NMRIH2 Skill Tree - A Discussion About Making the Perk System Better

[minor snow]

Hello everyone.
In my recent discussion, linked here: https://discord.com/channels/211900829307895819/1373419191952080956, I talked about keeping the loadouts and removing the perk system since the previous build of NMRIH2 had the former, but not the latter. However, not only have I seen people advocate for various perks to be reworked to be more grounded, but also advocated for a reworked perk system. In this discussion, alongside the addition of lore documents, unlockable cosmetics, etc, I want to go over what I had in mind with the skill tree and how it can work with NMRIH2.

The Outlast Trials, a game I bring into conversations like this, is, in my opinion, a good example of a game that has multiple skills, known in-game as amps, but limiting players to how many they can take for the sake of experimentation. In two of the images below, we can these amps. One image displays the amount of amps of a certain category and the other displays the loadout where we can see a maximum of three amps; one from each category. I was thinking that NMRIH2's skill tree could work something similar to this with a couple of changes.

The way I had the system in my head was the following:

• The skill tree is divided in multiple horizontal rows consisting of three or four perks per row.
• A fresh responder starts with zero perks. To unlock the first row of perks, you have to complete your first successful extraction. Once successful, the game will give you the option to pick only one out of the three or four perks.
• Once you made your final selection, the perk you chose becomes unlocked while the other perks become locked.
• Completing objectives grants us XP, but not credits. Credits can only be gained when we level up.
• Collecting resources grants us the ability to spend them on slowly upgrading our perk from normal to expert, similar to how in the first Dead Island, we gained one skill point and we could fully upgrade one skill until maxed out.

Continued

• We can only have one expert perk per row. Additionally, we can only have two expert perks in total.
• Every row of three or four perks in randomized.
• Once we level up and obtain credits, those credits can be used to give the player the option to try another perk in the same row.
• Once selected, the new perk becomes unlocked, while the previous one becomes locked while saving any progression you had when you allocated resources.
• In addition to the credits, when we level up, we also unlock our second horizontal row of three or four perks. However, the second, third, fourth row, etc, will only have one perk unlocked to use. To unlock the other perks of those rows, you need to keep leveling up until all are unlocked. This mechanic keeps repeating every time we level up.
• The same rules of picking a perk, unlocking it, locking other perks, still follows.
• If you have an excess amount of resources, those resources you didn't spend can also go towards your account XP to level up and unlock more stuff.
• Once you have one expert perk, and you desire to upgrade another perk to its expert version, you can allocate credits to the new perk and start again. The previous expert perk goes back to being a normal perk and becomes locked.

Continued

With this in mind, this could be a good blueprint to a better perk system that not only has more grounded perks, but also a better balance to make sure that your fate isn't fully dependent on perks. What makes you survive is your own mechanical input.

The perks, if they stay, should only be there to enhance the quintessential NMRIH experience, not give you an edge that makes things easy.

Let me know what you guys think and what changes you would make or add.

Thank you.

[lunar meadow]

I was just going to comment about how the gun perks could be something more realistic. Like improved weapon handling... i.e. faster and/or steadier ADS, higher accuracy while moving, quicker reload speeds, reduced recoil climb, more effective rifle butt/pistol whip, etc.

While I do really enjoy skill trees, and I believe your idea could work... I think it also introduces some other problems.

Mainly, it could either improve or unbalance the entire gameplay loop depending on how well it’s tuned. What you're suggesting sounds flexible on paper, but in practice, it runs the risk of creating “optimal builds” that everyone flocks to, especially if certain perks are clearly stronger or more universally useful. That kills variety and player expression fast. The devs would have to spend a lot of time making sure no single path becomes a dominant meta, which is way harder when you have upgradeable perks and a layered progression system. In other words, the balance would have to be absolutely airtight, otherwise, it’ll turn into a min-maxing arms race where only a few builds actually matter. With the current perk system, it encourages more improvisation and varied playstyles, potentially keeping it more interesting in the long run and being easier to manage for the devs.

[elder hound]

the problem with the current perk system is that in the long term wont be suitable for more perks , i can see perk reroll aliviating most of the problems that i have with the current system though

[minor snow]

Do you think this could be alleviated if each row of three to four perks is randomized for each responder just like we have three randomized perks per slot now?

[lunar meadow]

It depends entirely on how the re-rolls are implemented. If they're rare and still randomized, they keep things fresh and adaptable. If they're frequent or targeted, they start to undo the benefits of the current system and edge back into min-max territory.

[minor snow]

Also remember @lunar meadow that I'm also finished with a perk rework list.

[lunar meadow]

Yeah, I definitely think that could help keep builds more varied and discourage min-maxing since no one would be guaranteed acccess to the same combinations.

[minor snow]

Gotcha. Let me add that to the list.

[lunar meadow]

Also, I was just thinking... what if we just had perks for certain ammo types? This would remove the problem of confusing and cluttered inventories while still remaining relatively immersive.

That might be too strong, though.

[minor snow]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qb-3kl9k19Yivg-bdGxr8xX9nYYIRSofDBptiDN421I/edit?usp=sharing

[minor snow]

@lunar meadow Do share what you think of the list.

[lunar meadow]

I’m on board with a lot of these ideas. A small correction on the FMJ vs. HP rounds. HPs are the ones that expand on hit causing more damage to fleshy targets. FMJs are your standard rounds that penetrate better than HPs but don’t expand. They’re kind of the middle ground between hollow points and true AP rounds.

Only ones I'm not a huge fan of are 5, 23, 24, and 25. I get wanting to preserve difficulty, but some form of progression or build variety can still exist, otherwise, it risks narrowing viable playstyles too much. And if we can just shoot ourselves while downed, we might rarely get to see our teammates actually turn into zombies.

[elder hound]

you should put that doc in read only , for security

[minor snow]

I understand your point, but for me those perks are just, “Oh, increased health,” “Oh, increased stamina,” with no downside.
The new perks that add more health and stamina but decrease your backpack weight capacity are great.

My whole perspective when it comes to perks is that they should be a balance between realism and idealism. They should enhance the experience, not give us magic powers.

[lunar meadow]

True. My idea was essentially that some characters may be more athletic and muscular, resorting in higher fortitude, stamina, or melee damage. I'm totally down for introducing disadvantages for each of these, though. Here are some of my ideas for pairs:

High Melee Damage
Slow Attack Speed

Fast Attack Speed
Low Melee Damage

High Carry Capacity
Low Stealth

High Stealth
Low Carry Capacity

High Health
Low Stamina Regen

High Stamina Regen
Low Health

High Knockback
Low Stamina Pool

High Stamina Pool
Low Knockback

[lunar meadow]

Also, I'd make the advantages a little proportionately higher than the disadvantages to make them still feel like perks. What do you think? @minor snow

[minor snow]

Some are good, some I’m not a fan of.
I understand that shooting ourselves while down can decrease the likelihood of seeing our teammates turning, this was mostly suggested by me to bypass certain things like bugs. However, if a devour mechanic is implemented, maybe allowing players to shoot them selves while down may not be necessary.

[minor snow]

Update.
Question to everyone. What do you guys think of this idea that could be added to the skill tree?

Instead of unlocking a row of perks every time you level up, you only unlock one perk per level up until you complete the row.

Thoughts?

[opal carbon]

Damn, Here I wasted like 3 hours writing a post to complain about perks when there was one here already. We need more engagement with perk post to show the balance team we are unsatisfied.

[minor snow]

My list isn’t complete though. Just needs one more perk rework and it’s good to go.

[minor snow]

Update: Made a change in the way perks unlock via level ups.