suggestions-discussion

[sinful violet]

what the fuck is going on

[fossil finch]

I don't think terraria is universally adored for its game design I've really never saw anyone say how good its design is
I've seen a lot of people say it's fun and that's why it's top steam rated

[swift wharf]

there are no video essays about terraria game design so that is correct

[sinful violet]

it has potential for one but it's such an obscure aspect it's hard to nail down

[frail mantle]

terraria is a really fun and very flawed game

that's how i'd put it

[sinful violet]

That's the simplest way yeah

[frail mantle]

far from perfect but it's (normally) very fun to play so eh

[swift wharf]

you should play terraria

[frail mantle]

i'd rather not

[ashen warren]

it’s fine to see and voice a problem, it’s just weird to make large sweeping statements about game design without being able to engage with it positively

[fossil finch]

like if we started reviewing opinions from hell (bad steam reviews) most come down to "early game bad because its paced like shit" and they are right, if we then went up progressively i'd say the reviews would start focusing more on "its fun" than anything else

[swift wharf]

talking about terraria vs playing terraria moment

[fossil finch]

what is "engaging with it positively"

[sinful violet]

To be fair

[ashen warren]

genuinely enjoying it

[sinful violet]

This is the suggestions group of channels

[fossil finch]

i can make large sweeping statements because in this case we are talking about one simple type of item that does never differ in any way
Stat sticks are defined as accessories that do nothing but give you stats, which by definition does not include any item that changes how you play in any way, which makes sense when you think as accs as just bonus but also makes this accs boring
Perhaps it is not horribly designed but it's definitely not good either, stuff in your game should be engaging

idk what to say i don't think id have as many hours in terraria if i did not geuinely enjoy it

[frail mantle]

believe me when i say i wouldn't have put 2 and a half thousand hours into this game if i never genuinely enjoyed it

[swift wharf]

stockholm syndrom

[serene tendon]

Very true

[ashen warren]

how do i put this

[fossil finch]

The point at the end is that i'd give vanilla much less slack for this because it doesn't actually have many stat sticks

[ashen warren]

you need proof to prove things, or at least a compelling argument that engages with what you like if you want something to change

[fossil finch]

Calamity suffers them much greatly due to inexperience and old content

idk i think ive already given a good enough argument

stat stick=boring
acc that gives you something that spices up your way of playing=not boring

this can be simplified to stat stick bad without hurting the nuance enough the argument is completely lost imo

[glass arch]

stat sticks arent necessarily bad

[ashen warren]

reinforcing your main gameplay loop by tweaking different stats is pretty interesting to me

[fossil finch]

i would change emblems to do something else if i could, even though i don't really have a problem with them being what they are
It's void, ice flare or the post ml artefacts that i truly have problems with because they add nothing and are often ignorable because of their status as stat sticks, they do not give anything you could not get somewhere else and are seemingly only there to max stats

[swift wharf]

+10% increased damage + 12% increased crit chance

(game changing)

[fossil finch]

it doesn't really reinforce the gameplay loop

[ashen warren]

your main gameplay loop is dealing damage to enemies before they kill you

[fossil finch]

what does is the rest of the content that makes said stat upgrades a thing that is reasonable to add to begin with

i wouldn't say the damage reinforces the gameplay loop there

[glass arch]

stat sticks work for what they need to do but unique stuff is a lot more fun, however if you want everything to have a unique effect a lot of items are gonna fall into really niche uses that arent applicable in usual gameplay

[swift wharf]

dealing 10% more damage does not change your gameplay loop lmao

[fossil finch]

it is the way you deal damage and what you are dealing damage to what does

the damage you deal is only a medium to express said exchange

[swift wharf]

This is when I say that stuff like permas concoction is cool because it gives stats + a cool effect

[fossil finch]

i agree with oomfie ecIipse above

[swift wharf]

two cool effects actually

[ashen warren]

part of the fun of the game is weighing what effects your gear can grant you

[swift wharf]

the revive and the mana cap break

[ashen warren]

sometimes the best way it can grant you something is a numerical increase

[glass arch]

(im not saying most items will fall into niche use, im just saying a few will)

[fossil finch]

its the most ignored part of the game i think

[swift wharf]

simply make them niche and very good

(see hellfire boots)

[fossil finch]

Terraria as desperately as it tries to implements its rpg elements in ways that are very easy to ignore
In an rpg, said numbers are critical to what you do
In terraria they aren't

you only care about them when their increase is the wall between you and beating something, and nowhere else

and even then, said increase could be whatever as long as its enough to break that wall

[glass arch]

you need some stat sticks somewhere in order to make the special items feel special and not make the whole game feel super complicated

[swift wharf]

you dont need stat sticks you need stat s

[sinful violet]

I will say I think the emblems are fine where they are if that's still the topic

[fossil finch]

you do not actually care about the stats being given unlike youd do in an rpg which is why stat sticks don't work here

it is

[ashen warren]

exactly, too much spice on your meal can actually ruin the taste and make you shit your pants

[sinful violet]

They set the floor for the dps accs of HM +

And with shimmer it's not a pain in the ass anymore

[glass arch]

thank god for that

[fossil finch]

i also do think they're fine because they are one of those accs you can leave them with the unique purpose of those increases (though hm makes it somewhat artificial)
again, my target is stuff like ice flare's existence

also "you need stat sticks" no you need simple accs and complex accs

with their complexity increasing as does the gameplay loop

[glass arch]

whats ice flare again

[swift wharf]

cryo acc that does thing

[fossil finch]

it is that simple, every acc with an effect isn't automatically complex

[ashen warren]

simple to me really screams “numerical increases”

[fossil finch]

its the cryo stat stick

[swift wharf]

frost flare

[fossil finch]

certified no one knows it item

[ashen warren]

if you want your ideal experience just play with 3 accessory slots on normal mode

[ashen warren]

cryogen’s rock

[fossil finch]

🤨

[ashen warren]

if terraria was designed without stat sticks you’d just have fewer acc slots

[fossil finch]

why are you assuming things you do not even need to assume

[ashen warren]

and everything would have lower stats

[swift wharf]

:skul

[fossil finch]

the latter isn't bad thing

the former is conjecture because uh

you could just have

more unique accs

also, that doesn't mean that you don't have accs that give you stats still

[glass arch]

unique items are cool but if every single item has a unique function then it gets a bit overwhelming

[fossil finch]

it just means you have accs that do things that are infact not just giving you stats

[swift wharf]

simply make them only a bit unique

[ashen warren]

personally lucky charms, an old fashioned, and a slice of pie would be an awful meal

you can only have so much special stuff

[glass arch]

(this isnt me saying im not all for more unique stuff)

[fossil finch]

your food metaphor does not work here because i am completely unable to understand what it means

(i think you've missed a word or two or something

[ashen warren]

an old fashioned is a dry drink

good but not for breakfast

[fossil finch]

ok

[sinful violet]

If you have too many wacky zany shit it becomes overcomplicated and you lose any actual identity for any of them

[glass arch]

exactly

[sinful violet]

You can p much count out two slots for all of HM because of boots and wings

So you've got three slots

What do you guys think's a decent balance

[ashen warren]

you’re perfectly welcome to play with 5-7 game changing items, just accept the tradeoff of dealing less damage and dying easier

[sinful violet]

Or what do you think is a good non-stat stick acc

[fossil finch]

i think theres slight nuance here because theres degrees of difference between wacky zany and stat stick or plain

[sinful violet]

Oh and a dash

So two slots

[fossil finch]

its tree again because no one plays normal

[frosty trellis]

Two for phm, 3 for hm since expert-rev is the intended Calamity experience

[sinful violet]

Oh wait yeah three

I forgot about the acc lot upgrades Forgive Me

[ashen warren]

there are hypothetically 2 players here, a wacky weird build that has a lot of tricks but has a hard time fighting and a simple powerful build that can do less things but has a more forgiving fight

[fossil finch]

do i have copy feed's raider talisman example again and explain the difference between acc that does something, acc that changes the game and stat stick

[sinful violet]

You could say 3.5 since a dash isn't mandatory but a decent majority always play with one

[swift wharf]

What defines a stat stick exactly

[glass arch]

only gives straight stats

[swift wharf]

Is it something that gives a bunch of stats

and only a bunch of stats

[glass arch]

yes

[frosty trellis]

With the exception of like, SCal, there is no reason to not have a dash

[fossil finch]

an accessory of the game terraria that does nothing but give you stats and fails to be interesting in any other way

[swift wharf]

Cuz idk calling stuff like wof emblems stat sticks sounds kinda wrong

[ashen warren]

it’s something used primarily to boost damage, crit chance, attack speed, defense, etc

[swift wharf]

because they only give one stat

[glass arch]

so The Community is the prime example of a stat stick

[fossil finch]

hell i'd say celestial shell wouldn't count but the transformations are just conditional stat sticks

[ashen warren]

The Community sucks because the boosts are too low in every direction to compete with dedicated ones

[swift wharf]

lmao

[fossil finch]

it doesn't actually the community is the best stat stick in the whole game

best filler for post dog

[ashen warren]

didn’t you call void of extinction a stat stick

[fossil finch]

because it is!

because its other effect does nothing

[glass arch]

well if you boil it down unique items (like quiver of nihility) are just conditional stat sticks

[swift wharf]

I'd consider community as a stat stick but not warrior emblem

[fossil finch]

no they are not because quiver of nihility does not give you stats directly

[ashen warren]

that’s the problem with using stat stick as an insult

[swift wharf]

we're not using it as an insult

[fossil finch]

transformations (werewolf mostly, merman gives you swimming thing) just give you stats when x is true

[swift wharf]

only ironically

[glass arch]

its a descriptor

[fossil finch]

what jacob said

[ashen warren]

my brain is frying right now

[glass arch]

bc stat stick doesnt immediately equal bland

[swift wharf]

I'm making an alignment chart

[ashen warren]

using the term stat stick is an insult if you dislike every stat stick

[fossil finch]

that is true simply because community and shat community exist which are the best accessories ever made because its so fucking hilarious community is the stat stick

[ashen warren]

what

[glass arch]

community is one of the more interesting stat sticks imo

[swift wharf]

ironic

[ashen warren]

it’s.. interesting

it was designed.. a lot

[fossil finch]

anyways your hypothetical scenario does not hypothetically work because hypothethically the dude with the hypothetical quirky tricks also has hypothetical stats because the hypothetical gear that gives you the hypothetical quirky tricks also give stats

[sinful violet]

(I'm back)

I think stat stick's a bit misleading

[fossil finch]

it is not that hard to understand i am not advocating for stat removal i am advocating for the same as you, make interesting

[ashen warren]

i am going to have a stroke

[fossil finch]

i simply said that stats are not interesting

[ashen warren]

why is void of extinction bad if it does what you want it to

[fossil finch]

it doesn't

it is not interesting

[ashen warren]

what do you want it to do

[fossil finch]

it does have a secondary effect but it is not interesting

[glass arch]

raw stats on their own are bland, it depends on how you get those additional stats that makes it interesting

[sinful violet]

I think it's fine

If you define every acc that has an effect that just increases DPS without changing at all how the game's played all you're left with is movement accs and like

sand cloak

or w/e that DS drop's called

[ashen warren]

still stat sticks, just good ones

[fossil finch]

idk something interesting instead of rain downs projectile
extinction is made with calclone and brimmy stuff, right? so we could have some idk brimflame armor effect but for all classes and toned down
It could invoke the suffering souls of both for a commanded brimstone blast perhaps even the rain it already does but on command and more precise and in a way that it is an effect you forget entirely because it actually deals damage and you actually do something to proc it

[sinful violet]

And would you want to apply that to every acc

[fossil finch]

thing is i don't do that mrrp
again raider talisman
It does nothing to fundamentally change how you play the game but it's already not an stack stick in any way or merit simply because it has an effect that is interesting

i do not it's not that hard

[ashen warren]

there is a reason why those are few and far between

[fossil finch]

i just do not want calamity to have 5 different ice flares

[ashen warren]

(it’s so fucking annoying to use more than one hotkey accessory at a time)

[fossil finch]

(all of which are useless except exodium artifacts because nohitting or something

[sinful violet]

^

[ashen warren]

this just sounds like a weapon

a mage weapon

[sinful violet]

Then why not go for raider's talisman level of engagement on a regular basis

[fossil finch]

then don't make it hotkey based, give it another effect
What it does currently is just not interesting and does not involve the player doing anything

yeah mrrp thats perfect

[sinful violet]

Or mana overloader

[fossil finch]

i never said no

those 2 are fine

they are actually engaging

they are cool

i don't have a problem with them

[sinful violet]

I feel like your definition of stat stick is too broad then.

[ashen warren]

your definition of engaging is concerning

[sinful violet]

Because you're saying you'd like to change those

And then the example you give is a wildin one

[keen zodiac]

#suggestions-voting message or just have the boss aggro the person that summoned it, and then the person who's doing the most damage

[ashen warren]

VoE already has a moderately low yet noticeable secondary effect

[fossil finch]

imo "acc which only gives you stats and nothing else" do not include them simply because there's steps between you and said stats that want the player to play the game in some way or do something

overloader would fall more because it's the regen what keeps from you in a way though

but i can agree with it being broad anyway i do not think the exact definition matters at the moment

[sinful violet]

I feel like you're missing some words there

[ashen warren]

i think you just want 12 accessory slots

[fossil finch]

it could be best said as "more accs that are engaging"

i think you need to stop saying random things

[sinful violet]

That's the gist of it

[ashen warren]

you want to have 6 interesting accessories without falling behind stat wise

[fossil finch]

god

[sinful violet]

That's why I don't like just saying "stat stick" and expecting people to agree

[fossil finch]

why is it so hard to understand that accs that are engaging does not mean accs that do not give you stats

[ashen warren]

if you want the engaging, just accept that you’re not gonna have stats

[fossil finch]

????????

waht

[sinful violet]

Now that's a weird take

[fossil finch]

why would they be mutually exclusive

look its as simple as

"Acc does x, it also gives you 10% more damage"

it could be "acc gives you 10% more damage, it goes up to 15% if you x"

[sinful violet]

Yeah I don't know what canvas means but that "x" is what concerns me.

[fossil finch]

i think that concern is reasonable yea

[ashen warren]

if you use 6 gimmick items and no emblem (or something like it) you’re gonna have a hard time not getting the 15% damage boost

[fossil finch]

but the point still is that effect and stats are not mutually exclusive

GOOD GOD

look simple solution

we take the emblem

[sinful violet]

If people're getting worked up over terraria mod design again I'm gonna lose it myself

[fossil finch]

and we make it do something
I don't care what it does as long as it can be considered engaging

suddenly

we have the emblem 15%
And it does something engaging

thus i am losinmg nothing

because stats and gimmicks are just not mutually exclusive

[sinful violet]

Do you want to make every acc engaging in some way then

[fossil finch]

i do not understand why you try so hard to make them mutually exclusive

[sinful violet]

You're talking past each other right now I think

[edgy sundial]

this just sounds like you want twice as many accessory slots

[fossil finch]

i am going to murder you

[ashen warren]

the way that the game is designed right now is that items offer some balance of stat or mechanical difference

[fossil finch]

well, you can always reduce stats if said mechanical stuff matters enough to reduce them, if that is the concern

[sinful violet]

If every acc stat providing or not requires some ""engagement"" to reach max potential of what used to just be a 15% damage boost, engaging in every acc you have to reach that potential becomes not engaging but a pain in the ass.

[ashen warren]

how can i put this

[fossil finch]

i already said i don't have a problem with the emblem existing anyway its gimmick can be giving 15% damage i dont care

[ashen warren]

the game’s design should not bend to your aversion of accessories you don’t like using

[fossil finch]

i will repeat that i just not want there to be 5 different ice flares in calamity

[edgy sundial]

well, you say you want stat sticks "with engaging effects", which is kind of the same thing as having 6-7 slots for stat sticks, and another 6-7 slots for "engaging" accessories

[fossil finch]

ok how do i put this

ok you know ill just bring raider talisman again

It's raider talisman its just the example

[ashen warren]

use raider talisman

[fossil finch]

why are you so bent on making this about what i use or do not use

i can complain about stat sticks being conceptually boring and use them

[ashen warren]

just use the items you find engaging, and if you notice you’re having a hard time in a fight it’s because it’s designed that wat

[sinful violet]

Okay good then stop talking about the game as a whole and just give arguments for single accs because talking about things like "stat sticks" as a whole doesn't work then

[fossil finch]

ok

[sinful violet]

And it's just going to keep being a circular conversation.

[edgy sundial]

has anyone considered the balancing ramifications of making every accessory "unique and engaging and changes how you play the game"?

[fossil finch]

ice flare is bad it only gives you stats and frost burn and is not interesting on engaging in any way simple right

we are not talking about every accessory we are talking about ice flare

[ashen warren]

i like those types of accessories

they’re unobtrusive and work for my play style

[fathom aspen]

um

what's your opinions on Plague Reaper's 'The Plague debuff causes enemies to take 10% more damage from ranged projectiles'

[glass arch]

it im gonna be honest i like stat sticks because i forget to use unique effects a lot

[ashen warren]

literally! i like using items to buff the thing i’m already doing

[fathom aspen]

Personally I consider it a good example of "engaging" or otherwise what is engaging idk

[fossil finch]

ok but we are not talking about that we are talking about it only giving you stats and frost burn and being useless for the great majority of players because it doesn't do anything which is my main reason for disliking these accs: they are not useful because their niches are already covered by other accessories (because other accs are already giving you stats)
Ice flare is one example, i could give others like, say, the exodium artifacts (one of them is nohitter-focused, so it does fill a niche, but the one themed after cultists does not provied anything)

Ice Flare does not provide anything to your playthrough and is very ignorable, which is why i am proposing giving it something to do aside the stats it gives with balance not being the focus of this hypothethical example meaning whether or not the stats would/should be nerfed is irrelevant

[swift wharf]

eldritch soul artifact is fucking balls

[ashen warren]

so i’ll just say something

[swift wharf]

thing gives 2 minion slots but also 10% ranged velocity

[ashen warren]

neko, you want the game to specifically to include only items you find enjoyable

[fossil finch]

no

[swift wharf]

LMAO

[fossil finch]

i have absolutely never said anything about whether or not i find this items enjoyable to begin with
I have already stated i like community and shattered community, community largely counting as one of the items i could have a problem with

stop putting words in my mouth or trying to make this about what i would hypothetically use or what i would not hypothethically use

[swift wharf]

community is the same case of burning sky

kinda

[ashen warren]

am i going insane? am i going crazy?

[edgy sundial]

getting 10% damage from one accessory doesn't nullify the 10% damage from another accessory...

[fossil finch]

if you have a problem with my previous generalisation that is ok, i understand why, but i never said i hated every single item ever i do not enjoy and automatically demand terraria to remove all of them

sure but if you have an acc that gives you 10 and one that gives you 15 and ice flare only gives you another 10 sprinkled with stats you do not currently need you are choosing the one that gives you 15, which is why currently ice flare is considerable an acc that is not very used, it does not provide anything at the state of the game it is at because other accessories serve its function in giving stats

[fossil finch]

^ this one here has it worse because at post moonlord there is an accessory expansion and it suffers being what it is because it does not provide anything meaningful compared to other builds (though it depends on the class in this scenario)

that is my problem is that clear i just want ice flare to be good

[swift wharf]

I enjoy the fact that we are not talking about soul of cryogen because it is also balls

[fossil finch]

i don't hate ice flare

[ashen warren]

it’s okay for a niche item to exist. there is not a problem with an item because you personally find it bland, or pointless, or uninteresting.

[fossil finch]

soul of cryogen is a wing i can't complain about wings without dismounting half this game and i do not want to do that rn

[edgy sundial]

then make a suggestion about making ice flare good

[swift wharf]

if only there was a wing themed around ice

[ashen warren]

if only there were like 6

[fossil finch]

id say theres 2 and a half currently because holiday moon festive wings arent inherently ice

[swift wharf]

wing balance is another can of worms that we will not open today

[fossil finch]

the worst part about it is that the can of worms opens with the longest one

[swift wharf]

tracers

[fossil finch]

i never said that it is not ok for niche items to exist and me finding one pointless/bland/uninteresting does mean there is a problem at least for me and that is perfectly valid

tracers isn't the longest one

[ashen warren]

you can just not use it

[fossil finch]

the longest one is the existence of wings as obligatory accs for movement in general
Or just, movement in terraria in general
but i am not here for that

it is true i can simply not participate in society therefore there is no point in improving society

[swift wharf]

💥💥💥💥💥

[ashen warren]

ice flair is actively being updated to account for community preferences

[swift wharf]

Can't believe this

Exo Gladius died for nothing

[fossil finch]

In this case its less extreme ill give you that but "you can just not use it" is not a good excuse for arguably bad content

[fathom aspen]

Well, if there is chance for unteresting items to become better so why not

[fossil finch]

has ice flare been changed in the past 2 years

[swift wharf]

prob

[ashen warren]

changelogue

updated from melee to universal

[swift wharf]

I see

[ashen warren]

do you use spore sac? or shiny stone?

[swift wharf]

spore sac is fucking balls I want it GONE

[ashen warren]

bad example bad example my bad

my bad

[swift wharf]

[ashen warren]

shiny stone? or deerclops hand thing?

[fossil finch]

You are bringing up such good examples of accessories that do something but are bad too

[edgy sundial]

maybe there could be some extra stats given to "unique" accessories that aren't very good, to encourage their use or something?

[fossil finch]

it's almost like me not liking an acc for being in a position where it is underused is just a gateway to talking about the fact that there infact exist accs of all types that are also just bad

[wide creek]

might be a bit contreverisial, but ceseltial cuffs

[safe oasis]

what the hell is ice flare

[swift wharf]

frost flare

[ashen warren]

mana flower drone

[safe oasis]

idk what that is either

[fossil finch]

i like celestial cuffs because you get hit by 2 damage and get 200 mana in return

[fathom aspen]

and your adren is gone

[swift wharf]

it's the cryo accessory that does things

[fossil finch]

which is funny and better than mana flower's whole existence because who uses mana pots when you can stop 2 seconds

[swift wharf]

can of mage worms 🧙

[ashen warren]

in all fairness it’s impossible to expect all accessories to have moderately large applications

[fossil finch]

i am not having the mana regen conversation again so please ignore this message for any and all discussion purposes

what were we talking about

[safe oasis]

oh that thing

[wide creek]

?

[swift wharf]

yeah the cryo accessory that does things

[wide creek]

wdym by stop for 2 seconds

[fossil finch]

oh yes expert accs suck i can admit that while also admitting frost flare sucks

mana regen pot fills up your mana in about 2 seconds

[swift wharf]

expert accs when they're either bonkers or downright useles

s

[ashen warren]

shield of cthulu? brain? scarf?

[swift wharf]

gravity globe 💥

[fossil finch]

me when i point out the good ones after the generalisation is made because

[ashen warren]

learn how to spell generalization if you’re gonna keep bringing it up

but continue

[fossil finch]

yes yes don't generalise or whatever yes yes those are good and exceptions can we move on to the point of we should improve accessories somewhat or something

damn i want to nerd emoji that so bad

[swift wharf]

it's gimmicky so it's fine

[safe oasis]

this is definitely one of the arguments

[fossil finch]

(For the record i do not care because spelling is not important or relevant

can we move on to the point of we should improve accessories somewhat or something anyways

[safe oasis]

me after i learn that different dialects exist (colour is not a real word you're spelling it wrong)

[swift wharf]

stat sticker haters when I show them the expert moon lord drop

[fossil finch]

uhh improve accessories and yes i agree talisman and quiver are bad but nucleogenesis and gauntlet are also bad and idk about nanotech do not care enough about that currently

[ashen warren]

🤓

[safe oasis]

average calamain user

[fossil finch]

anyways what was the point of bringing up the "ice flare changes with community" thing i think it literally means nothing

you know what it doesn't matter actually

[ashen warren]

it means that people don’t want it gone

[frosty trellis]

Nanotech has the reworked raider Talisman effect + dumb lifesteal

[swift wharf]

oh no not the

3

frost flare fans

[fossil finch]

i never said about removing it (that is also not relevant

you know what people didn't want gone holiday halberd

[swift wharf]

anyways we dont care what people like ⚡

[fossil finch]

actually not holiday halberd i literally have the image saved for this

[frosty trellis]

Bloodstained Glove, Electricians and Nanotech lifesteal don't have lifesteal cooldown for some reason

[swift wharf]

See: exo shiv

[fathom aspen]

sad thing raider talisman has no midway upgrades before nanotech

I kinda like its mechanics

[fossil finch]

HRP or heart rapier syndrom

[safe oasis]

that's because it's not lifesteal it's a fixed 1 hp

[ashen warren]

i mean it’s a 50/50 chance to see if something implodes before the next update can drop so we’ll see if changes are implemented

[swift wharf]

not the heart rapier

[frosty trellis]

The effect is unfortunately useless at that stage

[swift wharf]

buff the effect

[fossil finch]

anyways improve accessories somewhat

[frosty trellis]

Also ele quiver is funny bc of velocity making every ranger weapon have a billion distance for point blank if you have decent bullets

[fossil finch]

i don't actually care that much about whether or not ice flare is removed by tomorrow it doesn't affect or impact my life in any way but i still consider talking about it and having opinions about it something i am free to do as much as you are able to hold your opinions whatever

point blank is perfectly balanced or something

[swift wharf]

what the fuck velocity is useful??????????????????

[ashen warren]

velocity vector trying to calculate on my pc (the motherboard will melt)

[fossil finch]

you know i think it'd have been better if we did never add point blank because then we wouldn't have to think about it ever

i love general class gimmicks i love general class gimmicks i love general class gimmicks (i am being held at gunpoint by fabso

[swift wharf]

but the ultrakill reference...

[frosty trellis]

Point Blank is based on distance travelled 12 frames (or 1/5th of a second) after the weapon has fired, which is based on velocity

[ashen warren]

point blank should’ve been worked into an accessory line but that’s a diff conversarion

[fossil finch]

no point blank should just not apply to bows

probably

i think

it being a general thing is ok but it applies to bows

[frosty trellis]

I mean fair, we don't need more reasons for Luminite Arrows to break everything

[fossil finch]

i will say i do not know how bows work but i do not think point blank shoots have the same effect as with a gun

[swift wharf]

and snipers

it affects snipers right

[fossil finch]

yes

[safe oasis]

it being a general thing is ok but it is also not ok?

[fossil finch]

though technically it would affect a sniper irl too

[swift wharf]

yes the long ranged weapon is better in close range I love point blank damage

[fossil finch]

it's just stupid

[ashen warren]

point blank shot i believe is based off of a D&D 3.5 feat by the same name, only usable with bows

[fossil finch]

no it's based of fabsol playing ultrakill once

[swift wharf]

kill point blank damage and add falloff

[fossil finch]

i am not joking

[ashen warren]

oh shit

my reference was too culturally relevant for an online modding team

fuck

[fossil finch]

it being a general thing is ok but make it make sense

i am perfectly understanding of the reference because you added all the context needed but still clarified where the mechanic comes from thank you

also i do not think d&d is any more culturally relevant than terraria modding

(it would not be a competition either)

[ashen warren]

in terms of profit, it indeed is

[fossil finch]

(d&d bodies)

[ashen warren]

but that’s a different conversation

[fossil finch]

that is because we do not profit of mods

because profiting of mods is kinda stupid

patreons are a thing yes but you know how that goes point is

[swift wharf]

calamity battle pass

[ashen warren]

open gaming license is

it’s

it’s hard

copyright? i barely knew her

[fossil finch]

it's not just about copyright it is just kinda

it's kinda shitty morally imo

[ashen warren]

it’s definitely weird to charge per month piggybacking off a $10 game

[fossil finch]

im perfectly fine with fangames being monetised but mods imo is just cringe
(the only thing preventing you from monetising a mod atm, aside of the eventual legal battle, is tmod's tos)

[fathom aspen]

Is there any test of it to prove that
since ele quiver(and DBrooch) seems to give weapons ExtraUpdate value instead of Velocity, which does not actually cut the "frames" it take to travel through

[frosty trellis]

I mean I've seen the velocity double with e.quiver on using Universal Genesis so

Did a few tests with that last night to prove late game guns have stupid point.blank distances of basically more than the entire screen

[fossil finch]

woo

[frosty trellis]

Being frame based and not distance based makes it incredibly dumb when you have stuff like d.breath with slugs having a velocity of like 800

[fossil finch]

perfectly designed new gitgud series

[frosty trellis]

LOL

[fathom aspen]

I mean, the extraUpdate value (the thing that "Greatly increases all ranged projectile velocity") given by quiver and brooch is not actual "velocity" value, that " extraUpdate" make projectiles travel twice the length, but it still counts as it took 2 frames to do that instead of 1. So it does not actually double the velocity and the point blank distance does not increase with DBrooch equipped

[frosty trellis]

Interesting

Huh

So quivers don't

But the point blank distance if you just use random bullshit bullets with 5-6x velocity bonus's make it ridiculous

[fathom aspen]

what actually increase point blank range is things like ESA which directly give +x% velocity

[frosty trellis]

Ic

Not like stuff at that stage needs more velocity when you can get 500+ with slugs since +6 velocity and 6x velocity multiplier is hilarious

[fathom aspen]

anyways imo it would be better for point blank range to be based on distance

[fossil finch]

it would be better for pbs to not ex

[frosty trellis]

It might not be doable

From what I've heard

But if quiver doesn't increase pb distance then D.Breath with slugs has a point blank distance of only 1242 blocks

[fathom aspen]

Isn't it possible to have a formula that is like, frames divided by velocity?

I guess that'd be better than depending only on frames

[frosty trellis]

Probably

[fathom aspen]

uh maybe not frames divided by velocity, sorry for my bad maths but something that include those 2 variables anyways

[drowsy plank]

i think the issue with point blank is something about the projectile being unable to track its position and junk about distances between the player and the enemy and the whole thing is just a fuckin mess. simply scaling point blank frames with velocity would probably fix this issue

also man these 600+ messages were something to come back to lmfao

[drowsy plank]

@queen light #1042197406776827914 but also this is already known and addressed

[small timber]

Ozz said something about removing lazhar infinite piercing I think?

Since its material Heat Ray only pierce once now

@sick lance not the right place to put that (and I dont think you can suggest development stuffs like this)

But mainly I think since it is development related you should be dming developers instead of posting it as a suggestion, I think

[distant gyro]

rather not

it technically counts as a future content suggestion

which is y'know

[sick lance]

oh

should i delete it and suggest one more time when it will be added?

[distant gyro]

yes, and by then it should just follow the typical suggestion conventions

[sick lance]

okay

[fossil finch]

archive is too small for a theme imo ngl

[distant gyro]

yeah

it has no exclusive content, not even like a shrine

[sick lance]

but still what do you think of the song itself?

oh sorry

[drowsy plank]

eh
it doesn't really give me dungeon vibes either lmao
at least from what i heard

[sick lance]

its shouldn't be dungeon lol

its other stuff

[fossil finch]

no it should be dungeon

its a place int he dungeon

it should not remove the feeling that you are in the dungeon

[sick lance]

idk to me its kinda same with dungeon

[drowsy plank]

???

do you mean you think it does sound like a dungeon theme

bc i did not really hear any of the possible dungeon themes, be it vanilla, heartplusup's extra music mod, or just cal's

[sick lance]

I even used Scott shelly's soundfont...

[drowsy plank]

idk id prolly need to listen to it again lol

[sick lance]

i used some instruments from vanilla dungeon song

[hollow shell]

@tranquil plover I disapprove EXTREMELY because that defeats the point of one of the core aspects of the ranger class
The only infinite ammo is the weakest ammo because it serves as a baseline
All stronger ammos require the resource commitment to use, balancing your desire for higher DPS with the commitment you put into obtaining that ammo

You're going to need a stronger reason than one that completely ignores/disregards that dynamic

[drowsy plank]

also there are other mods that do this already

so if you want it, just download one of them

[hollow shell]

There are yeah
Either actual pouch items or making it so having more than 3996 ammo in your inventory makes them nonconsumable

[frosty trellis]

Nycro's/Fargo's ftw

Also I will just state this outright: Besides chlorophyte and Hyperius bullets it is hilariously easy to grind up several thousand bullets in a matter of minutes for pretty much all bullets

One DoG kill is 30-40k god slayer slugs

Or 30-40k Vanquisher arrows

A moonlord kill gives you several thousand luminite bullets or arrows

A quick zerg in the underworld gets you several thousand holy fire bullets in a matter of minutes

To give some immediate examples

[swift wharf]

planetoids also exist

for luminite

[frosty trellis]

True

[swift wharf]

anyways nycro does that so

❗

[hollow shell]

(and doing this would further enforce the mindset of "I do not want to do anything that isn't fighting bosses"
Removing any kind of restocking, anything that you might have to do in between attempts)

[swift wharf]

😊

[frosty trellis]

(Just gid gud and you don't have to do much restocking past mid-hardmode)

[swift wharf]

me when I only restock in prehm

[slow lodge]

id like an infinite clentaminator bag type thing

[glass arch]

yeah infinite clentaminator juice would be nice

[frosty trellis]

Okay that would be mega based

[slow lodge]

they cost like

100x normal bullets/arrows

[hollow shell]

Clent is indeed different because it isn't combat-based

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

[slow lodge]

yeah

[hollow shell]

I'd have to think more on whether infinite solution would be a good idea or not

[slow lodge]

so i dont think it'd be as unfair to make it

[frosty trellis]

Even with the upgrade and potions in 1.4.4 having the option to not have to spend 80 plat to try and clean my world out would be nice

[slow lodge]

versus like an ichor bullet bag

[glass arch]

or at least make it cheaper

[frosty trellis]

^ that could work as well

It would also be nice to have it cheaper for moving my Astral Infection

Because it sometimes doesn't spawn where I like it too

Or not at all if I forgor about skybridges bugging it out

[swift wharf]

Why add infinite solutions

if you can expand the clentaminator arsenal

[slow lodge]

cause they cost a lot

[swift wharf]

[slow lodge]

i dont need a jungle biome i need no crimson

[swift wharf]

Who said it had to be jungle solutions

[slow lodge]

though the base game should add a jungle solution

[glass arch]

not gonna be necessary

[slow lodge]

thats like the only biome that doesnt have a clentaminator thing

[swift wharf]

Anywyas where are the cool clentaminator sidegrades and accessories

🥺

[glass arch]

bc mud doesnt get dried out on infection anymore

[slow lodge]

they removed the crimson killing jungle thing

so i need jungle clentaminator to restore it right

[frosty trellis]

Shimmer in 1.4.4 for the upgrade
And the potions exist now too ig

[slow lodge]

like i dont wanna have to rebuild a whole jungle

[swift wharf]

i need MORE

[glass arch]

green solution works

[swift wharf]

terraformer is endgame smh

[slow lodge]

when they've already expanded clentaminator solutions

[frosty trellis]

Post ML in calamity since that's not getting changed

Only Rod of Harmony is getting changed

[swift wharf]

this is when I swallow my pride and think that turning the axe of purity tree into a clentaminator type of gear would be cool

post ml is endgame

[slow lodge]

nahhh

[slow lodge]

yeah that makes sense

[frosty trellis]

Endgame is post SCal/Exos

[slow lodge]

to what point though

[frosty trellis]

Post SCal/Exos

[slow lodge]

really

[swift wharf]

endgame late game whatever

postml is the shortest of the 3

[slow lodge]

unless its the exact same i dont see the point in it

[frosty trellis]

Bc RoH would be hilariously overpowered for SCal

[glass arch]

same for exos

[frosty trellis]

It's RoD with no Chaos State but post SCal/Exos now instead of post ml

[swift wharf]

cal kind of expands hardmode long enough that terraformer isnt really useful in post ml

[slow lodge]

yeah but they changed how the rod works

[frosty trellis]

Exos less so, SCal just gets bh cheesed

[slow lodge]

you can only teleport once every 15 seconds

[frosty trellis]

Rod of Harmony has no chaos state at all

[glass arch]

rod of harmony doesnt have a cooldown

[slow lodge]

so if they do a change as significant i dont see the point

[swift wharf]

why did I hate you 😭

[slow lodge]

but if its 1:1 then yeah im fine with it

[frosty trellis]

Rod of Harmony, not discord, has no cooldown and no drawback

[slow lodge]

my question is hows the reality displacer gonna be worked with

[frosty trellis]

NR isn't getting changed and not getting a RoH sidegrade

[slow lodge]

i know im just concerned they'll change it in a significant way like chaos state

[slow lodge]

alright

[glass arch]

they wont

[slow lodge]

good

[frosty trellis]

They are not

[glass arch]

they will just retier it

[frosty trellis]

I literally said

[slow lodge]

then its fine being scal/exo

[frosty trellis]

It's just post SCal/Exos

That's it

[slow lodge]

alright thats fine

[frosty trellis]

I never said anything else LOL

[slow lodge]

yeah its just a concern ive had

but not anymore

[frosty trellis]

Ye

It's fine

[slow lodge]

probably should do something with it

[frosty trellis]

15 second RoD is already insane

NO

PLEASE NO

DO NOT GIVE ROH A NR SIDEGRADE

[swift wharf]

anyways a clentaminator accessory that reduces solution costs would still be cool

[slow lodge]

not that

[swift wharf]

normality relocator sucks anyway lo]

[slow lodge]

i meant doing something with the normality relocator so you use it over the rod of harmony/discord

[frosty trellis]

Weapons with low use-time:

NR is great

[slow lodge]

yk what

[frosty trellis]

You can tp mid use

[swift wharf]

swap faster

fargo's keybind

[slow lodge]

they could just replace all relocators with a rod of harmony

[swift wharf]

jokes aside mpg just gave you an use

[slow lodge]

🧌

[frosty trellis]

NR gives you a keybind to teleport in exchange for a longer chaos state

It's actually amazing

I just prefer RoD

[slow lodge]

yeah that can work

[frosty trellis]

Can work? That's literally what it does lol

[slow lodge]

its just the rod seems way better especially with the rod of harmony being a thing

[neat linden]

Imagine if NR wasn't created in the first place

[swift wharf]

what does rod of fucking harmony have to do with NR

💀

[errant bobcat]

The ammo suggestion Fargos mutant mod already covers, and anybody sensible is using that outside of slime god and boss rush

[swift wharf]

brother its an upgrade of both

[frosty trellis]

NR is amazing with stuff like Ice Barrage having a usetime of like 1400

[swift wharf]

we know

[slow lodge]

both are made with the rod of discord

so you have to choose where you wanna put the one you have

[frosty trellis]

NR is post moonlord
RoH is endgame

It's fine

[slow lodge]

yeah

[frosty trellis]

It;s progressive

It doesn't matter

[swift wharf]

no you don't need to choose

it's an upgrade

[frosty trellis]

i don't see any point in you argument

[slow lodge]

it really doesnt though cause of the wizard

[swift wharf]

[neat linden]

300 use time

Cause like

[swift wharf]

how long is that

[neat linden]

5s

[swift wharf]

5 seconds?

[frosty trellis]

5 seconds where you can't do anything but hold ice barrage

[neat linden]

1400 use time would be approx. 23 seconds

i love holding a weapon for 23 seconds straight

[frosty trellis]

So Apocotosis bc it takes that long for it to do anything

[swift wharf]

old infinity

💀

[neat linden]

sotrue

[frosty trellis]

Pre buff infinity right click having a 10 minute Yharon kt with fabsols vodka and spiteful candles :)

[neat linden]

very balanced* killtime

• for a early post ml weapon maybe and even that is a huge question mark

[swift wharf]

well you only had to fire once

[neat linden]

infinity when it was tier shifted but pretty much not buffed

[royal tapir]

Pre-buff Infinity

🍿

[drowsy plank]

tbh even when RoH exists im likely still gonna be using NR because rod on a hotkey is so fuckin busted

[distant gyro]

people are too new for 18000 use time infinity

[frosty trellis]

18,000???????????????

That's like, 3 minutes

Unless I'm just doing my math horrible wrong

[distant gyro]

5 minutes

[frosty trellis]

DEAR GOD

So basically playing Summoner as Ranger

Click once and let the rest do the work

[distant gyro]

still having to aim

[frosty trellis]

That's moving your cursor

Towards a large target

Because it's infinity

You can vaguely gesture at something and it will get hit at least once

[grim tusk]

@winter anchor Slime gun and Sparkle slime balloons exist (and neither stack with each other)

As for oiled… theres none

Suggestion needs title

@tranquil plover install Fargo’s Mutant

[tranquil plover]

no need

I just figured out I'm more mentally deficient than I initially believed

[fossil finch]

there is an oiled weapon

totality breaker

[swift wharf]

^

It can even use stealth strikes!

[grim tusk]

(Spamming is generally better for T. breakers)

[grim tusk]

(Not classless still)

[swift wharf]

It's classless for all classes except summoner so like

lol

And with summoner, you have a whip in hands most of the time so no loss

[drowsy plank]

lmao

symbiote is dying anyway

but also i suppose it ain't the worst idea

[frosty trellis]

Yeah fungal symbiote is getting reworked

But locaters would be so nice

[small timber]

@drowsy peak biome shrine are getting rework, there is a chance their generation become more consistent

Main thing is we dont know yet, so probably leave the suggestion for next patch, and if it is still incredibly random to find then you suggest it by then

[hollow shell]

No idea how soon that patch is coming

[slow lodge]

What does any of this mean in #suggestions-voting

[cobalt pewter]

@harsh zinc

no

no formatting, no reasoning, no balance suggs, no bi

[blazing kettle]

isnt murasama good enough

[glass arch]

@harsh zinc check the pins, there is a thread specifically for balancing, and you need actual proof other than "I think its bad"

[frosty trellis]

Quite so

Murasama is more than fine

[glass arch]

maybe not the overall #1 melee weapon but its true melee

so theres only so much you can do

@wispy nova same for you

[blazing kettle]

they probably dont like their oversized cherry push pop cant hit scal consistantly

[glass arch]

lmao

i have never seen mura be called an oversized cherry push pop but it fits

[blazing kettle]

isnt omniblade more than good too?

iirc its debuff is really good

[glass arch]

i have no idea

i have never used it

[slow lodge]

The only ONLY thing to do to murasama is to make it pierce walls (use another weapon)

Dont make it pass through walls

Its already good enough

[blazing kettle]

givei it back its wind orb from years ago‼️‼️

[glass arch]

yeah 2k base damage is just a little good

[blazing kettle]

the only downside i can think of is that it can hit anything below it

[hollow shell]

(sorry if either of you were editing your suggestions before I deleted them)

(I didn't want a meme train to start)

But uh yeah balance suggs are disallowed anyway
Go to the #1042197406776827914 thread

[wispy nova]

my bad

if cloud elemental could do more damage/attacks or when you make the heart of elements she does a bit more damage

[frosty trellis]

It's crazy

[slow lodge]

Whispering death

[stable kiln]

omniblade is crazy lmao yeah

its got something with its hitrate that makes it hit several times per swing which makes it deal crazy amounts of damage

[frosty trellis]

Uhhhhh, don't summons already do the provi thing for guardains phase? I remember it doing that

Also like, right clicking with your summon weapon to re-target exists

[ashen warren]

No it's not automatic

It's very very annoying since Providence is already a hard boss and by that point in the fight you need to focus on like 30 things at once

So needing to make sure you hit the right guardian with a whip is extremely annoying

[frosty trellis]

Right

Click

Don't need to whip

Just right click

I do that all the time

Summon weapon in hand, right click the guardian of choice

While testing summoner I'm not even allowed to use whips so this is what I do and it works just fine

Like, you can just give targetting priority that way
Why should summoner get special treatment for that anyways when other classes need to aim (and have their homing shit not hit the wrong guardian)

This seems like a very minor thing that could apply to any other homing weapon for any class as well

[crude geode]

Having to right click with a normal summon weapon is annoying when using whips, but also that’s a vanilla problem not a cal one

[small timber]

dont you just dont attack with kaleidoscope and it will not mistarget

since it will remember your first target that you hit

and you can also still right click with summon weapon for retarget, by which it complete ignore/solve the issue of kaleidoscope's gigantic hitbox by basically not requiring you to hit at all to target

(so MPG mentioned yeah)

[ashen warren]

Providence is already hard enough as a summoner since a single hit pretty much does 1/3 of your hp so needing to focus on which guardian is the healer is just annoying and unnecessary

[frosty trellis]

1/3rd? Huh?

[ashen warren]

It's just a small fix that improves qol

[frosty trellis]

What difficulty are you playing on

[ashen warren]

Master mode death mode

[crude geode]

[small timber]

the game is not balanced around master mode

[frosty trellis]

Okay well there is your problem

Your problem is master mode not calamity

[ashen warren]

It does 1/5th on expert anyway

[small timber]

play it at your own risk, you will simply take gigantic damage and that is just how it is

1/5 is WAY less than 1/3

[frosty trellis]

The mod is balanced around Expert
Master is literally just stat bloat

[frosty trellis]

Bro have you tried having any defensive shit

[ashen warren]

Death mode makes debuffs do more damage so defence doesn't really matter for prov

[small timber]

just use celestial shell

[crude geode]

Average cal fan when defense exists:

[small timber]

but ya in this case I think the problem you specified already have solution for

and I dont think the suggestion is like, a very good solution either: what if the first guardian you damage is not the guardian you want to kill?

each guardian provide a different stat to providence, what if you want to target healer guardian but since the first one damage is the offensive one providence just heal to full?

[ashen warren]

Ok the suggestion is literally a small fix that makes the boss a little easier for summoners

[small timber]

I think the problem is more that the solution here is not exactly a good fix

[inner anvil]

I would say that summons should target the Healer guardian first then others, because it's the first thing you should kill.

[small timber]

is the suggestion referring to providence or profaned guardian?

[ashen warren]

Well i also think haveing minions auto prioritize certain enemys takes control away from the player. Either you tell your minions what to attack or you accept they attack random. Like what else do you do as summoner, just dodge.

True

[ashen warren]

Both

[small timber]

ok yeah I thought you are only referring to providence since the talk above was about providence

yeah summon should just target them in order for profaned guardian fight

[inner anvil]

Apart from that, there's nothing else to say, I don't even understand the suggestion.

[ashen warren]

Ok let me change it

[small timber]

for providence' profaned guardian I will say it can still be subjective: you can technically kill defense first then just ignore healer and burst down providence herself with adrenaline, or more importantly that (personal experience) I tend to ignore offensive guardian because it dont really do anything and focus providence once the other 2 are down, but with auto targeting you dont really have that freedom

[frosty trellis]

I also tend to ignore providence offense

[frosty trellis]

I take like 129-143 damage per hit in my tester build (And I don't even have absorber equipped and only 3 warding)
What do you mean

Expert-Death

Also like

[ashen warren]

And the crystals that prov spawns?

[frosty trellis]

Summoner is the class that lets you focus on dodging so like
Focus on so many things but actually allowing you to dodge bc whips aren't mandatory?

[frosty trellis]

Yeah that's the 143

[small timber]

providence just dont really do a lot of damage in expert yeah

[ashen warren]

And the little stars and spears that prov shoots?

[small timber]

as soon as you negate her debuff with celestial shell her damage is just pitiful

[frosty trellis]

Spears were 120ish
Stars were 143

[frosty trellis]

Oh I just had community for debuff damage reduction

[ashen warren]

What game are playing? It does 223 for me on expert death mode as a summoner

[frosty trellis]

Loadout I'm using, 1 quick 3 warding 3 menacing for reforges

[small timber]

warding helps a lot, and the build MPG referring above tend to be "balanced build" where it is half offensive and half defensive
(and potion buffs)

[frosty trellis]

And I use angel treds and not absorber

So it could be even less and I would have more hp that way

Warding is hilariously overpowered
Defense in general outside of MDFTW is hilariously overpowered

[small timber]

even for MDFTW it is good

[frosty trellis]

Yeah it's just only good there

[small timber]

except against contact damage, that is the breaking point

[frosty trellis]

Not the hilarity that it is in any other difficulty

[frosty trellis]

Wdym

[small timber]

expert warding is near invincibility, on master you are a massive tank with full warding

[frosty trellis]

I remember swapping to full warding once I hit provi on my first master death run and oh my god the defense

[small timber]

contact damage get amplified to an absurd degree on mdftw where defense don't really do anything until end game, you have to rely a lot on DR

[frosty trellis]

Fair

Good thing frozen shield is like, actually stupidly good for no reason

[small timber]

500 post-defense damage from mechanical twins' contact charge

[frosty trellis]

God DAMN

[frosty trellis]

Seriously why does rampart have full frozen shield Dr it's so ridiculous

[crude geode]

Balancing

Also probably so people (see: cal players) would be more inclined to actually use defensive options

(It did not work)

[frosty trellis]

It did not work

At all

Because people don't understand how broken defense is

[ashen warren]

Defence makes people worse players

[crude geode]

[frosty trellis]

I'm sorry?

[crude geode]

Actual 5 IQ statement

[ashen warren]

It's really not, relying on defence is bad

[frosty trellis]

Okay then if you want to make that argument then let me make the other stupid counterargument:
Using Rage/Adrenaline makes people worse players

[crude geode]

TRUE

Nerf adrenaline

[frosty trellis]

Adren does need a nerf

But I wouldn't exactly say using them makes you a worse player by any means

[ashen warren]

To be fair, revengence is not hard enough to deserve adrenaline and rage

[frosty trellis]

Difficulty is subjective

I don't use rippers regardless of difficulty

[crude geode]

Rippers should be on all difficulties

[frosty trellis]

Not my thing, I personally like learning the boss pattern and not melting anything as for me that makes me better but there is a serious argument to be made that knowing how to abuse the living shit out of rippers can make you a better player depending

[small timber]

I know this is like the most extreme spectrum of "mdftw", but yeah contact damage is full death there

[frosty trellis]

Oh that's on your creative shock pt zamn

[ashen warren]

I did my first playthrough as melee with full warding and tanking accessories and it completely messed me up when I tried other classes without warding

[crude geode]

Woah it’s almost like. there’s an intentional difference

[frosty trellis]

Tankiest class + Full warding = Haha I can't die

[small timber]

funnily enough, I think I was at full warding, for that fight

[frosty trellis]

But like melee is supposed to be tanky up in your face

[frosty trellis]

Good lord

[ashen warren]

Melee is literally just a mage without mana and more defence unless you play true melee

[frosty trellis]

If mage didn't have some of the most batshit weapons ever and varying playstyles for a lot of them I would agree

[crude geode]

Classes be like: What funny projectiles would you like and how often would you like them

[frosty trellis]

Oh right, I forgot summons are considered projectiles

[crude geode]

Clearly, this means that sepulcher should delete them

[frosty trellis]

By that logic Sepulcher should delete Muarasama

[crude geode]

True

Anyways yeah not being able to right click with whips to target someone specific is really annoying but also like. Cal solve every vanilla problem challenge

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

Just don't use whips

There is your answer

Not like you need them

[crude geode]

Do whips even have damage in current cal

[small timber]

yes I think

according to many the whip tag already become % damage, though I dont think the tooltip is changed

[crude geode]

Yeah right that was the change

Rip blade staff being viable for moon lord

or whatever stupid shit it was

[small timber]

and armor pen is going rampant anyway since it is apparently bugged and 2x as effective

[frosty trellis]

Serpentine randomly viable for cultists moment

[small timber]

wait a minute

does whip tag even works

ok I am pretty sure whip tag damage doesnt work right now

[frosty trellis]

Atm no it's bugged

Known bug, fixed next update

That's been known for awhile

[small timber]

ok, was about to report it since it is not listed under known bug list in the bug report channel

[frosty trellis]

You still get flasks buffs though and pre polter some okayish damage

[small timber]

I guess that one just didnt list everything

[frosty trellis]

Yeah fair

[hollow shell]

@kindred creek Is "Gelatinous Pylon" a Vanities item?

[quiet kernel]

Isnt it the vanilla queen slime drop

Yea it is

[hollow shell]

Oh, this
https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Gelatinous_Pillion

[cobalt heath]

make it drop astral pylon

done

[hollow shell]

Okay he was saying that the Bean mount isn't worth it cuz this mount is better

I thought he was comparing Aureus drops

It is indeed misspelled

[cobalt heath]

Bean is great

a gimmick mount but what mount isn't a gimmick

[kindred creek]

I’m just saying that aureus is a challenging fight and isn’t worth it for the rewards it provides

[cobalt heath]

and don't say the infinite flight ones

[hollow shell]

(thank you for correcting the name, Equinox)

and byeah perhaps

[tardy geyser]

Adrenaline upgrade and the astral enemies start dropping weapons

[hollow shell]

He does have notable Mage potion unlocks
Aureus Cells and Astral Injections

[hollow shell]

He did indeed not mention the Astral enemy drops but I assumed he just lumped them all in as his "drops", same with the Astral Dungeon Chest item

[kindred creek]

True, but mage mana consumption reduction gets pretty cracked in calamity

Also, aureus does so much damage you basically have to know the fight perfectly to not get rekt because mage is a glass cannon.

Like I play death mode pretty often but aureus I almost always skip because he is so unreasonably hard and just not worth it to fight on tier.

[hollow shell]

perhaps. perhaps.

((what I'm thinking is if there should be a follow-up suggestion that gives the same argument for Leviathan & Anahita
Who are also incredibly skippable))

[kindred creek]

True

[small timber]

according to that logic 90% of bosses not required for progression can be skipped

[kindred creek]

The logic I have for aureus is that he is too much of a challenge for the provided loot

[small timber]

EoL is basically useless except for soaring insignia, PBG is useless because you can just get other weapon, Leviathan is useless since you can just get other weapon, deus is ultra useless since you only do it for lunar fragment by which you can just do lunar event instead

[kindred creek]

Hence why he needs more impact on the game to make it worth the trouble

[small timber]

how challenging a boss is is subjective

[kindred creek]

But Deus takes way less time than lunar events

[small timber]

in fact it is currently bugged which is why aureus is that hard

[kindred creek]

Leviathan gives the community which is useful because if you have an open accessory slot it can be used as a filler

Oh, so they’re making him easier

Still think he needs better loot

[small timber]

you cannot rate an entire boss of its usefulness based on just 1 accessory

in fact I will argue aureus is much more useful, because alcohols are extremely powerful, and adrenaline upgrade is great

[kindred creek]

I just like leviathan because it’s fun

[small timber]

which becomes even more subjective

[kindred creek]

This isn’t about leviathan tho

This is about aureus

[small timber]

I think the suggestion have its ground yes, just I think explicitly the reasoning declared in the suggestion of "this boss is not useful" is just not really true

[kindred creek]

And if it is about leviathan not being useful, give leviathan more purpose too instead of discrediting the argument and saying “leave them useless”

I didn’t say it was useless

[small timber]

what I mean is that if you think leviathan is useful because of 1 accessory, aureus should also be useful considering it also provides a large amount of benefits

[kindred creek]

I said it needs to be more valuable since it isn’t worth the loot given the challenge

[hollow shell]

Aureus gives you like 6 new potions, a summoner acc as part of the Nucleogenesis line, new wings, a fast-fall mount and acc (though the acc needs a buff), Adren upgrade, and more than one set of weapons

Levi is just the one set of weapons, an acc as part of HotE, a useless liquid-based damage-dealing accessory, a good universal stat accessory, and redundant fishing drops, with basically zero aftermath unlocks

[tardy geyser]

Aureus already unlocks a lot of new items they just need to be buffed if they aren't strong enough

[kindred creek]

So what you’re saying is that aureus needs a loot buff

[hollow shell]

Yeah I don't mean this to say "Aureus doesn't need more purpose, because Levi is even more purposeless"
I'm just sayin, they are also subject to this same suggestion, worth looking into

Your suggestion is aight imo

[kindred creek]

Aight

[hollow shell]

Aureus is indeed tough as nails notoriously

In both defensiveness and offensiveness

Unintuitive AI, deals a lot of damage, ridiculous def and DR

Though the AI and def/DR are getting partially resolved soon

[kindred creek]

Personally I think he needs a nerf but I asked about that a while ago and people said it was a bad suggestion

[hollow shell]

He is apparently going to be given Old Duke-like exhaustion phases

[small timber]

I think it was about the move set rather than just overbloated stat that aureus have which is why people disagreed a lot with it

[kindred creek]

Old duke is still hard af

[small timber]

sry referring to this, in case it is confusing

[hollow shell]

Actually fuck, you wanna talk about giving a boss purpose? Old Duke should get added to that list too

Just a weapon set, a conditional stat-stick acc, and a damage-dealing minion, with basically zero aftermath
Actually very comparable to Levi & Ana

[kindred creek]

Ok, but the magic staff he gives shreds DoG

But fair point

[hollow shell]

I don't give too much credit to weapon viability considering how volatile the balance realm is

[small timber]

though old duke case was it was explicitly made to not have a purpose which makes it harder yeah

last time I remember someone suggesting to make old duke locking post-Polter abyss drop but was deneid because of that reasoning

[hollow shell]

(oh I have a lot of things that I could say about that
But, not now)

[small timber]

yeah I dont like that approach either

[hollow shell]

gotta hold myself back from clarifying and elaborating, or else I'll be ranting for hours

[small timber]

actually if you get down to it

how many bosses actually have a purpose

I mean optional/non-progression bosses of course

[hollow shell]

byeah, hard to give PreHM and HM bosses significant purpose because we can't make them integral to progression and a lot of the main purpose niches are already fulfilled by vanilla

And, hard to give Old Duke purpose because he's so far out of the way

All modded bosses before ML must be optional by necessity, unless we do real weird and controversial changes to progression
And we can't give them super amazing drops/unlocks to make up for that lest we powercreep the fuck outta the game

[small timber]

most of their drops powercreeps those you get just from progression boss (eg: PBG and fishron drop compare to Golem) to be honest
just ya, it dont really count as a purpose for this context

[hollow shell]

(You can kinda break from the nonprogression-necessity by having a PreML boss be necessary to beat in order to access PostML stuff later, like Clonelamitas to SCal
But that doesn't give Clone purpose on the tier that you fight her. You can just ignore her and then go annihilate her right before SCal and be perfectly fine)

[small timber]

and also it is hard to just make every boss unlock something exploration related (eg: Cryogen giving cryonic ore) without making it just a constant sequence of > boss -> mine -> boss

[hollow shell]

Hey at least it's better than boss -> boss -> boss

[small timber]

to be honest I am fine with many bosses being optional and dont serve a mandatory purpose
imo as long as you can get something from them, eg actual upgrade I am fine with that

[cobalt pewter]

bosses can be optional, but when the boss is batshit insane to fight against with barely any loots, why even bother

[small timber]

or just make it Ravager case, where it drops several accessory that literally have no replacement effect

[cobalt pewter]

people only bothered because adren upgrade

and I guess 3 mage players want some stuff too idfk

[small timber]

(most) of aureus drops are pretty useful to very good I think, but for me mainly is just alcohols

before they actually considered them to be overpowered I will just keep abusing them whenever I can

[hollow shell]

Yeah a good realm to go down is real frickin niche but useful unlocks
Usually stuff with trade-offs so it's not necessarily powercreep but still potentially desirable

[small timber]

'sidegrades' yeah, though for weapon can be upgrades

[hollow shell]

The other realm is having them unlock something.. fun, that isn't the boss itself
But that requires designing something fun that isn't a boss

[cobalt pewter]

god I'm sobbing over Sabaton

I like how the sugg mentioned bean but Sabaton is left in the dust

💀

[small timber]

if sabaton have no cooldown there is a chance

last time I used the argument of slime mount being clunky and stop momentum/bounce on enemy, but after realising Pogo Stick is literally what Sabaton try to accomplish but better even at 0 cooldown is just

[hollow shell]

I proposed in the dev server that Sabaton get reworked "as soon as possible", and got approval from the devs and testers
But that was uhhh two months ago, and no changelogs yet

[small timber]

to be honest what exactly can it be rework into

[hollow shell]

This is the primary thing

[small timber]

the only thing I thought of is Eternity's Golem drop

[cobalt pewter]

I think it'd be interesting if the Sabaton fall goes through platforms at any angle

you need to go through platforms at a specific angle to ignore them while falling

[cobalt pewter]

elaborate?

[hollow shell]

Like literally at the very bare minimum
just remove the fast-fall cooldown, make the cooldown only apply for the impact explosion

[cobalt pewter]

(I don't play souls)

[small timber]

this thing

[cobalt pewter]

ahh

[hollow shell]

Yeah that is just what Sabaton should be

[small timber]

the thing is at some point I thought devs did say they want to make press S just ignore platform in general

[cobalt pewter]

on the offtopic, I like how any given souls acc that isn't in phm will always give immunities

it's silly

[cobalt pewter]

huh

[small timber]

tldr is they stick a bunch of extremely annoying debuff onto each boss and you get immunity to them once you beat them, which is why their accessory always give debuff

like in this case Fused and Low Ground are both Golem's debuff I think

[hollow shell]

The rest of my proposal in the dev server was integrating Sabaton into the fabled non-Terra/Seraph boots line
The movement focused boots line as opposed to the generalist-combining-features boots line

But I tried making it very clear in my proposal that Sabaton can get reworked before we commit to that plan

Yet, alas...

[cobalt pewter]

pff

it'll take a year at best

and I'd love to be proven wrong

[small timber]

:devplans.png: 🔜

[hollow shell]

(I find it amusing that Sabaton has literally no changelogs aside from the one adding it)

(almost 3 years ago)

[cobalt pewter]

holy fuck that's an achievement

[small timber]

1/27/2020: 190 - Added Gravistar Sabaton
12/21/2022: 230 - Removed Gravistar Sabaton

[cobalt pewter]

god that'd be funny

[small timber]

truly a moment

[hollow shell]

I think the only things that changed about it in that time are it becoming no longer an Expert acc (as part of the big group move of all Expert accs), its sell price changing, and a 1 second nerf to its debuff duration,
from what I can see on the wiki

And that debuff change may have just been a wiki mistake that was corrected and it literally never changed in the mod

So yeah it got added and then completely left in the dust

for 3 years

[cobalt pewter]

god!

[small timber]

the only thing it got was a nerf

[cobalt pewter]

true true

[hollow shell]

Honey, it was nerfed when it was added

[cobalt pewter]

god......

why is this thing so

[hollow shell]

No idea why it got ignored
It's not like we never talked about buffing it, we did plenty of times

[small timber]

I think is probably like, no one have any idea on how to rework/change it?

removing cooldown is only a reasonable buff but 99% of people will still not use it

[hollow shell]

And the fact that it was so useless that.. nobody used it, and therefore nobody thought about it

[swift wharf]

AEW

[hollow shell]

funny aew

[small timber]

just give gravistar sabaton random thing like +10% damage, or permafrost concoction's revive effect

stat stick meta

[cobalt pewter]

god

[hollow shell]

hell yeah the 2017 Calamity way

Just throw stats at it