Allow the dagger to cleave on heavies

[open vault]

There's no reason to do the weapon like this.
Dagger is already a very fun option and is very close to being a solid and competitive option for the Ambusher class which is basically just "short sword or hatchet" if you're picking for effectiveness, and generally short sword because the hatchet is genuinely too short.
Just let it cleave, please. It has hitstop already. It doesn't need super hitstop like knife.
This also distinguishes Dagger as a primary further from Knife.

[blazing moon]

But dagger is stabby

[solid silo]

I dont think this would help much, could potentially even hurt the weapon. Id personally rather have my next follow up move be faster due to stop on hit than be stuck in release. 1vX with dagger is already very unconventional, but what works is the stick-and-move style, cleaves would make that worse for hardly any benefit. The positioning of the enemy and yourself would have to be absolutely perfect to hit even 1 additional person.

[open vault]

dagger has range approximately similar on slash to the hatchet, and it has been trivial to impact multiple targets with hatchet even if you do have the downsides of too short range. The main reason to cleave isn't to maximize your damage output, but to maximize your initiative. Dagger's current 1vX playstyle would somewhat change if you could actually maximize initiative, but it wouldn't change the inherently bursty nature where you're looking to line people up on your stab or find spaces to lunge with your special in.

You also get to choose light slash as an option if you want hitstop which is why I noted cleave on heavy and not cleave on lights, as it's supposed to be both a downside and yet also a definitive part of the dagger playstyle. Hitstop also isn't a total downside in the case of 1v1s because it makes the input buffer work more consistently and lets you jab skip where other weapons simply fail to, so removing hitstop entirely from the dagger would be bad.

The goldilocks spot as I've considered it is to cleave on heavies only, basically.

dagger's extremely short range doesn't change your optimal 1vX if it can cleave too, as you're simply best suited to hopefully get people lined up and to fight 1v1s in order instead of fighting true 1vX because none of this gets rid of the extreme limitations the weapon will face regardless

[solid silo]

I just personally dont want this change. I drag the swings sometimes and want to immediately follow up after the hit, you even admit hatchets cleave is trivial and thats even with lights, so not seeing the benefit. Stop on hit improves your initiative in 1v1. The rare situation where you could use cleave to improve initiative with dagger will almost never happen

[open vault]

I said the range is in the too short range, not that the cleave is trivial. If hatchet didn't cleave it might actually be as bad as dagger is, and having the option to choose to cleave would be a significant buff to the dagger to put it at least nearly on par with hatchet if not short sword as an ambusher option. I'm just recommending in moderation to prevent it from losing its identity while being buffed in a manner it can be allowed to be buffed in.

the other reason the hatchet is better than the dagger is superior animation manip due to the longer release timeframe, but the short release is part of the "character" of the dagger and I'd rather not suggest changing that

[solid silo]

Heavys change the timing. It wouldnt be a choice, it would be a change. I just visualize it changing the dagger timing too much and making it feel slightly less stick-and-go. We can agree to disagree, just my opinion 😁

[open vault]

this would be a good thread to ping dave on as well if he wasn't banned

[blazing moon]

But Dave is racist

[open vault]

he's also one of the best ambusher players in the game and his feedback would likely be of some value

[blazing moon]

Yeah but he’s racist

[open vault]

he pretty much just agrees and agrees that it'd be a small change which isn't completely insignificant yet for the better

[open vault]

dave was banned for leaking as a tester, no need for further elaboration

[blazing moon]

oh no

[tawdry kraken]

I actually like dagger having hitstop

If I need to cleave you can slightly drag the stab but faster combo speed is really nice

[open vault]

that's why I think the suggestion can only really be applicable to heavies, having the option to go fast and hitstop is nice, but if you're pulling out a heavy you're slowing down enough that it's worth eating cancel to parry instead of hitstopping pace-wise in exchange for some more survival utility

[rigid flame]

As an ambusher main, no

[charred nacelle]

Yeah you'd think so except the cases where having a heavy slash cleave actually be good is only when youre fighting bad players, in which case you would win anyway by proper movement. Against actual good players what little chance you have to win with a dagger gets worse if you also remove the heavy slash mixup hitstop

[open vault]

@carmine dew and here's where the very last post before thread revival is objectively incorrect information 😂

players can only be so wrong before I stop replying

[slim osprey]

screw dagger

[open vault]

every fix to an ambusher weapon is a step closer to ambushers not needing to be skirmisher 2, vanguard boogaloo

[carmine dew]

They already are skirmisher 2, buffs help them actually melee and would help with how annoying dagger is.

But hey i dont mind playing a playstyle where you never see me coming and you instantly die because the lack of cleave forces me to rat.

At range or close

[carmine dew]

Then you should support this, it makes dagger less annoying vs single opponents where it matters. That hitstop is why you hate it so much (maybe), otherwise its no different than longsword or sword. Very similar speeds. You can facehug and be a dick with every fast weapon but i think dagger and pickaxe are worse just because of the hitstop

I still just use hatchet if i need to cleave lol