#Slow down! Make the game harder for Nigthmare players

89 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

ocean stratus
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Most nightmare players will definitely agree that, in its current state, the game is far too easy and it's all because of current movement. No matter how many adjustments are made to the balance of the game - such as spawn rates of zombies or the amount of ammo you can find - the movement system is still too generous. The ability to easily avoid zombies, jumping from obstacle to obstacle, side jumping so you skip vault animation and just simply jumping around allows players to avoid most lunge or normal zombie attacks. I run all my nightmare games with nothing but the steel pipe because of how easy it is to just zoom around. It's way too forgiving, it doesn't feel as stressful or tense like the first game, players just move way too quickly. I think NMRiH2 should move approach to more hardcore coop experience like GTFO or Ready or Not.

Movement needs to be slowed down significantly to make the experience more difficult, stressful, and tense - just like in the first game.

My proposal to adjust and tone down movement so the game becomes much harder is:

  • Lower height of jumping so players can mostly rely on mantling and vaulting
  • A massive stamina drain when jumping
  • Jump fatigue after 2-3 jumps
  • Slower walking speed, to increase tension when surrounded by hordes of zombies while out of stamina
  • Complete removal of bunnyhopping (it’s still possible if timed right)

While on the topic of slowing down, longer animations of healing for medkit and bandages need to come back aswell.

autumn nimbus
brazen ocean
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Jumping should indeed cost stamina. I feel like that shouldn’t be given for free.

rotund dune
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I agree but disagree we the play are not zombies. We have our agility to us. But as the waves get bigger movement is becoming more key. I prioritize control over difficulty as for the most part devs cannot balance the 2. But I do feel there should be jump delays in game. But then again jump spam has directly saved me from game hank like hit box’s licking me in place or getting stuck in an area I could escape from before.

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I think threats like runners also make this movement important but I say an increase in threats to solos is the better option instead of stripping control from the player. For example clickable cars has added to game play by players using their agility to rest between assaults as runners climb the cars. Runners also spawning in larger groups means we do need a level of agility( I want more runners btw) slow zombie are just that slow zombies. We should expect much from them unless they are actively working off an advantage like unstructured or numbers.

ocean stratus
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I disagree. What differentiates NMRiH from other zombie games is how slow and methodical it was. For someone unexperienced, one zombie already posed a threat. I want to feel the sense of dread when I get cornered by the horde because I don't have much means to escape. Plan through my next step carefuly so I won't die.

As of right now, I go into nightmare matches without much thought because I can just jump around, kill 10 zombies with 3 swings and still have loads of stamina left.

unique oracle
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I play this game incredibly slowly, but I think that's because I prefer it that way. Unfortunately this is a more complicated issue to solve, finding a way for players to slow down and work as a team. NMRIH1 had/has the same issue as NMRIH2: The game is plagued by "speedrunners". You play a map enough and you'll know the best route.

I think a possible solution/gameplay addition is to add more obstacles the player needs to go through to let the game slow down naturally, rather than removing/restricting movement options from the player. Zombies are a natural obstacle, you need to deal with their constant persistence. There could be more objectives, changing paths leading to new areas, having objects in an existing area move around or change to create more obstacles. Those are simple examples but there are plenty of ways to force the game to slow down without restricting the player. The "defend your position" segments are a big one that were present in NMRIH1 too. I guess that's why I liked Wave Survival more than Objective.

For animations, I think the bandage speed is fine, but medkits need their old animation back to force you to space properly and rely on your team to protect you. I mentioned this in a previous post but I would like barricading to get its animation back too. Buff the HP of boards and the longer "barricade time" is rewarded by holding back the horde for just a little longer.

rotund dune
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u can dance around zombie even better then u can in this game

unique oracle
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Yeah, the map design and also Source jank allowed for a lot of avoiding the dead. I might be misremembering but I think they were also a lot slower in NMRIH1 compared to NMRIH2. Their walking speed that is.

autumn nimbus
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@unique oracle @ocean stratus The one thing you need to remember though is that the maps of the first game were all close quarters. They weren’t open map like they are now.
That map design plays into the slow pace of the first game. Even speedrunners still need to plan out a route and improvise on the spot due to the map design.

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We also need the devour mechanic and walkers turning into runners mechanic back too.

unique oracle
half crater
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Some maps outright just spawn runners continuously which also punishes slower play styles, and also the extraction is way more likely to leave you behind if you aren't close enough when it activates (way worse speed runner vs new player exacerbated)

ocean stratus
half crater
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which is why playing fast is way easier

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plus leg meta

ocean stratus
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Literally the reason why game is so easy is because of the movement. It's not only me that plays the game like this, I've seen others bunnyhopping from place to place just like I do, barely getting any damage.

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Last time I've seen someone die was back during free weekend.

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Game shouldn't be that easy and generous with it's movement. It should be as slow as NMRiH1

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Albeit I'll agree, because of the map size it can't be THAT slow, but atleast during combat.

frigid cove
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There are places where falling from a 30 cm rock causes damage, while a jump from a height of 2-5 meters doesn’t feel like anything at all, and sometimes the jump distance reaches up to 5 meters

half crater
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For me it was maybe a coupleish months ago

ocean stratus
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Yesterday infact

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when I was checking out the update

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and that's the thing

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even when zombie grabs me and there's loads of them around, I still can get out unscathed

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that shouldn't be a thing

mystic spade
# ocean stratus Most nightmare players will definitely agree that, in its current state, the gam...

Interesting post and replies. In summary I agree with what's proposed here.

The game does currently feel like a shoot and scoot which I don't think it's the right formula. I'll leave that kind of playstyle for DeadIsland2. It's a careful balancing act I'd say. Problem with playing around with player movement speed is that the effects are significantly varied depending on the size of the map that's being played, and I don't believe an adequate solution is varying the players speed depending on the map. Maybe it would be though. It could possibly be a simple fix for pacing that can be easy to play test on the development backend with enough opinions coming through.

I agree with the premise of this concern, and think TBS should address it for 1.0, but specifying how to address it is much more complicated then it might seem on the surface. There's essentially innumerable game variables that can impact the 'pacing' that you can use. Finding the ideal way is a soul searching, difficult task. Let alone it's implementation and testing.

I know giving the devs varied and specific ideas on this subject would definitely be helpful. The more specific and descriptive the better, along with your perceived impacts.

@random pollen Looping you in on this in case it's an aspect the development team is considering on changing for full release.

Go wild guys.

meager slate
meager slate
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A massive stamina drain when jumping

We don't need such hardcore changes but anything towards slowing us down will be great.

In many horror games, you don't have many abilities. Sometimes you don't even have a gun.

Slowing the pace will make the game more enjoyable. If you are fast, you feel superior. This is not how a horror game works.

ocean stratus
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since maps are huge

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stamina drain upon jumping doesn't have to be massive, just to be there like in the first game

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in the first game if I were in a exact tight corner with loads of zombies, I would have to think my possibilies, how can I survive this, should I take another way, should I take out just 2 or 3 and kite the rest, should I just K myself

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meanwhile NMRiH2, zombies are sometimes a big threat

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Now hear me out on this one

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we don't have to change mechanics for the whole game

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maybe just nightmare

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since I can see most people are split on this one

gleaming swift
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Always happy to have nightmare be harder

half crater
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I mean if they just made a more refined and modernized version of the og grapple system, enforced more combat limits balance wise, made areas of the map harder to traverse due to density of zombies at specific areas and had difficulty determining how many, how much health, how hard they hit we would have a slower and more true to original game that would be difficult but fair

wind mesa
rotund dune
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white "charged" needs to be less

ocean stratus
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Slow down! Make the game harder for Nigthmare players

frigid cove
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These screenshots were taken at the end of different sessions in Nightmare mode, and as can be seen, the amount of resources is far too high.
The presence of perks and duplicate items from the shop makes the character nearly unkillable.
From my personal subjective point of view, the only difference between Nightmare and Easy modes is that in Nightmare the infected are just a bit tougher.

Sometimes there’s nowhere to put the resources, you can carry up to 150 rounds of ammo. This is not to say that the bag needs to be expanded or a new perk for carrying capacity should be added, but rather that the amount of items in Nightmare mode should be reduced.

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brave dew
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At the end of the day the game is way easier then nmrih1 and like he said its true the zombies are easier to avoid u don’t feel helpless like in part 1 also there is way to much loot like in the picture above the ammo need to be way more scarce it’s apocalypse ammo should be lowered a bit

brave dew
half crater
frigid cove
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👍

frail elk
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we need slow human not zombies.

analog sequoia
frail elk
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it can be like that but we need then like 4x time more stamina/health. only runners can be maybe a fun event..

rancid wolf
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we do not need to slow anyone, just add more runners.
return back the melee + parkour like it was on the free weekend.
it was feel fun this rush + legs cutting meta, but now if feels like it is slow with low fps and No MORE FUN

analog sequoia
ocean stratus
azure locust
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lol

mellow owl
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The stamina manage is OK, and understandable, good in vision. But overall the other things....nerf the player movement to be slower or make the zombies faster thats just crap idea. The game already look like a Doom, and the zombies has good now 3times speed buffed??! But 2 times that sure! In the last patch the devs increased their range too, like a pole...they do now. They are look like just teleported from Doom to play here. The crawlers should be much much slower, because they are not monkeys, and space clowns with teleporting abilities. They only should pose threat because in the numbers. The runners has active virus inside their bodies, so they should be the overall threat always with 3x times faster than the player, and thats it... Tankers should be the same speed like the crawlers, but more hp. And all the zombies should get the ability to continue the moving on their hands for a limited time while their blood inside their body, if the player has managing to cut their legs off. -Plus in this vision, the zombies should get a smell ability, that help them follow the player faster, IF the player has lower health like 25percent bloody lost/loss. SO each hit possible to cause blood loss effect under 50percent health is critial, and they will smell the player then. THESE was in the legacy build idea. With devour mechanic, and old grapple. If you fu.. up the speed, you will kill the idea TO BE the oldschool Romero style game. Like the devs doing at the moment. Do you want playerbase?Or you just want to play on your self, on a deserted game. I have 500hour in the game, and understanding everything. But hell, if know the map, thats help you a lot, like 75percent...and then we are speaking from a speedrunning. The game already on like 80ish player active on a day...so you want its end. Since the free weekend, where iam sure potential selling happened, the playerbase slowly gone, then after the last 4update. T game changed a lot, from romero style...like did a 360.

ocean stratus
frigid cove
rotund dune
ocean stratus
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And I can totally see it, the game is just way too casual and generous with the tools it's giving to the Player

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the game already on like 80ish player active on a day...so you want its end

Do you really think that would kill the game even more? I already don't feel like playing because of how not challenging the game is

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The great "streamlining of video games for modern audiences" is an absolute plague

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All I hoped, and still hope, for NMRiH2 is for it to be a hardcore experience

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If GTFO and Ready or Not could do it, why this can't

mellow owl
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GTFO is the because very hardcore, and its stuck, same like this game, and Ready or Not probably the another game that same, because full of censored things, and if you know swat tactical unit and terrorism...then you know never ever should censor anything that show what brutality is that they DO. Those games will be drop in playerbase soon, because there will be just better games with tactical elements. GTFO price shows this. But GTFO is very rushed too, so overall in my vision not a finished game.

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The great "streamlining of video games for modern audiences" is an absolute plague Not about modern audience, the problem how you solve and make it hard. If the developer only know how to make the zombie like woody woodpecker thaats really not about anything, thats just budget, total budget thing in the video games. IF you rewatch all zombie movies, khm not the modern ones...the zombies there HUMANS, and look like humans, move like humans, pretty straightforward. They are deadly in gathered massive horde, but really weak one by one. And they are not teleporting, not has 40percent speedhack to move better than the human who is alive.

mellow owl
# ocean stratus All I hoped, and still hope, for NMRiH2 is for it to be a hardcore experience

The game can be hardcore for hardcore gamers, and hardcore to be played by casual gamers too, IF the game is FAIR, and radically realistic, pretty straightforward realistic, not just make the game OP and just played by khm 70-80player a day, and you see it with your very eyes. Because thats happening. You think that the game is can be alive for years with 70ish players, but not, if they cannot get more they will just pull out the plug. Then you can't play.

mellow owl
# rotund dune A 98 precent slow moving massive horde is pretty Romero 😭

They are not slow, they are buffed, pretty insane +speed the have, even the crawlers has. I think they buffed them now 2-3 times. My problem not the damage, my problem how the overall they moving and working, and spawning. It's not look like Romero at all. In a Romero movie they are deadly in massive, but they are SLOW, and the player has advantage to be faster, the devs pushing this TO be Dead Island.

turbid crater
# mellow owl The great "streamlining of video games for modern audiences" is an absolute plag...

Bruh I'm sorry but you need to collect and format your thoughts, but honestly if you can't see why they shifted away from the old speeds like they had in the legacy build then it's because you don't understand they are not scary at all and apply zero pressure to you as a player which means the gameplay is boring.

They do not 'teleport' around with the speed boosts they've been given, it also only applies to Hard & Nightmare where the game is MEANT to be more unforgiving, every change they do lately is to try and nerf players and bring them back in line with what NMRIH1 vets want but people are never going to be sated.

The zombies will never be slowed down and have their numbers increased significantly from what they are atm because it would require an insane amount of work.
This isn't Megabonk where we can bake the animations of our extremely basic enemies to grow the allowed spawns to hundreds/thousands because then the gore system & interactions in general go out the window.

The pace of the game is one of the more enjoyable parts to it, it doesn't overstay its welcome and feel like a slog doing a single match.

Just to brush you up on how much of a joke zombie speed was before:

mellow owl
# turbid crater Bruh I'm sorry but you need to collect and format your thoughts, but honestly if...

In my vision, the devs shifted because they wanted to move this game to get more cod zombie mod players. While that game is tedious faster and probably you just go and ratatatatadadadatataa. Spam your ammo till you are off/out and then you waiting for the next ammor refill-powerups. The only difference THERE that you keep moving with button S and aim. HERE in this game the difference is they increased the speed, you must avoid the zombies till you LOOT ALOT. You just keep run, well thaats the boring. If you ask me. Then the whole game would be just slow, and make them do 4times damage... I can say FOR me, and you can see the player numbers...for them this gameplay the boring. It grounded for just 1 side, for the zombies, but not for you versus the zombies. The pacing, now is joke. They are just obstacles, they are look like obstacles, and not humans. Not mortals with this speed. They are just there, to make your game unfair and OP. The character what you operate, just feels defected, and you must TO BE defected. The whole game feels, you have like just 1 leg, and you must go versus people that they have 2 legs from the start. While in the Romero movies in the vision NOT. I played nightmare a lot, soloed them, and most in my time played hard mode in this game.

rotund dune
meager slate
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NMRIH1 has flesh, it's nothing like COD. Complainers tend to compare with poop games if they desire uniqueness. Also, movies are movies and games are games. Making a movie-like game is not in consideration. But I'd like to watch a NMRIH movie which is a dead dream.

rotund dune
autumn nimbus
buoyant eagle
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perminant limb damage a debufs

autumn nimbus
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Alright, I'd like to share my two cents regarding this.
Yes, if we look at the legacy build player walking and running speeds, they are slower in comparison to now. Same thing goes for the zombies' speed.
They both play hand in hand when it comes to interactions. I have a theory that maybe the player movement speed was changed because previous playtesters thought it was too slow, which is completely understandable.
Personally, I think the player movement speed should be slowed down, but maybe not to the legacy build level. Just slightly faster to make walking and running feel like walking and running.
As for zombie speeds, with the recent nerfs to perks and stamina, which are completely justifiable, it only makes sense to slow them down, but not down to legacy build levels. For me, the only zombie that should have the legacy build speed should be the shamblers. The rest should have various varied walking speeds.
An additional and reasonable change the devs could also add is to make stamina recover while we are holding a charged attack.

ocean stratus
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My only wish is to slow down the player movement speed, add stamina drain upon jump and jump fatigue

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I feel like the movement is way too generous