vital quartz
obviously nothing impossible and it probably wouldnt be perfect, maybe upsetting balancing going up or down, but just a bit to help longer lta builds.
I think i'd make more sense to go this route- LTA builds cant control these axis of movement, they are still susceptible to being unstable via thrusters, etc.
it would open up more designs other than just brick or brick with extra steps, if it makes lta broken, just nerf it afterward in lift or amps or something.
i think you'd have some more viable tanky lta bots too, i feel as though being somewhat heavy is a major disadvantage when lta is so finnicky under damage, especially without gyros and rudders.
it also takes helium like ages long to get rid of wobble-energy its like terrible. Like 30 seconds you'l still be wobbling a bit.
Like this is a realistic use of helium imo, its somewhat spread out, yes theres extra weight to the sides but if you want decent looking bots this cant wobble forever. Aswell, some autoleveling just a bit where helium would slowly inflate/deflate to try to level you out flat would be really useful for making it just feel better. Nothing crazy plus building to a perfect balance still means you'l be more balanced under damaged.
dusk raptor
I'd rather just add rotor blades, they'd have some inherent gyroscopic effect, and some gimble to allow them to self right you
vital quartz
LTA designs look good though, I just haven't really seen many other designs of them as i think most people dont like using them.
i reason, its just a tad too unrefined.
halcyon relic
I think better gyros might be a solution.
Wait... What if we gave this weak passive effect to gyros while keeping their manual stabilization?
vital quartz
well, LTA is missing what gyros did previously provide them.
cinder sigil
I still think adding passive gyros + passive helium (alongside the current ones, not replacing them) would help a lot.
torpid depot
I'd rather just add rotor blades, they'd have some inherent gyroscopic effect, a...
I think rotor blades combined with LTA is the optimal way of balancing helicopters
That way you don't drop like a brick if your rotor(s) get shot off, you'll slowly drift down. You can also add wings to glide after getting shot, or thrusters or hovers, even wheels. Lots of options to control the damage and making low rotor count helicopters feel good to use
dusk raptor
Yeah I wouldn't want rotors to necessarily be lift providers as much as they'd be auto stabilizers. They would provide lift obviously and you could build a bot that only uses rotors for lift but they'd basically just be the air version of hovers in that whenever you let go of the controls, they would react automatically to cancel any momentum and level you out
More expensive, larger and therefore easier to target, and less efficient stability/lift wise than wings, but with the advantage of working even when you aren't moving
elfin terrace
Here to revive this thread.
I have always liked the way that LTA feels in Procelio and have built many of my flyers using it. In my mind, and I think the dev's minds, it's meant to be a more robust alternative to wings. However, despite the imagined tankiness, it rarely plays this way.
I understand that the blocks themselves are tanky. But block health and bot survivability are two entirely different things, as we all know. Currently, LTA is a cruel mistress. It's simple enough to build an LTA bot through trial-and-error. Making sure everything works and you have a controllable, maneuverable bot. But, like with what wings suffered early on, there's some extreme glass cannon syndrome.
Even after placing copious numbers of gyroscopes on my LTA bots, their stability is iffy at best. Once damage is done and the inherent balance in the weight or thrust distribution of an LTA-dependent flyer is upset, any small force will have devastating effects on bot controllability, and I find myself simply barreling around the air with a bot at 80%. No reasonable amount of gyros accounts for this, as far as I can tell.
It's possible I'm simply building my bots wrong. But I have a lot of experience building flyers, and in my opinion, LTA should not shoehorn us into engineering on eggshells. I back Pmuzycki's suggestion that LTA be given some of its own stabilization so the post-damage wobble isn't so disabling. It truly makes it impossible to feel like the proposed "tanks of the sky" when one rail shot will send my zeppelin into an aerial hula for an entire minute while I get peppered with fire, unable to even aim my weapons due to the shake.
As far as I recall, devs envisioned LTA enabling sky tanks with loiter capability. I imagine this: due to their inclination towards ground-facing weight distribution, armoring the bottom of an LTA ship is more viable, making them more threatening to ground units.
The presence of an LTA bot in the sky should, then, be a threat to ground units. I don't see an issue with susceptibility to more maneuverable air units- their purpose is air superiority anyways. But again, it's impossible to 1. have this presence and 2. feel like you have this presence, or even feel like an LTA has this presence.
Secondarily, if one uses LTA as a balancing medium for hybrid movement bots like drones and planes, they can sometimes lose control for seemingly no reason. It's hard not to feel like a plaything when your LTA blocks start turning you into a mobile in the sky.
I will say that given recent updates, LTA gameplay has improved! I lost every game in today's playsession, but I had a ton of fun doing it. And my LTA bot was hanging in there against winged bombers. But I still struggled when I took damage, and couldn't any longer control my bot or even deal meaningful damage because of the spin. I again understand that this can potentially be accounted for by building around it, but I don't think it should be such a big issue.
The LTA bot I used in today's playsession has a tail with four delta rudders to assist in maneuvering and stability. Upon loss of this (admittedly squishy) addition, it becomes supremely difficult to control. I will of course continue experimenting, but I just think it should be kept in mind if we want true zeppelins to ever be a viable playstyle.
TL;DR: I agree with Pmuzy because every LTA bot I have made turns into a dreidel when hit with rail or slightly damaged.
cinder sigil
Frankly every bot without a vertical rudder at the moment has serious issues with spinning at the moment; there is just virtually zero rotational drag without one. It's most noticeable with LTA but I'd really like stuff to not spin forever without rudders just in general, even if the baseline is really low like a quarter of one rudder or something.
vital quartz
lta likes to wobble on pretty wide and should be stable designs if it just get unsettled the slightest bit, without any additional thrust or movement.
and then add damage into the mix idk I want sky tanks as lta should be but its too finnicky and too fragile IMHO
like imo, get them fun and a little more stable so they feel practical and if they are broken, at that point reduce their abiltiy to change directions up and down, increase drag (lower top speed) or increase their amp cost / reduce their lift.
solid stump
imo if LTA users need more self balancing, it can be a new part (passive gyro or reaction wheel) that dedicated to do this, instead of add self balancing directly to LTA parts
vital quartz
I don't see why LTA can't work reasonably on its own. Understandable, i'd still want a passive gyro/reaction wheel but i still see no problem with just making lta feel more like other parts
the different rates in expansion on helium already aid in its instability- if your helium is aysmetric in regards to its sizes along your bot that causes tilt while moving up/down
helium is a dumb dumb part while many other parts have way more assistances than that
solid stump
add this to current LTA parts means there will be no way to strip this from it, effectively converting it to a copter's rotator, which is devastating for some of exists designs like light drones that aim high maneuverability without something drag them from turn
just let the only job of LTA is provide lift, let other parts do balancing
vital quartz
I personally wouldn't be against static LTA in this regard then, or dumb lta aswell. I think the intention was always to have LTA bots be the copter replacement anyhow.
solid stump
there are two types of LTA usage:
and then we should have an active gyro for the airship usage.
torpid depot
I just want copter blades
Much cooler, can gain the self righting and other improvements, LTA can keep the dumb lift and space efficiency
cinder sigil
Copter blades would definitely be cool yeah.
Even aside from those though I'd love to see static LTA and just general rotational stability improvements for bots overall though as it's something which has been missing for a long time IMO.
torpid depot
Rotational stability is definitely needed
I was playing a plane for the tail end of the play test this week and hated snagging little bits of geometry since it put me in a horrible uncontrollable roll for half the map
vital quartz
Im not even adding thrust into the scenario
heres LTA just moving up and down and generally existing
of course this will vary bot to bot but this restricts designs phenomenally
vital quartz
there are two types of LTA usage:
* an airship with LTA on top, and a hanger bay...
why even have LTA inflate if its for 6DOF robots? That part is just as annoying as then when you try and pitch up or down the helium inflates up and down aswell.
atp i think it'd really make sense to have two heliums i'd be well in favour of a smart blimp style helium and a static helium. even a static helium could try and inflate to keep you not quite as lopsided lift wise, even while not righting you.
i think the applications would be different enough to justify it.
solid stump
why even have LTA inflate if its for 6DOF robots? That part is just as annoying ...
that is because you bind pitch up/down to the same input as move up/down
bind them different keys, and this problem solved
this isn't related to static LTA, your issue is just need an LTA for airship usage that make them keep 0° pitch and 0° roll
vital quartz
i suppose it could go that way