Tech Lab forum - General Discussions!

[jade scaffold]

TC 3000s are Storeage controllers

they are head units for JBODs

what i can find is it uses mellanox cards

See if who ever is giving you this server has any of these

the FL6000 is particularly valuable i believe

[pseudo heath]

My printer started making this noise and I don’t know why… anyone have any idea?

[lusty heart]

Is it worth upgrading to Win 11 yet? I just saw the popup when I started my PC about it ending in Oct

[sacred seal]

Windows 11 is not bad, but I would not update until windows 10 is actually killed off. There is always a chance that microsoft changes thier mind

[surreal moss]

I concur with Shadow. I’m actually considering switching to SteamOS or another Unix distribution in October rather than the upgrade to 11

[tender plank]

Discord, I'm using the desktop app.

[pseudo heath]

😂

[vestal stirrup]

Thank you all for your help! I expected something not high spec but had never dealt with anything like that before

[cinder lagoon]

Better asked in #1058874733610946581
also please try filming it in regular h264 (mp4) video, this seems to be h265 or Apple's specific format

Ahh I see you've already done that...
and it just seems the video uploaded in this channel is corrupt for some reason

[pseudo heath]

👍

[pseudo heath]

IDK man… I just used the video my iPhone gave me…

[cinder lagoon]

Yea, weird that it worked in the other channel

[pseudo heath]

It’s just the video capture for discord mobile lol

[cinder lagoon]

Seems like the IOS Version of Discord is broken then 😂

[pseudo heath]

lol

[mossy gull]

I have this also on Discord Android

[cinder lagoon]

Huh... They done messed up

[frozen igloo]

Any laptop recommendations for video editing and software development? I already have a good desktop though im looking into getting something I can bring with on site or to the office, I don’t have a strong preference for mac or windows, I could go up to 2.5k usd but ideally it would be less

[mossy gull]

MSI Titan 18HX🤔

[cinder lagoon]

them new AMD APU ones

video editing is actually great on the Apple M series

software development is not fun on macOS tho so you need at least a virtual machine

[mossy gull]

The ones in the Asus ROG Z13 2025 and Framework Desktop?

[cinder lagoon]

i think Asus Zenbook S 16 or similar has one

just set up that laptop for my boss the other day

[cinder lagoon]

also: what kinda software?
existing software? new project / coding beginner ?
giant ERP systems?
much time away from the wall?

[frozen igloo]

I would be editing in Davinci resolve, im still what I would consider a beginning programmer, Im still in school for it, I would like to have decent battery as I have a good desktop for when im at home

[cinder lagoon]

hmm ok

in that case I would recommend against apple

[mossy gull]

I can't find the Vivobook S16 with the Ryzen Ultra

[cinder lagoon]

thats not what I wrote 💔

[mossy gull]

I only know the Zephyrus Z13 2025 has 1

[cinder lagoon]

complete list rn seems to be:

• Asus ROG Flow Z13 GZ302
• Framework Desktop
• GMKtek EVO-X2
• HP Z2 Mini
• HP ZBook Ultra 14 G1a

[cinder lagoon]

do you need touch / convertible form factor?

[frozen igloo]

I don’t, I wouldn’t mind a touchscreen for some of the stuff I do but it’s not a requirement

[cinder lagoon]

aight

budget?

[frozen igloo]

Up to 2.5k usd, preferably less. I work in video production so I need a pretty good computer for editing etc. Im currently in school for computer science and plan on making software for media production

I do live within range of a microcenter in case they have better deals

[cinder lagoon]

ohh, that's a hefty budget

what about used hardware?

[frozen igloo]

I’m good with used, I would ideally not spend near that much but I could go up to that, I have a 7700x and 4070ti super in my desktop, I don’t need that horsepower in my laptop

[cinder lagoon]

thing is - laptop hardware with the same name is a third more expensive and about half as fast

at least in terms of GPU

[frozen igloo]

I pretty well aware of the price disparity between desktop and mobile, right now on the windows side of laptops Im looking at framework or px13, I haven’t done a lot of research yet though

[mossy gull]

You know powerful and a good battery life don't combine in laptops?

[cinder lagoon]

except in M2- to M4

[frozen igloo]

Im aware, that’s part of the reason Im considering mac

My current laptop only gets me 3-4 hours but it doesn’t have the horsepower for me to edit

[cinder lagoon]

So these new AMD Strix Halo Laptops seem to come from anywhere between $1000 to $2700 depending on the build quality and configuration.
How long are you willing to wait before you buy the new machine?
Might be another month till they are actually available

[frozen igloo]

I'm not in rush at all, the strix halo are the ones with the unifed memory that you can dynamically allocate right?

[mossy gull]

Yes

[timber barn]

Mac or Framework Laptops I would recommend

The Framework with a Linux Distro of course

[jade scaffold]

What's your battery life requirement what kinda software you developing when video editing are you editing 8k footage or not

Intel's lunar lake chips if you aren't editing something insanely intensive might be a good shout by far the best battery life of any x86 device equivalent performance at the same wattage as the Ryzen strix processors upto 32gb of ram and you get the additional intel Vedo editing features

[mossy gull]

I can say, Intel's encoders far surpass AMD's encoders

[jade scaffold]

And their gpus have some weird tech they makes them waay faster and scrubbing through video footage I believe

[mossy gull]

GPUs that turn off once an dGPU is present in desktops😅

1 thing I find a slight disadvantage on Intel CPUs, 1 thing AMD does slightly better.

[cinder lagoon]

Intel does not have actual APUs tho, do they? 🤔

[frozen igloo]

I don’t think I will be doing more than 4k for a while, I plan on making a graphics engine and playout server

[jade scaffold]

Yea they do

They have had chips with both CPU and iris XE graphics for like 3 years

Not to mention lunar lake

[cinder lagoon]

Well - I mean are they any good?

[jade scaffold]

Yea

Lunar lake is by far the best apu on the market for laptops

[cinder lagoon]

._. How have I been left behind on that?

[jade scaffold]

It's the most efficient by a landslide performance is almost identical to the hx370 at 30 keep in mind let nsr lake is a full tilt SOC so when it's running at "30w" it's really running at more like 25w

The only problem it has is ram isnt upgradeable

[cinder lagoon]

Yeah I remember they mostly switched to soldered

[jade scaffold]

But the trade off for that is the Ram is on package DDR5X 8533mhz

[cinder lagoon]

Or at least that new standard (what's it called?)

[jade scaffold]

It's soldered onto the CPU substrate

[cinder lagoon]

Yea it do be faster

OHH wait so their new laptop chips are entirely SOC?

[jade scaffold]

Yea pretty much the only thing not on the chip is actual storage

Unfortunately because if this it's a pretty pricey boi

If it wasn't it'd be the goto for handhelds

[cinder lagoon]

hell naw, never put my storage on the other components

call me old-fashioned but I don't need any gained speed if the storage wears out or fails or I want to swap it because I do

[jade scaffold]

Yea but a gen5 128gb optane flash for boot would be insane

Thing would genuinely pull like 4 seconds boot times

[cinder lagoon]

I think currently the limiting factor is the bloat of operating systems, needing to process all that incoming data for all the background shit microsoft likes to pull

That also counts for most linux distros tho

Those boot processes are just too many steps

• Initialize motherboard hardware, wait for OK from basically every chip
• Read (pretty slow) BIOS chip
• Basic memory training
• Enumarate all devices, wait for THEIR BIOS data
• List all storage devices (find even those behind bus switches!)
• initialize EFI sub system
• Read EFI variable storage
• Read boot order
• Read partition tables
• Match partitions to boot order
• Process EFI part File System
• Find relevant boot file (offset) according to boot order
• Secure boot shenanigans, validate checksums of the entire system
• Load RAM disk into memory
  and then, and only then stuff starts to get actually parallelized.

Then there's stuff like disk encryption, virtual partitions, mounting rootfs, initializing a BUTT ton of services before you finally get into a login screen

Have ya ever seen a systemd service dependency graph?

I know Ubuntu is not really optimized for (startup) speed but JESUS there's alot of dependencies

[mossy gull]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PcBuild/s/VTnzBbKoft

[runic thorn]

They could make thermal pads shaped like paw prints or something. I'm sure something like that can still work.

[cinder lagoon]

many AiOs come with a honeycomb paste pattern pre-applied

[runic thorn]

Close enough to the animal kingdom. 😄

[cinder lagoon]

Just got hold of my new ugreen usb-c power supply... crazy how small it is and how great it works

Like it does the full capability if a single port is used or splits it along the three ports if needed...
and it's the same size as my xiaomi usb-c brick which only does 45W (30 + 15, no matter how many devices) and it was constantly hot with my laptop

[grizzled oracle]

in case anyone finds this interesting i was able to solve tripping OC protection by getting rid of this cursed $30 chinesium rgb extension cable

[cinder lagoon]

Wait so thats like a Lian-li strimer knock-off?

[grizzled oracle]

SC must have just somehow been the only game unhinged enough to trigger spikes like that, i was able to replicate the blackscreen multiple times last night and have had zero trouble 3 hours into testing now

[grizzled oracle]

yeah exactly for half the price, to its credit it looked cool but could just not handle whatever the hell entering atmo in star citizen does

[cinder lagoon]

Or do you now just have multiple fans not lighting up?

[grizzled oracle]

rgb fans still going fine the whole time

[cinder lagoon]

Rgb splitters (both for adressable LEDs and full-color strips) are non-active components, so no extra draw usually

[grizzled oracle]

i am more thinking something had to have been going awry when it came to power delivery to the gpu, not the rgb in the cable but the extension cable itself

[cinder lagoon]

Hmmm maybe, yeah

If the cable itself or the connectors from it are low quality, it will use more power than the GPU actually uses and dissipate it as heat

If you'd want you could try again and feeling if the cable or connector gets hot

[grizzled oracle]

it was alarmingly warm when i hard shut down to swap to base cables and it had only been idling for hours

no evidence of burn or melt on the gpu or cable on either end though

[cinder lagoon]

Dang might have gotten lucky ._.

Warm during idle (GPUs might pull like 10-20W) and not melted under full load sounds implausable but possible enough

[west mirage]

So ive been getting a million blue screen

Memory management pfn page fault

Watch dog error

All these errors point towards faulty reasoning or somewhat incompatible ram

These errors only occur when starting the computer from its off state

I’ve been having these errors since i built the thing but usually a few restarts every bluescreen and then its fine no issue so i never cared to really fix it

But they’re getting worse

Ive also replaced everything in it besides the ram

And the SSD

Ive run every diagnostic imaginable and literally found nothing wrong but ive got a suspicion its the ram

[mossy gull]

@west mirage have you tried to run with 1 RAM stick?

[mossy gull]

https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-ai-max-395-strix-halo-apu-over-3x-faster-rtx-5080-in-deepseek-benchmarks/

[jade scaffold]

yea thats kinda a missleading article

its not faster

the 5080 just isnt actually able to run it

wellk not missleading more like pointless and totally unimpressive

as if it couldnt run a model that requires over 100gb of VRAM better than a card with 16gb of VRAM that would be a problem

[cinder lagoon]

Did you change your system config recently?
If not please run windows "memory diagnostic" tool for an extended period of time.

if this also fails it's a hardware problem, if not it might be a problem with your windows install.

[west mirage]

Yes

Ive also reinstalled windows over 8 times

Never fixed a thing

[mossy gull]

Have you tried to use another motherboard?

[surreal moss]

And DGX Sparks reserved. Just need them to be released

[west mirage]

Yes

As ive said Ive replaced everything piece of hardware

Besides the RAM and SSD

motherboard, gpu, cpu, since the rig was built has all been replaced or upgraded

Im running windows memory diagnostic right now

I dont have much hope it’ll find anything as it hasn’t in the past

[west mirage]

If this fails, and the only 2 things that haven’t been replaced are the ssd and the ram, what do you think it is?

The SSD or the ram

Oh i might have my answer. Idk why nothing showed the first million times around but its saying hardware problems were detected

[tender plank]

Finally getting all the stuff for my T420. Got a couple E5-2470 V2s and 192GB of memory showed up today. Making a nice Proxmox host to get the VMs off of my desktop.

[cerulean helm]

Okay, well happy me. I found and was able to purchase an open box Asus Tuf 4080 Super from Newegg for a reasonable price given the circumstances. And I'll have it on Friday.

[jade scaffold]

nice

how much?

[west mirage]

Also funny new issue

Ive ordered new ram

but for some reason my sound is legit not working

no devices are being recognized by window

no sound whatsoever

ok i managed to turn it back on no sound still

[cerulean helm]

$1199 plus tax. So $100 more than its original msrp, but its an open box final sale. So over paid but not an unreasonable amount imo. Biggest caveat is the final sale listing, aka no returns.

[jade scaffold]

yea

not the worst price ever

the market for GPUs rn is completely terrible

[cerulean helm]

https://www.newegg.com/asus-tuf-gaming-tuf-rtx4080s-o16g-gaming-nvidia-geforce-rtx-4080-super-16gb-gddr6x/p/N82E16814126693R?Item=N82E16814126693R&SoldByNewegg=1

[jade scaffold]

im still waiting for 5090s to start exsisting

honest to god might be somehow easier to get the RTX PRO GPUs than a fucking 5090

[cerulean helm]

Yeah, i'm not holding my breath for high end 50 series cards. Plus, I'd rather not risk the whole burning/melting issues or missing ROPs. And given I'm in the U.S a whole host of "other issues" causing chaos I'm not hedging my bets on prices for gpus to drop at all.

[jade scaffold]

the melting issue is still a thing on 40 serise too

12v hpwr is just ass

if i do get a 5090 that connector is getting desoldered and replaced with something a bit less flamable

[cerulean helm]

More of an issue on the 4090s if I recall correctly.

[jade scaffold]

i do have a 5080 atm which i got as a place holder temporailly

[jade scaffold]

yea the power draw on the 4080 and 5080 is too low to melt the cable except under a very extreme faliure

[cerulean helm]

Thats my hope/stance anyways. But I need to buy a 12v hpwr ( that is just annoying to type out) as I have no idea if the open box gpu will have its original one.

[jade scaffold]

it should do

if your PSU has one that should also still have it

im using the one that comes out of my PSU ATM for the 5080

also have you seen the new quadros

the RTX Pro 6000 has the kind of core Specs the 5090 should have had

24,000+ cores

10% more cores than the 5090 it has a 600w default TDP too the only thing that would make it perfect is having a second power connector so it can get over 700w without bursting instantly into flames

[cerulean helm]

Again, open box. It may or may not have all its accessories including the adaptor cable.
And my PSU is from 2017 so didn't exist then.

I really did good with this PSU. Overspeced in 2017 to an 850w. EVGA branded Sunflower 80+ plantuim.

[jade scaffold]

ive been having issues with an 850w PSU and a 3080ti on my brothers PC

had to undervolt the GPU to prevent it from tripping OCP

need a new SFX PSU thats really good quality

and also not gonna cost like a million quid

[jade scaffold]

i got my recent PSU with future proofing in mind

[cerulean helm]

Hmm, try Seasonic for sfx, their focus line is pretty small if I remember correctly.

[jade scaffold]

Bequiet Dark Power 13
1.3KW it can in theory actually do 2.6KW according to bequiet

[jade scaffold]

they dont really do SFX PSUs

not 850w+ ones anyway

[jade scaffold]

5080 stock

5080 OC

About an 11.3% difference in score and in average frame rate this is at the stock fan curve can likely get even more clock speed by just CRANKING the GPU fans and all the case fans which ill do tomorrow once everyone is actually awake

[cerulean helm]

Interesting, Newegg has 3 different 4080 Supers that are open box for $1200ish. And more than 1 of each as the one I ordered is still available. They also have the 5080 version of the card I ordered for almost $1600... No thanks.

[cinder lagoon]

Hmm thought so 🤔
if you have not yet, could also try "re-seating" the ram i.E. taking it out and putting back in after inspecting contacts for gunk.

[cinder lagoon]

Screenshot of device manager?
If not fixed yet, try reinstalling audio drivers from motherboard support website

[jade scaffold]

I was lucky to grab mine at launch

And lucky to get the super cool FE cards

[west mirage]

Yes I still have no audio

Idk wtf happened ive tried reinstalling drivers to no avail

[west mirage]

The issue is faulty ram

Been occuring for 3 years now

I've ordered brand new ram so that issue will be resolved soon

[cinder lagoon]

Regarding the no-audio - what does device manager show?

[cerulean helm]

And got the water block ordered for the new gpu.

[tender plank]

Man, why are heatsinks so sharp? I was replacing the mounting hardware and it slipped and a sliced open the tip of my finger.

[mossy gull]

Get rekt of I mean yeah that always sucks about heatsinks

[cinder lagoon]

Cuz it's just stamped metal haha rip
some higher end manufacturers run the plates through a deburring before they ship
some even coat it in a (black) lacquer which also helps.
The bare ones are difficult tho

[mossy gull]

Fun fact: AMD had roughly 200K 9070 series GPUs, and they were all sold out in the 1st week of launch.

[jade scaffold]

Because if you don't spill blood over your computer it won't work

[sonic meadow]

and with most motherboards not having the IO shields of old, that sacrifice spot is gone

[jade scaffold]

Yea but a sharp CPU GPU or ram heatsink are all just as good

[grizzled oracle]

Does anyone know of free software that allows you to collate images & PDFs into a singular PDF

I am trying to overhaul and digitize an ancient logistics industry invoicing flow that has run on hard copy for probably 60 years and naturally an adobe subscription is not in the cards

[sacred seal]

I just Google free pdf merger online.

Though that may not be an option if you are dealing with sensitive info

You can use inkscape but it's not really designed for that.

[cinder lagoon]

Pdf24 is a great free PDF suite

[surreal moss]

If this is a business remind them that sometimes they need to spend money to make money. Most of the free ones are good but if they're wanting to look professional they should be willing to spend for it. Even if it's for a short time

[mossy gull]

@jade scaffold
https://youtu.be/WzwrLLg1RR4?si=cEW9GQi_f_a_nqFL

[jade scaffold]

yea saw this cursed thing lmao

[cerulean helm]

And then this was posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmOK0KWAEXw

The original title of Buildzoid's video was "ranting about LTT misinformation".

[jade scaffold]

Look at this Abominable thing

4 gpus on 1 chip

1 TB of HBM4e Memory

probably some 64,000-100,000 CUDA cores what the hell

[mossy gull]

And we never can buy it

[jade scaffold]

you could never use it either its not a GPU

the tech is still cool as hell though

600kw rack lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBQzViR4xU4

[mossy gull]

@jade scaffold so if I am correct from Linus's video, 12-pin is basically just cheaper than 2 very thick wires.....
Even though both would work the same.

[jade scaffold]

yes 2 very thick wires would also be harder to fit

but the wiers arent the issue anyway

its the actual connector thats the problem

[cinder lagoon]

Seems to be - afaik it's also easier to mate multiple small round (/rectangular) pins than properly mating bigger plates with good contact

[jade scaffold]

the pins are in theory fine

the issue is they are so fragile and so small even the slightest miss alignment can cause bad contact

[cinder lagoon]

So even if the plug would have the 16 wires soldered to small bus bars, it would still be an issue

[jade scaffold]

if it were 16 wires soldered to 2 bus bars as long as the surface area of the 12V bar is big enough to get sufficient contact with the connector that would have been fine

[cinder lagoon]

Hell yeah, here's to hoping the bsb1 will come down in price 🙏🏽

[jade scaffold]

yea its still not perfect though

still no 120hz

[cinder lagoon]

What I'm saying is it's more difficult to mate two bus bars without the force of a screw or similar, perhaps even more fragile of a connection

[cinder lagoon]

First one was 90, was it?
IMO enough, absolutely makes up for it in the weight it saves 💯

[jade scaffold]

like 120hz should 100% be possible at that resolution but for what ever reason they can only cram 75hz

[jade scaffold]

75hz

the new one is also 75hz

at full resolution

and it needs a wire

because of needing a wire it might end up feeling less mobile than a quest 3

[cinder lagoon]

Ahhh hmm, 90 would've been fine... 75... eeehhh more for consuming content then, ay?

[jade scaffold]

the quest 3 still has superior lenses and fov to the BSB 1

all be it at a lower resolution but in tern it can do 120hz

[cinder lagoon]

There were kits to make the first one wireless, ay?

[jade scaffold]

120hz at the same resolution the BSB 1 and 2 can only do at 90

and i now for a fact 120hz at their full resolution is possible because my monitor is EXACTLY HALF their resolution and can do 240hz and its not even on the newest DP spec

[cinder lagoon]

Ohh wait so it was a bandwidth problem, not a panel issue?

[jade scaffold]

i would assume so

[cinder lagoon]

Then I'd say the display controller is not good enough and they might've not found a suitable replacement that doesn't take way more power (which in turn requires better power deliver, which is heavier lol)

[jade scaffold]

no other reason why a 2560x2560 pannel couldnt do 90 hz at full res

yea but its USB C powered

which can do like 240w

or even out of a normal PC port can do like 24w

which is far more than enough to drive 2 displays

[cinder lagoon]

Here's the thing: USB PD (the power protocol behind USB-C spec) does have the intention of being capable of 240W, yet nobody has done it yet.
There are no common (say Texas instruments etc) USB-PD controller that are capable of requesting that much power yet

[jade scaffold]

loads of people have done it yet

theres like 3 one plus phones that do it

and its irrelivant anyway

a VR headset like BSB does not consume that much power

[cinder lagoon]

There's still power delivery components on the board (even though it doesn't need to convert AC to DC or whatever

[jade scaffold]

id be surprised if its pulling more than 5w

[cinder lagoon]

Just recently there have been a hand ful of devices that pull 240W via USB-C but they don't do it according to the official spec

[cinder lagoon]

They opted for lightness still

[jade scaffold]

and?

making it able to run at 90hz full resolution cannot possibly add much weight to it

the headsets main draw is that huge resolution

to achive 90 hz it needs to drop its Resolution down to quest 3 levels and the quest 3 has equivilent lensing technology can be used wireless can do 120hz has built in hand tracking doesnt require base stations can play games stand alone and comes with controlers while being ** H A L F** the price

[cinder lagoon]

I can't imagine they did that without any reason 😂

[jade scaffold]

i cant imagine it being a good one

its not power the ONLY reason i can think is they didnt want to bother implimenting the new DP standards

or they didnt want to use any compression

but a compressed 5120x2560 image will ALLWAYS look better than an uncompressed 4000x2000 image

[cinder lagoon]

Could be... even though DP doesn't even have any license fees like HDMI that might need to be renewed for a new spec 🤔

[jade scaffold]

which just sucks

the foviated rendering isnt even ready yet either

so you cant even use foviated rendering atm to work arround bandwidth limits

[cinder lagoon]

Doubt that foviated image transmission is supported by any Display spec (which seems to be the limiting factor here?)

[jade scaffold]

it is

the issue is Valve are a set of useless basttards who cant be arsed to do anything worth while in an industry more than once per decade

what is currently being waited on is for Valve to impliment native Foviated rendering into Steam VR which for what ever reason they didnt do 3 years ago

[cinder lagoon]

They too busy makin bank

[jade scaffold]

too busy doing nothing

[cinder lagoon]

For real, I think they can afford to hire more engineers haha

[jade scaffold]

valves entire industry strategy is "Do nothing while everyone else shoots themselfs in the foot"

[cinder lagoon]

And it keeps working

[jade scaffold]

also because valve is TOTALLY unmanaged nothing ever gets done

like thats not a joke

theres next to no management hierarchy in valve

[cinder lagoon]

They do make good things, when they finally release them thp

[jade scaffold]

and for what ever reason valve refuse to make more than 1 product in an industry

like they made the index and HLA then did nothing as the index became nearly totally obsolete and wholly uncompetitive

they made the steam deck and i bet they wont make another untill its become totally irrelivant

this is valves problem

they jumpscare the industry then dont activly compete in the industry

[cinder lagoon]

They have like 140 workers so I can't blame them for not making enough stuff

I CAN blame them for not hiring enough tho

[jade scaffold]

valve is solely responsible for the frankly SORRY state of VR atm

valve hit the VR industry with the best headset at the time and an amazing AAA VR Experience then fucking dipped from the industry entirely

if i were valve my next move would have been to try and reduce the cost of entry to VR and make a VR game thats forever repayable multiplayer and actually good fun

[cinder lagoon]

And they kept the index price UP while it's not even half way competetice anymore

[sacred seal]

Best in the technical sense, but the build quality was atrocious. I can see why they dipped, the amount of RMAs they were getting probably nuked thier profit magins

[jade scaffold]

Payday 2 is the Best VR Game ever made and its not even a fucking dedicated VR game

[jade scaffold]

oh yea the Index is built like shit

its so fragile

particularly the controlers and stupid ass proprietary cable

shoulda just used USBC

[sacred seal]

I think my brother managed to get 3 sets of controllers, both base stations, two cables and the headset itself replaced within the warrenty period

[cinder lagoon]

Really? I found the build quality fantastic 🤔
Their RMA policy was really good tho so I can see that

[jade scaffold]

i dont think you've had many vr headsets have you

the headset part iself is fine enough

[cinder lagoon]

Tbh I don't think the controllers were partitulalry made for smashing into things but otherwise it was great

[jade scaffold]

oh no the controlers just suck

they'll break if you literally dont even touch them

[sacred seal]

Sticks, finger tracking and spacial tracking all died

[jade scaffold]

they are so profoundly fragile

[cinder lagoon]

Friend had the HTC vive (2?) (remember when they were still relevant in any sense?)

[sacred seal]

My borther has a big space for VR, he does not abuse his controllers

[jade scaffold]

they have charging issues

they are made out of really crap plastic they are totally unrepairable

[sacred seal]

I honestly wonder if valve made any money on vr with just how many devices they had to replace

[jade scaffold]

you CANNOT fix an index controler

[sacred seal]

Like it is that bad

[jade scaffold]

it was just not intelligently designed

it wasnt made for the kind of wear and tear VR Demands

it cant survive being shaken the tracking rings have no structural support in them so if you do bump them on something they just break

[cinder lagoon]

I was able to open mine up just fnine 🤔

[jade scaffold]

no you werent

the index controler has one of the lowest repairability scores on Ifixits website

[sacred seal]

You can access some parts, but the vast majority are inaccessable. I remember looking into whether or not you could replace the thumbsticks and while technically possible, it looked like a nightmare

[jade scaffold]

you can get the board out of them fine enough

but the battery is a nightmare you CANT replace the sensors or charging circuitry

[cinder lagoon]

Ohhh that's what you mneant...
I was thinking about it more in a sense of is it open-able and not glued shut, which it's not really...

[jade scaffold]

they use a cement material to hold the cover over the tracking ring on so thats impossible to remove without damage

oh no parts of it are glued shut

[sacred seal]

Two of the controllers had to be rmaed because the sticks wore out so much that they were literally flopping around

[cinder lagoon]

Didn't think about the tech being compartmentalized so you could repair single broken components easily by swapping PCB / sensor

[jade scaffold]

the battery ISNT REPLACEABLE

you have to remove the tracking ring to get to the battery

which may i remind you is CEMENTED DOWN

[cinder lagoon]

The knuckle ring is glued? :o

[jade scaffold]

yea

yea it is

the index is a pile of SHIT

the headset part of it is fine

that bit doesnt really break

[sacred seal]

I think the batteries are the only thing my brother has not had die on the controllers

[cinder lagoon]

Huh... glad I didn't have to deal with that then

[jade scaffold]

they dont last long enough for the batteries to fucking die on them

[sacred seal]

Even the headset dies after a certain number of hours. Screen starts showing "stars"

[jade scaffold]

thats the cable

i know thats the cable because ive had to fix the issue

[sacred seal]

Thats the cable, but it can also be the headset

[jade scaffold]

it also sometimes defaults to a weird transfer protocall which causes it

and switching it back tends to fix it

[surreal moss]

[jade scaffold]

basically the index while in theory very cool

is a uh

very very very poorly built VR headset

[surreal moss]

I genuinely haven’t had any problems with mine

[jade scaffold]

can literally get a quest 3 + Pro controlers for less than an index these days and you get equivilent tracking better screens better lenses still get finger tracking

[surreal moss]

Out the previous one I owned

[sacred seal]

How many hours did you put on it

Its typically good for about 200-300 hours

[jade scaffold]

yea

then it starts eating shit

[surreal moss]

I’m sitting around 300 hours

[jade scaffold]

people who put like a 1000 hours into VR with the index have had to replace the controlers like 3 times

its also just a bad value these days

[surreal moss]

Okay

[jade scaffold]

i still see people recommend the index, and i dont get why

it has bad screens bad lenses and is very likely to break if you use it lots and costs 2x a quest 3

[sacred seal]

Well I would say that it is technically better then a quest 3

[jade scaffold]

i dont think it is in any way

[sacred seal]

My brother has a quest 3 and he still daily drives the index

[cinder lagoon]

Absolutely not, just because of the humongous price

[jade scaffold]

its tracking is only equivilent its VASTLY lower resolution its lenses are TRASH

its only got a 24hz refresh rate advantage

over the quest 3

[surreal moss]

I love the controllers

[jade scaffold]

the controlers are nice

[sacred seal]

Tracking and the controllers (when they don't die) are significantly better according to him.

[surreal moss]

And don’t have a problem with the resolution in most cases

[jade scaffold]

but again are unrepairable and unreliable

[jade scaffold]

compared to the basic quest 3 controlers the tracking is better

but the inside out tracking of the pro controlers is considered equivilent

and the pro controlers from the quest pro are just vastly more durrable

[jade scaffold]

maybe not if it was a $200 headset

[sacred seal]

Can you even buy the pro controllers anymore?

[jade scaffold]

yea

i think they still make the controlers

just not the headset iself

[jade scaffold]

listed as availabe to me on the meta store

[sacred seal]

Mabey becuase I am in Japan

[jade scaffold]

maybe yea

im in the UK

like i said if i were valve i would have made a "budget" headset something more affordable maybe with more basic controlers than the Index so they arent as likely to die in all sorts of weird and horrible ways

[west mirage]

njeed some help asap

I installed the new ram but only 2 of the 4 dimm slots are being used

[mossy gull]

Have you tried to reset the BIOS?

[west mirage]

That fixed it

Guess what

All my bluescreens are fixed

[sonic meadow]

A bad overclock maybe 🤔 (ie xmp getting a bit confused)

[west mirage]

No my old ram was faulty

[cerulean helm]

Holy crap, installing a new GPU is a chore when your old one is water blocked and the new one isn't... That was not fun. Also discovered one of my m.2 pcie cards hits the Asus 4080 super shroud. So, had to move that m.2 into the pcie gen 5 m.2 slot. Which then puts my 4080 super in x8... Temp solution until the new water block arrives.

The fuck? My 2nd monitor is now green tinted?

[jade scaffold]

My bequiet PSU just exploded

It's dead dead

[cerulean helm]

Okay, weird monitor colors figured out. Had to recalibrate.

Also, holy crap I forgot how damn loud air cooled cards are. I cannot wait for the new waterblock.

[cerulean helm]

Well, a quick a dirty overclock and I'm impressed. +150 on the core and +1000 on the memory.

Also, I was right that I was Vram bottlenecked with my 3080. Tested with my heavily modded Skyrim and I hit over 12gb of Vram in Riften.

[mossy gull]

That's weird, is the rest of the system okay?

[mossy gull]

And people will always say "That's not possible", but yeah, VRAM is becoming more and more important.

Especially in modded games

[sacred seal]

Just because a game is reporting that it uses more vram does not mean it actually is. Vram usage scales with vram availability, if you have more vram it will ask for more vram. The only way to test vram bottlencking is to use a program that loads a set amount of data into the GPU and slowly increase that amount until you see a change in your disk access (indicating that the game is having to swap things from the drive more often).

If you watch those videos with modded cards that have double vram, its quite common that the games will use more vram across tests, even if they were not maxing it on the lower vram card.

Even just when I upgraded from my gtx1080 to my 6900xt which doubled my vram I noticed a marked increase in vram ussage just for windows desktop (though granted this may not be a super relyable measure as I have issues with microsoft products having memory leaks).

Right now steam is using 1gb of vram just loading my library. Steam does not need 1gb of vram just to run, if you open steam on a 4gb card its not going to use up 25% of your vram. But because I have the vram to spare it has requested a larger allocation then is needed.

[jade scaffold]

Seems to be my brother's got a free 5080 untill I get a new PSU or untill the rma for this one is done

[cinder lagoon]

GGs, RIP anything else affected?

[sonic meadow]

grrrr, I dont think my laptop fan works when the laptop is on its side 😦

[cinder lagoon]

...huh?

Like it stop spinning if you turn the laptop sideways?

And how sideways we talkin? Like viewing in bed while laying on your side?

[sonic meadow]

well I think thats whats been happening. a few times now I have set it on its side while a game is running so I can actually use my PC and then a while later noticed it sitting at 100c

its still reporting rpm, so I dont really know whats going on

[cinder lagoon]

Well, do you hear the fan?

It's quite possible that the vapor chamber does not work while sideways

[sonic meadow]

I had headphones on 😆
I didnt notice any warm air coming out the vent either

[cinder lagoon]

If you're ocncerned about something choking up the air intake prop it up with a book in the back or something similar

[sonic meadow]

vapor chambers shouldnt care about orientation 🤔

[cinder lagoon]

Absolutely they will!

Some do not

Most will

The crystalline structure might do enough wicking to get the liquid back to the hot side but depending on how it's designed exactly that might not work while sideways and stuff will more or less pool on a cold side

[sonic meadow]

that could be it 🤔

Vapor chambers are best used in horizontal orientations. The effects of gravity may vary depending on application and orientation, but one must consider lower performance if used above 15° out of horizontal.
(from https://wakefieldthermal.com/thermal-solutions/two-phase-cooling/vapor-chambers/)

[cinder lagoon]

If it's still reporting adequate RPM it does have RPM btw.
The sensing is directly dependant on the rotor spinning and is quite impossible to have errors in that process (if the reading is not fluctuating all over the place)

[sonic meadow]

heh, I had one that read a few hundred rpm at idle. silly bugger
ie I could see it wasnt spinning

[cinder lagoon]

Thats a problem in the algorithm calculating the value from between the rotation pulses then xD
unfaithful implementation then, bad design. Engineer probably clamped the value to the expected minimum rpm (which is not the point of an RPM reading lol)

[sonic meadow]

nah, I think I fucked something by probing odd places

[cinder lagoon]

Like the fan just pulls the RPM sense pin to ground every rotation, the rest should just be an algorithm that measures the time between pulses

[sonic meadow]

that one did work properly at some point

I really need to reattach a fan to that board at some point...

[cinder lagoon]

In that case the sense pin of the fan controller chip was probably floating (not connected to anything whihc should lead to wildly fluctuating readouts

[sonic meadow]

while a fan was connected

(a full pwm capable 4 pin fan)

[cinder lagoon]

Yes I get that but there was a hardware defect somewhere then that practically disconnected the pin from the fan

[sonic meadow]

this was a constant offset throughout the rpm range

or at least im pretty sure it was. this was aaaaages ago now. and I didnt want to use that fan anyway, bearing was buggered

[cinder lagoon]

Trust me, that was a defect then - I implemented fan logic like this in a professional setting before and have also implemented a hardware defect like this so I know the symptoms xD

Like I looked at best practices etc

[cinder lagoon]

Lemme know if un-turning it sideways fixes the problem tho!

[sonic meadow]

at idle it doesnt seem to care. ~4w 45c 0rpm 😆

[cinder lagoon]

Thing with vapor chambers / heat pipes is:
once they are overwhelmed, their failure is exponential - i.E. At the same load the temperature starts rising faster and faster and the maximum usable load of that pipe jumps from like 40W to 5W. Load then needs to get reduced to the point where the liquid can reliably form again, then the max load is 40W again

[cinder lagoon]

Reminder since this does not seem to have gained enough traction yet:

🇪🇺 The "Stop Killing Games" official EU petition is online right now!

You can sign here by filling out a formular or submitting your signature via your (gov-issued) EU eID!
Bringing this petition to 1 Million signatures forces parliament to answer to it in some way (likely actually accepting it and ready-ing a law, (which in turn also affects games from/inside the US) which is really important to stop game-publishers to delete (i.E. make unplayable) entire eras of game-history!

This is important because:

• There are more and more live service games that WILL become unplayable (or be missing a huge part of their original experience) once the publisher / studio decides to pull the plug on the game's servers
  (See "The Crew" - a game which is a single player game but requires you to be online to play the game)
• Publishers themselves are taking literally NO action to preserve any of those experiences themselves
  (See old Destiny 1/2 Story being literally lost media because they have no preservation of it)
• Publishers keep beating down community-made mods / information about keeping either custom servers or the games themselves alive and fun to play
• Digital games have become a huge part of our culture and therefore deserve to be archived and remain playable for future generations Center for History of electronic games, Video Game History FOundation

[surreal moss]

I thought that died off

[mossy gull]

@jade scaffold I officially had the weirdest PC upgrade ever and it made me Windows even more.

So I upgraded an PC with a 2080 Ti to and an 4090.

Hardware upgrade went fine but here comes the fun part.

We tried to test drive the system and the PC pops into Windows Recovery from Windows 10.

So I decided to try to restart and it got into Windows Recovery again.

I then tried to go into Safe Mode twice, both times it failed to I told the owner to back-up his data which he did and we also found out all partitions were moved around and Windows 10 seemed to be missing.

I tried to install Windows 11, which refused to install on his old Windows drive so I thought lets put in an old 970 Evo Plus I had laying around to install Windows 11 on.

It went to full 100% and it failed, and so I tried to do it again, and it failed again.

And instead this time I let it reboot, and low and behold, it rebooted into Windows 10, I upgraded W10 Home to W10 Pro just to somewhat "repair" it, and funny it made the system faster, I installed the 4090 drivers and the system is fine.

We're sitting here like WTF just happened.

[jade scaffold]

The 5080 is fine so anything 12v is probably fine

[cinder lagoon]

Just hasn't made the news recently because of checks news eehhh the state of everything

[cinder lagoon]

it made me windows
thanks, I'll be using that from now on xD

[surreal moss]

It didn’t look like they’ve changed anything from the criticisms last year. 😦

[cerulean helm]

This Aida64 reporting the Vram usage in game. Desktop ussage right now is 828mb of Vram.
My 3080 in Skyrim, same save file in Riften was hitting 9.8GB. So again, I was bottlenecked due to how heavily modded the game is.

Also have way less texture pop in in Starfield. Use to every single time I exit a menu the background would all be low res, and then change to high res. Now it doesn't do that.

[cinder lagoon]

Tbh I just wanna see an honest attempt at preserving games -
obviously some of their ideas are very hard / stupid / impossible to press into legislature but the process has to start somewhere and this is the best shot rn imo - getting attention to it

[jade scaffold]

rest of pc is fine

got a temporary psu in

[cinder lagoon]

Nice to hear their safety mechanisms seem to be working

[cerulean helm]

So yeah I am very happy with the 4080 super. What boggles my mind is how cool it runs on air. The memory isn't going over 50c and thats with a 1000mhz overclock on it. Hotspot temp is really low to, haven't seen it go over 61c in Starfield in New Atlantis on ultra settings with DLSS turned off.

The same settings on my 3080 that was on water would have the hotspot and memory temp in to mid 70c range and the core at 62c.

Also got the core clock to almost hit 3000mhz, sits at 2995 with a +150 oc.

[sacred seal]

So whatever is derping out my windows install seems to be tied to my mechanical hard drive. If I try to do too much from the drive within a timespan it will get stuck at 100% utilization and just refuse to do anything. Smart shows the drive is fine and chkdsk doesn't seem to help, but I was wondering if there is a way in windows to "eject" the hard drive the same way you would do a usb stick to reset it without having to restart the PC

For clarity the drive does not actually seem to be in use, while task manager shows 100% utilization its trasfer rate is zero

[surreal moss]

Page file?

[sacred seal]

Pretty sure that is on my SSD, but its worth a check

Yep, it was on my ssd. Disabled it anyways just in case, I got 64gb of ram I dont expect to hit it

[sonic meadow]

If SATA hotswap is enabled in bios you will get the ability to eject internal drives the same as you would an external one. Unsure if you can reconnect them without physically unplugging it though.
Additionally... there are ways to turn off drives from within windows (command line magic), but I don't know what they are or how to do it. A friend used to (and might still) do it with his laptop to save power

[sacred seal]

Yeah, I was pretty sure there was a command for that, but for the life of me I cant get google to tell me what it is

[cinder lagoon]

In disk manager, right click the left section and select offline

[cinder lagoon]

If you completely disable it you will not get information about bluescreens

[sacred seal]

Unfortunately I cannot do it through disk manager, once the PC gets like this anything that tries to access the hard drive crashes.

[cinder lagoon]

Ohh hmm

And command line doesn't?

[sacred seal]

If it tries to access the contents of the drive it will crash

But say diskpart still works

chkdsk does not

Basically I am wondering if there is a way to safely disconnect and reconnect the drive from the system so that whatever prcoess is hogging the drive is hopefully forced to shut down

Otherwise I can't use my hard drive until I restart the PC, and that is just a bit annoying

[sonic meadow]

if you go in to resource monitor, and sort by... one of the things under [Disk] you may find what the problem process is, and then kill it with task manager

[sacred seal]

Unfortunately no dice. Whatever is hitting the drive is using it 100%, but no data is actually transmitted

So it does not show up in resource monitor

[sonic meadow]

not even when sorting by Response Time?

[sacred seal]

That is not something I have tried, that is deffinately worth looking into next time this happens. Thanks for the suggestion

[cinder lagoon]

Ohh so you lookin for this?

[mossy gull]

Nvidia blaming others except themselves.......
https://youtu.be/UlZWiLc0p80

[cinder lagoon]

Bruh 😂

[sacred seal]

Yeah, I can see the drive in diskpart and get information about it, but if I was to try to run the chkdisk command the thing just locks up

Or at least I cant once it starts acting up

And yeah, sorting by response time wont tell me what is holding my hard drive hostage

[tidal birch]

Might be good that I havent been able to buy a RTX 5080 yet. I can save up some extra money and aim to get these high capacity cards if they do exist in the future.

https://www.techradar.com/computing/gpu/rtx-5080-24gb-version-teased-by-msi-is-it-time-to-admit-that-16gb-isnt-enough-for-4k

[cinder lagoon]

have you tried the diskpart commands I sent?

[sacred seal]

Ahch, I am an idiot. Did not see the offline command which I looked at your screenshot the first time. That is probably exactly what I am looking for
The computer has been more stable since turning page file off for whatever reason, but I will be sure to try it the next time my PC crashes out.

[mossy gull]

https://youtu.be/cBeQWEtBB0k

8GB low end cards fail to run STALKER 2

[sonic meadow]

At the 4k Epic preset

[mossy gull]

Yep😃

[mossy gull]

The fact is the 6700XT, which is weaker than the 4060 Ti 8GB, can run it

[sacred seal]

At sub 30fps.

[mossy gull]

It still runs it while being 15% weaker

[sonic meadow]

"runs"

[sacred seal]

Just because something can do it, does not mean its a good tool for the job

[sonic meadow]

what this seems to be telling me is that more vram isnt needed, since the cards cant run the stuff at the settings equinox wants everything to run at anyway

[mossy gull]

Jay tries to show that a weaker card with more VRAM can do the job and a stronger card with less VRAM can't

[sonic meadow]

my car also cant tow a campervan behind it

Or if it could, it wouldn't have the power to get it out of where I live

[sacred seal]

If you have a 4060ti, you are not going to want to run Stalker 2 at 4k epic settings, which means it is a meaningless use case

[mossy gull]

But the 6700XT, which is also a 1440p card can do it

[sonic meadow]

I get the point you think you are making, but its barely one

Yes, if you crank the settings to Epic 4K (where it would be barely playable) then it doesn't work. Sure. Whatever. Who gives a fuck

It's competitor (with more vram) barely runs it at all

Should it have had more vram? Sure, is doing stupid shit proof of that? Hahahaha

[mossy gull]

I think 30fps is playable 😅

Oops, wrong graph

20 fps is somewhat playable, have done it for years in SC

[sacred seal]

20 fps is playable, but if you can turn down settings to get a boost to fps you are turning down settings.
More vram means the card costs more money. Most people don't want to spend more money on a GPU just so they can max settings on a handful of games that are well outside what is concidered reasonable for the card

If you are buying a 4060ti, you most likely dont have a 4k monitor.

So making a 4060ti cost substantially more for 100% of users just to satisfy 1% of the users makes no sense

And I am saying this as someone who runs 4k monitors with (relitively) underpowered GPUs

[balmy flicker]

my 3060 has 12gb why do the new cards have less

[mossy gull]

Exactly this

[balmy flicker]

even then say MHWilds loves V ram with some of the 4060s and other low ram cards haveing more issues than I am despite my nerfed high graphics presset

[mossy gull]

I rather have more but slower VRAM, aka 7600XT, than faster VRAM I can't even use, 4060.
In Cyberpunk 2077, 1440p max settings, the 7600XT, plays at an unplayable 15fps, the 4060 is almost at a standstill.
This is on native without DLSS or any upscaler

[balmy flicker]

bad game as an example but there are other poppulare games where you might want more than 8gb (again why does the 3060 standard have 3/2 the Vram of the 5060)

[mossy gull]

Cyberpunk and Monster Hunter Wilds suck on 1440p with 8GB VRAM

[balmy flicker]

that is my other advantage I am playing at 1080 as befits my low end card

[mossy gull]

720p 😀

[balmy flicker]

nah don't need to go that low

[sacred seal]

The 3060 was supposed to have 6gb of vram, same as the 2060. Nvidia realized too late that a 3060 6gb was a bad idea, but as they did not want to re engineer the card they had to up it to 12

[mossy gull]

I wonder what the 9060XT will have

[balmy flicker]

that is funny but it also makes it better for some games than the technicaly better cards

[runic thorn]

I've played a bit of Stalker 2 on a 2080 at 3440 x 1440. Not the highest settings though.

[mossy gull]

I played MH Wilds on 3440x1440 on thr 7600XT 16GB while another buddy with a 4060 Ti couldn't

Or well, not without DLSS performance

[runic thorn]

I kinda wish the world stopped pushing for more GPU power for a second. Make the cards smaller, less power-hungry and let the developers try to do more with what's currently available. Maybe then games would run smoothly for longer than one generation of graphics cards.

Ahh. Finally a mouse that doesn't scroll up twice for every 4 times you scroll down.

Now let's watch as this one also breaks within a year. The next one will be the cheapest wireless I can find that doesn't have even worse reviews than the expensive ones.

[cerulean helm]

So have had my 4080 super for a week, still air cooled atm. How much lower the temps are on this card vs my water blocked 3080 is crazy. Main die temp is nearly identical (about +5c hotter), hotspot temp is lower on the 4080 super, and the vram temps are massively cooler by 20+ c on air.

Very curious to see what the water block for the 4080 super will do.

[cerulean helm]

This looks interesting, a hub of sort for a LLM while multiple machines access it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2F77SXeYTc

[cerulean helm]

Water block installed on the 4080 super. No thermal paste this time. I ordered off Amazon some of that Honeywell PTM 7950 phase change stuff to see how it does. And, at first test I was not impressed at all. Stress test and gaming the gpu die and hotspot were hotter than the air cooler, by a lot. Memory temps were great. So I ruled out a bad mount with the block.

Let the gpu idle for awhile doing other stuff on the pc and about an hour later fired up a game again. This time, temps were way better. I had forgotten you needed to cycle the phase change pad to get it working.

Now temps are right where they should be, and kinda crazy too. 53c on the die with a hotspot temp of 62c, and the memory barely hit 50c.

[jade scaffold]

ptm has to go through a fair few cycles but once you got it going its fantastic

why even bother waterblocking the 4080

Unlike the 5080 it doesnt oc particularly well

[cerulean helm]

Fan noise. My pc its right to the left of me on my desk. So, gpu fans are loud at full speed. As far as OC, well my dirty oc seems to be doing fine. I have a +150 on the core and +1000 on the memory.
I am blown away how much cooler the memory is compared to my 3080. Its a 30-40 c difference/

[jade scaffold]

yea

30 serise has serious memory heat issues

[cerulean helm]

I noticed, on water I'd still hit 80c with mine. Now full tilt its 50c. Just crazy.

[jade scaffold]

the 3090 FEs memory also used to consume 130w

so like

yea it gonna be hot

[cerulean helm]

My new block also has a better backplate I noticed. More thermal pads than the 3080.

[sonic meadow]

80c is fine for memory, its got an operational range up to a bit over 100c (though its hard to actually find numbers).
though of course it wont overclock as well when "hot", but it may prefer to be at a higher temperature than you would think (like ssds)

[cerulean helm]

I know 80c was fine, but on water I was kinda surprised. I did some reading and found out the 40 series while using the same type of memory as the 30 series it was way more power efficient. Which makes sense since I am 30+c cooler.

[runic thorn]

Has anyone had this from a PSU before? Happens at higher loads. Accompanied by a bit of an electric smell in the air. I don't know if it comes across in the clip, but it's pretty much the same sound as getting zapped by static electricity.

It's a new PSU that started doing this on the second day. I have the RMA process going, but I'm curious if anyone knows what the cause would likely be.

[mossy gull]

I never experienced it myself but I would RMA it

[runic thorn]

Yup. Already swapped the old parts back in and packaged the defective PSU.

The annoying downside is that I now have an 800 € graphics card sitting as a decoration on a chair until I can get a new PSU. 🙄

Gave me just enough time to taste how smooth everything is.

[mossy gull]

What's your old PSU and new GPU?

[runic thorn]

Seasonic FOCUS+ 750 Platinum. New GPU's recommended wattage is 900 W.

PowerColor 9070 XT Red Devil is the new GPU.

[mossy gull]

Well, you'll be fine, but you have to undervolt it

[runic thorn]

Nah, I'll make do with the old card for now. It'll only be a couple days.

[mossy gull]

I have the Sapphire Nitro+ 9070XT I can tell you, it ain't using that much, it uses less power than my 7900XTX, which has a recommendation for 850w instead of 900w.

[runic thorn]

To be fair, yeah. I was following my UPS's output numbers on the first day and I don't think I went above 560 W.

[mossy gull]

I think they recommend 900w because people keep using daisy-chain cables to feed these GPUs, and towards 1KW a Daisy-chain cable can pull 288w, but not all PSUs can do that, bit it made the 7900XTX crash and get a bad rep.

While I highly advise against using daisy-chain cables and recommend to use the amount of cables the GPU has connectors for, you do you ofcoarse.

[runic thorn]

That's one part of why I don't want to try the new GPU with the old PSU. I'm not sure I have the cables without daisying.

Combined with the purchase of the PSU being 6 years old, I don't know if it was made for that kind of power draw.

[mossy gull]

People don't understand when you have 3 separate 8-pin cables you have 3 x 288w, instead of 2 x 288w, a daisy-chain doesn't suddenly double the power usage.

[mossy gull]

You would be surprised, there have been little to no innovation in the PSU market

[runic thorn]

Makes sense. Not sure what they would improve in just delivering electricity. I assume that area's been polished quite well over the last 40 years.

Barring some new miracle materials.

[sonic meadow]

compact switch mode power supplies have seen quite a few changes over the last 30 years

[runic thorn]

But how much room for improvement is left?

Not that I have any expertise in this.

[sonic meadow]

who knows

[mossy gull]

I wish the US and all other countries would switch to 240v, then all PSUs can be made half size smaller.

Like server PSU are often only 240v and are a lot smaller and still deliver 2KW or more.

[runic thorn]

I assume that would be such a massive operation that it's just not going to happen.

[sonic meadow]

servers psus are typically single voltage, rather than the multivoltage monstrosities enthusiast pcs need

most of the volume is capacitance and cooling typically though, and the consumer markets focus on "quietness" means they arent running the denser cooling arrays with high rpm (and noise) fans of server hardware

and server psus tend to be physically long, even though they might be smaller in other dimensions

[mossy gull]

Yes and no, most powerplants that create electricity deliver power in thousands if not millions of voltages, and so do power lines.
So the hardware is already there.

The only thing they have to change are the transformer buildings near houses, and even that is probably not that complicated(has no knowledge on how to change it, just an assumption), it will be a 5 year job with enough people and resources.

The advantages of higher voltage is you need a lower amperage to do the same thing, and it travels further.

This is why in the US most PSUs end at 1200w while in EU we have them go past 2KW.

[sonic meadow]

houses in the US already get 240v, nothing would need to change in the power infrastructure side of things

their 120v is actually "half" of a 240v line coming in to the house

[runic thorn]

Oh. I kinda thought the end users would be mostly 120 or whatever it is.

[mossy gull]

They just should change it all to 240v

[sonic meadow]

only a few things in US houses are 240v. drier and oven basically, the rest is using the 120v split phase. a place will usually only have one or two 240v outlets

[sonic meadow]

I dont disagree, im just talking about the technical side of what they currently have

[mossy gull]

In Europe kitchen appliances are usually 240v to 480v, depending on the house 😅

[mossy gull]

Still, with 240v you accomplish much more, I believe many companies in the US already use 240v because of the power requirements

[sonic meadow]

im aware. im not arguing for 120v

im just saying what they have. you dont need to sell me an "improvement" for a country im not even in (hence why I have been talkign from an outside reference)

[mossy gull]

Europe resident as well?

[sonic meadow]

nope

[mossy gull]

But I guess you have 240v?

[sonic meadow]

there are more places than just europe and america 😛

[mossy gull]

I know, but Asia is so damn huge and not all of Asia feels Asian to me😅

[cinder lagoon]

down under by luude starts playing

man I'm angry at myself..
was able to check out two unused M.2 (512GB Gen4 Samsung drives) from work that I wanted to use in my PC as my main games library (probs a raid0 lol) and now I can't find my M.2 to PCIe adapters...
I specifically remember ordering 4 of them, one for my rPi, three as a spare cuz you never know.
they so tiny they get lost so easily 😢

[cerulean helm]

Water block screws backed out after 4 years and leaked. Thats a new one to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-49SO7G-G1w

[cinder lagoon]

Lol

[cerulean helm]

Benchmarking the 4080 super and finally crashed in the Steel Nomad test while trying to find where the mem oc limit is. A +1750 on the memory is not doable, lol. But a +1500 passes with flying colors and even stress test runs.

[jade scaffold]

i need a bigger memory slider for the 5080

im at +2000mhz

and it does not care atal

+430 on the GPU core I recon i could get higher with lower temps

[cerulean helm]

I'm at +150 on the core so far. Haven't pushed that farther yet. I really want to crack the 3000mhz. I should now that I am on water.

[cinder lagoon]

Iirc they do not crash because the memory has ecc built in in the last couple generations but there is a point where the performance declines because of the ECC, or was that CPU memory?

[cinder lagoon]

I've seen that undervolting does wonders to raise the clocks (because the power limit is met later xD)

[cerulean helm]

Haven't tried undervolting, not sure if I want to go that far. I still haven't found the core or memory stable limit yet anyways. Just tried +250 on the core with +1500 on the memory and Steel Nomad had zero issues (not that one test is conclusive). Gonna keep pushing the core still it crashes.

Aha, spoke to soon, +300 crashes.

Ahhh, so close.
+285 on the core and +1650 on the memory.

[tidal birch]

Been very tempted to get a 5080 I have been looking at for a while at $1500 but no. I must restrain myself. That's too much over MSRP.

[jade scaffold]

Yea MSRP 5080 is good value anything over not so much

Also if you do get a 5080 OC it I'm getting +11% performance from an overclock and that's on the FEs 2 slot air cooler you could get more on a bigger cooler on on a liquid cooler I'm certain

[mossy gull]

Too early Razer
https://youtu.be/f_BwTc0UUR4

[cinder lagoon]

Lol

Never seen a brand pre-release an april fools

[mossy gull]

Exactly, but Razer did it this time

[timber barn]

I mean for some it is first already

[cerulean helm]

Yeah, but the joke will be it turns out to be a real product.

[cinder lagoon]

Rizzer skibidi was not on my bingo card

Wait aww crap I had the opportunity to prank everyone in my office today, I was last out the door xF

[sacred seal]

Depends on your timezone. For me it released exactly on April 1st

[mossy gull]

https://youtu.be/nqla6PSs4f4

Is this a 1st April joke?

[jade scaffold]

Kinda looks like the Mac pro fans fan hubs are screwed onto the housing may acquire a lot and make custom 3d printed fan enclosures for them

[jade scaffold]

technical question I need help with why is it a 6 pin what do the other pins do would it work with only pwm pins plugged in

[sonic meadow]

is there one connector for both fans, or one connector per fan?

its possible its power, and then pwm/tach for each fan

[jade scaffold]

One per fan

So there's 3 of those lil 6 pins

Front Fan Assembly Apple Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 2019 923-03327 Triple Fans if there's any specs you can find on them

The only specs I can find are that the fans them selfs are apparently 130mm wide

[sonic meadow]

looks like the 4.1 and 5.1 used non-standard wiring for their 4 pin fans. so its possible there is apple shenanigans going on

[jade scaffold]

How much extra can they really be doing to need 2 more pins

I've seen 6 pin fan headers before on a server board but I don't know what thoes do either

[sonic meadow]

could have a temp sensor. could be for extra current (those pads tend to be low-ish current)

[jade scaffold]

Yea what I'm hoping is that 4 of the pins are just the standard pwm pins then the other 2 just dont do anything important

[sonic meadow]

this is where i found that btw: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-4-1-5-1-aftermarket-fans-with-automatic-smc-control.2232167/

ground should be relatively easy to find if you have a multimeter (preferably with a continuity mode), similarly for 12v (or whatever line voltage is used). the others... may be more complex

[jade scaffold]

Interesting

I'm trying to do things the opposite way around to them though I'm trying to get the pro fans working on a normal pc honestly maybe it'd be easier to kill the fans standard circuitry and instead use my own control board

[sonic meadow]

can you see how many wires are going in to the fan itself?

they may also be colour coded (in a "standard" manner)

[jade scaffold]

I can try get a picture in their actual use case in the 2019 Mac pro I think they just are pushed against pogo pins

[sonic meadow]

I was meaning between the pads and the fan hub

and yes, that design looks to be the pads pogo pins push up against

[jade scaffold]

It's only 4 pin on the mobo

[sonic meadow]

which makes it sounds like its using 2 pads each for vin and gnd

oh, thats what you mean

uhh, might be the same as the 4.1/5.1 thing I linked above then

[jade scaffold]

Yea only 4 of the pins contact anything

So based on what you posted above could the fans themselves be made to work off of a standard computers pwm

Looking at the MacBook Pro from 2019 people say that's just using basic pwm with 6 pins but only 4 connected

[sonic meadow]

maybe? I only gave it a quick skim but people definitely got stuff working in the other direction

[jade scaffold]

Maybe I should ask on those forums

Someone there might know

[jade scaffold]

Okay so if I'm understanding the older Mac fans correctly

There's a ground pin, sense pin and a 12v pin on 3 pins

Then the fans rpm is controlled by a 4th pin with a 0V-12V signal which controls how fast it goes

So a voltage based fan controller could in theory drive these fans

Though this is only for older fans in old models

[cinder lagoon]

Guess what, serial-number locking 🥲

[jade scaffold]

Huh?

[cinder lagoon]

Either each has it's own fully fledged fan connector along side extra pins used (in the future?) for serial-number locking or it has poewr + pwm shared for all and a tach for each

[jade scaffold]

There's only 4 pins per fan on the mobo

[jade scaffold]

^^

[cinder lagoon]

There's no other reason for more than 4 pins per fan other than locking the parts to the devices serial number

[jade scaffold]

There is though

[cinder lagoon]

I mean the fan assembly might have been engineered to be used in a future product that does that

[jade scaffold]

Temp sensors for one

[cinder lagoon]

No way they put temp sensor in each fan

[jade scaffold]

They did on the old Mac pros

[cinder lagoon]

What for tho

[jade scaffold]

You can have inlet temp and the motor temp

[cinder lagoon]

Whyyy

[jade scaffold]

The same reason server fans are actively cooled

Inlet temp can be used for active ram curve optimisation you don't need to move air as fast if air is cold and for apple where being quiet is top priority temp sensors are good for that

Additionally the sheer size of the Mac pro fans necessitates quite high toque motors they are easily in excess of 60mm thick with a hub over 80mm wide

[cinder lagoon]

No why do you need to know the air temp, you need to keep the components cool, nothing else.

Put the sensors on the components

[jade scaffold]

The fan is a component motors get hot

[cinder lagoon]

Nowhere else lol

[jade scaffold]

That's why some server fans have fans for their fans

[cinder lagoon]

"some" single model that came out like a month ago

[jade scaffold]

No several server fans have expose or open motors

For the soul purpose of keeping them cool to increase their life span

Additionally as I said you can use air temperature to judge how fast a fan needs to spin

[cinder lagoon]

Yes exposed but not fan for fan like that new one haha

[jade scaffold]

it acomplishes the same thing

and even still exposed motors usually have atleast some minor geometry to guide air a bit into them

[cinder lagoon]

Overcomplicated:
component too hot? -> increase fan speed

[jade scaffold]

not nessesarilly

[cinder lagoon]

Component under acceptable temperature? -> decrease fan speed

[jade scaffold]

inlet tempurature can be used to great effect to judge what speed the fan should be running at in conjunction with a component tempurature to allow for an ideal RPM for the balence between noise and cooling

[cinder lagoon]

Ehh just adds cost

[jade scaffold]

oh no cost on my

ULTRA PREMIUM PRODUCT

the case is made of fucking 4mm thick aluminium

thoes temp sensors cost them next to nothing

[cinder lagoon]

Well not saying I'm supporting the gluttony of Apple

[jade scaffold]

the thing is its not even nessesarilly cost for nothing the temp sensors might not even be included the extra 2 pins might just be remenants of an older design

because they dont connect to the mobo

[cinder lagoon]

Or parts pairing because they are so repair friendly :)

[jade scaffold]

its not parts pairing

apple have been using 6 pins on fans for decades

and

and

the mac pro fans work on any mac pro

the 2019 ones work on the 2023 one and vice versa

[timber barn]

is there any way to get rid of that stupid discord ad?

ok, nvm found it...

[sonic meadow]

Having air inlet temperature can give you an idea of how effective your cooling can be. This can be used for automatic clock control, or letting you know if say... air conditioning had failed.
Pair it with an outlet temperature sensor and you can have a graph of cooling efficiency. This can help you discover if things like heatsinks or dust filters are blocked.
Sure, having one per fan is excessive, but at the same time... It may actually be cheaper. Means you have less concurrent SKUs, and less SKUs is better

[jade scaffold]

https://www.rellimmot.com/how-to/Mac-Fan-Pinouts/

Okay

So it seems some Mac fans ARE PWM

[mossy gull]

https://www.reddit.com/r/radeon/s/2QNYQLmppJ

[grizzled oracle]

knock on wood but for real this time i fixed my crashing issue, apparently i was pulling 3500mhz+ clocks on a card spec'd to 3010mhz boost ceiling

i guess some way some how on unknown system configs Adrenaline just does not regulate power draw at all

[grizzled oracle]

I had to find an undervolt sweet spot and do amds job for them to stay as close to factory clock as possible so it didn’t run away and trip OCP at throttle

[cerulean helm]

So, spent the evening removing all 13 Corsair ML Elite fans, 2 Commander Pros and an extra light controller. That was an exsessive amount of wiring, good grief. Installed the Corsair Nexlink fans. Now I have a total of 2 wires going to a single small hub for 13 fans.

[jade scaffold]

I hate doing fan wiring

Best choice ever ditching RGB fans

[mossy gull]

That's why I got iCue Link fans

[jade scaffold]

Just going for maximum quiet now

[mossy gull]

I have the RX Link fans, but the ones that ain't RGB

I prefer maximum pressure

[jade scaffold]

Did it send this twice for you

[mossy gull]

Pressure also can be quiet 😅

[jade scaffold]

It has for me

Currently running A12x25s

[mossy gull]

It did

[jade scaffold]

Thanks discord

[mossy gull]

Love those fans, I use to use them but got annoyed by all the wires

[jade scaffold]

It's only 1 wire per fan tbf

I have them all go into a fan controller then that goes into my mobo

[mossy gull]

Exactly, I have 1 wire for multiple fans

[jade scaffold]

You could also chain them

Though at full rpm they are quite high power lil fans

[mossy gull]

Still has the wire though, wire = less space.

If Noctua is gonna have something like the iCue Link I will go back to Noctua

[jade scaffold]

Noctua don't like proprietary standards

I guess they could include like an extra fan header on each fan then do a little double ended 4pin connector you put in between them

[sonic meadow]

time to push for an open standard then 😆

[mossy gull]

Fan connectors always been horrible in my opinion, we need a better connector, now it's the time to make a new open standard everyone can use.

[jade scaffold]

I think the lil 4 pin connector is fine

[mossy gull]

We need standardised connector placement, standardised connectors, standardised front panel connectors.
It's 2025, not 1995.

[jade scaffold]

It's simple it's more than powerful enough for normal fans

You can't plug into it the wrong way

And everyone uses it already

[mossy gull]

Except it isn't, I often get the question where to plug the fans in.

The fans being a 3-pin, rookies don't understand it fits in a 4-pin.
Same with PCIe, I know way too many people who see a full length slot and think that all full length slots are the exact same.

[mossy gull]

Because everyone uses it doesn't mean it's the best solution

[jade scaffold]

Yea but the information about the 3 pin Vs 4 pin is out there and very easy to find

Frankly reading the instructions on the fan will tell you the 3 pin goes in the 4 pin

[mossy gull]

We're in the period of time nobody reads anymore

[jade scaffold]

No we aren't

[mossy gull]

I know, but people panic and don't know what to do and don't even look on Google or YouTube

[jade scaffold]

Thoes people aren't able to be helped

They wouldn't even know what to plug the fan into

[mossy gull]

That's majority of people, they watch a video on YouTube how easy it is to build your own PC, and then gets confused once they have to do it themselves

[jade scaffold]

And you could just remove all confusion by putting the 4 pin plastic part on 3 pin fans

[jade scaffold]

It's really not

Listen if you can't figure out 3 pin fan headers go on 4 pin ones

You aren't figuring out eps Vs pcie or front panel connectors or which way round to put a CPU in

[mossy gull]

Or get a single standardised connector.

Like everything else on the motherboard.
Why don't we have 1 connector to rule them all?
Why can't I power my fans using the USB-C connector, why does it specifically need the fan header?

Why do we still have a USB3 header, you can just use the USB-C header.

Everything is just pins sticking out, labeled in a letter size of 0.2.
Manuals being used between multiple different motherboards.
So not everything's clear.

[jade scaffold]

Like genuinely if you can't figure out fan headers which are the simplest past the 24pin header pc building isn't for you lmao

[jade scaffold]

Because usb C requires a ass fuck tonne of bandwidth

It's suuuuuper complex to implement mobo side

The connectors are super expensive none locking

[mossy gull]

But a single USB-C connector can carry the entire front panel connector group, but no, the front panel has a wire for audio, USB3, USB-C and the on/of switch.

[jade scaffold]

Not nativly it can't

[mossy gull]

Yeah, you mean those pins sticking out above the RAM and beside the RAM?

[mossy gull]

Then make it so it can.
Motherboards are already overpriced, you can keep the same price and switch everything out for a general connector.

[jade scaffold]

LMAO

You don't actually think that's how that works right

You aren't that dumb I know you're not

[mossy gull]

Look, certain things need to have a standard connector, audio can go over USB-C just like video, ofcoarse it needs extra stuff but it should be possible.

Like why does the back USB-C can carry audio but the front 1 can't?

[jade scaffold]

The front one can and does

But you know where it carries it

To the fucking usb C header on the front

[mossy gull]

But why do we need separate audio cables to the motherboard then?

[sonic meadow]

and the cables are thick and dont bend worth a damn

usb3/c is a horrible thing to deal with inside a case

[mossy gull]

Which is weird because external USB-C cables are pretty thin, flexible and can carry video signals

Heck why not just use a USB-C connector, why do we need the stupid 1 that's on the inside

[sonic meadow]

thick and inflexible for internal cables. the external ones are even thicker and less flexible

the Molex KK (the fan header) is a pretty reasonable connector, massively overspecced for pc fans to be honest.
its locking, keyed, has high current handling, and basically impossible to fuck up. it taking individual wires (rather than multiple bits of twinax like modern usb) makes the cabling really easy to handle and route

[mossy gull]

I have a docking station that has a thinner cable than both the USB-C and USB3 cable inside the PC 😐

[sonic meadow]

RGB however.. I dunno which numbskull thought unkeyed .1" headers was a good idea...

what I reckon should happen is... you take the 2/3/4 pin molex KK, and extend it a pin the other side of the key. have this fifth pin be a 1-wire data channel. you have "smart" fans use that and the two power pins, and then have some way of daisy chaining the fans. maybe also give the fan the tach/pwm pins for backwards compatibility
this way you get both forwards and backwards compatibility, without really losing anything

[mossy gull]

RGB is a hell, why are there so many different connectors for that 1.
And Gigabyte, for gods sake, fix your RGB software.

[mossy gull]

Ever used Corsair Link?
Those connectors would be awesome to have for fans and RGB fans alike.
They both use the exact same connector and the non-RGB Link fans can carry RGB signals for RGB fans that come after.

While Corsair has horrible standards, their connectors are easy enough to work with, even for noobs like my brother

[sonic meadow]

I was meaning something that was compatible with the existing open fan archicture in PCs. those connectors do look pretty nice though

[mossy gull]

But what if all fans started transitioning to lets say the Link connector?
Then everyone will have the same connector and no separate RGB nonsense anymore.

[sonic meadow]

my proposal would also work for rgb

[mossy gull]

Behold, default fan to Link adapter
https://www.corsair.com/ww/en/p/custom-liquid-cooling/cx-9070014-ww/corsair-icue-link-gpu-rgb-adapter-cx-9070014-ww

[sonic meadow]

cool. and?

[mossy gull]

I mean old Corsair RGB to Link

[mossy gull]

Transition should be possible, now the rest needs to follow

Wait, who of all companies have the most open standard for fans and RGB fans and software?
Lian-Li or Corsair?

[sonic meadow]

orrrrrrrrrr, you have something that is inherently backwards and forwards compatible like I suggested.

[jade scaffold]

Neither

Their standards are both proprietary

There are 6 pin fan headers that have RGB and fan combined

[mossy gull]

Why don't we have that😐

Everywhere

[jade scaffold]

Compatible with normal 3 and 4 pins too

[sonic meadow]

the beauty of my suggestion is that... you can plug in your new daisy chainable rgb whatever the fuck fans in exactly the same place and way as the old fans, and it will work. uses a new pin off to the side that does all the control/feedback, but if that isnt present will work as a 2 pin (or 3pin if the extra is present on the cable, or pwm if the 4th too) if the data line isnt present

[mossy gull]

We need better connectors for sure

[sonic meadow]

no extra weird propietary cable suggestions, or adaptor dongles, or anything like that. forward and backward compatibility inherent in the connector

the connector is fine

the connector has a minimum rating of 7A, with a voltage rating of.. I dunno, but one random example I opened was good for 600vdc

[mossy gull]

It's not fine if people ask the question if you can plug a 3-pin fan in a 4-pin header.

[jade scaffold]

Because RGB is "new" and pc standards don't catch on easily

[sonic meadow]

and everyone and their aunt made their own rgb standard

[mossy gull]

Exactly, "new"

[mossy gull]

Alienware started it pretty much 😅

[sonic meadow]

no need to ping me with every message, half of what you are replying too isnt even really relevant to what you are saying anyway

[mossy gull]

Aye😅

[jade scaffold]

There's also 2 different RGB standards for mobos

[mossy gull]

RGB and A-RGB

Also, this looks fun
https://youtube.com/shorts/C8v72YJbm4c

I believe 1 is for RGB control per fan and the other sends the same signal to all fans

LED lights have the same thing

[jade scaffold]

Standards are hard to get adopted and a one fits all wire is just a fucking bad idea

[mossy gull]

Why is it a bad idea?
Like lets say USB-C/Thunderbolt can carry almost everything.

[sonic meadow]

usb-c is the very example for why its a bad idea

[mossy gull]

But why is it a bad idea?

[sonic meadow]

because it can* carry every thing
*see cable, and ports (both ends) for details.

if I show you a usb-a port, you know what it does. usb.
if I show you a usb-c port, you have no clue what it does

[mossy gull]

So why not make it like Thunderbolt, where it has to be able to carry everything.

[sonic meadow]

because they didnt

and thats also a horrible idea

now you need every port being able to do power, high speed data, and video.
every. single. port

even the one on your phone charger

and that makes no fucking sense

[mossy gull]

I think having a different cable for everything is horrible.
Look at HDMI, a cable, defined by the HDMI group, made it so certain devices can't fully utilise it because of certifications

[mossy gull]

I like I can charge my phone on my laptop dock when I am not using it, and beam my phone to my display.

[sonic meadow]

hdmi from the early days doesnt have electrical capability to transmit a modern high bandwidth hdmi signal. that was just something inherent in them increasing the standard over time. you cant transmit gigabit over phone cable either

[mossy gull]

No, you can carry 40 Gbps.
Although the phone is too slow for that😅

[sonic meadow]

over phone cable? you know, the untwisted unshielded single pair of wire. maybe three pairs if you get the right stuff on a reel (though that may be twisted)

[mossy gull]

My phone cable that came in the box with a USB-C to USB-C cable that was capable of 1 Gbps if that's what you're asking.

[sonic meadow]

🤦
not even slightly

these (depending on where you are)
left is BT, right is RJ11

[jade scaffold]

And if they did make it like thunderbolt you'd need a chipset the size of an epycs IOD

[mossy gull]

I mean, my external SSD ain't that fast, but reached 1 Gbps

[jade scaffold]

Which would cost literally hundreds alone

[mossy gull]

BT, the British Telecom provider?

[sonic meadow]

yes, thats actually what BT stands for in that instance

[mossy gull]

I mean, it also stands for Bluetooth 😅

But they want to make everything their own

[mossy gull]

Wait, then how can an handheld have 2 USB-C capable of carrying PCIe 4x?

[sonic meadow]

about a decade later, though realistically more like 2 decades

[jade scaffold]

That's 2 usb c ports

[mossy gull]

Just have them in pairs of 2 on the motherboard, we don't need 200 ports

[jade scaffold]

Not the fucking 10 you'd need to fulfill all the function of the interaks of a pc

40 pcie lanes dedicated to just internal Io

God forbid you wanna use them to power anything

Enjoy sub 80% efficiency on powering your cpus and GPUs and the lovely amounts of extra heat the vrms now need to be even more built to deal with

[mossy gull]

I, I, I, I have my phone's wireless 15w charger on 1 of my USB-C ports

[jade scaffold]

Then EVERY SINGLE DEVICE needs it own usb controller

[mossy gull]

More 8-pin power on the motherboard, wait, my motherboard has 2 CPU 8-pin but barely uses 100w in games, it has some headroom 😅

[jade scaffold]

Okay so now you aren't supporting the entire usb c spec

So you can avoid 48v

It's not feasible to use usb C for pc internals

[mossy gull]

You don't need to power a laptop

[sonic meadow]

its also... an insanely expensive connector for that purpose

but you wanted them all to support everything 😛

[jade scaffold]

You could do it but you'd end up with 1.2k mobos that dint do anything more than a mobo that costs 200

[mossy gull]

Well, almost all USB-C devices support 12v and 24v,
Even my SB2, a pretty old laptop, works on a 12v USB-C brick

[jade scaffold]

Your need a 4x gen 5 - 40x gen 3 chipset if you want to support the full featureset every internal device would need a usb controller the ports all have to be gold or silver plated and the usb c connectors are just plain bulky

It's just fucking stupid

[sonic meadow]

almost all*
*citation needed.
that said, all usb power providers need to support 5v 3A by the standard iirc

[jade scaffold]

2A I believe

[sonic meadow]

from some further reading, 1.5A I think

[jade scaffold]

Usb C is a good port but only for external devices

[sonic meadow]

usb-c is a solid port.. for external devices.
alas the standard has made figuring out what things support/supply a pain in ass. ie the standard has no or little labeling requirements.

[jade scaffold]

But there is exactly 0 reason why you would use a port capable of pcie X4 to run fans

That's a waste of material in every single conceivable way

[sonic meadow]

we already have a generic internal port capable of being used for anything and everything. its called pcie

and this would be a horrible application for it

[mossy gull]

My idea then would be to keep a selection of ports capable of PCIe 4x, like not everything can use that.

Lets say on some laptops you have USB4 and Thunderbolt, and the Thunderbolt ones have the Thunderbolt logo near it.

So lets say most ports are just for basic stuff like fans, audio and data, and a selection of them, maybe in a different colour or with logo beside it that it indicates it's a full fledged port capable of carrying PCIe.

That way you can have more ports both internal and external, to connect everything with.

[jade scaffold]

It's overly expensive it creates more waste it's less efficient it's just stupid tbh you'd need thicker PCBs you need way more engineering to deal with sign lntegrity you need more raw material

[jade scaffold]

Well done you have created the problem you were trying to solve

[sonic meadow]

the lack of internal ports isnt caused by a... lack of internal ports. its caused by there not being the hardware providers to run them.
your limited number of PCIe slots is caused by there being not enough pcie lanes coming from the cpu+pch, and you arent changing that without a $100 dollar PEX/pcie switch

[mossy gull]

Then make it a standard location on all motherboards, instead of having a different location per motherboard.

Oops, ping

[jade scaffold]

Your entire point of this argument was to reduce confusion when building pcs having a bunch of the same port that do wildly different things is even more confusing than 3 pin Vs 4 pin

[sonic meadow]

"why arent my fans working?"
you plugged them in to the video usb-c instead of the fan usb-c

[jade scaffold]

And also now you have a super expensive port your making do something a port at a 10th it's cost already fucking does

You confused things

[mossy gull]

I seen mATX with 1 PCIe port, they are more expensive than 1 that has more PCIe ports.
I doubt price is decided on components these days.

[jade scaffold]

Made everything more expensive and less efficient

[mossy gull]

Just like the lack of PCIe ports and USB ports motherboards have these days?

[sonic meadow]

note the difference between a $1 slot and a $100 chip

[jade scaffold]

Mobos have shit tonnes of usb on them

They usually have 2-3 gen 2. 1-2 gen 3 and 0-1 gen 3 type c

[sonic meadow]

thats a design choice on the motherboard manufacturers part. oftentimes things like this are to give a reason to spend more money on the expensive product

[jade scaffold]

Coving a mobo in a bunch of type c connectors is stupid it's expensive it solves 0 issues

Pcie slots are genuinely cheaper to produce

It also doesn't require like 2 billion external controllers

[mossy gull]

Last 4 motherboards I have held had 2 USB2, 1 used for iCue Link, other not in use.
2 USB3, where 1 is used for the front panel, the other not in use.
1 USB-C which is in use, by the front panel connector.

Why not use the front panel connector over USB-C only?.

[sonic meadow]

then you would have only one front panel usb-c port

[jade scaffold]

Yea

And half bandwidth on the usb c port

[sonic meadow]

the cables going to the front panel are just extension cables really

[mossy gull]

Yet there are USB-C hubs that have both USB3 and USB-C, so again, why do we need separate cables for the USB-C and USB3 front panel?

[sonic meadow]

yes, thats how usb hubs work. they also cost money

[jade scaffold]

Because then it SPLITS the bandwidth

[mossy gull]

Cases that cost well over 200.- don't need that excuse that it cost too much.
It's a case.

[sonic meadow]

are you being deliberately stupid?

[mossy gull]

But it already does that as some cases have 2 to 4 USB3 ports?

[jade scaffold]

It really does feel like it sometimes

[sonic meadow]

the internal usb3 header is 2 ports

just like the usb2 headers are 2 ports

[jade scaffold]

Yes because that big usb 3 header ISNT A SINGLE HEADER

It's 2 usb 3 gen 1 ports stuck to eachother

[mossy gull]

Why not have only USB-C ports?

[jade scaffold]

BRCAUSE THEIR FUCKING EXPRNSIVE AS SHIT

[sonic meadow]

they are more expensive to implement, even if only using them for usb2

[jade scaffold]

Like 4x the cost per port + you need a controller on the other end to split the signal

[mossy gull]

But more and more stuff need an adapter to USB-A 😃

[jade scaffold]

No

No they don't

Pretty much any perifferal for pc uses type A on the pc side

[mossy gull]

I have more USB-C devices than I have USB-C ports.

My external SSDs are USB-C, my phone is USB-C, my mouse charging cable is USB-C and so is my keyboard, my hub is also USB-C.
I literally had to buy USB-C to USB-A cables.

[jade scaffold]

Then get a case with a shit tonne of usb c ports

Or buy an expansion card with like 8 of them on

Or buy a hub

This is the beauty of pcs it gives you options

[sonic meadow]

remember that equinox tends to live off in her own little silo of weirdness and niche use-cases

[mossy gull]

There really isn't 1 with more than 2 USB-C on the front and the motherboards come usually 2 max USB-C ports.

[jade scaffold]

Expansion cards

They exist

Or usb hubs

Or just a little A-C adaptor you can buy a bag of like 100 of for 50 quid

[sonic meadow]

or evaluate your needs, and figure out if you actually need to have all those things connected at once

[mossy gull]

Most only have 2 of them, the rest only USB-A

[jade scaffold]

No the fuck they don't

I have one with 8 on

[sonic meadow]

the mouse for instance, surely that only needs charging a few times a year?

[jade scaffold]

Yea

And I just plug mine in sometimes when I sleep

[sonic meadow]

and is also a perfect use case for.. an A-C cable

just inherently so, theres nothing about it that needs to be type-c. it needs no data, not even usb1.1

[mossy gull]

Hm lets see.

I don't like to constantly unplug everything and some gear is working like ass in USB hubs.

All my USB-C devices include, Keyboard, flight sim gear(4 USB-C ports), 2 Streamdecks, phone cable that I also use for my mouse, 2 external SSDs, webcam and drawing display.

That's all USB-C devices I have.

[jade scaffold]

Who leaves their flight sticks plugged in I have literally NEVER seen a wired keyboard that's c-c

2 external ssds

External ssds can just go through a gen 3 type a

As can they keyboard

The flight sticks

[mossy gull]

Most Corsair keyboards these days have USB-C
It's been years they used USB-B

[jade scaffold]

The stream decks

[jade scaffold]

They literally come with a-c

[sonic meadow]

the ssds and drawing display are likely the only things that actually want to be usb3, the rest would be perfectly happy over usb2/a and usb2/3 hubs

[mossy gull]

The fact is that they're USB-C, and the included cable ain't long enough.

[jade scaffold]

Then get a C-a cable

[sonic meadow]

a keyboard is basically a 1.1 device, regardless of what plug it uses

[jade scaffold]

This is really a none issue you are just hard work for literally no reason

You need tops 3 type c ports and realistically the external SSDs will be fine on type A gen3

[mossy gull]

The SSDs can't use full speed on USB 3, like most motherboards have.

[jade scaffold]

External SSDs aren't exceeding 10GB/s

If you bought external SSDs that fast you are plainly stupid because internal SSDs would have been cheaper

[sonic meadow]

internal ssds arent as easily portable

[jade scaffold]

This is true

But

Equinox doesn't go anywhere by their own admission

And even still that's only 3usb c ports you need

[mossy gull]

Yes and no, with slow SSDs I constantly have to copy and paste entire libraries over to the 2nd system to use it properly, instead I just have fast SSDs that I can use between systems.

[jade scaffold]

You don't need a case with 40 of them

[mossy gull]

3 systems, home PC, laptop and PC at work

[jade scaffold]

Or you could just set your pcs up to have network accessible storeage

[sonic meadow]

a 2.5/5g nas would free up usb ports on all machines

[jade scaffold]

House wise that's faster you gen get out of external SSDs anyway