when do i use "doch" and "noch" and why they are sometime used together?

[toxic dune]

:/

[waxen harbor]

doch noch (doch being emphasized) is pretty easy: you'd almost given up hope, but then it did work out, after all.

noch + negation = not yet

doch + negation = contrary to expectations, it didn't happen, after all

[toxic dune]

i see

[toxic dune]

ahaaa

dankeschön !!!

[waxen harbor]

Glad to have helped. The problem with doch is, apart from its original meaning, i.e. giving a positive answer to a negative question, it is also very frequently used as a modal particle. Have you heard of those?

[toxic dune]

oh no, I am still doing a1, I learned that doch is used to give a positive answer to a negative question but I was just confused when i saw it in the middle of a sentence

[waxen harbor]

Ah, okay. Well, in that case, maybe best leave it at that. ;)

[toxic dune]

in scenario of
"aber es ist doch erzt fünf, Da hast du doch noch viel zeit!"

we have here both doch and doch noch

[toxic dune]

Haha okay

[waxen harbor]

But it's only (no later than) 5 o'clock, so, [contrary to what you seem to think = doch] you still have lots of time.

[toxic dune]

oh interesting

tho, can i consider doch to mean "only" always when it is in the middle of a sentence?

[waxen harbor]

No, no. Look again. ;) The "only/no later than" in the first bit refers to "erst" (which is another very useful, and frequently used but difficult-to-master German word).

[toxic dune]

oh sorry i got confused

[waxen harbor]

When "doch" appears randomly in the middle of a sentence, best ignore it. In all likelihood, it's just a modal particle, i.e. a kind of filler word used to "flavour" the sentence, i.e. to denote some kind of feeling (irritation, impatience, encouragement, softening of demands - take your pick).

@toxic dune

[toxic dune]

ah it is something like Da and denn then

well, I guess Haha

[waxen harbor]

Exactly. You just have to keep in mind that almost all of those "filler" words also have at least one "substantial" meaning. So, the problem is more in finding out when to ignore them as modal particles, and when to pay attention to them. ;)

[toxic dune]

Yeah I see, We don't really have "filler" words in arabic so it is kinda hard to get around them

Hopefully I will get the hang of it by time

Anyways, Thank you so much really.
I really appreciate the help and clear explanation !
God bless you

[waxen harbor]

You're very welcome!

[toxic dune]

@waxen harbor hello, I have one more question regarding the use of "noch" if you don't mind :D

In this convo., I can't really understand the use of noch

it doesn't mean "still" here no?

[waxen harbor]

Well... it kind of does, I'd say. heute noch/noch heute -> it's as if you're looking at a to-do list headed 'things I still need to do today'. If your boss tells you "Bitte machen Sie das heute noch fertig", it means "Please get it done before/by the end of the day" - worst case scenario: you can't go home until you've done this. Does that help?

@toxic dune

[toxic dune]

oh so it is like saying "What did you do today still", and still kidna means "as well" ?

[waxen harbor]

Was machst du heute noch? ~ What are your plans for the rest of the day?

[toxic dune]

Ich studiere Deutsch 🥲