#Rules & Questions

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

normal axle
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Yes, we use 🚪 across the server to signify "do this and get instabanned"

normal axle
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no, any revenue means payment. Free means just free

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If you have ads, then you need to pay people or give them revenue share

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"free" is if you do a gamejam with some people for example

coarse blade
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Why are bounties included in the don't? If I wanted to offer a bug bounty for fixing specific issue on Godot issue tracker, is that not allowed here?

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Could we also add a UI/UX tag?

normal axle
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Speculative works are way too easy to make unethical, so we do not accept them. Work should always be paid, regardless of outcome. Speculative works like bounties allow the bounty giver to make 50 people work, get a best outcome, and pay only 1 (or even say the work wasn't satisfactory and pay none).

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It's an unethical way to propose work (not judging you, not everyone has thought about those things).

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A bug bounty can just as easily be "I'll pay $N for a person who fixes this bug", with pre-coordinated agreement on how the payment will be made and how, without having X people working for nothing because someone beat them to the punch, and without the person taking the job suddenly discovering the job is much bigger than expected and being unable to renegotiate.

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If you look at initiatives like BountyHunter, people at least publicly disclose interest and that they're working on things, so other people don't try to apply to it too, which mitigates the exploitation problem.

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I added an UI/UX tag

normal axle
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It's borderline, and I'd rather not encourage this here. It'd require strong moderation and this is only a cork board.
The difference with a job offer is that you work without being guaranteed a payment.
Job offers that test people and don't pay them are similarly unethical in nature

coarse blade
normal axle
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Yes, they're fine, these are offers of collaboration to learn together. We haven't provided a venue for that kind of thing, we probably should

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Either a tag, or a different board

coarse blade
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"revshare - This is a collaboration project and if we make money, we'll share it with everyone or we're just making a game for fun
"
Just noticed the second part of the revshare definition. I think we should have a separate tag that specific this is not a commercial venture

normal axle
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The issue with starting a collab on a non-commercial basis is that not agreeing on rights can lead to feuds down the line.
Say you meet someone, and you make a gamejam. No agreement. The game turns out pretty neat! You'd like to continue it, but your partner doesn't want... with you. They liked what you did together, but not so much working with you. Or, the game is cool, and you want to make it into an RPG, while your partner thinks it's stupid, and it should be expanded as a rogue-like, and you're not agreeing.
These situations often lead to things like "well I was the one who implemented everything, so it's my game" or "well no, I designed the main char and that's where all the charm is, so it's my game"

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Any collaboration without clarification of tasks and rights is a fragile one that leads to three possible outcomes:

  1. failure (the jam wasn't good)
  2. feud (the jam was good, but you didn't really agree on clear terms and now you're fighting)
  3. continuation (the jam was good, and you can now agree to continue)

3 is ideal, but 1 and 2 are far, far more likely

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Therefore, any collab, no matter how inconsequential, should fall under revshare, to protect at least minimally all parties involved, by clarifying from the start that whatever gets made is collaborative, and no one can advance without the other's approval.

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At worst, the idea dies, but no one gets to take it and continue on their own.

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So "not commercial venture" is "revshare"

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Just a revenue share without (current) plans for any revenue

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Does that make sense?

coarse blade
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Revshare is a payment scheme, not a license/ownership agreement. Forcing ownership agreement is very weird to do imo, and should be left up to people working on the project.

In summary, marking a project as revshare does not mean the poster has to give away rights, which is why we should still have payment type tags of: paid, revshare, non commercial, and just add a note to the rules stating people should discuss ownership amongst themselves.

normal axle
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you're correct, revshare is not a license agreement, but forcing licensing agreements would really be a thing we can't do.
a tag isn't binding; revshare expresses the intent well enough to help somewhat sort out potential disputes, which is all we can cater for.
We cannot and will not teach people law, or force people into specific schemes. We cannot vet works, or agreements, nor do we have any will to do it.

Our responsibility is an ethical one and aims to give vulnerable people who wouldn't sign agreement, and who'd get strong-armed by more unscrupulous collaborators or employers some ammunition in dispute negotiation, by making at least intent clear with a tag. That at least removes the "I didn't specify" excuse from the strong-arming party.

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The tags are not attempting to be an exhaustive or binding description of all the possible agreements that may be passed between two parties.

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All agreements eventually boil down to who can profit from revenue, now or in the future, from exploiting the work, so "revshare" covers the most ground in that regard.
"non commercial" isn't a good tag, because work that is non-commercial now may become commercial in the future, when one party decides to take it forward. So it doesn't accomplish the goal of protecting anyone; it may be good nomenclature, but this isn't a concern.

normal axle
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Yes, but if you have some idea how things work, then you don't need the flimsy protection anyway

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We're just trying to give a minimal defense to naive people who are getting started, that's all.

silver tide
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Hey @normal axle . What's the rule about "exposure" mean? I don't understand that one.

normal axle
# silver tide Hey <@106687092356034560> . What's the rule about "exposure" mean? I don't under...

Some people propose something like:

do X for me, and in return you'll get exposure

Exposure is not a method of payment, so it's forbidden, same as other forms of non-payment, such as

do X for me, and you'll have my gratitude
or
do X for me, and in return you'll get 500 zombas from my zomba stash

"exposure" is specifically mentioned here because it's a recurrent theme with exploitative people, who think their meaningless idea is so important that people should just be content to work for free for them, "for exposure"

It's a mocking/funny way to refer to that, but also, a way to weed off those exploitative people outright, as anyone who would propose this seriously shouldn't be allowed near a job posting anywhere in the world.

(I say exploitative, but it could also be naive kids)

Here's a Twitter account dedicated to mocking people who ask for that: https://twitter.com/forexposure_txt

silver tide
lyric raptor
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Is there a place in the discord to get a super rough estimate for how much a potential piece of work might cost? I'm looking at eventually (6-12 months from now) engaging someone to take my hobby MVP and implement a specific network model but I wouldn't want to post to the job board without understanding what a reasonable amount of effort hours and rate would be.

normal axle
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There isn't really a place in the world for that. It is going to depend on time and expertise needed. You can get a rough, very rough estimate for time by asking people around. You'll get a range that will vary from -200% to + 200%, but it's still at least something.

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Time can be kind of directly converted into money, at regular hourly rate. That rate depends on the country, but in general, it's accepted that anything under $20 is not a living wage anywhere in the world, even though you totally can find people willing to work for $3 an hour in poor countries, because they have no choice.

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Senior wages in developed countries go from $60/h minimum to about $200/h

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So as you see, there's a huge variance...

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You can also try to look for similar products as what you're trying to develop and try to estiguess what they paid. You can look at their development time, team size, hiring announcements, etc

lyric raptor
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Okay thanks 🙂

night idol
# normal axle Senior wages in developed countries go from $60/h minimum to about $200/h

Senior wages can start at about AUD$35 an hour, 60 dollars an hour is a ludicrous wage bud, I am a dairy farm manager in Gippsland AUS, so I know wages very well as i decide the wages of staff, and my staff are payed very well, an entry level position gets about AUD$25 an hour. But maybe you are in a country with a low currency? IDK, but even 35 an hour in the US is a significant hourly wage for any job, just thought i'd help you out cos might have read about wages wrong somewhere, also happy new year.

normal axle
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I have been in the industry for 20 years and have worked all over the world. Thank you, but I know what I am saying is correct.

But, I don't need to make an appeal to authority like you, the numbers are widely available.

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Maybe wages start at $35, but $60 is not ludicrous it's an average for seniors

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The average wage per hour in Australia is $43, so your employees are below average. That cannot be considered "well paid" or "very well paid" by any objective standard.

night idol
normal axle
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None of those things reference "seniors"

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Which is the type of worker I referenced in the primary sentence you responded to

night idol
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No offense just having a calm debate btw, but where you getting your info?

normal axle
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I literally linked 3 sources, which together compile more than a few thousands salaries. You can check them.
But also, I've been working in this industry for over 25 years, and hired people all over the world. I led companies in both Europe, Middle East, and USA. I've hired people remotely from everywhere. I've worked as a hiring consultant.

But again, what is this question when I literally completely linked the sources above?
And why do you link something unrelated, that doesn't even reference the type of work I was talking about?

night idol
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Can I ask some companies you have benn affiliated with? ☺️

normal axle
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Next time, before you rush to show how smart you are by contradicting actual info with falsehoods, at least if you're not smug and condescending about it, peeps might want to actually engage with you in good faith.

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But as you are, I think you're just a shitty boss who is trying to make themselves feel good about underpaying employees. I'm sorry I couldn't provide that feeling.

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So you do not have my ear or respect, you've demonstrated that you argue in bad faith and are more interested in winning

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Have a day!

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Bye

night idol
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Good day to you too 😃

normal axle
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Sure sure. I can see how willing you are to listen. By the way you were again trying to invoke appeal to authority in the face of actual facts. It's really low and slimy.

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I could be no one, it doesn't change the facts

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Anyway, no respect for people like you at all. Have a good stay as a user, do not expect me to waste oxygen with the likes of you though

night idol
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Also please try to get along we are all people and I am still interested in your pov

normal axle
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Not me in yours. You've demonstrated being conceited, smug, interested, unwilling to face the facts, and arguing in bad faith, in this very short interaction. You're completely a waste of my time

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If you demonstrate the opposite, I'll be willing to discuss again

night idol
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I'm sorry you are just rude

normal axle
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No, I'm honest

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I'm not insulting you, I'm telling you what your interactions are

night idol
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It's not fair to say my way or the highway

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And I am interested in both sides

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U seem 2 say U r right no matter what

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We will both be wrong at some point in our lives

normal axle
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That's not at all what this is.
You were smug and condescending from the start, to contradict me on facts = smug
Then when presented with actual facts, you tried appealing to authority; then you tried undermining my point by questioning my authority, instead of facing the facts or engaging with them = dishonest
Then you presented unrelated facts = arguing in bad faith

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I am perfectly ok with you disagreeing

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I am not ok with dishonesty, that's all

night idol
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And what do you mean appealing to authority??? Plz explain

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Thx in advance

normal axle
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"appealing to authority" is when you go "but who are you, what are your credentials" to question someone's statements.
Or when you go "I say this because I have a lot of experience"

night idol
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Do you mean you have authority over me?

normal axle
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It's bad, because there's no way to verify it, but also, you could be a boss for 50 years and still be wrong

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It's doubly bad in the face of actual numbers

night idol
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I am confused but it's probably my fault

normal axle
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It doesn't matter who has experience

night idol
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Yea that's right, it's about talking

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We are all equals and I wanted to debate you thoughts cos in my many years of experience I have never heard of wages so high

normal axle
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Even if I had 0 experience, I provided you with 3 links to recognized sources.
You could say:

  1. the sources are wrong
  2. the sources are misleading
  3. the sources are correct, but they do not take into account factors A, B, C

But when you do not engage with the sources at all, and your question is "who are you, and how do you know this", this is trying to undermine the point by calling to my lack of experience

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That is a dishonest argumentative technique

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It doesn't have to do with the facts, and is trying to emotionally "win" the argument

night idol
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Ok let me read the docs that U linked

normal axle
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If that wasn't your intention, then I'm sorry for calling you out on it

night idol
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Also I saw. U r a mod, it's not easy is it?

normal axle
night idol
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I am a mod on a couple servers, this is my alt account

normal axle
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The only part that's not easy is to have work at the same time, which makes me less likely to say things nicely. I just have time to write fast and leave to continue work

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But otherwise it's ok, the community here is pretty great

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We have very little problems

night idol
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How many members on this channel?

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Any I'll read what U linked

normal axle
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50k at the moment

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There's no need to read it. I'll tell you how you can contradict me. Each number is based on a number of reviews, between 500 and a few thousands. This is enough to be statistically significantly, so there's no much hope poking holes into the sample size.
However, most responses are based in Sidney, which skews up

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Additionally, you just had not picked up on the word "senior", you were talking about regular wages

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So we were just not talking about the same thing

night idol
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Also could I ask some company's you are in affiliation with just curious!

normal axle
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Had an advertising company, a VOD company, a fashion company, a web dev company

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I'm 40

night idol
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Oh yeah cool

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Ur doing a good job at gdquest cos they r expanding steadily

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Anyway, about the wages, we were also talking different industrys

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I was talking agricultural you more so it I think

normal axle
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Yes

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Sorry for coming on strong, I see you probably didn't have dishonest intentions, but I interpreted your tone that way.

night idol
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Ok, you seemed very nasty at first lol

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But I can see you are just a strong personality like me

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Not nasty

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I used to enjoy moderating, but now it feels like a chore whenever I do it

night idol
night idol
normal axle
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bye!

oak grove
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What's a fair revshare agreement? The thing I'm worried about is. Some does some work but doesn't stick with the project to the end?

normal axle
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That's a question to ask a lawyer and to decide between you and your teammates.
What matters is that everyone agrees from the start.

If someone participates a bit, you can either decide on shares by join/ leave date, or decide to not use their work at all, or any other number of schemes you'll deem fair.

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Generally, rev share can't really work as a sole source of revenue anyway, so it's a bit tricky to devise.

Generally rev shares works:
A) between two or max 4 friends, who trust each other, and are gonna share equally no matter what. If one of them pulls out, either the project is cancelled and everyone goes home, or there's enough trust to discuss shares (potentially still sharing equally no matter what).
B) as a supplement to a pay, where people get paid a normal salary, and then a revshare % on top because it's fair that they profit from which they helped create

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Rev share as in "hey, come work on this and get rev share" is not really a model

umbral lodge
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Question ... if i want to help in someone's game, not really asking for payment but sinply as a oportunity to do some work and learn some stuff (bcs i have no experience in tame dev.), should i ask in here or somewhere else?

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Asking bcs i dont want to bother anyone, nor do i want people to rhink i good with the stuff i do, also bcs i cant do work full time, since i am still in high school

normal axle
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You can ask here, make sure to select "revshare" as a tag. That is the legal setup you would fall under as an unpaid worker.
You can also try to find a team to work with in #game-jams , which is probably closer to what you want.

umbral lodge
fading smelt
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Is offering game testing services (QA) allowed here?

normal axle
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Yes

rocky vortex
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Has this #1019654979331571712 replaced the old channel called #collab-n-jobs? Has that one been archived? I had a link to a post I found interesting in there and it's not working anymore 🥲

So, not super important, but if a mod has access to #collab-n-jobs message and can tell me the name of the poster, that'd be great 🙂 Otherwise I'll just probably find whoever that was again at a later date ^_^

normal axle
rocky vortex
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Oh thank you so much! I have saved what I needed, you can remove the role now 🙂 ❤️ @normal axle

river parcel
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I'm gettin You are being rate limited when I try to post. May I ask what's this rate limit and it's rules?

normal axle
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I think it's when you send maybe 7 messages in under 30s or something of the sort. There are different rate limits that apply to different behaviors. I can look into it later, please remind me, but in #1035915195224174613 (it has nothing to do with jobs)

river parcel
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How can I close a post?

normal axle
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You should be able to right-click in the left tree and select "close post". Or, in the opened post, the 3 dots next to the search bar

river parcel
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Got an open post I guess that means the posts close after a while