suggestions-discussion

[small timber]

oh right speaking of stat stick

[cobalt pewter]

okay good argument

[swift wharf]

nah, make it break some funny cap like concoction

[swift wharf]

I wonder if void of calamity and extinction would've gotten a rework if calclone got reworked

[hollow shell]

It's possible that it would have, however it's possible that it would not have

What happened with a lotta the Meld items (and is technically continuing to happen with a lot of the Meld items) made me pretty pessimistic to that prospect

i.e. nothing

even after their big re-theming

Or Levi's items not really getting significant changes (most notably Ambergris, a really boring accessory) after the huge Levi resprite and Siren/Anahita redesign
Same with Dragonfolly, very boring weps that haven't changed since 2017, even after the identity rework. At least its gotten good accs

... but Meld's was the most egregious

rage and hatred

more rage and hatred

[small timber]

oh right that piece of shit of an armor set

[hollow shell]

Very awesome resprites and re-theme to all of it
Fantastic visual rework

I only wish the functions kept up with it

[keen zodiac]

what did it look like before?

[crude geode]

Not the best

[cobalt pewter]

god

[cobalt pewter]

I really don't get it tbh

[small timber]

"I fire 6 projectile, 5 of which are identical and have massive softcap, and the last one that is different is lifesteal; my set bonus is 'I get some more damage when I take damage' "

and "below half HP, I get a downgraded version of the buff you can get aka Profaned Rage and Holy Wrath for 12% so I just occupy 2 buff slots for no reason"

[fathom aspen]

Rogue and their 10000th extra projectile from armor/acc/potion

It can be smth else for sure

[crude geode]

Empyrean armor is like. one of the least original armors, especially next to the most original ones in vanilla

[hollow shell]

Yeah it is a disgrace next to Solar, Vortex, Nebula, and Stardust
Each having unique, cohesive, and understandable effects
that each affect how the player plays while using the armor, allowing them to strategize around their new ability

Xeroc Armor, now Empyrean Armor, is just

And each of those random bullshit projectiles were / are already used by other Calamity armor set bonuses,
most notably Ataxia (now Hydrothermic)
(in behavior, that is)
meaning Empyrean is not only boring and impossible to strategize with, but also samey and unoriginal

Despite you wearing the skin of a dead god

It should be incredibly weird and awesome
Not one of the most boring set bonuses in the game

[swift wharf]

what about non rogue empyrean gear

[hollow shell]

I'm just talking about the armor set but yeah the other legacy weapons could use some a lot of help too
God's Bellows has no gimmick, it's just a flamethrower
Entropic Claymore is just a homing projectile broadsword
and the aforementioned Tome of Fates is a Hex Doll clone that still fires a brimstone projectile

[swift wharf]

Hear me out

Tome of Fates gets moved to lunatic cultist, because yes
Entropic Claymore becomes the meld hammaxe, because it needs one
What is god's bellows

[cobalt pewter]

I think Empyrean armor could facilitate hybrid rogue gameplay if it gets reworked in 2041

I think (?) the devs are starting to integrate such things with Raider's Talisman

[hollow shell]

To align it better with the other Pillar sets?

[swift wharf]

Yes

[cobalt pewter]

meld gear is weird

the armor is rogue, yet its weapons are all class

[hollow shell]

You could do that I guess
Not really the important concern though

[small timber]

"Temporary increase Rogue attack speed that gradually decrease over the duration after you perform a stealth strike; Increase Stealth Regeneration as you attack with non-stealth strike and guaranteed crit if it reach ___ stack and dispel all stacks on your next stealth strike"

[swift wharf]

entropic claymore looks so cool I dont want it gone

[cobalt pewter]

awooghuh?

what are you cooking

[small timber]

since you said empyrean armor should be like raider's talisman for hybrid build

[swift wharf]

but where is the cool gimmick

[small timber]

vortex entire gimmick is shroomite stealth but mobile, solar is basically just beetle with a dash, nebula has a gimmick but it boil down to "increase 3 stats" and stardust who

[swift wharf]

but they look cool

[hollow shell]

The devs often give the excuse that it's not meant to be a perfect analogue to the other Pillar sets...
despite the fact that that was never an intentional design choice. The only reason it's like that, before Rogue was added, was because it literally just wasn't any class's Pillar fragment at all, it was a redundant all-class set that was added in one of the first versions of Calamity just because.

Now it is rogue's fragment, though. The transition was half-hearted and had hoarder/sentimental mentality to its detriment
The only benefit to the "It's not an exact analog" mindset is that we still have those three shitty old weapons that they didn't even bother updating

[swift wharf]

and redundant materials

Because crafting meld constructs is fun and unique

: )

[small timber]

and also "it is not supposed to be fragment armor" is just an excuse for like, a dead boring armor set

even if it is not a fragment armor it should not be just random bullshit go

[fathom aspen]

entropic claymore being only a better briny baron

[swift wharf]

truly

[hollow shell]

I don't really care about whether those 3 non-rogue weps stay or go
They do indeed look cool, great Inanis concepts

but if they stay, then their functions need to be changed to live up to their potential coolness

[small timber]

meanwhile there is still donator weapon backlog

0 copium soon we will get unique meld weapon

[hollow shell]

I could just write a real-ass suggestion about Meld myself
Now that I'm not a dev anymore

... but it probably wouldn't do anything, really
Nothing within the next year at least

[cobalt pewter]

mhm

[hollow shell]

Too much design for an implement-able sugg

especially for a dev team with no more artists n spriters

[cobalt pewter]

.22 bullet incident

okay I won't continue here

this place is supposed to be pristine of that bs

[hollow shell]

Only suggs that get in are ones that can be added by a programmer in an hour, really

[cobalt pewter]

anyways yeah too big of an effort to become a sugg

[ruby plover]

I think, like

Keeping the two rogue weapons would be fine, and then… well
Maybe just deleting the other meld weaps?

Cos I think the point is that their current functionality is bland and outdated

So it’s the question of whether it should be saved, or kicked to the dust

[small timber]

I think the idea was like all fragments should be beneficial for all class or something

but yeah, that idea is a bit scuffed since melt is basically extra material

[ruby plover]

Antumbra and SoD are… alright, functionality wise
Though if the latter was faster, it would be much better cos it’s unusable on ML, I think. Iirc.

[small timber]

SoD have really high skill cap too, but antumbra is a bit boring

you can get 2 minute moon lord kill with star of destruction

[ruby plover]

Antumbra “stars” have a cool sprite, but in reality they are uh…. Not quite stars, heh

[cobalt pewter]

Antumbra is boring yea

it's just throw

[ruby plover]

Literally can’t see em with the ML shader

[cobalt pewter]

at least with SoD you're rewarded for hitting the big fuckoff disk enough

[hollow shell]

byeah the rogue weps are fine because they were added with the Meld rework, therefore they were designed by a more competent team and had the current Meld theme in mind

[ruby plover]

Could always just pull a “rework or delete the non-rogue meld weaps”

[hollow shell]

(okay actually yeah Shard is pretty boring and also I'm wrong, it existed under the old Xeroc theme as a throwing wep)

[ruby plover]

Yeah, I coulda sworn

Xeroc pitchfork

[frail mantle]

Toenail set

[cobalt pewter]

why did you do this

[hollow shell]

canonical toenail set

[small timber]

shard is literally non-gravity affected bone javelin I think

[frail mantle]

Cause that was its old lore

[cobalt pewter]

gdo

[frail mantle]

Something something “made of the flesh, blood and nails of its old wearer”

[hollow shell]

yep

Then big rewrite, for the better imo

[frail mantle]

Now it’s just wacky zany space god bits

[hollow shell]

I had a whole ton of lore hinty tooltip stuff planned for the Meld set
pertaining to my planned Meld lore explanation
which I was quite proud of

but uhh yeah The Incident happened before either of those saw the light of day

[frail mantle]

Death

[hollow shell]

("The Incident" isn't really the right phrasing because it was actually a very gradual erosion of faith)

(but yeah sorry thas all drama)

[frail mantle]

No incident, just Time

[crude geode]

I love how much this oversimplifies things

Stardust gets kinda. shit on for no good reason when it’s the inspiration for 90% of cal summoner sets having unique minions slapped on em

and it’s implementation is usually about as good as pre-1.4 stardust

[hollow shell]

The idea of a non-player character drawing aggro, that you could direct and place around, was very interesting and fitting for the summoner class
It was just uhh too little too late I guess, and not as much fun as the other post-game armors

[small timber]

its damage is also, er... this
and of course bosses not being able to draw aggro on it dont help either

[swift wharf]

[drowsy plank]

@small timber oh this is old but uh

[small timber]

oh right I forgot they actually buffed this

[drowsy plank]

lol

[ashen warren]

void of extinction has the tragic problem of being orphaned by crafting tree simplifications

just like honey dew, fungal clump, and leviathan ambergris

also a bit late to point this out but rover drive got removed from the absorber/sponge recipe

[swift wharf]

honey dew is actually good though

ampoule, however

[ashen warren]

ampoule has the second highest number of debuff immunities in the game (counting all ankh shield upgrades as one item)

iirc 4 of the 5 end up being absorbed into the ankh line regardless

[swift wharf]

Except that pretty much nothing inflicts those debuffs at that point

[ashen warren]

cursed flame is in the exo fight

[safe oasis]

why'd they remove the only good debuff immunity it had

venom immunity against scourge was huge

[swift wharf]

yes i will use ambrosial ampoule in exo mechs

[ashen warren]

so which post-DoG accessory has room

(this is a joke)

[swift wharf]

living dew clearly

[ashen warren]

living dew post DoG??

[swift wharf]

yes

dog dew

[ashen warren]

wait what the fuck

why are there so many plaguebringer accessories

[swift wharf]

[ashen warren]

it’s 4 that are all truly so similar

and why the fuck is plague hive locked behind ancient manipulator

[swift wharf]

because

#suggestions-voting message

[drowsy plank]

pbg my beloved
pbg drops my beloathed

bring back the fucked up version of plague hive at this point who even give a shit it's so fuckin bad right now

[swift wharf]

no

come use 4 reskins of the same accessory

[ashen warren]

i love radioactive green

[drowsy plank]

[gray nebula]

<><><<<><><><><><><><><>

[small timber]

@hollow shell there is a really funny suggestion in posting

[cobalt pewter]

ban them for that btw

[gilded scroll]

we have a funny person.

[novel belfry]

A post meculiar fellow

[cloud surge]

💀

[ashen warren]

truly one of the suggestions of all time

[cloud surge]

too bad its instantly getting accepted

[drowsy plank]

damn bro this shit is so funny i forgot to laugh

you know what's even funnier is that if you just tweaked some of the numbers to be more reasonable this weapon wouldn't even be that good if it was attempted to be balanced in any serious capacity

[swift wharf]

you know

is it sad that part of me wishes it was a valid suggestion

because frost legion is so fucking useless

😭

[distant gyro]

true but like cope

[swift wharf]

ANOTHER ONE???????

WHAT

[distant gyro]

frost legion will never be relevant

event is damn cosmetic

[swift wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[errant bobcat]

Do people not understand that they can’t suggest specific items, read the rules people

[swift wharf]

suggestion posting today

[glass arch]

hey iris can you ❗ those

[distant gyro]

true

[crude geode]

What’s reading

[errant bobcat]

True

[distant gyro]

wait i can do that

[crude geode]

Not that I recall

Pretty sure it has to be mod

[distant gyro]

i cant delete though this sucks

[swift wharf]

I sense another one coming

[distant gyro]

[glass arch]

same

[swift wharf]

[errant bobcat]

Me when the no read

[rotund tree]

devs can react in posting and voting

[crude geode]

Funny

[distant gyro]

it's only react perms

[crude geode]

I remember a time where they couldn’t

[glass arch]

the anticipation for the next sugg is killing me

[swift wharf]

Place your bets

It's gonna be an aureus balance suggestion

I can feel it

[glass arch]

im guessing an SIS

[crude geode]

Who’s aureus

[glass arch]

space crab.

[swift wharf]

the guy from pokemon

[stoic oasis]

Phaseslayer buff

[small timber]

Next suggestion will be just "Add Dinasours" or something

[swift wharf]

🐊 🍋

[stoic oasis]

(100% impossible)

[small timber]

Start of HM dinasours will spawn in jungle but at postGolem all of them died from the plague (nuke)

[glass arch]

(real)

[drowsy plank]

nah they die after cryogen

because what killed the dinosaurs

the ice age

[dense ferry]

"Add my OC please"

[stoic oasis]

Dinosaurs should be pre-HM and they die after a meteorite or astral meteor crash

[swift wharf]

this reminds me of that meme where 3 ppl are betting on which lobster will win the fight

[small timber]

That said I just realise suneater is literally just mutated dinasours

Wait not suneater, the profaned enemy

[glass arch]

scorn eaters?

[stoic oasis]

scorn eaters rework

we need this

[slow lodge]

Acorn

[glass arch]

the typing stopped i think

[drowsy plank]

nah he's still there

[glass arch]

nvm

[swift wharf]

Take your time son

[slow lodge]

What's going on

[small timber]

Calamity lore rework: now including canon dinasour lore (real)

[slow lodge]

Someone typing the entire calamity lore

[drowsy plank]

three people showed up at the same time and we're banking on them all being invalid suggestions

[glass arch]

double SIS and now we're taking bets on what the next ones gonna be

[swift wharf]

[rotund tree]

suggestions people waiting for the user to finish typing their suggestion after 15 minutes just for another specific item suggestion

[slow lodge]

Fucking ikeamancer fr

[frail mantle]

[glass arch]

true!

[swift wharf]

Almost sent a message there accidentally

[drowsy plank]

that would've been funny

[swift wharf]

🗜️

[slow lodge]

Anyway

Aureus is pretty useful for the aureus cells

[swift wharf]

Mans really gonna type 15 lines to get ❗

[slow lodge]

Mages benefit from them

[swift wharf]

No I think it's gonna be like

[slow lodge]

And the starcore needs them

[drowsy plank]

aureus cells are weird

[swift wharf]

Fabsol Calamity you little fuicker... you made a shit of piece with your trash aureus i will become back my money

[crude geode]

Astrum Aureus is more useful than Deus ngl

[slow lodge]

Eh

[swift wharf]

idk astral armor is kinda based

[slow lodge]

Fragments without the event

[drowsy plank]

deus lets you get astral bars and bars let you craft deific

[swift wharf]

different timeline wheere deus is the ML alt boss

[crude geode]

One accessory, woah

[glass arch]

aureus is space crabulon.

[drowsy plank]

i mean it's a really good one

[slow lodge]

And you don't have to do lunar events unless you want the rogue stuff

[slow lodge]

Deific amulet goes hard

[drowsy plank]

it also has TBB and Ethereal Core locked behind it so like

[slow lodge]

So does the rampart

[crude geode]

TBB?

[drowsy plank]

true biome

[glass arch]

true biome blade

[crude geode]

God

[swift wharf]

IT WAS A SIS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[crude geode]

Can we make acronyms a bannable offense

[glass arch]

CALLED IT

[swift wharf]

BITCH !

[crude geode]

[rotund tree]

[drowsy plank]

I KNEW IT

[swift wharf]

[drowsy plank]

AHAHAHA

wait wait check this

[swift wharf]

racial slurs ⚡⚡⚡

[frail mantle]

@fervent fossil specific item suggestions aren't allowed

[fervent fossil]

Damn

[frosty trellis]

''Tis the season to be sissy"

[glass arch]

true!

[crude geode]

Lemme go post a sis that instantly kills ravager real fast

[frosty trellis]

LOL

[crude geode]

And does nothing else

[drowsy plank]

i knew it was gonna be a floe reimplement bc they've sent like 6 messages in total and it was just this

[frosty trellis]

(Impossible)

[swift wharf]

[frosty trellis]

Plffffff

[slow lodge]

rip coldheart

[fervent fossil]

Damn

[slow lodge]

Reminded me of that

[drowsy plank]

cal adds 500 broadswords and still only one manages to be good (stellar striker)

[crude geode]

I want great removal 2.0 NOW

Mainly to piss off more people

[drowsy plank]

i want it so we dont have to worry about bucky's crazy glowstick sword accidentally getting melee speed buffs and being able to kill exo mechs in 0.2 seconds or something

[small timber]

Since there are 3 there will be a 4th

New people come here, see it, dont understand the emote and just post it

[crude geode]

we are not the same

[drowsy plank]

tru

[crude geode]

Anyways yeah can we make astral ore less dogshit 🥺

[drowsy plank]

how so

[crude geode]

It’s crafts feel kinda. lackluster for something teased for all of hardmode

[swift wharf]

I pray everyday to God so terraflameburster dies and goes to hell no matter what

[drowsy plank]

okay that's fair

[small timber]

"The Great Liberator"

Upgrade to Black Hawk Remote control, summon a fighter jet that scales with the number of minion slot you put into it, 1-3 slots it can fire gatling gun round, 4 slots and onwards it can fire missiles, 6 slots it is surrounded by 5 smaller bombers and 10 slots and onwards it can transform into a gigantic mech suit at 0.001% per frame that delete the boss from existence for being too powerful

[drowsy plank]

the items could be made a bit more interesting

[swift wharf]

something something making astral more fleshy and alien

[crude geode]

Especially when the hallmark items are kinda. unoriginal

and generic af

But that’s also most generic ore crafts so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[drowsy plank]

me when astral hasn't changed since implementation

it's just like meld fr fr

[fossil finch]

We have a SIS bingo oh my god

[gray nebula]

[safe crypt]

Holy hell 3 in a row

[hybrid steeple]

calamity suggestors read the rules challenge

[errant bobcat]

You realize there’s already 3 direct upgrades to black hawk remote

[swift wharf]

[errant bobcat]

Tactical plauge engine, cosmic viper engine, flamsteed ring

[crude geode]

I love sarcasm in this channel

Flamsteed being considered a part of that line is so cringe

[errant bobcat]

True

[crude geode]

Idk why you lumped it in

[errant bobcat]

It’s practically a rouge weapon

[swift wharf]

donor recipes

[errant bobcat]

I mean it’s crafted with viper engine so I just did

[errant bobcat]

Oh wait I read it out of context oops

[crude geode]

Lmaooooo

[drowsy plank]

me when im a rouge weapon (rouge is a color, rogue is the class)

[novel belfry]

the rouge rogue weapon

[hollow shell]

@ashen warren @ashen warren @fervent fossil Read the Suggestion Don'ts doc, suggs like that are not allowed

(official verbal warning to Ikeamancer too because that's a meme suggestion)

[safe oasis]

rouge is a character from sonic actually

[drowsy plank]

it was a color first

[fervent orbit]

why r u thinking of the bat lady right now?

[blazing kettle]

your the one calling her pretty

[fervent orbit]

huh

[ashen warren]

i know its technically an SIS but you don't have to take everything as it was said

just adding some sort of item that allows you to expend all your adrenaline in one strike would be good and make fights such as yharon much less annoying

[hollow shell]

The suggestion should be phrased as such then

[frosty trellis]

Also like

Why

Why do we need more things like that

[swift wharf]

"well it would be cool"

[hollow shell]

As it was, it was definitely an SIS

᠎Adrenaline Syringe

• Either Accessory or Favoritable Item
• Revengeance exclusive
• When adrenaline bar fills up, it allows you to activate it to make your next attack do (30 * attack speed percentage)% more damage (to scale up with attack speed).
• Essentially turns adrenaline into a stealth-like attack where a singular attack does the same amount of damage as a full adrenaline rush
• Very useful for bosses that often go invincible or are extremely difficult to hit precisely cough cough Yharon and DOG cough cough

[swift wharf]

how is yharon hard to hit

[ashen warren]

yeah i realised if i removed the name and jsut typed out the function it would be better

[swift wharf]

it would still be a sis

[hollow shell]

And removed the exact calculation

[ashen warren]

not talking about him specifically for the "hard to hit" part

[frosty trellis]

Adrenaline is already hilariously overpowered
And we have another item that increases adren recharge rate which also increases movement speed and that is hilariously broken

[swift wharf]

because fun

:)))

[frosty trellis]

Also like, the mod doesn't need to be easy

Yharon is not supposed to be easy in any regard

[ashen warren]

i included the calculation to make sure that weapons with lower attack rates wouldnt suffer

[swift wharf]

the calculation makes it even more sis

[hollow shell]

The idea seems really (really) hard to balance but I guess it has potential?

[swift wharf]

formula whatever

[frosty trellis]

Took me 100+ Yharon fights before I finally got his pattern fully down and started to get my strat for fighting him down

So like

Shit is going to be hard for newer players

[swift wharf]

wouldn't this just

[frosty trellis]

Deal with it

[swift wharf]

remove the adrenalien hit

[ashen warren]

im just saying i have noticed that him and some other bosses that go invincible but SPECIFICALLY yharon goes invincible like half of the time hes alive, so it's basically a gamble whether your adrenaline is going to have any actual impact or not

[swift wharf]

so you use the thing and dont have to worry about getting hit

[frosty trellis]

Wait okay
So it would change adren to affect attack speed instead of damage?

[swift wharf]

leech ampoule in terraria...

[frosty trellis]

That sounds even more broken than current adren what the hell

[swift wharf]

no

it uses attack speed in the formula

[frosty trellis]

Wait so it adds attack speed to the damage?

[ashen warren]

[swift wharf]

executioner blade

[ashen warren]

no

[hollow shell]

Well you don't need to give your exact idea of what you think a balanced calc would be
You can just include in the suggestion that you want it to be balanced for all attack speeds

The problem with having an exact calc is that people will argue over how your specific proposal would be balanced, and support over the sugg's overall idea will get bogged down by balancing minutiae

[hollow shell]

I'm not sure I understand

[frosty trellis]

I'm super confused on how this item would work then

[ashen warren]

well i thought i wouldn't have to put WARNING DONT TAKE THIS SUPER LITERALLY at the top but i guess i did

[hollow shell]

You already don't lose adren if it's activated and currently draining when you get hit

[swift wharf]

this sounds like what if we made adrenaline work like adrenaline but based on item instead

[frosty trellis]

And legit I don't need more headaches with Adrenaline when it's already hilariously overpowered

[swift wharf]

wdym headaches

[frosty trellis]

Terribly sorry that you broke the rules

[swift wharf]

boss kill times dont count adrenaline

[frosty trellis]

I don't care

[ashen warren]

i don't even know what we're talking about right now

[hollow shell]

You proposed it as an exact formula, you didn't even say "for example"
Of course people will take it literally

[frosty trellis]

Bloody thirsty final Dawn W stealth with rage + adren does 47% to Thanatos in one stealth strike

[ashen warren]

yeah that was my fault

[swift wharf]

yeah this is kinda 100% your fault for not reading the don't doc

t b h

[ashen warren]

i just wanted to mention somewhere hey this should scale with attack speed so chaingun or smth like that wouldnt be trash with it

[frosty trellis]

Also Adren does this
And I'm in tester gear, so only 3 menacing

So yes, we don't need more adren shit

It's already broken

[swift wharf]

now do that with artemis and apollo

[frosty trellis]

PLEASE NO

Melee speed is already a stupid fucking mechanic

We don't need it to be even more broken

[ashen warren]

i said attack speed

like

[swift wharf]

anyways cant you just

[frosty trellis]

Yes

[ashen warren]

just fire rate

[frosty trellis]

Melee speed

[swift wharf]

ask for chaingun to be good

[frosty trellis]

Is attack speed

[ashen warren]

for any weapon

[swift wharf]

or something

[hollow shell]

You can re-propose the suggestion with avoidance of SIS in mind

[swift wharf]

like #1042197406776827914 exists

[frosty trellis]

Melee speed increases attack speed

So yes

[ashen warren]

you know what i meant

[frosty trellis]

Melee speed would affect it, no?

[swift wharf]

if a weapon is bad just say that it's bad in #1042197406776827914 😭

[ashen warren]

its not a weapon change

[hollow shell]

Ooze meant specifically for their proposal

[swift wharf]

balancing hell instead of making some stuff better idk

[ashen warren]

i just dont want higher fire rate weapons to suffer more than lower fire rate ones with the adrenaline 1-shot thing

[frosty trellis]

Okay give me two weapons on the same tier, one that fires slowly, the other fast, and I'll see how much adren does as I'm fairly good at video games

[swift wharf]

now I am very confused

[hollow shell]

byeah in the case of making adren into a single shot thing, you need to take attack speed into account or else rapid fire weps would get cucked hard

[frosty trellis]

Let's prove this is as bad as you say before you go on doing this

I just need a fast firing and a slow firing weapon on the same tier and I can make it work

[swift wharf]

elf melter as the fast one

[frosty trellis]

That isn't hilariously overpowered*

[swift wharf]

idk p90

and shotgun

[hollow shell]

(I don't agree with the suggestion cuz it seems like much ado about nothing but I'm tryin to clear up the confusion so that you're arguing against his actual proposal and not a mistaken interpretation of it)

[frosty trellis]

Aight bet, so probably want to try this out on like skeletron prime phase 2 then

To get the maximum damage from the spinning attack

[swift wharf]

btw is p90 actually bad or

[frosty trellis]

I don't believe so

[swift wharf]

I used it in this update and it was good

[ashen warren]

can you argue against my idea rather than just arguing for the sake of arguing

i literally dont understand what your point is

[frosty trellis]

I'm going to go see how much low attack speed and high attack speed weapons differ with adren before we make this crazy item that affects attack speed with a one shot type weapon

[hollow shell]

Yeah MPG and Eclipse there was no question about current Adrenaline being equally good among fast and slow firing weapons

That is not a problem Ooze's proposal was trying to solve

[ashen warren]

^^^

[swift wharf]

I see it now

but cant you just time it better

[ashen warren]

i mean i guess

[hollow shell]

Ooze's proposal was trying to resolve you wasting your Adren because you activated it just before an invincibility phase / phase transition animation

[ashen warren]

^ this

[swift wharf]

is the difference between high and low fire rate really that big

[ashen warren]

scal brimstone skull phase, yharon every 3 seconds, dog after teleport

its not a huge change i just think it would improve qol and overall playability

[frosty trellis]

Isn't that the entire reason Yharon has like 6 different DR phases so you don't melt him?

[ashen warren]

no

[swift wharf]

let's say that you activate the adrenaline 2 seconds before the invincibility phase
the fast one hits 15 times in two seconds
the slow one hits 3 times in two seconds

[frosty trellis]

He transitions phases, becomes stationary in the process and gains a bunch of Dr so you don't just pop adren there and then to just melt bosses

[swift wharf]

oh yeah i think it is

[ashen warren]

he becomes invincible actually

[swift wharf]

100% dr

[frosty trellis]

He becomes stationary so during subphase transitions he doesn't cheap shot you

[frosty trellis]

No

I can personally attest to how that's not true

He gains dr, not becomes invicible

I have fought Yharon over 500 times, I would know

[hollow shell]

He only gets big DR during phase transitions because they're... phase transitions, short downtimes where he is sitting still just to do a cool thing to indicate his behavior is changing

The transitions themselves are not anti-melt safeguards by design

[frosty trellis]

Fair

But they help with anti melting

Since melting a boss is like, why

[swift wharf]

but if it wasnt by design there would be no need to raise his dr

[frosty trellis]

SCal has hp stoppers so you can't just melt her

[ashen warren]

okay listen

[hollow shell]

I am cautious about this argument because this line of thinking is what caused Reactive DR to get added to the mod
which people ended up vehemently hating

[ashen warren]

i didnt get into the real grit about balancing because that would be way too specific

i was just suggesting a general idea of how maybe you could have a system to expend your adrenaline in a very short time on command

because it would improve the playability of the mod

[swift wharf]

not really general byeah

[frosty trellis]

RDR was an inheritly not fun mechanic because it ended up making weapons deal -8 damage by the end of the fight since RDR was up at all times and not just activated when you used adrenaline or anything

[ashen warren]

i'm not saying yharon is too difficult but i think he would be much much less annoying to fight if you didn't have to constantly get annoyed by his dr phases ruining your adren

it makes the fight longer and less fun

[frosty trellis]

I don't see a problem with a boss having a period of invulnerability or Dr at certain points of the fight, but having reactive DR for the entire fight is what made the mechanic bad

[frosty trellis]

That is incredibly subjective

I find Yharon a really fun fight and I haven't used rippers on Yharon for the last 480 or so times I've fought Yharon

[swift wharf]

whats the current kt

[frosty trellis]

4 minutes for Yharon

[swift wharf]

zamn

[ashen warren]

i do think he's really fun

[hollow shell]

For the average person, Adrenaline is hard to get
So having that reward of chunking the boss's HP get ripped away by a poorly placed phase transition feels bad to experience

[frosty trellis]

DoG is 4 minutes
SCal is 5 minutes
Exos is 6 (ideally 2 minutes per mech)

[ashen warren]

you aren't arguing against my point you're just arguing against small details

[ashen warren]

this as well ^

i also wanted to mention that a player that has already mastered the mechanics of the game has no place to shoot down balance changes to annoying mechanics because they have already gotten used to them

[hollow shell]

(debatable)

[ashen warren]

the dr phases for yharon are extremely annoying and it's very disheartening to see your adrenaline you saved up get wasted

[frosty trellis]

Yeah that is understandable

However

You could also argue that can be used as a way of making players learn the fight better, knowing when the phase transitions are through trial and error and practice so you don't do that

The other problem with this argument in terms of Yharon are his bullet hells in which he is invincible and cannot be damaged, and then you waste your adrenaline there anyways, so therefore, that's not really a good argument to be made

[ashen warren]

duke fishron has the same subphase mechanics without major dr, but he doesn't get melted

[frosty trellis]

Because you don't have weapons that deal a stupid amount of damage or ammunition that break everything

Also you underestimate the sheer power of adren if you think you can't just melt him

Nohitters get dq'd a lot for just melting phase 3 duke in a matter of 3 seconds

[ashen warren]

well then the problem lies with the weapon balancing, not my idea

[swift wharf]

duke also turns invisible and invincible in hid last phase

[ashen warren]

saying "idea bad because some weapon would be op!!! even more op!!!" isnt a valid argument

[swift wharf]

and he does get melted

[hollow shell]

uh ohhhh nohit rules

[swift wharf]

lo

[frosty trellis]

And your idea is an absolute balancing nightmare

[ashen warren]

and how would that be

[swift wharf]

ok actually this is an weapon issue on duke t bh

time to balance every single weapon in the game again with the new adrenaline type

[frosty trellis]

It's just giving an example
Death duke fishron enters phase 3 at about 30% if I remember correctly, so if you have the aim you can quite easily just pop adren and melt him very quickly

[ashen warren]

no

[swift wharf]

yes

[frosty trellis]

Adrenaline can deal really stupid amounts of damage to bosses

[ashen warren]

i dont understand why or how it would be overpowered in any way??

[swift wharf]

otherwise some obscure weapon will start one shotting bosses

[frosty trellis]

Because Adrenaline is already extremely overpowered

[ashen warren]

but that doesn't make a point against my suggestion

my suggestion isn't making adrenaline better, it's making it less annoying to use

[frosty trellis]

It's 200-245% damage increase for 5 seconds which is enough to do 40%+ to late game bosses, obliterate early game bosses in one adren and do upwards of 80% to hardmode bosses in tester gear

[frosty trellis]

That ruins
The entire point
Of Adrenaline then

[hollow shell]

We have an accessory called The Bee that used to scale in strength based on your attack speed
And it was SO difficult to balance
It was meant to be good for slow weps like Scarlet Devil, just as good as with fast weps, but it ended up being WAY too good for those slow weps and created a balance monster

[swift wharf]

we know that is the point, but it is not that simple

you're pretty much adding a second adrenaline with that

[ashen warren]

that's why I suggested that the higher attack speed the weapon has, the more it benefits the multiplier

[frosty trellis]

Adrenaline isn't supposed to be the easiest thing to use in the later stages where everything hits you more often and bosses have measures to prevent cheese

[swift wharf]

anyways just uhhg fix the bosses maybe

[frosty trellis]

That

no

That's even worse

[ashen warren]

so a weapon like SDMG would get a 100x boost in damage rather than a weapon like scarlet devil that would only get a 10x boost

[ashen warren]

how

[frosty trellis]

Because attack speed and armor penetration can already cause shit to break in three

We don't need more things breaking attack speed

[ashen warren]

still not explaining how

how is it breaking attack speed?

[swift wharf]

how about
making the boss phases less annoying

[ashen warren]

that would be a major rework

[swift wharf]

compared to this?

[ashen warren]

yeah basically

[swift wharf]

how

couldn't you just reduce their dr or smth

[ashen warren]

theres very minor balances that have to be made because most of it is handled by the calculation

atleast i think so

[hollow shell]

Have fun reducing the "DR" of Scal's bullet hell phases

[frosty trellis]

Higher attack speed weapons if you give them armor penetration suddenly deal way more damage than intended because you are proccing armor pen more
Combine that with an even higher multiplier on said attack speed stuff and you can get some stupid combos

If it's a one shot thing, then you get one shot on something like SDFMG and then continue firing immediately as fast as you were before, as with Anti Material Rifle you have to keep waiting again until you can shoot again, making faster firing weapons just overall better

[swift wharf]

not those phases smh smh

[ashen warren]

???

that doesn't make any sense

[frosty trellis]

Is that not what you proposed?

Making adren a one shot thing instead of a 5 seconds thing?

[ashen warren]

not really

[swift wharf]

I think the proposition is

[ashen warren]

its an option to make it that way

an item you can favorite or an accessory

[swift wharf]

give the player a way to use all of the adrenaline potential damage in one shot

[ashen warren]

to do so

[ashen warren]

^ exactly

[frosty trellis]

So okay then my explaination is correct in that regard

That's how I interpreted it

[swift wharf]

armor pen won't do much tho I think

[ashen warren]

so how would it benefit fast firing weapons more than slow firing ones?

[swift wharf]

since you only armor penetrate once

youll*

[hollow shell]

I mean theoretically this doesn't need to take attack speed into account or necessarily be focused on exactly one weapon usage

It can be an accessory that makes Adren last for 1/5th of the time but deal 5x more damage

[frosty trellis]

You have weapons like SDFMG which will get the one shot with the power of full adren from all 5 seconds and then continue firing immediately afterwards

Then you have stuff like Norfleet or Anti Material Rifle that fire slowly and then you have to wait to attack again, so after that one shot you still have to keep waiting

Which in turn would make faster fire rate weapons better

[ashen warren]

i mean that could work

[frosty trellis]

That sounds
Horribly broken

[ashen warren]

omg how

[frosty trellis]

Alright time to just skip a bullet hell with Tyrannys End

[swift wharf]

less adrenaline cooldown kinda

[ashen warren]

skip a bullet hell?

[swift wharf]

1 second of adrenaline would mean that it would start recharging 4 seconds earlier

[frosty trellis]

As I learned when doing ridiculous shit with Traitorous, you can skip SCal's bullet hells if you do enough damage in one hit to do 20-25% of her health

[hollow shell]

That is basically the point of Ooze's sugg yeah
To not get gated by HP transitions

[ashen warren]

what I had in mind with it is basically an item that functionally turns adrenaline into stealth that depletes when you get hit

[hollow shell]

We could account for that
1 sec of Adren plus 4 secs of being bottomed with no charging

[frosty trellis]

That sounds absolutely horrifying

[swift wharf]

oh yea true

no stress pill abuse

[frosty trellis]

Current Traitorous can skip all of SCal's bullet hells if timed right without adrenaline

[hollow shell]

It will definitely cause.. issues, among the meta players

[swift wharf]

what's traitorous again

[frosty trellis]

Traitorous is an Enchantment that when you're below 50% mana, has an 8.5% chance to spawn a little guy per use
This little guy has a very modest base damage of 165000, affected by magic damage equipment and modifiers

[ashen warren]

fuck them meta players

[swift wharf]

oh yeah the funny

[frosty trellis]

Ik it's a post scal enchant but like

[ashen warren]

the whole point of terraria is that there isn't supposed to be a meta, you're supposed to play how you want to play

[frosty trellis]

It just gives an idea

[swift wharf]

"Dont be a meta slut, be a meta pimp" -spook

[ashen warren]

adding a "right way" to play the game makes it inherently unfun

[frosty trellis]

That bhs with slow firing weapons that deal immense amonts of damage in one hit can just skip an entire phase of a fight

[swift wharf]

anyways scal gear being good on scal hell naw...
(ignore it being good in exo mechs for this moment)

[ashen warren]

post plantera gear shreds calamitas clone

i dont understand your point with the exo mechs

[hollow shell]

Okay, this will also be problematic but probably less problematic:

Pausing activated Adrenaline drain during boss phase transitions or bullet hells

So, you can't skip them with big single-shot attacks, but your Adren still isn't wasted if you time its activation "poorly"

[swift wharf]

post plant gear is post clone tho

[ashen warren]

that would be incredibly unsatisfying imo

but it does the same thing

so i dont really have a problem

[swift wharf]

oh wait cant you like

right click the buff

[ashen warren]

that cancels it

[swift wharf]

so some of the charge time isn't wasted

[hollow shell]

To completely kill your Adren

[swift wharf]

it kills the charge now?

[hollow shell]

??

[ashen warren]

i am extremely surprised about roverdrive

[swift wharf]

ok so

you use adrenaline
bar goes down
you cancel the buff
bar stops going down

[ashen warren]

i have never seen someone able to argue in favor with something they disagree with and argue so well that they make points i didnt even think

[swift wharf]

and it charges from there, and not from 0

[frosty trellis]

That I am more okay with so long as adren gets nerfed

[hollow shell]

(I don't like seeing people get dogpiled on, especially over a misunderstanding )

[ashen warren]

right clicking a small square every time a dr phase happens would be the most annoying thing, maybe ever

[swift wharf]

you could make so the keybind cancels it (with a grace time so you don't double tap and cancel it instantly) and that would work maybe

[hollow shell]

Okay yeah I guess your idea could work Eclipse
but it sounds prone to abuse

Like having a really slow firing weapon that you get Adren for, shoot once, cancel drain, wait a few seconds to charge, pop again, shoot, cancel, repeat
essentially sustaining an infinite damage boost

[swift wharf]

hmm

cant you do that now tho?

[hollow shell]

No? Because you need to wait out the full Adren drain and start from the very bottom again once it's over

[ashen warren]

you’d have to be so insanely quick to get that done

[swift wharf]

you can cancel it, wait for it to charge and use it again

actually I'll test if it's possible

[ashen warren]

i think that eclipse disagrees in a way that i can understand and actually makes good points

[hollow shell]

Yeah it would honestly be kinda cool and require a lot of "micro" to execute optimally
But it's UNBALANCED so it cannot exist

[ashen warren]

mpgannihilator sounds like they are just against accessability

and tbh accessability is an extremely important thing that calamity mod lacks

[swift wharf]

just give me 5 minutes

[frosty trellis]

It's not accessability

[hollow shell]

No I think if you cancel the adren buff then the bar continues to drain normally, just with no damage boost

[swift wharf]

I'm pretty sure the bar stops unless that was changed

[hollow shell]

Feel free to test it

and get the proof

of either possibility

[frosty trellis]

It's more just, adrenaline is already extremely broken, it does not need to be even more broken than it already is
I can see the whole "Having it not decharge during phase transistions" work thing but not just making it into a shorter thing where you deal a billion damage in a short amount of time. That also has a habbit of accidentally breaking some fights like Exo Mechs in Boss Rush if you kill one the mechs basically instantly using Adrenaline. The fight just stops working and you can't proceed with the fight

[swift wharf]

pipebombing the chat with add it first balance it after

[hollow shell]

Fabsol?

sorry that's rude

[ashen warren]

hot take but balance is much less important than most people think

[swift wharf]

the urge to say true

but i wont say to which statement

[ashen warren]

most games are unmanageably unbalanced and it’s usually just fine

[swift wharf]

something something vanilla terraria

[hollow shell]

Balance can actually be very important to the core game experience

[swift wharf]

and yeah if everything is unbalanced then it becomes unfun

[ashen warren]

powergaming is unfun because it’s playing without the goal of having fun, not because the game allows you to

[hollow shell]

A game with the same mechanics and visuals and everything can either be fun or excruciating or boring, depending on how certain specific aspects of the game are balanced, which can be changes as simple as changing one number

[drowsy plank]

we're literally just turning every weapon into stealth strikes now

[fossil finch]

no thats good actually

[hollow shell]

Terraria fortunately is not as subject to overarching balance problems caused by single factors because so much of the game's content changes as you play, all your weps and equipment and abilities are fluid

[fossil finch]

make every weapon stealth strikes

and buff adrenaline again

surely nothing wrong will come out of this

[ashen warren]

mostly intrigue and novelty are the driving forces behind enjoying an experience, generally balance is important but having engaging mechanics and experiences is what makes a game

[frosty trellis]

So basically just make all class have a rogue function and take the entire unique functionality out of a class

[drowsy plank]

hell yeah brother

[fossil finch]

wooooo

[drowsy plank]

ruin that fuckin game balance who cares if you skip half of yharon's phases or just switch to a super high base damage weapon to exploit the shit out of it

[hollow shell]

Seems like the overall conclusion to this conversation is to pause/suspend Adren during phase transitions / bullet hells, then? (Any time the boss is invincible or near-invincible)

Cuz that addresses Ooze's core problem without much opportunity for abuse

[fossil finch]

remove adren and rage

boom problem solved

[swift wharf]

(one day I will get the proof)

[fossil finch]

true arbitrary mechanic that has to be painfully mantained removal

[drowsy plank]

pausing adren during phase transitions would be hilarious. i think its fine the way it is because you still have to think about when you pop it a little. also didnt we already remove most pure immunities from boss transitions anyway??

[ashen warren]

i have a proposal for you

[ashen warren]

normal mode

[drowsy plank]

normal mode doesnt have death AI

[fossil finch]

it does not interest me because i am being mostly sarcastic and joking

[hollow shell]

SCal

[drowsy plank]

oh right she's still

weird

[fossil finch]

it also does not solve anything at all

[drowsy plank]

her bullet hells are weird

[fossil finch]

pausing adrenaline during scal bullet hells would be genius actually

[swift wharf]

no they forgot thanatos' endless transitions

[fossil finch]

that way you are forced to fight scal more

[drowsy plank]

thanatos isnt real

[frosty trellis]

If Adrenaline as a whole is nerfed in some degree that I am more than fine with
In tester gear the whole 5x damage for 5x less time would let you skip bh5 (the objectively hardest part of SCal) and go straight to acceptance with Tyrannys end (Does abotu 2.5% in tester gear to SCal with one rage+adren shot)

[fossil finch]

and that is very good because scal is a good boss

unlike thanatos who is not

[frosty trellis]

So yeah

[ashen warren]

i personally feel like improving your adren/rage timing would solve the issue of wasting it during bullet hells

[frosty trellis]

I think with SCal you could make that argument

Yharon has really weird % phase changes for when he transistiosn with Dr phases

[hollow shell]

The problem is that average players are not constantly aware of all phase transition percentages nor do they want to be

[frosty trellis]

So expecting a player to figure that out without outside influence makes no sense

[swift wharf]

doesnt jaron self damage tho

[frosty trellis]

Bullets hells not phase changes

[ashen warren]

aren’t they usually on like 25% increments

[frosty trellis]

90/75/55/44/28/11.5 on Rev

[fossil finch]

something about that one point iban brought up all the time about testers being naturally better at the game than most players and thus using adrenaline more effectively
It is this very reason adrenaline sucks for balancing because "not getting hit is not that hard" is not a constant to anyone ever
It cannot be put into numbers, you have to set a relatively arbitrary boundary somewhere based on very subjective things.

[frosty trellis]

75/50/30/10

[ashen warren]

oh so not super hard for scal

[swift wharf]

holy fucking shit i forgot i have level+

[ashen warren]

maybe add notches in the boss health bar?

[swift wharf]

theres a mod that does that already idk about cal tho

[frosty trellis]

There is a mod but idk if it supports cal or yharon subphases

• Calamity style health bar

[swift wharf]

could just add that to cal bars tbh

[drowsy plank]

cal does not have such things i believe
people have asked for them before tho
i think we might need a new boss bar first however

[swift wharf]

actually that is a good solution for the problem

show the players when the phases happen so they dont use adrenaline

[hollow shell]

That would be great

[swift wharf]

it was so shrimple but we were blinded by the barnaclance

[ashen warren]

can somebody suggest that

i truly am too lazy to

[hollow shell]

It was actually suggested before like a month or two ago but it could be re-suggested

[swift wharf]

Ok

You can no longer cancel the buff

[hollow shell]

ah

[swift wharf]

rats

nor rage

[fossil finch]

wouldnt it be awesome if we removed the buffs

[swift wharf]

it would

another good suggestion because if you cant cancel them they just waste buff slots

[small timber]

@ashen warren sorry for pinging eventhough the conversation already ended, there are several potential problem that will make this overpowered (yes, my argument is not "adrenaline is overpowered", but "the idea is overpowered"), and all the following are assuming all the math thing works perfectly to simulate "deal all damage you are supposed to deal over the 5 seconds in 1 strike"

1. practically the higher damage you do in a single hit the more it bypass defenses, to put it simply many fast attack weapon are balanced around having a large portion of their damage blocked by defenses, if you concentrate all of their power in a single strike you will melt bosses faster than you expected compare to slow weapons to the point of literally one shotting

2. burst damage is always universally better than damage over a long period for the simple reason of you can boost them more easily, things like trinket of chi + adrenaline become possible, quick swap damage accrssory for 1 second for adrenaline is much easier than 5 seconds, stealth from shroomite or vortex armor, or even just the original idea of the suggestion: steal strike, as instead of wasting time on steal regen over the 5 seconds you just have all of them concentrated on 1 (even worse because if you have fast stealth gen you deal less damage, and 1 burst adrenaline ignore that)

3. if I understand correctly this idea will make it near impossible to use weapon with splitted/delay projectile as they will not be able to benefit on it, I mean coding wise (eg: phantasm); so on some weapon this is a massive dps loss compare to 5 seconds adrenaline

Tldr: it is extra layer of balance that overcomplicates thing without much benefit, it will just either be overpowered or underpowered with no in between; 5 seconds is already really short that you definitely can use it fully for yharon and DoG, especially yharon has very consistent pattern, you just have to learn it and not throw adrenaline immediately

[ruby plover]

heh, wall

[hollow shell]

Oh god yeah and something I didn't even think about
What about continuous/channeled weapons like Last Prism
Or what about... the entire summoner class, which is primarily defined by not having individually executed attacks

[cobalt pewter]

the wall of text has awoken

what's the sugg btw

[ruby plover]

look in quotes in broskies

[cobalt pewter]

huh

[hollow shell]

Ooze's sugg was for adding some option or equippable to turn Adren into a single-shot usage much like a stealth strike, rather than a buff with a duration

[cobalt pewter]

I uh

see

stealth strike originally was a nuke button before it got its 2.5 rework

[ruby plover]

imagine this but even stronger

[hollow shell]

and to have the weapon's attack speed taken into account with the damage boost to simulate firing it over 5 seconds in an instant

[cobalt pewter]

so I can see the idea being a bit

nutso

[royal tapir]

I love Meteor Fist

[ruby plover]

its gud for a lot of shtuff...

[keen zodiac]

meteor fist is so op

[ashen warren]

what the fuck yharon drops chicken nuggets from a suggestion or something

[drowsy plank]

if you're referring to the pet item, that wasn't added because of a suggestion. furthermore, pet items have always been a bit silly even in cal, but what you suggested wasn't a vanity item and was also a SIS. if you want to actually suggest vanity items there's always calamity's vanities anyway

[ashen warren]

🤓

[serene tendon]

To be fair, that's a post-EoW/BoC weapon, not a pre-EoC weapon

[errant bobcat]

Still 3 shoted

Only phm weapon that should be able to do that is pumpler and murasama

[frosty trellis]

That was done before the meteorite change in 1.4

[serene tendon]

oh ok

[frosty trellis]

Meteors used to be pre boss in 1.4

And still are techically if you find a golden chest close to hell

[serene tendon]

Knew both of those, just didn't realize that this was 1.3

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

[ashen warren]

yeah, you make some good points. i was thinking that there could be some kind of counter to make fast firing weapons not benefit more, which is an easy fix by just reducing the damage boost. quick swapping may be overpowered but it requires a lot of skill and focus to do during a fight, which gives more risk for more reward. the split projectile could apply the damage boost to all it's children. It being better than normal adrenaline is the point, because it's an accessory. It will take up an accessory slot, it has to improve your stats in some way.

[frosty trellis]

I mean it would also affect slower weapons a ton and make them broken as hell since it's making a burst damage weapon better at burst damage

Clockwork Bow already can't really get 2 full charges with oen adren so having just burst adren would make it kinda insane

Same with Ice Barrage

[glass arch]

yeah, imagine using it with handheld tank

[frosty trellis]

GOD

Could also just skip bh5 with Tyranny's easily

OH GOD CONDEMNATION AND VEHEMENCE

[glass arch]

everything with a low use time would be the most OP thing with that

[frosty trellis]

Yep

[glass arch]

oh god

universe splitter

[frosty trellis]

Universe splitter already has a 10 second master-death aew KT

That would be beyond overkill

[blazing kettle]

TEN SECONDS?

[frosty trellis]

✨ Extremely high burst damage on a single target ✨

[blazing kettle]

how the hell do you get universe splitter to get a 10 second kill time

[frosty trellis]

Damage

Lots and lots of damage

[glass arch]

and also how would it work with weapons thay hit multiple times, like The Wand

[frosty trellis]

Level 25 Shattered Community rage + demonshade Enrage helps too

[drowsy plank]

like i said this would just be stealth strikes 2 but now for everyone

it just isnt a good idea

[frosty trellis]

Yep

Just take the uniqueness out of the rogue class entirely

Would make stealth hilariously overpowered

[errant bobcat]

Try balancing it with daawnlight spirit origin as well

[frosty trellis]

Dear God

Brb going to do 15 million damage crit with my traitorous Biofulsilade

[errant bobcat]

Ranger is new rouge, instakills everything

With much setup

[frosty trellis]

You should use Traitorous Biofulsilade on Exos, trust me :)

[glass arch]

if you could time it right the adrenaline thing w/ traitorous would be the strongest thing in the entire mod

[errant bobcat]

I used chicken cannon maybe I think

[glass arch]

traitorous is just stupid

[frosty trellis]

Traitorous Alpha Ray is already the second best weapon for boss rush

[glass arch]

is best traitorous biofusilade

[frosty trellis]

Rainbow Party Cannon but I haven't tried Traitorous Biofulsilade on boss rush yet

Mainly bc traitorous accidentally broke Exos

[swift wharf]

I don't know if this was properly elaborated but

you would also get stealth²

adrenaline with stealth is 200%

and the strike happens only once

so imagine having that but 5x

I am now surprised that stealth was not mentioned at all during this

(specifically like that)

[frosty trellis]

.

Stealth would just be more op bc it's burst damage

[swift wharf]

FUCK

🙈

anyways yes

imagine heavenly gale

[glass arch]

imagine any weapon with low use time

[errant bobcat]

With DSO

[tepid wedge]

Add more ranged accesories there are 2 for pre hardmode while other classes have 5+

[small timber]

what class have 5+ that are relevant

rogue should be excluded since it is a calamity class and they have to ensure the class functions in pre-Hardmode, especially that the class is so accessory dependent

[cobalt pewter]

god damnit you beat me to it

[ashen warren]

summoner

[stable kiln]

and rogue has 2 subclasses with quite a few accessories that only fit to one of them

true melee does not count as a subclass

[cobalt pewter]

it's more of playstyles rather than "subclasses"

[small timber]

summoner accessory tldr is also just minion slot accessory (which is literally what the class dependent on) so of course it also have more accessory

[stable kiln]

yeah true

[cobalt pewter]

like true melee yea

[stable kiln]

tahts a better way to put it

[small timber]

melee have like feral claw, fungal symbiote (that is gonna get reworked), and like, yoyo accessories that work only for 1 subclass?

meanwhile mage get celestial cuff (LMAO) and magic flower

[cobalt pewter]

integer stat boost moment

(since cal summons that take decimals for summon slots are rare)

(herring 🐟 )

[stable kiln]

polterghast staff

whats it called

[cobalt pewter]

I honestly don't remember

[small timber]

affliction?

[stable kiln]

thats the accessory

[cobalt pewter]

but yeah the point is 92% of summon weapons, vanilla + cal, use integers for summon slots

(that number is made up)

[stable kiln]

this

but yeah thats true

[cobalt pewter]

the zany

anyways a bit off from the actual topic

most vanilla classes do not actually require so much new accs

[stable kiln]

they really dont :P

[small timber]

vanilla build tldr: stack whatever that give damage for 5 of them and +1 wing

then you just kill bosses under 30 seconds so you dont need any defense whatsoever

I still remember it was shyguymask or someone who used the argument that "whip stacking should not be nerf because plantera average killtime is 40 seconds" (I was wrong on this one and misunderstood the context, so I will stand corrected)

[cobalt pewter]

whip talk deletes any shred of brain cells I had at any given time

[stable kiln]

actually true

[swift wharf]

plantera is a boss

[frail mantle]

probably partially because vanilla balances differently than calamity

iirc vanilla tends to balance around min maxxing to hell and back with fairly short boss kill times

while calamity does it with neutral loadouts and fairly long kill times, probably to make sure bosses get to do things before dying

[small timber]

the thing is that argument was used against calamity nerfing whip stacking iirc (for the context)

[frail mantle]

yes i assumed as much

[small timber]

vanilla also suffers from lack of "viable" non-offensive accessories

their defense accessories are generally terrible therefore going full damage is ideal, while the only way to go "defense" is basically abuse iframe like star veil and dodge effect from brain of confusion + master ninja gear

[strange oracle]

Meanwhile hardmode mage:
Sigil of Calamitas, take it or leave it.

Which is literally just a stat stick.

[swift wharf]

permafrost's concoction:

chaos stone:

[strange oracle]

True.aö

Also technically chaos stone

[swift wharf]

star beam rye

[strange oracle]

Ah yes

The famous accessory

Alcohol

[swift wharf]

so op might as well be one

[strange oracle]

now that's a suggestion

Anyway, ranger at least gets fun stuff like daawnlight and Quiver of Nihility.

Meanwhile mage has just stat sticks.

and chaos stone

[cobalt pewter]

chaos stone pre rework was even worse

at least it has something to work with now

[strange oracle]

oh believe me I have seen it.

I was there in the stat inflation era

[reef hinge]

ogaaa]

[grim tusk]

Mana flowers and emblems :)

[fossil finch]

ok but mana flowers are cringe

except cloak

and calamity made cloak bad by buffing the others so much its sad

[errant bobcat]

Arcane flower is ok in multiplayer, not much otherwise tho

[drowsy plank]

magnet flower

[fossil finch]

Cloak did not deserve the nerf

[errant bobcat]

That is correct

Maybe someone should suggest a buff

Bc you already get the stars from star veil upgrades so yea, kinda not necessary, and it also looks the best on the character so players that want to use it not in vanity can use it without opportunity cost

[frosty trellis]

I had ideas for just making all the Mana flowers more interesting in general bc all of them just suck

Conceptually

[strange oracle]

What, you don't like the celestial magnet effect?
It's so useful. A total gamechanger.

:)

[drowsy plank]

that's the only actually good one lmfao

[frosty trellis]

I use Magnet Flower bc of the 12% Mana cost reduction + the Mana star range effect is the only one that matters past destroyer

[fossil finch]

It's only better than cloak because calamity buffs it.,.,.

[frosty trellis]

Star Cloak effect past Mechs rly just isn't useful in general though

[fossil finch]

If calamity didn't buff it cloak would be better because it gives you the bonus to the drip stat

[frosty trellis]

Since it doesn't deal like anything

[frosty trellis]

LOL

[drowsy plank]

lmao

[fossil finch]

Yeah but you're using emblem/cuffs

Also tbh cloaks effects point is the mana recovery bonus anyway not the damahe

[frosty trellis]

Oh huh

Didn't know that was a thing

[fossil finch]

Stars give you 50 mana if you pick them up

[frosty trellis]

Still, I think all three flowers should get overhauls bc they are semi boring
At least magnet flower and Arcane Flower
Mana Cloak you need to get hit to activate which makes it niche

[fossil finch]

Don't remember if they're affected by msgnet though

[frosty trellis]

Arcane flower should get the putrid scent crit bonus and magnet flower celestial cuffs mana on hit bonus, and then Mana cloak can do something else

[fossil finch]

Magnet flowe getting cuffs seems like it'd just make cuffs useless tho

[frosty trellis]

Celestial cuffs is pre boss

So like

Oh wait but then magnet flower is pre.boss as well bc 1.4.4

Crap right

[fossil finch]

Don't care+stretchy stretch

(You're not getting him fucking preboss

[frosty trellis]

Would just be more pointless insta-upgrades

[frosty trellis]

1.4.4

Celestial Magnet spawns in sky islands

[fossil finch]

Oh right

[frosty trellis]

Ye

Hmmm

How to make magnet flower actually interesting then

[fossil finch]

Spending all resources in cloak instead

Because it's the objectively coolest one

[frosty trellis]

For looks yes

Give arcane flower the 5% crit bonus from putrid scent please

[fossil finch]

and for everything else the other 2 just combine lame effectd

Cloak at least tries and adds its own

[frosty trellis]

Let Mage Have Crit!!!!

[strange oracle]

In theory, yes.
In practice, the same effect is already on the celestial magnet.
Which you're probably already using since it gives you a damage buff.
So the magnet flower is completely outclassed

[drowsy plank]

if you mean celestial emblem yeah, but also that's being moved back to post mechs anyway

so

furthermore you can

get magnet flower in preHardmode

[strange oracle]

i am dumb

I'd still rather use the cloak.

You probably don't need a mana flower in prehardmode

But yes, you can theoretically use it.

But "usable" isn't "good"

[glass arch]

mana flower is like the only way to have reliable mana regen pre-hardmode

[strange oracle]

and then there's me

[glass arch]

everything else gives one or two mana regen per second

[strange oracle]

who farms a gazillion mana regen potions as soon as possible.

or just buys them when possible

My point is, vanilla mage accessories are boring. Useful, but boring.

[crude geode]

Mana regen?

[glass arch]

you dont get much from accessories

[crude geode]

As far as I remember mana flower doesn’t give regen

[glass arch]

not directly

[crude geode]

[glass arch]

the auto mana potions acts kinda as bootleg mana regen

[crude geode]

That’s not mana regen

That’s still just mana restoration

[strange oracle]

And it debuffs your damage.

So yeah.

I believe in mana regen potion supremacy

[fossil finch]

mana regen is objectively better for dama

[serene tendon]

Yes. Virgin Mana Potion chugger vs Chad Mana Regen user

[ashen warren]

no suggestions

[crude geode]

Post one yourself

[fossil finch]

no suggestions :hooboo:

[crude geode]

hobo

[fossil finch]

hooboo is inverse boohoo its boohoo but with a expression of joy

[grim tusk]

vs Thad Astral Injection user

[agile mirage]

there is a specific reason to the tainted enchantment doesnt work with tools?
there are some tools that have projectiles

[small timber]

because tools are not considered as a weapon with tainted I think

in fact tools are not even considered as a melee weapon for the summoner multi-class nerf

[agile mirage]

yeah

thats make sense

but like, every tool aren't considered melee for the summon nerf

but there are like 2 tools that have projectiles

that can be used as a weapon

imo makes sense to make those an exception

[agile mirage]

actually, the Crystyl Crusher can get tainted

but photon ripper no

why

[fossil finch]

Photon ripper isn't a sword

[ashen warren]

how am i just realizing that there’s absolutely no sentry support in the entire mod

zero accessories or armor sets give extra sentries

[small timber]

because sentries are supposed to be support weapon

[frail mantle]

sentries are support weapons for the support weapons class

[small timber]

they just gutted sentry power by 70-90% in recent patch, so why will they give you way to invest on items that are already that heavily nerfed

[ashen warren]

there are a lot of summon weapons that reasonably should be sentries anyways

[small timber]

you mean the likes of like borealis bomber?

[ashen warren]

most of the solar spirit and flower items

[small timber]

I am not sure the verdict but you have to ask Memes for it

[small timber]

those are actual summoner weapon, they have nothing to do with sentries, simply because it do not use sentry slot

[ashen warren]

they function like sentries that you glued to your hands

[small timber]

then they are already not sentry for the fact that they are glued onto your character

[ashen warren]

isn’t there that one endgame sentry you can pick up

[small timber]

which is why it is endgame, it is basically the "giga" sentry that defy the usual logic of sentry

(+ the other rational is that after you kill scal supposedly you only have exo, and a static sentry will be really bad for exo)

[ashen warren]

still, the flowers seem more like sentry items than actual minions

[crude geode]

Are you gonna argue sanguine staff is more a sentry than an actual minion

[small timber]

opinions are subjective, it currently use minion slot and not sentry slot therefore it is not a sentry, as simple as that

[ashen warren]

to be fair the bats move

[small timber]

if they want to turn it into sentry sure just slap a 90% damage nerf on it and make it use sentry slot, suddenly you just lose a viable summoner weapon option and nothing more

[ashen warren]

the flowers do not move

they just seem to be more like sentries than most minions is what i’m saying

they aren’t sentries, but they function more like sentries than they do traditional minions

they can’t really move independent of you, mostly utilizes projectiles rather than contact damage

the only thing separating them is that they have a fixed position on the screen rather than the world

[crude geode]

If every minion only used contact damage for damage it would make for a boring and repetitive class

Hence why stuff like xeno staff, stardust cells, and twins staff exist

[ashen warren]

just as an observation, those overhead summons share a lot with sentries compared to other minion items

not saying they are sentries, just that they have similarities

[fossil finch]

sentries are stupid doo doo

they just don't work very well for terraria do they
ooa and idk wof w/spam aside there's not a lot of situations you aren't in constant mobility
I guess their purpose is just enemy control while, for example, farming, and they do that just well

[small timber]

in calamity their power level is also completely fucked

[fossil finch]

i don't think there actually needs to be huge support for them because they're just bound to not being useful due to being stationary

[crude geode]

“They just don’t work very well for boss fights, therefore they’re bad”

[small timber]

as in, those that are "supposed to be balanced" do about 10% DPS of your summons, and those that still do full damage is because Memes havent got to balancing them (yet)

[fossil finch]

calamity balances everything about boss fights so yes they're bad

and even outside that summons do the job of enemy control much better anyway

[ashen warren]

i feel like there’s an interesting observation in here somewhere

[fossil finch]

yes the observation is that calamity balancing sucks

(i agree)

[crude geode]

Saying they don’t work well for terraria is a bit weird then

[fossil finch]

but it is true they dont!

look at vanilla

it only had like 2 sentries until ooa came along

[ashen warren]

most boss fights in vanilla encourage you to use a fairly small arena, like plantera or queen bee

[fossil finch]

one of them was underused because of the farming it's locked behind and the other is at the worst tier possible for a sentry (mech tier)

[ashen warren]

plantera gets her shit wrecked by sentries

[small timber]

the tldr is this:
calamity's summon weapons themselves basically already was balanced around only having themselves in the past, aka: they deal 100% of a boss's hp in damage

then whips get added which basically amplify your damage by like 40-50% (depend on weapon, sometimes 200-300%) therefore they gut all whips so they use a multiplicatively boost of ~10-20%

then they notice "hey many sentries basically is just free and do about the same as a summoner weapon so let's nerf it to 10%"

[fossil finch]

ooa's work well for their event, of course they do because after all they're designed for it, but aside the wof fight i have never seen them used outside of ooa ever

[ashen warren]

starting to wonder if they should balance around the game instead of 1/3 of the game

[fossil finch]

(i've never seen people use mech tier ooa sentries for plant that's new to me)

[swift wharf]

something something possible subclass suggestion don't