We need a no-archers mode, no-archers servers in TO.

[graceful fractal]

Are you simply rejecting the idea of even testing a no archer environment because you think everyone will choose to play it?

[neat cobalt]

You are asking for a playlist to exclude a group of players without worrying about their fun in place of your own correct?

[tender kindle]

it's not like archer players can't queue into it

[graceful fractal]

I don't see why there is so much reason to argue against the existence of a no-archer environment unless you think enough players will decide that archer is a net negative to the game and their game experience that you won't be able to play archer

[agile marsh]

I mean, a minimum level of skill is expected when playing the class that is capped at 16% of server population. Not meeting that skill requirement is worse than having an empty player slot because dead enemies won't autobalance to your team

In the case of Mount&Blade, archers are a valid replacement for individual player skill because you don't to be a good shot when accuracy in volume exists.

[tender kindle]

just like "melee" players could queue into the archer-only mode, that archers got.

[neat cobalt]

Nope just showing how silly using “my fun” is. Since he doesn’t care about others.

[river pilot]

We should all be playing 64 and sleeping in the missionary like god intended anyway

[neat cobalt]

Nobody asked for an Archer only mode

[tender kindle]

Are you sure?

[agile marsh]

Maybe not but it's a fun little novelty that doesn't overstay its welcome especially if you've got PTSD from M&B archer spam

[river pilot]

I thought the archer only mode was in response to asking for archerless modes tbh

[neat cobalt]

I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the reason

[agile marsh]

And because it's a fun novelty "Mount&Blade in Chiv2" is actually more enjoyable than playing Mount&Blade proper

[neat cobalt]

I think we should make a poll to rename archer “Joy Thief” after this thread.

[graceful fractal]

I don't have as much consideration for the fun of those whose class exists entirely to specifically disregard the fun of other players and to reduce the degree of interactivity in the game, and I would like an optional no-archer mode to prove that theory and to expose other similar pain points in the game if they do become more of a problem in actuality without archer.

There's a reason that the common consensus among veteran players is that they would rather not play archer because they want to be able to have a real back and forth and to directly interact with other players even if that's a more difficult way to enjoy the game as other players get better.

It's as much an interesting experiment with the game design of chivalry 2 as it is something I've really wanted to play as well for the reasons you've brought up about other things maybe becoming worse in the absence of archer, and I'm not sure we aren't already living that given how horrendous most pub TO archers are. My theory is that by not having as many net-negative teammates they'll actually become less of a problem but for the ones so problematic that there has historically been nothing which consistently counters them.

lionspire's defensive catapult when turned around into the attack catapult is an obvious one, for example

[agile marsh]

I'm of the opinion that a no-archer mode will create more problems than it will solve, with some weapons just being straight up better than they would be in a default 40p Team Objective gf game due to the lack of ranged attacks keeping their favorite weapon's usage in check

[river pilot]

With our luck the archerless mode gonna be as bad as volley

[graceful fractal]

in comp we're already living that and the weapon variety would have imploded but for limits on spear and a gentleman's agreement not to have 15 halberds. There aren't any other significantly problematic weapons in the game.

[neat cobalt]

Again you used “my fun” as an excuse while explicitly saying you don’t care about others. How you don’t see the hypocrisy here is wild.

[river pilot]

Now if we could get an archer free playlist

[graceful fractal]

hey, you can keep your sand pit. I want my own too.

torn banner won't even let me build a sand pit for my fun

I would purchase actual server hardware and pay for colo if that's what it took

[neat cobalt]

You understand how this makes you hypocritical right? You can at least admit this?

[tender kindle]

don't really see the harm at trying out a limited time mode, that is kind of the point of those. The polarization here is a bit overkill

[neat cobalt]

I said I hope they get it, I am pointing out his excuse with his fun is hypocritical.

[graceful fractal]

My line stands at mutual disregard. Archer, sniper, and similar designs can only exist in an environment where their fundamental designs disregard other players, and I'll hold such disregard as mutual.

[tender kindle]

everyone is hypocritical of something we're all human

[neat cobalt]

So you can’t admit it? Wild

[tender kindle]

I don't like Blizzard and yet I'm still getting D4

[river pilot]

It’s a personal affront

[neat cobalt]

A few more weeks!

[graceful fractal]

d4 does seem like it's addressing some significant gripes I've had with ARPG design, so I'll probably try it and then cry when the solutions don't scale

[tender kindle]

point is y'all are nickel and diming each others' words for little gotcha moments. keeping the convo constructive is how changes are made

[lime turtle]

💯

[tender kindle]

happy with what I've seen so far, staying cautiously optimistic

[river pilot]

Give melee players a headshot bonus you know all things being even

[neat cobalt]

I corrected claims about archers and gave valid answers here.

Then pointed out how he is worried about “his fun” as a main issue while discrediting others.

I was very clear here and didn’t “5 & 10”

[neat cobalt]

Isn’t the bonus taking it off?

Because Archers only kill other Archers with 1.

[tender kindle]

he gave feedback and then you gave yours and you both shook hands and went on your merry way, right?

man if we called it a day there that'd be a huge archer W

[river pilot]

Nah only projectiles like throwing knives and javs

And arrows

[neat cobalt]

A debate doesn’t end on presenting ideas lol. It’s about working through them.

I even said I hope they get it and highlighted what would be over powered in the absence of Archers.

For some reason Melee players fun is the gold standard of everything though.

[tender kindle]

that's why this is a feedback forum and not a debate hall, people shouldn't be arguing in feedback threads, it is harder to parse the information

[neat cobalt]

No it’s about debates go look when they put it in from Connect. I think he said they liked seeing a place to exchange ideas.

[graceful fractal]

hey, I've used interactivity and actual manageability as standards as well.
In melee I can only be punished for genuine overextension whereas archers can punish me for existing even if I don't overextend, especially on many maps with designs where there is no section where there is actually nowhere outside of sightline and no ammo crates outside of an archer sightline such as significant portions of Aberfell or Falmire or Stronghold or Baudwyn or Askandir

[neat cobalt]

Didn’t we cover how to avoid this? Like there is a whole player option? But it wasn’t fun if I recall .

[graceful fractal]

true, we can limit ourselves to 2 out of 9 melee subclasses and use an extremely limited subset of weapons

and we can also just hold parry permanently while staring at an archer

that sounds like fun

and highly interactive

[neat cobalt]

So although we have multiple tools to solve the problem we don’t want to use them.

[graceful fractal]

that definitely doesn't take away from the game in any way by encouraging players to hypercentralize on particular options without any practical alternative solutions

[tender kindle]

"For some reason Melee players fun is the gold standard of everything though"

"I think we should make a poll to rename archer “Joy Thief” after this thread."

"I want a non ballista mode it takes my fun away and is to easy to do well"

"Sure , this guy is saying it’s fine guys wrap it up."

These little digs are what I mean as sarcastic and unhelpful, unconstructive. You can make good points without the underhanded remarks, I know you can

[neat cobalt]

Go ahead and quote all the lies and misinformation I countered about Archers? Wait are those not measured the same?

[graceful fractal]

weapons are a significant portion of updates specifically because they unfold a new layer of interplay in the game by adding to the variety of possible playstyles. There are many players whose playstyles are utterly incompatible with MAA or Guardian. Just because I can play everything and often play shield(my cav sword is level 48 right now) doesn't mean that players should be able to be forced to do so.

[agile marsh]

You can also use the Vanguard's superior speed and erratic movements to misdirect an archer's aim.

[graceful fractal]

the only class in the entire game which forces specific class choice is archer

[neat cobalt]

Nobody is forcing you to play a certain way. You can choose a class but deal with the down sides correct?

Like Rock Paper Scissors?

Archer doesn’t force anything. You can practice arrow deflection 1/1000 the time you have Melee timing and be a god.

[graceful fractal]

rock paper roll the dice in this case, because the class stratification is best felt in melee and by the impact class differences have on melee weapons but for shields and archery.

[agile marsh]

Yes, the Devastator and Raider are "vulnerable to ranged attacks" as per in-game tool tips but vulnerable != helpless

[neat cobalt]

Again doesn’t every class have upsides and downsides?

[river pilot]

You can counter an arrow but if it’s a slow weapon you’re just gonna eat the second one

Really depends on weapon recovery

[graceful fractal]

You know there are significant ranged attacks other than archer and skirmisher lite(ambusher) right? Those ranged attacks even come with theoretically significant downsides(losing primary weapons) and lower ammunition counts due to being your primary weapons. They're even blockable in most situations due to the projectile arcs with longer windup times(other than dane axe which throws as fast as throwing knives), and even then they can be problematic and outright remove all counterplay under the right conditions.

There's also unblockable throws, but that's a separate can of shit for another thread.

[neat cobalt]

You didn’t answer my question.

[graceful fractal]

which one?

[tender kindle]

at least shields on your back block projectiles now so that's nice

[agile marsh]

He thinks that archer has no downsides. I still wonder if his opinion on archers would be different if he fought archers in M&B

[graceful fractal]

"It's worse in another game so it's fine for them to be bad here" is still not an argument

it's copium at best

if you want a more direct line, chivalry 1 had archers far more powerful than chiv 2 complete with knight oneshots

[agile marsh]

Except Chiv archers aren't nearly as bad as you're making them out to be. In fact, as soon as WB goes on sale at a key seller, I'm gonna buy you a copy

[graceful fractal]

chiv 2 made archers far less powerful because they need to be, and I'm not sure that with the current approach to archer design they can be made less powerful short of being fully removed while still being reasonably playable, yet they're still the most anti-interaction portion of the entire game outside of specific points with especially poor siege weapon design that they fail to counter in the first place.

[agile marsh]

And then you will wish you were fighting Chiv2 archers

[graceful fractal]

that's why a no archer mode is worth at least a suspect test

[graceful fractal]

there's a reason I haven't chosen to play mount and blade, and it's not financial

[agile marsh]

If you did play it, you'd know how OP archers are in Chiv2: not

[graceful fractal]

you pointed at a post-nerf highland sword as a melee suspect in a game where you can stack 1h spears and make a lobby literally unplayable, especially if you mix halberds, 2h spears, and 1h spears to make no other weapons pickable in the lobby. I'm not sure I trust your balance assessment.
I believe the optimal ratio of halberd to 2h spear to 1h spear was something like 6:2:1 or 3:1:0 in a environment with only halberds and spears, and in such an environment the glaive actually shows some niche uses due to being long and offering interrupts which rival spear.

field engineer never loses use because it's the most important class in the entire game of course(when constructables aren't messed up)

the 2h spear mostly ends up obsoleting the presence of 1h spear and you kind of just want them for banners

[neat cobalt]

#1100861750863204373 message

[river pilot]

Arrows don’t even have a chance to down players maybe start with that

[neat cobalt]

Fun fact Arrows even Warbow sometimes take 2 arrows to kill downed people.

[graceful fractal]

ah yeah, and the upsides and downsides are still significantly prominent with no archer present.
Poleman gets a borderline gamebreaking sprint charge in exchange for poor stamina and a subpar amount of hp which can situationally cause worse hit to kills than vanguard... for the footman, for example.

Field Engineer gets poor stamina game and only one weapon in exchange for being the most important class in the game.

Vanguard is susceptible to bladed weapons and throws.

Knight has inferior movement and halved dodge cooldowns.

[graceful fractal]

that's because banners can heal players who are downed and they actually have their normal hp bar separate from the down expiration timer

[neat cobalt]

The answer is just yes

[graceful fractal]

and that doesn't meaningfully change a single point I've made against archer so I don't see the point in your question

the classes have significant interplay and choices to make without archer

[neat cobalt]

It shows you understand classes have advantages and disadvantages

Can you list an Archers disadvantages?

[graceful fractal]

low stamina and hp is counteracted by juggling your spawn waves and appropriately doing a single counter and groundhit disengaging. Archer has reasonable movespeed which enables escapes from essentially any situation. The downside of archer is they can die fast if they fuck up at all, but it's not like good archers enable themselves to fuck up easily

I've won FFA lobbies with pure crossbowman melee around good players, for example

simply playing melee well removes the meaningful downsides of archer

[neat cobalt]

So bad faith

[graceful fractal]

what am I going to do if the archer simply handles my engage properly and has a spawn wave within 5 seconds to bail them out? This game is designed so that defensives in melee are extraordinarily strong and even mediocre players can't be killed quickly if they turtle.

the main downside of archer melee weapons is they all have small counter windows, but frankly that's just a skill issue

any random counter bot can make themselves borderline unkillable if they simply walk away from fights

that's actually one of the reasons defense becomes so strong in coordinated environments

[neat cobalt]

• lowest health
• lowest stamina
• Ammo dependent
• Poor weapon choice on Bow versions

That’s what listing downsides looks like not bad faith comments

[river pilot]

Does lowest health and stam mean anything if you can avoid fights altogether?

[graceful fractal]

archer's ability to counterplay downsides is superior to melee's ability to counterplay downsides

their downsides simply do not hold the same weight

[neat cobalt]

That’s player dependent not class

[neat cobalt]

• Shield
• Ammo
• Deflect
• Brace

[river pilot]

It’s a risk reward issue

[neat cobalt]

Those are all counter plays

[graceful fractal]

archers are at worst low to no risk medium reward whereas melee players take various degrees of risk for varying degrees of reward depending on your level of play

[neat cobalt]

Archers don’t take risk?

Bad faith on bad faith

[graceful fractal]

what risk is there in sitting in your spawn waves 24/7?

[agile marsh]

I recall one person on the Steam forums saying that you might wanna move closer if you even want to land hits at best and check movement at worst

[graceful fractal]

the game is primarily 64p and you're getting a spawn wave of several players every 5 seconds or so

[neat cobalt]

Where does a ranged class need to play?

Not all archers play back

[neat cobalt]

It’s 5-30

[river pilot]

Shoot back without risk

[neat cobalt]

Arrow trail

[graceful fractal]

that's not wrong as you saw in my longbow video, however you can play further back than spear and simply be outside of the melee engagement to a degree where you aren't able to be meaningfully chased. If you pull out a secondary and run away as you see your team begin to crumble you aren't going to get caught.

even if you get caught, the majority of the time you will disengage successfully

[agile marsh]

I mean, if you camp at the far back, the chances of even hitting things are dismal due to projectile trails, travel time, and gravity

[neat cobalt]

You just compared a spear to a ranged class?

[agile marsh]

You'd have to have an intimate knowledge of Chiv2's ballistics to have to consistently land hits

[graceful fractal]

spear is the safest melee weapon in the game. It takes significantly more risk because it's at the shortest possible end of the mid-range

[neat cobalt]

Does it lose damage playing at range?

[graceful fractal]

if you tried to play at the optimal longbow range it wouldn't be able to hit anyone

also stabbing through teammates really should have hitstop but that's another thread(actually I think I forgot to make that one)

[neat cobalt]

Didn’t answer

[agile marsh]

I'll admit that I don't play archer enough to know exactly how fast an arrow is, so I'll just leave it to my teammates to shoot the Bow unless there's a problematic enemy that I have to switch classes despite my godawful aim

[graceful fractal]

do archers lose damage playing at range?

[neat cobalt]

Are you serious?

[graceful fractal]

are you?

[neat cobalt]

This proves my point the loudest critics know the least

[river pilot]

Can’t even ask for a temporary gamemode nowadays

[graceful fractal]

if I want to maximize the output of the 2h spear I will simply end up in environments in which I'm in danger. If I were to maximize the output of archer I'd want to be at a range where the 2h spear can't hit anything anyway, and that's even compared to a weapon specifically known for its comparatively safe disengage potential.

[neat cobalt]

I said I hope you get a few times

[graceful fractal]

I don't see the value of your point

[river pilot]

Keeper can’t imagine people hate archer as much as he loves it

[neat cobalt]

Because you don’t care if I am right you just want to vent no matter how wrong

[neat cobalt]

My favorite is actually 2 Hand Maul.

First 100 kill game was with it

[river pilot]

All with the most powerful maul stab no doubt

[neat cobalt]

Overhead mostly

[wheat pecan]

This 'counter ground hit and run away' isn't the gotcha you think it is.

Like we can throw weapons, there's a chase mechanic, there's feints and other methods to force you to continue to fight

Like try that against a spear and you're just getting hit in the back, try that against a 1H sword and you're getting hit, throwing knives, axes and mallets

And the ultimate counter, other archers

[graceful fractal]

you say that like I don't do it as knight, a slower class, in LTS, a game mode where players can even more choose to tie one player down

[arctic folio]

arrows don't flinch you

[wheat pecan]

Ok then what's the issue

[neat cobalt]

They don’t even cancel disarms lol

A headshot should 100% stop you from disarming lol

[graceful fractal]

I'm talking about disengaging, not about keeping people in melee

I disengage off of spears for target switches regularly unpunished

[arctic folio]

what do you mean by cancelling a disarm?

[graceful fractal]

and that's from actual comp players on spear

[graceful fractal]

interrupting the disarm lockout probably

just like how fists don't interrupt bandaging

[wheat pecan]

I mean I'm weapon rank 300 with spear lol

[neat cobalt]

If you get hit while disarming it will interrupt you, but since Arrows don’t interrupt you can keep disarming.

Another neat disadvantage to Archers

[graceful fractal]

yes and some of these comp players have rank 700 spear like banker does lol

I don't think your weapon rank matters here

banker isn't the best spear player in LTS, it's a bunch of players who only have like rank 100-200 spear

[wheat pecan]

Your implication of "actual comp'players as a means to discredit what I'm saying

[graceful fractal]

one you've put an amount of time into a weapon there's diminishing returns in weapon-specific skill

[neat cobalt]

I don’t think Sunder can go 2 comments without reverting to talking about comp here

[neat cobalt]

If you are doing it wrong I suppose

[wheat pecan]

I mean that's endemic of any skill, just playing a game in general you'll always have a curve of progression

[graceful fractal]

it's the environment in which the limits of a weapon are most tested

[neat cobalt]

Lol ok

[wheat pecan]

Ok but we're not too concerned about limits we're more concerned about the 99%

[graceful fractal]

I didn't really like longsword until I found its place by being forced into a situation where I could really need it

[graceful fractal]

the 99% is so terrible that these balance arguments don't even matter for them

[wheat pecan]

That's a great mindset

[neat cobalt]

It’s wild

[graceful fractal]

the game is mostly balanced enough that for the average TO player there isn't significant problems in melee

[neat cobalt]

I have beat a ton of the “comp melee” boys with a Cudgel in TO

[graceful fractal]

you've got closer to smash ultimate kinds of balance gaps outside of outlier weapons like katar

instead of smash melee kind of "half of the cast is invalid"

[wheat pecan]

I don't even understand what you're getting at tbh, if you don't like outliers and chaos just go duel lmao

Like they figured out perfect balance it's called fighting the same class with the same weapon. Everything else is never going to be perfect

[neat cobalt]

Mirror Match duels when?

[graceful fractal]

that's the thing, even 64p isn't uncontrollable degrees of chaos in melee. It was in 64p I managed to get a 40 kill game fist only with no offhand, for example. Perfect balance isn't expected, dittos only isn't expected. There's "not perfectly balanced gameplay" and there's "outright mechanically asymmetric gameplay", and the latter is what I consider more unwelcome.

[wheat pecan]

Mechanically asymmetric gameplay is awesome. That's what makes games fun.

Like if you want to go play CSGO that's a choice

[graceful fractal]

the AWP has been one of the most argued points of balance in all of gaming and has been people's outright breaking point for CS for decades

that's not the least contentious option you could've picked

[wheat pecan]

But everyone can use it.

[neat cobalt]

Can’t everyone pick Archer also?

[wheat pecan]

Oh wait no we locked it up lmao

[graceful fractal]

are we going back to "grind archer so you can play one thing against archer or play shields only against archer instead of using the wide variety of weapons in the game"?

that's a waste of time, break the circle

[wheat pecan]

No actually we're going to archers aren't that big of a deal and you probably have confirmation bias

[neat cobalt]

Probably?

How often are you dying to Archers in a game 5 of your 20?

[wheat pecan]

I don't even run any of these subclasses that counter archers and hande no issues figuring it out

Like you can gamble about 10 different choices

[neat cobalt]

I legit die to Archers less than I do Cats and Ballistas

[wheat pecan]

And tbh the real issues with archers are just shitty players. Like I love to crossbow headshot, throw the crossbow and follow up with a heavy overhead with the 1H axe

All you have to do is counter during the throw windup and you get a free hit with a handful of weapons that's a free kill

[neat cobalt]

For real you will encounter 99 bad Archers before a good one.

[wheat pecan]

Cus archers bad

And good players don't play bad classes

At least not regularly

[neat cobalt]

I just hope everyone is having fun

[wheat pecan]

Well I'm not

Cus of those God damn archers

I die one time to circumstances outside of my control and frankly my days ruined

[neat cobalt]

I’m going to start arguing that fun is better than balance.

[wheat pecan]

It's okay if I get maul special attacked tho cus I should have seen it coming and it's a skill issue

[neat cobalt]

One hit kills on classes are fine because it’s fun to me

[graceful fractal]

now that y'all have gotten nice and sticky I'd just like to reiterate that we should have a mode without archers.

just make sure to wash your hands now that you're done

[wheat pecan]

It would split up the player base too much

[neat cobalt]

How long until he mentions comp?

[wheat pecan]

Maybe a limited time mode but full time would be problematic at best

[graceful fractal]

a limited time mode to suspect test is really the least we'd ask, and then torn banner can work with whatever stats they get from that

[neat cobalt]

Limited or a Server Browser so they can easily find their safe place

[graceful fractal]

or perhaps they can just let us host our own servers

[wheat pecan]

Don't get ahead yourself there

Then we'd be able to actually enjoy ourselves

God forbid custom content

[neat cobalt]

Custom servers would be nice. I would have a no specials server because they are lame

[wheat pecan]

They don't want anyone keeping their games alive after they expire

[neat cobalt]

Magic Horn? Ok Game of Thrones

[graceful fractal]

I do think there's some significant game design considerations to be had about most of the specials just being boring super overheads and not powerful utility options offering things the rest of the weapon doesn't like with poleaxe or rapier

especially the 1h overhand specials

[wheat pecan]

Nerf 2H spear special

[graceful fractal]

2h spear special should instakill horses

[wheat pecan]

Oh wait they already did for no fucking reason

They added stamina drain

And guess what if you cancel a tackle it does a cool 30 damage

Unlike the instant kill every other spike does

[graceful fractal]

it's also the only spike hitbox in the game which isn't terrible

every other spike has unconscionable backhits

[wheat pecan]

Like when you put it up as a ramp and jump off and instead take a bit and bounce back 3ft?

Hit*

[graceful fractal]

exactly, or when you end up in a perpetual secret knockback state while fully actionable and walk within an askandir super bookcase radius of a spike

[wheat pecan]

Haven't experienced that one yet

[agile marsh]

Me: archers are easy kills when you can make them miss
Also me: gets bullied to death by crossbow stabs and overheads

[wheat pecan]

There's no greater satisfaction than a good crossbow melee kill

[neat cobalt]

I’m a big fan of jumping 360 Warbow finishers on downed opponents (failed flankers) , Melee of course.

[tender kindle]

melee of course 😏 who else would be flanking you

[neat cobalt]

Flanking Archers are great. Seeing how you can reach into that dreaded grey zone and there are always great angles.

This also comes with knowing the class, Ammo locations to enable and timing waves. You know awareness

[jade timber]

This clusterfuck of a post has reminded me how much I enjoy crossbowman. Just a sucker for support I guess 🤷‍♂️

[neat cobalt]

I think I would be at 1,000 if I stayed a crossbow main. You have such a large impact and get so many damn points off those banners.

[jade timber]

My only problem now is I have fps-itus and flick all my shots. Which makes me miss a lot lol.

Gotta break the muscle memory.

[neat cobalt]

The crossbow has an amazing drag shot if you paint chest to head or from head to chest.

Once you practice enough you can get some stupid drags with it, if you played Halo it’s pretty much the same mechanics as drag shots on it.

[jade timber]

Ooh good tip. I’m on it.

[rain mural]

This is the way.

[neat cobalt]

I’m glad we can use this thread that was filled with massive misinformation to at least help some of the new players and counter failed talking points.

[lime turtle]

banners are amazing lol

[river pilot]

Exactly why this game lives or dies without a free player base.

Got me longing for Mord to come out on console. Archers are only a minor nuisance while being able to deal 109 dmg from distance

Absolute nonsense

[lime turtle]

in summary if a limited-time "no archers" mode came out ill def try it out as it would be a cool twist. But lets be real whenever we lose a match no one is blaming archers for the teams loss 😂 Far bigger factors out there etc

id say only 10% of them are actually good and a challenge to kill. The rest just get blindsided as they have tunnel vision focusing on one target

[river pilot]

The game will die on this hill and they won’t even give us a healthy alternative or outlet. We’ve had influxes in player population but even for a “niche game” that survives on multiplayer it has a hard time keeping the population.

[neat cobalt]

Because of hit reg issues for the most part.

Archers are extremely low on why people quit this game.

You will die more because of desyncs in a day than Archers.

[river pilot]

I would say dying to arrows in a 1vX because they aren’t blocked by active parry is more of a reason to quit than a sword phasing through someone

[neat cobalt]

Both are deaths outside your control?

But you could have avoided the 1vX not the desync correct?

[river pilot]

A sword phases through someone it’s all of 2 seconds to swing again, block or jab, you see it a lot when players disconnect and they continue running and everyone is just swinging through them. Dying to an arrow is in a 1vX takes you out of the fight because game has a risk reward problem

But I’m sure this time all the new players will stay even though the game hasn’t changed

[neat cobalt]

I’m digging this new talking point of the “Risk Reward system”.

Let’s expand on this

What’s the Risk vs Reward individually for Melee and Archer?

Break it up into 2 comments if possible

[river pilot]

If you miss in melee you usually get punished, archers get the bravery of being out of range.

[neat cobalt]

That’s it?

[river pilot]

Headshot bonus, not blocked by active parry, no chance to down players

[neat cobalt]

Can you miss more than 12 times as Melee and still put out damage at your designed range?

[river pilot]

Yeah cause there is risk in attacking in melee

[neat cobalt]

There isn’t one in ranged?

[river pilot]

If you miss an arrow you aren’t punished for just shooting another one

Risk vs reward

[neat cobalt]

Losing space, stamina and giving away your location are all risk correct?

Long time to say yes

[river pilot]

No cause cause it’s not like drawing a bow makes you stationary or unable to crouch. And the stamina drain doesn’t prevent you from immediately drawing another arrow

Not like missing an overhead in melee where you’re in melee range to get punished for missing

This should be obvious and easy

[neat cobalt]

So losing space to Melee isn’t a risk …?

Giving away your location to other Archers ( who can 1 shot you) isn’t a risk….?

Using your finite resource for damage isn’t a risk….?

Using your limited Stamina isn’t a risk…?

You should either admit you are talking in bad faith or acknowledge these are risk.

[river pilot]

But like I said game should stay the same and I’m sure we won’t get the same results

[neat cobalt]

Are you able to be one shot after missing 1 Melee attack?

At full health…?

[river pilot]

Arrows not being blocked by active parry or having a chance to down players is always going to make it a risk reward issue. You live long enough in melee to die to arrows that’s the game balance they went for

[neat cobalt]

You are ignoring my points and questions

[river pilot]

I don’t have to respond to nonsense. When headshot bonus, not blocked by active parry and no chance to down players is the risk reward issues I’ve stated.

[neat cobalt]

So you are only debating in bad faith?

[river pilot]

I gotta do other stuff throughout my day and it’d be a waste of time to respond to everything

[tender kindle]

ammo hardly finite when you just park next to an ammo box

[neat cobalt]

Most ammo boxes are not where an Archer should be. Really just TDM maps.

[neat cobalt]

When you want to pick back up on acknowledgment of Risk let me know bud.

[river pilot]

Ok bb

[tender kindle]

I'm sure wherever you are it doesn't take more than a few seconds to reach an ammo box, they are everywhere.

[neat cobalt]

So it is finite?

[river pilot]

Only if you can’t pick any up

[tender kindle]

...only if your arms are chopped off?

[river pilot]

Dane axe throw’s could be finite if you couldn’t pick it up

[tender kindle]

you are interrupted from shooting for a brief moment which doesn't feel as crippling as it's being described

[neat cobalt]

So how is an Archer supposed to do ranged damage if he isn’t near an Ammo box and his “not finite” ammo is at 0? Go get more correct….?

So it would be almost like it’s limited in scope here until you get more? Like it fits the literal definition of finite?

[tender kindle]

I'm not debating the technical definition of finite. It's a yes and no answer because you don't just run out forever. You are always near an ammo box.

[neat cobalt]

No it’s a yes it’s literal finite, but like Coffee on Risk vs Reward you don’t want to acknowledge I am right.

[river pilot]

I think Archer class is the perfect argument for risk Vs reward in a game. It’s so obvious

[neat cobalt]

I listed plenty of risk didn’t I?

I also asked you to expand on that with a Melee only and a Archer only.

[tender kindle]

Shields break, but you can't replenish them, almost more of a risk there in weight, no?

[neat cobalt]

What tangent are you on about?

[river pilot]

I shouldn’t even have to explain it.

[neat cobalt]

I’m actually amazed you won’t acknowledge the risk I presented because it goes against your narrative

[tender kindle]

Uh I'm on topic? You are talking about risk vs reward on melee vs archer, I listed a melee example.

we haven't scrolled far

[river pilot]

The class that can put in dmg from a desertion zone is risky guys

[neat cobalt]

No the Risk vs Reward talking point was Coffe.

I asked him to expand on it and he refuses to

[tender kindle]

ease up on the sarcasm helps neither side

[neat cobalt]

But absolutely a shield break is a valid risk , I haven’t claimed Melee don’t have risk.. less or more

[river pilot]

I thought I was being obvious

Like this whole argument

[neat cobalt]

If you can’t expand on a talking point I would avoid using it. It shows that it is exactly that .

[tender kindle]

I know but they can do it a million times and if you do it once it gets pointed out, don't let it be used as ammo

[neat cobalt]

If I responded in kind to the insults against me here I would have been muted already.

I have presented clear and detailed explanations of anything I claimed.

[tender kindle]

it was general and about no one specific, like not letting a bully rile you enough to hit them

just be careful not to cross over into territory where its just passive aggression and insults and keep your points clear

[neat cobalt]

Oh nothing here is even close to being able to anger me. I love debating this.

[tender kindle]

yes yes you've made it clear how not mad you are and how very mad everyone else is, let's move on

[neat cobalt]

The only time I have said mad in this thread is quoting someone lol

[river pilot]

Either that or continue doing the same thing and expecting different results

[lime turtle]

[hard trail]

Guns will be added to archer

[agile marsh]

Warband managed to enjoy a decade of multiplayer activity. Earlier years definitely sucked as they do now but IIRC, 2017 was around the time when "gentleman's rules" were established regarding how the game should be played. When archers aren't being spammed, most of the factions were surprisingly balanced

Chiv2 is still a replacement to Bannerlord's MP in all but name due to Taleworlds insisting on certain imbalances being in place

[wheat pecan]

There's plenty of circumstances where you miss with melee and aren't at risk of being punished. I spam stabs from out of range with 2H spear and it's not a big deal to miss unless someone's being very intentional

You're also looking at a huge difference in consistency and DPS. I can erase a vanguard in all of two seconds with 2h spear, charge from a distance, kick, stab. If you get hit with an arrow, even in the head it's not going to kill you from full health and you have something to the tune of 3 seconds before the next ones coming at you and it's extremely easy to miss.

[rain mural]

https://youtu.be/SJMbxZ1k9NQ

[teal drum]

You are the one debating in bad faith from the start, reusing old points already debunked again and again.
You just can't accept the fact that your favorite class is just an unfunny nuisance.
That's why archers are the only ones so hated in the game.
I guess your tactic now is to make this conversation toxic to make it closed like your friend with the last one.
Really every points in this conversation proves me right in the other one, you shouldn't even be able to participate to this debate, as you label yourself an archer 100%, even your avatar is an archer.
Ofc you will defend it to the extreme.
The topic is having a no archer mode btw, not debating how unlegit is their presence in the game.

[teal drum]

Archers can easily finish off from a distance and are safe even if they miss as long as they move often and hide behind the fighters.
There is no such thing as being safe in melee distance, even aiming for someone's back or ganging up is not safe against a skilled player, only noobs give easy and free kills. And not all of them, there are skilled and lucky noobs too.

[neat cobalt]

Again we have the majority of the people saying it should be a limited time mode. I even said I stayed to correct misinformation.

Nothing I have said has been “a debunked talking point” or bad faith. You would have listed them if that was true.

In the future when you try to attack me make sure your comment is at least partially true and not just a giant poorly worded bait.

Thanks peach

[teal drum]

I join Coffeecup in his choice to ignore your pointless comments from now on.

[neat cobalt]

Thank you and it appears you did it for the same reason as him.

[river pilot]

My reason is not wasting time explaining the obvious

[neat cobalt]

Lmao you refused to acknowledge risk stop capping

[river pilot]

Lmao you think an arrow trail is a risk

What a joke

[neat cobalt]

Back to bad faith lol

[wheat pecan]

So they're dependent on other players and are forced to adopt less effective ranges in exchange for true safety. I don't see the issue here. It's the least efficient class for killing enemy players and its intended as a support role. Most games have support roles that have to trade safety for effectiveness, its nothing new or unique here.

And there's no such thing as being safe at range either when every other class in the game has some flavor of a ranged weapon.

like at best you can be totally off away from combat and lob arrows and maybe you'll get a takedown credit or a lucky headshot once in a while but that just doesn't seem like a huge issue

[teal drum]

Your say they have less effective range if they move, it is wrong, on the contrary, you can hide behind fighters and still have clear shots, as demonstrated tonight by an archer mate who always finish in the 5 first places and less than 8 deaths.
It is so unbalanced to frag people from a distance while they are fencing away, the only danger for archer is to stay put and let the fighters spot them and run toward them. When you have 3+ fighters before you, you just can't spot an archer around. You are blinded by the intense action. Then you get shot easy by any archer around. There are so many spots in so many maps.
Dynamic archers that always move with the action definately score high and die less, without breaking a sweat.
So yes, we want a no archer mode to see how it turns with a true contest of skills, technical, tactical, etc... instead of having your fights ended by an arrow from who knows where.

[wheat pecan]

I mean the same shit happens with Dane axes, throwing knives, etc. Frankly I just don't see the hang up and actually enjoy the dynamic it adds to fights. If I'm pressuring a flank and suddenly am getting peppered with arrows it forces me to adapt. Whether that's retreating, using enemies as cover or closing the gap to try and kill the archer. So what it's easy? It's like getting nuked with artillery in a milsim, just an environmental factor you have to deal with. Not to mention dodging arrows isn't all that difficult, quick serpentine movements, crouch manipulation or placing a constructable are all simple enough. Like it's far from consistent to put an arrow on a target, no matter how easy it seems when you're getting plinked.

My big hangup is that an archer-free gamemode seems like it would be very playerbase dividing and just hurt the overall health of the servers in the game. You can duel or play 3v3 to get that experience if you truly want something that isn't so chaotic.

[river pilot]

Serpentine movements and dodging isn’t strong against aim assist and arrow magnetism.

And as is the playerbase survives off an influx’s of free to play players. And it’s not because of the bugs present in the game.

We’re also ignoring that along with having less risk archers spawn in and can put in dmg while melee has to physically run to where enemies/objectives are and it’s not like archers get longer spawns to offset this

[neat cobalt]

What risk are you now saying Archers have?

Don’t Archers have a bigger risk from other Archers than Melee does from Archers? You aren’t dying in 1 hit and you have the health pool to survive 3 non Headshots.

Archers are the easiest class to spawn kill … you know that right? I do it every game. You ignore everyone and eliminate them first on a spawn wave in 1 shot. How many does it take to kill your class again?

So how are they safe/safer on spawn again?

[teal drum]

You can't compare throwing your main weapon once and having an unlimited amount of arrows and doing it as your main activity.
And from way further, it is a non sens to compare the two things.

[teal drum]

Also the issue with archer is being killed while fighting other fighters. You can not see them at those moments. It is what is the most despicable with archers because they just ruin your fun without taking any risk.

[raw gyro]

What would you replace archers with?

that's melee focused.

if we're so eager to remove it. best have a backup plan to what to put in place for it.

[violet narwhal]

I don’t see what was controversial about the OP’s original suggestion: it would be nice if the game gave melee players who don’t like archers a way to play TO and TDM without them.

[raw gyro]

neither do i but it kinda devolved to, suggestion of removal

which i'm asking if they did what would they add, cause if you're gunna yeet away a core mechanic better add a new one

[violet narwhal]

I didn’t get the sense the OP was suggesting anything be added in that mode. Players would just take additional loadouts from the 3 existing melee classes.

[raw gyro]

I Disagree, the phrase.

"Range units in a melee game". That sums it up really good why we want them archers out.

Implies or out right suggests removal

If he meant it as just for gamemode only? They should of added that in addition to the rant.

[violet narwhal]

It says “mode” in the title of OP’s post.

[teal drum]

I would replace them with absolutely nothing.
Let the fencers fencing.

Archers are not part of the core mechanic and IMO they just spoil it.
Now I suggest a mod, not it to be the main thing. But to have to choice the get rid of them when we feel like it.

[raw gyro]

yeah but later makes a statement in as a whole and i'll end that here given above he's actually made a valid retort

[raw gyro]

you don't think of anything that could replace archer that could would benefit to the game as a whole?

is that out of lack of imagination or just the fact you think nothing needs added.

[river pilot]

There’s no need to replace archers with anything

The whole point is not being shot with arrows, or javs chucked at you. Replace being shot with not being shot

[raw gyro]

remove one thing another will take it's place

spam from throwing knives may be next, or just general items.

[river pilot]

What ambushers? Knives don’t work the same way arrows do. They aren’t doing 70 dmg for a body shot

[raw gyro]

so you wouldn't mind arrows if they didn't do 70 damage?

[river pilot]

Also the aim assist isn’t nearly as strong as arrows

[raw gyro]

really? maybe this is just a me thing then cause when i throw a box, my aim auto-locks onto people very heavily.

as bad arrows i'd say, it's not cutting corners but by god my aim auto-locks heavily

[river pilot]

Throwing is way harder especially on console where most of the population is at now a days

[raw gyro]

I agree throwing is harder on consoles due to the awkward button prompts

[river pilot]

Like half the time throwing comes out as an overhead or stab, I’ll take that then an arrow that doesn’t even have a chance to down a person

[raw gyro]

well if that's what you think

[river pilot]

Even then ambushers get all of 7 knives, they don’t have quiver anymore, the community can barely throw to compare them to a class that has the ammo 12-20 that does more dmg from a further distance and harder to counter. It’s not even a replacement

Also most classes have throwing knives, axes, mallets,

[neat cobalt]

I am sure you can source this claim right?

[river pilot]

It’s on Gamepass and free on ps+ unless the steam numbers have changed

[neat cobalt]

This isn’t a source

Gamepass also includes Pc

[river pilot]

The pc Gamepass version that doesn’t have chat?

[neat cobalt]

But is on PC yes

See you can admit I am right!

[river pilot]

You think there’s more people playing PC version over consoles right now?

[neat cobalt]

I don’t make claims I can’t back up. That appears to be a common thing with you though.

The console, epic and Gamepass don’t share player numbers so to make a claim is baseless.

[river pilot]

Can’t look around at the lvls around you?

[neat cobalt]

You mean use confirmation bias of the games I am in to count the player base? Again not a valid source for a claim.

[river pilot]

Between seeing other xbox players and playing the game I can figure it out. Something you have a hard time grasping

It’s pretty obvious

[neat cobalt]

You play all regions? Of course not so as I said you are using confirmation bias, you do understand that right?

The only people who know the accurate Platform numbers are the Devs.

[river pilot]

But then again you want me to explain the obvious

What a waste of time

[neat cobalt]

I’m sorry yet another claim of yours failed bud, I do enjoy your effort though.

[river pilot]

Ohhh I don’t know the numbers officially so no one really knows

[neat cobalt]

So you are making a claim based off your own experience right? Do you know what that is called?

[river pilot]

Probably more console players just saying jeez

No need to get in a tiffy to react to your own posts

[neat cobalt]

Implying I’m angry for asking you to back up a claim is a weird approach.

[river pilot]

Back up what? The obvious again? Not worth my time.

[neat cobalt]

Claiming something and your source being “trust me bro” is always a good laugh.

[river pilot]

And I ask you if you think there’s more pc and gave me a bland ass no one knows

[neat cobalt]

I literally gave you an exact factual answer to why nobody can make the claim.

[river pilot]

At least I have conviction with my claim

[neat cobalt]

Believing your own claims doesn’t make them true. But good on you for alternative facts and presenting them.

[hard trail]

Archers are ez

Just block

[river pilot]

The player count is just like how many licks it takes to the center of a tootsie pop

[neat cobalt]

That would be different for everyone so that is a poor metaphor.

[river pilot]

Do you not know the commercial? The whole point is the world may never know

[neat cobalt]

I’m well aware of the commercial, my point is that it’s a poor metaphor because the Player count could be known the Devs just won’t release it. It wouldn’t changed per person.

Whereas the Manufacturer of the sucker wouldn’t be able to say because everyone number is different.

[river pilot]

Or if we could see the other platforms

[neat cobalt]

Xbox and PS+ only release info when the Devs do it themselves see COD and GTA for examples.

I don’t recall Epic ever releasing info outside Fortnite.

[river pilot]

But there’s some movement stuff like indefinite spinning on controller that you can tell this person is on controller on another platform

Or they keep trying to throw but it comes out as an overhead

[neat cobalt]

Forever spinning can happen on PC at spawn, You ever played TF2 when it used to reward in game people? Same with WoW when servers are at long ques.

Throwing maybe but that can be a poor keyboard layout issue also.

[river pilot]

Not bugged unplugged mouse kinda spinning. More like goofing around in duels spamming emotes and giving a bunch of spins. Pc can spin but they have to spin back the other way eventually

[neat cobalt]

Unless you bind it to a scroll wheel

[river pilot]

I’ve never heard of anyone using that. And I’ve seen a lot of weird pc settings through duel streams

Seems like it’d be awful maybe I’ll suggest Dylan try it

[teal drum]

It is about taking off something making the game less interesting.
If you want to add something else you are free to propose in another topic of your own.
This query is just 1000% off topic.

[lime turtle]

i'm fine with it as a limited time mode to at least try it out and see how things go. It wouldn't hurt in that respect. As a permanent choice imo it would divide up the servers as its literally one of the core classes of the game. I know we have other games like Fortnite had major additions such as their no-build mode which is a HUGE difference to core gameplay but their player base is so big it didn't impact anything lol

[lime turtle]

A Tenosian showed up to speak the truth lol 🤝

[violet narwhal]

I’m all for testing, but I suspect the results are predictable. I’ve seen people voice their concern that this would divide servers. I don’t see why that’s a problem; in fact, that would be the point. The people who want to play TO and TDM the way it is now could and those who want to play without archers could.

[river pilot]

Without a healthy alternative the alternative is to play something else. If I wanted to grab a shield, worry about pathing, Dodge projectiles, heal behind cover there’s better games for that. It becomes a bullet hell game at that point might as well play Hades or Enter The Gungeon as those are better more balanced experiences for type of mechanics

[neat cobalt]

Essentially “I want to only think of 5’ in front of me.

[austere oriole]

Volley is the inverse of this entire suggestion ... was removing 90% of the weapons of the game for a limited time game mode "Lacking imagination" in that case?

[wheat pecan]

Get good. Obviously shit happens but for the most part it's not terribly difficult to notice you're getting pelted at. It's not like arrows are heat seeking

[wheat pecan]

Yes. Volley was a sloppy addition.

[wheat pecan]

Yeah you're right those actually have decent ranged choices

[tender kindle]

well on console they kind on are, and there is arguably more console archers than not

[wheat pecan]

Because the playerbase is already pretty small and two dead ques, one of which removes a core feature from the game, seems like a bad idea

[graceful fractal]

archers aren't exactly a core feature and were clearly slapped onto the game with little interaction with the core combat system but for what was added after the fact, and even that is inherently limited

[wheat pecan]

Auto aim really isn't that bad until you're at very close range. I haven't had the experience with getting pelted from a reasonable distance

[graceful fractal]

if you're talking from a game design standpoint and not a thematic standpoint archers don't exactly trip the flags of "part of the core game"

[wheat pecan]

It's one of the 4 main classes, I don't see how you can see that as less than core

[tender kindle]

I mean fair but also completely anecdotal

[graceful fractal]

kind of like pyro in TF2 only really "existing as viable now" because Valve panicked when they realized the class was terrible at everything and gave it airblast

[wheat pecan]

I don't see how you could have more interaction with archers

Like what mechanics do they not have?

They shoot an arrow, you get hit, you die. Not a lot going on there

[graceful fractal]

and that's the problem. They've kind of done what they could've done short of making war bow and crossbow use the power budget of the longbow

and even the longbow, especially when 3 or more archers spawn together, is enough for literally mentally afk console archers to ignore every mechanic which goes against archer as long as they just look at the same target and press their attack button

[wheat pecan]

Unless said target has a shield, or the enemy team has an archer, or a ballista, or someone flanks

Plus you can do that with just about every class in the game. A gaggle of poleman with halberds spamming overhead or vanguard throwing knives en masse

[graceful fractal]

if said target has a shield they're now locked out of being able to move and are a sitting duck in the melee combat.
Flanking isn't broadly viable on 64p even if it works enough to feel good simply because the players are still bad enough that you can out-movement an entire spawn-wave simultaneously.
Ballistas reload slowly enough to be very limited in anti-archer and are generally better invested elsewhere.
A gaggle of polemen spamming overhead can be active countered unless they're actually playing the game with intelligent thought put into their positioning.
Ambusher is the fourth archer subclass.

archer to fight archer is archer not participating in the core gameplay loop

[wheat pecan]

Why do they have to participate in the core gameplay loop?

[graceful fractal]

what do you think keeps most of us playing?

most maps don't exactly age well on the 100th repeat

where are we pushing ourselves as players?

[wheat pecan]

Killing archers mostly

Yeah stabbing each other, while getting shot at by archers

So when your archer helps you not get shot at by archers that's a nice thing

And then they can shoot the dude you're fighting in the head, also very nice

Unless they get shot

And then when someone is flanking to kill your archers you have someone to stab

[graceful fractal]

I've never had any better experience with the game than when we've been playing 18v18 with only good players in the lobby and it's pretty close and there were no archers to spoil the combat. Your attempts to frame archer just make it increasingly obvious that archer is in the way.

[wheat pecan]

Ok well I've never had a better experience that beating someone to death with a crossbow so anecdote meet anecdote

[graceful fractal]

not a single thing you say has archer as anything but an obstacle to being able to push the complexity of the melee combat further

[wheat pecan]

What's wrong with that?

Obstacles and challenges break up the gameplay

Like that's why we're not in duel servers 24/7

[graceful fractal]

what I said is self-evidently something wrong with archer. The complexity of the melee combat is the core gameplay loop, and I've never once run out of enough obstacles to eventually bog me down and kill me in a 1vX unless I'm not picking hard enough 1vXs

there's never a lack of engagement unless I choose not to be engaged

there's just so many skills to push within the core gameplay loop alone that this is a 10k+ hour genre if you just keep going

[wheat pecan]

Ok well I like my core gameplay loop with some arrows getting hurled at me

[graceful fractal]

and that's why we should have a choice

[wheat pecan]

Except it would be playerbase dividing

Should we have a list without knights too?

I think they're too tanky

[tender kindle]

different people are going to have different opinions on what the "core gameplay loop" is. archers definitely keep things chaotic, without them it'd be more one-dimensional. a problem I think is people have a hard time looking at things from beyond their perspective

instead of answering straight questions like why is this frustrating you, it often just devolves into skill issue threads which aren't really helpful

[wheat pecan]

Bro are you a chat gpt bot

Cus it feels like it sometimes

[graceful fractal]

knights have actual downsides such as getting two shot by war club and not having anything which gets them out of melee. Officer is clearly overtuned though. Greatsword Knight is an unparalleled kit for general TO gameplay even if Greatsword Devastator has the highest peak output of anything in the game.

[tender kindle]

full disclosure I've heard this term but I don't really know what it means lol

[wheat pecan]

Google is your friend

[tender kindle]

if it helps you then yeah, sure

[graceful fractal]

I've actually made a thread about officer being a problem because it has every single tool on top of being knight and it simply got clowned on

[wheat pecan]

Yeah like archers downside of getting one hit killed by greatsword

[graceful fractal]

sounds like the archer played poorly

[wheat pecan]

You mean properly

[graceful fractal]

you should be surviving at least long enough to get a horn overheal

[drowsy stream]

Tbh rather than no archers, there should be some counterplay against them, such as being able to block sightlines with something, or maybe deflect arrows.
Right now, the counterplay is just neurotically strafing even when there's no archers around.

[wheat pecan]

You can tho

[graceful fractal]

horn overheal makes archers often effectively improbable to kill

[drowsy stream]

I meant with a 2 handed weapon

[wheat pecan]

Counters deflect arrows for half a second

[tender kindle]

well good luck doing it consistently but yeah you can deflect arrows, and yes with a 2 handed weapon

[graceful fractal]

this game's projectile speeds really are just too fast for it to be consistent when you can hold arrows for an arbitrary amount of time

crossbow having no tells makes it even worse

[drowsy stream]

I meant something more like a parry, you raise your guard up, and if you raise it just before the arrow hits you, it gets deflected. cuz counters aren't a consistent way to prevent getting shot, it sorta just happens.

[graceful fractal]

it's something we've done with throwables as well, simply look at someone and cancel throwable windup and then look away and do that a few times to force someone to be a sitting duck with no sprint

archers get to do that but worse

[wheat pecan]

At least holding block reduces damage by 33%

[graceful fractal]

hold arrow, look at someone, look away, they attempt to counter, shoot after counter feint

free damage

[wheat pecan]

I usually just throw something at them

2h spear does a cool 70 damage and 30 something from the short sword. Ez Archer kill

Then you get to punch people after

[graceful fractal]

throwing, sprint charging, using leaping strikes guarantees unmitigable damage which often is deadly by the time you've reached the archer after fighting through their team

they're long and unprotected animations

unless you're using dane axe in which case the throw borders on instant

[drowsy stream]

Tbh I feel like the archer class faces the same problem sniper from tf2 does, being killed by them feels unfair, and not earned... it's a thing with the class at it's core.

[wheat pecan]

It's almost like archers are an important asset and their function improves the flow of gameplay

[drowsy stream]

long range class in a game where everyone punches eachother

[wheat pecan]

I think this is just a matter of expectation.

The same thing happened in battlefield where people whine about getting killed by jets and helicopters and bombs

[graceful fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOebGm_jMLY there's a good video on how snipers are a huge design problem

[wheat pecan]

Like this is a chaotic game. You will often be killed by random shit. It largely requires you get over it.

[graceful fractal]

hey and you know why I chose not to play Battlefield games because I like to focus on core deathmatching capability and objective focus?

there is no alternative to chivalry 2 in this genre though

and chivalry 2 has a single server-side variable which would have to be changed to offer such an environment within itself

[tender kindle]

if only every infantry unit could just equip a heat seeking archer rocket to deal with long range units like in battlefield

[wheat pecan]

Oh but they can

It's called Dane axe

You even get two of them, plus a knife

And to be fair you can stay completely out of range in bf

[drowsy stream]

that's not the problem though, the main issue with archer is that you can just get killed out of nowhere with no way to fight back, and very high chance you won't know where it even came from.

There should be more ways to locate the archer, and make it more obvious you are being shot, and from what direction.

[wheat pecan]

Well if you're being a cautious player then it's not possible to be one hit killed by an archer, there's almost always some recourse to escape

[tender kindle]

I'm not gonna argue against the overwhelming benefits of using dane axe vs literally any other weapon in the game lol but yeah comparisons between this game and a FPS is probably not the move to achieve archer balance

[wheat pecan]

And if you're already injured that sounds like a failure in melee combat

[drowsy stream]

Getting injured in melee combat ? skill issue.

[wheat pecan]

You just as easily could have earned that second maul hit

Frankly it's just an issue with expectation. You're tuned to expect some flavor of warning to your death in this game

[graceful fractal]

you'd be surprised how many times being at low hp makes you focus up in melee combat and gets your blood pumping and then you're fighting an insane save in a 1v3 or worse odds and you feel like a god for a moment before you get the mood police coming

[drowsy stream]

Tbh this reminds me about how battlefield somewhat dealt with snipers being really hard to find... whenever snipers looked at you, you could see their lens glare

this could be a way to deal with archers, simply tell the player when they are being aimed at.

[tender kindle]

easy fix then, give all archers scopes

[graceful fractal]

that's the thing, there's already enough things in this game which simply exist to act as the mood police. TDM, archers, dane axes having a potential to do over 150 damage to knights with headshot bonus if an ambusher or archer picks them up, netcode fucking up your parry, someone getting flinched by their teammate so their attack goes off course and you dying because that makes you fail to get active parry, etc.

[wheat pecan]

I mean I've put 20+ days into this game mostly on FFA servers so I'm used to clutching 1vX situations on a sliver of health, it's great and all but at the end of the day you're capitalizing on a skill difference

[tender kindle]

a little glint would be nice but it wouldn't make much sense in the context of this game lol

[drowsy stream]

Nah, anything from wind rustling, to like, the spot where the archer is getting slightly distorted/darkened to show that he is there, stuff like that.

[wheat pecan]

Or you can just follow the arrow tracer

[graceful fractal]

archer is just the most prominent mood police other than tdm right now

[drowsy stream]

You know, there's a myth that animals can feel when they are being watched, something like that, you can make stuff up

[tender kindle]

the whizz of an arrow flying by your head is a pretty big indicator.

[wheat pecan]

Getting shot is an even bigger one

[drowsy stream]

dude... the point of the glare is to know when you are about to get shot, not when you are already dead

[wheat pecan]

Good thing you can get hit three times

[drowsy stream]

Tbh I feel like map design in this game also has some problems regarding sight lines, many maps, it's super hard to ever not be in sight of an archer, in games like tf2, there's lots of walls and obstacles, in this game, very rare.

[graceful fractal]

every map is the upward playground sightline

or the cascade rc2a batts sightline

[tender kindle]

actually I think the whizz helps me better determine where they are vs being shot. or maybe just not being hit gives the confidence to look around and find them. when I get hit I'm looking for cover

[drowsy stream]

I forgot what map this was, but a section of the map is a straight line, and it has 2 passages to the side.... in the middle you have nowhere to hide, if an archer targets you, he can take as many shots as he wants. It's not great.

[graceful fractal]

that describes a few maps, and those maps basically all forced an exit of some sort into the central sightline anyway. Was it 5cp or payload?

upward second had problems with this, the hill for defense letting someone spot all the way to offense spawn and forcing convergence as well as forcing convergence in front of the cave a second time while the sniper sits on the back left on tracks

[drowsy stream]

It was burning stuff with torches

[graceful fractal]

oh you mean bridgetown's streets

[wheat pecan]

Dark forest?

[graceful fractal]

or darkforest yeah

[tender kindle]

could be the 3rd obj on Askandir after you take the bridge, it is just a straight funnel forward with 2 paths on the side

[graceful fractal]

torches could be askandir last, the stick barricade on darkforest, some misremembering of bridgetown, or coxwell first
stick barricades were three-lane into a center lane

and there's an archer hut on the opposite side of the river

that's actually one of the rare points with a real flank because you can jump across the river on the right side

that's out of the sightline as well

[neat cobalt]

Not a "Core Feature" they were in the first game lol.

They are even toned down compared to them because of the feigned outrage

[graceful fractal]

that flank is also often used to get the back piles while the other team has a decent grasp on the front

[wheat pecan]

Honestly I think that flanking is underrated. Even on maps with some pretty intense channeling you can use timing and stealth to make moves

The only objectives that really halt flanking are bridges

[tender kindle]

I don't think anyone was saying flanking is overrated

[wheat pecan]

I think they were saying it isn't viable

[graceful fractal]

I've always played flank in every game I've played and chivalry 2 is the most unfriendly to flanks, especially when I simply do more for my team by being in front and making space for my worse players to fill

[neat cobalt]

I see it try to get talked down every time it is brought up as a counter to Archers. Literally every single time.

[graceful fractal]

in 40p flanks are significantly better due to the differing spawn wave sizes and frequency

[neat cobalt]

That and the maps are way too big for 20v20

[graceful fractal]

in 64p there's borderline-constant alternating spawns with third person making it nearly impossible to escape field of view consistently

2 arrow sprint is almost too fast for the melee combat, but it's also too slow to avoid third person target identification when flanking much of the time unless your goal is to distract several players instead of actually performing a directly effective flank

in that case it's not that flanking is ineffective, but that it's not traditionally effective

as the distraction is significant for your team

especially if you survive 20-30 seconds and waste, for example, an aggregate 80-120 seconds of enemy team attention for your 4v1

if you kill a player the value keeps going up

flanking is one of the easiest ways to get overall ahead in the in-game attention economy

[neat cobalt]

a 4v1 taking 120 seconds is a perfect talking point of the existence of Archers.

[drowsy stream]

I would prefer to instead just buff something like catapults and ballistas tbh (Place more of them)

Cuz with ballistas, you always know where they are (Even if you will get sent to narnia if you get shot at all by them)

[neat cobalt]

How do you counter a Cat or Ballista in a way that doesn't apply to ARchers?

[graceful fractal]

their sightlines aren't dynamic

[drowsy stream]

Well, a ballista can't follow you around like a creepy stalker

For now

[neat cobalt]

So awareness?

Like the #1 counter to Archers is Awareness and following their Arrow trails?

[graceful fractal]

one of the design issues with catapults and ballistas is that they're placed in places where it doesn't matter that they don't have flexible sightlines because they get total vision of an objective

and cavali it's not really worth engaging with keeper because he's going to sealion everything you say

[tender kindle]

the only places I would want any additional siege weapons would just be to counter particularly problematic ones like attackers on the 2nd to last stage of dark forest. otherwise no ty lol

[graceful fractal]

the darkforest gate was the single location with the best siege weapon design until they fucked up the health on them this patch

[wheat pecan]

Tbh even archer isn't a great counter cus the God damn ballista blocks it's user pretty well

[neat cobalt]

Classic "I can't counter your points, so let me try to dismiss you"

[neat cobalt]

Ballista Hitboxes are the worst

[tender kindle]

I'm just not a fan of how much work you have to put in to destroy them and they get repaired in like 2 seconds

[drowsy stream]

I kinda want more diverse siege weapons, like for example a fire catapult of sorts, maybe a gas one. Stuff that's not just insta death, but it can deny area.

[neat cobalt]

What about something that shoots fire arrows?

[tender kindle]

oh well ya more unique and interesting mechanics and things for people to interact with, I'm all for

[drowsy stream]

that's just a regular archer but more annoying? It's not more fun.

[neat cobalt]

So larger fire pots are less annoying?

[drowsy stream]

Nah, fire pots aren't that bad, they deal team damage very often, so they make for more interesting battles

[wheat pecan]

No but they give medkit a decent use

[drowsy stream]

Like, it can work against you too.

[wheat pecan]

So do fire arrows

[neat cobalt]

They are avoiding seeing that and it is neat

[graceful fractal]

you can jump out of fire pots consistently on reaction but for the game locking out jump so much for borderline no reason, partially due to the fact that they have dodge and jump dual-bound and you can't split bind them

[tender kindle]

fire arrows however never damage teammates

[drowsy stream]

Only bad aim though, they don't endanger your own team at all

[neat cobalt]

Let me introduce you into Team Hitboxes that are larger than enemy .

[wheat pecan]

People move a lot in this game

[graceful fractal]

if you react to the particles showing up below you you can jump out before the first tick of fire damage

[neat cobalt]

Cap

[tender kindle]

I am personally guilty of so many badly aimed firepots

[wheat pecan]

If you react to the archers you can dodge them to t

You can see the arrow for a couple frames

[graceful fractal]

I've done it, including for teammate fire pots thrown from behind me

[neat cobalt]

If you can dodge a a fire pot you can dodge an arrow?

[graceful fractal]

there's something like a third of a second window

which is longer than human reaction time

[wheat pecan]

I've also hail mary'd my spear cross map and hit an archer in the face

Does that anecdote make archers balanced in your book?

[tender kindle]

Actually curious, do archers think the "couple frames" you have to react to an arrow counter is like, reasonable and accessible to everyone?

[wheat pecan]

No lol

[tender kindle]

my reaction time is okay at best but I hear a lot of archers saying to just counter the arrows like it's nbd

[drowsy stream]

Failed semantics, dodging a slow pot that barely deals any damage even if you sit on it, vs a camping archer that you can't even see, and you can't predict, so you can't dodge.

[wheat pecan]

That's kind of a meme tbh

[neat cobalt]

They normally mean by the hard counter classes

Shields / Warbows

[graceful fractal]

no, because the reaction window isn't long enough. If you talk to most of the comp players oil pots are essentially only a problem when massed because they're actually able to be reacted to and we'd just like dodge and jump to be available as split binds so we can do that consistently

[tender kindle]

so not literally counter but class counter

[graceful fractal]

massed oil pots are game breaking though

[neat cobalt]

Literally a counter

[graceful fractal]

you can in fact with 10 devastators coat an entire objective zone

[neat cobalt]

I hope the other team is having fun with that

[tender kindle]

I meant literally countering the arrows with a counter attack.

[neat cobalt]

Holding block is a counter

Negates 100% of Arrow damage

[drowsy stream]

it doesn't

only with shield, but with a weapon, only 30%

[neat cobalt]

Do you take damage or Stam drain from arrows?

[tender kindle]

in these hypotheticals every single melee player on the field has a shield

[drowsy stream]

being shot hurts man

[neat cobalt]

How does an Archer avoid getting 1 shot by Archers and Flankers?

[drowsy stream]

an archer is in the backline

[wheat pecan]

Not if they're any good

[neat cobalt]

Not an answer

[wheat pecan]

Back line archers are highly ineffective

[drowsy stream]

that's how they avoid it, they are by default at much less danger, also they have secondaries, they stab the enemy.

[neat cobalt]

Nah highest KD in the game as Mid to back here

[neat cobalt]

So they have to be aware right?

[graceful fractal]

one interesting interaction which only exists because of fire pots is intentionally fire-potting a defense objective as offense such as the stones on aberfell and then getting suicide pushes in because players overly fear walking into fire pots. It has won me a significant number of games to do that.

[drowsy stream]

barely.

[wheat pecan]

Mid to back is different than backline tbh

[tender kindle]

overheal

[wheat pecan]

Like I'm talking people who shit on the ramparts while the convoy is still across the map

[neat cobalt]

True and depends on the map honestly.

[wheat pecan]

So you're dependent on being close to teammates

[neat cobalt]

So hope you get a horn? That is a counter to 1 shots?

Pretty weird how that is your counter

[wheat pecan]

And it's not like you can instantly retaliate

[tender kindle]

where did I say that? I simply answered your question

[neat cobalt]

Horn doesn't prevent headshot deaths, So it doesn't work.

[wheat pecan]

Like if I sprint charge an archer in the back and they don't die I just bonk them with an overhead and it's faster than they can pull out another weapon and block

Well it does against longbow and crossbow

[drowsy stream]

Archers don't really even need to deal with 1 shots, they can 1 shot other archers, and the enemy will have a much harder time getting to them than other way around

[tender kindle]

does a longbow headshot 1 shot an overhealed archer?

[wheat pecan]

Yeah but the enemy has a much larger advantage in those situations

[drowsy stream]

most weapons won't actually 1 shot them lol, only a few, even with their low hp

[neat cobalt]

LMAO what?

[wheat pecan]

Well I don't use most weapons

[neat cobalt]

I can't tell you, I don't play or die to default bows.

[wheat pecan]

I use 2H spear and it does 93 damage off the sprint charge

(it doesn't)

[tender kindle]

oh ok no problem maybe you should edit your original statement then

[wheat pecan]

Bad AI

[neat cobalt]

As soon as the people like Sunder and others correct their claims I will hop on that.

[wheat pecan]

But their claims are just opinions so they can't be wrong

[tender kindle]

unlike yours which are definitely not opinions? come on guys we're almost having a discussion.

[wheat pecan]

Bad robot

[neat cobalt]

I said when I would correct it, You haven't said this one time when they have been corrected. IF you want to play mediator be a mediator.

[wheat pecan]

I'm not even stating opinions for the most part

[drowsy stream]

Tbh, to resume this whole thing, archers might be "Balanced" or whatever, but they are a flawed class, they are heavily disliked, so they should be remade, or at the very least the core issue be resolved, there's no argument against the fact that they are generally hated.

[neat cobalt]

The majority of what I have stated is verifiable facts in the game. But it gets dismissed because people don't like having honest discussions.

[drowsy stream]

either the maps are remade with sightlines in mind, to prevent archers cheese, or they change the way archers interact so that it feels less unfair.

[neat cobalt]

Bridge map is the worst for that once you get to the City part

ON offense or Defense

[drowsy stream]

Yeah... just, it hurts.

[wispy dune]

for archers you just shoot them first (war bow is ur friend)
and for flankers u like

[drowsy stream]

flankers, they pray.

[wispy dune]

okay so u can’t bank on ur team not dying

[neat cobalt]

I need to try out the Warbow

[wispy dune]

so u position yourself where u can fall back to a friendly spawn wave if things start looking bad

a l s o leave when the vibes get bad, not when they get too close to comfortably shoot

kinda like playing medic tbh

[neat cobalt]

How are you dealing with Flankers and other archers? Just by being aware and watching Arrow trails?

[tender kindle]

you were talking to me directly so I was just pointing out an inconsistency 🤷 correct it or don't

[neat cobalt]

My point still stands

[wispy dune]

flankers get me sometimes but they earn it with their positioning, and i count on shooting the archers before they shoot me

[graceful fractal]

yeah having the medic "oh no" radar helps a lot in general in this game, but it's most potent when you weren't in the melee to begin with

[wispy dune]

y e p

this guy gets it

[graceful fractal]

I remember playing tf2centers with lolguy and he was a menace even back then lmao

I don't think he'd really be killable if he chose to learn archer in this game

[wispy dune]

learning when you’re going to be in a bad spot before you get there, and pulling back to another friendly spawn

archer also sucks ### without a mouse

[wheat pecan]

But auto aim is so broken they say

[wispy dune]

nah

[wheat pecan]

You hear that guys?

[neat cobalt]

So what do you do to all the one shot mechanics that kill Archers? What is your counter play to that? A big argument from the guy you are talking to is that it takes his fun away to die to Archers. Is it fun to die to 1 shot Melee attacks?

[wispy dune]

travel time forces you to lead every shot

[wispy dune]

i think we fuckin deserve to die to those

[neat cobalt]

But what is the counter play to such an unfun mechanic?

[wispy dune]

i don’t think a flanker who commits to entering my backline to get me should have to swing twice

they’re basically sacrificing themselves

[wheat pecan]

Crazy

[tender kindle]

holy shit did we just have a breakthrough

[wispy dune]

positioning and shooting them from a distance

[neat cobalt]

So you are saying playing at your range you should have an advantage?

[graceful fractal]

if you're positioned properly the flanker only really gets one swing

[wheat pecan]

No we've been saying this the entire time lmao

[wispy dune]

being aware prevents them from one tapping you as well

you can dodge and then fight back

[neat cobalt]

Weird so being aware helps?

[wheat pecan]

At a severe disadvantage albeit

[neat cobalt]

It's like seeing everything I said roll out here

[wispy dune]

wild but yeah

[neat cobalt]

This has to hurt

[wispy dune]

i haven’t paid attention and i just got here, why would it hurt me?

[wheat pecan]

And when you're fighting for your life against a 2H wielding vanguard you can't really hurl arrows at the event team

[tender kindle]

is:
melee player in a 1x5, getting shot, awareness issue

vs.

archer in the backline, only focusing on shooting, desertion zone and spawns behind them, gets flanked and killed, awareness issue

the same thing?

[neat cobalt]

I am not saying I would hurt you, You repeated what I have been saying here and told I was wrong.

[wispy dune]

ah i hear u <3

[wheat pecan]

It's not about you, you're just being a great example for others in this chat

[wispy dune]

i’m a pretty good archer player i think

[neat cobalt]

Let me introduce a biased example lmao

[wispy dune]

not the best, but i do pretty well

[wheat pecan]

Yes.

[graceful fractal]

the classes themselves ensure biased situations

[wheat pecan]

Except that the stakes are different

[neat cobalt]

I am sure you are great and you sound like you are a rational person.

[wheat pecan]

An archer is harder to spot but has less impact

[wispy dune]

archers pick their fights in a way that no one else does

[neat cobalt]

Please stop sea lioning me

[graceful fractal]

keeping track of an entire enemy frontline vs keeping track of just players who are running at you and a target is very different

[tender kindle]

okay then break it down and make it neutral and not biased according to your own criteria

[wheat pecan]

An enemy flanking an archer is easier to spot but has greater impact

[wispy dune]

and they more than deserve to be weaker in melee

[tender kindle]

bc with no other factors in just a 1v1 I got no issues with that

[neat cobalt]

A 1vX implies you are by yourself so either over extending or without a team.

[wispy dune]

frontline is basic gamer sense, you need that to avoid getting rolled period

[graceful fractal]

if you're directly fighting center busting in the frontline you're keeping track of initiative on 3-5 players most of the time

[wispy dune]

watching the game and avoiding bad fights preemptively is easier for archers than it is for melee classes

[graceful fractal]

since someone has to break through or make an advantage for their team

[neat cobalt]

Yup that is a great example of showing you understand a class strength

[wispy dune]

i’m not following you, but what i’m saying is that archers have ab easier time watching the flow of the game

and they’re punished more heavily for fecking up
as fair and balanced as archers will get

[fresh crest]

That's why Archer have less health and stamina though, they pick their fights because NOT doing so means they'll be outlasted by most melees at close range

[wispy dune]

^

[neat cobalt]

It's nice to see rational people show up

[wispy dune]

bro i haven’t been here but have you just been arguing about the class with bad archers?

[neat cobalt]

They don't even play Archer

[wheat pecan]

No we've been arguing with melee chads who hate getting shot

[wispy dune]

what

ah gotcha LOL

[wheat pecan]

They think that archer should pretty much not be in the game

And this should be a fencing simulator

[wispy dune]

okay so like

[neat cobalt]

Don't forget despite it being in the 1st one !

[graceful fractal]

the whole point of this thread is that we want an option to play a no-archer mode

even temporarily

[neat cobalt]

That was until you started spreading a ton of misinformation

[wispy dune]

archers break up fights but i also see how they’re unfun to play against

[neat cobalt]

You will see we all agreed it should be a Limited time event or on the Server Browser

[wispy dune]

i go out of my way to shoot the greatsword pub stomper

[graceful fractal]

good archers have an effect bordering on highlander sniper

[wispy dune]

highlander sniper?

[wheat pecan]

Counter point there's 3 archer free modes in the game already

[austere oriole]

You have literal misinformation in your username lol. Proud hypocrite.

[wispy dune]

a setting for customs would be fine

[graceful fractal]

maybe not a Lenny or a bo4r or an andrew, but at least snipers in main div

[neat cobalt]

I have pointed out countless times it is a joke bud. Sorry you are still upset by it.

[wheat pecan]

And adding another que will divide an already sparse playerbase further

[wispy dune]

ah idk what game ur talking about

[graceful fractal]

tf2

[wispy dune]

WHAT

sorry i just woke up and i don’t play sniper

[wheat pecan]

😂

[wispy dune]

huntsman is easier to use than chiv archer tho

[austere oriole]

Stating a fact is being upset. More misinformation from you?

[wispy dune]

chiv projectiles are very slow and take some getting used ti

[wispy dune]

my brother in christ it’s a joke

[wheat pecan]

He's large angry

[wispy dune]

everyone knows it’s a joke, so it’s not a lie

[graceful fractal]

they're slow at longer ranges, un-reactably fast at ranges close but outside of the melee

[neat cobalt]

I hope you have a great day and get the attention you are seeking from me offline.

[austere oriole]

US west has like 3-4 full servers constantly. No one is making this argument for Volley, Mounted combat, or FFA limited time queues

[wheat pecan]

Is satire lying?

[wispy dune]

right??

[graceful fractal]

and both war bow and crossbow have significantly faster projectile speeds than longbow

which increases their borderline-hitscan range

[wispy dune]

if you tell a joke with fictional characters are you a liar?

[austere oriole]

The whole idea that you can't play archer in one limited game mode has these archer mains throwing a fit. I love it.

[neat cobalt]

LOL this vastly depends on the draw strength and in no way is a hit scan. It would be a projectile since it has drop lmao.

[wispy dune]

nah miss me with that hitscan ####
literally the hardest projectile i learned excluding very fast paced games

[fresh crest]

I don't disapprove of no archer mode anyway as fair enough people wanna slash my issue is I keep seeing people act like Archer is op broken yet if I so much as breathe wrong i get folded like a damn sheet unless I'm some sorta counter god.

[neat cobalt]

So we can add hitscan to another failed talking point

[wispy dune]

bows are overturned, but they’re very difficult to lead

[wispy dune]

positioning comrade

[austere oriole]

It's honestly just the Heckler's Veto at this point. They come spew their same tired talking points about why archer's arnt annoying and non-interactive to play against.

[wheat pecan]

Position Deez nuts

[wispy dune]

and you need to be feral when you get caught

[wheat pecan]

Actually I'm a 2H spear Chad

[fresh crest]

Yeah I am the issue is I can get outlasted unelss my mix-ups work

[wispy dune]

turn the gremlin energy up to 11

[wheat pecan]

Surprisingly one of the classes that's supposed to be hard countered by archers

[austere oriole]

Spear and Chad are oxymorons lol

[neat cobalt]

IF you read instead of trolling for attention you would see we all agreed their should be a Limited Time and Server Browser option.

The thing is some of these Melee mains can't read.

[graceful fractal]

"borderline-hitscan" was just being used as a way to describe "completely unreactable for the receiving player even wit hfocus"

[wispy dune]

that’s just archery with extra steps

[wheat pecan]

Sometimes it do be like that

[wispy dune]

unreactable is much better 🤙

[austere oriole]

The biggest troll on this discord, gaslighting people into thinkin they are the ones trollin lol 😂

[neat cobalt]

You may want to learn the difference between Hitscan and Projectile if you are going to use it.

[austere oriole]

How many times you been in the timeout corner?

[wheat pecan]

You don't even know what gas lighting is. You're crazy

[graceful fractal]

damn I didn't think I'd agree with elbow bump lux

[neat cobalt]

You are just insulting me and trying to troll, act like an adult please.

[wispy dune]

all i’ve seen from him has been in this channel today, but it’s all been good faith takes

[tender kindle]

Try to keep it on-topic folks, this aint it.

[wheat pecan]

This is my grandma's dog

[neat cobalt]

These personal attacks would get me timed out champ

[wheat pecan]

This is my cat pooping

[wispy dune]

cat

thanks

[austere oriole]

This isnt a topic about the validity or comparisons of archers, yet the same usual suspects are bombarding this simple game-mode request topic as if it is one.

Honestly alls this thread needs is a title for this game mode. It's simple value changes to make it a reality.

[neat cobalt]

You would understand why if you asked instead of hurling personal insults.

[wispy dune]

it sounds like you agree with keeper?

[austere oriole]

Gaslight more ♥️

[neat cobalt]

What have I gaslighted. Quote it or stop the insults.

[austere oriole]

Quote my "Insult" first

[wispy dune]

this is a bad faith reply

[neat cobalt]

#1100861750863204373 message

[wispy dune]

why are y’all engaging with each other?

[neat cobalt]

#1100861750863204373 message

[wheat pecan]

Just shut up and kiss

[neat cobalt]

#1100861750863204373 message

[austere oriole]

Dont see any insults. Try again.

[wispy dune]

those were borderline

l some of those comments were direct attacks on him

[wheat pecan]

Bad faith argument part 2 electric boogaloo

[neat cobalt]

I can only lead a horse to water.

[austere oriole]

He just likes to try and get under people's skin. Its his whole MO.

[neat cobalt]

All you have done is exactly that

[wispy dune]

what you’re kind of saying is “i won’t refute this unless you refute this new thing i brought up”
and then you never move past your new topic

it’s really disingenuous

[austere oriole]

I just want the game mode.

[wispy dune]

dude, respond to his point

[wheat pecan]

Well I think the game mode would hurt the player experience

[wispy dune]

all you’ve done is make yourself look nasty

[austere oriole]

Why? Nothing productive ever comes from talking with Keeper.

[wispy dune]

like i don’t know either of you and i’m completely neutral

[wispy dune]

because he accused you of gaslighting him and then you did smth manipulative to avoid talking about it

you’re acting like my mother

[wheat pecan]

Play nice while Mommy smokes a cigarette you little shit

[wispy dune]

gonna reiterate that i don’t know anyone here and this is the first conversation i’ve followed

[wheat pecan]

You watched "Beau is Afraid" yet?

[neat cobalt]

I have never even heard of this

[wispy dune]

i haven’t

[river pilot]

A24 film I think

[wheat pecan]

Dude who wrote midsomer and hereditary made it

[wispy dune]

i thought it’d be a critical role thing lol

[wheat pecan]

Very psychological horror

[neat cobalt]

Ya reading now

[wheat pecan]

Big ol metaphor for mommy trauma

[wispy dune]

oh nope nope i can’t watch that

[wheat pecan]

Good watch for those with narcissistic mothers

[wispy dune]

i’ll consider it

[wheat pecan]

My girlfriend was going to bring her horrible mother with and she was like holy shit good thing we didn't

[wispy dune]

but that sounds like a panic attack 😅

[neat cobalt]

LOL

[wispy dune]

oh damn like to live with y’all?

[wheat pecan]

No to watch the movie

[wispy dune]

OH GOTCHA LOL

[river pilot]

Move as far away from the mother as you can

[wispy dune]

that would’ve been a nightmare for ur gf

like any reactions she had would be judged

[neat cobalt]

"Am I like that" lol oh man what a horrible situation that would have been.

[wispy dune]

trauma tends to be generational.. might’ve brought up stuff with her own mother

[wheat pecan]

Yeah the grandma was apparently pretty nasty

Good ol generational trauma

[wispy dune]

and if she felt that she was better than her own mother, she’d have an easier tine compartmentalizing her bad parenting

yeah fr

i’m not having kids

[wheat pecan]

Probably was these knight mains hate archers

[neat cobalt]

I wonder if any kid playing Chiv 2 had a dad that played Chiv 1 and hated Archers there also.

[graceful fractal]

you probably missed the part where keeper tried to get me banned then for my choice of game configuration and his thread in #1024356587508338748 is 4 days without a reply now because I'd already run the problematic parts past chivmail after I posted an archer 100 takedown 40ish kill game with longbow as a reason to offer a no-archer environment

[neat cobalt]

I didn't try to get you banned lmao. I asked for guidance before I did. Talk about misrepresenting that.

I still have a support ticket on it also.

[wispy dune]

i have no idea about any of this

[graceful fractal]

that's because we're several hundred messages past that because we've been going in useless circles for that long

[wispy dune]

tea on your settings?

[graceful fractal]

just a sec need to go pull up the vid so I can post it again

[river pilot]

Don’t you hate when the person provides the evidence right in the game feedback

[graceful fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBUbQShErI0

here we go

did some tf2-level config stuff to it

[austere oriole]

Honestly the best play is to just ignore arguments and say your piece. These same old arguments are so boring and pointless.

This would be a great game-mode to at least try out. It would take virtually zero dev time to implement, as youre simply disabling options, and from the users votes on this thread its clearly a majority ask from the player base. Archer's are one of the most frustrating aspects of TO for numerous reason, a sentiment that has clearly been shared by the majority of the player base since release.

A few reasons for this being they have very limited interactivity between the two players, the fact that archers tend to attract players that only seek to make the experience worse for others, and that there are zero counterplay for archers who stay in their own spawn and have become familiar with spawn waves.

Limited-time events like Volley, Brawl, Mounted combat ect are clearly part of the game design and are arguably very successful. Suddenly claiming they would split the player base is obnoxious. Chivalry 2 has the numbers to focus on more than one game mode , unlike lots of other games.

Please make this game mode 🙏 Lots of players are simply curious what the game would feel like without archers, for better or worse.

[wispy dune]

i don’t fuck with config, it feels wrong

[wheat pecan]

Bro what are your game settings

[graceful fractal]

I don't blame you, but I just wanted visual clarity and to have the most rock solid 1440p ultrawide 160+ FPS anyone has ever had in the game, so I took my tradeoffs of the game looking like shite lol

[neat cobalt]

What I said and apparently that is trying to get him banned. Because I made a thread asking if I could get rid of fire.

[river pilot]

Sunder can’t keep getting away with this

[graceful fractal]

I also wanted to never get flashbanged by interactables ever again and outlines could only be turned off alongside the fire overlay

which was what I ran past chivmail

[neat cobalt]

Dude out here straight making up lies about me. Wild

[wheat pecan]

He's too busy playing chivalry 98

[wispy dune]

i would mention that you don’t need to stay in your spawn, you just need to be aware of where your team is and where you could be flanked from as long as you know where fresh friendlies will be coming from

[neat cobalt]

I think Chiv in Roblox probably looks better than that Runescape mode

[wheat pecan]

And if you do stay in your spawn you're pretty useless

[wispy dune]

^

[wheat pecan]

Like oh boy you headshot a dude from across the map once every 5 minutes

[graceful fractal]

idk what does this read like

[wispy dune]

and you’ll miss every other shot

[neat cobalt]

Weird how at no point did I say you should get banned or advocate for it? Huh?

[wheat pecan]

Literally

[wispy dune]

travel time is such that you need people to hold still (crossbow users my beloved 🥰) to hit them from a distance

[river pilot]

You did report it did you not?

[wheat pecan]

Should he have not?

[river pilot]

You announced it in general

[wispy dune]

so u get close and u still need to predict weird combat movement to avoid hitting friendlies

[wheat pecan]

Like it's genuinely something that looks suspect as hell

[neat cobalt]

I made a ticket asking if I could edit out fire and used his as an example. I never asked for him to get banned or made a ticket for that purpose. I have been 100% clear on this despite the blatant lies by Sunder here.

[wheat pecan]

If you did that in any other fps you'd get banned

[river pilot]

He can but really if Sunder is posting it in game feedback it’d be up to TB

[wispy dune]

changing settings in the config feels illegal

[wheat pecan]

If he reports it it's still up to TB

It's only communication

[wispy dune]

it’s allowed in tf2

[neat cobalt]

What my ticket said and why I asked for clarification before I did it.

[wheat pecan]

Well that doesn't count

[graceful fractal]

I've modified no protected settings. In other FPS games they protect settings they do not want modified.

[wheat pecan]

Tf2 looks like that anyways

[wispy dune]

huh?

[neat cobalt]

You going to admit I didn't try to get you banned or keep spreading that lie?

[river pilot]

Clarifying whether something that was posted in game feedback is a bannable offense is a cheeky way of going about the obvious

[neat cobalt]

Again I asked if I could do that not reporting him for doing it.

[river pilot]

But we all just want to be 💯 before making accusations right?? Right?

[wispy dune]

they’re just saying that’s a cheeky way to report someone without reporting someone

[river pilot]

We have to be absolutely certain

[wispy dune]

the implication is that ur deliberately bringing it to torn’s attention

[neat cobalt]

He has stated he cleared it through Chiv Mail already. They are just trying to start stuff.

He forgot to mention that, I was editing a different thing and for an advantage. That is what my ticket directly states. Removing fire since it causes my 4080 issues still.

[river pilot]

After submitting it to torn

[wheat pecan]

Frankly who gives a shit. Like it's suspect AF, if it's really cool with torn then who cares if someone reports it

[neat cobalt]

I just don't get how you can't be honest.

[wheat pecan]

Like it's way less like 'trying to get someone banned' and more like checking if something is allowed

[river pilot]

If sunder didn’t post the evidence in game feedback himself, it’d be up to TB to say that’s not cool

Like if I rdmed as evidence of votekick not working and posted it in game feedback

[wheat pecan]

Right so when he reports it they can say if it's cool or not

It's not like he didn't say it wasn't cool he just asked

[neat cobalt]

Ya it's not like I hunted him down to post his stuff. The dude is out here sharing his Chiv Runescape before I even addressed it.

[graceful fractal]

it's a "moderation question" and #1024356587508338748 is generally not the appropriate venue for such questions. The only purpose to not asking chivmail and posting it in a public venue is if you think you can shame a specific player and/or torn banner themselves

[wheat pecan]

Well you should be shamed for posting that where my eyes can see it

[neat cobalt]

Chivmail isn't a public Venue and neither is TB Support. I asked on the actual Support site so it got a real non volunteer answer and you posted it yourself already, at no point did I shame you by sharing what you already shared.

[wheat pecan]

Like Jesus Christ bro my n64 had better graphics

[graceful fractal]

excuse me for providing context

[wheat pecan]

I mean he's not wrong

[neat cobalt]

Again no call for Ban? Also @tender kindle is posting screenshots of people's comments on Youtube allowed?

[wheat pecan]

Kind of says a lot about your weird anti archer obsession too

You've boiled this game down to it's base elements

[river pilot]

Sunder can’t keep getting away with this 😭

[wheat pecan]

Here's another picture of my cat

[neat cobalt]

So we are clear, that is 2 Screenshots and 0 calls for you to be banned correct @graceful fractal