#Remove or otherwise handle the "non-gamedev memes" channel differently

107 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

drowsy sandal
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While funny to those in the know, I don't know if I like the snide rudeness of the joke channel. Especially for newer users, it could come off as mockery or even insulting.

I'm not saying "pls give memes SDVpufferpleading", on the contrary I agree with the reason they aren't allowed here, but a bait-and-switch for an otherwise excited new user probably doesn't give them the best impression of the server or its community/moderation.

The stated reason for removing memes is that the cultural divide in the server means that not everyone will get the joke, and/or be put off by it. Which is what I feel happens with the fake meme channel by itself. Of course the difference is that it isn't straight-up offensive, I understand that, but the idea still exists.

I dunno, just a thought I had after reading the suggestions discourse from the other day. Was thinking that, if the joke channel didn't contribute to that situation, it probably didn't help.

glossy linden
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i think removing it would open the door for more people sending non-gamedev memes into other channels, so i like the idea of having a read only #non-gamedev-memes . i have no qualms with making the message different though, it could for example be the same explanation as the pin in #gamedev-memes

fading moon
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personally I find it a funny joke, but that only reinforces your point

drowsy sandal
elfin smelt
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Maybe it could be named to "why there is no non-gamedev memes" and include an explaination of why?

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if it needs to be changed at all tbh

worthy panther
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I think it'd be a good idea to write these kinds of thing very clearly, even if it's at the expense of light heartedness, because otherwise it's ambiguous for people who take things very literally, and hard to comprehend for people whose English isn't very good.

drowsy sandal
worthy panther
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Absolutely! It's not even a criticism, it's just a fact that quite a lot of people around here will read things and interpret in some very specific way if it's not inherently clear.

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I also feel that way about the other channels which have slightly too light-hearted descriptions, like the shaders and physics channels.

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Neither of them really explain the scope of what those channels cover.

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So you get visual shaders people posting in visual scripting because they think the shaders channel isn't for them, etc.

elfin smelt
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it'd also give the mods a channel they can point to with a very detailed explaination instead of having to explain it eveyr time it's brought up

glossy linden
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i think you misunderstood the issue being brought up here. the issue at hand is that the only message in #non-gamedev-memes is a cheeky "no" instead of perhaps an explanation why memes are not allowed (like the pin in #gamedev-memes)

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changing that message or removing the channel isn't making it more or less social, imo

worthy panther
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Well, are you representative of every user?

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Do you have limited English skills?

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It does come up fairly often.

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No, I'm saying, if you don't have the problem, maybe you're not seeing that there is a problem.

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Actually posting memes into channels happens fairly often, too.

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No, no, I'm not saying you have limited English skills.

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I'm saying that because you clearly don't have limited English skills, you're overlooking the point of view of people who do.

drowsy sandal
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You seem like you're coming into this a bit hot, friend. It's a simple discussion.

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I do take minor issue with "not a valid claim" but ok

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Your opinion is that my opinion is invalid, that's not great

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Then forget I said anything, I guess.

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Apparently my claim is too invalid for you, so you have to jump down my throat.

worthy panther
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I’m just coming at this from the point of view of having moderated big IRC channels for years, and my view is just that clarity is more useful than in-jokes.

rotund chasm
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If nothing else it's a bit odd that the explanation is in #gamedev-memes' pins rather than in #non-gamedev-memes

drowsy sandal
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Whatever. I'm backing off before I get too hot.

fading moon
faint vortex
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I agree jokes are less and less useful and interesting the more a community grows, unfortunately

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There's a pinned message I wrote in #gamedev-memes that explains the reasons, I could dust it up, write it a bit better, and put it in #non-gamedev-memes, as well as change the channel's name

glossy linden
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that sounds good to me

rotund chasm
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That would be nice

faint vortex
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Idea for later: how about an FAQ section with channels serving as questions? A forum with threads would be better, but not as discoverable/linkable, and they get archived after a while

glossy linden
fading moon
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the real loss is the loss of the proof that gdsad existed

image.png
faint vortex
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I'll edit the message, the reactions will stay

fading moon
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all those emojis will be lost in time, like [coughs] tears in rain...

rotund chasm
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and the gd fire one will forever be in purgatory joking

drowsy sandal
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I'm sorry I got a bit hot there, guys. I shouldn't have engaged.

faint vortex
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all good

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Ok, message:

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We only allow
🇬 🇦 🇲 🇪 🇩 🇪 🇻
memes

in the #gamedev-memes channel

What is allowed?

Ideally, memes about the difficulties or idiosyncracies of making games.

Generally programming, development, or linux/windows memes are allowed.

What is not allowed?

Everything else!

The general rules of the server apply:

The memes should be kids friendly, not racist, sexist, or otherwise mocking or belittling a minority.
Make sure you don't post memes that mock tools other people are using.

Specifically, do not under any circumstance post memes about how great Godot is and how Unity or Unreal sucks.

Why Only Dev Memes?

The reason why we restrict it to "gamedev" is because generally, memes are likely to have some underlying cultural significance (racist/militarist/sexist undertones) that may not be what the poster intends. That stuff is often lost on people who aren't victim of it, and for them it's "just a joke", which makes explaining the intricacies difficult and hard labor (even more so if you count the emotional toll to explain why something gives you pain, while people push back).

It's often met with a lot of resistance because people don't like to be told they've done A Bad Thing, so instead of "oops, I didn't know, sorry I'll remove it", most people react very badly. They often end up doubling down and creating even more pain for everyone (themselves included, because being in this defensive position is stressful).

In turns, this attracts more unknowing people to intervene with "it's just a joke" and creates tension for a ton of people.

All of this assumes good intent of course, because the poster could also be dog whistling and using plausible deniability to hide their intent.

Instead of explaining to every non-minority or kid or naive person (or dog whistling sealion) why their meme is inappropriate, we decided to blanket ban them.

Programming memes are safe-ish and rely on a shared culture where we mostly hold the same values.

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if anyone has comments, correction, amusing anecdotes, go ahead

glossy linden
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that's too long imo. i think it should be able to fit on one screen

faint vortex
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XanGPT, can you summarize this in 2 words or less?

Of course! Here's your summary:

"no"

drowsy sandal
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I think the lengthy description is good, personally. Especially for a community of, y'no, game developers. We tend to want to know the reasons behind things.

faint vortex
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I can reduce it a bit, but not right now coz I gotta get back to work

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If someone wants to give it a shot go ahead

rotund chasm
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Maybe format the allowed and not allowed similar to the rules channel?

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that would reduce the vertical space taken by a bunch already

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e.g.

✅ ALLOWED:

  • Memes about the difficulties or idiosyncracies of making games
  • Memes about general development or Linux/Windows

📛 NOT ALLOWED:

  • Server rule breaking memes
  • Memes that are non kid friendly, racist, sexist, or otherwise mocking or belittling a minority
  • Memes mocking tools other people are using, especially not about how great Godot is and how Unity or Unreal sucks.
  • Anything else not mentioned in the allowed section
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or something along those lines

drowsy sandal
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I would put "anything not gamedev-related" in the "NOT ALLOWED" section, at the top.

rotund chasm
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fair, I was just making a mockup

tired mortar
faint vortex
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But people ask for the explanation all the time, I think it's important to have

drowsy sandal
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I agree with xan, like I said above game developers tend to want to know why a given system is in place. It's the fundamental curiosity that comes with the profession. Having that explanation handy and on display like that not only fulfills that curiosity for those that express it, but will also cut down on the "but y tho" questions. Y'no, it'll do what a signpost is supposed to do - tell someone some information so that a person doesn't have to.

And like, it's a single post in a locked text channel, having a long explanation won't hurt anyone.

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Also doesn't hurt that transparency in a mod ruling is usually a good look on a staff team, which gives newer users more confidence in the staff here, even if not consciously.

cyan bobcat
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all 3 issues could be solved with a single role

rotund chasm
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  1. It was already said that memes will never be a thing here
  2. That poll permission doesn't exist, I checked earlier
cyan bobcat
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it does exist

rotund chasm
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If it does it did not exist for a long time

cyan bobcat
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people should use the search feature in rolls

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it is there with private threads

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private threads could be a way for admins to see tickets for support

rotund chasm
cyan bobcat
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update your discord client

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it is not on the older client versions nor the old mobile UI

rotund chasm
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I already updated it

cyan bobcat
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I am on the flatpak which updates after apt packages

rotund chasm
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What does that matter if the latest update I installed a few minutes ago doesn't have it

cyan bobcat
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Android did not update until I did a reinstall

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Flatpak

image.png
rotund chasm
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App version 226.15

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So by all means it should be there if it was

cyan bobcat
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I think having less bullet points is nicer

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no need to always remind users to read rules within the rules

unreal maple
# cyan bobcat update your discord client

This is not related to the client. Sure the client needs to be up to date. But more importantly, the server must have the feature. Discord usually does a partial roll out first to see if everything works as expected, so only some servers get access to new features. Then they unlock it for more and more servers over time until it's enabled for all.
So we have to wait until it is available for us.

cyan bobcat
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gotcha

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I thought it already rolled out

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it is weird how users have access to polls in some areas, but I can't access them here

rotund chasm
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The poll feature has for most servers and people but apparently not the permission

cyan bobcat
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the way that I can't access poles here implied that the feature already rolled out

delicate crag
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Lets not get off topic here. Previously there was not a permission for polls specifically, now there is. Hooray.
We have added those permissions into our channels etc. Move on from the conversation of poll permissions now and stick to the handling of non-gamedev memes

drowsy sandal
# cyan bobcat I did make a now deleted thread on this I like this response but `` > * Anything...

The question of this thread isn't "should we allow memes here?". The question is "is there a better way to tell people that memes aren't allowed here?". It has already been clarified, over and over again, that there will be NO non-gamedev-related memes, period. And frankly, I'm kind of bewildered by the constant insistence that this rule be amended or repealed. Discord servers aren't democracies, and shouldn't be treated as such.

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The reason I made this post is that a flat "no" in a channel that otherwise looks legitimate comes off as rude. And in the (more or less) official community space for the Godot Engine, I believe the standards for presentation to the public should sit higher than that.

elfin smelt
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It also would allow the mods to just post a link to that channel instead of needing to type out a long response explaining why there's no meme channel.
Sort of like having a bot command to paste the explaination, but it takes up less room.

worthy panther
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That's exactly what the #engine channel does, as it happens.

vague ingot
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👋 perhaps rules can be put in spoiler, just to keep the original humor?

elfin smelt
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Or like a "Short answer: No. Long answer: [insert detailed and full explaination]"

delicate crag
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There's a possibility we could add a /memes command to thee bat that would give a little bit of text about what memes are allowed, where, and why general memes are not allowed. If we did that and replaced the non-dev-mems channel teext with that bot message do you think that would satisfy your concern?

faint vortex
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I don't think so, because then you have to either tell people to write that (if the bot sends an "only for you" kind of message), and that can be complicated, or you have to do it, and then it's a lot of text in the channel. It also invites further conversation, which we don't want

fallow vault
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TBH it would be a nice thing to have in the bot for a couple of rules that are often broken: a command that tells in a few words (I agree, it shouldn't be more than a short line of text) that something is not allowed and link to the right section in #rules

elfin smelt
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Between having to say "hey, type /meme" to someone and hoping they type it, vs being able to just link #why-theres-no-meme-channel and letting them read a well explained document, I kinda feel like there's an added benefit to the latter, as there's a larger chance that they'll stumble upon the channel naturally, whereas the first option will require someone else to let them know every time someone is curious.

drowsy sandal
vague ingot
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It's not like the "no" is targeting a specific group of people that end up being the butt of the joke

vague ingot
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But anyway the argument isn't "it's right or wrong to have it". The argument is "do people care more about the joke being off putting for some, or to have other people have a silly giggle otherwise". I think with the size and reach of this place we should just strive to be as friendly as possible