suggestions-discussion

[north oracle]

wait

really

[small timber]

if they want to implement something like this they will have to intergrate it into OD's own attack

[dense locust]

yeah lmao

[small timber]

eg: OD have a telegraphed attack that you can interrupt in some way

[north oracle]

i thought they just dealt more while dashing

[fossil finch]

this is funny because it's either working (unnoticiable) or not working (unnoticiable

[small timber]

this just, do not work

[dense locust]

true

[fossil finch]

Either way thank me we are the reason that's even documented on the wiki
It wasn't until we pointed it out

... it speaks a lot about how obscure that change was to begin with

[fervent orbit]

same with triumph potion

[dense locust]

it was 1.5 that added that, right?

[fossil finch]

Also yeah this is exactly the kind of thing that'd work very well

[lavish condor]

So a dynamic rest phase is a cool idea, but we'd need it communicated to the player very well to not cause confusion

[fossil finch]

Probably 1.5 maybe 1.4.5

Don't know

[small timber]

very well yes

because even the current "10 attack rest" is already very not noticeable to most player

they just thought OD pause attack randomly

[fossil finch]

By the time we pointed it out it had been a couple updates

[lavish condor]

To make it noticeable we'd need to make payoff immediate, so something like hitting it with its own projectile or something to instastun it

[small timber]

especially that OD's attack timing varied significantly, like obviously executing a vortex and a normal charge take significantly different amount of time, but both count as 1 attack

[fossil finch]

This is why we think it should be solely player activated through, again the example, this hypothetical new/current modified attack by doing x

That way the player knows they Did Something and that something left OD defenseless

[small timber]

the tldr is just yes it is not really something that can be suggested, because it will have to be integrated into OD's own moveset

[dense locust]

I think that having od have an actual visable stamina bar would go such a long way, even without my current sugg, but thats a suggestion for another day

[fossil finch]

And it's not just a random occurrence

[small timber]

which is restricted beyond what a suggestion can suggest

[fossil finch]

An actual stamina bar would be weirdly offputing

[lavish condor]

Probably would have to make something more diegetic than a stamina bar

[fossil finch]

No examples of npc stat bars anywhere else so the player may assume it's theirs
The player would also not know what its for in any case

[dense locust]

it would, but I'm also to stupid and sleep deprived to come up with something better

[small timber]

can also do something about the health bar but yeah

[lavish condor]

Maybe it attacks slower or turns to a color as it gets exhausted or something

[small timber]

or another idea is just have OD perform set pattern, and only rest after a specific strong attack
eg: OD's pattern is always summon shark -> charge like 3 times -> vortex -> charge 4 times -> rest etc (I dont remember OD attack pattern)

[fossil finch]

That'd also work

[fervent orbit]

I LOVE SET PATTERNS

GIMME

[fossil finch]

Its lamer than the whole interaction shtick ~~but its markedly more realistic for calamity boss

[dense locust]

ngl this was how I initially thought the resting phase worked until I looked it up for the suggestion lmao

[small timber]

terraria just don't have a universal mechanic to integrate something like this naturally yeah

in other game you have like parry etc, cal dont have these

at least not on non-specific accessories that is unreasonable to assume every player have it
(infernum worms but at the sametime they have much more freedom on implement just what they want, because it is basically 1 man deciding on boss design)

[dense locust]

OD's pattern is already set, this would just be making the resting phase part of said pattern

[small timber]

which I think is fine, can always increase rest phase duration if it ended up being 13-14 attacks chain for example

[worldly basalt]

i dont think i ever even knew it had a rest phase until this sugg

[fervent orbit]

the problem with implementing stagger phases into a boss fight is that no prior bosses have staggers (i call them staggers cuz ive played hk a bit)

[dense locust]

tbh I only knew about them cause I read the changelogs obsessively

[worldly basalt]

HK staggers are different because they're triggered by damage dealt, not their own attacks

[small timber]

but yeah I will do the pattern based rest phase suggestion later, got work to do first

[ripe owl]

Let's go unnecessary item bloat

[wide river]

You mean this one, correct?
#suggestions-posting message

[ripe owl]

Yes

We of course for no reason need another type of souls because there are souls of night for Corruption so why not make Souls of Blood for Crimson haha so funny, original and necessary

[kindred skiff]

Do they mean blood souls like soul of night and stuff?

[fervent orbit]

yes

that is precisely wat theyre asking for

[kindred skiff]

Pretty pointless suggestion

They function identically

Or they would

[wide river]

The idea was to add a Crimson variant of Souls of Night, being Souls of Blood. The counter was that it fit better in a smaller mod

[kindred skiff]

Definitely

Also just very unnecessary

[wide river]

Another idea that was brought up was to make it just be a visual thing, where if you got Souls of Night from a Crimson biome, it'd be red instead of purple

[kindred skiff]

That definitely sounds better

[small timber]

wait fuck I accidentally pressed enter, sec

[hollow shell]

so uh

What's goin on with the two suggestions asking for the same thing

[small timber]

the tldr is the "more dynamic rest phase" one ended up coming to the conclusion of "yeah this is not happening unless they introduce a new mechanic or integrate it into OD's attack, eg: a telegraphed interruptable attack"

since it just create variance and make it even harder for the player to keep track of when OD will rest, especially with the example provided in that one

so tldr2 is that suggestion is lacking abit in reasoning and clarification on how it can be possible to be executed so I created my own that I think is easier to be implemented (and a more natural solution)

[hollow shell]

Alright yeah I see they're not asking for the same thing, they're asking for two different solutions to the same problem
which means
the suggs will compete in voting

[crude geode]

I disagree on the natural part

[small timber]

yeah, though for me that more dynamic one can be abit exclamable so I just created mine

[crude geode]

part of the complaint of the original sugg is that it feels less like a weakness and more like a mechanic you have to account for

[small timber]

because the dynamic one didn't really solved the problem where "you save adrenaline for rest", because OD definitely still rest just at a different timing, whether faster or slower

and of course the "degree of the charges" is extreme variance that is impossible for player to follow, and make it much easier to lose track of when OD will rest

[small timber]

from my own understanding it didn't really said that nvm it is quoted, but even if that is the case the suggestion didn't really proposed a solution that can solve it

(because like we said for something like that to happen it will be very hard without straight up new attacks)

[crude geode]

I don't think every suggester has to come up with the solution to the problem

it's fine to just. leave it up to the devs on how a solution is implemented

[small timber]

ok at least they removed the "based on degree of the charges" part

the problem is where the suggestion didn't give anything that can be use to solve the problem at all

it will be like "solve world hunger: world hunger bad people starving solve please", and then just there and ask people to think of something

especially that I think the dynamic one require much more effort than the one I suggested, mine pretty much is just move when the rest phase happen (and potentially maybe how long the rest phase duration is depend on the attack pattern length); more dynamic one pretty much requires new attack or redesign of old attacks

[crude geode]

that's a pretty heavy exaggeration tbfh

[small timber]

terraria just do not really have a "universal" mechanic to do something like that, other game like deadcell have parry etc but terraria don't really have 1
closest we get is ram or dash but it will be infernum OD all over again, or true melee strike to interrupt a special charge but then it have a hard weapon requirement (and of course "true melee size" is a meme right now)

[crude geode]

it will be like "solve world hunger: world hunger bad people starving solve please", and then just there and ask people to think of something
I feel like this. kinda underestimates the dev's abilities to come up with solutions tbfh

especially with the port happening, giving plenty of time to kinda just think over stuff

it also doesn't help that I'm somewhat opposed to straight up rewritten suggs

[crude geode]

@hollow shell thoughts on this (and the following conversation)

[small timber]

if you want I can always save it and post it at a later date

but yeah I genuinely think the dynamic one is just lacking in reasoning and execution on how it can be done (which is the main reason why I posted mine)

because in addition to just the execution you also have to communicate to the player on the rest phase existing and/or doing something makes OD tires quicker without searching up the wiki

otherwise for them it is still "OD just randomly stop attacking"

[crude geode]

Focus more on the problem that must be solved, rather than ideas for how exactly to solve that problem. The majority of a suggestion's content should be the reason why the suggestion should be implemented.
direct quote from the don'ts doc (though directed under the SIS don't)

you can complain about the lack of reason, but solutions have never been a requirement

it's just something a lot of older suggestors tend to generate naturally

[small timber]

solution is not a requirement, but the suggestion don't even present a probable example of how it can be done, especially that as of currently there is completely no precedent of "bosses react to the player" (I mean for calamity)

[hollow shell]

The go-to solution for me for situations like this is always
Hold onto your own suggestion and wait a few days before posting it
So that both suggestions can stand on their own and not sap stars from each other

Crit's suggestion isn't the best but it's valid, and proposes a different solution, that being more player interactivity
If you have criticisms for their sugg then, you should ask em to edit it with those in mind

Is this conversation you defending why your suggestion is better so only it should go through and not Crit's?

[small timber]

yeah I will just do this if it is this conflicting

no, to me I thought Crit's one would had been exclaimed which is why I made mine

[hollow shell]

ok

[small timber]

but yeah since it is valid I will just save it for a later date, no point in competing it against my own suggestion anyway

[north oracle]

@cold cosmos #1042197406776827914

[cold cosmos]

That’s a thing?

Huh

Well alright then

[north oracle]

👍

[cold cosmos]

Should i just delete it and move it there then

[north oracle]

you should probably delete the suggestion, as that channel isn't really meant for balance things

[cold cosmos]

I haven’t been on the server in a while

Clearly some things have changed

[north oracle]

yah lol

[buoyant atlas]

not blood esc but Wright kinda works if viewed in the way how flesh regenerates and rebuilds on a cell by cell level

One that constructs or repairs something. Often used in combination.

that can be viewed aswell to how amalgamated the crimson monsters are.

[drowsy plank]

idk why we're even still talking about this souls of night aren't a corruption thing and also this entire thing is pointless so it's like double never happening

[buoyant atlas]

🤷‍♂️

[swift wharf]

Bloody edge was removed because it was just a red night's edge

adding a red version of souls of night would be even more pointless

[small timber]

and yeah souls of "night" is referring to "evil", not "corruption"

[buoyant atlas]

probably just my mind set and how i interpret things

[hollow ridge]

Meh

[small timber]

currently they are just eye balls

[hollow ridge]

Bros have the other placeable thing

[small timber]

wait with the suggestion until they are resprited

and yeah

[hollow ridge]

And also it's to the point where if they both dropped 2 things (4 things) it'd be cluttered

[small timber]

I don't remember "side boss" of the main boss having relics, at most just trophy (eg: scal brothers)

[hollow ridge]

They aren't even bosses

Or minibosses

[golden sonnet]

Yeah, Levi and anahita, as well as the twins and exos all only have one relic for the sum of them

[hollow ridge]

That's like giving cosmic gaurd a trophy in a way

[small timber]

and they have separated trophies but 1 relic

[hollow ridge]

Also fix the grammar

[small timber]

since when did leviathan give abyss lore, they are not even abyss side

[hollow ridge]

My brain can't take it

It's a misspelling actually ig

Oh there's 2

[small timber]

but yeah tldr:
not a single boss drop relics for their minion, but they do drop relics
however calclone's brothers already have trophies

[bright crag]

They have a connection to the Abyss

[swift wharf]

they do??????

[bright crag]

Tldr, ||the Abyss was Anahita's former home||

||She was evicted from there by Silva's burgeoning remains and Azafure's increasing pollution||

[swift wharf]

kinda silly

because you visit the abyss/ssea 3 times before levi

[buoyant atlas]

well if it has a trophy its a boss in my view

[swift wharf]

actually the abyss is visited twice

after skel and after clone

[bright crag]

And...?

[swift wharf]

so having the abyss lore being dropped from a boss whose fight does nothing to the abyss itself is kinda silly

[ripe owl]

So now Clam is a boss?

[bright crag]

Also, keep in mind, Abyss wil be reworked at some point :p

[ripe owl]

Wait doesn't it have no trophy?

[swift wharf]

you couldve told me that earlier

[bright crag]

Well, lore connection

[swift wharf]

gameplay connection + lore connection >>>>

[ripe owl]

Okay it does

[buoyant atlas]

yeah it does

oop

[bright crag]

Can't give them a gameplay connection to the Abyss I think
Because well, they're not there anymore, they were cast out

There is Strange Orb as a minor nod to this, though

[swift wharf]

just put their abyss lore in their lore

or in the strange orb

then the actual abyss lore to something more connected to the abyss

[bright crag]

The Abyss isn't really remarkable other than what's stated in the current lore item
Which is intimately connected to Anahita :p

And the lore item is quite long, so putting it in either of those isn't ideal

[swift wharf]

shrink the description or smth

or hold shift to show contents

like you already have an item that directly connects the siren to the abyss

[bright crag]

*ordinary item*
hold shift to show contents

*wall of text appears*

[swift wharf]

xd

[buoyant atlas]

"wall of text has awoken" XP

[bright crag]

Ah yes, cut some pretty nice information that we can't put anywhere else for now :p

There's also the fact that it's Yharim's perspective on it

[swift wharf]

breh

[dense ferry]

As I love to say

Actually as Phupper said

Have to fix all Calamity problems instantly

[civic sable]

literally the thank you item. press

screen turns into item text

[bright crag]

That's not lore at all :p
And how do you suggest we reduce the Thank You list

(We can't)

[dense ferry]

Kill the Devs

[golden sonnet]

So true

[swift wharf]

remove the former devs

[golden sonnet]

Fun fact most calamity players don't know!
the 22 incident was not a departure, it was a massacre. There were too many names on the painting

[drowsy plank]

the names r still on the painting tho....,..,.

[golden sonnet]

I know, I was making a joke

[drowsy plank]

i know i was also messing around

the real solution is to simply erase them from existence

[glass arch]

no they arent

you're crazy tbh

[drowsy plank]

[dense ferry]

Re.

[hybrid steeple]

becca

[fossil finch]

Its still true it was a massacre, they were intentionally killed

[swift wharf]

good suggestion

[hollow ridge]

W sugg

[golden sonnet]

Rare adding jungle materials W

[ripe owl]

For some reason I thought of Terror whatever they are called

[drowsy plank]

terror claws yeah

one of the weapons ever

[ripe owl]

Two thoughts brushed my head:
"Don't they have Chloro bars in the recipe?" But then I understood they were removed
And "If anything, they should be removed, they're literally useless"

But then I read the suggestion 3 more times

[small timber]

or they can just, you know

delete the recipe and add some chest around vernal pass

[ripe owl]

True

[small timber]

with guaranteed rotation for loot

[drowsy plank]

i mean im pre-DoG and i still havent found my vernal

[small timber]

JUST FIND IT LOL

[drowsy plank]

unless they wanna add an item to track location

[small timber]

but yeah

[ripe owl]

Sounds like a pill tissue to me

[drowsy plank]

lmao

[small timber]

with how many new locations they added right now they can totally do that

the large hive can fit too since those tend to be connected to jungle

and that one I think you have very high chance to find unless you never run to the end of the world

[ripe owl]

They uh

The Big Hive doesn't seem to always spawn with a chest

[small timber]

which is what I mean by it should be spawned with chests

[ripe owl]

But it spawns with it

[small timber]

or rather have the chest guaranteed, and increase in amount is what I am saying

[ripe owl]

It's just that they either have to fix the chance or guarantee it to be 100% if it's not already

[grim tusk]

@half imp try to address the disable reforge rng config being able to be disabled

[half imp]

ok

done

[glass arch]

god i loathe vanilla reforge system

vanilla should implement auto reforge tbh

[half imp]

I coded an external program to read my screen data and use that to reforge my weapons automatically

I was so done with it

[drowsy plank]

damn

[golden tulip]

damn what

[drowsy plank]

that's sick

[golden tulip]

yall a special kind of petty 💀

[half imp]

it was when I was testing vanilla weapons

[wide river]

The idea was there
The execution was not

[fossil finch]

Heros has a select reforge feature u didn't have to be that petty

[glass arch]

*we a special kind of lazy

[fervent orbit]

but does heros have paint tool

checkmate

[golden tulip]

you can have heroes and cheat sheet at the same time

[fervent orbit]

shhh

[wide river]

Just have every cheat mod enabled

[glass arch]

or you can just use the AutoReforge mod

actually does that still exist

[fervent orbit]

so wing slot?

[fervent orbit]

yea

[glass arch]

ok good to know

[wide river]

At this point I no longer consider that a cheat mod
Just me, though. A lot of other people probably consider it to be cheaty

[glass arch]

wing slot is toeing the line of being a full cheat mod imo

[fossil finch]

Theres an easy way to define cheat mod "does SGA disable it"

[glass arch]

TRUE

[fervent orbit]

calamity should just disable every other mod

no more mod conflicts anymore

[glass arch]

ture...,,.,..,,......,

[toxic basalt]

Still holding up hope that destroyer gets laser telegraphs, because this still happens

[wide river]

Is that... a Death Mode no-hit?

[half imp]

I should try and make a mod to telegraph them

hmm

[toxic basalt]

Master, Death, FTW

Master and FTW don't affect his attack AI

FTW only makes him even bigger

Death Destroyer is just a disaster of a fight

[wide river]

Usually I would say that Calamity shouldn't balance around any of those things, but if Death Mode is the only actual problem here, then I guess it would be fine?

[half imp]

the problem isn't even just death

it's destroyer in general

death just makes it worse

[blazing kettle]

erm actually its the probes

[half imp]

Destroyer is notorious for being nearly RNG for nohitting

because his lasers have no telegraph at all before or even right when they fire

[wide river]

A telegraph might make the screen cluttered, but adding something that's a bit more fair than the Destroyer being the epitome of the Buzz LIghtyear meme would be fine, methinks

[half imp]

I mean

thanatos does telegraphs fine

and he spams lasers like no tommorow

literally just doing that same telegraph would likely work fine

[golden tulip]

yeaa make destroyer even more of a thanatos clone

epic

[half imp]

I mean

that makes sense lore wise

[golden tulip]

we always tell everyone gameplay > lore

[half imp]

this would improve both gameplay and lore :)

[golden tulip]

literally the ONLY thing differentiating them would be thanatos has 1 extra attack

[worldly basalt]

maybe thanatos needs new attacks then?

[fervent orbit]

lets just ignore destroyers probes

sure

[golden tulip]

yea but good luck getting that approved

[golden tulip]

true but also just conveniently ignore how shitty they are

[worldly basalt]

it's still an aspect of the fight to keep track of

[golden tulip]

my point still stands
this would not help the comparisons between the bosses

[worldly basalt]

so yea, thanatos needs new stuff

so it isnt just "destroyer but with telegraphs instead of probes"

[fervent orbit]

i was mocking you

[golden tulip]

and i was mocking you

[fervent orbit]

no you werent

???

[golden tulip]

what

[worldly basalt]

they used somewhat the same wording

[fervent orbit]

you just made a statement about the probes

[worldly basalt]

which could kind of count as mocking

[half imp]

eh

[worldly basalt]

i dont mind the probes at all tbh, they make the fight more interesting

[golden tulip]

are you telling ME how i meant it.

[half imp]

it's not like adding telegraphs actually makes him more like Thanatos really

The attacks aren't necessarily changing

[fervent orbit]

you literally just said a statement

[half imp]

thanatos is still very distinct in like

[worldly basalt]

conveying information through text alone makes it easy to misread what someone's saying

if you're mocking someone, do it more blatantly so they know you're mocking them 😊👍

[half imp]

• segment need to open
• no probes
• literally only 1/3rd of it's boss fight

[fervent orbit]

unless ur telling me the fact that probes are bad is a joke

then u made a joke

[golden tulip]

how much are you going to keep talking about semantics

[golden tulip]

segments needing to be open is negligable in my experience. as long as you shoot your weapon youll do damage

[fervent orbit]

let me just use uni splitter when hes closed then

[golden tulip]

can you stop reply pinging every time

i am right here

[fervent orbit]

no

[golden tulip]

aight

[half imp]

Segments needing to open is very much not negligible

especially for summoner

[fervent orbit]

the whole "reply ping" has only been an issue when they changed replies it seems

somehow

since replies where always here

[swift wharf]

if you count chipping his health away as "doing damage" then yeab sure

[half imp]

it drastically decreased the effectiveness of weapons that don't pierce

unless you specifically aim for open

[swift wharf]

some weapons don't work and some shred him

[golden tulip]

eh, i havent played in a long time, youre probably right

[swift wharf]

vent system is kinda bad

[half imp]

if you have a weapon with high or infinite pierce then it doesn't matter that much

[fervent orbit]

the crystal of yharim

[frosty trellis]

Vent system isn't great but after Thanatos got some speed back it's less bad

[worldly basalt]

ares and arte/apol are both very different from sprime and twins, than needs more unique attacks imo

[frosty trellis]

Also even stuff like Ataraxia which doesn't pierce does fine, the speed buff in 2.0.2 helped A LOT with non-piercing weapons

[half imp]

doesn't ataraxia shards have piercing

[swift wharf]

thanatos needs a segment that you can always damage

[half imp]

tbh Thanatos is mostly fine

[golden tulip]

do boss suggestions ever even get approved

[half imp]

except he melts too easily to pierce

[deep tulip]

The tail/head

[frosty trellis]

Maybe but you aren't hitting more than one vent every bc they are 2-3 segments apart + how you need to aim it

[frosty trellis]

See
That was already rejected

[golden tulip]

considering fabsol doesnt even tend to listen to devs when it comes to boss attacks, let alone random calmain members

[swift wharf]

if only

[frosty trellis]

Actually yes bc I'm the reason that Thanatos got the speed buff Lol

[deep tulip]

I mean good because chasing down a fast worm boss sucks

[golden tulip]

damn, ok

[half imp]

they listen sorta

but large changes are unlikely

[frosty trellis]

I was complaining about Thana when fab was in #calamity-update-talk and they looked at the speed of Thana and realized yeah that's too slow

[golden tulip]

ic

[half imp]

now complain about twins

they need to buff back exo twins

[frosty trellis]

I probably should bc they are now piss easy

LITERALLY

[half imp]

they're so incredibly free now

[golden tulip]

you should complain about the state of the world.

[frosty trellis]

WHY DID THEY NERF TWINS

[golden tulip]

lets see what he does

[half imp]

twins were honestly the best designed one before imo

[frosty trellis]

Exo Twins was more than fine

Twins and Ares was fine
Thanatos before 2.0.1 was horrid and then got overnerfed and now is fine

[swift wharf]

exo mechs are bosses

[frosty trellis]

Ares is fine now

But twins is completely free

Like

They shoot way slower and no double special attacks is just etch

[glass arch]

i mean hey at least its not an infernum situation

[half imp]

The dash being solo is

[swift wharf]

they removed the synergy attacks?

[half imp]

how do you even get hit by that if you have even an ounce of awareness

[deep tulip]

Isn’t the point of twins is they work together 💀

[half imp]

and Ohio pretty free now too

[frosty trellis]

O.H.I.O. and E-Dash always happen at different points now

[half imp]

bc there's no reason not to stay right near the rotation point

[toxic basalt]

probes is just another problem alongside destroyer himself

[swift wharf]

the point of exo mechs was that they worked together

[frosty trellis]

Oh yeah Ohio became way slower for some reason

[toxic basalt]

that change pretty much ruined my muscle memory on the fight

[swift wharf]

but uhhhhg xd

[frosty trellis]

They turned
The most fun and interesting part of the fight
Into Signus

Aka: A joke of a fight

[glass arch]

ohio from what i remember was hell to dodge

[half imp]

so true

Ohio wasn't that bad but I agree it was fine to nerf it's speed like they did

the issue is moving dash as well

[glass arch]

though it may have been changed since very end of 1.5

[frosty trellis]

Nah it wasn't hell you just had to get used to the RoD timing or stay close and circle. Or just had enough vertical and horizontal mobility to somehow fly out of range

[toxic basalt]

A&A were pretty much fine before and they got dragged through the mud again + their specials are now desynced which makes preparing for them even harder

[frosty trellis]

Specials rn are independent and never sync

Which is just

[glass arch]

on its own ohio is fine ye

[frosty trellis]

Not Interesting

[half imp]

the specials rn are so easy

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

[glass arch]

but with dashes happening too it became EXTREMELY bullshit imo

[half imp]

somehow easier than Thanos beam

[toxic basalt]

I actually went back to release exos to see how bad A&A were and, sure they were bad, but even then it wasn't immensely bad

[frosty trellis]

Twins are easier than Thanatos and that's WITH using something like item frame galaxia to annihilate Thanatos

[half imp]

nah

galaxia makes Thanatos such a joke

they're harder than galaxia thanatos

but easier than dragon rage thanatos

[frosty trellis]

No the problem with release Exos was the fact Ares was a little overtuned and Thanatos lasers were HORRID and waytoofuckingfast

[lucid flare]

& no telegraphs

[deep tulip]

Oh that sucks I was going to fight exo mechs for the first time in the next few days

[glass arch]

"ares was a little overtuned" me when the area denial attack HAS NO TELEGRAPH and none of the others did either

[toxic basalt]

also atm, Artemis' prediction Ai is a bit too drunk

and that still hasn't been fixed

[frosty trellis]

A&A just suck

They were my favorite mech

And now they just suck

[glass arch]

i got hit by the area denial once (not gauss nuke the bigass laser that isnt blender) and it did half of my fucking hp

[toxic basalt]

Best way I see A&A is that they were imposed changes that didn't fix anything and what actually needed fixing was promptly ignored

[half imp]

the way I see art-apo changes is ????

why

[frosty trellis]

A&A didn't need fixing or nerfing

Like

Maybe have the predictive dashes less annoying and have the special attacks always sync

But those were kinda nitpicky

[half imp]

the predictive dashes were fine

[toxic basalt]

if A&A were to of gotten nerfs, it would of been when Thanatos was present with them

that's when things get problematic

[frosty trellis]

A&A + Thanatos was fine what

The duo fights were fine if a bit easy at times

[toxic basalt]

wait no I messed up

[glass arch]

twins specials on their own are really easy to dodge but when you string em together they became pain incarnate, at least for me

[toxic basalt]

yeah that part is fine

[toxic basalt]

just, use RoD/NR

[glass arch]

i am one of the few people who never uses rod

even if i have it i just dont use it

[frosty trellis]

Not really
Having both of them at the same time just makes you think

Also it can be easier if you just let yourself get hit by one of the small E-Dash projectiles then iframe through O.H.I.O. that way thanks to rampart which I find hilarious

[toxic basalt]

unfortunately you can't not use RoD forever

[frosty trellis]

I rarely use RoD

[worldly basalt]

no attack should require RoD imo

[glass arch]

bitch ive been doing this for almost a year i absolutely can avoid teleports

[frosty trellis]

I use RoD if I have too, not something I rely on

I generally do every fight without RoD, I just have it in slot 2 as a backup

[toxic basalt]

due to the desync, now I struggle to know when one will do their special

[glass arch]

if an attack requires rod then you know that attack is bad

[frosty trellis]

^

There's a reason the Fargo's nohit community bans RoD

[glass arch]

if an attack sequence requires rod you know that sequence is bad

[frosty trellis]

Bc you shouldn't need it

It's a extra tool not a requirement

[fervent orbit]

fargo also damages you when u use rod during a boss fight

[frosty trellis]

Hence I don't even use it most of the time

[wide river]

Forced damage is lame
If it's an undodgable attack under all circumstances, then maybe it's fine. But if the RoD is required to not take damage, then that attack needs to be changed

[frosty trellis]

I think the only times I really use RoD are moonlord's death Ray mainly but thats more to help with DPS uptime by not fuckign up my positioning and less something I have to do bc I can Fishron Wings around it just fine usually

[worldly basalt]

Does this seem okay?

More Unique Attacks for Thanatos

Of the exo-mechs, Ares, Apollo, and Artemis are very distinct from their standard-mech counterparts. Thanatos is not. Where the others are almost entirely different, Than is just destroyer with telegraphs instead of probes, and somewhat different movement. Only when in the final phase does it get an attack entirely different from its base, whereas the other's attacks hardly resemble the original mechs at all. Giving Thanatos an identity of its own would make it a much more interesting part of the exo-mech battle.

[glass arch]

if you have multiple separate attacks that are all fine to dodge without rod on their own the individual attacks are fine
if the attacks when strung together need rod to dodge then you either need to change the order of the attacks or give better transitions between the attacks

yeah looks fine

[worldly basalt]

nice

[toxic basalt]

ok what was I talking about earlier...oh right, Destroyer and a need for telegraphs

[wide river]

Might be fine, although I'm not sure entirely
It won't get exclaimed, to the best of my knowledge

[serene tendon]

mmm. yes make the fight ugly as crap. good idea

[glass arch]

destroyer doesnt necessarily need telegraphs it just needs to have less laser spam

[toxic basalt]

would you rather keep destroyer as an unfair spamfest instead?

[serene tendon]

Or the lasers should be slower

[glass arch]

a hundred lines on the screen will not help me dodge the spamfest to come

[fervent orbit]

and thanatos isnt

[serene tendon]

Yes. And it's only unfair if you're a nohitter

[toxic basalt]

If a boss has the ability to cheaply hit you regardless, then it's bad

nohitting or not

[serene tendon]

The difference is, Destroyer does it during all of the fight, Thanatos only does it sometimes

[worldly basalt]

a lot of vanilla bosses can get cheap hits under certain circumstances

[glass arch]

on thanatos the telegraphs work fine because you have the movement capabilities to not get stuck inside of thana

[serene tendon]

that too

[toxic basalt]

rarely. Destroyer does it very often

[serene tendon]

And its hits do like 20 damage

[wide river]

Either we have a lot of lasers that are hard to dodge or we have a lot of lasers that clog your screen that make the lasers hard to dodge

[toxic basalt]

still cheap hits

[fervent orbit]

lmao wat

probes lasers are very strong for no reason yknow

[serene tendon]

I'm exaggerating of course, but not by much

[toxic basalt]

oh yeah, probes

[worldly basalt]

just kill the probes then smh my head

[serene tendon]

also probes are way easier to dodge than body

[toxic basalt]

why in god's name do they fire a string of 3 lasers

[fervent orbit]

probes when 100 dmg per laser

[glass arch]

destroyer? unless its your last mech you dont have a reliable ram to get out of the destroyers inevitable loops

[toxic basalt]

What? Have you see what happens when they start piling up?

[worldly basalt]

don't let them pile up

[serene tendon]

Just kill them lol

it isn't hard

[fervent orbit]

tries to hit probes
spawns more probes instead

those buggers are hard to hit

[worldly basalt]

aim issue tbh

[serene tendon]

ye

[glass arch]

telegraphs with the destroyer would be very bad for visibility just because destroyer is almost always around you

[fervent orbit]

they also accelerate and decelerate nearly at random

[toxic basalt]

Probes get knocked back easily and you have a lack of weapons that can home

[serene tendon]

yes

[toxic basalt]

it's not that "easy" lol

[wide river]

"Just kill them" That seems like saying "Just dodge"
The probes are annoying when piled up, but trying to kill them can often lead to getting more probes to spawn

[fervent orbit]

i literally just said that lol

[toxic basalt]

exactly

[worldly basalt]

making sure they don't pile up is an important part of the fight though

[serene tendon]

yeah

[wide river]

Oh, whoops
Didn't see that, sorry

[glass arch]

have you seen what it looks like when thanatos uses laser barrage while its coiled around you? its an absolute mess of lines that doesnt help you dodge

[fervent orbit]

thats fine, you were writing mid sentence

[serene tendon]

Precision is important, and that's a good thing

[fervent orbit]

and ur expecting everyone to have perfect accuracy

[toxic basalt]

just one problem, what types of weaps do you need to deal with destroyer? AoE and Pierce weaps, weapons that often spawn more probes by accident

[serene tendon]

No?

[worldly basalt]

then have a weapon to effectively deal with probes if you need to

[serene tendon]

Use 1 weapon for probes, one for body. Simple

[glass arch]

destroyer would have the downside of this situation being almost all of the telegraphs because you cant get out of the destroyers coils reliably until post 2 mechs and cryo

[toxic basalt]

name one then

[deep tulip]

Being able to test the bosses and give feedback would be cool

[serene tendon]

Marrow

[toxic basalt]

also stop acting like you know that this boss is a literal joke

[drowsy plank]

destroyer is a bad fight and making it more like thanatos would be nothing but beneficial just like making brain of cthulhu more like ceaseless void

[serene tendon]

it's not, but it's not as hard as you claim it is

[deep tulip]

Summoner destroyer fight

[toxic basalt]

Have you done death destroyer?

[glass arch]

giving telegraphs to it wouldnt necessarily be the best way to go about it

[worldly basalt]

i like destroyer 😔

[drowsy plank]

i dont see why not, fargos does it and it looks fine

[glass arch]

it would mostly be a ton of lines that dont help you dodge because you cant get out of the destroyers loops

[serene tendon]

Not everything needs to be 100% avoidable in every circumstance. Trying to do so will only hinder the bosses

[drowsy plank]

obviously reworking the fight would be great but this is nothing but beneficial

[worldly basalt]

fargo changes how the lasers work though, so it doesn't spam

[wide river]

Telegraphs might start cluttering the screen, considering the player will be closer to Destroyer than they will be to Thanatos

[drowsy plank]

this is true, but telegraphs are a start

[fervent orbit]

mmm i love being surrounded by a giant body, and being shot at by tiny, highly maneuvarable, knockbackable probes that shoot lasers on mass that all do 100 damage or more

[serene tendon]

Just make the lasers slower if you're that concerned about nohitters

[toxic basalt]

the suggestion I had was to give telegraphs but remove the projectile acceleration so the telegraphs are more accurate

[fervent orbit]

this is destroyer

dont act like its not

[deep tulip]

I play fargos and this is true I didn’t feel like I was being bullied

[worldly basalt]

well you still are being bullied, but in a less spammy way

[drowsy plank]

"might start cluttering the screen"

[serene tendon]

No grav potion moment

[drowsy plank]

you say this like dest isnt already screen clutter

[fervent orbit]

and now we are expecting the normal player to carry grav pots to a boss fight

[drowsy plank]

at least with graphs you might be able to dodge his attacks

[serene tendon]

It'd be infinitely worse with telegraphs

[wide river]

Is adding more screen clutter the solution to screen clutter

[glass arch]

take a look at what thanatos' telegraphs look like when you're inside of the loops, its a mess that doesnt help you dodge
at least there you have a reliable way to get out of the loops

[worldly basalt]

triple the amount of probes, it'd be funny

[fervent orbit]

this isnt about you, the experienced nohitter
this is about the normal person playing through the game

[serene tendon]

Why wouldn't they? You can buy them from the wizard lol, they're super easy to get

For certain fights, at least

[fervent orbit]

because they wouldnt know they would need them

or know if its even good to use them during said fight

[deep tulip]

Yeah I’d get occasionally get encircled and forced to get hit but it didn’t feel agonizing like having to deal with a barrage of lasers and probes

[serene tendon]

Grav potion turns destroyer from meh to cool

[drowsy plank]

idk why yall talk abour loops n staying close to dest, half of my fights with him are about staying as far away as possible from the thing because being close spellls death

[worldly basalt]

well the encircling is specifically intended to happen, it's part of eternity mode ai

it's dodgable

[serene tendon]

True.

[deep tulip]

I’m melee 💀

[drowsy plank]

getting looped means ur doing something wrong and might as well be dead

[worldly basalt]

sounds like a you problem tbh

[deep tulip]

Fr

[fervent orbit]

shadowflame knife

[drowsy plank]

yeah me too you still dont wait by his head or in his coils or something lmao

[glass arch]

destroyer has no ram unless the player does destroyer as their last mech
and theres good reason to not do it last because some of the weapons it grants (like megashark) are useful for the other mechs

[drowsy plank]

you position so the head is far away and hit the body or tail

[serene tendon]

I've beaten Rev destroyer with Night's Edge, it's not super hard, just stay away until you have adrenaline and use grav potions to get a good angle on him

[deep tulip]

Yeah I don’t get annoyed at the encircling because usually it’s me getting overconfident when he pops up from the ground

[worldly basalt]

the surround attack is telegraphed though

[toxic basalt]

speaking of his head. The laser spread attack he does, it pretty much makes passing his head even more annoying

[drowsy plank]

indeed

[serene tendon]

If his head is near you you're already doomed

[glass arch]

the issue is both how much destroyer spams lasers compared to thanatos and the fact that you dont have a reliable way to get out of loops if you ever get into them until you've already done the other mechs

[toxic basalt]

no?

[deep tulip]

I didn’t know that

[toxic basalt]

Passing his head is a strat to go to the other side of him so you have more room

[serene tendon]

*near enough for a laser burst to be dangerous

[worldly basalt]

when the rings appear, purple = surround time, yellow = many bullets time

[toxic basalt]

that's the thing, he does it whenever

if you're close, far away

it's random

[serene tendon]

If you're far away, or even decently close to the head, no big deal. If you're really close, what are you doing?

[wide river]

What are we even talking about anymore?
This started with talking about Destroyer, and now here we are still talking about Destroyer, but there's like three conversations happening

[toxic basalt]

ok I'm never that close to his head

[glass arch]

if there was a way to make destroyer more fair i would take it, but unfortunately telegraphs are not that way

[toxic basalt]

but he still does it from a decent distance

[serene tendon]

That's usually how this chat goes

[deep tulip]

That does make sense yeah I’m dumb

[serene tendon]

From a decent distance you can dodge it

[worldly basalt]

destroyer, then thanatos, then back to destroyer again

[toxic basalt]

sure, if I knew when it would happen

[serene tendon]

I feel like in order to get anywhere with this convo, we'd have to get a diagram or something of how close one is to the head. "decent distance" and "really close" don't seem to be cutting it

[drowsy plank]

ill be honest i know people are saying adding telegraphs would just add more noise to the fight but frankly id consider it helpful noise because at least you'd know the lasers are actually coming

[serene tendon]

Audio telegraphs are cool, it's the colored lines I don't want in the fight

[drowsy plank]

frankly the worm bosses in cal just kind of suck

deus is okay at least

[serene tendon]

Deus is A, DoG is S

Destroyer is C

[toxic basalt]

DOG is meh

[drowsy plank]

i dont like DoG at all

[north oracle]

He kinda sucks too tbh

Worm, but 2! And they still spam lasers

[drowsy plank]

yeah but they're much slower and easier to see

[hybrid steeple]

worm bosses fire anything but lasers challenge

[drowsy plank]

plus no probes to exasterbate the issue

[north oracle]

finally

[drowsy plank]

deus mines r cool

[toxic basalt]

Thanatos is probably my favourite as he is literally Destroyer if he was actually GOOD

[serene tendon]

Desert and Aquatic Scourge moment

[drowsy plank]

adds a good dynamic to the fight, keeps you on your toes

[serene tendon]

yes

[drowsy plank]

DS is suprisingly good too tbh

[hybrid steeple]

true

[serene tendon]

If they removed the red lines he'd be S

[north oracle]

Except for when they spray lasers from a totally random direction to snipe you

[toxic basalt]

are you fucking high or something?

[serene tendon]

No, they're ugly, break immersion, and are unnecessary considering the lasers fire one after the other

[north oracle]

Than is decent honestly

But his base is destroyer and he stayed far too close to that to be good

[toxic basalt]

Thanatos. You do realise that only happens outside his final phase

in his final phase he goes literally apeshit with the lasers

[fervent orbit]

damn you really are a destroyer supporter for no reason

[toxic basalt]

if there was no telegraph, he would be at the bottom of the bin in terms of enjoyability

[serene tendon]

Just cause there are a lot doesn't mean it's bad boss design

[toxic basalt]

[serene tendon]

Ok mr 7000 hour nohitter

[drowsy plank]

maybe laser spam is just a bad idea for an attack in general

[north oracle]

[glass arch]

crazy how projectile spam is bad

[drowsy plank]

truly

[toxic basalt]

...ok, dude. I've only been nohitting for a mere fraction of the hours I have on terraria. stop assuming I no-life nohitting

[serene tendon]

This guy seriously doesn't know what exaggerating for effect is

[drowsy plank]

i feel like that is the opposite of a burn considering it give credibility to Meister's point anyway

[fervent orbit]

which dev do i ping to ask how to utterly delete thanatos telegraphs to prove how telegraphs are important as fuck

[north oracle]

Especially incredibly random untelegraphed and hard to predict projectile spam

[drowsy plank]

im more inclined to trust someone with more experience

[north oracle]

(Destroyer)

[drowsy plank]

idk ask doze

[glass arch]

if you give any boss a huge amount of projectiles with a short cooldown it inevitably becomes bad

[fervent orbit]

the real dev

[drowsy plank]

so true

[fervent orbit]

[instert the yuh message that said he found someone who thought doze was a rogue dev]

[north oracle]

Unless it’s consistent and not every single one of the projectiles is aimed directly at you

[glass arch]

imagine sprime but it shoots 20 rockets and 20 lasers per attack
doesnt seem very fun now does it

[drowsy plank]

it is the reverse, doze is puppeting us all from behind the scenes

[fervent orbit]

oh wait stip is online

i could ask him since he comes here often

[wide river]

Clearly we are all alts of Doze

[drowsy plank]

aight

duh

[fervent orbit]

@bright crag how shit would thanatos become if we deleted thanatos telegraphs? also how can i do it

[toxic basalt]

Doze: Ultimate Anarchist

[north oracle]

I was asked if I was dozes alt a while back

[serene tendon]

The point is, this is the opinion of a nitpicking elite who doesn't accept the damage to avoidability ratio because every hit kills

[wide river]

Funny

[drowsy plank]

i do not agree with you at all

[fervent orbit]

theyre 100 damage lasers

[drowsy plank]

i just think you have bad takes mewk tbh

[fervent orbit]

that ARE SPAMMED

[toxic basalt]

ok now you're just being an ass

[drowsy plank]

lmao

[fervent orbit]

[north oracle]

The damage to avoidability ratio on those lasers is dogshit

[serene tendon]

My opinion is as valid as yours, no more, no less. I am simply explaining it.

[wide river]

If someone is really good at the game, we should consider their opinion on if an attack is too difficult. Nothing more, nothing less

[fervent orbit]

is an opinion valid if it tries to pass itself as fact and is factually incorrect?

[drowsy plank]

i know a few people have said teles would be bad but more people have said they'd be good than bad from what ive seen, and considering my own experiences with the fight id be inclined to agree

obviously id rather just. idk fucking kill probes if you aren't gonna gives us a warning about those laser so we can focus on one thing at a time

[north oracle]

Also, if a boss is absolutely awful to nohit because it’s unpredictable and shoots from offscreen, that’s still an issue with the boss

[drowsy plank]

dest unironically feels like a dps check sometimes

[wide river]

One of the easier ones considering like half of the on-tier stuff melts them

[north oracle]

Than would definitely be much more painful without telegraphs

[fervent orbit]

stip hasnt responded yet

:c

[north oracle]

Particularly berserk

[toxic basalt]

hey @drowsy plank , I actually made a video on 1.5.1 Destroyer with a joke song playing as its theme instead, wanna see it in dms?

[fervent orbit]

yall remember how class setups on fandom was all changed to murasama once? lets do that for pre mechs with avalanche

[drowsy plank]

true but id rather it be a real fight

[drowsy plank]

sure lol

[wide river]

Fair point

[drowsy plank]

the fact dest spams both probes AND lasers makes him so so so bad

[fervent orbit]

that are also 100+ dmg

[north oracle]

Nohitting, forcing it to be a real fight, also makes it one of the least enjoyable fights in the game

[fervent orbit]

which is a 5th of ur hp without defense

about 1/7th posssibly with defense

[north oracle]

It’s only fun when you melt him

[drowsy plank]

we have projectile spam with AS, and pretty minion intense fights with DS, and both of them are fine alone, but forcing both together just makes it cancer

[fervent orbit]

"minion intense"

[north oracle]

2 seekers

[drowsy plank]

much like what fargos does making the probes projectile fodder to stop you from hitting the boss is already detrimental enough, but like. probes do EVERYTHING

[fervent orbit]

literally 2 minions that get as melted as easily as ds himself

[toxic basalt]

AQ and Astrum Deus are minefield simulators

[fervent orbit]

the desert nuisances are unlike probes since probs are single target

with seperate ai

and also have kb

[drowsy plank]

there's the little guys too, the point im making is that they're pretty significant for the tier you fight them tbh, and they arent nearly as bad

[north oracle]

And they’re actually possible to hit

[toxic basalt]

I don't think DS has ever been a problem...unless you're fighting them on bossrush, because there's a weird bug with FTW and the fact it spams so many projectiles it reduces my frames to about 1fps

[fervent orbit]

The number of sand blasts shot at the peak of its lunge is increased to 24 / 32 Expert Mode / 36 Revengeance Mode / 40 Death Mode.

lo

[toxic basalt]

I think BR also increases it even further due to the more aggressive AI

[fervent orbit]

yes more speed and accel

[glass arch]

fun fact br ds has the most hp out of any br boss aside from exos (at least according to the wiki)

[wide river]

That's really funny what the heck

[glass arch]

yeah its kinda dumb

[fervent orbit]

stip still hasnt responded

💔

[wide river]

Stip's playing Fortnite, just wait a bit

[fervent orbit]

that is so true

hes gotta get that battle royale

(was that wat its called)

[glass arch]

#1 victory royale

yeah fortnite we bout to get down

[fervent orbit]

oh yea

victory royale

wat if i click ask to join

[toxic basalt]

adding Master & FTW to the mix and you have a boss with a comical amount of HP

like

32Mil I think?

[bright crag]

Idk, I'm not a coder
And it'd probably be very shitty

[fervent orbit]

dev agreed

mewks whole point is moot

[toxic basalt]

I don't think it takes much to realise how bad of an idea it would be

[fervent orbit]

ok ill just ask doze or smthn

[swift wharf]

you don't need to do that you already have destroyer

[fervent orbit]

i mean

[toxic basalt]

I mean that's exactly why we're having this discussion

[fervent orbit]

thats wat we have been talking about

[glass arch]

im convinced mewk hasnt fought dest recently because otherwise theyd know how awful it is

[swift wharf]

ummm ummmmm xd

[fervent orbit]

ever

i still remember how shit dest is

and last ive played cal was a WHILE

[north oracle]

Destroyer is awful

[fervent orbit]

so doze didnt know how to

[north oracle]

Just reskin destroyer smh

[fervent orbit]

so true

[toxic basalt]

@glass arch one idea that sprung to mind was putting on a cap on how many probes can be alive at a time

such as around 5-10 probes

if the max is reached. None will come out of destroyer until there are less than the max

[worldly basalt]

Probes would have to be more aggressive to compensate

[kindred skiff]

I rarely get hit by destroyer probes

[toxic basalt]

you mean the probes themselves or their lasers?

if it's the former, that's because they deal no contact dmg on Rev+

[kindred skiff]

Both

[glass arch]

ill see if i can add that

[drowsy plank]

@remote pasture okay so this is cool but also you should just tell the dev to message the cal devs himself

also that is not how to format a suggestion at all

nor the place to post something like that really?

[remote pasture]

Ok I deleted the comment so there is no issues

[north oracle]

average suggestions posting moment

[drowsy plank]

i was sort of hoping

that

you would tell the guy to come here himself but uh

that's

fine too i guess

[ripe owl]

What happened

Why do I keep missing all the interesting stuff?

[wide river]

A suggestion to make Calamity compatible with Advanced World Gen
Nothing else

[ripe owl]

Oh

[small timber]

@sharp iris how far are you away from it? because the "only" way to beat it definitely do not involve too much outmaneuver/running very very far away

at least from all the fights I done I havent have slime god to despawn yet, in fact it is kind of hard to out run it to the point of it despawning because it keep teleporting in front of you

you have to run so far away with like sandstorm jump to even be close to despawn it, or literally like 3-4 screens away'

[north oracle]

Only time I have it despawn is Infernum, but that’s their issue lol

You can just

Stay closer to the boss

[small timber]

my setup is of course not minmaxing speed

but I literally am unable to despawn it through purely just running away, you have to setup arena to repeatedly sandstorm jump it to even despawn it

at that point slime god will be barely on screen 90% of the fight

[north oracle]

maybe repeatedly hooking to recharge it and going up quite a bit too?

that's my guess anyway

[small timber]

at which point you are deliberately doing it to the point of trying to cheese it yeah

and despawning to certain degree is an anti-cheese mechanic aimed exactly at stopping this

[north oracle]

^

[small timber]

as long as it is not despawning at an unreasonably easy way (eg: you are just 1 screen apart instantly despawn) I think it is completely fine

(except Plantera which is exactly this)

[north oracle]

screw plantera despawn

[small timber]

plantera despawn literally 1 screen away

I still saw the tentacle at the edge of screen and it despawn instantly

[north oracle]

it's so dumb lol

[small timber]

which ironically Plantera already speed up if you are too far away (gain acceleration if moving in 1 direction) so it don't even make sense that it despawn this fast

[north oracle]

i can be trying to get it away from the bottom of my arena and it'll just suddenly despawn

[small timber]

@hollow shell oh right forgot about this, I think the "Slime God despawn" suggestion might be exclaimable?
since from first look I am literally unable to despawn it while purely running away from it with on tier gear

they have to move at exceedingly fast rate to even despawn it, and at that point they are just trying to cheese the boss (which is the point of the range despawning: to prevent the player from just outrunning 24/7)

and also that their reasoning is "the only way to fight Slime God is by outmaneuvering it" which is entirely not true, you can fight it perfectly fine without just offscreening it 90% of the fight (and it definitely don't despawn if you off screen it slightly or even by a lot)

[hollow shell]

Yeah I'll exclam it until they return to explain their setup

Also @sharp iris are you in multiplayer, and are you playing Infernum?

[sharp iris]

In multiplayer, happened in single player too before

[cold cosmos]

No that just happens for some reason

Infernum and rev+

Idk about expert below

It despawns vertically iirc

[hollow shell]

only answered 1 of the 3 questions 😠

Ok I guess someone test with as much vertical speed/acceleration as possible, then?

But uhh yeah mp
MP causes despawns a lot more often cuz of retargeting

[north oracle]

They're quite easy to despawn by moving vertically

i just BoB'd away from them up and to the left

could not despawn them by moving straight up

i could by fallgodding

jesus

it's not even easy to despawn them by moving diagonally by BoB

literally the only way i can consistently do this is by fallgodding

yeah, these despawns are a multiplayer thing

(this also answers the question about trying to cheese, as the only way in singleplayer appears to be fallgodding)

or getting exceptionally unlucky by running diagonally away

and yk
the point about having to outmanoeuvre them is just inaccurate

[sharp iris]

I mean on death mode there can be up to 6 high jumping fast slimes

[north oracle]

it's a max of 4

[sharp iris]

Master Death there can be 6

[north oracle]

...nope

it's always been 4, in rev or death and in master or expert

master death, there are 4 + the little slime

[sharp iris]

Oh yeah wait ur right

Js them teleporting makes me think that

[cobalt pewter]

isn't a chunk of this recent sugg just "bring yharon healing back because lo"

[small timber]

@abstract forge "add-back" = "revert"

and there is a reason they are removed to begin with

[cobalt pewter]

I forgot about the reasoning for the yharon one

actually

it's been a while

[small timber]

no 2 hp bar

and yharon never have a "cinematic transition" to begin with, just a regen

DoG have the sentinels phase which is known to be extremely buggy and is removed for a good reason

[cobalt pewter]

also yharon is already planned to have some kind of revival in the future Yharim fight (at least that's what I remembered last time they were talking about Yharim)

[small timber]

outside of that unironically DoG have a more cinematic entrance now because at that time DoG literally just respawn

no context, none; just pop in

[cobalt pewter]

also config :jaja

[cobalt pewter]

basically commit to your idea

config removes any sense of commitment to the sugg

plus config bloat

[small timber]

oh right I just realise at some point the Calclone brothers' relic suggestion probably should be exclaimed too; not a single "side boss" or "minion" current in the game have relics, they all have trophies

and calclone brothers already have trophies @hollow shell (it entered voting now)
(which is the basis of the suggestion: "trophy for calclone brothers" when they literally drop an item called "trophy")

and the suggestion try to convince of the case of Scal which also don't have brothers relics, but in fact have trophies which current calclone brothers also already have

and also if you are still here, "bosses regening their hp bar" is in fact, deliberately removed

quoted from Fabsol he hate that bosses hide how much their HP actually is behind a hidden regen mechanics, and it is quoted "a hill he will defend and die on"

and also if you give every boss a "SUPRIRSE I HAVE A SECRET HIDDEN PHASE 2" it just stop being surprising and completely lose meaning

eg: the storm weaver one you plan to suggest

and also no, even if you add "make this config so that it don't lag with other mods" do not work as a reasoning: you are fighting a calamity boss with calamity changes, if that is the case then it just means the transition is poorly optimized not that there should be a config to disable them, this is just trying to pad the reasoning to make it looks justifiable

for DoG he is meant to never die to begin with, so using the reason you give ("underestimated the opponent") it make more sense for him to retreat instead of just die and randomly respawn (which is what currently happen: DoG retreat and get the armor/exoskeleton and fight you for Phase 2)

for Yharon specifically it do not necessarily have to regen, but I do agree something should happen, and there is a suggestion specifically for yharon for that currently

#suggestions-voting message

[small timber]

the basis of the suggestion havent change eventhough the wording is changed

[small timber]

as stated, the "heal back" is, in fact, the main reason those transitions got removed

so it is the "heal back" part that is breaking the suggestion mainly

and FYI, Fabsol is basically the main developer of the mod (and also owner), and also the main guy doing all the bosses

so tldr is if you remove the "heal back" part of the suggestion it probably is fine, but at the same time your suggestion will basically be left with "give us fancy transition animation/cinematics"

I think the suggestion (title) can remove this part yeah, since the reasoning now is basically only "add more"

Introduce more**/add back (probably without the reverting part, though) some** clear and/or cinematic phase transitions.

(there are really not many cinematic transition to begin with outside of healing)

nah no need

it is fine now
(at least I think so)

[bright crag]

Indeed, DoG doesn't die
It just temporarily leaves to suit up

And yeah, unfortunately boss healing won't be added :p

I do suport the transitions being more cinematic, though

[austere cargo]

While I understand Fabsol's dislike of second health bars, Yharon is the Dragon of Rebirth. A single exception for him does seem reasonable.

[swift wharf]

yharon doing the regen for the first time you fight him would be nice

well for the first time you get to second phase

[cobalt pewter]

when you start making exceptions, you'll naturally default to adding more exceptions because "oh we set a precedent already"

naturally it's best to avoid doing any exceptions unless ABSOLUTELY needed

[fossil finch]

Me wanting to see yharons cool animation but its only on first time because people are allergic to transitions that last more than a second

Convinced that because of this subworld arenas are absolutely awful ideas because they take a couple seconds to load and youd need to access them every time for the bossfight

[golden tulip]

please use proper punctuation

holy lord

[cobalt pewter]

shrimply do not leave subworld then

[glass arch]

i dislike second healthbars/regenning healthbars

like it doesnt give you an accurate read of how much HP this thing really has

[fossil finch]

We honestly don't care either way but why would that be important

[half imp]

I like it for yharon on FTW/GFB

which should do it tbh

[fossil finch]

A lot of games don't even have numeric healthbars if you think about it

[half imp]

(missed opportunity that it doesn't do that)

[golden tulip]

do you genuinely care about this

[glass arch]

yes

if i fight, for example, emode mutant to 10% hp and then it regens the entire fucking hp bar i will immediately quit

[cobalt pewter]

Terraria is a numbers game obviously

[fossil finch]

The surprise element stops existing after one time so like wdk if the healthbar is accurate or not honestly it doesn't matter but removing the cinematic stuff from these phase transitions is awful

[golden tulip]

it only matters for the first time. after that youll be like "oh ok he has a second phase"

[glass arch]

even so it feels like a slap in the face

[swift wharf]

imagine

[cobalt pewter]

it's also why calclone's "first phase" SUCKED

[swift wharf]

no

[golden tulip]

but youll know it will happen lol

[swift wharf]

untrue

[fossil finch]

Not really

[cobalt pewter]

we all know it happened already

[swift wharf]

calclone first phase sucked

because calclone sucked

lmao

[cobalt pewter]

but it keeps happening all the time

[swift wharf]

unique ai

[cobalt pewter]

there was no first time check for this

[golden tulip]

how is the argument for fakeout phases not being a surprise anymore after the first time valid, but not for second health bars

[fossil finch]

Calcones first phase sucked because it didn't really convey any surprise either way and it was also literally just retinazer

[lucid flare]

remember when hive mind had 2 HP bars

[swift wharf]

when the problem is the boss and not the fakeout

[cobalt pewter]

tell that to Fab

[swift wharf]

Anyways remember when sentinels stopped appearing after you defeated dog

j u s t d o t h a t

but no

we get [no transition]

[lucid flare]

not even defeat dog u just had to get past the sentinels once

[swift wharf]

YEAH

[glass arch]

first time you get there and it immediately undoes all your progress in the fight for a "cool phase transition" it doesnt really make it a cool phase transition, it just makes it seem like everything you just did was for nothing

[swift wharf]

my point strengthens

[cobalt pewter]

clearly the simpler option for fab was to just remove calclone's fakeout instead of making it a Good Boss

[swift wharf]

SO TRUE

[golden tulip]

thats only the first time

[cobalt pewter]

basically why I give up on anything remotely related to bosses

[swift wharf]

so truer

[cobalt pewter]

looking at anything Else in calamity is much more interesting

[fossil finch]

Don't think many people even registered calclones first phase as a fakeout
Just as "oh the boss is lame the first 15% percent for no reason"

[golden tulip]

the argument for fakeout phases was "after the first time it wont be a surprise anymore" so why cant the same thing be true for second hp bars

youll KNOW it has a second hp bar

[glass arch]

i hate warrior of light almost exclusively because i cant tell how close i am to killing it because guess what 5 hp bars

[golden tulip]

you know how close you are

if youve been past 2 bars

theres 3 left

what

[glass arch]

by how many hp bars are left? how would i know that if its my first time fighting it

the boss should at least be readable when you start fighting it

[fossil finch]

All pizza tower bosses have second phases where they regen their health and none of them felt like a "fuck you, you weren't doing anything" whats the difference here exactly

[cobalt pewter]

some games tend to have multiple healthbars because it's easier to convey progress through 5 healthbars that scale down steadily throughout the fight than a single healthbar that Doesn't Move At All

[glass arch]

i dont play pizza tower

[cobalt pewter]

I think RPG games tend to do that

[glass arch]

in fact i never have played pizza tower

[glass arch]

the difference here is the fights usually arent 5 minutes long

[fossil finch]

No they usually are

Its an rpg those fights are long

[glass arch]

in terraria you should be dealing enough damage to not have the HP bar barely move

[cobalt pewter]

Fab sets arbitrary testing killtimes that makes fights unreasonably long

[glass arch]

no im talking about in terraria not the other rpgs

[fossil finch]

Not actually fab exactly but its true

[glass arch]

in terraria i know of 2 fights that are intended to be 5 minutes long, scal and exos

[half imp]

nah kill times are not too long tbh

Especially because it's not balanced around an offensive loadout

[swift wharf]

nor adrenaline nor rage

[half imp]

^

[swift wharf]

boss killtimes are so silly

[half imp]

They make sense imo

better than most metrics to gauge a boss

[glass arch]

exos is 3 (4 if you count twins as 2) bosses which explains why its long and scal has 5 different guaranteed 15 second long periods of invulnerability plus several more phases where she is also invulnerable

[half imp]

it's just some kill times are flat out not accurate to the boss

[swift wharf]

the average player will never have a tester setup so

[half imp]

that's fine

The goal isn't for the average player to get that time, it's for all the weapons to have a point of reference to balance them all off

[glass arch]

so for those bosses it makes sense why they're long, but the hp bars dont stay stagnant

[fossil finch]

Boss killtimes are silly in our opinion because they incentive only paying attention to the damage things are doing honestly but don't have anything to add onto that so you can easily choose to not care

[half imp]

scal but each BH, seekers, brothers, and sepulcher is seperates by a full hp bar

[glass arch]

that doesnt seem very fun

[fossil finch]

It's literally the same you're getting placebo'd by numbers on a bar

[half imp]

I mean, devs do balance stuff to purposely be slightly strong or slightly weak based on how easy it is to use

Like ark of the cosmos is intended to get something like 4:45 or 4:30 scal with parries instead of 5:00 iirc

[glass arch]

and while each bar would go down pretty fast it would still be extremely disheartening to see what, 7? 8? different HP bars

[half imp]

solution:

remove hp bars entirely

[glass arch]

not the numbers on the bar, the number of bars

[swift wharf]

there's a difference between yharon regening once and fucking
8 bars

[cobalt pewter]

make the player fight by feelings and visual indicator

the ultimate boss fight experience

no more numbers game

we all just unga bunga

[fossil finch]

AWESOME

Dark souls doesn't have hp numbers on the boss health bars right

Therefore

[cobalt pewter]

a lot of games don't

a nearby example is Dead Cells

[fossil finch]

Yeah exactly

[cobalt pewter]

relogic only added it in a 1.4.4 patch

decades after Terraria launch

[swift wharf]

i mean

[cobalt pewter]

then again this is terraria

[swift wharf]

bosses have a tiny bar

[cobalt pewter]

no I mean the numbers

[swift wharf]

or do they idr

[glass arch]

(havent there been numbers on boss health bars for ages because of yabhb and similar mods)

[swift wharf]

oh

[cobalt pewter]

they actually added numbers on hp bar sometime after 1.4.4

I think

I don't remember exactly when

[swift wharf]

oh you mean that

[cobalt pewter]

but it's a config

[cobalt pewter]

Terraria never had a native boss hp bar until 1.4

but in modded, yeah it's been there for a while

imagine in 1.3 vanilla you had to put your cursor on bosses to actually read numbers of their hp mid combat

no wonder terraria wiki is very cash money

[glass arch]

numbers on the vanilla hp bar arent necessary imo

what i really want is for the bar to not be fucking tiny

(not sure what its like in 1.4+ pc but on mobile they stick it under the minimap)

[cobalt pewter]

that's fair point, most games tend to have a separate interface or just be long

Dead Cells has boss hp bars across the horizontal space of the top screen

I think what the bar really needs right now (aside from enlargement) is styles

like the minimap borders

[glass arch]

YES

[cobalt pewter]

take the current one, strip it off most of its ornaments, and make it the basic style

then put the current one as one of the selectable styles

[swift wharf]

abhb did that

ror bars...

[drowsy plank]

we should bring back hive mind fake out

[random talon]

fuc off

[grim tusk]

I dmed mod mail already

[random talon]

cool

[grim tusk]

They will obliterate this idiot

[dense ferry]

Ok what

Whatever

[golden tulip]

epic

crypto