Survivor Mode - Our Wanting for a Classic NMRIH Experience

[patent solstice]

Hello everyone!
In today's discussion, I wanted to speak and urge all of you, in summary, to advocate for a separate survivor mode in the game and reinforce the devs with this wanting.

Many of you know that me and several others simply don't like the responders. We think that the devs should have stuck with survivors from the very beginning since the TBS acquisition because being a survivor, instead of the militaristic style responder that we are, serves the overall narrative and identity of NMRIH better. Playing as a normal survivor results in us being pulled into this pandemic stricken world. Why? Because the battle or the war against NPV-26 is personal. We may have all been affected by the virus, but how it affected us varies greatly. The amount of empathy present with survivors, in my personal opinion, aids the overall connection we should have.

Various months ago, I posted a discussion about replacing responders for survivors. As time went on, the likelihood of this happening is incredibly slim. The reason for this is simply because of the amount of time and resources needed to change everything we currently have for a survivor narrative. Objectives need to be updated for each map, new artwork needs to be made, dialogue needs to be rewritten and rerecorded, code would have to be changed, etc. Looking at this from a developer perspective, all of this wouldn't take a month; it could take a whole year, which is why it's understandable that creating a separate survivor mode from scratch would be the way to go.

To conclude this discussion, let's advocate for the devs to create a survivor mode. Let's help reinforce this much needed element for NMRIH2. Let's let Maxx, Cenelder, and every other dev at TBS know that not only is this something that we want, but something that we need.

Let's get this request going.
Thank you.

[sly yew]

So, you mind explaining what survivor mode is cause people like me aren't gonna go searching through the NMRIH1 to figure that out (we are just too lazy) and it sounds interesting.

[patent solstice]

I explained it in the post, but I don't mind reiterating it.
Essentially, survivor mode would be the classic NMRIH experience where we play as regular people instead of the current responders.
For this mode, and this is only as an example, we have no perks or loadouts. Our objective is to escape like the first game and experience what NMRIH should be. Of course though, this is just a summary of the whole thing.

[sly yew]

okay so just a clean run with a pipe then? How would progression work, would you keep stuff you found or just start fresh every run? (haven't played NMRIH1).

[patent solstice]

For progression, I don't know. I'm simply advocating for the devs to implement this mode because it's what many players want and need.
As for our equipment, it's better if we start fresh and scavenge for weapons and items since it plays into the experience and the game's identity as a whole.

[sly yew]

I mean that's the big issue atm of why they can't swap it; removal of perks makes the only grind you have is nightmare escapes and then requestion slips would have no meaning. would gut the game pretty much cause the gameplay is fun and can be intense with a smaller lobby but it will get boring. Only way i see this working is to make guns pretty rare and can be kept along with heals and stuff till you lose it, use it, or for guns give them like match durability till they start jamming or break.

[patent solstice]

Firstly, the devs have stated that gun jamming will never be a thing in this game.
Secondly, what do you mean by why they can't swap it? Are you referring to swapping responders for survivors?
Thirdly, the game right now can already get boring with no perk re-rolls and maps not having diverse pathways.
Lastly, again, keeping things that we extract with would make things much easier as we can extract with the best of the best. Now THAT would be boring.

[marble geyser]

i was thinking that in survival mode you could play as survivors

your normal joes trying to hold out until crc or ng comes to rescue

no perks, no loadouts, scavenge for melees&guns and survive as long as you have to

just like nmrih1

[sly yew]

misread thought you was asking for swapping the current game for that. yeah the game gets boring but until they have diverse pathways or if this difficulty update makes it more engaging it just gonna get boring quicker. For the extraction part i was thinking like stuff being alot rarer where melee and avoiding hits would be the main thing and you would be lucky to get a gun and more caution to avoid losing it in the next run just to add more stakes. But anyway i don't think it would be hard for them to add that it and see how it does.

[sly yew]

that would actually be pretty cool and fresh for the game.

[marble geyser]

i totally agree with sabinian tho
being by your own, without crc commanders, finding clues and surviving together with your friends is the core feeling of nmrih1

[patent solstice]

I use to advocate to swap what we have now for survivor narrative, but as the post states, that would take way too much time and resources for the devs. It would simply be better if the devs created a separate survivor mode from scratch.

[marble geyser]

nmrih1 doesnt have any perks, nor rewards by beating maps (except achivements) but the way every single match is played depending of the people you are with and the interactions and shit makes it so so good

[warm cairn]

"Much needed element" hard disagree

[sly yew]

Ahh so more akin to the flow of a L4d campaign except it wouldn't be exactly linear with multiple ways out that you could chose from?

[patent solstice]

Why?

[scarlet tulip]

I wish we could ask when the switch from survivors to CRC happened

Was it a last minute thing? Were the survivors just placeholder?

I dunno I wasn't around in the early days

[warm cairn]

There really isnt a substantive difference between being a responder and being a "survivor" from a mechanical standpoint. From a narrative standpoint, being a responder is more interesting than being a generic survivor. Theres a million games where we're "just trying to survive". Imo, trying to get the lights on, power running, supplies secured and refugees evacuated is proactive, as opposed to being a reactive "survivor".

I get that a mode with no perks or loadouts would be interesting, and I'd be fine with that as an option. But the idea that swapping responders for survivors would somehow greatly improve the game is an extremely strange fixation people seem to have.

[slim girder]

It happened during TB acquisition so maybe by the end of 2023 , 0 mention of red cross wannabes in the old build

[patent solstice]

Lad, I already advocated for the swap before, but realize that the swap is impossible due to what I mentioned in this post.
Which is why I'm advocating for there to be a separate survivor mode.
The mechanical standpoint I understand, but the narrative standpoint is where you and I will be at an impasse. Additionally, all of those things you mentioned such as getting power running, turning on lights, securing supplies, etc, can be done with a survivor narrative. It just has to be implemented well to make sense and I have reasonable hopes that it can.

[warm cairn]

We're just going to be at an impasse then, yeah, because I really don't get what makes it appealing when theres already a ton of games that use that framework. 🤷‍♂️

[turbid harness]

i actually want to add that the responders are survivor that joined to help , they dont have military training or nothing like that, from the lore atleast, literally Joey says he joined for the tax break , at some point you have to suspense belief realism to make the game better, i dont complain why does "ordinary survivor" just your average joe knows how to load a military rifle or how they can lift sleghammer bigger than their forearm.

[warm cairn]

Right, thats why this topic always confuses me. We're not playing spec ops or anything. We're responders as in first responders. Regular joes and janes who showed up

[patent solstice]

We know this, but the way the responders were implemented give off a militaristic feel to them that simply doesn't work.

[turbid harness]

seems it just doesnt work for you, again why dont you make the same complains in the first game

i would be call an idiot or it just a game if i did

[sly yew]

I think in a way both could work one where with the CRC where it could be more linear due to following orders and could probably have risker missions like we did at Potts where we held out for evacs. Then with survivor who arn’t with the CRC can have more open ended of objectives of just getting out could probably tie it with the recruiting mechanic.

[patent solstice]

The first game didn't have responders. What do you mean?

[turbid harness]

did you even read what i said?

[slim girder]

Depends
I prefer simple survivors for immersion , I dislike the hand holding the current responders have with the CRC

[turbid harness]

the first game had "survivors" that know how military grade weapon work, that could use weapon bigger than their whole arm , that magically know where to go everytime, like bro at this point you trolling me?

[warm cairn]

For me, I don't see it as being different than magic text, already knowing where to go or dudes on radios telling you where to go in the first game

[turbid harness]

altleast in the second game there is a reason but in the first it just " it a game lol" but i guess we cant give the same excuse here can we?

[slim girder]

Bro you are saying that to sabinian the guy who is more into the lore , he already knows that , everyone knows responders are not super soldiers just the red cross but the fact an organization helps them all the time just it doesn't work for me at least, sure responders are a new thing but it doesn't mean their presence is implemented correctly and pretty sure they are a last minute or year thing because they didn't exist until very late

[marble geyser]

devs said a time ago the nmrih1 maps are played months after the start of the apocalipsis, so most of the survivors learnt to use weapons to defend themselfs

thats also why in nmrih1 most zombies are shamblers and not walkers like nmrih2

i'll see if i can find the message

[patent solstice]

Firstly, I'm not trolling.
Secondly, what military grade weapons are you talking about? The only one I can think of is the M16 at best.
Thirdly, are you insinuating or indirectly claiming that an ordinary person couldn't know how to use a weapon, "bigger than their whole arm?" I'm not going to doubt there aren't people who don't know how to swing an axe or a baseball bat, but that's such a weak argument. If a situation like this calls for learning and improvising on using a weapon, then you have no choice but to do so.
And fourthly, almost every map in NMRIH1 gives us a loading screen backstory alongside the objectives that we need to follow. It's not a case of magically knowing of where to go every time.

[feral echo]

Is this screenshot from nmrih 2 lewiston ?

[marble geyser]

seems like it

[turbid harness]

weird it got deleted what word is even banned?

[patent solstice]

F word. It's silly.

[turbid harness]

lol where does it say f

[marble geyser]

it's even funnier on nmrih2 ingame chat
YOU CANT TYPE HECK

[patent solstice]

In the message, you said sledgehammers are f******* huge.

[turbid harness]

a

[turbid harness]

first. gotcha i guess you just misread it
Second. M16 like you said, military riffle, SKV4 i think that how it called, all military weapons that even i don't know how to load , ik if you wanna says" Well i know and i am an ordinary guy" sorry you are not everybody that why again you have to suspense belief on realism.
Third sledgehammer in the game are huge and not to mention let say the battery on tthat uk map is also huge why aren't they slowed by it yes they walk but it at normal peace not slowed like the second game , again you have to suspense belief on realism as you said not everyone will know but as i see it in the first game seem most ppl know very well how to handle it
Last point, you are right but again it the same with the second game it just narrates instead of reading it and normally it just facts about the map or before the outbreak and world building that again it thrown in your face then doesn't matter at least the second actually tells you why u are doing and why.

there

forgot to add i prefer this "mode" be done later when the game is out and fix or just go support the guy doing the NMRIH 1 remake

[marble geyser]

there's someone doing a nmrih1 remake?

chat is this real?

[slim girder]

There are more chances of me getting laid than the guy of reddit doing the remake

[turbid harness]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nmrih/comments/1jzmd7x/working_on_a_nmrih_1_remaster_heres_a_teaser

@marble geyser

[marble geyser]

something is telling me it will have the same ending as classic offensive

a cease and desist letter from torn banner studios

[turbid harness]

there is alot to talk about that it really not "omg valve is shutting down my game"

but let keep it to what op said here

[marble geyser]

i could help the dude doing guns animations

[slim girder]

Well first that remake has to give real life signals and then will see

[slim girder]

Go contact and ask him , not joking

[marble geyser]

the thing is my pc cant handle unreal engine 5

[patent solstice]

Okay. I don't know what I misread. So, you're going to have to enlighten me on that.
Next, when it comes to the model of the sledgehammer or the batteries being very big, that I understand, but that's just the model.
In regards to knowing or not knowing how to load or shoot a gun, again, the call to improvising and learning on the spot is crucial.
And while the first game lets you read the backstory and the second game narrates it as you progress, I'm not going to deny that both are effective. But you also need to understand that environmental story telling is also a thing that the first game does too. It does it better on some maps more than others, that I will admit. For example, I personally like the environmental story telling of Suzhuo, Arpley, and Brooklyn.

[slim girder]

"realism" is such a double edge word

[patent solstice]

And to also clarify gansta, I'm here to have genuine discussions despite the occasional impasses and disagreements.
I welcome disagreements. I don't want to come off as trolling.

[turbid harness]

that why suspense your realisim, they did their best in NMRIH 1 and doing their best on the second

[marble geyser]

you gotta balance realism and gameplay cuz tbh a runner irl would just jump towards you, maul your face and you couldnt do anything since the mfs are on adrenaline and don't feel pain at all

[patent solstice]

I've talked about balancing realism and idealism.

[slim girder]

I mean I already do that , like my critiques of nmrih2 were never a lack of realism or some dumb shit like that just preference

[marble geyser]

also are we talking abt sab's suggestion or nmrih1 survs?

[turbid harness]

idk anymore, i dont see the point of adding survivor or a game mode with no perks , you can get the same interaction with everybody with or no perks, i would argue with perk those interaction are better.

[marble geyser]

for me survivors should be for survival gamemode
you could earn credits and account exp

the more you survive, the more exp and credits you gain

[slim girder]

Since TB already introduced responders deep inside our asses that concept is never going away but just a new game mode being a simple survivors could attract people from the first game because they wanted something "classic" , obviously not adding special maps for this mode just use existing maps and cut them make them more linear and done

[marsh shale]

This kind of reminds me of Quickplay in Hunt: Showdown.
Where you play as a random person and you have to fight the whole lobby until last man standing. In that game mode, if you won, you could recruit that survivor to be in your roster of hunters, and they would have the equipment you were carrying during that game. If you lose, you don’t really lose anything base game or suffer much permadeath because you’re playing a random person for free

[patent solstice]

Well, not just linear, but a mix of linear and non-linear. Both can work.

[marsh shale]

I wouldn’t mind a separate survivor mode where we play as a random person and don’t have to worry about permadeath

[turbid harness]

i actually like this idea better than just quick play

[marsh shale]

Help each other survive as random perkless survivors against waves like in the 1st game, until CRC sends a heli to help us extract. Maybe CRC could give the extracted survivors a job offer as responders for surviving for so long against horrible odds, with the option to take or refuse said job offer. If recruited in your roster, they could start out with some levels and a few reasonable equipment for free from the loadout menu. Random nobodies that later earned their place as responders? idk I’m just tossing stuff from my small brain.

[serene onyx]

They don't understand that it doesn't matter if you say "but actually responders are survivors, they are normal people that kinda work for a red cross organization" because they actually aren't, the fact that they are part of a organization at all already takes away from the survivor fantasy

Hell, they have a guaranteed method entering and exiting a map, no matter how much they try to sell that responders are survivors, i'll never buy it.

[slim girder]

exactly , like in Broadway i thought we were going to be alone for the first time but we were still in contact with the CRC and that was disappointing

[marble geyser]

imagine a system where depending of the stuff you did on the survival match your responder gains a perk related to that

you used a lot of firearms, you get a firearm perk

[marsh shale]

Maybe an expert starting perk in the level 1 slot?

[marble geyser]

you healed yourself and teammates a lot, you get a medic related perk

[marsh shale]

Ah yeah that’ll be cool

[marble geyser]

if they balance the perks first, sure

imagine running a lot on the map and getting marathon expert which makes you run forever

lmaooo that´s busted as hell

[marsh shale]

the match is just them progressively awakening their true potential they never thought they had

[marsh shale]

yee that’d be busted

[marble geyser]

so now survival mode with survivors HAS a purpose

if your character roster is full you'll get and account and credit exp bonus maybe

nmrih2 responders: dude we gotta help all those poor people before leaving....

nmrih1 survivors: dude im so hungry lets go out and call for help

[marsh shale]

Hunt Showdown’s Quickplay had your Soul Survivors be stored separate bank, and if you had space in your base game roster, you could recruit them from that bank, maybe the same can be done here?

[marble geyser]

could be

[wicked tundra]

I'm all for a survivors gamemode. I very much like the Responder concept more than survivors but it wouldn't hurt to have a separate mode if possible. The maps would still be non-linear though right? A survivors gamemode with linear maps would be a direct downgrade imo.

[patent solstice]

I'm all for a combination of both linear and non-linear maps for this gamemode.
Like I said in this post, I acknowledge that responders are here to stay for development reasons. Only rational to create a separate survivor mode.

[lethal bridge]

I'll answer two questions right away:
First - can ordinary civilians handle heavy and firearms?
Answer: Yes, more details below.

Second - about perks.
Answer: Perks can be integrated directly into character stats.

Bonus: each character has a unique appearance based on their profession.
• Builder, firefighter, loader, miner - strong and resilient, can wield heavy weapons (sledgehammer, axe) for longer.
• Hunter, security guard, hobby shooter - skilled with firearms.
• Nurse, courier, waiter - fast runners with increased attack speed when using light weapons.

[autumn wigeon]

they arent militaristic lol they are more close in organization to a fire rescue service then a military force lol

[patent solstice]

They sure as hell feel like it. It’s why I said, “militaristic style.”

[autumn wigeon]

I don’t see how just cuz we leave on a chinook Doesn’t mean that. Also if you look at the “uniforms” you can tell they don’t fund us enough to get more then a hat or spray painted code of arms on

[patent solstice]

How is leaving on a chinook relevant to the conversation? I’m not criticizing that.

[autumn wigeon]

Idk certain people find correlation in things and that’s why they associate

[patent solstice]

Understood, but yeah, it’s not what I’m talking about at all.

[sly yew]

i mean we are kinda of a militia except no regular training and not well armed, just a group of unorganized civ volunteers who just listen to a guy or gal on a radio.

[marble geyser]

as far as i know crc is hiring anyone

but yeah the way You don't feel like a survivors is the radio comunication with the crc

"ok crc members, you gotta hack into the system, recover some serious data, explote the red barrel to turn on the bonfire and get the hell out of there like a badass"

while on nmrih1 it's was just "bring the gas can lol" and a compass

although a solution for that is turning off the crc radio on game settings

[patent solstice]

Or, if resources are available, redo the dialogue to convey more that the CRC are run down are nowhere near equipped for something like this, but have to.

[marble geyser]

yeah but tbh i prefer not having crc voice at all

also the chopper pilot sounds funny af

"guys uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i have no clue uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh where do i have to uhhhh land"

[patent solstice]

Me as well.

[marble geyser]

hopefully with customization 2.0 we could give our responders a less "military" aspect

damn imagine returning to nmrih2 legacy where you had to search for clues

[patent solstice]

Now THAT is something we should have.
For me, the way I picture that scenario, especially for Powerplant, is that Sam or Victoria explain to us that in order for us to get to the plant, we need two overrides but they don’t know where particularly they are. They can say they’re located south of the plant, north of the plant, etc, and explain how some locations may be locked or unlocked and from there we would have to find clues and keys to get in. This is how things should be by default instead of having all the intel by default.

[marble geyser]

dude that would be so awesome

also that would make players more interested and focused on the maps

[patent solstice]

In theory, yes.
When it comes to the other maps, I don’t know if the same thing can be implemented.

[marble geyser]

pottsville is the most linear map of them all

only rng are some of the stores on the plaza/after community center obj

and some houses

[patent solstice]

Remember, Broadway is also very linear.

[marble geyser]

you could easily spot them

[marble geyser]

also you can explore any part of the map thanks to the sewer system

it's linear, but gives you liberty to explore still

lewiston is open map but with bunch of stores

although, on old build you had already the objs about recolecting data meds and stuff so

i expect that survivors had a way to contact with mr waldo (via radio or walkie) so he tells you where to find stuff

also isnt power plant like a super modified version of notld map?

i see basic objectives like "find a place if you can" and then inside that place the objective list expands by collecting clues
for example
find place
restore power (fuses, wires, generator, switch, etc)
thx to restoring the power, you hear a transmission by the NG saying "communicate via radio"
and so on and so on

[serene onyx]

He is whispering to my soul

[patent solstice]

It is.

[marble geyser]

i just wanna leave this here

[patent solstice]

https://tenor.com/view/paulie-gualtieri-paul-tony-sirico-wtf-finger-gif-22816998

[autumn wigeon]

Further proof they are a marine task force with their profiles in black ink and over 300 confirmed kills

[orchid yoke]

hyperrrr lethallll

[patent solstice]

https://tenor.com/view/outlast-глад-валакас-gif-3526994847692718153

I detect sarcasm...

[autumn wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/trollface-gif-8242347154758580084

[marble geyser]

dont ask survivors how to disassemble the guns tho

[tame ember]

The nmrih1 objectives didn't make sense and just popped on screen. At least the responder thing legitimizes them.

[patent solstice]

So what if they did pop up on the screen? Has nothing to do with their effectiveness in what needed to be conveyed.

[tame ember]

Wasn't immersive and felt like we were receiving directives anyway

So why not be actually receiving them

I agree being a survivor is a cooler vibe, but it leads to dissonance with the gameplay.

[marble geyser]

i agree with that

oh so magically i know where is the gas can

i play without compass and glowoutlines for inmersion

it's better that way

nmrih2 legacy build had the tablet with objectives vague descriptions like "go to the radio station"

and then at the radio station u had to search for clues and all of that to do objectives

[patent solstice]

Now that I understand where you are coming from, I agree.
However, the legacy build, as @marble geyser pointed out, had the tablet that displayed our objectives and we would gather clues about what we needed to do next.

[wicked tundra]

Y'know that's actually a good point. That's probably the reason the obj system was replaced with the "clues" system in the original build.

[patent solstice]

Which is why we need it back!

[marble geyser]

its cool to have the crc cuz we have a REASON to do stuff

while on nmrih1 survivors only searched for help cuz "man im so hungry"

[patent solstice]

True, but I feel like the map backstories was enough to justify the existence of those objectives.

[marble geyser]

thats was peak also

there wasnt that much of a lore yknow like how the virus started and all that

but maps had their specific lore

although you could resume most of the stories like
"we got rescued, everything went downhill and now we gotta go"

[autumn wigeon]

Just use the voice lives to hunt either crc operative or Sam talking to hint players

[patent solstice]

The clues system is way more engaging than a singular voice line.

[marble geyser]

like literally instead of having a voice telling you what to do

you have to explore and find out by yourself

[autumn wigeon]

No I mean your actually crc responder takes note of things in the environment with key triggers to hint players

[patent solstice]

Brayden, the way you worded has me discombobulated.

[autumn wigeon]

Auto correct is ass

[patent solstice]

Oh. XD

[lethal bridge]

✅

[mossy dirge]

I wish

[alpine crypt]

I completely agree that the current survivor system needs to be reworked. But, from the ground up like you suggested may not be needed, ambient comments are a nice touch, but removing traits, perks and bonuses from characters would push it more towards personal skill and return NMRIH to a survival game and not an RPG game.

[patent solstice]

Lad, your comment confused me.
It sounds you're in favor, but also against it?

[alpine crypt]

Im agreeing, but what I understood from your post is your talking about a complete rework, I agree it needs changing, but a teardown like you mentioned (or how I understood it) may not be needed. My statement of removing traits and perks is referring to individual characters, so they are more akin to NMRIH1

[patent solstice]

No. It's not a complete rework of the current system.
The reason I'm no longer advocating for responders to be replaced for survivors is because it would take too much developer time and multiple other things would have to get changed which could take who knows how long.
This post is about creating a separate survivor mode.