want it to

[small timber]

or finally knife the slime mounts

also works

[short stream]

Jellybean was not the problem

[odd cradle]

Ehh, that'd involve nerfing the vertical speed of slime mounts or something which I do not like the idea of

Especially since for some bossfight cases you want that verticality

[short stream]

My friend just flew by bosses and did ludicrous damage

I thought it was a bad weapon too

[gaunt needle]

honestly reverting lances to vanilla stats (or at least somewhere closer to them) would be a good start

[short stream]

He also is the guy that made me aware of pre-nerf Sky Stabber

[small timber]

knife the slimes regardless

[short stream]

How?

[small timber]

but yeah slime mount had always been semi overpowered at what it does, just people look at flying mount (or horse mount) much more since they can singlehandedly solve all movement needs

[short stream]

If its only purpose gets butchered, why use them?

[sand marlin]

You can use Broom as mount and put Pogo on hotbar so you can use both

[gaunt needle]

why not just use portal gun at that point

[sand marlin]

Or vice versa

[sand marlin]

Portal gun only increases max fall speed last I recall

Fastfall mounts multiply the momentum as well

[small timber]

and because of the nerf you start falling slower

[unique reef]

so uh, I have an idea for Entropy Vigil rework since it's ancient

[olive saddle]

Specific item reworks are disallowed i believe

[small timber]

just for a headsup:

chances are the rework idea will be very specific, and suggestions (in general), one of the restriction is to not be overly specific; especially an item rework idea

and also I am not 100% sure, but entrophy vigil is one of the scal exhumed item; I think there was rework plan for all original item of scal exhumed item due to their lore relevance?

[unique reef]

sadge

[olive saddle]

That too

[small timber]

especially since calclone is supposed to not be an eye, so its rework likely will be left until that happen

[unique reef]

alright

I hope it's really good

because in its current state it's pretty meh

[small timber]

time to rework it into pirate staff 3.0

[olive saddle]

God pLEASE NOT PIRATE STAFF

[unique reef]

what's wrong with pirate staff

[olive saddle]

Grounded minion

[small timber]

it is pinnacle of summoner design

[unique reef]

I use AoMM version

which is S tier

[olive saddle]

I think its dps is stupid high but its not able to hit 90% of the bosses

[olive saddle]

Aomm user based

🤝

[unique reef]

plus it gives variety bonus

so the weapon is really really good

[ripe owl]

What the hell is AoMM 🗣️

[olive saddle]

Amulet of many minions

Summoner addon thing

[unique reef]

Amulet of Many Minions, summoner content/rebalance mod

[olive saddle]

Not calamity or a suggestion so ill smite myself rq

[unique reef]

it'd be cool to see calamity compat with AoMM ngl

since the API was released, any mod can do it now

[odd cradle]

I actually wonder...

[tender crater]

Every grounded minion cal has designed so far has not exactly been...it

so let's not add more fuel to the fire lol

[frail mantle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/711268703991365642/959951002948210688/unknown.png _ _

[sand marlin]

Just make everything Flinx AI

[tender crater]

That would unironically be less of a headache to balance out

[drowsy plank]

pirate staff more like pirate crap

lmao gottem

[gray bone]

destroyed

ransacked

plundered

[crude geode]

Don’t say that or relogic will add pirate poop blocks in the next update

[buoyant idol]

It's too late, they already make particles of that.

[misty lichen]

🤯

[buoyant prairie]

Maybe more enemies for the events? Like more goblins and pirates?

[grave zinc]

@winter moon - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Delay the Devourer of Gods’ transition into phase two so he leaves the portal on the actual drop of Universal Collapse instead of the 3 note pickup]

It has officially been implemented into the game, and will be available in the next update!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[drowsy plank]

nice

[drowsy plank]

me when im devouring gods

[fervent orbit]

common cit fixing thing in 5 minutes w?

[royal tapir]

[grim tusk]

Scaling offensive reforges HELL NO

heck I want to nerf Silent once we rework rogue

[glass arch]

they ALREADY scale

thats how percent based boosts work

offensive reforges arent bad in any way shape or form they do not need to be buffed

[grim tusk]

4% of 20 is not the same as
4% of 8000

I wanna exclam this sugg so bad ngl

[sand marlin]

As far as I've talked with xpc the idea was to make it catch up to warding in some way
Which is yeah

[grim tusk]

But it fits on the rules as xpc knows how to makes suggs so I cant

[royal tapir]

True we should make Warding percent-based

[golden sonnet]

It already is

[grim tusk]

DR

[golden sonnet]

It's called damage reduction

[sand marlin]

What about adding an additional stat to menacing like lucky?

[royal tapir]

The defense

[sand marlin]

Lucky gives luck which is useful for rates

[grim tusk]

Tbh Lucky giving luck was completely unnecessary but was Ozz (i think) going “why not”

[glass arch]

what would menacing even give, lowered aggro

which does nothing

not even in multiplayer

[golden sonnet]

I like it to be honest, it has zero effect on combat and makes sense

[sand marlin]

Aggro would make it a bit annoying in multiplayer to have it slapped onto menacing in all seriousness

[grim tusk]

Yea thank fuck we removed luck affecting combat

[sand marlin]

Because then you can't go more damage if you wanna manage your aggro in a different direction

[golden sonnet]

Indeed, fuck that

[grim tusk]

Cuz imagine pre-rework Old die but on EVERYTHING

[glass arch]

no thanks im good

[grim tusk]

And pre-rework Old die was comically busted

[glass arch]

: )

[dense ferry]

Menacing does not need to scale like Warding and Lucky is already Lucky

Me when I fucking double my damage

[glass arch]

lucky is stupid

i love it so much

[sand marlin]

Lucky is just a second damage multiplier, that's really it

Just like how melee speed is a third for melee

[keen ore]

reference items to other media are unwelcome, right?

[glass arch]

yes

[keen ore]

ok thanks

[glass arch]

references for the sake of references are heavily frowned upon

idr if its completely banned but

[keen ore]

yeah it still is an indicator

[wide river]

I think if you really stretch the definition of the rules you could theoretically suggest a reference item if there is incredibly good reasoning for it. The Guidelines say this:

Reason: Simply being a reference to other media is not a valid reason for a suggestion to be implemented. All suggestions should have actual reasoning about why the requested change benefits the Calamity Mod.
So you could technically post a suggestion asking for a reference if it being a reference wasn't your main argument
I am incredibly certain it would never make it out of posting, but it technically wouldn't be against the rules

(Disclaimer: I am not a legal expert in the realm of suggestions. Do not actually try this, it will probably fail)

In all seriousness, just avoid reference suggestions if you can

[keen ore]

i wanted to suggest a rogue weapon that would have mechanic which referenced Worms' banana bomb, but uh yeah

[coral carbon]

Specific item suggestions arent allowed

[keen ore]

oh i forgor

thanks

[serene vapor]

you can get consolaria for holy hand grenades

[keen ore]

they are very meh

and another mod for it is more meh

so il just sit on my hands.~

[serene vapor]

I should make a mod that adds my own weapons to the game

Well

Weapons that I want to add (if I had any idea how to code)

[drowsy plank]

honestly as a dev, if this has 0% chance of passing in dev you CAN just exclaim it

[small timber]

I just saw some out of context statement, but it is late for me, so here are some:

1. Menacing vs Lucky is miniscule unless your damage vs crit number is unreasonably far apart (eg: rogue stealth); people forgot the fact that while crit is a multiplier, but your Menacing damage also scales with your currently existing crit (tldr here is my shitty Menacing vs Lucky calculator)

Menacing when playing optimally, in fact, is always better than Lucky just because offslot summoner weapon exist; Lucky is only better when your weapon base damage is super high compare to enemy defense AND not using summon

2. 4% of 20 and 4% of 8000 obviously have its difference, but there is 2 context here:
   i) said 4% is on top of the ~150% damage boost you already have + 100% base = around 1.6% increase in damage output
   ii) the suggestion is not asking for a significant scaling like Warding, but just a scaling to lessen the gap in efficiency; so it is not "4% damage" per slot, we are talking about like 1% (max 2%) per slot

3. I need to emphasize again, the suggestion is not asking for a significant scaling, but just make it more impactful with progression by a slight amount with the intentional to make it more on par with Warding (which currently is more efficient than Menacing even disregarding DR); assuming it scale from 4% to 5% at some point, at 7 slot it is 7% more damage; the easiest way to test if this is considered broken is literally to just test a boss with standard gear, then drink fabsol's vodka, and test it again

4. I feel it should be emphasized (too): this suggestion specifically is to reduce the gaps in performance/efficiency of Menacing/Warding for average player, for good player obviously you don't need the extra damage and part of the point: good player will beat the bosses regardless if Menacing is 5% or 3% right now; this suggestion is more so for the average player who are struggling with the game and taking the bait option of Menacing because maths

[sand marlin]

Lucky is also better when you have too much %damage

The law of balancing multipliers

1.5x1.5 > 1.8x1.3

[novel belfry]

2.25 | 2.34

[sand marlin]

2.25 2.24

[novel belfry]

odd

i must've messed up a calculation there

hang on uh

[distant gyro]

guh

[novel belfry]

am i missing something

[sand marlin]

Your calculator must be fucked lmao

That's so weird

[novel belfry]

i was using the windows built in search function

and THEN desmos

https://tenor.com/view/baffling-gif-24471655

[golden sonnet]

Idk what habble is saying

It's 2.34

[distant gyro]

yeah idk what

[sand marlin]

Wait a second...

[novel belfry]

i've been gaslit

[distant gyro]

math failure

[sand marlin]

Oh shit

[golden sonnet]

Habble discovers multiplication

[distant gyro]

the law is still true though

but provided the multipliers add up to the same number

[sand marlin]

Yeah

That was where I failed

[distant gyro]

1.5 + 1.5 is less than 1.8 + 1.3 after all

[novel belfry]

oh i see now

you posted x instead of +

[sand marlin]

Ok just do 1.6x1.6 > 1.8x1.4

[novel belfry]

now that? that makes sense

[sand marlin]

2.56 > 2.52 there we go

[novel belfry]

math checks out

[outer root]

yea 1.5x1.5 > 1.7x1.3

[distant gyro]

tangent aside im feeling more of a warding nerf than a menacing/lucky buff if this is the suggestion

modifiers provide an extra layer of choices in your build but really all they are is modifiers, they should not be carrying this much weight

something as basic as modifiers should not be giving you 42% damage

[floral yoke]

To be fair a warding nerf would make a little more sense

[distant gyro]

that's the main job of the accessory itself

42% is also afaik larger than any other permanent damage sources in this game

and so is 70 defense

[sand marlin]

Warding would probably not be nerfed because newer players rely on it to actually get progress done if they're struggling whereas experienced players wouldn't be that much affected

[distant gyro]

yeah at the end of the day my stance here is still do nothing

but the point here is that warding was buffed to provide greater weight than menacing (which for years was all people use)

and now we can't just play a game of seesaw and creep menacing again

[sand marlin]

Warding was underused? That's actually insane

[distant gyro]

at least for like the entirety of 2018-2020 meta all menacing is the only way

maybe lucky if you used unstable prism (at the time)

[sand marlin]

UGC pre rework was viable up to Moon Lord with crit abuse and bugged AP

[outer root]

how’s the balance of modifiers in vanilla

[sand marlin]

In vanilla warding is unmatched

There is like no counter to defense

[sleek turret]

You can go all warding offensive accs

[sand marlin]

There are no strong DoT either

Besides like, venom

[distant gyro]

warding is such a big get in vanilla that you subconsciously probably realize that in early game

[sleek turret]

There's Arcane also but that one is very ..................

[distant gyro]

where you would sometimes rather pick a random accessory with warding than something actual

[sleek turret]

For making Arcane viable you'd need to do something like how TRAE does by making mana regen not dependant from mana regen potions (rework the entire mana system and weapons)

[sand marlin]

5 warding yoyo strings make Deerclops trivial

[distant gyro]

arcane is a dead modif considering the mana limit

[golden sonnet]

Mana limit is gone now pretty sure

[sleek turret]

true but also trae makes mana regen be 10% of your max mana

[distant gyro]

and also mana not being a necessity either

[sleek turret]

Mana isn't really a necessity in particular because you just regenarate mana that easily in vanilla and cal

[sand marlin]

I use arcane to make sure my mana is above 300 for super mana potion

It's good for like, Spectre Hood for that

That's about it

[sleek turret]

The pillar for Mana to work is entirely reliant on Mana Regen potions

I haven't tried movement modifiers on vanilla but I'm pretty sure they are a bit forgotten too

Since a lot of vanilla equips give you pretty good speed alredy and some items like Insignia just remove the necessity of boots in the first place

[sand marlin]

Rebuffed magi makes quick irrelevant, otherwise quick was good for speed

Pretty sure quick still has impact on flight but I don't remember how exactly, I just know having too much speed sucks for precision flight

[sleek turret]

I attempted to use Quick on my Cal build but what I got mostly is just a 6 mph general speed increase

When flying

Mag exponentially increases ground speed a lot which is pretty good

[misty lichen]

warding doesn’t need to have scaling defense

the dr already makes it good at later tiers

full warding doesn’t need to contributing to like 50% of your total defense for the entire game

[sleek turret]

It's pretty fucked because you can relegate warding to all your accs and play offensive accs instead of full damage (if you were to use menacing or lucky) through the entirety of the game

You pretty much get 20/24 extra defense and 5%/6% DR on pre-hm (depending either if you play Expert or Master)

[sand marlin]

I've never considered it but by cal's standards you are admitting being a newbie by relying entirely on warding

[sleek turret]

The competitive elitism of no-hitting carries over

20 defense and 5% DR without sacrificing an acc slot and just going with warding is honestly pretty fucked.

[sand marlin]

I don't consider nohitting relevant to elitism anyway

I'm a hardcore casual player

Not "hardcore mode" mind you

[novel belfry]

i need warding to survive infernum 😭

[outer root]

^ skill issue (only because infernum)

[sleek turret]

Going tanky offensive in Cal seems to be the best loadout because the stats that warding gives are insane

[novel belfry]

yep and the new defensive accessories are all neat

and useful

and also The Absorber

[sleek turret]

Purity and The Absorber joining forces and becoming the best of the best for lategame

[novel belfry]

15 defense 12% movement and jump speed super-thorns that applies a strong debuff and a healing aura that cures one debuff and gives a decent regen (AND A FUCK TON OF OTHER SHIT) if you enter it

[sand marlin]

5% ADR

[novel belfry]

no wonder why they rejected my suggestion to give it a post-moon lord upgrade, it's already as stacked as it is

[sand marlin]

Also read more of the aura

[sleek turret]

And the purity line being strong at most points of the game

Honey Dew

[outer root]

ok if warding was +4% defense would anyone take it

[sleek turret]

It would scale with your actual defense given by other accs

[sand marlin]

Honestly no that would be worse in all stages of the game

[sleek turret]

Meaning it would make loadouts flow more because dedicating to defense instead of damage

[grim tusk]

Mucho texto

1 & 2) Anyways you realize the player has 7 slots endgame? (And 8 since we know a lot of people play with fucking wingslot). As someone who has nohitted, any damage boost is welcome and allows you to sometimes obliterate bosses really fast and you then explain how impactful the boosts are

3. That is free 7% more dmg on top of the already gigantic base dmg boost you have, and an even more stupid increase on Lucky (and even more on mfing ranger as that class has an accessory that allows it to supercrit (albeit with a heavy catch of needing pin-point accuracy and we know how strong this shit is so we have avoided adding a supercritting weapon thats not Soma Prime)) and turns crit boosts into even more dmg boosts)

4. shouldnt we then nerf warding if that’s the case? Yet remember that the average player doesnt minmax warding and minmaxes dmg as you said (and they still absolutely malded the first time we nerfed it). An experienced player knows how busted warding it is and abuses it to play aggressively with little to no drawback whatsoever or even facetank attacks by investing their resources Blender beam video

[sand marlin]

Heheh blender

[sleek turret]

Because right now you can just dedicate your build to offensive accs and just use warding to compensate all the other defense accs at some stages

[outer root]

whats the blender beam video lol

[grim tusk]

And thats the thing, wouldnt nerfing warding be the right choice instead of buffing the already volatile damage boosts

[outer root]

is it someone just tanking the exo blender beam

[grim tusk]

Yes

[sleek turret]

Diversifying defense options should be the first thing to balance first

[outer root]

would it be busted if menacing became a multiplier (im assuming yes but)

[grim tusk]

Yes

Brimflame frenzy is already comedy as a 1.3, now imagine that in the base equipment

[sleek turret]

Assuming A' does 100 damage and gets multiplied by 1.20x instead of 20% damage

Fuck

120 vs 120

[sand marlin]

Menacing... is already a multiplier? Huh?

[outer root]

yea thinking about it now a 1.28 multiplier in engame would be insane

[thorn dock]

any1 else feeling the evolution beeing kinda lackluster?

[grim tusk]

There is a reason DSA has a significant downside for a x1.2

[sand marlin]

Oh you meant if it is separate than %damage nvm then

[sleek turret]

Menacing is additive

[outer root]

no like all damage * other damage buffs * menacing buff

[sleek turret]

Yeah that

[outer root]

separate it from the others

[grim tusk]

Yes, dodges and reflects (minus mirror and brain lines those are comically op) are in a sorry state atm, Evolution being a notable one

[sand marlin]

Honestly I would just make the global cooldowns only tick down when the accessory is worn

[uneven adder]

how so?

[sand marlin]

So that hotswapping is out of the play

Just like philosopher's stone

[royal tapir]

Increased damage deviation, with a slight favor towards higher deviation
Damage deviation is multiplicative, so yeah
It also gave rogue attacks two rolls of damage deviation and took the highest one

[outer root]

used to be +33% to -25%, but it rolled twice and took the higher for rogue which averaged to some insane boost

[grim tusk]

1.4.4 Supernova was extremely bad
Pre-rework Old die made it obliterate Scal
Wand also obliterated Scal
And remember when Vehemence was a huge dmg stick? Well this turned it into a oneshot stick ocasionally luck correlates with skill

[uneven adder]

it got nerfed to 12.05% and -7.85% in 1.5 though

[glass arch]

and it was still horribly broken

[grim tusk]

And it was still comically busted due to the increased dmg deviation and even more on rogue due to the reroll

[glass arch]

anything affecting damage variance is going to break things

hence why luck affecting damage rolls was removed

[sleek turret]

Of course we remove luck damage variance and then give the item that used to give damage variance the ability to boost luck by 20% 🚎

[uneven adder]

well if you consider that vanilla damage variation is 15%, increasing both ends significantly is generally going to even out

the rogue rerolling was a horrible decision and I don't know why it was ever a thing, but a net of 1.08x damage is not worth an acessory slot, especially considering how weird damage variance works

oh wait it's prehardmode, yeah that would be worth it for a while

[sand marlin]

I consider it a buff to drop rates tbh

[outer root]

is this mentioned anywhere on the wiki

[glass arch]

uh no 1.08x multiplicative damage is kinda crazy
DSA has 1.2x and has a 15% dr reduction and thats post dog

[grim tusk]

On very fast hitting weapons the wand it still was comedy due to how many hits per second they dealt (and you get more high dmg rolls than low dmg ones)

[glass arch]

no

[sleek turret]

It might be for like some weird rare items you would try to get but are there any rare items when Cal gives recipe for those?

[uneven adder]

spite candle is effectively 1.05x damage and it's basically free

like yeah sure 2 plat, but money is realistically not a barrier at all

[sleek turret]

It would be useful for fishing because you get to boost fishing power via luck by a ton but the amount of FP you get in Cal is incredibly high

[sand marlin]

And it's still crazy

[grim tusk]

Dmg multiplier stacking is wack

Yes alone its not that impressive

[glass arch]

theres a reason candles arent used in testing

[sand marlin]

Only spite*

[grim tusk]

But then add more multipliers and

[sand marlin]

Well maybe if you're testing specifically for like the other three categories then you would not use them

[outer root]

they arent?

[glass arch]

not spiteful

[grim tusk]

And neither is alcohol

[glass arch]

yeah

[grim tusk]

Not even rum

[uneven adder]

I think two main parts of testing should be done, full optimization and casual

[sleek turret]

Rage and Adrenaline aren't used either too afaik

[uneven adder]

find a net balance between the two

[glass arch]

no

minmaxing should NEVER be balanced around. not in ANY circumstance.

[grim tusk]

We kind of already do some optimization testing but not full dmg min max cuz it gets really, really dumb

[uneven adder]

not solely balanced around

[grim tusk]

And then it doesnt allow you to see the problem

[sand marlin]

I think Moonshine is still fair game as long as you aren't exclusively abusing your defense/facetanking

[grim tusk]

Cuz the problem could be an accessory and not the weapon

[uneven adder]

you have to balance weapons around what's available at their point in progression, and that includes glass cannon builds

[grim tusk]

and thus rogue gets a fuckton of tests

[sand marlin]

I can't wait for rogue to actually get comprehensible

[grim tusk]

There is a reason we do not balance around Nohitters or any experienced players:
They are the minority and barely anyone plays like that

We use wellrounded builds when testing

[glass arch]

yeah and guess what i can glass cannon hard enough to kill 900% provi in testing time, that doesnt mean what i do should be balanced around

[grim tusk]

To cater to the most people as posible

[uneven adder]

and yet people are worrying about whip stacking

[grim tusk]

Whip stacking is going to fucking die

[sleek turret]

Wellrounded builds but you forget people also minmax menacing?

[glass arch]

yeah because whip stacking isnt hard to do in the slightest

[uneven adder]

yeah that's the thing

[sleek turret]

Lol?

[grim tusk]

If the buffs didnt last as long then it would be more fair to leave it but not only are they easy as shit to apply but its comically busted

[sand marlin]

^

[uneven adder]

stacking any more than three whips is actually pretty difficult and requires at least some melee speed optimizing

[sand marlin]

Why would you need more than two

Two or three is more than enough for whip stacking

[sleek turret]

Tag damage potential

Same as to debuffs

[uneven adder]

nobody stacks over 5-6 whips, there's kind of a hardcap of how many you can stack and the higher you go the more dps you're probably losing

[glass arch]

unlike glass cannon builds where you do actually need some skill to pull them off well, whip stacking is occasionally swapping between 2 or 3 whips

[grim tusk]

I remember trying stacking [the prototype] and leather whip with flat and yea baby slime hitting for 16 dmg was NOT OKAY (king slime died in 20 seconds)

[sand marlin]

"Potential" you realize the more you stack it the less effective it gets because you already have some flat damage added if you stack more and weaker flat tags it doesn't really make much difference

This is considering vanilla

I know cal has multi tag

[grim tusk]

We’re bringing flat back for pre-hm

[uneven adder]

stacking 3-4 whips is perfectly viable, it's just difficult to pull off

and basically nobody except shyguymask stacks more than 4

[drowsy plank]

me pressing the skill button (scroll wheel) and getting 500 bonus flat damage on summoner because i brought more than one whip and killing the boss in ten seconds

[sleek turret]

I love vagueposting

[uneven adder]

cal summoner can already kill a bunch of bosses without whips in 10 seconds

lmao

[glass arch]

no

it really cant

it can kill them fast yeah

but not 10 seconds fast

[uneven adder]

have you seen classless weapons

[drowsy plank]

every class can kill a bunch of bosses in 10 seconds if you explictly use the broken weapons

[uneven adder]

whips if anything are a lot worse than the support weapons cal adds

[drowsy plank]

i mean
maybe eye of magnus but

golden gun is a fucking joke, and aestheticus and lunic eye are just kinda okay

[uneven adder]

bee gun
shadethrower
yanmei's knife

[golden sonnet]

If you have seen snapthorn and kaleidoscope you would never unironically think this

[sleek turret]

Plasma Rod + Slime Gun

[sand marlin]

Bee gun is not support lmao

[drowsy plank]

bee gun???

[glass arch]

none of those are classless

[frail fox]

Bee Gun lmao what

[uneven adder]

snapthorn is fucking useless in cal

[sand marlin]

Nor is shadethrower

[sand marlin]

No

[golden sonnet]

?????????

[wide river]

Yanmei is

[golden sonnet]

[frail fox]

Brain rot support ig?

[uneven adder]

bee gun is actually not okay due to piercing only once in cal

[glass arch]

oh BROTHER you do NOT understand

[sleek turret]

None are classes but do they apply debuffs.

Which are the fucked part here as well

[grim tusk]

And thats why the
Summoner-balancing branch exists
And theres a bunch of armor and accessory nerfs there already and we’re still not done cuz 2-3 people balancing the whole game when theres other stuff to do as well takes a while

[uneven adder]

1.04x multiplier does nothing in phm except like abigail with enough slots

[glass arch]

snapthorn is literally the best whip until skeletron

[uneven adder]

because it's the only whip until skeletron

lmao

[outer root]

ok tbh the problem i take with whip stacking is that theres no other tech (jenk?) like it for any other class

[uneven adder]

besides leather but that's somehow worse

[sleek turret]

Let's acknowledge any class can pick Hellfire Treads and pick Plasma Rod and Slime Gun and fuck up any boss because of the debuff damage

[uneven adder]

exactly

[grim tusk]

Leather whip is fucking baffling

[drowsy plank]

i mean

[grim tusk]

They made it way harder to get than snapthorn when it was supposed to be the most basic whip

[sleek turret]

Little reminder Shadowflame and Hellfire are buffed to 15 DoT each

[golden sonnet]

It still cuts killtimes in half

[drowsy plank]

even when snapthorn isnt the only whip (catalyst) snapthorn was so fucking good that it had to get nerfed in that addon because even all the wacky whips they add couldnt compare

[uneven adder]

and when you consider plasma rod, slime gun, and so many other debuff support weapons exist, snapthorn (already being near useless in supporting minions) becomes next to nonexistent

[drowsy plank]

i love jungle gear

[sleek turret]

Brain Rot/Crimson Debuff give 25 DoT

[sand marlin]

Snapthorn is more of a dps monster over support for summons

[drowsy plank]

it's so balanced

[golden sonnet]

And other mods that add whips need to nerf it into the ground

[glass arch]

snapthorn is a viable weapon on its own

[uneven adder]

you're fucking joking

[glass arch]

no

raesh is not

[grim tusk]

Plasma rod should be tiershifted tbh

[sand marlin]

Keep in mind in vanilla Snapthorn solo was extremely viable early game

[uneven adder]

yeah because catalyst whips are next to useless

it took the previous balanced additions and nerfed them into oblivion

[sand marlin]

Yes you heard me right
SNAPTHORN SOLO

[grim tusk]

We wish he was

[uneven adder]

snapthorn in base cal is already useless, catalyst nerfing them was pointless

[glass arch]

snapthorn is a standalone weapon disguised as a support weapon

[grim tusk]

“Previously balanced”
LMAO

[glass arch]

this guy

this fucking guy

[wide river]

(Maybe you should actually show the killtimes with context so you aren't just spouting values and percentages at this person)

[wide river]

Thanks

[grim tusk]

Unofficial whips was the most unbalanced shit I’ve ever seen

[glass arch]

didnt it have like 200 tag on the post dog whip

[grim tusk]

Besides infinite stealth exe blade but that doesnt count cuz that was a bug

[sleek turret]

We love vagueposting 🤩

We love spreading whatever we have so that we dogpile people 🤩

[uneven adder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw22yZxMQU8

[drowsy plank]

oh my god please dont bring sgm into this

[uneven adder]

literally all I need to say

[sleek turret]

Same reason why the Class Consistency arguement was created in the first place so that SGM had to deal with more arguing

[uneven adder]

he is literally the whip connoisseur how can I not bring him into this

[glass arch]

no no he is not

[sleek turret]

Explain why he isn't exactly when he is literally carrying all the whip testing by his own while also revalidating his original arguments

[north oracle]

He's uh
Really not

[glass arch]

anyways an 8 minute video testing 4 bosses is not going to explain literally anything about balance

[frail fox]

Oh no not the sgm vid lmao

[north oracle]

He has some extensive tests that he's drawn the opposite conclusions to anyone else within catalyst from

[grim tusk]

Yea that vid is just complaining about summoner being op

[drowsy plank]

i love the dude in the comments on the SGM video saying calamity balances around the classes the "community made up" as if the names of the classes arent just straight from the fucking game

[sleek turret]

Are you saying that because you're oversimplifying the issue or are you saying that because you haven't watched the video properly

[grim tusk]

Watched a while back; Im ofc not gonna remember everything

[north oracle]

Yeh
He's saying the cata whips are weak, when it's more that the vanilla ones and multiclassing are stupidly strong

[uneven adder]

because it is, but completely without whips

[sleek turret]

He does explain that whips at late game are worse than going multiclass while also explaining that current summoner minions are incredibly strong

[grim tusk]

And we know

[golden sonnet]

this

[grim tusk]

.

[north oracle]

Which is uh

Kinda why all that's being nerfed by cal

[glass arch]

caldev knows exactly how broken summoner is
they just cant exactly balance the entire class automatically

[sand marlin]

Oh god only 2-3 for the entire rebalancing

[grim tusk]

And heck we already nerf Firecracker in the mod already

[uneven adder]

snapthorn, firecracker, and kaleidoscope are all severely overrated I don't understand your narrative at all

[north oracle]

Guh

[glass arch]

no they are not.

[sand marlin]

You literally saw killtimes on snapthorn

[glass arch]

someone grab the kts for kaleido im not in tiercord

[north oracle]

They aren't overrated
Snapthorn is strong through all of pre hardmode, firecracker and kaleidoscope last comfortably till yharon

[grim tusk]

Firecraker on tier is not that insane; later its comical

[uneven adder]

firecracker currently does jack shit and can barely compete with cool whip, even with the 2.75x multilier it still would have been severely inferior to morning star and kaleidoscope

[uneven adder]

post-ml it does nothing compared to kaleidscope

[sleek turret]

It feels hypocritical because Cal people say that Firecracker is broken on all tiers but then affirm that Morning Star is as broken as Firecracker?

[glass arch]

yeah because both of those whips are the most overpowered whips in the game

[golden sonnet]

Deepsea/Deepsea+Kalei
PBG - 2:23/1:43 (35%)
Fishron - 3:29/2:29 (41%)
Ravager - 1:57/1:13 (41%)
Cultist - 2:01/1:02 (22%)
Deus - 1:13/0:45 (21%) uh deepsea was not my best choice but haha funny anyway
ML - 3:55/2:22 (34%)

Elemental Axe/ Eaxe + Kalei
Folly - 1:58/1:16 (15%)
Guardians - 2:03/1:18 (16%)
Provi - 3:41/2:15 (10%)
Weaver - 2:40/1:14 (21%)
Void - 3:00/2:13 (22%)
Signus - 2:30/1:30 (11%)
Polter - 3:39/2:43 (13%)

Calamari/Calamari + Kalei
OD - 2:55/2:22 (5%)
Dog is immune to whip tags

Endo Hydra/Endo hydra + Kalei
Yharon - 4:04/2:55 (2%)
Exos - 5:56/5:18 (3%)
SCal - 4:57/4:49 (2.5%) (long acceptance)

we love 40% contribution!!

[north oracle]

(This was with plaguebringer armor post cultist which unbalanced those times a fair bit more)

[sand marlin]

Morning Star is considered overtuned by vanilla it nearly matches Kaleido in strength

[grim tusk]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/699705675965661324/978800677549662218/Belladonna-1.mp4?ex=65e7a9aa&is=65d534aa&hm=b47785e332c3e4e944e687e2815acddd633d3b7593812b0e6b94bde75560b538& kalei is so dumb.

This shit was a pre-hm weapon (and got reworked)

[drowsy plank]

here's the firecracker tests too, at least, the best i could find

[uneven adder]

yeah that stuff is mathematically impossible

I've already seen the tierlist document

[north oracle]

[glass arch]

you literally just saw it be mathematically possible

[uneven adder]

tbf that's also a belladonna issue, and it got reworked

[sand marlin]

Ok go test it yourself

[north oracle]

The percentages are how much damage the whip does

The rest of the reduction is the tag

[grim tusk]

Yea cuz we nerf Firecracker to x1.25

[grim tusk]

Now imagine something like Cosmic Viper engine

[uneven adder]

I did

firecracker manages to get 23 seconds below the killtime for yharon, while kaleidoscope easily manages 15 seconds faster at least

[golden sonnet]

this

[glass arch]

before it was nerfed it was as good or even better than kaleido on yharon with cve

[uneven adder]

even before nerf, firecracker would have been inferior to kaleidoscope

[golden sonnet]

it was tested, and it wasn't

[drowsy plank]

okay except for the evidence we have clearly showing it wasnt yeah lmao

[golden sonnet]

you are just feels crafting

[north oracle]

It like

It factually was not worse lmao

[glass arch]

you can look at the times, we posted them this conversation

[grim tusk]

As someone who used it on Cosmic Immat pre-nerf during 1.4-beta I can claim the opposite

[uneven adder]

firecracker is only about 10 seconds faster on yharon (which is about a two minute fight), so prior to nerf it would have logically only been about 13 seconds faster than without whips

[grim tusk]

What!?

[uneven adder]

2x multiplier versus 2.75x multiplier

[drowsy plank]

[grim tusk]

Pre-nerf cracker would have given more than twice the dmg

[grim tusk]

Atm its x1.25

[glass arch]

sorry not sorry for this but the issue here is you are trying to use your brain

[grim tusk]

Is he tho?

[golden sonnet]

lets not devolve to this

[grim tusk]

[royal tapir]

Rule 5 of Terraria Modding:
It is impossible to have a civil discussion about whips

[golden sonnet]

pointless insults get nowhere

[outer root]

they have stupid/fucking/autistic in their pronouns lmfao

[frail mantle]

I love ad hominem

[dense locust]

I mean it's possible just not in this server

[grim tusk]

Its not possible ANYWHERE

[golden sonnet]

I guess it's fair then???

[grim tusk]

See: Terramain, Thorium and Fargos

[glass arch]

it works in 2 ways
both as an insult (which was not the original intention but it absolutely became that)
and as a way to say how whips are illogically good

[outer root]

ok is whip stacking unintended jenk

[north oracle]

unless it's catadev where the only uncivility is me insulting kaleidoscope

[dense locust]

what did kalei do to you

[ashen warren]

Many things.

[glass arch]

just look at the kaleido kts

[drowsy plank]

i know vanilla is doing some stuff about whips i forget if it was just separating melee speed and whips speed or if they were making whip speed bonuses exclusive to their respective whip

[grim tusk]

And as we mentioned thats on tier;
Now grab desert tiger or stardust dragon and see the comedy

[sand marlin]

Whip speed buffs are nerfed, that's all I remember

I think it lasts shorter?

[north oracle]

Lasted till endgame when I decided "oh ill test this"

Destroyed anything catalyst tried to do with whip balancing

constantly gets underrated by people who don't do cal balancing

[sand marlin]

Melee speed still affects whip speed

Or that might be a tmod thing, not sure at this point I haven't done main game in a while

[grim tusk]

Pretty sure Leinfors wanted whip stack dead

We dont know if they’ll carry his wish tho

[drowsy plank]

yeah understandable

[sand marlin]

It's quote on quote "if I get around to balancing again whip stacking is dying"

I think so anyway

[floral yoke]

On top of the new whips being added, hopefully they do

[drowsy plank]

im pretty sure the defense loss on everything after molten skull rose is intentional

[floral yoke]

Whip stacking would need to be tackled

[drowsy plank]

MSR having the bonus defense was so people would actually use it instead of it just being another quirky vanilla crafting recipe stepping stone

[sleek turret]

You should check the Hegelian Dialectic

[sand marlin]

Yeah pretty sure boots having defense would be weird, and it's not weird to have defense on like an actual obsidian skull

[winter moon]

nice

[sleek turret]

It pretty much shows the attitude that a lot of people have when discussing Calamity summoner balance actually

[frail mantle]

I thought I remembered him (or someone else ) saying they were reluctant to actually remove whip stacking because people like it

[sand marlin]

I'll try and find the image I quoted

[grim tusk]

I think that was Teiull

[frail mantle]

It was?

Hm

[grim tusk]

tbh she might have bias due to being a friend of Sgm

[north oracle]

[dense ferry]

If someone likes Whip stacking it's him

I know no one else who does

Unless they enjoy the power trip of killing Golem while standing still with a Terra Blade

(Very easy actually)

[frail mantle]

I feel like that’s just the average golem fight

[grim tusk]

They patched that for a while by making Whips not increase melee speed (they now use SummonerMeleeSpeed instead)

and then they reworked Terrablade into a pillar tier weapon power wise

[sand marlin]

This

Sourced from #1042197406776827914 message

[outer root]

LMFAO that thread ends in an all caps battle over summoner

[fervent orbit]

hey look!

im famous!

[sand marlin]

Insiders know that it was intentional

[fervent orbit]

indeed

[outer root]

damn i got baited

[golden sonnet]

still can't believe they aren't banned

smh

[outer root]

"LETS HAVE OUR FINAL WHIP DEBATE"

[sand marlin]

I should hire these guys they argue good

[fervent orbit]

it was an intentional act to mock the entire thread, since thats wat most of the discussions were about, and often the most heated debates arrived from

[frail mantle]

Insiders

[sand marlin]

Lier

[wide river]

It was definitely not the way I wished for the thread to go out

[sand marlin]

Yes I would have preferred a debate over class distinction

[royal tapir]

I would have rather it went out in quiet

[north oracle]

it would've if it closed when it was meant to

[dense ferry]

I think it's funny

[fervent orbit]

kind of an l on the admins parts tbh,,

[north oracle]

Yeh, it was probably unnecessary
But it was funny and I can always delete all my messages and make noob look even more insane

[fervent orbit]

I AM NOT INSANE

[wide river]

[royal tapir]

We already knew you are

[odd geyser]

words uttered by the mentally deranged

[frail mantle]

Schizophrenia

[odd geyser]

words uttered by the mentally deranged (1)

[fervent orbit]

i am perfectly fine

NUH UH

[royal tapir]

Rook to H8

[outer root]

its almost like youre everywhere

at the end of time

yea when does scal say "this has been a calamity"

[odd geyser]

when you

[misty lichen]

player i remembere youre calamities

[thorn dock]

I m running regenator and at 400/800 I m not having frozen shields + dmg reduction effect. Is this intended?

[grim tusk]

frozen shields is at 25% hp

not 50%

just drop to ~200 hp

[thorn dock]

No 50% is what the item says for me (rampart)

[golden sonnet]

400/800 is not below 50%

[royal tapir]

There are two different DR thresholds

One at 50, one at 25

[north oracle]

This is uh
The suggestions channel, not help advice

Unless this is leading up to a suggestion?

[thorn dock]

Vexation for example works at 50% and old mutated truffle also did. Feels like an inconsistency

[grim tusk]

nor #1052323733961977947

[royal tapir]

Anyway according to the code, Rampart's ice shield should be triggering at exactly 50% HP

[thorn dock]

Not getting it at 400/800 wuth regenator

[grim tusk]

so instead of #suggestions-posting its #1052323733961977947

[thorn dock]

Might mKe a suggestion

Oh ok

Ty

[grim tusk]

just remember to #1052330262492631071

[royal tapir]

This is definitely a mod conflict or something because I just tested it in game and am getting it at exactly 50%

[sand marlin]

...how do you have 800 perfect health

[outer root]

yea whats your mod list

[thorn dock]

Well I assume you have regenator on? Doesnt work for me

[grim tusk]

client.log*

[grim tusk]

on public or beta?

[crude geode]

Knook to D7

[north oracle]

Again, not #help-advice-read-pins
This is either a bug or just a question, so please take it out of this chat

[royal tapir]

Beta, but the ice shield effect has not been touched in beta at all

[grim tusk]

from what CIT said its either mod conflict or fixed in next patch

[thorn dock]

Awesome, ty

[fierce epoch]

Last time I came here I did Firecracker tests in 1.4.1 when Obsidian Armor was just revamped to see if it was to the level of the other whips and if it really was a x2 power boost like the folk here claimed it to be.

It wasn't.
But I didn't do anything with that other than showing it off.

In the end one ends up realizing that trying to argument too much makes your points weaker to the people you talk to.
Even if it shouldn't.

[glass arch]

please just let the convo die

[fierce epoch]

Whatever it may be I have always doubted the arguments the people here make about Firecracker being an Adrenaline-level damage boost but if I was asked to do the tests again... I'm not sure what I'd do.

[fierce epoch]

I'm doing nothing wrong pal. Let me comment on it.

[glass arch]

i never said you were doing anything wrong.

i asked to let the convo die.

[fierce epoch]

Besides... testing is hard when you have long stopped caring so much about arguments.

I'll probably always bring up those personal Firecracker tests though.

Either way I'll probably know more when you guys actually get to putting time into whips.

I hope your past bad experiences don't cloud your judgement on 'em though. They're fun things. Hope to see some nice work from y'all.

[frail mantle]

As I like to say, if the devs hated whips they’d make them all deal melee damage

[fierce epoch]

That wouldn't be hating whips. That would be hating the game.

Then again, everyone who plays Terraria ends up hating it so maybe I'm onto something?

Besides that'd be a poor choice when Calamity has put a lot of focus on varied Melee weapons.

[sleek turret]

Discussions about whips are possible as long as people don't start shoving their egotistical thoughts on other people but ok I guess

[frail mantle]

Discussions are impossible

No more thinking

Brain empty

[sleek turret]

No more dialectics, they're gone.

Only a form to write, a book of insults, and hatred.

[fierce epoch]

Nobody ever cared about: [Whip Balance]

Why? Who knows.

[sleek turret]

The Voice of Reason vs The Ego

[fierce epoch]

Well one has to figure out how truly civil anything was in the past.

If ya ask me it wasn't.

[sleek turret]

Truly.

[fierce epoch]

But that's not what really bothers me.

What bothers me is that it caused both sides to become very egotistical and unable to listen to each other.

[drowsy plank]

are you guys still going on about this

[fierce epoch]

So now whenever whips are brought up ya get some wacky conversations.

[drowsy plank]

you know a good way to move on from it is to stop discussing it in a meta sense too

[fierce epoch]

That works for some, but you'll always find the folk who really like discussing it that way.

In the end the only thing you can do is letting it flow if it doesn't affect anybody.

[drowsy plank]

well it is affecting people
like me
who wants to see literally anything else be talked about in here
and i wouldnt say a discussion about the discussion about whips is very topical to #suggestions-discussion at this point

speaking of

@cyan thunder the boots not having defense but molten skull rose having 7 is intentional so that molten skull rose actually has a niche

[fierce epoch]

Knew you'd say that. Well then.

[fervent orbit]

dw cog i will make a whip suggestion so its relevant

[fierce epoch]

There's always judgement to be had y'know.

[wide river]

Cog if Noob makes a whip suggestion I will pay you to delete it

[drowsy plank]

you wouldnt need to

[fierce epoch]

But it's free money pal.

[drowsy plank]

TRUE
anyway yeah im not sure what adding defense to the boots is trying to solve here

[fierce epoch]

Might as well take adavantage of the frustration of others.

[drowsy plank]

"certain wings being a better mobility option than the tracers they are used in"
yeah but like. the solution here is to just not use good wings when making tracers

it's not like they dont both blatantly have their stats displayed or anything

[serene vapor]

just use skyline or fledgeling wings
problem solved

[drowsy plank]

i mean that is what i am saying just with specifics

[fierce epoch]

I'll probably be the only one to suggest using balloons.

[drowsy plank]

but yeah i dont think 7 defense is going to save elysian tracers or anything lmfao

[wide river]

How about 12 defense!

[drowsy plank]

[serene vapor]

Elysian traders aren’t even that bad

celestial tracers suck tho

[fervent orbit]

whats next?

you saying seraph tracers are the worst of the bunch?

[wide river]

Technically they're fine
It's just that the only thing you'd use them on is a boss where flight is really important, hence using Silva Wings is almost always superior

[serene vapor]

No

[drowsy plank]

i think cal already has a bit of an issue of using defense as a bandaid stat for when accessories are bad
similarly to debuff immunities
i do not think that tracers need to also recieve defense
it's causing a bit of defensive powercreep

[fierce epoch]

"Aren't even that bad"

It may be that I haven't played in a while, but how the hell are they even slightly bad when you have an extra slot for anything else for using them?

[serene vapor]

purity
this is a joke

[drowsy plank]

celestial tracers i think are way more viable than elysian, plus elysian kind of get instagraded to seraph which are just flat out better in every scenario anyway

[fervent orbit]

people already dont use angel treads post ml

do u rlly think post ml wing users are also using treads?

[wide river]

I feel like most of the immunities that accessories give can get turned into either resistances (a la Abaddon and Celestial Shell) or removed outright

[serene vapor]

I do

[fierce epoch]

I guess I really like boots.

[fervent orbit]

well ur insane and are wasting a slot

[drowsy plank]

yeah
the problem is for some accessories that means they'd ALSO get removed outright

[serene vapor]

I upgrade to Elysian tracers

I don’t use celestial though

[wide river]

For some of them, nothing of value would be lost

[fierce epoch]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/559901453834256404/903940027267039232/image0-54.gif

[drowsy plank]

not wrong

[wide river]

Don't you love when you get Plague immunity before fighting the only significant source of the debuff
And then defeating the boss gives you two more ways to be immune to Plague

Yes I am still focused on Plague stuff no this will not change

[serene vapor]

I’m putting a new suggestion so that we have something to talk about

[fierce epoch]

There's always alternate ways to redeem your wicked soul.

[glass arch]

whar

[wide river]

What did the user mean by this

[serene vapor]

something new

[spark ravine]

unlouding the loud weapon

[fierce epoch]

It is what they call a personal attack.

[serene vapor]

is it supposed to be loud?

Is that a part of the weapon’s identity

Did I miss something?

[glass arch]

its an unfortunate side effect

its not exactly a quiet use sound and that issue gets exacerbated with it having 15 usetime

[serene vapor]

Yeah

[spark ravine]

I assume it's an oversight, as the wingman fires three projectiles directly overlapping each other. The sfx probably plays three times over itself as well, hence why other weapons that use the same sfx aren't nearly as loud (no it's not part of it's identity, not what I meant sorry)

[glass arch]

nah the sfx is only played on use

the projectiles are all spawned in the same use

[serene vapor]

It’s still very loud

I could barely hear plaguebringer Goliath’s theme

[glass arch]

yeah

[spark ravine]

ye, I mean the three sounds play simultaneously on use, and is louder due to that fact.

[drowsy plank]

plague really does have the issue of having way too many items that do absolutely nothing of significance

like there's so much stuff made for plague and on the average run you use about 10% of it and then it never comes up again

[serene vapor]

how can a theme be both overused and underused

[drowsy plank]

because so much of what it has is dogshit

[serene vapor]

never comes up again unless it’s tactical plague engine

[wide river]

I love my 3 weapon sets that you only use 1-2 individual weapons of per run

[serene vapor]

cnidarian upgrades would be cool

[drowsy plank]

that is not an exception to what i said whatsoever
pbg drops 11 fucking items and like 2 of them are worth using

and it also has a legendary drop
and it also has a material
and that's STILL not mentioning plague cell canisters

[serene vapor]

and also malachite
does that count as a plague item

[wide river]

I know the devs are gonna cull the ice-themed stuff around Cryogen at some point
Maybe they could do the same with Plague

[drowsy plank]

i dont think plague needs to be culled; it needs to be fucking spread out

[serene vapor]

-Draedon

[dense ferry]

Shaking and crying rn

[drowsy plank]

sickness debuffs are already nearly impossible to find good sources of and it's probably because half of them all come from the same fucking boss

[serene vapor]

if they do end up making the plague minibiome, that would be cool

[drowsy plank]

plague could start way sooner, maybe even just at the start of hardmode effectively, and all the spiritual queen bee upgrades could just become actual queen bee upgrades made with plague cell canisters
then pbg could have its drops
and then you could make IAP crafts like post-Cultist or something

boom there

spread out

[dense ferry]

There are two ways we can take this, either make Plague much smaller in scope, essentially being a mini event, or spread things out yeah

[wide river]

You've got Infected Armor Plating with basically just the Arsenal stuff and donor content (there is a singular exception to this)
Plague Cell Canisters as the default Plague material with I'd say a normal amount of stuff
And Plaguebringer Goliath drops are too much

[dense ferry]

The problem is more deciding when to start the Plague

Because yeah early Harmode is a thing

[fervent orbit]

early hm has a lot too

see: mech tier

[wide river]

Too early and the early Hardmode bloat is real

Any later and you're creeping into Moon Lord territory

[drowsy plank]

i know early hardmode is a shitshow, but if it's going to effectively be Start Of The Game 2 you might as well make something happen in jungle beyond like. i dunno turtles and moths or some shit
hell you could put it behind mech-1 or mech-2 if it's really that much of an issue

[serene vapor]

put it in pre hardmode

[wide river]

God

[fervent orbit]

theres also post plant, which is just more jungle (a problem that also appears in post golem too)

[wide river]

The curse of vanilla fixating way too much on the Jungle

[dense ferry]

I think it could be enabled at the start of Hardmode, obligatorily would happen after Plantera, and then PBG remains Post Golem

[drowsy plank]

that sounds fine

[dense ferry]

It gives time for the Plague to settle in

[drowsy plank]

also move the IAP crafts to ancient manipulator so PBG doesn't have 2 sets of weapons still too

[dense ferry]

Also Post Plantera does lack in terms of normal enemy stuff

[serene vapor]

Sorta like astral infection

[dense ferry]

There is the Jungle Temple but

Jungle Temple lmao

[serene vapor]

No one likes the jungle temple

[fervent orbit]

wdym the festive moon events and solar eclipse are right there

[wide river]

The only reason it has enemies is obligatory biome enemy slot filling

[dense ferry]

Oh my God I completely forgot Moon Events

And Solar Eclipse

[drowsy plank]

dw reb they're post-Golem anyway

vanilla said so

[dense ferry]

Kills you

[fervent orbit]

solar eclipse

[wide river]

And this is why vanilla was a mistake

[drowsy plank]

you know you'd think the massive explosion of content would be post-Moon Lord instead of just late hardmode if post-Wall of Flesh was anything to go off of

[dense ferry]

Cal took a while to dip its toes into Post Moon Lord stuff tbh

Specially seeing as the Mod predates Moon Lord

[serene vapor]

1.1.7

[fervent orbit]

we should kill mechs and make them into one boss

then uhhhh

[serene vapor]

I think

[dense ferry]

Ah, yes

[serene vapor]

ocram

[drowsy plank]

but nah u get duke, PBG, empress, ravager, deus, frost moon, and pumpkin moon all intending to be post-Golem, effectively

[dense ferry]

Wait Modding wasn't even a thing in 1.1

Whatever

[fervent orbit]

how do we fix as, cryo and brimmy tho

[dense ferry]

We don't

They don't need to be fixed

They are perfectly fine

[drowsy plank]

i think noob is joking

about merging the mech bosses

[dense ferry]

Ah

[serene vapor]

that’s the neat part, you don’t

[drowsy plank]

the obvious answer is to turn them into the Abomination

[fervent orbit]

but seriously 6 bosses is a lot

[serene vapor]

Fogbound

[drowsy plank]

surely a sea serpent, hell elemental, and living ice prison will fit together just fine

noob ur acting like the hardmode progression rework doesnt exist

[dense ferry]

I mean they are loosely divided into 3 mini-tiers

[wide river]

Merge every boss into one boss to reduce bloat entirely
Certainly there is no other mod who did this idea already

[dense ferry]

Brimmy is balanced around Mech 3

Cryogen and AS can be fought at any point

[fervent orbit]

wait what

since when

[dense ferry]

Idk she has a lot of health

And deals a lot of damage

She always felt far tankier than any other Boss

[wide river]

If health's the balancing factor then Queen Bee would be much earlier

[fervent orbit]

yea

[dense ferry]

Idk she always felt hard enough to warrant a Mech 3 balancing

[fervent orbit]

plus brimmy is the least mobile of the bosses which is why she has such high hp

easy to hit target

[dense ferry]

Like, to me, she is far harder than all of the other 5

[wide river]

She's definitely not one I take on first, anyway

[spark ravine]

opposite for me tbh

[fervent orbit]

not like u can

shes post 1 mech

[dense ferry]

Byeah anyways

[wide river]

I have my ways (cheating

[dense ferry]

Yeah still Plague would be better Plantera to Golem

Oh my FUCKING GOD THERE IS THE DUNGEON

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/466943505663655937/1083946998614470748/1678391318329531.gif

[wide river]

:hdflr:

[dense ferry]

Nevermind I have no fucking idea where this shit would fit

Maybe early HM

Like, three amp ups

[wide river]

The clear solution is to create a whole new tier of just Calamity stuff so there's no more problems with tiering

[dense ferry]

Starts in HM > Gets stronger Post Mechs > Gets one final buff Post Golem

[fervent orbit]

i mean they managed to make a tier of literally just evil 2s and nothing else so

[dense ferry]

Yes Post Mechs already has Chloro but whatever

[fervent orbit]

WAIT THATS IT

PLAGUE PRE EVIL 2!!

[dense ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/i-have-your-home-adress-i-have-your-ip-address-meme-your-mom-gif-24871317

[serene vapor]

Plague post-guardians

[wide river]

Noob
For the love of god no

[serene vapor]

because uhhhh I said so

[dense ferry]

This is the best one imo

[golden sonnet]

Budget OOA

[serene vapor]

So it’s life fruit

[fervent orbit]

i have yet to see a proper counterarguement

therefore i win

[dense ferry]

Jungle gets actual fucking content in Early HM and not just weird shit spawning in, mining Chlorophyte becomes a slightly more difficult task, and Post Golem is where it is right now so

[wide river]

Counterargument: Your mother

[fervent orbit]

clearly im in the right here

[dense ferry]

Byeah

That's the best progression for Plague imo

[wide river]

What might this suggest for Jungle lab

[odd geyser]

I already knew it

[fervent orbit]

no the best place is pre evi-

💥

[wide river]

Fire at will Reb

We can't save this one

[drowsy plank]

plague pre-Boss

[frail fox]

Plague pre-game, you get it irl and die

[outer root]

hey 2020 called!

stay inside.

[frail fox]

I just remembered that Perfs have 3 melee weapons while Hive Mind has 1 so what if I suggest having Vein Burster wiped off the face of the Earth?

[crude geode]

perf/hive mind weapons when they truly do exist

[fervent orbit]

wow one for every worm

[odd geyser]

add whips to irl

my suggestion

[serene vapor]

Too similar to perfect dark anyway

[frail fox]

Yeah, which makes me wonder why it’s lived for so long unlike similar weapons

[royal tapir]

I recall Xyk and Memes having different rework ideas

I know at the very least, they wanted to rework Vein Burster and remove Sausage Maker

[drowsy plank]

remove spear keep sword

https://tenor.com/view/1984-gif-19260546

[royal tapir]

What if the rework makes it not a sword

[drowsy plank]

true..,.,.,.

[dapper apex]

Turn spear into irl boar spear

[frail fox]

Vein whip

[misty lichen]

i feel like wingman just plays the space gun sound 3 times

[serene vapor]

Not the same sound effect

Space gun uses a different one iirc

Wingman uses the WoF laser sound

[misty lichen]

you get the idea

[frail fox]

Also they hate him because of his silly name…

[novel belfry]

wingman should instead become an accessory

[frail fox]

7% reduced mana usage

[glass arch]

we love mage accessories!!!!!

we love mana cost reduction!!!!!!!!

[serene vapor]

wdym

[wide river]

Mage accessory that does the same as Rusty Medallion

[glass arch]

ok but considering all the accessories mage has

that would be a welcome addition in my book

[serene vapor]

why do you think I requested an arcane flower buff some time ago

[glass arch]

god no

that thing doesnt need a buff

[wide river]

You say that #suggestions-discussion message

[glass arch]

well.

i know what im doing :3

[serene vapor]

why not

[glass arch]

it has the exact same mana cost reduction as magnet flower

which is already busted

[novel belfry]

i'd think it be more like its namesake and have it be some form of extra projectiles for magic guns

[serene vapor]

okay?
magnet flower is way better

currently

the “reduced aggro” is basically useless

[royal tapir]

Right thanks for reminding me that I wanted to nerf Magnet Flower's mana cost reduction

[glass arch]

you're welcome

[golden sonnet]

If you don't also nerf the putrid scent flower than that will be unnecessary

Magnet flower is already gonna be worse next update when putrid scent gives damage in the combo

[bright crag]

Worse...?

Celestial Magbet effect is one of the most useful effects you could have as a Mage

So unless you have that effect in another accessory, Magnet Flower will still remain very relevant

[golden sonnet]

Arcane flower is getting the damage from putrid scent next update

And mana star reach is irrelevant for nearly every hardmode and beyond boss

[bright crag]

How so?

[golden sonnet]

Because the only boss that can drop mana stars after hardmode is like, queen slime, destroyer, and plantera

[bright crag]

And the game isn't all bosses

[golden sonnet]

Ok, but when not doing bosses you don't need mana magnet because enemies are dying right in front of you

[fossil finch]

yeah but in this specific scenario you nver run out of mana in non boss situations

outside of The Moons

only events that get chaotic enough by themselves to warrant draining your mana with zero breaks

[misty lichen]

very false

however the usefulness disappears when you kill golem because sigil gives the pickup range anyways

[bright crag]

Brimmy, Levana, PBG

[bright crag]

If you use mana potions, sure, but that'll take a toll on your damage

[fossil finch]

no really like

you are not running out of mana in normal combat

[bright crag]

And there's plenty of events in HM so

[misty lichen]

mana stars on pbg and levana are HUGE

[fossil finch]

more than enough time between enemy encounters )most of which end on one click) to regen the mana you're losing

[bright crag]

It's situational but I don't think it's accurate to aay you'll never run out of mana

"End in one click"
Huh?

[fossil finch]

pirates and the moons are honestly the only events where like yeah the magnet is incredibly useful because they Just SHit so many enemies at you

[golden sonnet]

I just don't see magnet flower ever being used for meta, you will always choose arcane flower especially if you nerf magnet flowers mana reduction and not arcanes. Like yes meta isn't everything but the nerf just feels unnecessary

[bright crag]

Not every mob dies in one click

[fossil finch]

eclipse isn't as strong in that regard unless you're purposefully zerging yourself

sorry then a 3 second click/3 clicks

[misty lichen]

mana cost absolutely doesn’t need a nerf yeah

i think it has usage if the magnet effect is removed from sigil because it’s relevant on a lot of post golem-dog bosses

[bright crag]

There is the aspect that Magnet Flower is available much earlier in the game

[misty lichen]

i feel like nobody knows what mage is supposed to be

zero identity class

[bright crag]

Mage is an aborted burst xamage class

[fossil finch]

do not attempt to get into class identity there is no such thing

[bright crag]

It was meant to be burst damage due to having to recover mana, but then vanilla abandoned that idea by introduding mana potions and making them invariably better

[misty lichen]

mage is the your projectiles do weird things class but in modded that’s many more weapons

[fossil finch]

therefore technically a modded problem specifically and unfixable unless we nuke tmod's headquarters by tomorrow

[drowsy plank]

mage used to be the utility class with things like lifesteal and debuffs but now everyone has that

[fossil finch]

you know that's not true

mage lifesteal applies to one weapon and one armor

and most people don't even remember the weapon exists

[misty lichen]

calamity throwing very tiny cooldown affected lifesteal onto every armor doesnt count

[fossil finch]

and fully honestly nobody should have to remember life drain is a thing either

[misty lichen]

mages identity is having spectre armor

[fossil finch]

clearly

[misty lichen]

byeah mage needs to decide WHAT it wants to do and what playstyle it wants to cater towards because it lacks that clear direction

[fossil finch]

this is implies other classes do which they do kinda not

[misty lichen]

as shit as rogue is right now it has that

melee has it too

ranger i guess does

and summoner is in the cooking pot