Archer Class Discussion and what you want changed. (Actual Archers only to keep talk relevant)

[boreal owl]

I would actually agree, it should’ve been more like Chiv MW’s tutorial

[slender kiln]

Simply explain countering arrows and only being able to block arrows with shields

And done

[plucky lake]

Or learn... get this: cover and formations.

[boreal owl]

I’d say this game encourages you to scavenge more than anything, due to the fact you can throw everything and find everything lying around as props

[full coral]

oh cover?? you mean that thing that the devs have to put in the game FOR you becauase you can only have 2 engineers on your team??

[plucky lake]

Yeah.

[boreal owl]

I pick up a tower shield if the archers are bothering me

[full coral]

where do you pick it up from?

[boreal owl]

The walls

[plucky lake]

The dead knight who had his head cleaved off from the vanguards battleaxe

[boreal owl]

You’d be surprised at how many props are actually useable

[plucky lake]

That too

[full coral]

so... dev placed, and i know there are quite a few... but not all maps have them readily avaliable

[full coral]

a head knight with a healthy shield, thats a rare find.

[boreal owl]

That’s when you look for the ones on the ground

See em a plenty

I definitely grab bucklers if I see them

[full coral]

but are they healthy enough to use?

and keep in mind, this is still just in the line of "IM not getting shot".. the archer is still alive.. and your teammates also can still get shot

also. youre limited to a 1h weapon now

[plucky lake]

Ok?

[boreal owl]

Yup it’s a trade off

[slender kiln]

They are supposed to pressure you from a distance they're archers wtf

[boreal owl]

You give up range for more protection

[full coral]

cool... now how do you pressure the archer?

[boreal owl]

Though I’m an advocate for throwing random objects I find like wheels

[slender kiln]

Flank, push with shield, throw shit, or simply reposition

[plucky lake]

Anvils

Also fish

[slender kiln]

Archer is supposed to have the advantage at range, that's the point of the class...

[plucky lake]

On bad days I'll throw my crossbow to kill people

[boreal owl]

This game just isn’t as refined in combat as Mordhau. You pick up flaming chickens to use as weapons. So that’s what I do

[full coral]

flank, requires a flank route. and ideally not much opposition on said flank

pushing with a shield requires you to by-pass the frontline, exposing your back to multiple melee players

throwing shit.. you MIGHT be able to throw 20m with picked up objects

and reposition to what? off the objective?

[boreal owl]

Dare I say I’m the best fire chicken user on PC

[slender kiln]

You legit want an even footing with archer as a melee player from a distance, it's just weird

The range is their only advantage, you deal with it until you can nullify it

[full coral]

no. i legit want healthy counterplay to that archer...

[boreal owl]

Pick up a bow

[full coral]

nah. unblockable damage isnt an advantage...

[plucky lake]

Give me a burgundian archer setting where I get a warbow/heavy crossbow and a longsword

[slender kiln]

Never ever had this much trouble with archers

[full coral]

so the counter to an archer.. is an archer

sounds fair and balanced. thanos would be proud.

[full coral]

do you value skill. or are you playing for the laughs?

[boreal owl]

Hey man you’re the one wanting a solution

[slender kiln]

?
I play for fun, I'm also pretty decent and like to win and do well

If I didn't play for fun I wouldn't be maining katars

[boreal owl]

I would say at this junction it takes skill to have fun

[boreal owl]

Ambusher main??

[dreamy grotto]

🍿

[full coral]

if you like to win and do well. surely someone killing you and there being nothing you can do about it... would irritate you.. right?

[boreal owl]

Yup

[slender kiln]

Yes, archers mildly irritate me when they kill me

They don't inspire me to go on a year long malding crusade to gut them

[full coral]

and you agree that theres room for the health of them to be improved. right? as in, making them feel better to play against

[slender kiln]

No, I think you need to stop being a crybaby

[plucky lake]

I need to see what my other class mains are.

[full coral]

oh so you will sit there ,get irritated at the game becuase you died to something you couldnt do anyting about.. and do nothing about it

"did i ever tell you the definition of insanity....?"

[slender kiln]

You can always do something better actually, and I don't take such a casual game that seriously like you apparently do

[full coral]

youre right, you dont.. chiv2 is a skill expressive game where the better play wins in melee. archers devalue this skill by bypassing core mechanics of gameplay.

[boreal owl]

Archers actually take a lot of skill

[plucky lake]

Chiv2 is a casual game with a high skill ceiling

[dreamy grotto]

wow they devalue it by playing range wow, im sorry i didnt know an archer was a melee specialized class

[full coral]

do they though? because i can play archer drunk off my ass and still do well

[dreamy grotto]

they should give archer flail

[slender kiln]

And I can do the same in melee, grats

[full coral]

you missed the point entirely.. the unblockable damage is what bypasses core mechanics

[boreal owl]

Listen my brother, there are two things for certain in this life: Dane axe mains and archers

[dreamy grotto]

the unblockable damage is justified for it being a small projectile, blocking their arrows will ruin their whole form of gameplay if it was just blocking it

[boreal owl]

Mordhau

[dreamy grotto]

morbhau*

[full coral]

as can i in a typical lobby... but the point being. it doesnt matter if my opponent is a skilled player. capable of 1vX and winning every single time... if they dont have a shield...

welp, thats a simple kill for an archer"

[slender kiln]

Weird how archers "bypass core mechanics" of every medieval slasher since war of the roses and age of chivalry

Almost like ranged damage is a core mechanic

[full coral]

throwing knifes are small projectiles.. theyre blockable.

[plucky lake]

Brother I need my hussite

And my chalice emblems

[slender kiln]

Throwing knife users do not have 90 hp and asthma

[boreal owl]

I remember my first archer

[slender kiln]

And they are wielded simultaneously with a melee weapon

[full coral]

they also dont have 50m+ range like a warbow does..

[slender kiln]

Whoa, are you telling me range is the advantage of archers?

[full coral]

nor do they do the level of damage the warbow does..

[boreal owl]

You aren’t trying hard enough, I’ve gotten hail Maries before

[dreamy grotto]

we aren't as weak to an archer, a throwing knife has no long draw time, a throwing knife isnt as accurrate in longer ranges, a throwing knife is just a handy side weapon for melee players.

[full coral]

whoa.. youre telling me that yioure still refusing to look at the actuall issue and constantly bring up that theyre ranged??... you really are insane,.

[boreal owl]

What is the actual issue

[plucky lake]

Usually the warbow at +50 m is looking to pick off soft targets.

[dreamy grotto]

smh i threw my maul across falmire and killed thorne before

[slender kiln]

The issue is they make him angy when he dies to them

His tendies end up all over the floor

[dreamy grotto]

doesnt even need to be a throwing item or range item, just throw a weapon and gg

[boreal owl]

You deserve to be a skirmisher

[full coral]

youre weak to archers as an ambusher.. no shield..

throwing knives dont have a draw time. but they do have a throwing time

[slender kiln]

Throwing knives shit on archers lol

You're only weak to them if you're not positioning as an ambusher should

[boreal owl]

I have killed many archers with knives

As an ambusher you aren’t supposed to be in the middle of the fray you are the dipshit that plays like an asshole

[full coral]

youre right, they do make me "angy".. because someone didnt have to put in much effort, in order to kill me.. when i could do nothing about it

its almost like the gameplay interaction of archer... is as toxic as most of the archer playerbase..

[boreal owl]

Hence why I love it

[dreamy grotto]

im quick, i dodge, i avoid, i dont go straight lines, i dont stand still like you, i have it worse than you as you have a shield and specialize throwing 24/7 and i dont cry on wanting to gut a class either

[full coral]

then you go on the flank and make yourself easier to isolate

[dreamy grotto]

you've seen my clips of literally killing archers with multiple people around without a problem even if its risky

[plucky lake]

It really isn't hard

I make it easy by running at people and forgetting I only have 90 hp

[full coral]

and i can get clips of me coming up behind a knight and doing the same thing... is being flanked an archer exclusive?

[boreal owl]

Never flank without a battle buddy

If you do that then you will die

[slender kiln]

90 hp flanked archer is a guaranteed kill with bow out, knight actually fights back so ya it's different

[full coral]

wait.. you mean to tell me that not only do >I< have to get through the flank.. we have to get multiple people through the flank, in order to deal with an archer?

[dreamy grotto]

heres the problem i wasnt at all flanking, i was straight up moving to them, dodged a bit, killed melee players, and finished a 2nd archer

they all fought me

[boreal owl]

Flank within reason of course my brother

[full coral]

its not a free kill. side dodge and draw secondary..

[dreamy grotto]

if you wanna flank do it its not being scared its smart, but i didnt

[slender kiln]

Lol unless you have knife you aren't drawing secondary in time

[plucky lake]

I am not a smart ambusher brother

I just like the weapon kit

[full coral]

i use shortsword and i can draw my secondary in time unless its something like a warclub.

[dreamy grotto]

have you ever heard of moving with the enemy so their dodge is pointless when provoked and you have initiative

[boreal owl]

It’s a matter of isolating opponents and getting backstabs

[dreamy grotto]

they have far less stam and their weapon isnt as great vs a melee class user

[plucky lake]

Yeah I get that, I just like straight up engagements.

[slender kiln]

You don't play archer

[dreamy grotto]

most archers arent even great in combat either

[full coral]

and you dont play chiv2.

[boreal owl]

Ambusher is pretty bad at that lol

[slender kiln]

I don't? News to me

[boreal owl]

I just love getting a backstab on knights and watching them fly

[full coral]

i dont play archers.. thats news to me too

[dreamy grotto]

damn ayla doesnt play chivalry???

[plucky lake]

Never said I was smart

[slender kiln]

You play skirmisher

[full coral]

wow. almost like we both just pulled something out of our asses in order to try and devalue what the other person is saying.

[slender kiln]

Might be an archer subclass but the gameplay is not the same

[full coral]

i main skirmisher... but i play archer too.

[dreamy grotto]

you obviously dont lol

[boreal owl]

Oh yeah add the sling to skirmisher

[plucky lake]

Give this man his slings

[dreamy grotto]

flail sling when

[plucky lake]

...uh where did Romans recruit their slingers? I forget.

[full coral]

clearly. i can do something that you said wasnt possible... like pressing 2 after dodging to the side.

[full coral]

slings were standard issue

the archers were conqured armies.

[dreamy grotto]

Balearic Isles

[slender kiln]

15k points with the bow pog

[dreamy grotto]

it was standard but almost every one was from there

[full coral]

keeper 2.0.. keep talking about how time played=knowledge of the game

[boreal owl]

To both parties: all of your grievances would be solved if slings were added to the game.

[plucky lake]

Irregular spear throwers were more inline with republic armies until the reforms that issued pilum with the outfitted infantry.

[slender kiln]

I mean you don't have the time nor the knowledge unfortunately

[dreamy grotto]

i like that ur complaining against someone that literally mains katars

[boreal owl]

Yeah Katar mains hate themselves

[full coral]

i mean. you dont have the point to dispute. or the willpower... unfortunately.

[boreal owl]

I just can’t katar, I’ll use my dagger

[full coral]

unless you kill an archer in 1 hit with that flank.. they have the opportunity for counterplay.

[dreamy grotto]

they use katars, seen them kill multiple archers without a problem

its almost as if archers can be killed quickly and easy

[plucky lake]

I've only tried katar a few times

[full coral]

its almost like archers can get kill easily. and safely..

[plucky lake]

It's an interesting novelty.

Simple isn't easy

[full coral]

im not saying that archers arent weak in melee

im saying that they still have the tools to fight in melee..

every single subclass can fight in melee (to different degrees of intent).. but only 1/4 of the subclasses have the ability to block and arrow.. and that requires holding block in order to do reliably.

one of the biggest tips to new players.. is to NOT HOLD BLOCK because it drains your stamina.

[slender kiln]

The only archers that can outlast your held block are crossbowmen

[full coral]

thats in a 1v1 scenario.

[slender kiln]

Regardless shields are extremely strong tools that don't need to be on more classes

[plucky lake]

Longswords should get bucklers

Jk

[full coral]

extremely strong... you mean like breaking after 10 hits?

[slender kiln]

They literally create a deceptively large forcefield that far surpasses their visual model

[plucky lake]

Yeah

[full coral]

when block is held*

[slender kiln]

Are you blocking every single attack when counters exist?

[plucky lake]

The shield hitboxed are wild

[dreamy grotto]

here i made this

[slender kiln]

Lmaoo

[full coral]

are you saying that youre not using your shield...?

[slender kiln]

You should only use it when you need to, yes..

You don't want to block more than you need to, shield or no

[full coral]

so.. youre going to take something that negates, what is it, 70% of stamina damage... and.. not use it to negate the stamina damage...?

[dreamy grotto]

i just dont ever use shield cuz 1h alone is badass and i like punching people with a jab

[full coral]

or. youre able to counter every single hit that comes your way?

[slender kiln]

You use it when it's too risky to counter or you're in a 1vx, it's pretty obvious

Yes I counter most of my attacks

You have to with katars

[boreal owl]

Wait where am I in this drawing

I should be there throwing axes

[plucky lake]

I need to edit this with me behind someone with a harp

[dreamy grotto]

ur the one throwing stuff below

[full coral]

you counter most of the attacks? so when that skill gets translated to archer... that stamina disadvantage becomes almost null.. right?

[plucky lake]

Or throwing my crossbow in frustration

[boreal owl]

Oh sweet

[slender kiln]

Yes, a good archer can work around their bad stamina with good counters... Is rewarding good gameplay a bad thing?

[boreal owl]

Buckler jab does 20 damage

[full coral]

if rewarding good gameplay comes at the cost of balance.. then it is a bad thing.

[boreal owl]

Love me buckler jabs

[full coral]

i too love me some buckler jabs.. its like half my damage as skirm.

[slender kiln]

Lmao, who is complaining about archers in melee?!

[full coral]

nice dodge.

[slender kiln]

All it takes is one heavy drag or good feint to nuke either their stam or hp

[plucky lake]

Excellent thank you best goblin

[boreal owl]

Wait hold on can you add shields laying around

[full coral]

lets go back to this point ...."is rewarding good gameplay a bad things".... if a melee player is doing well.. they should be rewarded with counterplay to arrows.. right?

because as it stands.. their good gameplay. is devalued by an arrow

[full coral]

we get it.. youre funny.. youre still missing the point and insulting because you have nothing to add here.

[slender kiln]

Pretty sure the arrow equally damages everyone, if a "good player" is constantly having trouble with them they might not be as good as they thought with their positioning

[boreal owl]

Archers take skill

[boreal owl]

Thanks

[full coral]

arrows do genearlly damage everyone.... its a shame only 2 subclasses spawn with them...

[dreamy grotto]

buckler at the end for you

[slender kiln]

Is it a shame? Any more and you might have an aneurysm

[full coral]

also. you cant "position" out of line of sight.. if the entire objective is a wide open area.

[slender kiln]

That's a map design issue first and foremost

[full coral]

youre correct. but if the only class that majorily benefits from it... isnt that an archer issue aswell?

[slender kiln]

Some objectives like lionspire bridge are indeed shit

Engis and polemen benefit as well

Banners too

[boreal owl]

Biggest problem in this game is map balancing not archers

I think 75% of my games have been defense…

[full coral]

engies benifit becuase theyre able to setup walls, i'll agree there

but poleman and banners, thats just reach (blockable) and a special

[dreamy grotto]

nah how could you blame tornbanner for building a wall with a wide view of enemies or a bridge behind it a large tall wall where everyone is exposed to archers. with 4 trebuchets on another scaled wall platform , its obviously the arrows grrrr

[plucky lake]

Imagine if they had machiculations

[dreamy grotto]

gotta be honest, tornbanner took map realism a bit too far in some cases like thayic stronghold

[full coral]

let me ask you this.. what other class can take advantage of the height and lack of cover... as well as archer?

[plucky lake]

Thayic could be made far more defensible

[boreal owl]

https://tenor.com/view/win-arrow-acrobat-gif-8017075

Average archer apparently

[slender kiln]

Literally me

[plucky lake]

I did not need a rocket at work

[boreal owl]

To be fair archer takes skill

[slender kiln]

Lmaoo

[dreamy grotto]

shit has a tower for archers in a tower at the gatehouse, huge walls, and hillish terrainto view the catapult area

[plucky lake]

[full coral]

whats skills does a archer need to become annoying to play against?

[boreal owl]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-cat-is-d-fall-cute-pet-gif-16272929

Fuck this discussion now

[plucky lake]

Lemme scroll up

[dreamy grotto]

did you really ask me what other class can take advantage of a archers thing

[boreal owl]

This is now a pathfinder discussion, where archery is bullshit and non functional

[dreamy grotto]

idk i can throw shit, thats all. but thats their role

if you dont want archers to do their role, idk what you want then

[full coral]

did you really expect me to ignore the fact that archers are already catered to, and the unblockable damage makes them very annoying to play against. to a point that a lot of players agree that archers arent healthy for the game?

[slender kiln]

Catered to? They've been hard nerfed since release

[plucky lake]

For feeling.

[dreamy grotto]

next he's gonna say "exactly thats their point" "they have an advantage that no one has" "its bad"

[slender kiln]

There's literally an achievement called "playing the wrong game" for getting archer kills

[plucky lake]

The tabletop 2nd edition has shit archery?

[full coral]

catered to as in. the maps are generally designed for them to thrive, but there are some objectives that make archer a bit less oppressive

[boreal owl]

Oh nah it’s fine there. In 1e it’s nonsense

You have no flexibility, and god forbid you want to use crossbows or any other ranged weapon besides bows

[slender kiln]

The maps are designed for offense to steamroll generally, I wouldn't call that archer favored

[full coral]

name another class exclusive advantage..

[plucky lake]

I guess thats because DnD sucked for years for bow users

[slender kiln]

Ambusher execute passive

[boreal owl]

Anyways archers are not favored, I’d say knights are pretty favored but that’s okay brotha

[full coral]

archer has the same for ranged weapons.

[slender kiln]

No???

[full coral]

do you mean backstab? i forgot about that honestly

[boreal owl]

Ambusher’s passive was a much needed buff

[plucky lake]

Knights are the meta and are pretty much favored. On top of that they're the posterboy and they market the game to people going to knights.

[slender kiln]

They have backstab and they never down enemies

[dreamy grotto]

ambusher insta kills

[full coral]

archers never down with bows.

[slender kiln]

That's unique to weapons, not the class... A knight can pick up a bow and do the same

You cannot pick up a ambusher wep and execute

[full coral]

a knight picking up a bow.. makes him an archer.

[boreal owl]

Good sir do you never scavenge in Chiv 2

No sarcasm I recommend it

[full coral]

archer-someone who uses a bow.. not the longbowman or crossbowman

[dreamy grotto]

It surprises me how this guy hasnt got a clue why no one has ever agreed on him

[full coral]

it surprises me that you dont realize that if 100 people agree on something.. it doesnt make it the right choice.

99% can agree that something is the right answer.. but that doesnt make it correct. it just means that the general mass agreed upon it.

[slender kiln]

Funny how you make the argument that lots of people complain about archer= archer bad though

Seems to be some cognitive dissonance at play

[dreamy grotto]

they do not agree what you state actually, you want to gut the class hard. and ur points are the worse possible, you've been debunked probably now a dozen times

[full coral]

no, i dont want to gut the class. i want the class to be reworked to have healthier counterplay

[dreamy grotto]

its like an archer did you wrong irl

and now your personal hate is being put into here

[boreal owl]

https://tenor.com/view/archer-stirling-point-out-bye-gif-19364807

Scariest archer

[full coral]

ive pitched the idea of buffing shield's passive block in order to make them better against arrows while fighting.. but people didnt agree on that.

[boreal owl]

Anyways I need to go campaign for slings have fun everyone

[slender kiln]

Cause having a forcefield for existing isn't healthy or fun for anyone

[full coral]

having unblockable damage just for existing isnt healthy or fun for anyone.

see. i can do it too.

[dreamy grotto]

if ur having arrows hurt ur shield so badly, i have no clue what the hell ur doing then either. it just sounds like you are indeed walking in a straight line lmao

a shield alone is perfect against arrows

[full coral]

its not about how often i die to archers.. its that it devalues the skill of the game

[slender kiln]

One is a problem of clarity, arrows hitting you and damaging you is clear

[full coral]

okay.. so give an animation of the character model moving the shield in order to show that it was blocked.

[slender kiln]

Missing an arrow that is dead on someone's head because he has a light shield 2 feet away will never be good game design

Change every animation with shields? Go ahead and pitch that to TB

[full coral]

allowing that arrow to bypass the shield because you shot 2 inches under it will never be good design for balance.

[dreamy grotto]

pretty sure bucklers hitbox alone is already over the top

i pick that shit up all the time and i block stuff that should hit me

[full coral]

look. listen.. pay attention

if the go-to defense for how to not get hit with arrows is "bring a shield"... then make the fucking shield do something.

[slender kiln]

They do plenty...

[plucky lake]

I aim for the legs all the time on shield carriers and all 3 block

[full coral]

and yet.. its still not enough.

[slender kiln]

You're speaking for yourself here

[full coral]

hmm.. almost like there is a thread about changing shields..

[plucky lake]

Don't need to hear how annoying the head peaking over gets covered by random crap

[dreamy grotto]

wow we should nerf that tbh, no cap no cap. gotta make it fair right?

[full coral]

im speaking for myself?? youre speaking out of your ass

[slender kiln]

[plucky lake]

Yes

[full coral]

im not asking for nerf after nerf. im asking for a rework to archer to give healthier counterplay.

[slender kiln]

Rework with 0 upsides lmao

Not a nerf btw

[plucky lake]

The counterplay to archers is learn teamwork or distance, not nerf them to make them harder to use so two hander knobs have an easier time playing as lemmings.

[full coral]

did i ever say you couldnt give them upsides of healthier counterplay was introduced?? no.. yeah i didnt think so.. try again keeper

[dreamy grotto]

Archers 2 op, pls make them dumb and stop climbing walls or being far ty

[slender kiln]

I don't want katars buffed, I just want to rework them so they also flinch

[plucky lake]

Give me grapple with shortsword so we can use all these messer and dussack treatises

[full coral]

thats not a rework. thats a buff, do you really not know what the fuck a rework is?

[slender kiln]

Do you not know what a nerf is? Glad you're following

[full coral]

rework- as in. CHANGING THE MECHANICS..

[slender kiln]

Flinching would be a new mechanic for katars, yep

[dreamy grotto]

they should add sprint kick too

[full coral]

okay, then remove the special. since its a double hit. the only one in game.

[slender kiln]

?? No, katars are fine

[full coral]

?? no. archers are cancerous to play against.

[plucky lake]

Add dual swords

[dreamy grotto]

this was actually gonna be a class for vangaurd but it was discontinued

[slender kiln]

Sure, that's why you want them nerfed :)

[full coral]

if there was healthy counterplay to archers.. .cool, give them heavy crossbows that 1 shot knights to the head.. okay. if the counterplay makes it a skill based matchup, im all for it.

[dreamy grotto]

its just dual wielding in general

[full coral]

no.. thats why i want them REWORKED..

you really are keeper.. you keep putting words in my mouth because its not following into what your own personal bias thinks

[slender kiln]

And how will you give them power after drastically lowering theirs with things like blockable arrows?

How will you make it not just nerfs?

[full coral]

did you not just read????

[full coral]

ITS RIGHT HERE

[slender kiln]

Add heavy crossbows is your solution, gotcha

[dreamy grotto]

keeper is in his brain rn nappin

[full coral]

yeah. you didnt read

[slender kiln]

What if I don't use heavy crossbow?

[plucky lake]

Give shortbow

[dreamy grotto]

shortbow plox

[full coral]

bodkin arrows. broadtipped arrows, specialized arrows of multiple types.

[dreamy grotto]

so you like want archers to be more buff against melee players?

[full coral]

if you make the counterplay an actual interation.. you can give them awesome shit to play with that would really put a lot more depth to the class. without risk of it being inherantly dangerous to the game.

[full coral]

if the counterplay give the melee players a chance to defend themselves against it.

[dreamy grotto]

ah yes, a melee player should be able to defend themselves against someone ranging

right next to them or what

[slender kiln]

Your counterplay is having on demand archer invulnerability regardless of class and weapon

[dreamy grotto]

thats like what

a nerf?

[full coral]

archers have invulnerability to every class that isnt archer already... so...

you really dont like the idea of making the game healthier.. do you?

[next furnace]

Oh man I love pathfinder. much better than dungeons and dragons imo :)

[slender kiln]

Archers are invulnerable to melee? Wow, I guess my katars are bugged

[full coral]

counters. yes.. they are,.

[dreamy grotto]

i once killed 5 people with a hammer, 3 were archers

[slender kiln]

I'll let TB know archer invulnerability isn't working as intended, thx

[full coral]

let me tell you what im actually doingg here...

yorue saying that offering counterplay would make people invincable to arrows!!

becuase ya know.. YOU DIDNT FUCKING READ

[plucky lake]

Only reason I don't ask to complicate the pool is because armor in chivalry is an arcade system between classes. If we start adding complexity to bolts and arrow selections we may as well include bonuses for armor selection and helmets in a way similar to mordhau.

[dreamy grotto]

damn this guy is loosing it, grow up dude

[slender kiln]

I love when HE BUSTS OUT THE CAPS

[full coral]

damn. its almost like i have a troll argueing with me, reading half a setence and replying.

[slender kiln]

A troll is ANYONE THAT DISAGREES

[full coral]

do you know why you dont see complaints about javelins from the average TO player... because even if they do 85 damage (which is more than any bow)... theyre blockable.

[plucky lake]

Deez nuts are a troll

[slender kiln]

Uhh, I see plenty of complaints

People don't like range advantage, period

[full coral]

no. thats not disagreeing. that omitting portions of the statement because you cant retort with an counterpoint

im asking for COUNTERPLAY... not invincability.. not making archers useless...

[dreamy grotto]

not a troll, its just that ur argument is being an archer isnt workable and in short, i want them, capitalized letters too "REWORKED" when asking for obvious nerfs and useless solutions of a "buff" if the archer class can be played as an archer class.

[slender kiln]

There is counterplay, you just aren't satisfied with it

[dreamy grotto]

then blaming archers for maps giving the range advantage

[full coral]

you really dont read

HEALTHY

[slender kiln]

You want to be able to avoid literally every instance of damage and anything less is not good enough for you

[full coral]

do i have to capitalize every key word so you'll agknowledge it?

[dreamy grotto]

you also probably never saw ziggys video but you also stated the shield wasnt like working if i recall when the shield wouldnt havve blocked that arrow at all

on his own thread, we even told you that

[full coral]

oh you mean the clip where he held up his shield in order to protect himself from an arrow... was forced to counter...and go shot by the arrow because he was no longer holding block and his shield was moved allowing the archer to shoot him?

which effectively translates to... shield work to block arrows. until you need to fight.

[dreamy grotto]

he had no solution at that point anymore lol, his stam was draining and he went for a hit and a arrow hit him. theres no argument there and everyone agreed it was just bad luck or couldve done something else

ur acting like this was a telltale game story game and it was slowmotion and he could only do that and nothing before or moments like these can happen

[full coral]

in a skill based game, with very limited rng... "bad luck" and "couldve done something else"... are simple ways to avoid adressing the problem

[dreamy grotto]

what am i suppose to do with a catapult ball right on top of me alreadyy

i dont do anything, i die, because i didnt see or hear it before hand and moved outta the way

[full coral]

die.. but heres the thing

that catapult is stationary.

[slender kiln]

Make held block block catapult rocks

[next furnace]

but it can move its aim?

[full coral]

not a troll btw.

[full coral]

but it cannot move itself. meaning, you can get out of its effective range, or close enough it cant hit you at all.

[slender kiln]

I'm not, there's just no valuable discussion to be had with your malding ass so I'd rather poke fun

[full coral]

also. a catapult takes 2 people to operate smoothly. and has a much longer reload time than an arrow drawing

[next furnace]

yeah but that’s not really possible on a map like that one mason attack vs Agatha defense where mason pushes battering rams. you’ll either need to constantly fight and fend people off the catapult yourself and not push the objective or you can push the objective and be at risk

[full coral]

youre not trolling.. yorue jsut trolling.. gotcha. im glad we clarified

[dreamy grotto]

and heres the thing, ziggys situation was the same because he has 2 people on him and a archer that shot him and he went for a hit and arrow passed the 2 masons heads and hit ziggy in a straight diagonal angle, ziggy could've done many other many possibilities and lived or died the same. no one debated that anything messed up there on the archers part.

[plucky lake]

If Ayla's trolling, I'm genuinely a nice guy.

[full coral]

thats just poor map design, since the catapult itself is the key breaking down the gate.

[dreamy grotto]

archers cause stress to a player but at that point at that time, ziggy was gonna die and he said that there wasnt nothing he could've really done either way

[next furnace]

I’m pretty sure the battering ram is

[dreamy grotto]

catapult lowkey shouldnt do damage on the gate tbh

[full coral]

if it was just the 1v2 in melee, ziggy has a decent chance to skill his way out of that situation.. .with counters, dodges, etc

but since there was an archer involved, it became a death sentence

[dreamy grotto]

it wasn't a death sentence just his moves, on a archers lucky shot on a point ziggy drops his block during a ongoing arrow while trying to hit someone. i don't see ur point here

[plucky lake]

So we should add 1v3 protection like for honor?

[dreamy grotto]

pretty much what random wants is some how for the archer to patiently wait and do nothing while ziggy 1v2's and then 1v1s archer

[full coral]

let me put chiv2 into rpg terms, just so people can see the way i see it

frontline=tank
healers=specials
dps=archers

sure the tanks and supports (healers) can do damage, but the dps are going to do it better

the dps often dont take damage, because the tanks are holding the "aggro" or attention on them (since the objective is at stake)

when you try to bypass the tank and healers in order to kill the dps.. the dps get peeled for (teammates helping the archer kill the threat)

getting TO the DPS is only half the fight. being able to kill them quickly is key.. but youre ALWAYS at risk when attempting it.

[dreamy grotto]

heres the clip if yall gotta see again, only issue i see is the aim assist moving the arrow elsewhere of his body, still a direct hit when he tried to swing

[full coral]

notice how his shield stayed WAY outside his body. allowing the archer to kill him

i feel like addressing that, would be enough to get archer a bit better feeling, since a shield would be a proper counterplay.

[plucky lake]

The cockblockers of dreams

[full coral]

also, the class with the most stamina.. cant use a shield. MAA is your best bet for dealing with archers since its has the most stamina of any shield user.

[dreamy grotto]

idk what ur asking for. the shield followed the basic function of its animation, do you want the shield just more higher and facing the opposite way guarding his arm during a swing

because that will just look fucky af and not only screw archers more doing their role closer but also throwing projectiles

[full coral]

ive already stated what i think would be ideal... change it so that the shield stays more frontal when attacking.

[plucky lake]

You would need to fix melee to work with the shield, not just the shield.

https://youtu.be/gWBgmbL78Tc

https://youtu.be/-I5uDlgYDAI

[dreamy grotto]

thats never gonna happen with our current devs lol

[plucky lake]

It's not gonna happen with 98% of devs

[full coral]

if shields didnt break as fast. and the animation kept the shield more frontal..

i feel that alone could be enough to bring healthier counterplay to archers

since it would allow you to fight you way to the archer, while blocking their arrows

[dreamy grotto]

well that solution will never happen because ur asking for a lot with the animation part. its not at all that simple or done in most games alone

that solution will also screw skirmisher/throwing projectiles

[plucky lake]

Ironically simpler combat would be easier to animate, but harder now to fix it.

Although the shield flying away as you swing protects your back from projectiles so there's that

[full coral]

im not following how it would screw them. as shields would be the ideal counter to ranged projectiles, via the passive blocking of them.

[full coral]

cool. less friendly archer damage!

[plucky lake]

[dreamy grotto]

because ur providing just a unnessary counterplay that people already hit if they miss a swing, ur asking for a archer to hit ur head or legs something not easy in a rush amount of time with throwing item or arrows. a player swings, thats already a moment everyone knows to return a hit even on melee

for them to swing and get countered only makes shields a very op piece when it already is, buff its hp on top of that and its literally overkill

[full coral]

so.. shields would block projectiles..

im still not seeing a down side since youre limiting your reach in melee to achive that.

[plucky lake]

If they fix shield hitboxes I am certainly going more for legs and the head.

[full coral]

i mean, you can reduce the stamina reduction to 0 if they actually lasted long enough to warrant that it

[dreamy grotto]

if they did that we wouldnt be having this argument

[dreamy grotto]

again ur overdoing a lot of changes to try to justify the most tiniest wrong time wrong place of ziggy that everyone faces in this game

none of that will happen, none of that is worth over seeing that video, ziggy died normally and just was not in a good spot.

if you want the shield to suddenly work like your way, you mess up arrows and throwing projectiles being a counter attack vs ashield player after they swing just because this is more "realistic"

when a swing is done, it should always be cleare as they to swing or retaliate for a possible hit, not a insta block during teh animation

[full coral]

i dont see it as "over do-ing" if it fixes multiple issues at the same time... shields cause issues in melee aswell due to the stamina negation

so giving shields a purpose with blocking projectiles passively, via animation changes, would be fixing 2 things a the same time. but with them currently as it.. they lack the longevity to be used for more than a few minutes on the frontline, and still be the "just take a shield" against archers.

[dreamy grotto]

not be a plot shield hero

[plucky lake]

Shields already have enough of a purpose

[full coral]

thrown projectiles in game are already blocked by held block, and held parry.. so you rarely see complaint about them, as the counterplay already exist and is relatively healthy

bows bypass block, which is one of the main complaints. and when "take a shield" is often a go-to retort to those complaints

those shields need to be actually worth taking, 400hp on a large shield isnt a ton when a rapier can break it in 9 seconds (just light stab spamming, no counters involved)

countering to lengthen the lifetime of the shield, opens you up to arrows.. hopefully you can see the delima here.

[dreamy grotto]

theres no delima, they are opening up doing a counter, anything can hit you even melee. a shield does its purpose against arrows, to say it doesn't just because a person is fighting melee players and gets shot when they open up is a really bad argument. i see want ur wanting but its not at all a smart idea with shields just practically forcing an archer out of any way killing a melee player using a shield, when you open up ur hittable by anything period not just range.

[full coral]

held parry blocks any incoming attacks within a certain time frame

this includes thrown weapons..

arrows are the ONLY thing that can bypass that. meaning not only is the shield not counter the arrows.. redundant to blocking everything else.

[dreamy grotto]

actually thrown items are dependent on that said parry as are arrows, you can deflect both if timed right and will be rare because you can not parry everything properly like that whenever, ur sides and back are also exposed unless you parry turn. the shield blocks, ur asking for it to block on when someone counter and opens up a swing, thiss is exposed to throwing, and range on the front most of the time, and hits on the side if they land early in time as well before the user swings

redo ziggy with ur way, he hits the two people, archer shoots, he blocks the arrow on his open up attack, ziggy can kill the two because the archer wasn't able to take advantage of the counter place as anyone else could just as someone with a spear, throwing weapon, or any other ranged or someone. when someone opens an a attack their sides are vulnerable or a barely late hit anywhere

[full coral]

me and AHHHH did some testing, he was unable to block a single bolt out of 15 crossbow shots, from ~25-30m range (if i had to guess)

countering and arrow is more luck based than it is skill based imo.. since in order to counter an attack AND and arrow at the same time, they have to contact you at effectively the same time

thrown weapons and melee attacks and blocked by held parry, meaning that you can be in a 1vX and someone can be throwing javelins at you, and they would have to time it very well in order to slip it past the active parry and into the recovery time

[full coral]

yes... thats skill based gameplay

getting outside the parry box is the counterplay to that

[dreamy grotto]

sure if he's being spammed hard on repeated parries and not turning ur side at all to be exposed from the start point

ziggy turned from his start of a swing, the arrow hitbox hit that exposed part

[full coral]

if he was able to consistantly counter. and stay facing the archer... he should win that

the opponents would have the counterplay of being able to surround him, in order to get outside the parry box.

the counterplay would exist for both sides, giving the easier option to the players with the numbers advantage

[full coral]

ziggy did turn in order to drag his slash. but that put the shield at a full 180 degree from the archer, vs the 45 degree he was facing.

[carmine loom]

just remember if you can’t kill someone in melee just play archer!

[dreamy grotto]

when you turn, the start of that drag moves, he moved and got shot in a exposed part, a thrown projectile wouldve killed him as well

you want it changed and the shield more front that it blocks even that

this gives ziggy not only a nice ass parry but a crazy big block radius

[full coral]

a thrown projectile COULD have been blocked. the arrow cannot under standard gameplay (its possible, jsut requires things to line up perfect)

thats the difference between the 2.

[plucky lake]

Ok and

[dreamy grotto]

in that instance no

if the thrown projectile was the same path as that arrow

it should've hit ziggy still

he is turning which increases the radius of him with the melee, but that start is being turned too, when he turned anything on that shoulder area was open unless it hit directly that shield and it was projectile

[full coral]

i believe your missing my intent.

if the arrow was a thrown weapon, and ziggy knew that if he stayed facing it, that he had a chance to block it. he more than likely wouldnt have drag'd that extreme (if any, since his goal was stamina)

since it was an arrow, it was going to bypass it regardless due to the archer not being on the shield side

i order to defend himself against the archer during his counter attempt, he would have had to HEAVILY accel the strike, which comes with its own pros-cons

[cunning umbra]

I don't understand the constant whining about this subject, one person (who's name i shall not mention due to witch hunting rule) made a video and multiple threads about how this specific class is singlehandedly making people quit chivalry 2 and that's the biggest joke i have ever heard so far. Team stackers, dane axe/messer is making people quit, not archers. In fact i have been in so many games where me and a group of my buddy archers have carried a game to victory while being in def against multiple 500+ attackers. Boo hoo if you get shot down by an archer, welcome to the medieval times my friends, don't like it? There's always The Sims 4 that you can play in peace so stop crying and let me actually play the game the way i want to. Before you gonna complain about aim assist let me tell you why it's a great addition and why it should NOT be changed. I'm 43 years old with two children (boy and girl) my gaming years have been behind me and age has caught up to me, my reflexes are not as sharp anymore, the aim assist helps greatly to make it more enjoyable for me. I do not care about your little archer problems, the sooner you guys understand this the sooner we can stop this pointless discussion. There will not be any more nerfs, there wont be any changes, learn to live with it and accept the terms.

[plucky lake]

Thank you zzz

[dreamy grotto]

ok now ur just changing what he would've done, my point here is that he was screwed either way even if that arrow was a thrown item and he did the exact same thing. ur suggestion i said would know force the archer to not be able to do anything because he would be blocking forward arrow attacks more when he is attacking or countering

ur suggestion only makes shields too op, they already have a use

[full coral]

yeah.. theres a thread about team stackers too...

dane axe is on the strong side, but its not debated as heated as archers

and as for your aim assist claim.. so youre not as quick as you used to be.. therefore you should have a handicap helping you.... as someone with nerve damage in my left hand, i understand whats its like to try and compete with the hyper aged ones.... but i understand that my limitations are my own... and having something that would make movement easier would be abused by someone without the nerve damage that i have.

[plucky lake]

Dane Axe just gets flack for being a newb weapon and being strong for it like most of the beginner weapons.

[dreamy grotto]

dane axe pretty meh, i dont like them having 2 tho to throw 1 all the time

[full coral]

he was screwed with either way because there was an archer involved.. if that was a skirmisher or ambusher, i could have played out MUCH differently.... thats the point im trying to bring attention to. (since those are blockable with block/active parry)

shields have a use.. but its not really a "projectile counter".. as much as it is a 2nd stamina bar.

[plucky lake]

I prefer daneaxe/glaive or daneaxe/messer

[full coral]

i tend to use dane/hammer... dane axe is short, but quick. and the hammer is the opposite

[dreamy grotto]

my point here is that, not everything will ahve a counter random, theres points where people overreach and have done a oopsie. ziggy did one of them. he died, simple as that, didn't complain about it

he was at the wrong place, wrong time

[full coral]

not everything needs a 100% counter.. but there needs to be healthier counterplay to archers.

[dreamy grotto]

his stam was dead, he went for a hit, he got shot, died

[full coral]

even being wrong place/wrong time.. is showcases the issue at hand.

[dreamy grotto]

no because then everything just isnt balanced in a right way anymore done that, these suggestioins only unbalance other sides and the reason for the shield front in a attack just has the worse examples there are

if ur gonna make a suggestion you gotta make it doable and in a way archers wont be useless in a situation either

[full coral]

archers wouldnt be useless.. they would just be useless against shields. just like how melee is useless against archer unless you have a way to get to the archer..

[dreamy grotto]

if you wanna throw in a counter, make it logical, not something like an archer has to be forced to melee to kill you or be close to give a melee player a counter

[plucky lake]

Archers wouldn't be useless, they'd just be a throwaway class that isn't a threat.

[full coral]

to kill an archer as melee, you need to force them to melee... or play something that has enough thrown weapons to kill them (hopefully without requring perfect accuracy)

[full coral]

oh sorry, i didnt know that litterally everyone would using a shield..

youre right, no one at all would choose a longer weapon or anything.

[next furnace]

I mean doesn’t every projectile need perfect accuracy? Cept for catapults I guess

[dreamy grotto]

they already are useless to a shield blocking them, them shooting at you when ur shield isnt up is their only way hurting them, which is when someone can be swinging

[full coral]

what i mean by that was having 4 axes, and needing all 4 to hit

[dreamy grotto]

you buffing shield to block that only chance just makes it fully useless to engage a shield player or assist anyone with a bow

[full coral]

so.. shields block arrows.. until you attack.

but if you dont attack.. your shield breaks..

its a catch22.

[dreamy grotto]

dont face directly at an archer 30ft away maybe until ur shield breaks by a million arrows?

[full coral]

its not a 1v1. you have to remember that youre dealing with other members of the team at the same time

[dreamy grotto]

shield blocks arrows, that works.
you want shield blocks arrows in a exposed moment
you know this will make archers useless to a shield in every given moment unless an archer goes melee you or goes the side of you

so what will the archers class counter play be using abow against a shield if they are fighting someone

[full coral]

look.

shield blocks arrows, and gets hurt when used to block melee (not sure if arrows do damage)

you can counter to keep your shield alive longer

countering moves the shield out of the way

you get shot by an arrow while countering to keep your shield alive.... so you could block arrows

[dreamy grotto]

should archers not assist team mates then? is it wrong?

[full coral]

its a >catch 22< its just like locking your keys in your car..

you need what you cant get, in order to get what you need.

you have to counter to keep the shield alive. but you cant counter without risking getting shot.

[plucky lake]

If you stand there and let teammates fight on their own in team fights you deserve a firebomb.

[full coral]

wait.. wait.. there was something earlier that relates 100% to that.

[full coral]

found it..

yeah, while you were flanking.. your teammates were teamfighting without you.

[dreamy grotto]

those are ways to kill archers, ur asking an archer to give up his class role, to go and flank ziggy because his blocks would block all frontal range attacks even if he exposes himself by swinging

again ur solution is just not ideal for balance

no archer is gonna do that, it would force archers to drop support of team mates

[full coral]

why would he have to give up his class role to reposition to an angle that would force ziggy to turn his back to his teammates?

it wouldnt force the archer into melee, it would force the archer to move.

[dreamy grotto]

oh yes reposition right next to him or give up valuable time to shoot as he did there properly in a exposed ziggy moment

[plucky lake]

These aren't lanes, the battle changes. If you can ambush the archers or artillery on the sides then join the team thats better than just sitting behind your teammate with a thumb up your ass.

[full coral]

or ya know... as close as the archer was... just scoot 5 fucking foot to the left

stop acting like adapting the fight requires a surgery and 5 months of recovery..

[full coral]

the whole point... of this entire conversation.. is to give counterplay

ANY counterplay...

i dont give a single fuck about ziggy's "wrong place, wrong time" that people claim because they refuse to admit that the archer was the problem in that situation

[dreamy grotto]

its not the adaptation part, its that its pointless and not gonna be suitable for most situations and not possible at all in tighter spaces, he only has 1 area to go torwards to to get an angle shot thats safe and thats the roof, which btw knowing ziggy would've killed those two by the time he got there probably and he would've just murdered him because the archer is btw low hp and not suitable for melee as much vs him

[full coral]

if you cannot see how bypassing block, and the only actual counterplay someone has against you... is a chunk of wood that has its own pros/cons... that MIGHT protect you.. IF YOURE NOT ATTACKING.

if you cant see that... im having a conversation with a wall..

[dreamy grotto]

ur the one being unable to adapt urself crying about everything and bringing up anythingn possible only to be debunked off of it and cry more

[full coral]

just when i thought you could hold a conversation and give counterpoints

you devolve to "no that wont work"]

[dreamy grotto]

i guess melee players should adapt to not expose themselves bro

[full coral]

how the fuck do you expect to flank in a tighter area??

[dreamy grotto]

idk bro, i think you should adapt on not losing a shield to an archer

[plucky lake]

Random you've been throwing shit at a wall this entire time.

[full coral]

if thats your take away from this.. you really are missing the whole fucking point.

[dreamy grotto]

maybe adapt and do zigzags instead of a line

[full coral]

yeah.. youre right.. the fucking walls ive been talking to..

no eyes. no brains.... walls

[plucky lake]

Nah, if we refute points we're not walls, we just mostly to completely disagree.

[full coral]

yes.. let me just zigzag in the MIDDLE OF A FUCKING FIGHT

[plucky lake]

Yes

[dreamy grotto]

it works

[full coral]

if you refuse the points with no valid counterpoints... you a fucking wall

[plucky lake]

This isn't a pikewall

You have room to maneuver

[dreamy grotto]

gotta ya know, adapt

[full coral]

tell me you dont understand footwork.. without telling me you dont understand ANYTHING ABOUT MOVEMENT.

[dreamy grotto]

ive played warband for 14,000 hours ofc i know footwork. i dont think you do though

[full coral]

dodging an archer.. that close... and fighting someone in melee...

youre going to have a damn hard time doing both.

would you like for me to explain why? i'll put out the chalkboard if i need to...

[dreamy grotto]

you got jabs, you got dodges, you got a weapon, multitask and adapt to doing it and you may just land an archer kill like us

and no one is like targeting you like some streamer either, you can get away just going around people very simple most of the time

[full coral]

yes jab.. and get shot

dodge.. and get shot while its on cooldown

weapon.. cool, its an arrow, that weapon wont do shit..

multitask.. fighting a 1v2 is already multitasking.. adding the archer made it a death sentence.

im not saying i cant kill archers.. im not saying that all my deaths are arrows

YOU BLIND/DUMB WALLS ARE SAYING THAT

even if you dont deal with it often. if you dont understand the issue... you have 0 FUCKING BUISNESS given input on it.

[dreamy grotto]

https://youtu.be/DIKCX_OfQWA?t=45

i got through those people got up the wall and killed 3 people

[full coral]

congrats.. now why is that on you "cool moments".. perhaps.. becuase its doesnt happen often??

hmm novel fuckign concept.. i know.

[dreamy grotto]

nah it happens a lot actually

[full coral]

then it wouldnt be in a montage.

[dreamy grotto]

idk bro cant just judge a montage on whole experience

[full coral]

idk bro, cant say that jsut because it happened in a montage it happens all the time..

[dreamy grotto]

i save clips most never get in them because im lazy and dont like making it 1 hour long

[full coral]

idk bro. cant say just becuase you have fingers and can type that you actually understand what youre trying to say.

[dreamy grotto]

these are all clips that were good and never used yet from last upload, its not rare

[full coral]

we're looking at this whole situation from 2 comepletely different viewpoints. i can see yours.. but you cant see mine.

[dreamy grotto]

i do, you don't have a good view point solution though and i say why, you say no still, you eventually end up stating something else against archers, you stack it up more and more. you tell archers to adapt on that stupid change, im telling you to adapt on ur way handling archers

[full coral]

i say that keeping your shield in front of you while you attack would actually make shields a valid counter to arrows..

i understand that it would be more difficult for the archer to hit them

but you refuse to understand that the fucking archer has legs and can move.

[dreamy grotto]

theres obvious archer problems that are a very specific minority of warbow users in my opinion but im not gonna butcher a class for everyone just for them

thats why i rather think of solutions that are small to effect these people rather than a whole playerbase

[full coral]

how the fuck would that shield change effect the whole playerbase???

it would effect projectiles.. and thats it.

[dreamy grotto]

that wasnt on this that was just my opinion on archer problems

[full coral]

fixing warbow.. would fix archery.

the issue is the extremely limited counterplay

[dreamy grotto]

ur shield wouldnt effect playerbase at all, it would just effect any counter to an archer vs shield players in their only exposed moment that is well deserved on being shot if landed in that moment

that they would have to spend time to move

and that move can be either a long walk or short, its dependent on the maps enviroment

[full coral]

youre right.. the poor baby tiny archer would have to hold the A key for like.. 4 seconds to get an angle that isnt directly in front of the shield...

oh boo-hoo.. the class is ruined..

[dreamy grotto]

in this instance, he'l have to walk in the roof to hit ziggy, something ziggy has time to think on and kill his team mates and then him

all because he couldnt kill ziggy in the obvious deserved moment in terms of actual balance

[full coral]

you bring up map and enviorment... yet.. thats already a contributor to archers success.. and people claim its a map issue.. not an archer issue.

pick one.. is it the map.. or the archer.

because you cant have both.

[dreamy grotto]

ziggy redirects the 2 to a new angle against the wall, now the archer has to move back to his spot

he moved for no reason

do you see the problem?

[full coral]

bro.. bro.. youre not going to believe this

its called.. COUNTERPLAY!!!

omg... novel concept..

alert the news medias!!

[dreamy grotto]

oh you can do the counter play as well with just holding ashield and moving ur camera btw

but ziggy opens up and he cant be shot? thats ur way of being acounter play?

[full coral]

the acher had to put in effort in order to kill someone

DEAR GOD ITS A CATASTROFE!!!

archers is by far... one of the simplest classes to play.

[dreamy grotto]

here lemme just move my screen a lil, oh the archer moved for no reason, he is effectively useless for his team mates as his class

[full coral]

adding some more dependancy on positioning.... wouldnt hurt.

[full coral]

you really are a wall

you are aware that you can do that now... right??... the issue is, you have to turn 70-90 degrees to the right... in which youre not able to fight effectively

[dreamy grotto]

im aware you can do that with shield yes, ur solution is to make it op on the time he opens up and should be shootable.

maybe adapt and use ur shield normally for arrows then if u already can do that

[full coral]

no.. the solution is to make it be INFRONT of you.. instead of 70-90 on your left side..

[dreamy grotto]

ah yes, and then the player can keep forcing the archer to move then 🙂

making their role useless in ever hitting you

[full coral]

if the player is facing the archer.. then his melee teammates just get behind him

[dreamy grotto]

because u wont ever open up anymore

ur only chance will now be only to shoot an angle of a player that never spotted you, only to realize after 1 shot in a longer distance scenario

OH WAIT HE CAN DO THAT ALREADY WITH TEH SHIELD BY DEFAULT

[full coral]

or.. or.. hear me out...

just take an off angle that the rest of your teammates isnt actively fighting on..

[dreamy grotto]

HOLDING IT NORMALLY WITHOUT BEING EXPOSED

[full coral]

youre making it sound like the shield staying in front of you while you attack.. is going to make archer ABSOLUTELY USELESS...

when in reality... just move to one side or the other.. force them to face you.. or face the melee theyre fighting..

you jsut refuse to accept that healthy counterplay.. would make shields worth using against archers..

[dreamy grotto]

im making it sound like melee players shouldnt have a shield immunity when opening up in a attack like the rest of the players, an archer aims at you, cant anymore gotta move sure, you counter the melee person to point their way, of wow... i moved for no reason, players stay ithe same position, archer useless unless he melees or moves position, they will probably not move anymore because they know its pointless now

they probably wont risk melee because its risky with just low hp

[full coral]

im not even going to read that

youre wasting my time at this point becuase you refuse to look at any viewpoint that isnt your own

if the archer is attacking in-line with their melee. they shouldnt get value just for timing their shot for right after their teammate attacks.. there is a rythm to combat... and its easy to read and know when to shoot

shields staying in front of you while you attack.. would actually let you COUNTER to keep your shield alive.. and not get shot..

you know. THE WHOLE FUCKING REASON TO TAKE THE SHIELD!!!

dont type..

[next furnace]

“don’t type” lmbo.
“just stop talking. begone. never speak again.”

[dreamy grotto]

imma go to bed and give you 1 simple thing to read, use shield as intended and adapt, stop crying over everything, dont dictate if i can type or not and grow up, you've been insulting and capitalizing things to look mad. you've been immature and unable to ever take a point and listen to multiple people.

[next furnace]

(I’m not making fun of you random, just found the message funny)

[full coral]

youre too dense to understand that shields arent a viable counter

ziggy's clip proved that..

you tell me to grow up.. yet you cant even open your god damn eyes enough to see what someone else is saying

do i need to draw pictures for you to graps the simplest fucknig concept ???

[dreamy grotto]

ziggys clip didnt prove that actually, and he didn't complain he just said he couldnt do anything anymore at that point himself

know when things end, not everyone is immortal

[next furnace]

I mean even introducing a shield into the mix does still make it significantly harder to land a shot, whether or not there are openings

[full coral]

IT FUCKING PROVED THAT YOUR SHIELD MOVES AWAY FROM YOUR BODY...

TO A POINT THAT IT NO LONGER BLOCKS ARROWS

[dreamy grotto]

been like that for years

no ones complained

[full coral]

it does.. but all you have to do as an archer.. is position more on the weapon side and wait for them to attack

[full coral]

people have been complaining about archers.. since beta.. lie again..

[dreamy grotto]

lmao using the whole "archer" topic for ur op shield buff justification

no ones suggested what uve said, no ones complained as much as you to suggest that

[full coral]

goblind. stop typing

[dreamy grotto]

imagine telling someone to stop typing

im not telling you to stop typing

[next furnace]

but then it still requires positioning? and you still need to wait for an opening

[full coral]

imagine telling someone "just position better around the archer"

"NO WE CANT MAKE THAT CHANGE.. THE ARCHER WOULD HAVE TO REPOSITION!!"

youre babying the fucking easiest class in game... stop.. just fucking stop..

[next furnace]

whether or not the shield is held in front you’ll still need to just maneuver around it. having it not move away just makes it more consistently vulnerable in one spot and consistently protected in another

[dreamy grotto]

[full coral]

currently. go on the weapon side, 45 degrees is plenty, and wait fo them to attack.. youre more than likely going to get past the shield at that point.

[dreamy grotto]

yeah and moving that to the front will just make the play dictate the archer where to go wasting their time in combat

ive been calling his idea too op but he never saw it and kept telling me to view it his point

[next furnace]

isn’t it the same for melee classes? a spear can just like, sit at a somewhat decent distance away and stab as soon as the melee person attacks

[dreamy grotto]

all i see is me holding my shield and moving an archer killing people, and him afterwards

vs the archers deserved hit if i expose myself

[full coral]

if youre able to get outside parry box, sure

but active parry will block that stab.

[dreamy grotto]

i can always just leave and block

to avoid archer

[full coral]

omg.. almost like a skilled player would be rewarded for that skill

but wait.. we cant have that.. becuase what would the newbs play if they couldnt get free value on archer?

[dreamy grotto]

after all thats the point of a shield blocking

[next furnace]

(is active parry a riposte or just a blocked attack?)

[full coral]

blocking arrow*..

anything can block everything else.

[full coral]

active parry is held riposte/counter

[dreamy grotto]

oh sure sure, a arrow wont kill ur shield tho, and you shouldnt be made to be an absolute tank and dictate where an archer goes over and over by moving ur frontal shield while fighting people at the same time

[full coral]

does your dane axe break after it gets hit 10 times??

yeah didnt think so.

[dreamy grotto]

you just want the archer to move and shoot you on the side and call it adaptation when the guy is being dictated where to move by the direction you combat at

because ur no longer open on an attack animation

just ur sides

[full coral]

youre 1000% correct, thank god youre finally understanding

its almost like melee players also have to move based off of where their opponents are looking

[dreamy grotto]

ive understood since the start bud, and thats exactly why its pointless and op

[full coral]

calling it pointless and op shows your bias being extremely pro-archer

3 subclass in game would be able to force an archer to reposition if they was to attack that player specifically... and you say its

"pointless... and op"... which i dont get how it can be both pointless.. and overpowered... at the same time..

its almost like you dont like the idea because it would add depth and skill.. not to mention counterplay...

[dreamy grotto]

i stated earlier i disliked some warbow problems, im not pro archer but i am defending archers ability to actually fight a shield player as deserved, if ur left open it is well deserved you can be shot, or hit.

[full coral]

but you wont defend a shield players abiltiy to attack and block arrows at the same ..."not pro-archer"... sure

[dreamy grotto]

oh yes me not agreeing with you makes me "pro archer"

you wanting me to never type either makes me bias

[full coral]

no.. you saying "we cant have counterplay"... is what makes you pro-archer.

you want it to be even.. right?

[dreamy grotto]

you wanting me to see ur point only and agree isnt bias ah yes

it is even? dont open urself up to an attack? you wont get shot?

adapt?

[full coral]

.. so dont attack at all... which mean.. your shield breaks

GOD WE'RE GOING IN A FUCKING CIRCLE BECUASE YOURE A LITTERALLY BRICK.. youre not just a wall.. youre a specific brick at this point.

[dreamy grotto]

move and change player position in front of you then, do a dodge then, ctrl dodge, again ur using that ziggy video like theres proof of something but there isnt at all

[full coral]

you refuse to admit the catch 22 of shields

hold block to block arrow=shield takes damage

counter to avoid the shield taking damage=open yourself to arrows

do you need it in caps lock in order to be able to see?

[dreamy grotto]

from all my use of a shield i can admit me holding rmb blocks arrows 🙂 me exposing myself is a deserved hit for an archer for my mistake or unawareness of an arrow going at me

ive adapted to avoid that more and more

[full coral]

you legit are a brick if you just said

"me attacking is deserving getting hit by an arrow"

[dreamy grotto]

yes me attacking and exposing myself to the animation is a deserved hit by an archer or anyone able to hit me in time

[full coral]

then youre not active parrying. if anyone can hit you while youre attacking.... youre not using active parry

we're done with this conversation becuase you are showing ignorance to the core mechanics of the game

[dreamy grotto]

mhm mhm goodbye 👋 hope you are more mature and less of a insultive-bias person

i hope you "adapt" also against archers

[next furnace]

isn’t that only up on riposte? And not counters, gambles, or starting attacks?

[full coral]

counters behave differently. as instead of being a flat timer, its an additional time based off things attacking you.. riposte laster longer, but counter has the potential to be held longer, as long as enough attacks connect with it

also, riposte would take shield damage AND open you up for an attack

[dreamy grotto]

By anyone hitting me i didn't mean front, i meant side or behind or an early hit before i trigger it. i told you that earlier. archer has every damage/kill reward though on just a front/back/unshielded side hit for me not noticing them either.

[dull cliff]

It's wild how even a guy who mains a class with a shield can't convince Random how wrong he is and is labeled "Pro-Archer".

Truly amazing

[unkempt tangle]

Unfortunately, spawn wave. You are now fighting 10 people.

[boreal owl]

Woke up, got my uniform on, poured a cup of coffee. Let's see how this discussion turned out.

Ah yes, it went nowhere

Look my friends, the bottom line is this: skill issue

[dull cliff]

I am 100% certain you could write a 5000 word response in extensive detail and Random would just make up some new wild reason why Archer took his fun away.

"BUT WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ME NOT BEING ABLE TO TOUCH HIM FROM 32M AWAY"

[boreal owl]

Archers may have their issues but there's not much else you cant do short of removing them from the game to resolve most peoples' complaints

This is how they are in every slashing game period

Very annoying

They are gremlins

[unkempt tangle]

I think you could rework them to keep ranged pressure but I'm still working on it

[dull cliff]

Yup, that is why they get killed by so many 1 shots. To reward getting to them.

[boreal owl]

The average archer panics when you huck a throwing axe from 30 yards away and hit them

It is quite funny

[unkempt tangle]

We are fortunate that most archers are single IQ amoebas

[dull cliff]

I was honestly amazed he thought he should be able to attack with a shield and it have no downside. That he should only take damage from being flanked by an Archer.

That was a new one

[unkempt tangle]

That was weird, and would also cause issues in melee readability.

[boreal owl]

Anyways so yeah um give skirmisher the sling, throwing mallets, and some more throwing axes. Then every issue will be solved

[dull cliff]

Have you asked for Fire Daggers?

[plucky lake]

For realisms sake I actually agree, but for balance reasons no. Also wouldn't expect the devs to overhaul a number of attack animations to keep a shield in front of them.

[plucky lake]

Most of the game is regardless of class.

[plucky lake]

They should, throwing knives and throwing axes take large chunks of an archers health.

[dull cliff]

I don't think the word realism should ever be brought into a Chiv debate.

That argument falls apart instantly when you bring up 100's of things in game.

[plucky lake]

I know

Hence why I brought up balance

[dull cliff]

Now a game like Chiv that was more Sim than Arcade would be pretty cool, extremely slow lol but fun for a bit.

[boreal owl]

Realism? In my funny throwing axe buckler jab simulator??

[plucky lake]

My bolt to a knights head simulator

Let my meme be dreams slingman

[boreal owl]

A survey indicates that at least 78% of Footmen hate archers. Together we can stop this.

[vernal trellis]

This is why i stopped responding to these archer threads. Reading through all the posts and seeing its just getting ridiculous cause people cant accept reality that archer aint the issue, its them making bad plays lol.

[plucky lake]

It's space marine with the assault marines/raptors all over again

[unkempt tangle]

Hitting through blocks is the issue

[dull cliff]

Nobody complains when bracing absorbs arrows : (, it's been a bug since bracing for reduced damage was introduced.

[vernal trellis]

Blocking a swing that came from behind is an issue as well. Like the core main issues arent being focused when they should. But instead people rather complain about dying to an archer once in a blue moon instead of banding together to make the game playable. Like i stopped playing as much as i have cause of major lag issues, like you stated hitting through blocks, or blocking an attack from behind etc. I would love for us to actually focus on making the game playable and then come back to these disputes when the core issues are resolved.

[boreal owl]

This game has bigger problems tbh

[vernal trellis]

It does and its ridiculous after almost 3 years now they still havent fixed issues that have been an issue from the start of the game.

[unkempt tangle]

Bugs are different to intended design being frustrating. And we can discuss more than one thing at a time

[boreal owl]

Also off topic, but spoon mains unite

[plucky lake]

I prefer the soup spoon

[boreal owl]

Back to topic: the real problem with this game is that they removed the funny sickle weapon.

[unkempt tangle]

And by hitting through blocks I was referring to arrows, since this is the archer discussion thread

[vernal trellis]

That goes back to core game issues.

Lag will cause most of that issue

[plucky lake]

I thought he was just complaining about not being able to hold block arrows like you can throws.

[vernal trellis]

You can block arrows with a shield

[plucky lake]

Yeah, he's on about everyone else.

[dull cliff]

Is he saying he is blocking with a shield and the Arrow is going through it?

[plucky lake]

Shields can block your body despite not covering most of it.

[vernal trellis]

Thats what i assumed

[dull cliff]

I have literally never had that happen, it's always the shield blocks way more than it should never less.

[vernal trellis]

If he complaining about not being able to just parry with no shield then good luck finding a game that did implement that cause they know it will cause issues for archer players

[plucky lake]

If that is the case of shields not blocking because of lag then that is a big ol issue

[dull cliff]

I haven't seen one complaint of an arrow going through a shield due to lag until 3 minutes ago lol

[vernal trellis]

It does happen

I have it happen to me before

[dull cliff]

High ping?

[vernal trellis]

No i will be on FFA with 0 ping lol

But the game will have those big lag issues regardless

[dull cliff]

0 ping only happens on LAN. Always thought it was weird they displayed it in game as 0

[vernal trellis]

I think its weird there is such a big difference when you have 43 ping that feels like over 200 ping

Like that shows had bad their net coding is

[dull cliff]

I do wonder how different this game would perform in a 32v32 on LAN

[boreal owl]

I play with 500+ ping. I become an absolute laggy blur

That’s how I deal with archers

[dull cliff]

Can't hit what you can't track lol

[vernal trellis]

I could go on any other game and go onto a server that i have 90 ping on and be fine. But this game when you go into a lobby and have 40 ping its unplayable

[plucky lake]

It's lag or net coding. Bodies will randomly dissapear if they get a certain height above me for some reason.

[dull cliff]

Ya 40+ ping feels wild

[vernal trellis]

People being invisible is still a big issue. I wont see them till i die and then they show up

[boreal owl]

Did you forget to bring your visible spray?

[plucky lake]

So armored core for answer lag

[vernal trellis]

Like i can run any game on the highest graphic settings and be fine. This game i used too before Hippodrome map showed up, thats when it just started going to shit

Their updates are making the game worse instead of better

[boreal owl]

My guide to fighting archers:

1. Throwing Axe
2. Throwing Knife
3. Pick up shield
4. Dox them
5. High ping

[dull cliff]

The snow on the winter castle map making my 4090 drop frames was wild

[vernal trellis]

Nah man i forgot to bring my infared scopes to battle

[vernal trellis]

you forgot moving around

[dull cliff]

Hey those are better than normal ones presented in discord

1. Make them melee only
2. Make them melee only
3. Make them melee only
4. Make them melee only
5. Make them melee only

[unkempt tangle]

Yes, this. It shouldn't just be added to the game though, archer would need a full rework.

[vernal trellis]

Actually Javelins and dane aces are best for destroying archers too lol

[plucky lake]

I got trolled half a match by a guy who was hitting me with magic missile javelins. The netcode was bad where they would fly 3 ft above my head but they'd hit me. Was really fucking annoying.

[vernal trellis]

This game needs a rework lol. But again we need to pressure the main issues and force them to do it or it wont happen. We basically just go and say do this or we stop playing. Stop buying their battle passes, stop playing, force them to do it under our conditions or lose their player base. SWTOR was doing the samething and people banded together. They finally listened to the demands and they brought the game back from shit.

Player base for chiv 2 is not that high and can easily do this

[unkempt tangle]

Ok, but, this is the archer discussion thread

[vernal trellis]

Look you cant keep saying that when all you did most of this thread was shit talk about keeper. If you dont remember ill post the messages for you.

[boreal owl]

Incorrect: throwing axes

[vernal trellis]

At least im talking about the issues of the game

[plucky lake]

You can use throwing axes on everyone

[vernal trellis]

See throwing axes dont do the damage they should do tho sadly

Thats why i said javlins

You can easily 2 shot them

[unkempt tangle]

I was trying to curb some of the archer specific suggestions brought up, how they'd negatively affect the rest of the game

While also shit talking keeper

[boreal owl]

It’s not about the damage. It’s about decapitating at range

[vernal trellis]

By shit talking keeper? Being the issue that you guys keep complaining about in other threads about derailing threads?

[vernal trellis]

Honestly then i would go with throwing knives for decapitating

[unkempt tangle]

If you'd read all my messages you'd know but, w.e.

[vernal trellis]

I have read lol thats why i called you out on it. Its okay for you to do it but if other people do it its not okay.

[boreal owl]

Did you try applying your anti archer cream

[plucky lake]

Did you try turning it off and barking at it

[boreal owl]

I always carry my Anti-Archer Cream

Just lather a thin film onto your skin and bam, watch those archers run away in fear

(It’s actually soap)

[vernal trellis]

Wait are you talking about throwing axes with skirmisher or throwing axes with knights?

[boreal owl]

Who the hell uses throwing axes as knight

Skirmisher Axes al the way

[plucky lake]

Boredom

[vernal trellis]

Me lol

[unkempt tangle]

You can believe that, okay 👍

[boreal owl]

I’m prescribing you: throwing axecher

[plucky lake]

Axecher

[vernal trellis]

You know how easy it is to link your messages? Do you want me too and show everyone that your being hypocritical? Its not hard to search some ones name and go through seeing all their posts.

[unkempt tangle]

my other effort was to make everyone's voices heard, not limiting discussion to those that would hold bias towards their own class

but sure I didnt say that either

[vernal trellis]

The thing is no one is doing that. Your saying their bias cause you want changes cause you died once in a blue moon to an archer

[unkempt tangle]

literally the title of this post

[vernal trellis]

And they disagree

[unkempt tangle]

literally

[boreal owl]

The Banana Republic

[plucky lake]

Banananaaaaa

[dull cliff]

I made this post for people who play Archer to discuss changes, not create another thread where melee players come in spread misinformation and tag mods to shut it down.

If you want to make an "Archer issues as a Melee main thread" by all means go ahead.

But if you can't contribute more than toothless insults to a person you have blocked then you have 0 value here.

[plucky lake]

That's enough out of both of you.

[dull cliff]

I 100% thought that was going to be a gif where it bounced back and hit her

[boreal owl]

Badgerlicious

Hi

[plucky lake]

Hi

[dull cliff]

Try moving closer to him to say hi

[vernal trellis]

Thats what you guys were doing in other threads. He stated this cause people that havent played the class are saying they need changes when they arent playing the class. That is actually true on a lot of fronts that if you never touched a class or a weapon etc, how can you judge whether or not it needs changing? Anyone that was stating " archer isnt really an issue " you guys lit up on them. Like i kid you not when i threw up facts of archers, people talk shit on me cause i was proving them wrong, then a mod stated the same thing i typed but they didnt talk shit to them. You guys will clown on anyone that disagrees with you ( besides mods which i think is funny). They have to agree with you. The funny thing is also everyone assumes im an archer main when im not lol, my main class is Vanguard with Maul as my top weapon, with katars my second.

[boreal owl]

Man at Arms is op. There’s no legitimate way to engage them safely and fairly. They deal tons of unavoidable damage.

[plucky lake]

That throwing shield

[unkempt tangle]

#1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message #1120674199158141018 message

but you obviously read these already

[vernal trellis]

Only things that are unavoidable damage are catapult, ballista and firepot. I feel like im missing something but those are the only listed items that cant be avoided on damage, you get hit you taking that damage

[boreal owl]

Tl;dr

[plucky lake]

You can block ballista with a pavise. I think shields too.

Only 1 though

[unkempt tangle]

I was contributing

[dull cliff]

Him and random try to label Archer Damage as "unblockable" a lot.

[unkempt tangle]

tell me how it isn't then? You can have the opinion that it isn't an issue, but you can't deny that it's unblockable for most classes and weapons in the game

[boreal owl]

Shield

[dull cliff]

See, just constant bad faith from people who don't even play the class.

[unkempt tangle]

we can discuss the opinion part all day, but you can't just say it isn't when most weapons in the game do no not have a reasonable ability to block arrow damage

[boreal owl]

And yes you are limiting yourself by scavenging a shield but that’s the intended trade off, more protection for less potential reach and damage

[vernal trellis]

That had to be an update cause i remember playing in TO and shields did not block ballista for me lol

[unkempt tangle]

I think it's only when it's on your back

[cunning umbra]

July 12th mordhau release for console

This discussion is over now, archers won.

[vernal trellis]

You know whats goofy is i assumed these were troll comments cause i never see you ever say that too ziggy or any of them in the other threads.

Thats new to see tbh

[unkempt tangle]

well sorry for trying to have a discussion in the discussion threads

[vernal trellis]

Yeah i havent played TO in almost 2 months so idk

[dull cliff]

When you make a claim something is "unblockable" and you get corrected you don't then move the goal post to "but not all classes".

[plucky lake]

Must have because I've only been playing since January/February.

[vernal trellis]

Thats why i said i assumed you were trolling cause you never actually did that in other threads when we are talking about the same thing in multiple threads lol.

[unkempt tangle]

I don't know why you can't read "unblockable for most classes"

[vernal trellis]

Like everything thats being discussed in this thread is in the other threads

[dull cliff]

See moved goal post

[unkempt tangle]

my opinions have changed a bit over the past few weeks of discussion. And i've gotten more specific about things since a certain someone loves that shit

[vernal trellis]

Nothing has changed on context its all the same thing being said throughout all 7 different archer threads lol

[plucky lake]

Hard block for most classes, counterable by everyone, and not that good looking because archer fashion is lacking.

[vernal trellis]

Well you have to be tho more specific on things. Thats how changes happen. Like when you change damage on the bow for example, is it the damage bonus or base damage or is it the fall out damage.

is it all 3?

When people say shits unblockable, can i block it with a shield? Yes? Then is not unblockable

[unkempt tangle]

sure, these things matter, and usually get refined through discussion or corrected when one person points it out and isn't shouting "goal posts moved" at every change of opinion

[unkempt tangle]

hence why I say "by most classes"

[boreal owl]

Man At Arms play their own game. All of their damage goes thru blocks.

[boreal owl]

It’s Joever

[plucky lake]

I'm prolly gonna get console mordhau

[unkempt tangle]

and when you have a combat system built around every weapon fighting every other weapon, and one weapon just gets to surpass that, it's frustrating to play against

which is my opinion, you can have your own, we can discuss that, but arrows going through most people's parry is a fact

[dull cliff]

You have more options to negate Archers than melee though so that isn't true

[plucky lake]

I watch a lot of my bolts go through people for no damage. Moreso since the block change.

Or counter

[vernal trellis]

Honestly i feel the reason why Keeper moves posts and i dont blame him. The mods are bias. They definitely are playing Favoritism. I will admit Keeper in the past was an ass hole lol but he actually hasnt been doing anything wrong from these last few threads of archer posts. Shit that hes done that gotten him put in time out corners, others are getting away with and mods will only target Keeper for it. So he moved into this thread to show that. Like when Jebastrus made his archer thread and i was proving him wrong left and right. People were calling me bias so i decided to go onto luna's thread and said i agree with her to show the mods they targeting me then it showed there i got attacked saying im pro archer when i actually agreed with her in that thread that archer needed changes.

[unkempt tangle]

the stuff he does isn't against the rules, but he just doesn't discuss things, he's right and his hours are higher so therefore you don't have an opinion. It's why people don't like him.

and it's behaviour that fuels arguments over discussion

[vernal trellis]

Thats what im saying he isnt doing anything against the rules yet they put him in timeout hell even ban him when others are talking mad shit on him not even discussing, talking real mad shit on him but nothing happens to them.

[dull cliff]

I have backed up my claims with gameplay and actual knowledge of Archer mechanics lol.

[vernal trellis]

Also the thing is he has been showing proof of game play tho. He shown its ez to engage archers, he shown archer trails are dangerous, he has shown in his game play its very hard to play archer and score that high.

[boreal owl]

Archer deserves more cosmetics

[dull cliff]

A guy who had two death threats and countless insults was allowed to keep posting after I tagged mods lol.

They tried to kick me off the server for being argumentative in a debate thread.

That was the most hilariously easy appeal in history.

[unkempt tangle]

braindead archers, sure. I can do that. I should've recorded the good archers I've gone against, but that was before all this shit and the servers being shit and why I mostly stopped playing for now

[dull cliff]

Post your gameplay to prove me wrong then, you make these claims with nothing to back you up.

[unkempt tangle]

skill will trend up so balancing around idiots is a bad idea in general

[dull cliff]

If Archers are so brain dead easy go show you dominating with them, not pull the "it's boring" excuse when called out

[vernal trellis]

Well the issue is your description of braindead archers is pretty much 90% hell even higher are those according to you braindead archers.

[plucky lake]

I gauge my teams by how far from the top I am with a crossbowman.

[unkempt tangle]

there was one in keeper's vid that smartly ran away and keeper did not get to kill them

[dull cliff]

It's the ultimate 2 button meme

Archers are brain dead

Archers are broken

[vernal trellis]

You dont balance around top tier players or bottom tier players. You balance around the average player.

[dull cliff]

That I didn't chase and instead engaged and killed 2 more Archers and took the objective? Killing 5 total in 1 flank. On the same exact map and objective Ziggy died to 1...

[unkempt tangle]

which will be people that generally understand the mechanics, unless you want to adjust every time a sale is on.

[vernal trellis]

That was a smart play for the archer

[unkempt tangle]

and thus, they escaped consequence

[dull cliff]

They lost the point and I killed 2 more.

You don't have to kill the Archer to make him ineffective

I think that is a massive issue you have trouble understanding

[plucky lake]

Making archers waste ammo is enough

Since suppressing enemies doesn't matter if they just run forward.

[vernal trellis]

Yes average player would generally understand the mechanics. But again if there isnt any changes that need to happen then there shouldnt be a discussion about it. Archer is fucking hard, its not ez at all. You can be so skilled at melee but suck as archer cause you aint hitting people consistently. Sure you might have that nice pop off when you hit someone 3 times in a row but thats never happening. The game is always on the move and players are always on the move.

Like i can show you my stats and i play everything. All my classes are the same rank pretty much except for Vanguard which is 100 maybe 200 levels higher cause i love smashing peoples face in with blunt weapons lol.

Maul in particular cause i can 1 shot every class besides vanguard sadly lol

[dull cliff]

Go ask Ziggy about the best game he had with me in the lobby as an Archer. He still scored only 75% of my score and is proud of it , I went Melee (pre-nerf Highlander) and beat him the next game in score and the map.

The game rewards smart plays and awareness in TO.

[unkempt tangle]

I've even said, judging purely by the scoreboard, that archers rn are quite balanced, yet they are still exceedingly frustrating to play against, and put an insane amount of pressure on a player just by existing nearby. Then you add the factor of range and a spawn wave never being too far, and it becomes and even more frustrating class to play against. You either drop the weapon to take a shield, which doesn't happen vs any other weapon, or you just take the damage, ignore it, or take yourself out the game flanking so the archer can respawn in 10 seconds.

which is why they need a rework, not just number adjustments

[dull cliff]

Suggesting a class needs a rework when you don't even have experience playing it at any length is a horrible way to approach balance in any game.

[vernal trellis]

Here is the other issue. Go to other medieval games. Mount and Blade, they go into realism a bit which armor matters but if an archer scores a head shot you dead. Archers actually have great weapons, great stamina, and armor but yet more players play that game then this. Mordhau they impemented the 1 shot archer with bow in the game, its hell for the average player and youtubers have been proving that left and right, but people still bitch about archers cause as you said are a nuisance at times but yet more players play that over this. Take any other medieval game and they gonna have the same experience. Why? Because its a medieval game and in medieval times arrows were never fucking fair lol. Which is why they created a shield to counter archers. You cant think unrealistically when it comes to changes. They are gonna be a nuisance no matter how much you paint it until you decide to just take the painting and throw it out the window, thats when they will never be a nuisance, is when they stop existing.

But im glad you even admit that they are actually as balanced as they can be at the moment

They dont need any more nerfs or any more buffs

[unkempt tangle]

historical context is bad reasoning tbh, since we can cut through plate armour with ease. Games like mount and blade are built for large scale combat, so archers affect the individual less. Same reason you don't complain about getting eviscerated by CAS in arma.

I do believe they can be reworked so they fit in with the combat system, while contributing and being an interesting ranged class to play. That's what I'm pushing for. Others can be unhinged about archers, I will call them on that too. Or if I haven't been doing it enough I will do it more.

I will still shit talk archers in the general chats, you're all cowards!

[plucky lake]

You're not even a honeybadger.

[vernal trellis]

You realize Mount and Blade archers effect the individuals way more then this game does? Like the no cap to archers for that game alone is huge. You are definitely dying to more projectiles in that game then you are in this one.

[unkempt tangle]

though if you're talking about online I have zero experience in that

[plucky lake]

Warband online was... an experience

[vernal trellis]

Thats what i meant lol. I wasnt comparing numbers to single player at all. Im just talking specifically multiplayer since thats what we are talking about

[plucky lake]

I recommend staying in Chivalry

[unkempt tangle]

ah, yeah I can't speak to that. I just heard it was a mess and stayed in my campaign

[vernal trellis]

Even in campaign you can go all archer in your army and lay waste to the oposing force

[unkempt tangle]

you can, the fians are broken

[vernal trellis]

Fians arent even the strongest archer in the game

[unkempt tangle]

fian champs and then the desert dude, idr their name

[vernal trellis]

I havent played in ages but yeah the desert archers are the top tier archers in the game, Fians i think come 3rd

[unkempt tangle]

I think the fian champs were better in melee? So they were a better pick overall

[vernal trellis]

2nd are the Kurgaits if thats how their name is spelled lol. Then its the non empire faction i forget their name, then empire then sturgis

[unkempt tangle]

also, warband v bannerlord idk which we're talking about

[vernal trellis]

Their rate of fire and them having shields gave them the edge when you put them against each other

Im talking newest which was bannerlord

[unkempt tangle]

yeah

either way, archers are broken in that game

[vernal trellis]

But honestly doesnt matter cause both games in multiplayer, cav and archers dominated the battle fields

Footmen were more used when it came to sieges

[vernal trellis]

Well they went realistic so meaning archers were gonna be broken but still hella fun

[dull cliff]

You keep claiming Archers don't fit in the existing combat system and get to bypass it.

Do you just pretend that Archers never fight in Melee in your examples? That they only shoot arrows all game?

From my experience you have to take part in the full game to play an Archer well. You have to know how to 1vX, 1v1, flankers, Map Awareness even more than normal melee (where are Archer blind spots so you keep an eye out for Warbow since they are 1 shot kills) and keep an eye on your ammo to be able to output your main damage. Trying to maintain 50% stamina at all times also.

What class is doing more with the combat mechanics than Archer each game?

The majority of Melee is just worried about 1vX. So aren't they technically avoiding the most game mechanics?

[unkempt tangle]

I am clearly talking about arrows you fucking smoothbrain

see, THAT is some excellent goal post moving

[dull cliff]

No its directly addressing your claim they get to bypass game mechanics. When the absolute fact is they have to interact with more.

Also your insults are toothless, act like an adult.

[unkempt tangle]

@vernal trellis this is why even mods are biased

[dull cliff]

What class has to deal with more ways their damage is 100% mitagted, hell partially mitigated.

Archer or Melee?

As expected, silence.

[unkempt tangle]

im just not going over it all again with you

[dull cliff]

Quote your answers to my question then.

[boreal owl]

FWWUMP Aiiiiiiiiieeee!

So yeah archers won this debate again

[plucky lake]

Had a room where I had to fight 3-4 warbow users as a crossbowmen. Still won but man I really don't like trailing behind to kill a warbow shit.

[boreal owl]

Don’t use crossbow…

That’s a poor man’s weapon

[plucky lake]

If it's good enough for King Richard, it's good enough for me.

[plucky lake]

Jokingly aside though we won and I even had masons following my harp party.

[dreamy grotto]

this is a smaller player base as i mentioned warbow users that sit behind far behind lines, a very small minority. you guys need to find a solution on that rather than his idea of making a shielder superbly too op

or making a nerf that hits all archers

like idk a auto balance or map design fixes

[plucky lake]

As much as they annoy me, warbow users aren't an every match occurance for me, let alone good ones.

[dreamy grotto]

yeah they are pretty rare, if they are great they aren't really killable due to how they have their area setup near a spawn point for a quick escape. there needs to be a solution to just more them a lil more ahead and not hogging that area.

[unkempt tangle]

the lines aren't always that far apart tbh. Generally a typical archer range is not far in front of the spawn cluster

[boreal owl]

Just dodge

[dull cliff]

This isn't true at all lol and you continue to show you don't actually play the class, you just parrot the complaints from others who don't play also. Creating a feedback loop of misinformation.

Normal bow is always close and they are the most populated of the class you will see in game any game.

Crossbow is normally mid because to want to pick off people not be sniping people and to maximize your banner

Warbow is not the typical Archer in any round. They will be the ones sniping and be focused on counter Archer first not melee and timing waves.

They (Warbow) are the smallest threat to melee in a normal/typical game on average.

You are still trying to over generalize one subclass of Archer as representative of the entire class.

[boreal owl]

Love how you blatantly disregard the actual archer class.

[dull cliff]

Skirmisher are kings and don't need to be lumped with lowly string pullers.

[unkempt tangle]

I guess I was talking about warbows because only warbows shoot arrows. okay. Strange lack of knowledge from an archer main

[dull cliff]

I covered why what you claimed didn't work and explained it in detail.

Strange lack of reading comprehension

[unkempt tangle]

archers will vary from spawn up to frontlines but as I said, each team's spawns arent always that far apart, causing most archers to be within with spawn wave group

[dull cliff]

This isn't true at all, it's just more regurgitation of talking points.

The only reason for non Warbow Archers to be in a spawn wave is if they died.

You are referring to good Archers still or did you go back to all Archers so this attempt doesn't fail? It's hard to keep up

[unkempt tangle]

well, this is just in bad faith, talk later keeps

[dull cliff]

Good luck with your next attempt bud! Sorry you keep getting corrected but I'm glad you are learning.

[plucky lake]

What

[unkempt tangle]

I'm just done with you for today, your smoothbrain cannot comprehend English and I cannot be arsed to explain it to you anymore

I dunno, man. I guess there's some magical dimension that isn't between spawn and the frontline that archers hang out in 🤷‍♂️

[dull cliff]

All you have done is run away when corrected, for a person that hates Archers for doing it you are killing it.

[plucky lake]

I'm retiring from this discussion, this is even worse than random this morning.

I don't agree with badger on principle but this is literally throwing shit at a wall until the entire wall is sticky.

[unkempt tangle]

on principle of what?

[dull cliff]

I'm pretty sure we are going to be upset at Archer armor eventually and how it triggers people.

[full coral]

i learned this morning that people tend to not read, yet theyll reply and point out something that you addressed in the same sentence

[boreal owl]

Archers win

[carmine loom]

They always do, in the end

[next furnace]

nah it’s definitely not just when on back. some pickaxe engi charged me with a scavenged heavy shield and it took an entire ballista bolt while he was blocking with it

I still ended up killing the engi though after :3

[full coral]

not sure if it was an update, but shield can block a ballista, it destroys the shield instantly though

[full coral]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Rm5NhTm-k

youll have to translate it to chiv2 gameplay.. but overall it points out a lot of the issues with archer

[dull cliff]

0 value

[full coral]

is it 0 value because you didnt watch it?

or is it 0 value because it doesnt support what youre saying?

it even goes over the "it can be hard to hit your shots on a juking target"..

its a good watch, i suggest it.

[vernal trellis]

I like how in the first minute of the video he explains it aint over powered and explains that " if it was over powered anyone can pick it up in mere minutes and wipe the competition with it " Dont see anyone with bow doing that lol

[dull cliff]

It's 0 value because it's a FPS, vastly different gameplay and not relevant.

It's just a lazy way of pretending you are contributing and acting like it backs up your failed "takes away skill" talking point.

You don't even expand on anything they say just lazily say "watch this me agree"

[boreal owl]

The average new archer is raw xp

[full coral]

just keep watching

overpowered has a variety of definitions based off who is saying it

something can be not overpowered.. and still be problematic due to the gameplay it creates

[vernal trellis]

Thats every class though lol. Every class can be problematic. Your stating to where Archer can be picked up by anyone and easily be amazing when that isnt truth. TF2 is a horrible example of anywhere close to balancing especially since they started adding new weapons into the game, instead of keeping it the old classic TF. But even so no one can even pick up a sniper in TF2 and be problematic lol

[dull cliff]

It doesn't fit any of his definitions of overpowered or you would be "mopping the floor" with it and you refuse to upload a game doing so.

Problem is "design of the map"

Lol this video is not helping you st all

[full coral]

archer can be picked up by anyone. and in very little time, learn that spamming arrows into the frontlines gets damage out

go to the 7min mark of the video. thats where it REALLY becomes applied to chiv2 archer.

[boreal owl]

We are back at it again ladies gentlemen we have Keeper vs Random tonight

Who will win? Who will make the best impression? Let’s find out

[full coral]

keeper is typing?

im having a conversation with AHHH. i already know that keeper is going to find some copout for any points that is made

[boreal owl]

That is simply Keeper’s alt

[full coral]

i know its not, because ahhhh actually went in game with me to test things LOL

[boreal owl]

Source?

[full coral]

also @vernal trellis i meant to test javelin melee damage against a shield. since it says "extra damage to shield"

[vernal trellis]

Dude your using a TF2 video. In no case is this anywhere close to reality to an archer in a medieval game lol. Why is it that i need to look a video for a sniper in an FPS game to understand your issue with an archer that has no relevance to a sniper in an FPS game.

[vernal trellis]

Im an alt? lol

[boreal owl]

Yes. Trust me I know a source

[vernal trellis]

Really what source says im an alt? lol

Its funny cause my account has been created 2 years before keepers odd huh

[boreal owl]

My top men

[full coral]

even if its a fps game, it still applies to any class based game

sniper: strong at range, problematic to balance

weak in closer ranges, but still capable to defending themselves

archer: strong at range, problematic to balance

weak in closer ranges. but still capable of defending themselves.

[boreal owl]

Archers are strong at range?

[vernal trellis]

Dude its not the same. You cant compare an fps game to a medieval game lol.

FPS games all weapons are ranged lol

[boreal owl]

What about the Demoknight

[vernal trellis]

What is demoknight?

[full coral]

even if all weapons are ranged, some do more damage up close, and when you get to sniper distances.. a shotgun is going to do 6 damage... when classes have a minimum of 125 baseline.

[boreal owl]

Demoman but instead of explosive he uses a sword

[vernal trellis]

Put in slugs, you now created a sniper and close range weapon

See why you cant compare

@full coral #1120674199158141018 message I explained this to even Badger go ahead and read this

[dull cliff]

An Archer spamming arrows into the front line is not going to do anything in 32v32 thanks to Horn and Banner being down always.

This is just a bad talking point you keep repeating that has no basis in reality as an issue in game.

[vernal trellis]

Honestly i even forgot to mention about the constant healing that happens too

[boreal owl]

Now throwing axes? They make the difference

[vernal trellis]

Bruh i wish they did lol They need to do more damage

[boreal owl]

Nah, we just need to carry more of them

[vernal trellis]

I will admit i used to duel with throwing axes

[dull cliff]

Axe Archers need love

[boreal owl]

*Axchers

[vernal trellis]

You ever go into duels with Throwing Axes? You can actually finish people with them with how fast you can throw them

They are indeed strong close range

But they lack damage which is why i prefer Javelin

[boreal owl]

I don't duel because I'm a funny little guy that prefers to spam

[vernal trellis]

Trust me do a duel with them lol its hilarious catching people off guard with it

[full coral]

can you put slugs in your gun in tf2?... if you can thats some new cheat im not aware of

[vernal trellis]

The different variety of weapons they have now you could honestly do that. Idk i stopped playing when they started introducing more weapons into the game basically breaking it at that point. Even the comp teams werent doing that much anymore with the game

[boreal owl]

I do. It's easy

[vernal trellis]

Im pretty sure they have something for Scout and Engineer for high damage shotguns for range

Well actually Scouts default could pump out decent damage at range

hence range weapon lol

[dreamy grotto]

TFW you see a TF2 video for archer balancing in chivalry 2

[vernal trellis]

I know its getting more ridiculous thats why i honestly stopped responding to these archer threads.