Grammar question

[broken onyx]

If I have a sentence in pat tense with both habe/bin and a wechselpräposition, will it always be habe when the präposition is dative and bin when the präposition is accusative?

If not, can I have an example sentence for all 4 combinations? (habe/akkusativ, bin/akkusativ, habe/dativ, bin/dativ?

[void sun]

If I have a sentence in pat tense with both habe/bin and a wechselpräposition

How can the sentence have both "habe" and "bin"?

Do you mean 2 otherwise identical sentences?

Are you maybe thinking of how certain movement verbs like "fahren" can have either "haben" or "sein" as the helping verb, depending on how they're used?

The end part is actually a lot easier to answer, than to work out what the question is, 😅

Ich jogge im Park.
Ich jogge in den Park.

Both of these are valid

Ich jogge in den Park: I start outside the park and jog into it.

Ich jogge im Park: I start inside the park and jog around inside of it, not changing my location with respect to the park.

You can take both of these and put them in Perfekt tense:

Ich bin im Park gejoggt.
Ich bin in den Park gejoggt.

Next, let's do verbs with "haben" as the helper verb:

Ich stelle das Glas auf den Tisch. (I put the glass onto the table)
Ich habe das Glas auf den Tisch gestellt.

Das Glas steht auf dem Tisch. (The glass is on the table)
Das Glas hat auf dem Tisch gestanden.

So there you have 4 sentences with:

• bin + dative (Ich bin im Park gejoggt.)
• bin + accusative (Ich bin in den Park gejoggt.)
• habe + accusative (Ich habe das Glas auf den Tisch gestellt.)
• habe + dative (Das Glas hat auf dem Tisch gestanden.)

[broken onyx]

If these two can exist, what do they mean, and what's the the difference between habe/bin und akkusatoc/dativ

[void sun]

I just explained what they mean

I don't know why you think the helping verb "haben/sein" is related to accusative vs. dative

Maybe an explanation of Wechselpräpositionen would help

This website explains it well: https://yourdailygerman.com/german-two-way-prepositions/

[broken onyx]

Iirc its bin instead of haben when its movement or change of state

And akkusativ instead of dativ when its movement or change of state

[void sun]

Are you talking about verbs of motion like "fahren", when to use "bin" versus "haben" with them for Perfekt tense?

[broken onyx]

Yeah

[void sun]

First off: not all verbs are verbs of motion

so you can't then try to combine those 2 things to say, "Therefore, if the helping verb is "sein", that means accusative, and if it's "haben", that means dative."

I've just given you examples specifically disproving that.

I gave you a sentence with a verb with "haben" as the helping verb, and the Wechselpräposition wanted accusative.
I gave you a sentence with a verb with "sein" as the helping verb, and the Wechselpräposition wanted dative.

Second: read the website

[broken onyx]

I think I phrasedmy question terribly tbh

Let me ask again

[broken onyx]

Whats the difference between these two?

[void sun]

Did you read what I wrote above?

[void sun]

picture

[void sun]

explanation

The basic idea with Wechselpräpositionen is: Are you or the object moving with respect to the location mentioned?

Ich jogge im Park = I remain inside the park the entire time. Therefore, with respect to the park, I am not moving. Dative case.
Ich jogge in den Park = I start outside the park and end inside the park. Therefore, with respect to the park, I am moving. accusative case.

If you'd read the website I linked, it also mentions how you can visualize this in terms of "crossing boundaries."

Ich jogge im Park = I don't cross the boundary of "the park", so dative.
Ich jogge in den Park = I cross the boundary of "the park", so accusative.

[broken onyx]

Also, whats tje difference between ich habe and ich bin geschwommen?

[void sun]

You're not wrong that specifically for verbs of motion, there is a connection between "haben" and "sein" and the whole "changing of location" thing.

But it's not quite as you were describing it

For verbs of motion in Perfekt, the helping verb is normally "sein". However, there are a few verbs that sometimes can also use "haben", for example "joggen, klettern, schwimmen, tauchen."

When the change of location is being focused on, you must use sein. Otherwise, you can use either "haben" or "sein" as the helping verb.

Now, what that means is

For verbs of motion:

1. When there's not a change of location thing (dative), you can use either "haben" or "sein".
2. When there is a change of location thing (accusative), you must use "sein"

As you can see, that means that it's not that "haben = dative, sein = accusative"
it's "accusative forces sein, dative can be either haben or sein"

Also, there are other verbs that aren't verbs of motion

for which these rules don't apply at all

"stellen", for example, only has "haben" as a helper verb, it never uses "sein".

[quick wigeon]

2. When there is a change of location thing (accusative), you must use "sein"
   Can you give an example of that?

[void sun]

Er ist durch den Wald gejoggt

[quick wigeon]

And basically you're saying that because it's durch den Wald that forces the verb here to use sein?

[void sun]

yeah

You can see it in the pic

[quick wigeon]

Oh, it seems in that picture it's rather talking about these specific verbs listed, not all movement verbs.

And I think you forgot the part where a movement verb being used transitively will always use haben.

Or at least didn't see it mentioned.

[void sun]

Go ahead and explain that

[quick wigeon]

Well that's all there is to it.

Any verb used transitively will use haben in Perfekt tense.

Transitive = the verb has an accusative object.

[void sun]

Er hat sie auf den Berg gefahren?
(He drove her up the mountain)

Idk that I knew that one, 😅

[quick wigeon]

Yeah, or the typical example: Er hat das Auto gefahren.

[void sun]

But I want specifically an example where there's a Wechselpräposition with accusative case, just to show that it needs to be haben, even with change of location being focused on.