Ambusher Rework Suggestion

[safe stump]

Currently, Ambusher is just Skirmisher but on Vanguard.
It has 7 throwing knives and headshot bonus.

There have been some attempts to bring the lethal and interesting identity as an ambusher into focus via the backstab on native weapons and the execution perk, however that hasn't really gone far enough. Part of that is due to throwing knives being enough power that they restrict the types of changes which can be made to Ambusher, in particular the inclusion of interesting and fun buffs to make the class into one more distinct and lethal.

My suggestions are:

1. Remove throwing knives and headshot bonus. These are archer tools, not the tools of someone who is currently stabbing you in the back for 150 damage.

2. Provide a passive which mutes many prominent audio cues for Ambusher. Ambusher should not make automatic vocal callouts. Ambusher should not have footstep noises. Ambusher should not be screeching at the top of its lungs when you hit the special button. The sound you hear should be the ragdoll hitting the floor with your dagger implanted.

3. Provide a significant passive movespeed buff limited to native ambusher weapons to the class. It could be as high as 15-20%. It is imperative that this be native to not accidentally unleash vanguards moving at faster than devastator speeds with a 2h spear in hand. That would be pure evil. This is supposed to be fun and enable amazing footwork which makes up for the short length of the weaponry Ambusher has available.
   What I do not want to see is proliferation of the MAA dodge cooldown buff. That isn't a tool for weaving through crowds like no other class can and swinging into backs along the way before players can even realize that it was you.

4. Limit the execution perk to native weapons. This whole suggestion is about focusing on centering lethality, mobility, and subtlety upon the Ambusher class's core kit, and to make more distinct, interesting, and powerful an Ambusher who embraces that kit.

@wheat flume crime committed

[wheat flume]

God dammit you better not let mods see this lol

[safe stump]

After some consultation with Dave there were further good ideas:

1. Ambushers should have the fist special property which allows sprint to continue after special. Perhaps swings with native weapons on ambushers in general should not consume sprint points?
   Reducing the movespeed penalty while blocking as an ambusher slips away would be fun as well and enable better disengages than the pitifully short weapons would traditionally allow. Full holding block would still obviously nuke your sprint points and require re-acceleration from base speed. This isn't meant to let people sprint while blocking.

2. Ambushers could, rather than a base movespeed bonus MAA style, be provided superior sprint point accumulation/rate of movespeed acceleration to the movespeed cap. Base movespeed improvements offer strafe advantages/are omnidirectional though which are greatly beneficial to working swings into the backstab region.

3. The backstab region may need to be widened. My opinion is that that's a lever to keep in sight for later if the movespeed buff is considered and included, as the movespeed should enable better utilization of the existing backstab region.

4. Torn Banner thinks/may think every class needs a tertiary, but 4 throwing knives, the standard non-skirmisher/ambusher count is too many. Perhaps swap out for mallets or throwing knives or give ambusher a unique lower throwing knife count? Spike trap is the best traversal tool in the game even if it's not fully thematically appropriate, but from a gameplay standpoint I consider traversal tools for the ambusher class a good fit.
   From a balance standpoint, I believe my suggestion removes the necessity of a tertiary entirely if this isn't actually a hard rule.

Also, here's a bit of summary from Dave, attached.

[honest sandal]

Do not remove throwing knives they’re fun

[safe stump]

One other possible longer term consideration is the reduction of the stagger duration and effect of getting countered on ambusher while performing a light swing, as that would have significant benefits for enabling an ambusher to weasel their way through moshpits.

I don't think it'd be in scope for an initial rework though necessarily.

[honest sandal]

Does this mean I can make a Skirmisher rework thread too

[safe stump]

you should, and TBS should probably migrate the high count throwing knives to skirmisher as an optional alternative to spike traps/bear trap if this goes through

[unkempt python]

1) Remove throwing knives and headshot bonus.

Big W☝️
Making ambusher gameplay more focused on backstabbing and less focused on spamming projectiles is a big improvement

[hot radish]

throwing knives shouldnt be removed, fundamentally changes the class

[safe stump]

that's the point of the suggestion, that Ambusher is fundamentally a Skirmisher and not an Ambusher, and that it should be fundamentally changed into an Ambusher.

[unkempt python]

for the better. Good ambusher players will enjoy a class that's stronger in melee and projectile spamming shitters will have to play skirmisher and use one of the teams archer slots

or play double dane axe raider lol

[hot radish]

meh i disagree

that's all

[main gull]

Not only are throwing knives fun, but they balance the class out. The weapons are super short so you need throwing knives.

Also who is vanguards biggest nemesis? The archer. How are you supposed to deal with archers? I'm a katar enjoyer and I will bring out knives to deal with archers.

[honest sandal]

Got a problem with Skirmishers, huh?

[cerulean kite]

throwing knives might be fun but they serve no purpose on ambusher

[hot radish]

they deal damage

[cerulean kite]

but backstabs should deal the most damage

not throwing knives to the head

[honest sandal]

backstabs are easier

[unkempt python]

I got a problem with everyone relying on projectiles as their main way of dealing damage in a medieval slasher game 💩

[main gull]

Yes they do, archers

[safe stump]

That's the whole dilemma here.
Throwing knives currently balance the class out, consuming any power budget which could otherwise be available to balance the class out in a melee context.
Balancing based on factors outside of the melee context, throwables specifically, is what is supposed to be the unique theming of the Skirmisher subclass, and Ambusher currently encroaches upon that, so this thread is about the merits of attempting to split from that and what could be done to make Ambusher act in melee effectively as befits its name.

[cerulean kite]

prioritize flanking from behind and not pressing G from far away

[dense notch]

I can get behind the audio cue removals of the passive siege equipment deaths, maybe even the leaping strike but absolutely do not get rid of footsteps

That's too much flavor in favor of balance/gameplay balance. Encourage players to listen to footsteps instead and look behind them to prevent the back stabs. That makes it an actual skill trade off instead of 1 shot mini-game

[cerulean kite]

flank them, most of them have tunnel vision

[hot radish]

i like ambusher because it's a fast vanguard 1h, i dont want to have to play as a perma flanker only

[honest sandal]

Keep crying, I'll give you a throwing axe to wipe thy tears!

[hot radish]

it wont be versatile without knives it'll be just a backstabber

[unkempt python]

I'll shove my halberd up your ass and make you squeal

[honest sandal]

Promise?

[unkempt python]

pinky promise

[honest sandal]

🫦

[cerulean kite]

ambusher should also get either a different or a unique ability

[main gull]

This game is a casual game, if you want to play a melee slasher without projectiles just wait for Mobius

[cerulean kite]

medkit on vanguard makes no sense lol

[honest sandal]

I agree with this

[unkempt python]

true, removing footsteps is too crazy

[honest sandal]

Medkit is so bland

[safe stump]

They can't bring back smoke bombs because they decided the game is 64p and that has been a problem for Ambusher's theming as well.

smoke bombs are implemented in-game

[honest sandal]

Add pocket sand, then

https://tenor.com/view/king-of-the-hill-dale-gribble-pocket-sand-pocket-sand-gif-3699662

[cerulean kite]

add a flashbang :p

im trying to think of what ability ambusher could have

quiver and medkit do not fit it

[safe stump]

I agree there. Footsteps aren't all that loud and are a reasonable enough giveaway to keep compared to the stupidly loud other stuff.

[cerulean kite]

maybe give ambusher an ability called lightfoot

temporarily muffles footsteps?

not completely remove but quieter

[honest sandal]

Give ambusher a romulan battle cloak ability

[main gull]

I'm a 1st main and taking away footsteps would be terrible

[unkempt python]

give ambusher an ability called shit-blade, where he grabs a handful of poop from his pants and smears it on his blade, inflicting poison DOTs on whoever his blade touches for as long as the ability is active

[safe stump]

it already isn't versatile with knives

that's part of the problem in the first place

[honest sandal]

Now there you go, just make throwing knives his special

[safe stump]

the optimal way to play ambusher as Dave puts it is just to play turret mode

you play close enough to the melee that players naturally isolate to chase you, kill them in a duel, and kill random low health players with knives

the intended consequence of the suggestions here is basically to enable ambushers to flank effectively, but also to have the tools required to weave through moshpits better than other classes in exchange for having short weapons with small effect areas

[honest sandal]

Yeah so make the amubsher's special a crossbow loaded with an explosive bolt

[safe stump]

I don't think even if the most powerful combination of suggestions was fully implemented that ambusher would become a top TO class, but it would certainly be a lot of fun to play as well as better than the current iteration of ambusher while offering a niche playstyle not effectively represented in-game due to the lack of viability of the shortest weapons, and that's all I was really hoping to suggest.

[fringe fable]

ambusher's special should be a combat roll

i think throwing knives are key to the class for finishing off people on death's door that are trying to escape for mechanical and flavor reasons; they're supposed to be assassins with no witnesses. i'd be in favor of reducing their max to 5, though

[main gull]

Ambusher is really strong if you play it right. I was playing with a level 1000, Brunswick, or something like that last night. And he was top of the leader board

Yeah you can't take away our assassin throwing knives gameplay. I can see making jump cost no stamina or something

[oblique widget]

You can reduce the knives or reduce the impact of them. I like the ideas in the OP

[safe stump]

everything is really strong in pub TO. I was topping boards just fine yesterday on cudgel ambusher and I had to get on various longer weapons to exist in the MFL. I don't think pub TO is a good measure of the potential of a class or weapon beyond that it has reached baseline.

[oblique widget]

I think the idea being challenged is that ambusher without throwing knives is useless, and so that just becomes the main part of their gameplay which is pretty silly

[main gull]

No it's that throwing knives are fun and this is a casual game

[oblique widget]

I can just as easily say backstabbing is more fun (which it is)

[safe stump]

it's that it's stupid to have two skirmisher subclasses

we have a class which should be fun backstabby gameplay and we have a class which should be fun throwing gameplay

and yet now we have two classes which are primarily throwing gameplay

do you see the problem?

[oblique widget]

Yeah I think the thread makes sense

Never really thought of it but the subclass is mainly just throwing knives

[safe stump]

and the subclass is primarily throwing knives because the limitations of the weapons are inappropriately compensated for

[oblique widget]

Yeah, backstabbing isn't even reliable. The hitbox is on it are completely broken

[cerulean kite]

unfortunately both ambusher and engineer receive no love or support from the devs :(

im still waiting for a new engineer weapon

[safe stump]

I think some of these suggestions might cause problems in a dueling context, but frankly this is a teamfighting game first and I want ambusher to be a respect-worthy melee combatant in the melee of the game in a way it just isn't right now

[honest sandal]

ambusher, skirmisher and engineer are hated by TB

[cerulean kite]

correct me if im wrong but footman hasn't gotten a new weapon

[honest sandal]

with ambusher being slightly less hated

[safe stump]

rapier

[oblique widget]

Rapier

[cerulean kite]

ah right the rapier, forgot

[safe stump]

cav sword

[cerulean kite]

hmm

[honest sandal]

not to mention next update knight and footman will gain access to more shields

[cerulean kite]

i just feel engineer needs a rework along with ambusher or something

[safe stump]

@strong goblet I know you like having fun melee combat with fewer projectiles. What is your take on these suggestions?

[oblique widget]

At least engineer gameplay is focused on playing as an engineer. I would not say that ambusher focuses on ambushing

[cerulean kite]

this is true

[safe stump]

I think they at minimum need to stop letting people jump over tenosian barricades.

[autumn void]

I could see it as a two part change. Give throwing knives + 1h to skirmisher, then rework ambusher to be more mobile/silent.

[cerulean kite]

i enjoy playing ambusher but the way to omptimally play it should be changed

[cerulean kite]

this too!

[honest sandal]

there should just be a fucking update dedicated to tweaking classes

[cerulean kite]

honestly yeah i was disappointed when i heard about the heavy crossbow not because it's overpowered or anything but because

they focus on adding new stuff, instead of changing or fixing what's wrong

and then eventually the new stuff gets broken or unbalanced

and then it's lopped into the same pile as problem #32 that's been broken since launch

[oblique widget]

Well the idea in the OP is pretty grand, so I don't think that they would be willing to consider it but it would cooler than current Ambusher

[storm mulch]

I would play tf out of ambusher if they did all that

[honest sandal]

@safe stump it almost reminds me of how they did Ninja in deadliest warrior

[safe stump]

Dave had kind of the same thought/also suggested having dodge become roll

[cerulean kite]

a lot of good suggestions never get looked at or implemented sadly

the game feedback forum is used more as a venting area than actually being able to change stuff in the game

from what i've seen

[safe stump]

it definitely depends. The stab change was a suggestion. This is also how we got the fps issues on stronghold addressed. Engineers pulling out barricades upon resupply is a misinterpretation of some engineer feedback. They definitely read the threads. It's just a matter of torn banner seeming to have a poor corporate structure which makes it difficult to get buy-in for benevolent changes

[main gull]

All of these changes would effectively nerf ambusher and would not be a good enough buff to compensate. Vanguard already has low hp and backstabbing is a niche and not as viable playstyle compared to knight class. Not to mention that you recieve more dmg from archers, but now you have no way to defend yourself against archers 40 meters away from you.

So now what you're left with is a shittier knight class that has become an archer punching bag

The only people left playing the class would be crazy people like me who enjoy katars

[honest sandal]

@hollow obsidian

[honest sandal]

ambusher without throwing knives:

[main gull]

The only reason I would be okay with the change is if ambusher got a good smoke bomb. Not some weak shit that only lasts for like 5 seconds and has a 2 foot radius

Or even worse if the smoke bomb was like EFT where it's only client side

[small dawn]

Throwing knives are designed for picking off low hp enemies and for distracting, I am against their removal.

Otherwise these changes are not bad.

[hollow obsidian]

Give ambusher pocket sand

[honest sandal]

some folks don't understand throwing stuff was common in the medieval era. source: me

[safe stump]

I'm not sure how it's nerfing ambusher to give ambusher the tools it needs to utilize its theoretically ungodly melee damage output. I think this would increase the player skill demand associated with ambusher, but it absolutely should be doing the opposite of reducing the class's peak effectiveness.

[strong goblet]

idk about the footspeed for duels and lts

[safe stump]

yeah that's where testing would be worthwhile. Duels less so, but LTS at least

duels are of lowest importance as a gameplay environment given the game is basically just made for teamfighting, and anything concerning could impact 20v20 as well

[strong goblet]

if the speed allows ambushers to make brainless switches then its a problem

like if htey're so fast they can just instantly swap with 1 counter or riposte

[safe stump]

MAA has 10% and the base movespeed isn't different on any other classes which is why I think 15% is a safeish bet, but 20% might be a little much

I think a 15% starting could be ok when tied to native weapons

the importance of tying to native weapons is to prevent it from being brainless

[honest sandal]

Keep throwing knives on Skirmisher or else

[main gull]

Because hp is arguably a better stat than movement speed, as movement speed is already pretty unrestricted in this game. In mord/chiv 1, overextending is punished a lot more so you have to be more methodical about positioning, and 1vX is more difficult.

Even as the knight class I can often times get myself out of a sticky situation in chiv 2. So in order to compensate for the lack of hp, you would have to have comically faster movement speed.

Not to mention that every class has a utility and all you're doing is taking away their utility and getting peanuts in return.

[small dawn]

did u mean ambusher

[honest sandal]

No

[strong goblet]

the movespeed is huge for neutral

15% would be probably ok with only native

actually

10% would be fine because vg has better stam than foot man

and can spam dodges better

[main gull]

I can see faster move speed being op for LTS. but I dont think it helps all that much in to

it also begs the question, how much easier would movement speed allow you to matrix/footwork away from swings. would that be skill or cheese?

[torpid shoal]

I thought MAA got a dodge cooldown buff, or am I just misremembering that?

[fringe fable]

they do, it's 50% reduced

but faster doesn't necessarily mean better

[wheat flume]

@safe stump So in VC and they discussed about allowing Ambusher to be in Desertion Zones Longer. So instead of 10 seconds maybe like 20. What you think?

[safe stump]

that's a pointless bandaid and is better fixed by actually fixing desertion zones

[wheat flume]

It would be a simpler thing to add while waiting on desertion zone fixing as changing it from 10 to 20 its quite ez and when they do fix it then they can change it back to 10.

[hollow obsidian]

"When they do fix it"

[wheat flume]

Excatly lol

[hollow obsidian]

It'll be fixed as soon as cross progression is added guys