suggestions-discussion

[swift wharf]

nooo keep visage

25% damage funny

[frosty trellis]

Better visual and hitbox, fixed iframes, armor pen and inflicts the stronger debuffs

[cobalt pewter]

they'd probably nuke it when they ported it to 1.4.4

[eternal escarp]

visage will die for the new helmet

[swift wharf]

pls do not

[eternal escarp]

since its like

[swift wharf]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[eternal escarp]

practically the same

[swift wharf]

😭

[eternal escarp]

and yeah its the rocket helmet that became

"The COOL subclass" helmet

[small timber]

since he seemingly is not here for now...

[cobalt pewter]

true

[swift wharf]

rip free 10% damage

got dAMN

[eternal escarp]

oh no!

[small timber]

@drowsy plank I think it will be beneficial for the suggestion to also set down "what is a wing that is currently properly balanced as a post-plantera wing"

[cobalt pewter]

shroomite still has garbage set bonus

but at least its rocket helmet becomes the based helmet

[small timber]

otherwise we have no idea what the suggestion wants to buff or nerf

[swift wharf]

DREADED mini nukes

[eternal escarp]

guess we will balance flamethrowers at the tier without that 10% damage!

[cobalt pewter]

okay real talk though, wings

[eternal escarp]

or whatever

[cobalt pewter]

how cat boom is it to nuke most of the filler extra wing stats

[swift wharf]

betting on eld melter becoming even stronger on 1.4.4

[drowsy plank]

yeah that makes sense, i mostly just wanted to buff the damage of the class locked wings to be better than the generics if ur gonna be sacrificing wing time for it

those aren't post plant, and im pretty sure there's already something in voting about how miserable the entire frost set in general is so im leaving that for a diff sugg

[swift wharf]

113 damage
15 armor pen
frostbite
fixed iframes

[swift wharf]

yeah that's fair

[tropic sleet]

Yes eld melter becomes good in 1.4.4

[swift wharf]

I know

If the cal buff is kept

[tropic sleet]

Along with the og flamethrower

[small timber]

it is strange that they give flamethrower armor pen, instead of like... just buff damage

[swift wharf]

It will be REALLY good

[frosty trellis]

They did both

[swift wharf]

vanilla deals 60 (1.4.3) damage

53 in 1.4.4

in cal it's 113

[frosty trellis]

Oh

Nerfed in vanilla

[swift wharf]

and they didn't buff damage

[frosty trellis]

Then gave it armor pen

[tropic sleet]

And a stronger debuff

[swift wharf]

113 damage easily becomes 200+ by that time

• free damage from armor pen

epic aureus W

[small timber]

stronger debuff makes sense, because a post-Plant or whatever hardmode weapon just inflicting on fire is just pity

[swift wharf]

actually how good is 1.4.4 melter on eol?

I should test that

[tardy smelt]

Festive Wings have a surprisingly high damage output, I've found

[swift wharf]

how strong are the ornaments wtf

[drowsy plank]

does that look better?

[swift wharf]

I could see tattered wings getting a rework

like make it the opposite of fairy wings

reduce health but give dmg

[small timber]

I think the suggestion can be retitled to "rebalance post-Plantera class wings"?

[drowsy plank]

not enough characters

[small timber]

since it seems that the main thing you want to do is to buff the underpowered class wings that just get outclassed

I think a lot of it can be more conscise, sec

[cobalt pewter]

I'm surprised there's not really any wings that try to utilize the gliding mechanic at all

granted you need to exhaust flight time to use it in the first place

but really?

[drowsy plank]

mothron isn't a class wing either but it still sucks

"ayo i get an ENTIRE warding and menacing modifier just for giving up an entire second of flight time?? letsgooooo"

so i think the title is fine

[swift wharf]

stealth wing when

[cobalt pewter]

god

[drowsy plank]

also aureate booster is still dogshit but it's so bad and has been such a point of contention i didnt even mention it

[small timber]

(using ms paint is abit scuffed)

[drowsy plank]

if they gave it hover like hoverboard maybe it would be useful

[cobalt pewter]

Aureate Booster should've just been a vertical exclusive wings just to fuck with everyone

and maybe a hover but like

[small timber]

but ya tldr I think the suggestion (wording) can be changed to

1 paragraph = generic wings too good, meanwhile class specific wings garbage

2nd paragraph = buff class specific wings

[cobalt pewter]

hover is kinda ass as it's not as well thought out

[small timber]

that way it is a lot more clear what you want

[drowsy plank]

is that better?

[small timber]

it should be fine I think?

but ya I missed your idea and thougth that you just wanted to buff class specific wings to be on-par with generics, though seeing the wording it is probably to buff/nerf them as they see fit

so the current wording should be ok

oh right I just remember 1 thing that armor pen does better than more damage (when applied to base item)

it scales less with damage increase, since armor pen don't scale while base damage scales fully; so ya the 15 armor pen flamethrower gets is not exactly just for flavour

[swift wharf]

and it hits

a lot

[tardy smelt]

I think they got shadowbuffed via Christmas Tree Sword getting buffed...?

[swift wharf]

guh

probably is that

[upper fulcrum]

true tyrants ultisword should get a buff imo since its post providence yet it's damage is on par with elemental weapons which are only post moonlord

[sand ermine]

its homing

homing stuff is meant to do less damage, because its homing

you dont need to aim as much, or even aim as a result

[thorn dock]

@lost valley how about ursa sergeant merging into astral arcanum? both focus on giving defense and life regen when in a stressful situation (under a debuff/ while a low hp) also ursa sergeant doesnt merge into anything. Tried to suggest ursa merging into the rampart tree but that one got destroyed, also for fishing reasons.

another reason was rampart beeing way too op already

[frosty trellis]

Rampart is the single most broken defensive accessory by a mile yeah

[lost valley]

yeah that'd be a nice addition, it just needs way more to be even worth looking at

esp when their effects are cut in half while using any alchs

[thorn dock]

yes arcanum appears rather weak for the progression point

some addition to it would be legitimate

[lost valley]

celestial could get something too, a weaker version of that when at the same time you get the community

which also does it's job but is way better

[thorn dock]

since community mitigates damage from dots and also give regen while under a debuff, arcanum and celest appear to just be much weaker version of the community

[lost valley]

yup, doesnt help that community never gets outclassed

[distant gyro]

is it though

community's mitigation is like 1 regen point

band of regen is literally more effective

[lost valley]

at the time you'd get it it'd be 2

just kinda weird that the moment you'd be able to get an acc, theres something that does exactly what it does (but worse) but is overall a way better acc

[cobalt pewter]

Mounted Scanner got the best treatment possible

if it just got tanked in damage, the constant attack rate will just put it into armor pen hell

[small timber]

it is a post mech weapon

the previous version is literally viable post-golem

it is one of the most accurate summon weapon in the game too

[cobalt pewter]

if anything I would love a Mounted Scanner upgrade that brings the constant attack rate somewhere in late PML (like how Nanogun and Dynamic Pursuer are arsenal upgrades)

but with its intended progression point and the theming of the weapon, Mounted Scanner is in a good spot now

[small timber]

well those are basically reserved for devs position at this point (since it is really hard to make a valid suggestion for weapon upgrade with a proper reasoning)

but yeah

[frosty trellis]

2nd best summon for ml*

[cobalt pewter]

@waxen umbra read above

[small timber]

(also I just realised it is a balance suggestion so it should be ping testers instead)

[small timber]

weapon buff/nerf suggestions are done through pinging testers now, not through posting a suggestion in #suggestions-posting

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

Goes to open tMod to see for myself if it's that bad or not

[cobalt pewter]

xp has tried it a while back I think

he also wondered about the fire rate nerf

[small timber]

I think nerfing either fire rate or damage are both reasonable, just it feels really bad to play (not necessarily a bad weapon)

since fire rate is basically QoL, you can miss more without missing damage, so missing QoL feels much worse than just less damage
but yeah with armor pen taking into consideration nerfing fire rate is more reasonable

I will just try it on twins and brimstone to see if it is good

[frosty trellis]

It's a post 1 mech weapon so it's supposed to be used on post 1 mech dest, twins and AS

Will probably just test everything up and including plant

[small timber]

I think it should be viable for all mechs I think

I will say good for all mechs and mechs alts, average for calclone and plantera

at least that should be the expectation

because otherwise if you kill prime last it is basically useless

[frosty trellis]

It's very good for dest, a little strong on 2nd mech twins so far

[cobalt pewter]

first off, isn't Evasion Scarf a dono

how does this fall into the limits of dono items

second off, why

it has been established

multiple times

in this channel at least

that the Aegis line is the one broken, and not MNG upgrades being garbage

[small timber]

2nd off: it will be one of the most overpowered item in the game

there is a reason that every single dodge item have a hefty 90 seconds coooldown

if you want to use it evasion scarf is literally scal viable, because that is how dodges work

so we cannot give them one that literally scale into end game

[frosty trellis]

Hell, while Aegis line is broken, Void Sash does not need a buff in any regard as I use it a lot and I find it just better than aegis for exos and scal

[cobalt pewter]

also how does Malice relate to literally any of this

(it's not that important, it just irks me personally)

[small timber]

also the problem with dash comparison is literally that ninja gear line is good, but asgard valor line is overpowered

so to balance it out valor/aegis line should be nerfed, not by buffing ninja gear line over the roof

[fathom aspen]

So about the BoC line it will be nerfed too?

[small timber]

BoC line is abit broken yeah, but that one you have to ask testers whether they want to nerf it

since it is abit weird in that they are buffed recently, then immediately become too strong

[frosty trellis]

I mean Amalgamated Brain is literally just a better avenger emblem and it's pre mech

And then The Amalgam is emblem damage + dodge which is fucking dumb

[small timber]

(destroyer can be abit volatile, since it kinda just sit under the platform (as I accidently used my exo arena) and cant catch up, so I dealt a lot of stacking damage)

yeah

[fathom aspen]

Brought that suggestion up mainly bc I mostly take BoC+shield line rn and hardly pick MNG line
Didn't think that much

[small timber]

also I think scanner should be fine? I dont know what people use on standard summoner setup

[cobalt pewter]

calamity in a nutshell

[frosty trellis]

Too offensive
4 movement/defensive accessories and 2 offensive for hardmode testing

[small timber]

the tldr is if you are using ninja gear line just pick a different damage accessory over amalgam, since main advantage of amalgam is damage + dodge; while main advantage of ninja gear is dash + dodge

isnt it 3/3 for hardmode?

[frosty trellis]

I mean I use void sash and I just pick up DSR or RTN usually if I am using void sash for post yharon

Nope

[small timber]

but ya, since it is post 3 mech they should be fine
both mechs are post 3 mechs

[small timber]

my build tend to throw a bunch of stat stick, ya I definitely didnt know that

I always thought it is 50/50 of your accessory

[frosty trellis]

I thought it was too for hm originally before I was told that

So yeah

All I have is plant left then can send the scanner pdfs

[eternal escarp]

i usually have 2 offensive 2 defensive, dash and boots for hm

its somewhat leniant aslong as its not glass cannon

or full tank

[small timber]

since you are doing it and Blast is also here I will just stop here

[eternal escarp]

i am Not here

i am a Figment of your Imagination

[frosty trellis]

I just normally in my pts go Wings/Dash/Ankh/Boots + 2 offensive for Melee/Ranger/Mage, then drop the ankh for an offensive for rogue/summoner since they are more heavily reliant on accessories pre plant, then it's Wings/Dash/Boots + 3 for all classes since dash is now valor

@small timber

[small timber]

ok plant is 4:13; 1229, 3805 for me
out of curiosity I still faught it

[frosty trellis]

Summoner emblem helps a lot there

[small timber]

considering I didnt use whips ya this weapon is more than viable

oh you mean plantera

yeah summoner damage is super huge scaling with 8 minion slot

[frosty trellis]

For reference just incase you forgot:
AS is 2 minutes
Twins/Brimmy/Dest/Plant 3 minutes
Calclone is 4 minutes

For it's stage as a post 1st mech weapon it's fine for 2nd mech and post 2nd mech bosses
Post 3rd mech it falls off but that should be expected and normal

So Scanner is fine

[small timber]

strangely enough calclone is 4:31; 1379, 4668 for me (already done everything so my as well)

but ya, definitely viable since for plant and calclone you are supposed to use post-all mech weapons

oh I completely forgot food buff and bat wing, so I am lossing a lot of damage

[grave zinc]

@median geyser - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Remove the squirrel staff from the starter bag and replace it with a different weapon]

It has been reviewed by the devs, and for one reason or another they decided it would be best not to implement it.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@tame mountain - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Make Exo Mech Bossfight more Multiplayer friendly]

It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@whole kelp - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Make it so you can write on the Laboratory Screens]

It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[cobalt pewter]

it is time

[grave zinc]

@glass night - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[A Monolith for Cryogen's Aurora Background]

It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[short walrus]

lab time

[lost valley]

epic cryogen monolith

[grave zinc]

@cobalt pewter - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Adjust Slime Gun's tooltip to account for the reworked debuff system in Calamity.]

It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@frosty trellis - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Rework/Remove Gravitar Sabatoon]

It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

@frosty trellis - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Rework/Remove Gravitar Sabatoon]

It has been add to the devs' to-do list and planned for implementation!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[cobalt pewter]

WHAT

jskekdkdkkfdkdkdkfkfk

wait which kinda todo is this

is it rework or remove

(it's probably rework)

[lost valley]

based remove

[frosty trellis]

I'll take either

That was super fast too

[median geyser]

we are stuck with the squirrel staff

I will now start every summoner run by not playing summoner :(

[frosty trellis]

I mean if you know how to keep your distance from stuff you can make the squirrel staff kill the wulfrum enemies that drop the core and get a controller early on with little issue

[cobalt pewter]

literally skill issue tbh

you can immediately go get slime staff just by existing and go to the slightly harder biomes for flinx staff and belladonna

(I think Slime Staff is easily craftable in cal no?)

plus wulfrum stuff are fairly accessible too

I'll fucking play phm summoner in cal, non journey, just to prove my point

[lost valley]

6 wood, 40 gel at an anvil lul

[cobalt pewter]

that is very accessible

[frosty trellis]

No...?

Not on the wiki anyways

So probably a mod mega has

[cobalt pewter]

hmm?

lemme check

[lost valley]

???????????

[frosty trellis]

Oh

I

Am very stupid

Yeah you can get slime staff so easy

[cobalt pewter]

yep

Slime Staff, wulfrum stuff, then advance a bit to Flinx Staff and belladonna

[distant gyro]

finch is also craftable

[cobalt pewter]

oh yea

berb

[frosty trellis]

Can skip flinx bc belladona is fucking broken

[cobalt pewter]

so true.....

it just sounds a bit entitled when everyone else gets relatively similar things

hell, rogue gets the dang bricks

[small timber]

make belladona have like 3 base damage and 100 armor pen

that way it can never scale off armor pen

[cobalt pewter]

at that point just make it deal 1 damage but ignore defense entirely

now it doesn't need to rely on AP since it can't

[lost valley]

based

[frosty trellis]

Cracks knuckles time to belladona spirit staff Yharon bc he has 90 defense

[small timber]

"belladona staff projectile now no longer deal damage, instead it apply a 1 damage stacking debuff for 1 second on the neemy"

[cobalt pewter]

GOD

[hollow shell]

@lost valley Two things

1. You say that they're mostly defense buffs, and yes while there are a lot of boosts to defense in there, half of em give a boost to damage too, and two more of the non-damage (+ non-defense) ones boost movespeed
   (You can argue that the defense boosts are indeed useless but I personally wouldn't say it detracts from Laudanum overall, because it would be inaccurate to say that they are majorly only defense boosts)

2. "That'd make this accessory far more applicable for the majority of bosses instead of a random handful."
   Very un-based boss-only mindset. Every single one of these debuffs can be inflicted by common enemies. Some more common than others but still bad to consider an accessory's usefulness only in the boss context.

I don't disagree with the suggestion overall but I felt the need to say these things

[frosty trellis]

I mean making it based off a class of debuffs rather than specific ones helps out with more common mobs, no?

[small timber]

I do feel it need to amplify the countered debuff duration on yourself, since many of them are applied for extremely low duration

[frosty trellis]

So I don't exactly see that side of the argument

[frosty trellis]

True

[cobalt pewter]

what bothers me more with Laudanum is that it's still rev+ when its design doesn't warrant that limit

[hollow shell]

I'm not arguing that their idea is bad for common enemies, I'm arguing that they're only acknowledging bosses as part of their reasoning, completely ignoring most game context

[frosty trellis]

Fair

[lost valley]

the ones that do boost damage are only afflicted by like, 1 thing thats usually a random dude (eg Obstructed,Confused/Blackout)
and for 2, yeah it is mainly about bosses in my mind, because usually you're not really having troubles with rando dudes, while it is nice to not be afflicted with darkness by the dungeon dudes, it's def not worth using bc of it

[cobalt pewter]

yes, Stress Pills and Heart of Darkness are rev+, but that's because they directly interact with rev+ mechanics

but Laudanum is just an assortment of debuff cancellations

[frosty trellis]

I die way more to mobs than bosses so idkwtf you're on

[lost valley]

really?

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

I am actually fairly good at every boss in this game minus scal, she can go burn just random enemies can be a pain

And have been

[lost valley]

i can understand like, events n shit but outside of that?

[small timber]

post Plant dungeon and pillars are absurd yeah

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

Pillars suck

[cobalt pewter]

pillars are notoriously

yes

[lost valley]

ah true true

[frosty trellis]

And just early game in general since I've played a fair bit of master since I like the extra accessory slot pre ml

[cobalt pewter]

you either are a gamer god or use godmode if you never died in pillars on-tier in rev+

[small timber]

and another main thing is just some of the debuffs are immunized by ankh shield/asgard's valor, the other one of the best accessory in the game

[lost valley]

nah i get eaten alive like everyone else does

[cobalt pewter]

(not to shame godmode users in pillars in the slightest, I do too sometimes because they're that annoying)

[frosty trellis]

Counterpoint: I used Terra Edge lifesteal on true melee strike in my original pt and didn't die even spamming zergs bc I was careful

[small timber]

so to use laudanum you cant use asgard's valor, which of course make you not use laudanum

[lost valley]

^

my main gripe is how specific all the debuffs are, Like what applies ichor? it is just perfs

[frosty trellis]

Prefs

Prefs, the annoying crimson enemy

[hollow shell]

Those examples of the hyper-specific usecases also apply to the defensive boosts you cite.
If you look at Laudanum's conversions, the only ones that boost only defense are the debuffs that originally only AFFECT defense, essentially inverting them
The inverted Confused, Darkness, and Weak all boost both defense and damage

[cobalt pewter]

Ichor Stickers

[frosty trellis]

Yeah those sobs

[lost valley]

true they do but what even inflicts any of those other debuffs? confused is just anhita's music notes, i have no clue for darkness and weak is like

skeles hands

[hollow shell]

Mega please stop thinking about only bosses

[cobalt pewter]

you're still on the boss mindset

[lost valley]

what even inflicts weak?

[cobalt pewter]

cal has been trying to avoid glorifying bosses for a long while now

[hollow shell]

Giant Bats are a really common underground enemy

And

[cobalt pewter]

Feral Bite is funny

[hollow shell]

(also Cosmic Elementals inflict confused)

[lost valley]

i think i've seen like 5< of those in my time playing (cosmics)

[small timber]

ok I think ankh shield might be the main problem

asgards valor is too good, and when you use it, the debuff you can use laudanum on become too specific

[hollow shell]

Yes Laudanum is essentially an alternative to Ankh Charm and its upgrades

The problem is that Laud loses out on a lot of those other benefits those accs provide
However it does have its own boosts, inverting debuffs instead of preventing them

inb4 laud upgrade with a dash

[small timber]

I am still up for the idea of removing ankh shield/debuff + kb immunity completely from asgard's valor/aegis

[lost valley]

even without it, it's not that much, good amount of dungeon mobs, underground mobs inflict the stuff but it just feels not that useful

[hollow shell]

Yeah frankly I kinda hate the fact that Ankh Shield, a really defense-focused accessory, Calamity's upgrades to it are essential movement accessories

It would improve build variety too if Asgard was its own thing with no (or much less) debuff prevention
So you can equip both at once if you care about those debuffs

Asgard+ should probably still have KB immunity though, especially if they are to remain shields and cuz that still fits the theme of being movement-focused

[lost valley]

could just have it be an upgrade from the obsid shield

[hollow shell]

Alright if you're still convinced of that point
then you should at least rephrase some parts of your suggestion to acknowledge that the debuffs do exist in the enemy context

[cobalt pewter]

laud upgrade but you dash upwards

[lost valley]

ah will do

[hollow shell]

Thank you

[small timber]

hero shield + ankh shield, maybe even ursa sergeant since it was mentioned recently can make a new shield line
basically this line of shield just beef up your stats by giving defense, hp and large variety of debuff immunity; basically side grade/more direct defensive option of rampart

where rampart give you advantage in general utility mostly (shorter potion CD + iframe), this one is just stats (maybe move elysian guard to this even, since I never felt that effect fits asgardian aegis/elysian aegis)

[cobalt pewter]

I've been saying Ankh Shield should be its own line

[hollow shell]

I am a little sus of the Paladin Shield effects existing in two lines
but, maybe, maybe.

[cobalt pewter]

since the upgrades are very dissonant from Ankh

[small timber]

now also have the additional situation where hero shield have no upgrade while frozen shield have, so it do fit I think?

[cobalt pewter]

and Rampart is broken enough as is

[hollow shell]

Rampart serves as the ultimate upgrade to the Mimic accessories
[new shield] serves as the ultimate upgrade to the Ankh constituents
But both are themed as shields

[cobalt pewter]

the issue is I don't remember if Flesh Knuckles is obtainable in corruption worlds in cal

[small timber]

yeah

[hollow shell]

They are.

Calamity-added Graveyard recipe

[cobalt pewter]

ahh

[small timber]

same will be said about stalker quiver and recon scope, but yeah it is convertible

[cobalt pewter]

car

[hollow shell]

I guess the overarching theme for them would be
New Ankh line is all about prevention, Rampart is all about recovery
Former makes it so you cannot get inflicted with debuffs, latter makes it so you can heal faster (potions and regen) and has retaliatory on-hit effects and iframes
(and Asgard is all about movement as mentioned earlier)

Perhaps new Ankh line would have the most defense and DR of all shields to fit into that, with Rampart's and Asgard's being nerfed a bit

And to tie it back to Laudanum
This separation would make it so Laud can actually be equipped on its own as an alternative to Ankh+ line, because the main thing you're losing out on is debuff prevention, which Laud covers

[small timber]

I feel those two should never have as much defense as they currently has yeah

iframe is one of the best defense in the game, it is justified to not have that much defense
with ankh shield removal, asgard's valor (to that extent aegis) is basically ornate shield upgrade, which also have no emphasis on defense

[small timber]

👍 yeah I agree on that (+ asgard's valor had been overpowered for a long time)

[hollow shell]

Elysian Aegis could stay within the Asgard line, cuz it does affect "movement" by slowing you down a lot, but it does feel kinda weird being on the line that's focused on improving movement
It should probably interact more with the dash effect.. somehow

[small timber]

sry I mean elysian guard (the ability), but in this case probably renamed/rethemed

[hollow shell]

Would need to think more about that. First thing that comes to mind is that Elysian Guard disables your Asgard dash but grants you a parry, or a very temporary super-armor

[small timber]

yeah, currently elysian guard just do not really fit on aegis, it is a buff that slows mobility for defense/damage on a mobility/dash-based shield

[lost valley]

honestly i just want laud to be better, it's a cool idea for an acc but it just seems underwhelming as it is atm, that might just be bc ankh tho

[small timber]

this though sounds much more fitting

[hollow shell]

Yeah sorry we're getting mostly off-track with this

[lost valley]

yeah no worries, it's all basically related

[hollow shell]

I do think that more separation in the shield line would give Laud more usefulness as I mentioned earlier
Being able to replace the debuffs aspect only and not get rid of your dash too

Laud could get moved into Normal Mode too
Still can be used in Occult Skull Crown alongside the other two Rev accs cuz why not. Recipe's not as cohesive that way, but the current cohesion is a bit forced now that Laud has nothing tying it to Rev mechanics

[lost valley]

yeah i have no clue why it's a rev exclusive item, i assume it used to do something else?

[distant gyro]

Laudanum could get (yet) another rework to be in line with the other Revengeance accessories

[hollow shell]

Yes Laud used to provide immunity to a Revengeance-exclusive debuff called "Horror"

[hollow shell]

I do really like its current concept so that would be a shame

If Laud gets reworked to do something Rev-specific and no longer do debuff conversions,
then a new accessory should get added that does do those debuff conversions

Or vice versa, new acc for Occult, Laud becomes separated

[small timber]

what if laud effect is the ultimate end of line effect for the 'new shield' line, since 1.4.4 double buff slot

but yeah it is abit far fetch

[hollow shell]

Having the choice between prevention and conversion is cool, but that's not a bad idea either

(1.4.4 double buff slots doesn't really matter cuz Laud just changes the effects of the debuffs anyway, keeping them in the same slot and same ID, just changing what they do)

Actually nvm I think I see what you're getting at
Cuz you would be inflicted with a lot more debuffs overall, as opposed to Ankh removing them from the bar entirely

[small timber]

I think laud keep it as debuff, but make them not affect you

it is abit weird

[hollow shell]

Yeah

[lost valley]

yeah its sick

[small timber]

main thing is in 1.4.4 (outside of boss), eg in underground if you dont have double buff slot and debuff immunity, you can be inflicted with a bunch of random debuff

pre 1.4.4 this will delete many of your potions, but post 1.4.4 it is guaranteed to be beneficial

the only thing is maybe the movement speed ones need to be nerfed down, since their impact changes drastically, if you have slow + chilled you suddenly have like 350% movement speed (while only inflicted by slow you only get like 20%)

[hollow shell]

Yeah and that can still be kinda harmful due to being disorienting

[distant gyro]

every effect from Laudanum needs to be toned down on paper

[lost valley]

i mean i think the 15def from armour crunch will be fine

[distant gyro]

no other item grants a buff to the extent that the converted debuffs do

[hollow shell]

(change Darkness to grant you Hunter effect
change Blackout to give you Omniscience)

[distant gyro]

other than the plain defense ones

on the other hand, the accessory wholly requires you to be hit from very specific attacks

[small timber]

I think they can still give stats just toned down yeah

[distant gyro]

or get RNG rolled by Feral Bite

[hollow shell]

byeah, but that is kinda fine due to the fact that you need to get hit by something in order to get the debuffs in the first place, and the fact that they're so temporary
Much less reliable than other items

Yeah

[distant gyro]

when an item is to this extent of uncertain, it's easily viewed to the side

much like the Blood Pact

[lost valley]

Oh actually one thing i didnt mention, specially about chilled, if you are having issue with things that apply it, you have the warmth potion
which provides immunity and reduces ice damage

[small timber]

blood pact had been bad eversince max hp no longer scales multiplicatively I feel

[hollow shell]

I would rather equip Laud than craft and drink a Warmth Potion every time

[small timber]

instead of providing 900 max hp blood pact give like 600 max

[lost valley]

i'd normally use use a warmth, bc usually ur not dealing with chilled all that often, ice mobs? ice giants? frost queen? and cryogen
mostly just bc accs slots are far more valuable than buff slots

[distant gyro]

Blood Pact and Laudanum are very different but the common link they share is how the player cannot reap the benefits with 100% certainty, which makes them rather unpopular despite the seemingly powerful returns

[hollow shell]

I was wondering what the heck you were talking about but yes now I see
There's basically an internal "percent health increase" stat now, which multiple things can add to, with their sum being the final effect, as opposed to them all multiplying on each other
much like DR

[distant gyro]

and Laudanum especially is not very new player friendly

sure, here's a list of debuffs it counteracts, but who inflicts these

when do the effects ever become apparently useful

the whole accessory appeals more to minmaxers than it does any other audience

[hollow shell]

How would you feel if Blood Pact got changed from "25% chance on hit" to "every 4th hit"
So you knew exactly when Bloody Boost was going to trigger upon your next hit, and you could even glow or something when it's "primed"

Would the increased reliability make it too powerful or would that be a welcome change?

[lost valley]

i was thinking if you could do some feral bite nonsense and get hella stats

[small timber]

what if 25% to drop your defense and DR to 0, and the defense loss from this effect take longer to recover

and if you have big "proc" sound to indicate

that way it is the next hit that will kill you, instead of dying instantly when crit happen

[hollow shell]

That's Bloodflare Core

[small timber]

sry I mean switching blood pact effect to be similar to this

[distant gyro]

Traditionally, Expert BoC (or meme answer, Red Potion)

[small timber]

instead of receiving a gigantic crit (that most likely will kill you)

[distant gyro]

Feral Bite is way too RNG to bother with, and by a wide margin

[lost valley]

Ah makes more sense, i forget that BOC gives you an absolute smorgasbord of debuffs

[distant gyro]

Expert BoC with Laud is an absolute clusterfuck

[hollow shell]

What if Blood Pact could be activated, you choose when your next hit will be a crit
You're intentionally sacrificing yourself when you know it to be safe to reap the rewards, damaging your health lead

This is a terrible idea I should stop formulating.

[small timber]

it will be very weird yeah

[lost valley]

then you'd just never activate it no? free double HP

[hollow shell]

Yeah the whole dynamic of the acc would change and it'd need all its stats reworked

Maybe an idea for another time

[inner anvil]

Ozz already has other plans.

[distant gyro]

also an additional shoutout to the Expert Mode debuff scaling config

[hollow shell]

Ozz and I had lots of plans. Plenty of them are written down, too
But that doesn't mean any of em are gonna get added, nor is there an obligation for them to be.

[distant gyro]

it's odd that an accessory gains huge potential benefits from forcing that config on

[hollow shell]

That is a pretty screwy config option

One of the only ones that is a direct balance toggle

[distant gyro]

turn on the config, find an Ice Golem, get hit by the beam, gain 1.3x movement speed for 2 minutes

[lost valley]

okay this part of laud is very funny, pretty sure there are 2 (two) things that inflict this so just going ape shit it very funny

[small timber]

ice golem turnt from unreliable to a very long debuff from it yeah, and pixie/corruptor

[distant gyro]

definitely a balancing force of evil

[lost valley]

wait how long do they apply it for? (ice golems) damn 90 seconds with laud

[distant gyro]

once again, a casual player is gonna figure... none of this out

[small timber]

ok this one

(for clarification, yes it still work in the exact same way, just I no longer have a malice calclone to use as reference of my speed)

you can technically do it with corruptor + pixie + ice golem (basically weak + slow + chilled)

[distant gyro]

112 seconds in Master

[small timber]

for reference celestial tracer at 200% movement speed is slower than that
(since celestial tracer at 230% MS is 93mph, wings in video is 90mph, just from laudanum alone)

[lost valley]

best part of the video is when you mouse over the wings to reveal them as the fledgling

[hollow shell]

What was your movement speed prior to Laud-Chilled, if it's presumably only multiplying that speed by 1.3x ?

[small timber]

wait let me see

[distant gyro]

base

[hollow shell]

Oh nvm you have Slow too I see

I thought this was just Chilled

[distant gyro]

honestly looks like +140% at the minimum

[small timber]

it should be around 150% yeah (I am certain I didnt use quick)

abit on high end, but I think the bugged formula of slow + chilled is the main cause on the speed

let me just try it on a more reasonable build right now

[distant gyro]

theoretically it ends up with +368% or so

an accessory granting 200%+ movement speed

[hollow shell]

awesome

[small timber]

yeah it seems to scale off with how many MS you have

[cobalt pewter]

perhaps the hotkey is no longer a toggle but instead the "parry" button?

I've always found Elysian Guard off because its movement speed penalty doesn't feel like much for the potential stats it brings out

if it becomes more of an active parry it could be more interesting

(backtracking chats is never not a painful procedure)

[hollow shell]

yeah maybe

With that I was thinkin of having Asgardian Aegis let you like, swap between dashing combat-shield and tanky dodge/parry-in-place shield
But

honestly that latter role should probably get taken up by one of the two other endgame shields that're more focused on defense anyhow

Rampart and new Ankh descendant

Dunno if that means making Elysian into a tanky non-dash shield and moving it to one of those lines
Or, something else

I'll mull it over in the morning, I gotta go to bed

[cobalt pewter]

yeah sure, night

[small timber]

imo:
rework elysian aegis' elysian guard to the "parry"
move the (current) elysian guard to the new ankh shield line (rethemed and renamed)

since it feels more natural

[cobalt pewter]

now that rover is asleep

rover stinky I think Ankh can just get a brand new set of upgrades, while carrying the former Elysian Guard idea with a more balanced trade-off

[small timber]

that was basically the idea yeah, move ankh shield from valor/aegis, and make it a new line, and make this line the dedicated "defense shield"

so you have:
valor/aegis = mobility/dash
rampart = utility (iframe, lower potion cd, DR when low hp etc)
'ankh shield line' = pure defense, max hp, debuff immunity etc etc

[cobalt pewter]

yeah sounds gamer

[fluid pivot]

misread chat sorry

[lucid flare]

but then what would make people use aegis over statis' belt/sash

[small timber]

contact damage avoidance

people dont really care about the debuff immunity

[lucid flare]

oh what

lol statis belt line doesn't even have contact damage avoidance

[lost valley]

debuff immunity is just extra stuff, main thing is the dashing thru shit

[lucid flare]

didn't know that

[small timber]

if knockback immune is removed THEN it will be an actual contest

[lost valley]

nah the belts aint that good, only better on like, exactly exos and scal

[small timber]

because suddenly you also have to use a knockback immune on asgard's valor (which is why there should be at least 2 line of upgrades providing it, because this is currently one of the biggest weakness of ninja gear in that they either have to use frozen shield or valor, and they are not using valor)

[lost valley]

bc it's hard to take contact from em

[lucid flare]

suggestion: add shield of cthulhu to statis ninja belt, now it can bonk

[small timber]

it will make the item worse

shield of cthulhu is... no that good

the effect is super clunky to use and often bounce you back into attacks

[lucid flare]

true...

[swift wharf]

ankh charn should get a super cool effect that is lost when you make the shield because it would be funny

[lucid flare]

honestly at this point my idea might as well be to give the ram to statis belt & make valor line the defense thing you mentioned

[swift wharf]

yes allow me to ram into enemies with
uhh
nothing

[lucid flare]

ninja powers

[lost valley]

dodge roll thru em

[swift wharf]

red cloud! !

[lucid flare]

flash step

[small timber]

then it will basically just delete an entire dash line and master ninja gear become the only thing that can dash besides counter scarf, evasion scarf and shield of cthulhu

so there is no longer a choice, to get dash you have to use master ninja gear line

[lost valley]

based

asgards is far too good

also gives my boi laud some room to exist

[small timber]

I think if asgard's valor's both debuff and knockback immune get removed then both will immediately become equal

because asgard will no longer be a 2 in 1 accessory for no reason (as knockback immune is so essential in this game)

tldr asgard's valor just become an upgraded ornate shield

it will keep all of its current function and act the exact same way (knockback immune dont affect how the dash itself perform)

[fathom aspen]

The ram dash has way too many more advantages than dash+dodge line tbh

[ashen warren]

id take a ram over a dodge any day of the week

[lost valley]

yeah, basically for every boss minus the last two

[ashen warren]

rams are simply better than a once every 1.5 minute dodge

[lost valley]

dash and a dodge tho

just not a ram

[ashen warren]

the dash doesnt have much use if you cant touch the boss with it most of the time

thats one of the best ways to avoid things that charge/dash etc at you

[lost valley]

yeah, hence why it's good for scal and exos

bc they aint contacting you

[ashen warren]

minus thanos ye

actually i dont think he does either anymore with the slowdown

[lost valley]

i mean you'd have to really go out of your way but you could do it

[small timber]

ram on thanatos is useful for t hanos beam as otherwise you have to rod out of it to not get damaged

or you have to be extremely precise with how you dodge t hanos beam

[ashen warren]

not if you dont coil him up

ye

[small timber]

(and sometimes you can also ram twins in an emergency but ya)

[ashen warren]

i use a ram for exos for that reason

[small timber]

generally for last 2 void sash is better, just personally I dont like playing with a dodge

[ashen warren]

and i dont use any dashes for scal so i just never use the ninja belt line

unless im using a ram and want the dodge

[small timber]

yeah, scal you just use amalgam now

[ashen warren]

i mean it doesnt help dodges case that they are only useful if you mess up, while a ram is something you choose to do

[lost valley]

true, amalg goated

[ashen warren]

since when did the amalgam have a dodge what

[lost valley]

got added, now the amalg and it's downgrades are staples
emblems worth of damage and a 90 sec dodge

[fathom aspen]

since the boc does

[small timber]

so the conclusion is ram by itself is already good enough to rival a dash + dodge from void sash?

then just remove knockback immunity (that is provided by ankh shield) for valor/aegis line

[fathom aspen]

Isn't it

[lost valley]

yes, bc aegis is crazy

[small timber]

so at the very least ram is no longer a 2 in 1 of both a ram and a kb immune, which both are basically essential

you have to invest in a dash and a kb immune item taking 2 accessory, just like ninja gear line
no special treatment

the ram itself do not require kb immune to function, it is easy to just see it on ornate shield

the kb immune only works (and matters) when you are hit when non-ramming

[ashen warren]

thing is that isnt gonna stop the ram being better still

[small timber]

ram will still be better, but at least it will no longer be a gigantic cliff in difference

[fathom aspen]

a cooldown of 90sec is too long for any strategies im afraid
It hardly saves you

[ashen warren]

why not just

buff the non ram dashes

make them have a reason to be picked

[fathom aspen]

while a ram will let you counter any means of contact dmg

[ashen warren]

for example

make the cooldown length depend on the % of your max hp of damage you dodged

so you dont have to wait a minute for dodging 10 hp worth of damage

[small timber]

ninja gear dash already have a much longer range, and to certain degree the purpose is that ram = you dodge into the enemy, ninja gear = you dodge away from attack; and both are better at doing their respective job

oh you mean dodge

[ashen warren]

hm

[small timber]

#suggestions-voting message (I have this in voting)

[fathom aspen]

Range doesn't matter that much tbh

[ashen warren]

see i just dont see dashing away using a dodge dash being better than just ramming

ramming gives you iframes so its 100% safe

[fathom aspen]

Players use dash mostly for turning rather than outrunning

[ashen warren]

youll avoid any projectiles it fires in your face

and ye the distance isnt a big factor when comparing the usefulness

[small timber]

it is not, and it probably will never be
ram's basis is that it only works for contact damage, ninja gear basis is that it works against everything (since well, you didnt get hit), and the once in a while hit you take get prevented by dodges

and I will not want to nerf the ram effect specifically as it will ruin the purpose of the item, or to buff ninja gear dash as I think it already achieved its purpose

the main thing right now is that asgard's valor for some reason provide a lot of things beside just the ram, while ninja gear have none

[ashen warren]

i think just improving the dodges would be better

[small timber]

even the jump speed and MS speed boost is moved to post-ML, and on post-sentinel you get a petty damage scythe on dash and thats it

[ashen warren]

taking KB immunity off of ram accs would just be annoying

[lost valley]

SoC doesnt have it right?

[small timber]

it will just put it equal to ninja gear

[ashen warren]

soc doesnt no, but it's its own type of dash

[small timber]

why does asgard's valor have kb immune for no reason when ninja gear dont have it?

[lost valley]

it'd just work like that but no bash

[small timber]

the ram will still works, it can be seen from ornate shield

[ashen warren]

because its a big ass shield

[lost valley]

^^

[small timber]

turns out half the valor shield doesn't even have kb immune

huntress buckler, squire shield etc also dont have it

[fathom aspen]

I'm afraid ninja dodges won't come any closer to ram dash without a buff to ninja line itself

[small timber]

ornate shield also have no kb immune

[ashen warren]

it takes the ankh shield in its recipe

thats why it has it

it also carries the immunities

[lost valley]

just nerf the anhks immunites

[small timber]

which is why the conversation above (before this one) was about removing ankh shield from valor and make ankh shield its own line

[lost valley]

or that (better option)

[ashen warren]

i dont see the point of that

knockback is just annoying

[lost valley]

did you ever play TF2?

[small timber]

basically make valor become an ornate shield upgrade

[fathom aspen]

They are all shields, after all

[lost valley]

bc i have a perfect example

[ashen warren]

i have yes

[lost valley]

Escape plan got cut in half

[small timber]

turns out it is the same case for ninja gear: no knockback immune is annoying therefore you need to spend an extra accessory for it

[ashen warren]

valor line doesnt need nerfing, the ninja gear just needs more of a reason to pick it

[lost valley]

to the equalizer and the escape plan

[small timber]

while asgard valor get it for free for some reason which contribute to why it is so broken

[lost valley]

bc it was just too good they split them into 2 items

[ashen warren]

it isnt exactly broken

its competition just isnt that good

[cobalt pewter]

I'm on the camp of making knockback immunity a consumable upgrade

[lost valley]

it's in like, every single build ever

[ashen warren]

because the alternative is worse

[lost valley]

it's a straight staple for everything

[ashen warren]

but that doesnt inherently mean it is too strong

the dodges are pretty meh, and they are the reason you would pick the gear

[cobalt pewter]

probably somewhere on post plant so knockback immunity items before then would still have a purpose (like Cobalt - Ankh Shield and Titan Heart armor)

[lost valley]

well your options are too boost the ever-loving shit out the others, or take it down a bit, prob easier to do the latter

[ashen warren]

no matter what you do ramming will be better for most people

[small timber]

that is like saying that rampart is not broken when all of its alternative is just worse compare to it

if you use the best item to compare to all of its alternative of course all of them become bad in comparison

[lost valley]

^

[small timber]

I dont even think ninja gear is bad, in vanilla it is basically your only dash option and it function completely fine

[ashen warren]

removing the knockback immunity from valour doesnt stop you using it, it just forces you to use another knockback accessory at worse or nothing at best

[lost valley]

the ninja gear is a solid acc, it just doesnt gold up

[cobalt pewter]

now the player immediately dies while ramming if they got hit by a projectile /j

[small timber]

it is just ram is so overtuned that people completely forgot about the fact that ninja gear dash is actually good

[ashen warren]

it doesnt change the fact you wont be using the ninja gear

[fathom aspen]

Bc it was in vanilla

[small timber]

which is why it is a start

because the alternative is to tuned down ram, which will in some capability or another ruin the item

[ashen warren]

it doesnt achieve anything

[fathom aspen]

and in vanilla ninja dodge is 10% proc instead of 90second cooldown

[ashen warren]

buffing dodges gives you more of a reason to use the ninja gear line which is way better than removing the knockback from valor

[small timber]

if you use an overtuned item as the standard for whether an item should be buffed or nerfed it will eventually just cause a bunch of power crept

[ashen warren]

that isnt my point

[small timber]

ninja gear dashes currently do do their job, while ram still is preferred exactly because it is broken

[ashen warren]

removing knockback immunity from valor doesnt give you any more reason to use the ninja gear line

[lost valley]

yeah it need more nerfs ofc

[ashen warren]

you cannot make the dashes more comparable without nerfing rams which is not something that i think should happen

[small timber]

this is the 2 main reason to use asgard's valor:

• ram
• knockback immunity (2 in 1)

this is the 2 main reason to use master ninja gear

• dash
• dodge
  [ however ram is so good is comparison that basically dash + dodge = ram

therefore you remove kb immune so that they become comparable, you can just use another kb immune item in another slot

[lost valley]

asgards also have the debuff immunities ig

[ashen warren]

i dont really understand why theres two lines of dashes anyway

when one is just better than the other

[small timber]

it is an added bonus yea, though I think most people dont really care too much about that

[lost valley]

just make em all the same dash ez

either both are rams or both are dashes

[ashen warren]

or just make the ninja gear more about mobility/dodging/actual dodges

so you dont use one or the other you could use both

[lost valley]

what does actual dodges mean

[ashen warren]

the dodge an attack every 90 seconds thing

dodging in that meant avoiding attacks entirely

[lost valley]

ah

[cobalt pewter]

✨ variety ✨

[small timber]

that can also works

but yeah it will kill variety

[ashen warren]

there isnt much variety when one is better

[lost valley]

eh it does but it's barely variety

[ashen warren]

and making it so both dashes are as good makes picking which to use pretty pointless

[lost valley]

one is just way better

[fathom aspen]

removing KBresist won't really do the job
players will just grab another KBresist item and use Valor again, bc dodge effect rn can't stand against ram

[cobalt pewter]

also is kb resist not the biggest point on why Aegis line is broken

[small timber]

that is the point, so that at least you have to use 2 slot just like ninja gear + a kb immune item

[lost valley]

rampart gaming

[cobalt pewter]

I mean it's a factor but not the biggest

[ashen warren]

which is why i think the stasis ninja belt+ should move away from being a dash item and go more into tthe mobility/ dodging

because ye

its notgoing to be a better pick than the ram shields

[cobalt pewter]

it's all the random shit associated with it

like unneeded extra HP

[lost valley]

that part is like the debuff immunity

[cobalt pewter]

the extra HP is usually more beneficial in most cases than the debuff immunities, if we're talking bosses

though I think the biggest concern in this convo is bosses anyways because there aren't much cases where you need to ram through small fries?

[ashen warren]

even against enemys what would you rather do

[fathom aspen]

Valor line would need a bit tuned down, like, lower down those +HP or +defense a bit
But ninja line desperately needs a improve to dodge otherwise it won't even come close to valor line

[ashen warren]

ram through them, doing damage and hitting them more or dash away

[lost valley]

i think the gear should just get the ram and call it a day

[ashen warren]

ye but why bother keeping ninja gear as a dash line when theres already one

like

it doesnt need to be a dash acc

its just gonna hold it back as its constantly gonna be compared against the ram line

which it is gonna struggle to be as good as

[lost valley]

at that point it's just variety for the sake of it, itd be a dodge vs knockback immunity and debuff stuff

[ashen warren]

why is it vs

youre missing the point

[lost valley]

then gear has mobility stats

[ashen warren]

if gear isnt a dash you can use them both

it stops being something you use if you dont use the other acc

[lost valley]

then what should gear get?

[ashen warren]

,

[lost valley]

bc w/o that it's just a worse brain

[ashen warren]

the dodges could be improved for one, and it could have more things related to mobility

[lost valley]

it'd need to have nuts mobil stats

[ashen warren]

the specifics are not that important

its already a better brain, it gives mobility stats

[lost valley]

bc amalg brain is just stupid good, free damage and dodge as soon as you get into HM

[ashen warren]

amalgam is post dog

[fathom aspen]

idk whatever was the initial purpose of having different types of dash, but since there are, then they had better be equal otherwise just remove/rework one of them

[small timber]

ok this is my opinion:

I think dodges (aka the 90s CD) should just die, personally I don't like effect that passively reward the player, which is why I think dodges should stay the way as it is, I dont care if they are not good, I dont want them to be good

so it leaves master ninja gear with the dash (on whether it should be buffed), the thing is it is actually good at this point, just ram is far superior in many ways. master ninja gear your only option is to run away while ram do both

so it becomes either nerf ram, of nerf other aspect of the ram item (valor/aegis); and among the added benefit besides the random high defense or hp valor/aegis have it is the kb immune. TLDR which is why I want kb immune on valor/aegis removed

and this is basically my rationale on it

[lost valley]

amalgamated brain

[ashen warren]

why does that give you the buff

[lost valley]

it's downgrade is obtainable instantly in HM and is 10%dmg and a dodge

same cooldown

[ashen warren]

i still dont see what removing KB immunity does

[lost valley]

tbh i dont either

[ashen warren]

it doesnt change that you arent picking the belt

at all

[small timber]

to make obtaining a dash + kb immune require 2 accessory slot

[ashen warren]

why does that need to happen though

if anything, kill off the random hp it gives you

[small timber]

because every accessory slot is valuable; if you save 1 you can just go for another offensive/defensive item

and kb immune is currently near essential just to prevent chain hits which is the main thing that kill the player

currently one of ram's biggest advantage is that it is dash + kb in 1 item, while ninja gear dont have that (and spend 2 slot); removing kb immune put them equal in this aspect

it will still not immediately resolve the fact that ram is better than dash from master ninja gear, but at least from build/cost wise they will be equal in slots

[ashen warren]

rams biggest advantage is the fact its a ram

not the kb immunity

[fathom aspen]

^

[small timber]

then why not remove kb immune from it when ram is the only thing you care about?

[ashen warren]

because its removing existing things for the sake of it with no actual gain

[fathom aspen]

Because removing kbresist from a post-plantera HUGE SHIELD does not make sense?

[small timber]

if we are never allowed to nerf items then eventually it will just be infinite power crept

it is extremely obvious that the problem right now is valor/aegis being extremely overpowered rather than master ninja gear which is only just "good"

[ashen warren]

where are you getting never allowed to nerf from

you havent given an actual good reason to remove it

[crude geode]

There’s other ways to Nerf it

[ashen warren]

no ones saying we cant nerf things ever

[small timber]

^

[cobalt pewter]

okay so the thing I can take away from this is that

remove any form of dashes altogether

[ashen warren]

removing knockback from it wouldnt change anything for me, i would just deal with taking knockback

it doesnt stop me using the ram either

it doesnt achieve anything half of the time and just makes you give up an extra acc slot the other

[small timber]

that is the point? it is a nerf in a way that you can just cope with and without leaving you in a place where you can no longer deal with it

eg: if we just nerf ram directly, like putting a 10 seconds cooldown on it, it will completely change the purpose of the item

which is why I thought that is the least harmful way to nerf the item that still have an actual effect

[ashen warren]

at which the question is, why are we nerfing it at all

if its so minor it does nothing what is the point

[fathom aspen]

When a 'nerf' doesn't actually nerf the item

[small timber]

losing kb immune is a big deal, but what I mean "least harmful" is you can fix it just by using another accessory that give kb immune

least harmful as in it do not immediately ruin the purpose of the item as the alternative is to nerf the ram effect itself

[ashen warren]

orr you could change the ninja gear line so theres actually a reason to ever pick it

[small timber]

then I will just settle down and hear your idea: what will you do to buff ninja gear line?

buffing the dodge itself will just cause the item to keep scaling into the end game because that is how dodge work, lower cooldown = least thing you have to do/more mistake you can make for free, and I dont like that; it is the reason % dodges is changed to fix cooldown

buff the dash itself can be good, but it will be awkward, because buff it in dash range then you might lose control and often dash for too long

[ashen warren]

this would make dodges less crap, but ultimately i think having two competing dash accessories is pointless

[small timber]

or give it other stats like damage or movement speed etc?

[fathom aspen]

give Belt 10%dmg and VoidSash 15%dmg like what they did to BoC line

[ashen warren]

make a dodge from them drop a smoke bomb that increases your dr by a bit for a second, make it give you longer iframes afterwards, make it give you a speed boost for x time afterwards

theres a lot you could do to it

[small timber]

if you are worrying about dodges this is in voting without directly just like, making the dodge have 50% reduction in cooldown or something to that effect, so that should at least be resolved (slightly)

[cobalt pewter]

ink bo

[ashen warren]

ink bomb who

[cobalt pewter]

[small timber]

I fear if many of it will be not super noticeable is the main problem

(since they proc on cooldown which makes it a bit conditional)

[ashen warren]

theyre just examples at the end of the day

[golden tulip]

first feedz sugg i actually kinda disagree with

[ashen warren]

the point is, you could turn the ninja line into something worth using and independent from the ram line, so it isnt constantly overshadowed

[cobalt pewter]

smite me daddy uh yeah sure what about it

[ashen warren]

🤨

[golden tulip]

i think knockback isnt that big of a deal that you need a permanent upgrade for it and being knocked back is just like what a lot of enemies do

[cobalt pewter]

m, that is fair

I just think that being thrown around doesn't feel that

good? but I can see it not being that big of a deal

[lost valley]

idk man, asgards do be an auto include for every build so uhh

after PHM nothing has KB

[cobalt pewter]

well there's Titan Heart armor, as I mentioned

but it's rogue

🚎

[golden tulip]

i think an accessory giving kb immunity is fine as then youre using an accessory slot for it and otherwise you have free immunity for the rest of the game even though its like fine for regular enemies to woosh you

[frail mantle]

counterpoint: why

[swift wharf]

I think that knockback should be stronger in some cases

Actually this gives me an idea for a suggestion

Making Atlases and similar enemies slap you across the room

[short walrus]

would be cool if knockback resistance was disabled for some enemies

especially atlas

the funny arm guy can't do his funny thing :(

[swift wharf]

drops the weapon with the strongest knockback
hits like literally every other enemy

[short walrus]

an injustice

we need a list of enemies that get cucked by KB immunity

we must fix this

[cobalt pewter]

wouldn't mind an acc for that

just a general ranged acc that boosts the next use of a ranged weapon after spinning the cursor

[small timber]

if there is like, an entire set of accessories consuming a quarter of stealth to use, doesn't this make them the example of such accessories to each other?

[cobalt pewter]

...what?

[small timber]

it is not like there is only 1 accessory that do this

and also doesn't making them consuming full bar just massively nerfs them? since their cost is basically multiplied by 4

[cobalt pewter]

while consuming stealth is a trait they share, yes, my concern is more of the fact that they just use a quarter of stealth bar now that stealth is way faster than it was before

these were made when stealth was 3/9s at base, and now it's 2/4s

and with how they slowly started integrating hybrid rogue gameplay (through Raider's Talisman), I can start to see using stealth in its intended way for these accessories would flow better with the rest of the stuff as a more supportive use of stealth strikes instead of just offensive

[stable musk]

So i was doing multiplayer with my friends some time

My friends were melee and ranged and i was rogue.

Even in pre-hardmode everything was melting whenever bosses didn't target me.

[small timber]

2. should not be there because it will just make it extremely bandaid and bad for the rogue player, because they literally will just deal less damage for seemingly no reason

[cobalt pewter]

I would've said just don't play multiplayer

[drowsy plank]

common multiplayer L

[small timber]

1. do not really work if you have a melee user since melee armor automatically draw aggros, and it is by design

this applies to 3) too because inconsistent aggro just fucks over many player and make bosses super unfun

[cobalt pewter]

but aggro is a pretty tricky thing to handle in mp

yeah melee players will typically draw more aggro

[small timber]

but ya tldr is that for some reason multiplayer hp scaling is extremely scuffed, because on 2 player the boss only have like 1.1/1.2x hp of singleplayer for some reason

[cobalt pewter]

I kinda wish Cal reworks aggro so that bosses briefly prioritizes the other players attacking it while it's focused on someone

from what I understood I don't understand anything about aggro

[stable musk]

What if bosses would target players in a cycle for a certain periods of time

[small timber]

what you will be seeking at that is not just like a bandaid will probaby be like,

"nerf stand still stealth regen rate" or "buff bosses HP multiplier in multiplayer"

[stable musk]

fair point

[small timber]

it will cause other problem, eg: if you have 2 player far apart from each other boss will stop attacking to fly to the other player

[eternal escarp]

that weapon is for Memes, he was pretty much the sole balancer so i wont touch it

[small timber]

so the problem is not with aggro system, but more that stand still rogue just boost your damage like crazy

(and bosses being squishy as fuck in multiplayer)

[cobalt pewter]

the HP seems more appropriate

standing still bonus in sp is nice, it's just dumb in multiplayer because of course it is

just make bosses have 5x HP by default with 2 players

[inner anvil]

What happened now?

[small timber]

that will be terrible, but ya I think at least or around 2x

^

[inner anvil]

I nerfed it like 3 times.

Okay, now for real, I knew that 4x Tesla Arm was powerful, so I took it's 1.1x damage multiplier like a month ago, should be nerfed enough.

I tried it after that, and it was fine.

[grim tusk]

Summoner where it can ignore most weapon nerfs since its accs are fucking stupid

[inner anvil]

I'll deal with that eventually.

[small timber]

oh right I have a question to ask since you are way more acknowledged on this, is the rogue's stealth basically just give the player a bunch of rogue damage or they are some sort of multiplier on the amount of rogue damage you have?

[swift wharf]

this has nothing to do with rogue

nor melee

multiplayer is just fucked up

my gf is summoner, i'm ranged, bosses target her because host

[small timber]

since I can only track it from stat meter by which you can get like 500%+ rogue damage from stealth, while accessories give like 15%, which makes rogue damage accessory kinda only benefit spam and max stealth accessory just incredibly broken

(and also cause lucky/crit chance value to completely outscale menacing)

[swift wharf]

[grim tusk]

A bit of both. They increase the dmg but depending on how the stealth strike works and performs it can get a dmg multiplier

[grim tusk]

For example: Toxicant Twister has a 1.35 mult on the stealth strike

And each stealth point you have increases stealth dmg by about 5%

[small timber]

ok so it is way more complicated than I thought, got it
(was thinking about if people can make some absurd rogue build if they ignore rogue damage and only go for max crit chance early on, but seeing it is like this it will not be nearly as simple)

[drowsy plank]

does this count as a specific item suggestion

i mean it isn't a bad idea but it seems a bit obtuse, esp considering it doesn't help with the large swathe of items you can craft that drop from enemies and such regardless

and also like

[little stag]

you mean, mine?

[drowsy plank]

yeah

[small timber]

this definitely count as specific item suggestion

and ya the first function (item radar) is not calamity related, calamity dont do chest management

[drowsy plank]

and it also just. serves the same purpose as the recipes except the recipes are way easier to understand and more intuitive

[small timber]

there is like another mod that have exactly what you want I think, forgot what name

[little stag]

recipes give you the accessories by hand when you need them

[drowsy plank]

yeah

what's the difference

you still have to explore the areas to get the mats already

[little stag]

but it won't require active effort then

[drowsy plank]

like you aren't just making anklet of the wind out of grass seeds and wood or something, you have to get rare items from the jungle

what are you talking about

it's literally the exact same amount of effort as your idea

it's conceptually interesting but it just overlaps with a pre-existing, much simpler, and already implemented solution

[small timber]

ok from what I see the suggestion kinda counterdicts itself in that if you want player to explore, then item radar should not exist, because at that point they will just pinpoint dig to that location

then there is basically no exploration, it is literally mining sideways or downwards and call it a day

[drowsy plank]

explore area
get materials
don't have item you want
craft item out of materials from area

or

explore area
get materials
don't have item you want
craft RADAR
go back to area and get item

like it's just overcomplicating the process

[small timber]

I will not call the crafting recipes are a great solution either, but if the main purpose is to encourage exploration then I dont think the suggestion' proposed solution exactly work

[little stag]

it would still encourage it if the only way to make the radar work is by other chest items

that way, you'll have to have done a few attempt in finding the item before just crafting it

[drowsy plank]

at that point just add shimmers lmfao

like yeah that's going to be a future sugg thing but if u just wait for the update using other chest items is literally just what vanilla does with shimmering items

[little stag]

thing is that the materials are something you'll already have when you need it, at least in the moment it is right now
e.g. building the thunderstorm boots are something that will probably only be necessary at late pre hardmode, and at that point you will already have clouds, most probably already have killed a pinky and a very but very great chance you'll already have explored the jungle enough to have at least 15 jungle spores for building the anklet of wind

[drowsy plank]

what the fuck are thunderstorm boots

[small timber]

that is the point?

[drowsy plank]

do u mean lightning boots
also how is this any different than your radar idea

[little stag]

yeah
making the obtaining of these items require active effort

yes

[drowsy plank]

this is literally the same amount of effort as your radar idea

[small timber]

the purpose of the crafting recipe is to allow you to obtain the item without unnecessary amount of grinding when you are trying to get it at a later point, or frustrated from rng of not being able to find the item

[drowsy plank]

in fact i think the recipes would be harder to do typically than your radar idea

[small timber]

the problem with the radar idea is that it is not effort too, just additional time waste, because you just dig straight to the area and call it a day

[drowsy plank]

anklet needs pink gel and clouds which is way harder than a getting just a single jungle chest drop

[small timber]

if I want to find a lava charm at like "5000, 4500" then I will just dig to that area; I dont go on an exploration trek of going through the entire jungle and slowly traverse natural pathing towards the cavern and then the chest

[little stag]

then make the cost be another chest item

[drowsy plank]

which makes it easier than the recipes

and also pointless

[small timber]

they can do it, but it will just add like 500 different recipes that effectively serve little to no purpose

[drowsy plank]

because again, the recipes serve the exact same purpose, and the radar would also overlap with shimmer

[little stag]

what is shimmer exactly?

[drowsy plank]

because you're exchanging one chest item for another

[small timber]

chances are you will have chest items, but you will just have a shit ton of random recipe showing the item being convertible to other chest items

[little stag]

oh right

[drowsy plank]

https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Shimmer

[little stag]

oh right that thing exists
in that case uh, yeah there's no point

[drowsy plank]

lol

like presumably a lot of the vanilla item recipes are just going to be shifted to shimmer transmutes when 1.4.4 rolls around

[small timber]

yeah, ideally shimmer will just make them unnecessary

I just realised shimmer is missing gold chest items?

[drowsy plank]

some i can already think of are magic quiver and endless quiver, most biome chest items, band of regen and shackle, celestial magnet and treasure magnet

[little stag]

though if shimmer exists then recipes could be removed

[drowsy plank]

yeah it is

correct

dps meter could be a shimmered dummy, fast clock could be a shimmered timer which would also fix the infinite money exploit, jungle rose and obsidian rose, shoe spikes and climbing claws, chair and step stool, etc.

[small timber]

some will be awkward like chair since shimmer also disenchant (therefore have to use only item with no crafting recipe), but yeah

a lot can be added

[drowsy plank]

im just coming up random ones as rough ideas

i realize some of these would prolly have problems but it's more the spirit of it

[umbral dew]

could the radar use the same code as the rubblemaker so it scrolls through possible chest items?

instead of having to make a new radar every time

[drowsy plank]

i think we've already pretty clearly established this still just doesn't really solve a problem

i think they were already saying something like this, but you'd still need an in cost, and it runs into the problem that shimmer and crafting just do the job its trying to do better

[hot zephyr]

multiplayer renewability....

[hollow shell]

Did Salty give up on their sugg idea or should I go through the effort of reducing its specificity

[cobalt pewter]

just use shimmer at that point tbh

[drowsy plank]

im p sure ian was agreeing since with chest only drops there are only so many times u can get an item, which is what the radar solution would be

[cobalt pewter]

hmmm

[drowsy plank]

meanwhile crafting and shimmer let u get it as many times as it drops

or its components do

[hot zephyr]

I just don't see the point; if the game is going to literally point you in the direction of an item it's not really exploring

It's just Crafting 0.8: "Do some walking, nerd" Edition

[drowsy plank]

p much yeah

[hot zephyr]

If TML gets shimmer support before 1.4.4 stable release I'll try to vouch for some new Calamity shimmer recipes during porting

(like how I bugged YuH and Altix for some slight recipe changes a few patches ago)

[crude geode]

Lmao

What recipe changes was it

[hot zephyr]

lemme dig it up

[hollow shell]

@little stag I do have feedback in mind for your sugg. Would you like to hear it or should I just exclam it and leave it at that

(namely it is needlessly specific in the implementation idea. An item radar can be executed in countless different ways and you don't need your exact proposal to be an integral part of the suggestion, considering the proposed solution at its core is just replacing the recipes with a means to find them naturally easier)

[hot zephyr]

forgot where I actually saved my txt file proper, and I believe some recipes got changed since then/weren't included but here was one of my drafts

• remove the gold dust from metal detector's recipe, move to regular anvil
• change bezoar recipe to 3x murky paste, 7x stinger
• reduce the sandstorm in a bottle to 6 desert feathers instead of 10
• reduce the feather count in sandstorm in a bottle to 3
• reduce the feather count in blizzard in a bottle to 3
• reduce the lava buckets in lava charm to 3
• celestial magnet recipe replaced with treasure magnet and 5 fallen stars
• remove pink gel from slime staff recipe
• reduce water walking boots' water walking potion to 5 (from 8)
• increase swiftness potion count in hermes boosts (2 to 5)
• reduce cloud cost in balloons to 20
• reduce gel cost in balloons to 60
• add wooden boomerang to ice boomerang recipe
• replace cobalt in muramasa's recipe with aerialite and bones
• remove living shards from the spectre armor alt recipe
• remove living shards from the shroomite alt recipe, move to autohammer

[drowsy plank]

good changes

[crude geode]

Fun

Yee

[hollow shell]

I remember these changes happening

[hot zephyr]

this was back in like july pretty sure

[drowsy plank]

yeah im p sure these are all live CB was just asking what Ian's proposals were

[hot zephyr]

while I feel like my changes reduced the weirdly difficult outlier recipes now things are a bit too easy to craft and could get buffed

straight up, one of the simplest solutions to "sit in base and craft"-itis could just be making the recipes more difficult

[drowsy plank]

now if only it was that easy to fix cal's weapon recipes

also yeah that's also fair, but hopefully shimmer support exists in 1.4.4 because that would be a pretty easy fix for a lot of these, tho rebuffing the difficulty on some of them couldnt hurt ig

[cobalt pewter]

pink gel on slime staff one already happened ye (it uses gel now)

[hot zephyr]

I want to look at Calamity recipes eventually but at the time I didn't want to overcommit myself

[hot zephyr]

i believe all of these are live

this was months ago

[cobalt pewter]

ahh

[swift wharf]

they indeed are

[hot zephyr]

aerialite tier hell

end harpy violence

[drowsy plank]

i did that myself and thankfully it isn't too bad but a handful are still really weird or overcentralized

[hot zephyr]

I don't want to jumpscare the active devs with a massive document detailing every single item tho

considering most of them are on break until Porting 2 Electric Boogaloo begins

[drowsy plank]

makes sense lol, i sent my fixes to rover already once to get some donor IDs since uh

Clock Gatlignum sure is a crafting component

[hot zephyr]

batch your changes and ping me and maybe in a few months I'll do some trolling

[drowsy plank]

yeah ive got them written down, i tried to push them through suggs for a bit but people weren't receptive to 'em so i gave up lmao

[crude geode]

we’re shortening names down to acronyms 😭

[hot zephyr]

CB? Chicken Bones?

[swift wharf]

copper broadsword

[drowsy plank]

ian was literally replying to u i refuse to believe that one is hard to get. it's not like saying idfk PHPR and expecting people to know what that is with 0 context or something

[hot zephyr]

duh that's Phupperbat

[frosty trellis]

PolherPharst

[swift wharf]

A

[small timber]

just to be sure 1 life regen is 0.5 hp/sec right?

[distant gyro]

yes

[small timber]

👍
it is so gonna get only like 30 votes but at the same time I don't really have something else right now
(and I do think they are a problem)

[crude geode]

the title took me a minute to get

which isn't great

"make certain drunk princess' potions have higher downsides" would be a better title

[small timber]

hmm

kinda, though I think (most) of the defense downside are like ok

but yeah to prevent confusion probably change to that

[crude geode]

hence the certain

[distant gyro]

it's long no matter what but it's possibly better for clarity

[small timber]

I think this should be better?

[crude geode]

yeah that's a lot more clear

[short walrus]

this is a good sugg

though the sandstorm part should probably be a different sugg

[eternal escarp]

i suggested this once

i think it wasnt possible due to how sandgun works

[swift wharf]

make a sandgun upgrade

problem solved

[short walrus]

sandstorm:

[swift wharf]

gss isn't real gss isn't real gss isn't real gss isn't real gss isn't real

[eternal escarp]

i will kill you

[short walrus]

fungus reference (you can try)

[swift wharf]

it was never real wake up

[small timber]

what was their plan for GSS again

move it to like postML or something?

[swift wharf]

to kill it

[short walrus]

post providence

why do you hate gss its cool :(

[swift wharf]

makes me go snoooore mi mi mi mi

[ancient widget]

What

it's a miniboss

what's your point

is there some kind of grand overarching genius idea that I'm missing here?

or do you just not like the poor shark

[swift wharf]

It kinda sits in a weird place for a miniboss

[short walrus]

again: retier

[swift wharf]

but post ML has mauler

[short walrus]

maybe

[ancient widget]

If there was any plan to re-tier GSS, I'm unaware of it

[short walrus]

but you can never have too many sharks

gimme a sec

[swift wharf]

Like all other minibosses are pretty big on the mini if that makes sense

while gss it's in the middle lane of a boss and a miniboss

[short walrus]

ozzatron
#calamity-update-talk message

[swift wharf]

huh

[short walrus]

maybe the folks at the theory doc were just insane

[ancient widget]

That was quite some time ago, I'm not sure what the plans for it are now

We'll need to reconvene as a team and discuss it again

[swift wharf]

I think it would fit better before plant

Since it's when most people do the HM sandstorm

[short walrus]

ah, cool

[cobalt pewter]

inb4 trolle by old info

[short walrus]

fix your doc smh my head

ratio'd by fabsol himself

[tardy smelt]

Is it due to it having a full drop pool?

[swift wharf]

Ig it's that too maybe?

The drops are fine though

The summon item is the weirdest part though

[half sage]

mfw tempest staff reskin

that's less cool than the item it's an upgrade of

[swift wharf]

Which is even weirder

[tardy smelt]

Aside from the rogue ones and SSTN GSS's "drops" are a bit... underwhelming

I think

[cobalt pewter]

isn't Duststorm just plain broken

not sure about Sandslasher

[swift wharf]

funny spam weapon

rogue bottles are always funny

other minibosses just spawn natrually or during events

while gss does that too

but post plant

but also has a summoning item

[tardy smelt]

I like Sandslasher for being one of those rogue weapons that's unique in how you have to aim with it

I feel like that's rogue's most logical niche when it comes to more complex weapons

[cobalt pewter]

yeah I just

have no idea how well Sandslasher is doing atm

[swift wharf]

Would be interesting if gss was moved to early HM

but the weapons kept in post plant

[lucid flare]

i fuckin hate this community's acronyms i thought you were talking about god slayers slugs for a minute

[swift wharf]

how tf are godslayer slugs more relevant

[lucid flare]

idk that's why i had no idea what you were talking about

then i scrolled up & realized you were talking about great sand shark

[neat linden]

more people remember the slugs than the shark tbhtbh

i also instantly think "god slayer slugs" when i hear "GSS"

[tardy smelt]

I think of Great Sand Shark

[chrome wyvern]

I think of the big shark too

[neat linden]

i often forget he even exists

[tardy smelt]

Its Infernum brainrot in a sense because GSS has been a hot topic in regards to that for the past few days

[swift wharf]

is the miniboss good in infernum

[tardy smelt]

Well,

It used to be a full boss with its own AI reworked from ground up

[swift wharf]

yeah I remember that but didn't fight it back then

[tardy smelt]

Said boss fight was kinda
Awful
So it got removed temporarily and it's getting reworked from ground up again

This iterations really awesome though (I think)

[swift wharf]

I see

[drowsy plank]

gay sand shart

he's so fuckin weird

clearly this is what post plant needed

another miniboss and set of weapons

he's so forgettable, whether he gets moved to early Hardmode or post-Moon Lord, anything would be better than what we have now

[neat linden]

plantera when beating her unlocks 16384 weapons from various sources

[swift wharf]

if he was moved to early hm

it would give players a reliable source of dark/light shards and probably forbidden fragments

[drowsy plank]

true

[glass arch]

yeah plantera unlocks probably too much