#Calibre-specific weapons/ammo

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I'm not a fan of generic ammo-types in most cases - it's especially disappointing here, since ammo by calibre was a core mechanic in NMRiH1. If I only had one wish for this game, it's for calibre-specific weapons and ammo to be brought back.

NMRiH 2's firearm ammo types have been almost entirely homogenised. Pistol, Magnum, Light Rifle, Heavy Rifle and Shotgun - 5 ammo-types.

In NMRiH 1, each weapon used ammo of a specific calibre - for example, you needed 9mm for the M9, Glock and MP5, but for the Mac-10 and M1911, you needed .45 ACP - whilst the M16 used 5.56, etc; 8 types.

This was a mechanic that rewarded teamwork, coordination and good resource-management - deciding among yourselves who will use which weapons and get what ammo - or not, and suffering the consequences. It also meant you often had to choose between ditching a better gun, for one that's worse but that you actually have ammo for - or, holding on to it and hoping to find more ammo for it around the next corner (or vice-versa).

Not to mention, it's more realistic, making the world more believable and immersive.

Conversely - with generic ammo types, the dynamics of ammo distribution - and the effect on teamwork and resource management - are diminished significantly, and that whole rewarding facet of coordination along with it.

There is no longer any incentive or reason for players to swap away from the most powerful weapons for their ammo-type; with only 5 of those, it's practically guaranteed you'll find enough to keep it running.

Coupled with weightless inventory (https://discord.com/channels/211900829307895819/1296214593764331530), this is one less factor that could help balance weapons against one another, and introduce more interesting choices through scarcity/commonality of a specific weapon's (or group of weapons') ammo-type.

Generally, survival-horror games are compelling because of their emphasis on resource-management - not in spite of it.

9mm_ammo.png
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next spire
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Conversely, with generic ammo types, the dynamics of ammo distribution are gone entirely, and that whole rewarding facet of coordination along with it.

"Gone entirely" wasn't the right phrase there, rather "oversimplified", perhaps to the point it might as well be. There is still a distinction between pistol/rifle etc; you can still run out of each, and presumably share it too.

However, it does just mean that if you're in a public lobby, being a selfish bugger and hoovering all the ammo is rewarded - where in NMRiH1, doing so meant carting around ammo you can't even use, taking up inventory space and slowing your movement speed whilst also depriving teammates.

Calibre-specific ammo naturally incentivised players towards sharing ammo - I can't use this so I might as well drop it. And it made it harder for greedy or inattentive players to hoard and burn through it all at the expense of everyone else.

The lowest difficulty could still have generic ammo to appease the few who will want to play the game and not get bodied, but who aren't invested enough to learn some simple resource management, or cooperative enough to be willing to share. Just remember, those people are by definition, not NMRiH's core fanbase.

long onyx
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long onyx
runic harbor
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And c'mon, having ammo types isn't that hardcore even for a person that doesn't know shit about guns
In 1 of 2 hours you learn or just ask a player

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Or play only melee

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# runic harbor I think that it should force you to play hardcore "Casual mode" with so many cor...

I wouldn't be mad at it, but at the same time - in general, the player having some control over the kind of experience they have is something I see as pretty much essential.

That said, I agree that learning/understanding that certain cartridges only go in certain guns isn't exactly a huge thing to demand of players. The people who enjoy the game enough in the first place will figure it out. To my mind, the whole point of NMRiH is a sense of realism/authenticity, and it'd be essential knowledge if the zombie apocalypse were to start tomorrow - especially if you live somewhere like the US.

runic harbor
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# runic harbor I mean I like sandbox options of course but still, some core features should sta...

Yeah I mean look at DayZ - its playercount on Steam (so not counting the console playerbase) peaked at 70,000.... this year - 10 years after its initial EA release, and 6 following its "full" release. It leans even harder into resource and ammo management by an order of magnitude - you have to fill the appropriate magazines with the appropriate loose rounds, and there are a fair few more cartridge types compared to NMRiH1. It's successful because of its relatively deep resource management, not in spite of it

runic harbor
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I like how the first game makes you play with all the weapons

next spire
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We can also look at one of the most popular extraction shooters, since NMRiH2 aims to be one - Tarkov not only has you loading specific magazines for specific weapons with the appropriate calibre - there are different cartridges in each calibre, and different types of magazine for each weapon.

I reject the notion that in order for a game to be successful or popular, it needs to have simple ammo management.

Once again, it's precisely this level of detail that makes these games compelling.

Just having ammo pools by calibre, with no magazine management - as opposed to the generic "pistol", "rifle" etc - is a very minor demand on the player, that does a lot to influence gameplay for the better in several ways.

worldly fable
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Agreed. Half the reason why guns in NMRiH feel so powerful, so useful, and so "Kicky", is because you need to make your ammo count.

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Congrats, you found ammo!

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Uh oh. wrong type.

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Finding ammo is hard enough, but finding the right type is insane.

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And I LOVE that.

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I think they should keep the old ammo system too.

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Your definately not alone on that.

next spire
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Had an idea about this. To satisfy more casual players for whom ammo-by-calibre would be too much of a challenge - restrict the given calibres and weapons that show up in lower difficulties/causal mode.

These would be chosen ranodmly. For example, one round I can only find 9mm pistols/SMG/Carbiness, 5.56 rifles, .308 scoped rifles. The next round I play, I only see .45 pistols/SMG/Carbines, 7.62x39 rifles and 7.62x54 scoped rifles.

I think we're all fine with all shotguns being 12ga, and there are a handful of other weapons present in NMRiH that have self-evident, unique ammo types - eg. bow, chainsaw, flaregun.

This enables new players to familiarise themselves with a small selection of weapons and ammo, and the mechanics around ammo management, scarcity and sharing - and will make it a bit more smooth as they're introduced to more diverse weapons and ammo across multiple rounds.

Within a given round, it would achieve the same effect as homogenised ammo for those inexperienced players, without imposing it on those for whom it'd diminish the challenge too much, who can stick to the standard/higher difficulty.

For a player working up through the difficulty levels, they will be more gradually introduced to the complete picture of ammo management. And otherwise, if they choose to stick with the more causal difficulty level(s), they don't have to deal with most of the challenges and difficulty of managing multiple different ammo-types.

Meanwhile, those of us who - without having played the game yet - would already know what ammo is required by a given weapon - can jump straight into that standard/higher difficulty mode, and have fun with the challenges and choices presented by having to manage a variety of specific ammo-types and the weapons that use them.

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I like how Helldivers 2 did it - There are 10 difficulty levels, each gradually escalating the number and types of enemies that will show up, along with the number and/or complexity of objectives. The player has to first complete a mission on the lower difficulty, to unlock the next (each of which offers greater reward) - which naturally encourages the players to improve at the game, or otherwise helps find the difficulty level most suited to them.

next spire
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For reference, this is the inventory shown in pre-release gameplay - there doesn't seem to be any encumbrance penalty as a consequence of hoarding ammo - you just find it, press E and it's yours - no thought required.

NMRIH2_Ammo2.webp
pine palm
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Each slot can only take a certain quantity tho, like, in the screenshot each slot can only hold 60 rifle ammo

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If you take more it uses an extra slot

next spire
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Certainly better than being able to stuff your pockets with an infinite number of rounds, or having an arbitrary cap on each ammo type - but I'd find it aggravating if I have to drop that stack of 5 extra rounds because it's taking up one of those slots - NMRiH1 was more granular and it worked just fine. Better, even. Particularly when it comes to accounting for the difference in size and weight between a single bullet and an entire weapon.
Related: https://discord.com/channels/211900829307895819/1296214593764331530

runic harbor
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Leaving this here for obvious reference

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true ocean
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I agree that having universal ammo types being exclusive to casual mode is the way to go. Classic and nightmare should unique ammo types.

dense river
# pine palm Each slot can only take a certain quantity tho, like, in the screenshot each slo...

Something I'd like to mention here; in the first game, if you have an M16A4 and 120 rounds of 5.56 in reserve, your inventory would be completely full. This not only means you can't carry ANYTHING ELSE, but your movement speed is also going to be horrible.

Contrast this with this screenshot, where I see:

  • An M4A1 with 225 rounds of 5.56x45mm
  • A Revolver with 60 rounds of .357
  • Hammer/Flashlight
  • A medkit and syringe
  • FOUR bandages
  • Some massive box of something

This is at least 3x the amount of gear you could hold in the first game, if not more.

pine palm
dense river
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If the ammo stays the same, you could cut the inventory to 4 quick slots and 4 reserve slots and I think that would be good

pine palm
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I dont know how it works then, i thought the quick slots are for guns

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So you cant just carry 12 aks on your backpack

dense river
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That way, you could hold a bunch of bullets if you want to, but you'll be missing out on medical items and other utilities

dense river
pine palm
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They are basically 4 extra slots to use

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Probably a change they could do is make rifles and shotguns to use 2 slots

dense river
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I don't really mind the bigger items still being one slot, because if they took up more than one we'll just be back to the machete/pistol meta

pine palm
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2 slots is still less punishing than nmrih1 rifle weights

dense river
pine palm
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If you had a pistol that shot 556 you would 100% switch to it tho

dense river
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Ofc, because the pistol weighs less AND you can use a flashlight with it.

I think just the advantage of the flashlight alone allows them to compete with the larger weapons in the sequel

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For example, Cry of Fear has some pretty good two-handed weapons, but the inability to use a flashlight with them almost make them unusable in the base campaign

pine palm
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Just max the brightness slider capyorange

dense river
runic harbor
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btw, they don't really need new boxes models

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They have them already

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at least some

true ocean
# runic harbor at least some

I would still love for them to be individually labeled, but they already confirmed that the ammo sharing and one ammo type not working with another gun is still in play.

runic harbor
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You can use pistol rounds in all the pistols (Except magnum)
but like I said, more calibers helps with the ammo scarcity and it adds to the resource management

true ocean
runic harbor
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I still think casuals will learn and adapt
the game is hardcore enough to make casuals don't play imo

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And makes the game more interesting imo, giving you more ways to play than just use the best gun

dense river
ember pumice
dense river
ember pumice
dense river
ember pumice
# dense river Just seems odd that there's five separate weapon calibers even with the simplifi...

Yeah I still wish there was specific calibers. 5.56, .45 ACP, 9mm Luger, .357 Magnum, .308, 7.62x39, 12 gauge. I think they could even go more in depth with different types of shotgun ammo like slugs versus buckshot. I also think it'd be neat to add in .38 special revolvers and .38 special ammo. .38 special chambers and fires safely out of .357 magnum revolvers so if you start with a .38 you can only take .38 ammo, but if you find a .357 mag in match, now you can loot 2 different types of ammo. I think that'd a neat addition because to my knowledge, no game has done that before

next spire
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next spire
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To summarise those couple minutes: "There are 5 ammo types; you still need to be strategic about which ammo you pick up, share ammo you can't use etc. in order to be efficient"

And that's great. It just seems like a majority of us would prefer some more depth to that mechanic overall, while the rest appear to be indifferent. I've been banging on about this for over a week now, and I've yet to see anyone say that they'd actually prefer simplified ammo types.

Just like Jae said she found out the hard way, you can't use pistol rounds in a magnum revolver, and was taught intuitively that she'd need magnum rounds - a given player in NMRiH1 is intuitively taught that they can't fire 9mm and .45 out of their .357 revolver.

The principle is the same. I think to oversimplify this to such a degree, is to vastly underestimate the degree to which the average player can learn, be taught, and adapt.

And that's without NMRiH1 doing a particularly good job of communicating which ammo goes with which gun - all you have is the ammo-count UI showing the ammo icon, which by default, doesn't show all the time. A way of bridging the gap is to have the information more readily and clearly available and communicated to the player.

I think we can take it as a given, based on how this discussion has been practically unanimous leading up to release - that NMRiH's core fanbase (ie. people who are already here) values the depth added to the game - its resource, inventory and ammo management - by including a wider variety of ammo types.

We are more or less a known quantity; this is one of the things that attracted many of us to the franchise in the first place, and set it apart from its contemporaries. Compromising on it in order to supposedly appeal to the more casual gamer, is a gamble. I can imagine it making no difference to the casual gamer, because they might already see the gameplay format as too punishing/demanding.

I suppose we'll see how all that chalks up from Tuesday on.

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I think to oversimplify this to such a degree, is to vastly underestimate the degree to which the average player can learn, be taught, and adapt.

Meanwhile, those of us who value the depth and realism added to original game by calibre-specific ammo (and/or those who would value it in this iteration), are left disappointed.

true ocean
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# true ocean Which is also why someone brought up a good solution to this; add individual amm...

I've suggested the same thing - just with the "casual" mode using a limited, random selection of single calibres per weapon type for each run.

Eg. Run 1, I only find M9s/G17s/MP5s & 9mm, 5.56 and AR-15s etc; Run 2, I only find 1911s, Mac-10s and .45 ammo; 7.62x39 and CZ/SKS etc.

This would keep the game mechanic consistent across difficulty modes, and help casual players to learn which calibres go with which guns (priming them for a transition to classic) - whilst protecting them from the ooh so scary, slight increase in complexity from dealing with all the potential different weapons and repsective calibres - without completely preventing them from finding and using all the weapons in the game.

next spire
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And that's without NMRiH1 doing a particularly good job of communicating which ammo goes with which gun - all you have is the ammo-count UI showing the ammo icon
That is, other than the real-world, transferrable knowledge of what guns use what ammunition

ripe river
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PLEASE

next spire
next spire
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Bump for visibility, since this seems to be important to many more people than just me

true ocean
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I forgot a whole other game close in theme to NMRIH that also has fairly complex ammo-management - Project Zomboid. The casual/hardcore settings of which, is just the difference between having to first load magazines with loose rounds - or being able to reload guns from a pool of loose rounds.

Besides that, all weapons take ammo of a specific calibre, with 7 different calibres. Amongst the most popular mods for it, are some that further increase the diversity of weapons and ammo types.

Again - a player who'd be put off by this, would most likely be just as easily put off by all the other mechanics and challenges within a game of this kind; perma-death, supply/ammo scarcity, generally punishing combat, etc.

It seems Zomboid is doing just fine, "in spite" of having this same mechanic. It's almost as though the audience for this kind of game, tends to appreciate this kind of depth.

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