#Melee system feedback

55 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

obtuse pasture
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It has a lot of room for improvement.

#1 thing I hate is that clicking attack while already in an attack animation, will queue up the next attack automatically. It just feels awful, and leads to unintended attacks and wasted stamina. Only let me start the next attack after the first has completed.

Stamina is depleted too quickly, and the cooldown between depleting stamina and it starting to regenerate is far too long - I don't think it should exist at all - your stamina was always regenerating in NMRiH1. Here, if you have more than one runner on you and you're alone, you're pretty much buggered. The push interrupts stamina regeneration too, and it buys you much less time than in the first game - there's little point in using it over swinging an additional time.

It means you unavoidably deplete your stamina, usually multiple times - and then have to wait for it to regenerate mid-combat - which just isn't fun to me.

Where in NMRiH1 you only ever fully ran out of stamina if you were over-extending yourself or being pushed very hard. As long as you were pacing yourself, taking short breaks between your swings, you could stay in the fight indefinitely. Pushing was also much less costly. The weapons also had widely varying stamina costs vs damage, which made them feel distinct.

I've tried the large wrench, tire iron, mallet and pipe. The pipe seemed the most reliable, if not about equal to tire iron + mallet. The large wrench didn't do anywhere near enough additional damage over any, to justify its higher stamina use and slower attack speed.

I also really don't like that I can't continue charging my charged attack, and that it's released automatically. Let me keep it wound up until I actually decide to swing. Make damage and stamina consumption scale with charge length.

All told - again, go with how it worked in NMRiH1 "but better". Current system feels trash.

Further reading: https://discord.com/channels/211900829307895819/1298378303962615880

summer osprey
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Is it just me or it kind of feels that you're able to hit zombies from a large distance away? Like with the pipe I'm able to kill zombies while being at least a few feet away from their hitbox. But in most classic zombie games, including nmrih. You have to have direct contact as in you must get up close to accurately hit the zombie.

obtuse pasture
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I don't know, the range seems fine to me - maybe the FOV makes it look weird for you

summer osprey
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yeah perhaps, It just felt strange as if I was too far despite connecting with the zombie. Probably just on my end I guess

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I'll mess around with fov

unkempt echo
obtuse pasture
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I think one of the most dissatisfying aspects about melee right now is that if you're engaging in it, there is always, necessarily going to be a window where you can't attack or defend yourself, for each zombie you're trying to kill. Where in NMRiH1, if you managed your stamina and timing of your attacks and shoves well, you could easily stay afloat. It's only when things got a bit desperate - or when you were being completely reckless - that you found yourself running out and unable to attack.

unkempt echo
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i think the big reason for that is all melee weapons are weak.
A sledge hammer has the same impact as a pool noodle.
and your character apparently has the stamina of a 90 year old.

obtuse pasture
# unkempt echo i think the big reason for that is all melee weapons are weak. A sledge hammer h...

It's not just a question of their power - too much and it risks trivialising the whole game - though some could certainly stand to be buffed. It's more that the game straight up holds you back from actively fighting them, instead of making it based on your skill and stamina management.

Right now there's no stamina management, only depletion. You have to keep swinging or that zombie's gonna hit you, but the game don't let you do it.

unkempt echo
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yea it needs some skill based mechanics. Like timing your blocks and swings, aiming for different body parts to stun or disable.
But also some weapons NEED a huge buff. If you hit a zombie with a two handed 20kg sledgehammer on the head, they should get knocked down from the impact alone, if not die from getting their head cracked open.

summer osprey
hushed forge
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My problem is the lack of defensive options for a game where zombies basically warp to you with lunge attacks. If you do not have stamina, there is no other way to avoid taking damage from them. If I could utilize good movement to avoid damage from lunge attacks (such as strafing) it wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Most of the melee weapons are useless compared to Sledge/Axe in terms of stamina to DPS. I wish all of the weapons were on a somewhat similar level to NMRIH 1 where each one has it's own niche to fill in how effective it is to deal damage (with some weapons trading wide swings or attack speed for more dps and vice versa). Melee in general in NMRIH 2 just feels like I am throwing the match for myself.

maiden bloom
hushed forge
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there was a huge decision to be made between what melee weapons to use even though most either 1 or 2 shot zombies:

  • What is the swing pattern like?
  • Stamina usage?
  • Damage? 1 or 2 shot?
  • Swing speed?

All of these mattered tremendously in NMRIH 1. In NMRIH 2, melee weapon advancement feels purely like trying to increase DPS.

In NMRIH 2; 1-Handed weapons suck ass, even with skills to increase their power. The best 1h melee so far is either Crowbar or Tomahawk. 2-Handed weapons include Fire Axe and Sledgehammer, which are arguably the best melee weapons in the game. If your going for a melee playstyle, you are probably ALWAYS going to choose 2-handed skills.

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Also, the swing patterns of weapons in NMRIH 2 do not really match the animations.

maiden bloom
hushed forge
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Even though the melee combat in NMRIH 1 was simple to learn, it still had a lot of depth.

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I think what is funny is that Project Zomboid combat is more loyal to NMRIH than NMRIH 2 is.

gilded bison
maiden bloom
dense sun
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  • Having double the amount of stamina would probably be perfect + an easy fix most likely.

  • Ability to hold power/heavy attack like in the first game. So we can decide when to release the attack instead of awkwardly timing it with the spasming zombies.

These little but big changes would already bring me back to playing the game. Even with the fact of the broken runner zombies at the moment.

vestal reef
storm hazel
obtuse pasture
storm hazel
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isn't that how it is currently then? i mean.. you can shove, hit, shove hit.. take a break/reposition.. shove hit.. gawd its terrible at nightmare 8 zones

vestal reef
storm hazel
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the stamina perks help a lot for this. i like it

vestal reef
storm hazel
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remove the perks/skills mechanic - really.

vestal reef
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By the looks of it they won't be a problem even if the stamina is increased

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we'll see now with the new patch that mentioned they increased the fighting stamina

storm hazel
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more of a balance issue atm, imo - which i'm sure is probably meant to encourage finding teammates.. which i would actually prefer because it would likely slow people who like to just rush an extraction

vestal reef
obtuse pasture
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From #📢┃announcements message

Stamina tuning to allow for more melee weapon swings (depending on the weapon)
Prime / 'Red Eyes' zombies now require less headshots in all situations.
This is a start, but nowhere near enough to make the melee combat actually feel good or lend it any real depth.

vestal reef
wide gate
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To me, there are a few things that need to be changed to make the current system better:

-The ability to hold a charged attack

-Shoving shouldn't take stamina

-Weapon classes (light, medium, and heavy) should be made to feel as distinct as possible, as they feel too similar now.

hushed forge
clever spindle
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The developers always say they want a realistic world and game, but the melee is so unrealistic: slow and almost useless. Except with a bat, that's quite good. I wouldn't have a problem with melee if I could hit faster, like in the real world, and hit more (more stamina). Also, the pushback does not seem to work well every time. Maybe the servers cause many issues, but the melee now is annoying, and players just run and shoot if they can.

mortal flicker
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The more control you have over your melee the better

obtuse pasture
# hushed forge - Holding charged attacks isn’t really needed. - Shoves should take stamina by ... 
Holding charged attacks isn’t really needed.

No, it is. Our arms aren't spring-loaded - we can raise a bat or whatever ready to swing and hold it there for as long as we have the energy, which is usually quite a while - and we choose when to swing. I've yet to hear a compelling reason for why the game should be any different.

Automatically releasing charged attacks is simply inauthentic, and more importantly - unintuitive and shallow.

There was an element of strategy with NMRiH1's melee system - the longer you charge your swing, the more damage it will do but the more stamina it drains. Depending on the situation and which weapon you're using, it might be more advantageous to charge your attacks as much as you can - or, repeatedly make heavy attacks with minimal charge. This is especially pronounced in Nightmare mode where zombie health is doubled.

NMRiH2's melee system completely lacks any such depth, and the inability to hold your charged attacks is just a part of it.

Shoves should take stamina by default but I think there should be an item to remove the cost.

The issue with pushing currently is that it interrupts stamina regen, triggering the cooldown - it competes too hard against the stamina cost of melee attacks, vs overall stamina to be at all useful or viable; you're better off just attacking an additional time.

Conversely, an item or perk that removes push stamina cost would be overpowered, because the cooldown between pushes is very short. You'd just be able to spam F and the zombies would never be able to grab you. Stamina management is an interesting and engaging mechanic that adds elements of risk and reward - especially when coupled with a granular charged attack system like the first game. Take out the cost/risk, and it trivialises those choices.

vestal reef
dense sun
vestal reef
dense sun
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its just like chivalry combat. I hope they fix that too, cuz we're not playing chivalry!

vestal reef
desert hollow
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I'm hoping this has been able to talk about in this part of discord

dense sun
vestal reef
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Literally everyone wants it back

obtuse pasture
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Revisiting this over a year later cause the same issues more or less persist. I'm glad heavy attacks are at least not forced to release after X time, but it's still far from satisfactory.

NMRiH1's melee felt fun and satisfying because as long as you were being methodical, it was reliable, consistent - and importantly, responsive.
Each weapon had a "light" swing which was quick to execute, could hit multiple targets, but was limited in damage and drained stamina quickly; and a heavy attack which was less costly on stamina in most cases, would enable you to one-shot zombies - even on nightmare - as long as you were accurate.

What made it really work was damage output vs stamina economy. A charged "heavy" attack didn't automatically do maximum damage - you had to hold the charged attack for several seconds - which in turn, made it deplete more stamina on releasing the swing. You could charge it for the minimum time and still have a decent chance of staggering a target and dealing decent damage - or spend more time and stamine charging to reliably one-shot or deal maximum damage, depending on weapon.

Meanwhile, use of the "light" attack was strategic - choosing to sacrifice a lot of stamina to hit multiple zombies or quickly finish one, dealing a fixed amount of damage, when you know you can afford it. Additionally, most weapons had a decent chance to stagger zombies even if their damage wasn't fatal, particularly with charged attacks.

Your stamina was also always recharging unless you were sprinting or making a swing, so you could start charging your attack whilst "resting", letting you cushion the cost of the swing.

The shove was also far more reliable, but very timing-dependent - if you missed or mis-timed, you could easily be grabbed and bitten.

Admittedly it wasn't very intuitive, and it was far from flawless. Nevertheless, it felt far more visceral, rewarding and dependable than NMRiH2's.

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For one, the tendency for "light" attacks and shoves to queue, and for charged "heavy" attacks and kicks simply not registering the input following other attacks makes it feel clunky and unreliable at best.

Light and heavy attacks don't feel particularly distinct from one another. On balance the heavy attacks feel less-than worthwhile, rarely one-shotting zombies without pertinent skills - especially for the lower-tier weapons. The main thing is, they seem to deal a fixed amount of damage - rather than dealing variable damage depending on how long you charged it - but interrupt your stamina regeneration during their long wind-up leaving you open to attack.

The swing path varies a lot between weapons, some swinging above or to the side of the centre by a significant margin, making them feel inconsistent and unintuitive.

And as I've said before - the grab QTE is shit. Either you're grabbed without stamina and you invariably get bit - or you had stamina left and it's trivial to escape - it feels pointless. The first game was similar in that regard - except it didn't feel the need to lock you into an awkward animation or force you to mash a button - it simply stopped you moving, and either you shove and break the grab, or you don't/can't and get bit. Simple as.

I'm not saying all of this should be replicated 1-for-1 - in NMRiH2, the number of zombies you have to/should fight at a given moment varies quite a lot more - and being able to consistently, reliably one-shot them with even basic weapons would probably be too powerful for early-round.

Even if the clunk and jank were eliminated, it seems like melee will always feel like shit unless you're using certain perk/weapon combos - it should feel intuitive, reliable and satisfying regardless, with perks making it just that bit easier.