suggestions-discussion

[ashen warren]

Kinda ironic that we get a prov border & ML drawing sugg, when both were brought up during the prov border’s creation

[pearl geode]

is this suggestions for calamity?

if yes

then add the

ELECTRIC BOOGALOO

idk what it should be lol

just hte electric boogaloo

or the thingymajig

[ripe owl]

No joke suggestions pal

[pearl geode]

aw

oh wait

nonono

im serios

add the electric boogaloo or a thingymajig to calamity

[spark ravine]

I'm like 90% sure I know the answer here, but if someone could confirm: shroomite helmet not affecting ammoless ranged weapons is a bug, not an intentional decision, right?

[verbal nexus]

is the murasama argument finished?

[drowsy plank]

yes dont bring it up again

[grim tusk]

If shroomite affects something like Toxicarp in vanilla then its a bug

[spark ravine]

It affects vanilla ammoless weapons (toxicarp, piranha gun) but not calamity-specific ammoless weapons (stellar cannon, arc nova). However, it does affect "other* ranged weapons that use some form of ammo (star cannons, sandstorm, spectralstorm) tho. Thanks for confirmation.

[grim tusk]

Alr go to #1052323733961977947 and make sure to read #1052330262492631071

[spark ravine]

do I still need to include OS, specs, etc. if its not a performance-related bug?

[grim tusk]

It helps

[spark ravine]

k

[royal tapir]

Yeah that's a known bug

[spark ravine]

It's known? No need to report it then?

[royal tapir]

Go ahead still

[spark ravine]

k

[marble cipher]

known but not documented bugs tend to get repeatedly asked about or forgotten and not fixed

[hollow shell]

Why are there now two different respawn time configs in posting?

Did the respawn timer get changed in the most recent update?

[fervent orbit]

yes

from 30 to 15

[hollow shell]

Ok that explains it

@fiery condor Someone beat you to it #suggestions-posting message

[fiery condor]

oops, should I delete it?

[hollow shell]

Yeah. Redundant.

[gentle chasm]

what about my suggestion

[vagrant spindle]

we should normalize cheat sheet for building

[glass arch]

cheat sheet is the best qol

[drowsy plank]

i dont disagree that getting dungeon stuff renewably should be both possible and easy (looking at you uncraftable dungeon furniture for whatever fucking reason) but yeah you could just spawn the blocks in lol

[keen ore]

suggestions about returning malice are rejected?

[golden sonnet]

yes, removed content was removed for a reason

[keen ore]

then what made malice to be removed lol

idk to simply put it

[golden sonnet]

that exact example is actually in the pinned document of suggestion guidelines/donts

this post also goes more in depth to the issues malice had
`Malice originally came about from an idea to make obtaining Legendaries less RNG based
It was meant to allow the player to enrage specific bosses, giving them new phases or attacks, to guarantee the drop.
However, this was watered down to what Malice was on release, being a mode which affected all bosses, and included RIV(Rare Item Variants).

At the time, Malice was received poorly by a lot of players due to the bosses being overtuned to the point of being unfair, while locking items behind them.

• ...No tester had beaten the Exo Mechs on Malice mode when it released.

• The explanation was that it was meant to be a "refight" mode, but that was never the real intention.

Malice exclusive drops were eventually removed, as we did not want players to feel obligated to play a poorly balanced difficulty.
Over time, Malice was balanced to be less unfair, but we realized that with the exclusive drops gone, it was not worth the effort.
This is why we deleted Malice, so that dev time and effort may be spent elsewhere, notably Death mode.

• We acknowledge that some people liked the difficulty as death is not enough of a challenge for them. If you still seek more difficulty, some alternatives to try out would be the Infernum Addon, Master Mode, the boss hp config, or, if you want funny changes, For The Worthy.`

[keen ore]

uh-huh
that explains it
thank you for clearing this for me

[golden sonnet]

[keen ore]

at least i know now that its a must to download and read all docs from here kekw

[golden sonnet]

Yeah, the pinned document goes over all requirements/guidelines for suggestions, so if you want your suggestion to get through (and to not get pinged by people explaining why your suggestion is against the rules) you should definitely read it

[keen ore]

there is not even a single mod that brings malice back aww

[drowsy plank]

im pretty sure there is? they might be outdated at this point tho lol

[keen ore]

in mod browser or google searches there is no steam/mod page

[glass arch]

there is it just hasnt been updated

[fervent orbit]

wasnt it also very broken

[keen ore]

dunno

[royal tapir]

Because the person who made it realized that it was completely pointless to keep updating it

[keen ore]

[drowsy plank]

shocked

[ornate kestrel]

I never realized how many drops pbg had

[drowsy plank]

@thorn spoke wow! you are really bad at reading rules!

[thorn spoke]

Why

[drowsy plank]

we already had a meme channel once and it was a mistake, which is actually explictly reference in the rules for this channel

furthermore this is. not a channel for server suggestions

this is for suggestions for the mod

[thorn spoke]

I see

[drowsy plank]

you would need to use modmail for server suggestions but also dont because we aren't adding a memes channel

[thorn spoke]

Then add a meme channel with rules

[drowsy plank]

no

[thorn spoke]

Bruh

[lucid marsh]

I really want a slime god town pet... Would be funny

[drowsy plank]

[buoyant idol]

Memes are impossible to moderate. If you want memes, there are other servers for that.

[golden sonnet]

unless they made this mistake before I feel this wording is a bit harsh

[thorn spoke]

Servers with calamity memes?

[fervent orbit]

they posted a meme in gen media...after someone got told off for posting memes

[golden sonnet]

ah, it's a little more waranted then

[buoyant idol]

Still, that doesn't outweigh the massive downsides to a memes channel.

[drowsy plank]

you can just go to the subreddit if you want bad content

[fervent orbit]

and also awful opinions

and factually wrong info

[buoyant idol]

Reasons to not add a memes channel:

1. Memes can border on offensive, not a good look for the server.
2. Memes may take the form of videos that may take a long time to look for rule breaking content
3. This server has over 100,000 people and counting, moderators don't have that sort of time to moderate that many people posting questionable content. Adding onto this, it'd likely become an incredibly active channel which would further pressure the moderator team.
4. Memes may bring up political subjects or invite political memes, best not to bring those sorts of topics into this server regardless of the silent political climate here.
5. The only thing a Memes channel would bring to the server is a new channel for comedy, which we already have and it's called #1042197406776827914. (Update: https://discord.com/channels/225030931008847874/1178515062030348308)
6. As stated above, there is a subreddit for this.
7. Some memes regarding Calamity exist in the pins of channels, which should fulfill that gap.
8. Every moderator is opposed to it.

[drowsy plank]

number 5

[fervent orbit]

why dont we want to add a dedicated channel for calamity mod developer Memes

[wide river]

So ture

[buoyant idol]

That would suffice as a great middleground

[golden sonnet]

so real

[wide river]

A channel that only Memes can speak in
It would be the memes channel

[fervent orbit]

its not wrong tho

[sage yacht]

there is a suggestion for town slimes

[austere citrus]

Murasama change has grown on me already

[lucid marsh]

yes that's what I was reacting to

[novel belfry]

I remember once upon a time, during one April Fools day, the devs actually did a dev-only meme channel

and iirc they only posted egg memes

as in, memes relating to eggs

[wraith hinge]

agreed

oh I see why not understandable

[grim tusk]

My totally-not-green eggs and ham

the shading fucked the photo so bad but it was kinda funny

[fervent orbit]

YOU FOOLS

YOU NEVER REALISED THAT IN MY SUGGESTION FOR INFECTED ARMOUR PLATING

THAT I PUT THE "U" FROM THE PROPER VERSION OF THE SPELLING

MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

BRITAIN WILL INVADE CALAMITY MOD

[odd geyser]

[fervent orbit]

jINEAGVIKNALEKWISDGHBNLIKOASEWDIKLNOHBGNIKOALES

pattt,,,

[odd geyser]

noob when someone sends an emote of someone getting patted

[fervent orbit]

:3

[hybrid steeple]

pat,,,,,,,,,,,

[grim tusk]

Sulphur

And iirc there might be some armour

[fervent orbit]

nah

all spellings of armour in calamity are with the american spelling

[novel belfry]

The U is a letter that exists.

[timber temple]

as an american armour is indeed the correct spelling

[dense locust]

armer

[crude geode]

arm

[dense locust]

no die clothing

[glass arch]

there is a slightly more personal reason as to why i suggested this but im keeping it out of the reasoning because it doesnt further the suggestion and would actually probably get it flagged or denied

[wide river]

Is it no Wall of Flesh%

[north oracle]

it actually might be

that was the big barrier

[glass arch]

no wof or ml%

no wof% is always doable because calclone
no ml% is only doable on gfb
cant do both on gfb

[north oracle]

adding this would allow removing WoF from the low% route in GFB wouldn't it

[glass arch]

actually wait i forgor im pretty sure you can only do no wof% on gfb

[north oracle]

kill only some segments of EoW, not the whole boss

[glass arch]

yea

[north oracle]

in that case i don't like this
We can't have low% requiring a special seed

[glass arch]

i mean

could just say that this is lowest%

[golden sonnet]

I mean, truly optimal low% is abusing bast statue transmutation to go straight to SCal and Exos

so...

[glass arch]

also yeah that

[north oracle]

fine

low% glitchless

[golden sonnet]

still uses fishing glitch to skip 1 mech

[north oracle]

uh

no

iirc

[glass arch]

optimal low% being harder is fine tbh

[north oracle]

i don't

[wide river]

No major exploits category

[north oracle]

yeah

we're going with that

[glass arch]

i honestly havent cared about low% in so long

[wide river]

Skipping early hardmode isn't that much of an exploit
It's still an exploit, but I don't think it's considered "major"

[glass arch]

i only care about no wof% and no ml% nowadays

[stray warren]

@frank viper bruh

your suggestion is just... weird

[crude geode]

You're gonna need actual reasoning, such as the fact that some of the normal hardmode ores are based off of real ores

[stray warren]

^

besides that you should be less specific

[frank viper]

should i add the edit?

[crude geode]

yes

as it stands it's kind of lacking reasoning

[frank viper]

so trim all the fat and add the hardmode ores thing

sounds good

[frank viper]

alright, changed it to be more appealing, and added the other ore thing

[drowsy plank]

this suggestion doesnt make any sense and just feels like all it would do is create confusion; cryonic ore is like magic ice, it's not supposed to be a real metal. not to mention being an original creation, which makes it easier to find when searching for it online. furthermore, at least metals like cobalt were actually used in smithing and alloys, i can't say the same for cryolite. like all this is going to do is create confusion and make an already perfectly serviceable idea worse

[marble cipher]

name changes like this do have costs, and just for it matching up to a real life thing isnt worth the cost of making the players learn a new name. Now if it was really close to the ore in another big mod or was discovered it had negative meaning now or in another language those would make it worth the costs

[dapper apex]

Also lore wise I'm pretty sure Permafrost created cryonic

So it's not a real metal

[hollow shell]

Does that make the sugg invalid?

Or just something you wouldn't star

(I guess I should be asking @royal tapir )

[royal tapir]

All of the suggestion's reasoning either directly contradicts lore or is just generally weak reasoning

[hollow shell]

@frank viper ^

[marble cipher]

and ive done dev work for a game too and have had this issue come up a few times, its usually not worth the disruption to playerbase

[hollow shell]

wish you were around for the Seraph/Celestial Tracers suggestion, then

[fervent orbit]

ok but that had actual reasoning

[drowsy plank]

just something i wouldnt star hence the fact i didnt personally exclaim it, but CIT makes a good point that the reasoning on it is incredibly weak lol

[hollow shell]

He could probably get away with it if he put more emphasis on the ores named after real world materials in Calamity

Namely Scoria Ore and Infernal Suevite
which were previously Chaotic Ore and Charred Ore respectively, until they got renamed to real-world materials in recent years

[drowsy plank]

not getting exclaimed maybe, but it's definetly still just gonna get immediately smacked down in dev so there's almost no point

[novel belfry]

Frigid Cryolite

Although the problem is that cryolite, despite being a real ore, still sounds obviously like a cold substance...

[hollow shell]

Indeed that name's a bit redundant though it does sound very Calamity

[frail mantle]

Scoria is a real thing?

[hollow shell]

Yeah

[frail mantle]

Huh

[fervent orbit]

its a rock

[frail mantle]

News to me

[hollow shell]

It's a volcanic rock
Not really an ore by any means but, creative liberties

[frail mantle]

Ok yeah that explains it

[novel belfry]

i think we need to search for the name of a rocky thing that isn't straight up CRYOLITE

[fervent orbit]

whos to say reworked cryonic wont lean more into the ice part of it

[hollow shell]

iunno if the devs are still aiming to eventually retheme Cryonic to be crystals and not ice
That was a goal for a long time of the older dev team which never got done

[fervent orbit]

its still staying in ice biome afaik and permafrost is canonically the one who invented the alloy

so

i think leaning into the ice part isnt an impossibility

[drowsy plank]

prolly going to move far away from the cryonic name entirely before they change it cryolite lmao

[novel belfry]

Lustrous Cryolite

[wide river]

@unborn delta This would go in #1042197406776827914 btw
(Also I hear it's bugged so that's why it's stupid strong at the moment)

[unborn delta]

oops sorry didn't see this channel, thank you!

[golden sonnet]

It's bugged yeah

Iframe fuckery

[royal tapir]

It's bugged yeah

Fixed next update

[spark ravine]

Allow Shifting Sands to fire a another projectile even if the previous one is active
The Shifting Sands is a post-plantera upgrade to the magic missile that behaves more or less the same as its predecessor. Like the magic missile, letting go of the mouse button while controlling the projectile will have it fly off in whatever direction it happened to be moving in at the time of release. However, the weapon only allows one projectile to be alive at any given time. So if you accidentally let go of the LMB in the middle of a bossfight and it flies off to nowhere, you physically can't use the weapon again until the projectile hits a solid block or despawns. This issue isn't shared by any other weapons of its type, so why should this one?

This good or nah?

[mortal rock]

I think thats a balence sug rather than you're avg sug

[drowsy plank]

does kinda feel like an oversight, bug, or balance thing

[spark ravine]

So, bug report? I guess this counts as an oversight.

[drowsy plank]

yeah considering it's inconsistent with the behvior of similar weapons

[sand marlin]

Weather Pain

[drowsy plank]

what about it...?

[spark ravine]

I mean, you can still fire a new projectile with that one, the previous one just despawns

[modern rapids]

wish there were more magic missle/flamelash type weapons ngl

[drowsy plank]

i have no idea what weather pain has to do with this considering shifting sands is a magic missle upgrade and magic missle does not behave like that

[mortal rock]

there's a mod for that

[spark ravine]

Also, are back-to-back bug reports frowned upon? I just made a different report like ten minutes ago, so I'll wait on posting this one if you're not supposed to do that.

[mortal rock]

I don't think so

it'll be fine as long it's like actually a bug

[golden sonnet]

as long as the issue has not already been reported it's fine

[sand marlin]

Oh it is?

[drowsy plank]

yeah? lmao

[sand marlin]

I thought it was like weather pain nvm I used this thing like once and I barely remember it

[drowsy plank]

lmao

i feel like weather pain honestly shouldn't have that restriction either it's such a bad weapon lmao

[sand marlin]

I don't think that's the issue with weather pain

The issue is it not lasting long enough to be a support weapon on the side and not dealing enough damage

[drowsy plank]

oh i mean prolly not but it certainly isn't helping

[sand marlin]

Because obviously if they took that route they wouldn't suddenly revert back to a normal weapon type

[novel belfry]

wait, the shifting sands doesnt home into enemies when released like the magic missile post 1.4?

[spark ravine]

nope, still like the pre-1.4 magic missile

[small bramble]

wtf does 🗜️ mean again

[fervent orbit]

incorrect formatting

[flat cipher]

Incorrect formatting. Your emboldened sentence is your title, correct? If so, go back to it, edit the message, place your cursor just after the emboldened sentence, and hold shit and hit enter to insert a linebreak.

[fervent orbit]

they didnt make a sugg

[flat cipher]

I am a derp.

[frank viper]

Didn't think about it like that, its way better reasoning then what I came up with

[drowsy plank]

@unborn delta you know you could've just deleted the message instead of editing in "sorry wrong place", right...? i did it for you but just for future reference lmfao

[unborn delta]

yes sorry I couldn't find the correct channel so i choose the easy way

[proper granite]

momentum capacitor is a lot of fun but it kind of renders minecarts and teleporters and also pylons kind of redundant the moment it becomes available

im torn about it, its QoL and by post mechs you have mechanical cart and stuff as well but in my runs i just use capacitor and ignore everything else because its so strong

[small timber]

the point of pylons is that it is usable pre-HM

the point of teleporters is that it is not limited to purely horizontal movement

the point of minecarts is, uhhh, the minecart track is useful for arena creation (and incredibly annoying when you accidentally pressed R during a fight)

[proper granite]

i dont know man, i guess i just yearn for the Sky Rail™️ like in old 1.3 days

i know calamity makes redundant a lot of stuff for QoL purposes but in the case of transportation theres so much stuff terraria has in this regard thats made redundant by having mechanical cart speed whenever you want

like mounts

[proper granite]

u can also abuse the mole cart to dig huge rail tunnels for you after you get the mechanical cart upgrade

[proper granite]

in particular, the unicorn, wolf, and mourning wood mounts

[modern rapids]

which is perfect for finding the vernal pass and temple
makes sense in progression

[wintry gale]

kid named teleporter...

[wide river]

#suggestions-posting message Ah yes
ChangeChange

[buoyant idol]

Wants it changed twice, where a solution is implemented and swapped out in the next update.

[brisk linden]

I want more spears

[fervent orbit]

youre gonna need some more reasoning

[sand marlin]

^

You're gonna need reasoning that is beneficial to the mod

And why it's necessary

Subclass only playthrough is a pretty weak reasoning

[brisk linden]

fair enough

[rugged juniper]

Mb

But please

My eyes hurt

😦

[sand marlin]

It's a good sugg tbh

[drowsy plank]

it's so good i feel like i already saw something like this pass once before but i can't find it so w/e

[brisk linden]

there it is

[wide river]

#suggestions-voting message
#suggestions-voting message
#suggestions-voting message
Maybe not passed but suggested before at the least

[fervent orbit]

because its been in voting 3 times alr, but barely didnt get in

[brisk linden]

now my more spears suggestion has evolved

[drowsy plank]

@brisk linden this is just an elaborate #1042197406776827914 post lmao

[brisk linden]

oh

[fervent orbit]

ya

[brisk linden]

but it also contains the suggestion to maybe make more spears?

[fervent orbit]

attempt not to make your reasoning balance

[drowsy plank]

that's

no

[fervent orbit]

if balance is an issue bring it up to #1042197406776827914

[brisk linden]

fair enough

[fervent orbit]

you can break down the issue a bit

[brisk linden]

I don't have topics enabled so I hadn't seen that there was a balance suggestions thingy

thats on me

[fervent orbit]

the main issue is that there are very few spear type weapons
you brought up the ratio of swords to spears
you can mention how swords are usually more bland and harder to work with
then you can propose a solution: rework certain swords that have little chance of being unique to be made into spears

[grim tusk]

@next hedge @unborn verge suggestions do not go in the bugs forum

[unborn verge]

I'm sorry, we didn't know that channel was on.

[novel belfry]

Brimstone’s an older name for sulfur

[wide river]

(The issue you were mentioning there is currently a suggestion in #suggestions-voting too, you could vote for that if you want)

[unborn verge]

okey

[novel belfry]

Apparently burning sulfur actually glows blue, which occasionally gets mistaken for blue lava

Wouldn’t it be interesting if the brimstone crags were colored like

[flint notch]

Stained Brutal Calamity: Lament

[wide river]

While yes, that's a really nice color scheme
I don't think we need another blue biome

We've got Abyss (blue-black), Sunken Sea (blue-green), Mushrooms (bright blue), and Tundra (blue-white)

[grim tusk]

And brimstone is usually represented as red

[grim tusk]

Although rav does make a nod towards this

[novel belfry]

I was thinking about it after hearing about this

Calamitas should probably not change to blue, she’s distinctly red magic and that should stick

[novel belfry]

But anyways yeah that’s a good counterpoint

[north oracle]

and while it's being renamed, it could be reworked to be a more interesting weapon!

[glass arch]

consider: the glassius™️ style

[dense locust]

puppet is
okay
you can't really change the weapons function without making it either completely dogshit or completely broken

[north oracle]

puppet is unbelievably boring

it's literally just a mage weapon

[dense locust]

there are worse weapons out there

[north oracle]

and not even an interesting mage weapon

[glass arch]

yeah no puppet is extremely boring the only thing it has going for it is the glassius style

and thats because of an exploit from an extra mod

[grim tusk]

Tbh it could easily be reworked into a mage weapon imo

Maybe something like LobCorp cherry blossoms

But its slime

[north oracle]

it's a cool thing to have as an alternative to whips

a longer ranged option that's less risky

[grim tusk]

But rn its just a mage weapon

[north oracle]

but it could at least be somewhat interesting

[grim tusk]

There was a plan for Borealis bomber to fit summoner more

So it doesnt have this same issue

[north oracle]

cinders are cool
cnidarion is pretty cool
puppet and bomber are boring as fuck

[flint notch]

Fan that blows your summons away

This helps you how?

[dense locust]

could make it more like that one acid rain sentry that just fucking explodes

[flint notch]

Idk I’m not a balance nerd

[north oracle]

caustic croaker is cool

[north oracle]

helps them actually attack

[flint notch]

TRUE

Brute force your summons into working

[wide river]

How to get pre-Hardmode summons to do jackshit

Honestly Slime Puppet Staff isn't the only one that probably needs a rename/rework after the resprites
But that can come later I assume

Also
@glass arch Minor typo: Slime Puppet Staff was resprited in version 2.0.3.007, not 2.1.3.007

2.1.3.007 isn't even a version yet

[drowsy plank]

@sharp furnace reversion, also this feels like something that belongs in #1042197406776827914 more, and also like. yes. that is the point. the original version of defense damage was such a fucking pushover that even the problem it was trying to solve didn't get solved (facetanking) because dedicated tank builds could just hard ignore it, while middle of the road builds took the brunt of the punishment. the point WAS to make it much more penalizing

[fervent orbit]

i love it when old defence damage hurt glass cannons thousands times more than tanks ever did

[glass arch]

oh god dammit

[glass arch]

cant get hurt by defense damage if you die in 1 hit

[sharp furnace]

I see, should I move it to balance?

But a 3.71 increase is straight up ridiculous, and it continues to stack.

[drowsy plank]

it's not

[glass arch]

its not

[drowsy plank]

it was really just that bad

[glass arch]

old defense damage punished glass cannons and middle of the road builds thousands of times more than it did tank builds, the thing it was designed to nerf

[sharp furnace]

I feel that is refusing to acknowledge that some builds have to risk getting hit and it's punishing those who choose to try to have any sort of risk and reward. If I get hit and get instantly killed by the second hit, even using a weapon which isn't that good but one of my few good options. Than the only good options ever is mage isn't it?

[glass arch]

no

[fervent orbit]

what???

[drowsy plank]

[sharp furnace]

Okay look I structured that poorly, I'd have to think about it alot more but the idea is that Rover Drive and Sponge are the only way to "Tank" anymore.

[glass arch]

they are absolutely not

[sharp furnace]

I'm saying that maybe 22% would be better.

3.71 is alot.

[glass arch]

like

new cotbg is batshit
rampart is still batshit
name a defensive acessory and its probably good

[drowsy plank]

"rover drive and sponge are the only way to tank" i mean if your definition of tank is stand inside of the boss while not moving maybe

[flint notch]

Shackle.

[fervent orbit]

have u seen how fast the recovery is? the point is to punish FACEtanking (lets ignore that they literally introduced an accessory to facetank viably)

[sharp furnace]

What does tank mean?

[glass arch]

take hits

not to stand still and not die

[north oracle]

you just can't tank by stacking 1000 defense and mitigating everything as effectively anymore

[drowsy plank]

a build that can take a lot of hits??? you still need to move and like. engage with the game. actually try and dodge at least a little bit

[glass arch]

having a tanky build just means you can take more damage, not that you can just stop interacting with the game

[fervent orbit]

instead u stack life regen with chalice now!

[north oracle]

true

[sharp furnace]

Yeah. That's a fun one.

[dense locust]

chalice does not make sense to me

[sharp furnace]

Chalice is straight up bad, no way to fucking see anything on it and I can't easily tell how much Bleed I have to worry about

[dense locust]

the way I understand is "if you drink a potion right after getting hit you essentially take half as much damage"

[drowsy plank]

ds;zg lkdpmvkphjysdklhg

[glass arch]

you are so fucking wrong

[sharp furnace]

Yeah I know

[fervent orbit]

@frosty trellis

[north oracle]

chailce is incredibly strong lmfao

[sharp furnace]

It's a visual thing.

[drowsy plank]

im sorry i legitimately cannot take your defense damage suggestion seriously if you're going to unironically say that

[flint notch]

I foresaw an mpg ping.,.,.,

[sharp furnace]

No no I mean visually mechanically most of the people I've played with all say they don't like it.

[glass arch]

chalice let mpg beat yharon WITHOUT MOVING AN INCH

[sharp furnace]

It's not that it's bad.

[drowsy plank]

ah

[sharp furnace]

It's "bad"

[north oracle]

i mean enforcer helped with that

but yeah

[novel belfry]

okay how does Chalice's damage drain effect help the player?

[glass arch]

regen builds.

[golden sonnet]

Regen cancels out the DoT

[sharp furnace]

Literally regen builds are the meta now fuck everything else. which isn't much better.

[north oracle]

if you take the damage over 5 seconds, you get 5 seconds of regen before it kills you

[fervent orbit]

just look at how fast ur hp drains?

[sharp furnace]

To my understanding I need more practice with it.

[drowsy plank]

delays the damage you take so regen can outpace it, plus i think since it isn't a debuff it doesn't actually reduce your natural life regen or penalize you like you normally would be for taking hits?

[frosty trellis]

Yeah uh
It's not bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqXLDQO3fs0&lc=UgwiMS4KwaJUvCAWi114AaABAg

[drowsy plank]

that's not bad then, that's just something someone should write a suggestion about; add some kind of counter or indicator for how much damage chalice has built up so it's easier to track

[frosty trellis]

Yeah it doesn't reduce your natural life regen which is HUGE

Hell chalice is OVERTUNED

Like, massively overtuned

[sharp furnace]

Chalice is abit silly.

[frosty trellis]

Potions should not halve the dot you take

[drowsy plank]

just a tad

[frosty trellis]

From chalice

[sharp furnace]

The Dot not having a visual besides "Red thing come out of me" when I'm fighting yharon and everything is red is silly.

[novel belfry]

so what you're saying is, defense damage got even worse to prevent face-tanking, only for chalice to show up and create the facetank set to end all facetank sets?

[north oracle]

sounds about right

[flint notch]

I think something over your hearts could be cool

[sharp furnace]

I really do feel that I'm bad at explaining the problem here. But it's silly? Like for instant I got hit once by Yharon with my friends playing and got -152 in one hit.

[frosty trellis]

Yeah pretty much
Chalice is affected by def damage since you are taking more bleed from more damage especially if it stacks up
But one healing potion to remove half the dot and it's a non-issue

[sharp furnace]

Which just means when Chalice is nerfed once again we'll be back to where we started.

[frosty trellis]

Not really

Removing the potion thing makes it balanced not bad

[north oracle]

with facetank builds no longer being totally broken

[sharp furnace]

I mean wouldn't giving us back the half contact 20 sec not be bad either?

[frosty trellis]

That seems

Like

Not necessary

At all

[novel belfry]

yeah, this patch really was "Fuck Yharon Specifically"
move the murasama to post-DoG so players can destroy Yharon with the red sword of mgrr and also give the most facetanky set of them all

[frosty trellis]

Should the potion thing halving the blood taken get removed it will become a much more balanced accessory and a sidegrade option to how you take damage

[glass arch]

yharon takes a while to kill with mura

[dense locust]

dont forget enforcer being funny

[frosty trellis]

Enforcer is a bug yeah

[sharp furnace]

True.

[flint notch]

Reliving the deific era one step at a time 😊

[north oracle]

murasama isn't even op on yharon

[frosty trellis]

Mura is getting a bit of a buff iirc

[novel belfry]

how the fuck did someone kill yharon with mura in one minute

[north oracle]

god slayer thorns + godmode

[glass arch]

a bug with godslayer armor

[frosty trellis]

Hero's mod godmode bug

[dense locust]

cog is so real for this suggestion

[drowsy plank]

okay no one did it so i did it myself

[north oracle]

you have to not use godmode or not sit on his hitbox for yharon testing

[drowsy plank]

that should help new people who want to use it

[dense locust]

oh right I just remembered I had a suggestion to make

[frosty trellis]

Def damage was changed to prevent facetanking with regular builds
They just kinda made chalice a bit strong lol

[sharp furnace]

Your a hero. But still would it really be that bad? at 2.5 or even 2? I'll have to make a graph. Defense damage.

[frosty trellis]

Looking at the def damage sugg

Def damage before the change hurt glass and balanced builds WAY more than tank builds, it was almost negligable until like fucking dog for tank builds

[drowsy plank]

making a diagram would certainly help your case, might be worth getting some actual examples of when it could really be as bad as you're making it out to be to make your point as well

[frosty trellis]

And even post dog it really didn't end up doing much, hence the legendary clips of me facetanking BLENDER and SCal's BH5

[sharp furnace]

Sorry my brain is supa fried, I finished my data structs final and making this argument is making my head spin. I understand what you mean and I get it. Maybe I'm just silly.

[drowsy plank]

blender tank is so fucking silly

[sharp furnace]

I think I'm understanding what you mean. It clicked. I understand I may have been thinking about it wrong.

[frosty trellis]

Probably still more than possible

Idk about scal bh5 even with chalice the blood you take from the moons is gonna be ridiculous

[rugged juniper]

Yeah i have been trying lmao

[sharp furnace]

10% of damage taken would hurt anyone but take builds. I think I was mistaken.

However now I will simply run Eldritch Soul-

[north oracle]

[sharp furnace]

I get the vision now.

FINE

I'LL MAKE THE ALGOTHRIM MYSELF

[drowsy plank]

ESA when it when you hwen

[frosty trellis]

Who tf uses ESA in this day and age has that shit even been reworked?

[sharp furnace]

Thanks for giving me a better understanding of what I need to do and what should be brought up.

[glass arch]

no its still a stat stick

[sharp furnace]

IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO GET MELEE SPEED LEAVE ME AL-

[north oracle]

just gauntlet stack

[frosty trellis]

Removed

That was fixed

[sharp furnace]

Thanks for giving me a better perspective of the current changes.

[drowsy plank]

gauntlet stacking being dead

[sharp furnace]

Yup

Another L for melee- This is a bait

[frosty trellis]

L for melee? It's a balance fix lol

[drowsy plank]

implying anything could stop melee

[frosty trellis]

Gauntlet Stacking was BROKEN

[sharp furnace]

Never did it lol

[frosty trellis]

Melee is never gonna stop yeah

[novel belfry]

yharim's insignia disappearing tho

[sharp furnace]

Never really needed it

[frosty trellis]

Makes no difference because of badge of bravery

[sharp furnace]

So the changed didn't change much for me.

[north oracle]

Insig disappearing is meaningless

It was always mid

[sharp furnace]

Or banner

[novel belfry]

i mean, at least the replacement is an upgrade to the soaring insignia that calamity nerfed

[drowsy plank]

ascendant insignia my beloved

[novel belfry]

and also Warbanner of the Sun

[frosty trellis]

Ascendant Insig is amazing

[north oracle]

It's probably really really good for movement

[sharp furnace]

I wish I liked it.

[frosty trellis]

A much more interesting movement accessory

[north oracle]

4 seconds of infinite flight

[sharp furnace]

But ya know me I like holding still or something.

[drowsy plank]

oh right did we ever find out if it refreshed your wing time or not

[frosty trellis]

Elysian Tracers finally viable

[north oracle]

Impossible

[fervent orbit]

they buffed soarings flight time then let u get inf flight that also restores ur flight entirely

[north oracle]

lo

[sharp furnace]

It does.

Nah I really understand the damage defense thing now. I still do think it's far too much but I'll put that in my argument.

I'mma pull out the calculator.

[frosty trellis]

Wait with ascendant we can probably go from the bottom to the top of a large world with one meter of flight

[north oracle]

Yes

[sharp furnace]

Yeah

"Mid"

[frosty trellis]

It's fine lol
Back when it was 10% it was absolutely meaningless
33% makes it actually do something

[fervent orbit]

i dont see why not

with drews it gives u like

uhhh

a lot

didnt we do halfway with max stuff?

[sharp furnace]

It's also to make it so it isn't so bad for people who take tons of damage, which means glass cannon is still a glass cannon. I know understand the vision, but I think it needs to be refined since it forces people to confine to one playstyle. Dodge or die. Facetank and die should also be accounted for, but it should be calculated in a way that isn't punishing one group of people more than another if that makes sense.

People do have different playstyles and punishing one and helping another is something that must happen here but it cna be worked on and refined to be good for both sides of the party.

End all be all. I'll try to make a strong case to support my side, but also am now open to the understanding that you should not facetank and do a little emote on a man.

[frosty trellis]

The change makes defense damage actually affect tank builds more rather than glass cannon builds more since it's proportional to what you SHOULD'VE taken rather than just 10% of your defense per hit

Which means glass cannon builds take significantly LESS defense damage than tank builds now

So it's no longer punishing towards glass playstyles like it was intended

[glass arch]

and its not like you cant facetank
you just have to be a lot more involved with it than sit still and afk

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

[sharp furnace]

Agreed. As I've said already thank you for letting me get a better understanding. I still think the defense change is WAY TO MUCH.

[frosty trellis]

And I can personally attest with A TON of experience that the previous system still let me just sit there and basically do nothing

[sharp furnace]

BUT

Agreed.

[sharp furnace]

Yeah same. but sometimes I just wanna facetank a man and get my burger.

Also doesn't matter I lag so hard, I lag tank so.

[frosty trellis]

Which just isn't how calamity is designed defense damage is in place for that reason

[sharp furnace]

Lag tanking meta.

[sharp furnace]

True! Defense damage is supposed to be like "Move fuck head and try to dodge." I think that the changes are making sense.

[glass arch]

holy run-on sentence

[sharp furnace]

LEAVE ME ALONE I'M PLAYING CALAMITY GLASS.

[north oracle]

Yeah, defense damage is "stop standing still"

[sharp furnace]

:cryingpissingscreaming:

[glass arch]

no im talking about the new sugg

[dense locust]

I think he's refering to my sugg

lmao

I can grammar I swear

[frosty trellis]

Defense damage is "don't stand still" basically
You can still tank but facetanking is not suppost to be a thing

[dense locust]

okay there we go

[wide river]

Something stupid like that yea

[sharp furnace]

Yeah but I also had a friend that loved the old bloodcore, but just dropped chalice since he really didn't like the changes. Than dropped trying to tank all together since the defense damage was starting to annoy him. He wasn't holding still, he was just playing to the best of his ability and he felt like running it was punishing him.

(That being said he dropped chalice since he felt it was "useless." which is uh.)

[north oracle]

The old one was kinda boring and worse than all the other tank accs lol

[frosty trellis]

It only feels punishing if you are actively trying to facetank often

Yeah core of the blood god kinda fucking sucked

Arguably worse than affliction at times

[sharp furnace]

I kinda liked it tbh.

[glass arch]

cotbg had one (1) thing (afaik) that made it worth
the increased health from potions

[dense locust]

2

[sharp furnace]

YEAHHH

[dense locust]

flesh totem effect is still good

[frosty trellis]

Which new blood pact is better at and gives more max hp

The flesh totem thing was hotswappable regardless

[dense locust]

fair

[north oracle]

And the increased health from potions was worse than even mediocre sponge use

[sharp furnace]

Sponge is the thing ever now.

[dense locust]

Sponge is.

[sharp furnace]

Anyway I'll work on it tonight. I hope you guys will enjoy me being objectively in the wrong and cringe.

[grim tusk]

Flesh totem effect was goated too

[north oracle]

@astral whale you're going to need some reasoning for that suggestion

[wide river]

Pretty sure it's on Dungeon side for lore reasons + compatibility with Thorium, no?

[north oracle]

Ye

[glass arch]

yes

[fervent orbit]

^

[dense locust]

I was under the impression that aquatic depths was on jungle side to be compatible with calamity, though that could easily be wrong

[fervent orbit]

the only other content mod calamity technically supports

iirc

[glass arch]

cal has thorium compat with planter boxes in the big planetoid, no?

[wide river]

Fairly certain yes

[drowsy plank]

yeah

[fervent orbit]

i think so?

also has compatibility with gemstone thingies

[dense locust]

I think theres also that one thing with magic storage but I could also be extordinarilly missinformed

[fervent orbit]

whcih thing?

shadow diamonds?

[wide river]

(Magic Storage isn't really a content mod though)

(Unless the definition of content mod is "mod that adds content")

[dense locust]

might not be a thing now, but at one point it was possible to use cosmilite as a substitute material for the final tier of storage upgrades

[fervent orbit]

ive never seen such a thing

[wide river]

Oh yeah that's been removed iirc

[errant cradle]

That sounds like something Magic Storage would implement on their end

[dense locust]

I see

[errant cradle]

Not Cal

[wide river]

It was in 1.3.5.3 but the port got rid of it

[dense locust]

thought that to, hence why I was unsure

[fervent orbit]

that explains it, i wasnt part of 1.3 era

[errant cradle]

If it was Cal then that's definitely interesting

Never saw it from the few pts I did

[wide river]

I think it was a Magic Storage-side thing

Since I saw it on the Magic Storage section of terrariamods.wiki.gg but the Calamity Wiki has no mention of it

[errant cradle]

@astral whale Abyss eating the Dungeon is a bug and isn't intended to happen at the moment. The devs are hopefully working on a fix for it in a later update

[wide river]

That is quite some formatting

[errant cradle]

Gonna assume they're on mobile

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Byeah Dungeon getting consumed isn't an intended feature, so in reality this suggestion doesn't have much reason to exist

[north oracle]

If that's the only reasoning lmao

[fervent orbit]

also isnt abyss swallowing exclusive to infernum? iirc the 1.4.4 for some reason changed dungeon gen behaviour to be too close to abyss and inf abyss is much more wide

[north oracle]

No

It's not at all inf exclusive

[errant cradle]

I think I've seen it happen with Base Cal as well

[north oracle]

Just more common with inf

[errant cradle]

Yeah ^

[fervent orbit]

ive never seen it with base cal

[wide river]

Recent patch removed the dungeon placement code iirc so now it happens more frequently until it's fixed

Or something like that

[fervent orbit]

o

[golden sonnet]

no, they fixed it before the patch came out

it should be 100% fixed now

[fervent orbit]

??

mixed reports

[golden sonnet]

the message was edited

[north oracle]

Actually yeah

[golden sonnet]

that is why

[north oracle]

It should've been fixed?

[fervent orbit]

oh

[errant cradle]

oh

101 - Removed the "New Dungeon" generation and replaced it with several IL edits that fix it. - Done ✅

I totally missed that lmao

[wide river]

Ye

I misunderstood that line

[north oracle]

I did see that being talked about

[fervent orbit]

wait wat about inf?

[golden sonnet]

inf still has issues

[fervent orbit]

so i was still correct

[errant cradle]

If its still happening on their end then that's for them to figure out

[north oracle]

Inf should now be able to fix it lol

[errant cradle]

No you weren't

smh

🙄

[wide river]

This is like the equivalent of a reaction

[north oracle]

Small clueless

[fervent orbit]

yall tried attacking me for being wrong when i was right

😭

[wide river]

Clueless's little brother

[fervent orbit]

even a mod dogpiled on me

smh

calmain has seriously gone downhill

[dense locust]

they say, having joined only a year and a half ago

[north oracle]

Lmfao

[fervent orbit]

and that makes me unable to have an opinion?

[dense locust]

no

please point to the place in my sentance where I said that

[north oracle]

It just makes your opinion invalid iir

[fervent orbit]

im going to invalidate your life

[errant cradle]

(This is off-topic)

[wide river]

#suggestions-posting message
It can do this?

[dense locust]

yes

[errant cradle]

Yeah

I think I had that happen during a nohit

[dense locust]

that is

unlucky

[wide river]

Huh
I don't think I've ever had it happen but maybe that's just my playstyle

[dense locust]

I had it happen to me when I was testing a broken weapon and I was half convinced I just imagined it until I went back to make sure it happened for the sugg

[worldly sparrow]

isnt this planned?

[wide river]

A Demonshade rework is planned yes

I don't remember the specifics (or if it's even still the case) but it'll have a couple different helmets

Though, I much prefer Demonshade's current state to yet another 5-helmet armor set

[golden sonnet]

I think the rework is only gonna have 2 iirc

[wide river]

(I guess I should do something)

@inner cliff You'll need some reasoning as to why this should be implemented. For example, you should be able to answer questions like "Why is this better than the current implementation?", "Why does it need to happen?", and "Does it need to be like this and not another change?"

[golden sonnet]

it's also confirmed to be in plans, so suggesting it will do nothing

[inner cliff]

Oh ok

[glass arch]

3

[golden sonnet]

that sounds more right

[glass arch]

melee/the dead melee
ranged/rogue
hage/summoner

[golden sonnet]

hage

[glass arch]

im not wrong

:lo:

[inner cliff]

Hage

[grim tusk]

:devplans:

[olive saddle]

yes, for one single frame during its spawning animation it can hit you if you stand on it

you can also hit it if you're super lucky but that doesnt mean aynthging

probably a technical issue or something unavoidable but who knows.

[sharp furnace]

@drowsy plank Would you even bother with this?

I'm still working on all the other classes

Recording this data is pretty hard/annoying.

Im basically asking if you'd even bother reading this if you were a dev

[drowsy plank]

it still looks a bit disorganized from my perspective but it is also midnight so im not going to call anything rn bc im exhausted

[sharp furnace]

I tried my best, I'll post it another time when it's finished. Sorry for bothering you. Have a good rest.

[drowsy plank]

thanks

[sharp furnace]

FUCK YEAH MY DATA IS COMING TOGETHER

[sand marlin]

This is 0.3.6

[small timber]

I dont really get the point that the data is meant to make

the intention of the new defense damage is literally to nerf tank build (particularly face tank)

so it is meant to be harsher than before; it is not supposed to be "close to the original number"
the question is should it be a 3.71 times multiplier than before, or a 3.01 times multiplier

the tldr is previous DD system was basically way too weak to punish tank build properly, while cripples any low defense build

new DD punish both type of build equally

and tank build still have 1 massive advantage: the first hit you take is not subject to defense damage (because you haven't take defense damage), so you still mitigated a large part of the damage

the only thing you cant do as a tank is to take a bunch of hit in a row without letting defense regen (which is the point of DD) (unless on some busted synergy like iframe/COTBG etc)

[sand marlin]

The way to go with tank now is not to facetank and to space hits as much as possible which makes sense and actually requires effort to perform

A lot of the new variety of tank items synergize with this just as well

I must say the BfC was just straight up buffed as now if you play that style you only heal more and no less

And it was already kind of broken

[small timber]

if you want an even more tldr:

defense used to be underwhelming in cal due to massively inflated enemy damage number (eg: warding used to stay 4 defense)

cal buffed defense across the board so that tank become much more viable, and implemented defense damage to counteract face tanking, while making tank build in general (aka you are still dodging attacks but can take more hits through defense) much much better

defense damage end up didn't do its job because it was too weak to hurt the defense of tank build enough, while cripples anything with low defense by making them practically have 0

defense damage is buffed (or you can say, player is nerfed); it now hurts tank build more and hurt low defense build less

defense damage is not a "punish mechanic", it is a compensation mechanic for allowing defense to be buffed massively, otherwise we will not be allowed to have any accessory having more than 15 defense at post-yharon level

[serene vapor]

Did I do everything right for my suggestion? There were a lot of rules and I might’ve forgotten one

[hollow shell]

Oh, yeah, this is just an oversight.

If true.

[serene vapor]

The wiki said so, if it was fixed then my bad

[hollow shell]

It's possible it was fixed and the wiki has not updated yet

Someone will have to check

Okay I just checked
The resistance still exists, the wiki is accurate about that and thus this suggestion is valid.

[serene vapor]

Thanks

[sharp furnace]

While I understand, the purpose. The data is to showcase the difference. Both are equally punished to a point that a 4th hit would instantly kill you. I also have someone who ran the numbers. 3.0 is much better than 3.71 it means both could survive a 4th hit.

This change discourages running defense. While I understand that you might disagree, I've had 3 others who play frequently feel this way. I know in practice it's for the better but "punishing" survivability this harshly doesn't feel good.

Melee already had up to 3 good accessories. All their main ones can be used by everyone. You could probably prove me wrong, but my point stands that this would discourage the average player.

People do just hop in expecting to play a cool and interesting mod. I get it. I really get the intent. But I don't want a game state where the only way to get better is tell someone "Dodge better.". Look

I love this mod. I've played it alot. I've done glue eating facetank as a joke. It's not a good play style. Nor did I care for it.

When you become a "Tank". You should be sacrificing damage. But you aren't, because melee has few options to increase damage. There is no encourgement to running anything other than Tank.

I know y'all will disagree. Maybe I've been playing wrong. But look at class setup, tell me you feel there's plenty of choices. Most are left out.

I feel bad even trying to say anything about this tbh. I feel like my opinion is wrong beyond belief. But my friends are starting to feel bad playing.

I don't know, but I know this data helps to understand the core problems.

To let people understand how much the difference really is with real builds.

I wish I had a better argument but I'm more a passionate speaker than a good arguer.

[sharp furnace]

Yeah it was in the changelogs.

[sand marlin]

You can always lower difficulty if you have trouble adjusting to higher ones

Based on the very same data you gathered I don't think you die to most hits in less than 5 in a row anyway that sounds like it would be from a strong attack which you should naturally not be getting hit by a lot

And the game is balanced around expert rev for the most part

[sharp furnace]

Calam Clone
Master mode
vs 142 def

brimstone dart base damage = 176
1st hit 176-142=34 dmg, 47.3 DD, def= 94.7 round up?
2nd hit 176-95= 81 dmg, 27 DD, def= 68
3rd hit 176-68= 108 dmg, 22.6 DD, def 45
4th hit 176-45= 131 dmg, 15 DD, def 30
total dmg= 354

vs 94 def
1st hit 176-94= 82 dmg, 31.3 DD, def= 63
2nd hit 176-63= 113 dmg, 21 DD, def=42
3rd hit 176-42= 134 dmg, 14 DD, def=28
4th hit 176-28= 148 dmg, 9.3 DD, def=19
total dmg = 477

[sand marlin]

"Master mode"

[sharp furnace]

It was done by hand 100% def was easier to cal for.

[hollow shell]

The issue I have with your suggestion is just that it only focuses on the way Defense Damage was changed and not how it currently feels in-game or affects your playstyle.

It looks like you just saw the number go higher and you're assuming that defense has just been invalidated, when I have reason to believe that Defense Damage is not as strong as you think it is even with this change.

[sand marlin]

I understand the thought process but it's just not what's worked around

Plus you are ignoring a lot of other calcs like dr or dodges and health bonuses you might get from certain gear

[sharp furnace]

Maybe your right, while I was testing I kinda slowly began to feel that. But that's not fair, due to me just finishing a Zenith Legendary Rev playthrough. Of course it doesn't feel like much to me.

But to a new player? Someone who got roped in by a friend?

I dunno, I think you guys are right but part of me just doesn't want that to scare off players ya know? I think the change is good great.

[sand marlin]

Remember that this is always an option

[sharp furnace]

They never learn, once I tell them "Unique AI" they get excited to see it.

[hollow shell]

ok here I'll let you in on the secret
Defense Damage current regenerates way faster than it is intended to, even after this change. It's suppose to not regenerate during i-frames, but right now it does.
Thus is actually really hard for you to take damage multiple times in a row such that you actually do get hit during the peak of your Defense Damage

[sharp furnace]

I actually noticed this during testing!

[hollow shell]

I imagine a lot of people would notice if they test it extensively yeah

The devs are aware of the issue but they're debating among themselves on the best course of action to fix it

[sharp furnace]

Getting hit 3 times in a row is actually hard tbh. Without it regening.

As funny as that is against my argument

[sand marlin]

Best convince them so they don't get into a situation where they want to do something but only feel worse for doing it

Or you know, you can just roll with it

Raw experience is best

[sharp furnace]

I wish it was that easy tbh.

[sand marlin]

No matter how they feel

It might suck at one point but it won't always stay that way

[sharp furnace]

They had fun before, but recently I dunno they're upset about the changes so it gets me rallyed.

[hollow shell]

I do think your argument about it being too easy to run a tank build while still having great damage, does have merit

Maybe some strong tank accessories should have a trade-off DPS penalty built into them, and vice versa.

However I am not a tester and it's actually been a long time since I played the mod at all so

[sharp furnace]

Hah, that's alright Rover. You've made me feel better about talking about this.

[sand marlin]

DPS penalty on a tank item is a really bad idea

I'm sorry but like that won't ever really work out for a tank item

[sharp furnace]

I feel that is the problem.

[frosty trellis]

Yeah it's kinda unnecessary

It would not matter if chalice of the blood god reduced your damage by 25% it would still not fix the issue that accessory is completely overpowered lmao

[sharp furnace]

You know chalice is going to get fricked(sorry) right and it's post devourer. So what about before devourer.

[sand marlin]

Thorium's abyssal shell is not combat viable and Infernum's Brimstone Crescent Staff is only worth it on desparation phases. These are extremely unused items outside of their specific niches of bringing a great benefit whenever you're not in combat

[frosty trellis]

Before devourer even pre chalice days was like a joke besides devourer himself with a proper tank build

I'll go open tmod to prove it what boss do you want me to try it on I'll do expert-rev since that's what the mod is balanced around byeah

[sand marlin]

It would just be bringing another problem
Why even use a dps penalty if you have a proper balance

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

[sharp furnace]

Play Plantera poorly. I'm talking like your first time doing calamity rev bad. Your good at the game that isn't my argument.

[hollow shell]

That actually sounds like a good sign to me
And kinda runs counter to the argument MPG just proposed with Chalice

It is possible to over-nerf a strong tank item with DPS penalties without harming its tanking function, such that it is still super tanky but people won't use it because the hit to your DPS sucks that hard

[sand marlin]

Tank items do trade in damage for using up slots. Not the major kind since those slots are already used but some nonetheless

There is also the fact that you could be using mobility instead

[frosty trellis]

Sure I'll play plant bad it's been reworked recently I don't have much experience with the new plant I'll go grab a tank build and see how it goes

[sharp furnace]

You'll still kick it's ass tbh lol. You are the master go get 'em

I'd have to blindfold you to play poorly.

[frosty trellis]

I can do rev+ plant but I'll grab a tank build and intentionally get hit a lot

[sharp furnace]

Tell me her numbers!!!

[frosty trellis]

See how a modern tank build fairs

[sharp furnace]

Also wouldn't the fix just give us more options for offensive tools? So we might decide how we want to do stuff?

[frosty trellis]

Again it will be done on expert rev since not only is that what the mod is balanced around but I don't feel like making a new arena in master

[sharp furnace]

Master is it's own thing. You could use Dragons lens to change difficulty it's what I was doing.

[frosty trellis]

I mean ig

[hollow shell]

If Chalice of the Blood God reduced your DPS by 99.99%, do you think people would still use it?
Even if they can survive a lot of hits, is it worth it for having the fight take 2 hours?

(if you can Luigi% facetank with Chalice and not even have to worry about the boss's attacks at all, then yeah that's a problem cuz then the 2 hours is just waiting
But if you do still have to kinda avoid getting hit, then they do have to kinda try for 2 hours straight. Hyperbolically speaking.)

[sharp furnace]

But a new person to calamity probably doing Expert since ya know.

[sharp furnace]

I think someone would call it op somehow.

[sand marlin]

Luigi%

[sand marlin]

If it doesn't pause cooldowns it'd be no less broken

And life regen

[sharp furnace]

2 hour fight???

Response????

[sand marlin]

Nah, you can just take it off when you have these back up

Bleeding does immediately take effect but

It did its job already

So it doesn't matter

You have your shit back up

Ready for action

[hollow shell]

Is Chalice's OP-ness currently powered by an exploit?

[sand marlin]

That I don't know

[sharp furnace]

It's just alot of effects.

[sand marlin]

I've been avoiding testing it since I'm not particularly fond of it personally

[sharp furnace]

That's literally what everyone's says.

[serene vapor]

So, I saw something about a balance discussion thread in the guide for suggestions posting

Where is it?

[hollow shell]

#1042197406776827914

[sharp furnace]

Everyone says "OP" but doesn't like using it.

[serene vapor]

Thanks

[hollow shell]

👍

This convo may actually be more appropriate for that thread
but I've always been unsure if it's supposed to be for weapons only

[sand marlin]

It's only been proved to be op for one thing currently which is facetanking yharon with extremely specific strats and loadout

[sharp furnace]

I was told to go there to be fair.

[sand marlin]

That doesn't make it less op but it's still one thing

[hollow shell]

Doesn't seem like Chalice is that big a problem then

[sand marlin]

I mean if it really is a need I can go test I guess

@frosty trellis what do you think

You wanna test chalice on yharon normally or should I

[sharp furnace]

Nah it is OP in the sense of a tank build and survivability. But not a good feeling item tbh.

I don't feel like it matters when I could just play better.

But that my headspace. Survivability and what not.

[frosty trellis]

Go for it I am still doing plant shenanigans

[hollow shell]

(I would like to say that I am glad that conversations like this can be had about an accessory like Chalice
Because Chalice has a really unique effect that is not mimicked by any other thing in the game
Significantly changing how taking damage works as a whole

Glad they devs are willing to take risks with a wacky accessory effect and not just stick to their guns with +X% stats)

[frosty trellis]

I love the effect of it and how you take damage

[small timber]

the thing about this type of effect is other games usually slap a downside on it

[frosty trellis]

I just think the bleed shouldn't be halved by drinking a potion

[small timber]

eg: you take 50% more damage, but is delayed over seconds as a bleed (because it is easier to regen it)

chalice instead slap an upside on it

[sand marlin]

We do have that

Crimson armor

Actually nevermind

It's different

[hollow shell]

Crimson armor has a downside?-

ok

[sand marlin]

It feels similar

[sharp furnace]

Huh

[sand marlin]

You take damage and heal it back in time if you don't take damage

IF you take damage again, it's cut off and reset

So you don't heal it

[sharp furnace]

Crimson... is just bonus life regen.

[small timber]

they can also fix chalice by like, say, make it only turn 50% of damage taken into bleed (so you still take 50% direct hit in HP)
so that potion heal only negate 25% of damage taken instead of 50%

[hollow shell]

Crimson doesn't heal damage back, it is just life regen, it'll go past the damage you took

afaik

[sand marlin]

Oh shit that's gone

Wow.

[hollow shell]

nah that'd be boring don't do that

[sharp furnace]

Chalice probably needs a good but more balance.

But other than that it's cool.

[sand marlin]

They actually removed such a good, fun and unique effect what the hell redigit

[sharp furnace]

I just don't like it since I can't fucking see the damn bleed and maybe I just want to kill a man.

[sand marlin]

This was unironically one of the coolest effects an armor can have that early in the game

[hollow shell]

Last resort should be trying to balance the cool unique accessory by making the cool unique effect happen less or be any less significant

[sand marlin]

It was just skill capped so it wasn't used as much

[hollow shell]

Commit to the coolness, find other ways

[frail mantle]

I thought crimson armor always just had high regen

[small timber]

just make it so you take 50% more damage with chalice

[frail mantle]

Like that was it’s main gimmick

[hollow shell]

There you go, that's more like it

[sharp furnace]

Even 20% would be a deterrent.

But yeah you thinking good.

[tardy geyser]

Make it so you have a chance to get critically hit 🧌

[sand marlin]

I am tripping something here I swear to god

Was it an older cal crimson armor bonus then

[crude geode]

I don’t think so?

[frail mantle]

Yeah can’t remember that

[crude geode]

I think you’re just imagining a bonus

[hollow shell]

Calamity may have done that? But no I don't recall the vanilla one ever doing that

[tardy geyser]

I think the fargos crimson enchantment does something like that?

[hollow shell]

That sounds plausible

[sand marlin]

That was based on the original set at one point if I recall

[sharp furnace]

Long and short facetanking is silly and if people want to cheat shit out they will regardless if you fix it I guess. More fun??? That's all I ask of calamity???

[hollow shell]

ay look at that

[sharp furnace]

YOOOO

[tardy geyser]

[sand marlin]

You can't just suggest a change to such a big mod that can have side effects to other things and may affect balance without a good enough reasoning and necessity

[sharp furnace]

I know that's why I'm making a Google doc with a well structured argument.

"well"

[frosty trellis]

Not much really
I stood on top of her until she was 21% and died for like a minute and a half

Lmao

I didn't move a muscle

Just stabbed her with brimlance

[hollow shell]

Hm well remember that suggestions in #suggestions-posting have a scope limit
Don't try to change the entire Calamity Mod with one suggestion

[frosty trellis]

Def damage regening through iframes moment

[hollow shell]

Unless you're not planning to put it in suggestions in which case go ahead

[small timber]

if defefense damage completely stop regening during iframe then defense damage % can be tuned down abit yes

[sharp furnace]

Yup! I'll try to just get the defense Damage to like at most 3.5x flat. Or somewhere there.

[hollow shell]

It'll have to be, cuz the way it is currently balanced was unintentionally relying on a lot of the Defense Damage being regenned by the time you can take another hit

[frosty trellis]

It's getting fixed next update so we'll have to see

[sharp furnace]

I'm not gonna be like IT SHOULD BE 10% AGAIN. Just something abit nicer. 3.71x is kinda insane.

[sand marlin]

Ok so I'm just dumb don't mind it

[frosty trellis]

Geniunely should've had rare sandy though I could've just stood still for plant and won

[sharp furnace]

But warranted.

[sharp furnace]

Yes.. but you are the master of tank. You've mastered the art of face tanking.

[small timber]

they can also go the other approach, buff defense damage to 50% and then slap reduce defense damage effect to accessories that no one use, like the ankh shield line

[sharp furnace]

HOLD UP THATS BIG.

[sand marlin]

"No one uses"

Whar

[small timber]

shirley

[sharp furnace]

Also wait yeah I didn't read that part

[hollow shell]

Well no that's not a great option cuz that will make defense damage more punishing for the average player rather than tanks
And the players that intend to tank will use the defense damage reducing accessories, so they're actually being punished less

[sand marlin]

I don't think there needs to be another niche stat in the board when we have dash velocity which is heavily underused it just bloats

[small timber]

it is not a good idea in general because it basically forces -1 accessory slot choice

currently you have -2 accessory slot already (wings + dash basically, you can play without them but it is just a massive inconvenience for most part of the game)

[crude geode]

Yep

[sand marlin]

Dash isn't forced

It's a pretty broken mechanic but still

You have two of
Base dash
Just normal mobility that still substitutes pretty well

[sharp furnace]

Man.

[small timber]

instead of using 2-3 slots for movement to supplement the lack of dash, you can just use dash

unless you are talking about outrun build like BOB

[frosty trellis]

Build ain' that complicated and requires no hotswapping (Yeah ik grand jelly is there I forgor about it)

[sand marlin]

Or use one to supplement for the lack of dash, or use a mount. Both do work

[hollow shell]

... Add a new tank accessory effect that overrides all dashes with a really pitiful one that can barely dodge anything
If people wanna tank, you force them to tank

[sand marlin]

[small timber]

you can yes which is why mount is imbalanced in general

[crude geode]

Rams when most players would rather die than go without it

[small timber]

you either have mounts so nerfed they are useless or have mount so strong why would you not use it because it gives +2 slots

[frosty trellis]

Hell this ain't even close to optimal I haven't even pulled out the water yet

[crude geode]

Slime mount when it

[small timber]

slime mount is not even that useful (for most people unless you have unreasonable arena size)

it is like the goat skull mount etc that are quite stupid

[sand marlin]

Mounts are strong but no I don't think they are broken it just comes down to how well you can use them because the movement aspect is much more different and limited

[frosty trellis]

Slime mount is decent it's not broken by any means

[crude geode]

Yeah

[hollow shell]

oh right Dash Velocity stat exists and was mentioned earlier
Could just slap -99% dash velocity on it

[sharp furnace]

Yeah, like I said I see your side of things. I still think there is merit in what I'm speaking about

[sand marlin]

Best example: Witch's Broom

[sharp furnace]

JUST KILL THEM

[hollow shell]

Kill people with hammers.
Kill people with hammers.

[sharp furnace]

YEAHHH

[crude geode]

so true

[sand marlin]

Decent speed, good turnaround, has infinite flight. Quite strong but you can have much better of a time with normal mobility after like one or two bosses

You would only use it to optimize your accessories

Because it is just enough mobility

[sharp furnace]

Oops, that was to a friend.

Also with Master proving facetanking is still possible even early than doesn't that just mean nothing was fixed?

[frosty trellis]

Def damage regening through iframes is the big cause of that really

Also I was still doing that on expert I don't have dragonlens enabled half the time because there is a lot on the screen and I like less on screen when messing around

[sand marlin]

Is this bug actively looked at

Are they aware

[sharp furnace]

Rover said that it's being discussed.

[sand marlin]

that's good enough then

Just wait until that's done and it'll be reasonable to test

[crude geode]

the funny thing is that I’m pretty sure iframes were still brought up even before the defense damage changes

[sharp furnace]

The data will be the same. I'm assuming you can't. My data is assuming you can't.

[small timber]

iframes in general is just too good

[sharp furnace]

Just turn them off.

[sand marlin]

I think post moon lord has high enough numbers that you can't regen through IFrames

[small timber]

I do genuinely think with so many new good defense accessories being released they can tune down iframe increase items, or make them have a penalty if you stack them

[frosty trellis]

They don't stack

Well until like post dog with armor byeah

[small timber]

some do, no much, like fabsol vodka, tracer etc

[frosty trellis]

But even pre dog with only veil and deific they can be toog ood

[hollow shell]

fun fact I brought this up to the devs in direct response to MPG talking about it here about a week ago

[frosty trellis]

Oh right fabs vodka I forgor that existed

[hollow shell]

It didn't seem like they were aware of it prior to that

[frosty trellis]

Wait really

Both xpc and I have known about that and have expressed that even in #1042197406776827914 for like

Months

[small timber]

to the point that I thought it is actually intentional and the wiki is wrong yes

[sand marlin]

Point in case, MPG's yharon facetank and praying he doesn't get infernado'd because if he does get nado'd it'd be both a strong attack and a consistent defense shredder so it's simply impossible to facetank strong attacks no matter your build

[frosty trellis]

I've known since 2.0.2 back when tank builds got way more serious and I could give tank builds for basically any tier

[sharp furnace]

Slowly begins to put down the Google doc.

[hollow shell]

Ozza and CIT both questioned your claim until they looked into it and verified it was true

[small timber]

and also in HM you can just have 🌊 build

on expert rev nothing can touch you
(at least lev ambergis is gone)

[frosty trellis]

Well shit dang

[frosty trellis]

GOD YEAH

I didn't even pull out the honey and water to make myself invincible

But I very easily could've

[crude geode]

Water build moment

[frosty trellis]

I still had wings in my tank build with the 19% plant

[small timber]

I always remember water because of ftw golem moment

[frosty trellis]

Water Build + Rare Sandy + Iframes = Lol lmao

[sharp furnace]

Water build is a funny term lmao.

[frosty trellis]

Well when you have shit like aquatic emblem giving you upwards of 50 defense in water

It's quite the thing

[sharp furnace]

Oh

[crude geode]

Yeah

[sharp furnace]

Yeah I forgot.

[small timber]

4 horsemen of water build

[sharp furnace]

Your right guys we should buff defense Damage.

I think we should explode and die for fun.

I'm starting to understand why Defense Damage isn't a problem to y'all

[small timber]

reworking defense into a 1 time damage negation on cooldown

[frosty trellis]

It's just def damage shouldn't regen during iframes

[small timber]

finally calamity can be a nohit mod

[frosty trellis]

And then it'll be better

[sharp furnace]

True.

[crude geode]

Iframe extensions just shouldn’t exist

[sharp furnace]

My numbers assume it doesn't Regen, so it'll probably be needed to tone down then I guess.

[crude geode]

[sharp furnace]

Person who wants the world to die.

[sand marlin]

Basing that off of a state where you can stack multiples at once lmao lol

If it was a single one you can have at a time it'd be perfectly fine

[frosty trellis]

Also something interesting to note: Star Veils iframes are BUGGED and sometimese DONT EVEN WORK FOR NO REASON

I had several instances while standing still fighting plantera and my extra iframes didn't proc and I was getting way more times tah normal

[sand marlin]

Bosses are also balanced around one IFrame extension

Which is deific

[crude geode]

Ty vanilla very cool

[small timber]

are you sure it is not because of you took less than 5 (or 1?) damage?

[sand marlin]

Idk if star veil is used

[crude geode]

They are???

[frosty trellis]

Since when was there a condition on that

[sand marlin]

Ok yeah star veil is not used for testing

It's just deific and rampart

[small timber]

if you take less than 5 (or 1?) damage you have much less iframe

iirc

[frosty trellis]

Since when

[sand marlin]

Based on tester gear yes

[small timber]

that or extra iframe from like starveil dont work

[frosty trellis]

I've never had this issue until literally just now

[sand marlin]

1.4 IFrame nerfs

[frosty trellis]

I didn't have this issue in fucking multiplayer on WFB

Back in 2.0.2

[sand marlin]

Taking 1 damage will lower IFrame duration and taking damage from traps will not give you IFrames(for other things) in 1.4 anymore

[sharp furnace]

Times are different. War has changed.

[sand marlin]

You
Didn't pay attention
Forgot
Or
Never met the scenario

Can only think of those

Star veil was broken as hell pre IFrame nerfs

It would murder bosses so much faster

Both because of star damage and the IFrames(from traps) making you invincible

[sharp furnace]

Insane.

Well, either way my tests are gonna try to be without the iframes. I will try to record the data as close to the source as I can. It'll be useful for the dev team. Probably since some jackass did it for them.

[sand marlin]

That was a randomly rude comment without any awareness but ok lol

[sharp furnace]

Oh shit my bad. Fuck I'm just tired I didn't mean to come off as rude. I'm just... Exhausted.

[sand marlin]

as long as you're aware and make up for it

[sharp furnace]

Nah I wouldn't have noticed if you didn't point it out. Thanks for the advise and experience y'all. It helps boarden my views.

I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy and if I come off like that. Well uh, it's because my friends are beat up about abit of the changes. Well, I won't ask for the changes yet. But if I notice that the game is silly maybe.

Also it's okay guys, lag tanking is truly the way.

Flamethrowers are cool now tho. My flamethrower friend is having a blast fr.

[hollow shell]

@ashen warren https://calamitymod.wiki.gg/wiki/Stat_Meter

[ashen warren]

Oh

Thanks for telling me lol

[hollow shell]

👍

[drowsy plank]

@serene vapor that is either an oversight (so goes to the bug thread} or a #1042197406776827914 thing, either way it doesn't belong here

[serene vapor]

It is?

I asked Roverdrive and he said it was okay

[serene vapor]

This

[frosty trellis]

The selection goes to the player with the highest aggro. I can confirm from multiple mp pts for this that the aggro stacked melee player always got it

So it's not random but the person who selects it should regardless especially if one is actually experienced with the moveset and the other is not

[drowsy plank]

reading what rover said he just confirms that it's still ingame and on the wiki; there's nothing in what he said that confirms it could not be an oversight (in the idea that it was supposed to be changed when mura was reworked, not that it was listed in changelogs as being removed but wasn't, which is what i assume he was going off of)

[serene vapor]

Okay

[ashen warren]

i have to wonder if that's a bug

that sounds completely unintentional