Can archers get a better secondary weapon?

[untold escarp]

That sounds like a bug that need to be patched then.

[tiny canopy]

It's not that, it's an oversight.

[split orchid]

this wouldn't be an issue if bows weren't balanced by giving them to a class with extremely bad basic stats

Archers are treated much differently than all other classes.

Following typical game logic, more armor means less movement speed and greater health.

Chivalry 2's Archer does not follow this logic.

[compact tartan]

Actually. I think you’re on to something there

[tiny canopy]

So basically imagine this, you pick the archer class, you spawn as an archer, and then you open the class menu and pick another class. You no longer count as an archer despite still being alive.

[teal shard]

youre right.. so why can footman dodge around a ton. but archers cant.

[untold escarp]

Yeah, in mordhau I can run away as archer. You can’t run in chiv.

[tiny canopy]

This is impractical but not impossible.

[untold escarp]

They catch up no matter the speed

[split orchid]

there is no true light class in chivalry 2

there is just a weak class and a class who never skipped leg day.

[teal shard]

archer skipped cardio day for 50 years straight..

[compact tartan]

I shiver from that

[split orchid]

Compare it to mordhau, where bows are balanced by heavy point cost, lower damage, and vulnerability to other archers. Mordhau enables you to play as an actual light class with low hp and high movement speed.

[tiny canopy]

And honestly, regardless of your opinion on Archery, they are a very hot topic and even if you are of the opinion that "archer is fine", a lot of people don't think it's fine and if it was a small minority, that's one thing. A large population of the game doesn't like Archery as it is and that's ground for something to be done.

[untold escarp]

I want chiv to follow this balance philosophy

[tiny canopy]

50% approval rating is not high approval rating.

[split orchid]

it would enable archer to become a legitimate melee class for people who just want to run fast

[tiny canopy]

I don't think Archer should be nerfed into the ground or made unfun or horribly weak, but simply put, I can't even play Archery without feeling guilty.

[teal shard]

i said it earlier.. archer is a very polarizing class.. theyre either OP. or weak as hell... there isnt really a sweetspot for them.

[tiny canopy]

I've played Archer and it baffles me that people say that it's not strong.

[split orchid]

as it stands, spawning as an archer, throwing your bow to the ground, and using melee isn't a realistic manner to play.

[untold escarp]

Yes, I can run away and fend for myself on equal ground in mordhau. Chiv, I have to be much better than my opposer.

[split orchid]

because for some reason you move slowly while having less armor

[teal shard]

to be fair... i had someone tell me earlier that skirmisher is strong becuase of axe...

[tiny canopy]

Skirmisher isn't a weak class.

[split orchid]

debatable

[teal shard]

uhh... sure..

[tiny canopy]

Axe and mace are insanely good one-handers and javelins can be very potent.

[compact tartan]

it’s the second weakest

[untold escarp]

It is strong but it’s not a power class like melee.

[tiny canopy]

Infact, I usually see the highest scoring archers being skirmishers.

Not saying they're doing the best but, they do a lot

[split orchid]

skirmishers rely on having teammates nearby to be effective. Once the balance is tipped against them, they become obsolete

[tiny canopy]

Did you know? The highest level archer in the game is actually a javelin player?

[untold escarp]

I would think crossbow is better.

[teal shard]

axe and mace are good choices.. but look at the counterplay.. javs can be blocked.. thrown axes dont exist... and you have lower health and stam compared to other melee classes. giving your less margin for error

[tiny canopy]

For more stamina damage than a greatsword overhead*

Javelins are not that weak

They aren't the strongest option but they're not weak.

[split orchid]

I wouldn't be surprised. Experienced players are more likely to be capable in melee, and the longbowman and crossbowman don't exactly encourage melee participation. However, that doesn't prove that skirmisher isn't a weak class.

[teal shard]

i usually stay top 5. as skirmisher. but thats through a lot of target prioritization..

javs are in a good place. but theyre also easily blocked if someone is paying attention after you hit the first one.

[tiny canopy]

Javelin players are very good, especially if they're braver.

The less they preserve their life, the more potent and effective they are.

That might sound strange but it's true.

[split orchid]

the problem with being brave is that almost everyone on the enemy team will ignore your teammates and attack you because of your low HP

and a single heavy overhead or special attack from an angle you don't see is enough to instantly kill you

[teal shard]

its risk/reward... but its HIGH risk.. with medium reward.

[split orchid]

not to mention w a r b o w s

[tiny canopy]

I would say it's not high risk, actually

[split orchid]

90 hp

not high risk

[untold escarp]

Javelin archers have to be several times better than their opponent to be effective.

[tiny canopy]

I would say medium risk with medium/high reward. I've played javelins myself.

I wouldn't say you have to be much better to throw a javelin at someone who isn't looking directly at you.

[split orchid]

and even with this in mind, a single mistake is all it takes sometimes to die.

[tiny canopy]

85 damage is 5 less than a greatsword heavy overhead.

[teal shard]

i main jav/axe skirmisher. and if 2 people try focus me at once.... i can only stall for so long

[tiny canopy]

And that's without headshot damage.

[teal shard]

its also 5 less than your own hitpoints.

lets look at how many javs you have to land against a knight. vs how many times they have to land on hit on you.

[split orchid]

I can sympathize with this. The weapon choices don't help either. Javelins might have enough reach to work in 1vX, but they can't slash. Throwing axes are the opposite.

[tiny canopy]

Are you dueling the knight????

No offense ofc.

[teal shard]

sometimes i am out of choice... most of the time its out of neccisity.

[split orchid]

the amount of hits you have to land to kill a typical melee player as an archer can be anywhere from 4-6 and you'll die in 1-2 hits (3 if you're lucky)

[tiny canopy]

If you're dueling a knight, you'd be better with your secondary weapon out.

Mace and axe are like, really fucking good.

[teal shard]

and at that point. youre better off playing a different class

[tiny canopy]

Mm, no, I don't think that's true.

[split orchid]

yeah it renders the skirmisher obsolete

[teal shard]

oh yeah. the secondaries are great.. but the health and stam arent.

[untold escarp]

Sometimes you just have to??? It’s not like you can just run away when you move so slowly on a “light” class.

[split orchid]

no point in using it for duels unless you use it specifically for the unique weapons (because as mentioned previously, skirmisher has flawed stamina, hp, and speed)

[teal shard]

in a 1v1. the weapon choices can outweigh the hp difference to a point im comfortable taking a 1v1 with a knight... but at that point. im near enough to the frontlines that im surely drawing the attention of other players aswell.

[tiny canopy]

If you're in a 1v1 with a knight as a skirmisher, you're right that you are generally in a disadvantage... But that doesn't mean "I should be playing as a different class" because whether you win or lose that 1v1, you'll be back to being dangerous and projectile-heavy when he's gone.

It doesn't really like, matter, and skirmisher is still like not HORRIBLE in a 1v1.

[teal shard]

projectile heavy?.. bro, i got 5 javs and a dream.

[tiny canopy]

5 javelins that can easily be recovered and are very potent.

[untold escarp]

5 javelins that get blocked

[teal shard]

recovered... right?.. in the moshpit of greatswords and heavy maces.. right.. let me just chootch on in there and swipe those up..

[split orchid]

this is another reason why playing as skirmisher is mainly useful when you have a team advantage. It isn't useful on its own

[teal shard]

unless by recovered you meant, i threw all 5 and ran to the resupply..because i can do that

[split orchid]

you can't recover thrown javelins unless your team is actively pushing back the enemy

or unless you're just really good with movement and spacing

[tiny canopy]

If they're blocking the javelins, you probably aren't throwing them right.

[teal shard]

sometimes you just get unluckly and they get parried.

[tiny canopy]

That's true.

[untold escarp]

As yes, let me throw them “right” through the block.

[tiny canopy]

Well no beeg, more specifically:

Why are you throwing it at someone who can block?

You shouldn't throw if they're like, ready for it

haha

If someones fighting a 1v1 and you have javelin, that guy is a much more prime target than the guy looking at you.

[teal shard]

you should be focusing on people who arent focused on you. i ALWAYS look for someone using a bandage first

then i start looking for people who are 1vX.. after that im looking for people who are focused on something else (footmans healing, etc)

[tiny canopy]

If they ARE looking at you, that's a job for your melee.

And you might ask "why play skirmisher at all"

[teal shard]

if they ARE looking at you... you turn and run

[tiny canopy]

Because you have the ability to back up at any time and throw if the opportunity presents itself

[teal shard]

3 seconds after you see the opportunity... its takes a while to throw.

[tiny canopy]

Skirmisher is a melee class that has high power when the other person can't engage you.

[split orchid]

most opponents won't just back away from you. Even if they do, attempting a throw is so risky that it's often useless

[untold escarp]

What I’m trying to get at is that being choosy like that doesn’t result in doing well, they don’t exceed normal melee or archers. That’s why skirmisher is weak.

[tiny canopy]

They don't have to.

[teal shard]

skirmisher has high POTENTIAL... the damage can be blocked. and it takes multiple javs to take down even other archers.

[tiny canopy]

You force them to engage you and put themselves in an unfavorable position to punish them.

I mean if you wanna buff javelins against other archers, im all for it

[teal shard]

or you run out of javs..

[split orchid]

I'd rather warbow get nerfed

[tiny canopy]

Then youre left with some of the best one-handers in the game

[teal shard]

i do.. 90 damage to archers, let the overhealed ones live (for fairness)

[split orchid]

it makes no sense that it has higher damage than the crossbow

[teal shard]

and youre left in the frontlines trying to get value.. with 90 hp and 70 stam.

[tiny canopy]

70 stam isnt that bad

knights and footman only have 80

[untold escarp]

But that would be archer counters archer??? That doesn’t solve anything.

[split orchid]

it's still nonsensical

[teal shard]

skirmisher has 2 modes..

"i have javs and im murdering these peasants"

"im out of javs and idk what to do with my life"

[tiny canopy]

its less good but, its not "oh no its so much worse"

[untold escarp]

Right?

[tiny canopy]

I struggle to call skirmishers proper archers

plus, skirmisher could be an archer alternative to hunt other archers

[teal shard]

knight has the health to deal with that reduction. footman has increased dodges to stay mobile so youre not having to block/trade stam as much

[tiny canopy]

they get a shield, a projectile that oneshots archers, stronger melee options

that sounds fine to me

[teal shard]

i think if javs were made to deal 90 damage to archers.. they would be a very good anti-archer class

[tiny canopy]

Yeah

[split orchid]

as a skirmisher main, I'd prefer not

[teal shard]

and a simple way to buff thrown axes is to just give you more than 6...give like 8

[untold escarp]

So, you want the archer counter to be javelin throwers?

Then the archer complaints will stop?

[split orchid]

instead of making the skirmisher's main weapons more powerful, I'd rather see their main stats (more specifically, speed and stamina) get increased

in fact, I'd be willing to accept a nerf to all primary archer weapons to see this through

[tiny canopy]

I actually have some other options for archer complaints to stop, even without addressing archers themselves

I wrote up a feedback post on shields, for example, to make them better and healthier

[teal shard]

i would too, but giving the jav 90 damage against other archers... would be GREAT

[untold escarp]

I agree with your shield changes

[tiny canopy]

you could also let people with two-handed weapons put shields in their 3rd slot (think throwing axes, throwing knives, that slot) so they can just have one

[split orchid]

true, but it would disincentivize headshots by making them redundant

[untold escarp]

But the hit boxes on shields need to be adjusted

[teal shard]

are headshots reliable?

[split orchid]

and I don't think anyone likes the possibility of getting 1-shotted regardless of class or weapon

[tiny canopy]

In Chivalry 1, all Knights and Man at Arms could bring shields without sacrificing their weapon selection.

[untold escarp]

A buckler blocking full body from projectiles is wacky

[teal shard]

the entire archer class gets 1 shot by a lot of specials and charge attacks...

[split orchid]

yeah I don't like it either

[tiny canopy]

You could take the Maul or a Battleaxe on Knight and also have a shield on your back if you need it.

[untold escarp]

Archers were way better in chiv 1

[split orchid]

but ranged one-hit kills are just so annoying to me

[tiny canopy]

but youre playing archer

[teal shard]

one of 2 things needs to happen...

either skirmisher gets its "archer status" removed and doesnt get 1 shot by warbow...

or jav does 90 damage to other archers.

[split orchid]

yeah I don't like them

the warbow can currently perform ranged one-hit-kills

[untold escarp]

I think all archer weapons beside the longbow should one shot other archers.

[tiny canopy]

I think Longbow should one-shot other archers too actually

[split orchid]

I disagree

[untold escarp]

It’s rate of fire is too quick.

[teal shard]

as fast as it fires... longbow would be too strong at that point.

[tiny canopy]

and its range is shorter

it has the slowest projectile out of all of them with the most arc

it also is the only bow ive ever seen to actually have a damage falloff

every other bow has never reached damage falloff for me

[untold escarp]

Archer is only effective in close range right behind your teammates.

Long bow would be too powerful.

[tiny canopy]

I don't think it is.

[teal shard]

wait.. wait.. archer is only effective in close range, right behind your teammates... do what?'

[untold escarp]

If you are trying to snipe with bows, you are playing wrong and being a detriment to your team.

[teal shard]

dude.. is snipe with javelins and stay top 5 on my team..

a bow would just make that easier.

[tiny canopy]

(me, being shot by the warbow kd farmer who gets 70 kills in a match without dying because he never is out of position)

[untold escarp]

One shot with crossbow and jav would solve this?? Isn’t that what we were just talking about?

[teal shard]

longbow is the only "bow" that has any reason to be closer to the action.. and thats becuase, as ziggy said, slow projectile and drop

[teal shard]

1 shot with jav would make hitting the enemy archer with one a lot more productive, rather than leaving them on 5 hp and aware of you, so you have to play "dodge the warbow" till you can land another one.

[untold escarp]

That’s what I’m saying.

Longbow ones hitting archer would be too strong because of its fire rate. It’s low speed doesn’t matter because all good archers will be in the front lines right behind teammates. That’s why the crossbow has banner.

[teal shard]

from what im gathering from ziggy... you just havnt played against a good archer that is capable of hitting the ranged shots... therefore youre not seeing the value of staying far enough away from the action that your team can react to anything that would threaten you.

[tiny canopy]

If I can be honest:
Skirmisher could be exempt from archer bonus damage because it's way more involved in melee combat than other classes and also can be blocked by everyone without a shield.
Archers could take more sword damage and more arrow damage so they are actually countered by things and more swords have an opportunity to shred them at close range.
Crossbow and Longbow could both one-shot a non-overhealed archer more reliably to encourage archer vs archer gameplay.

To explain the last point, Archers rarely shoot at eachother (more than you would think) because they all just shoot at melee players.

If I play archer, if I don't shoot at other archers, they actually rarely shoot back at me.

[untold escarp]

Nerfing aim assist would solve warbow sniping.

[untold escarp]

Making archers one shot each other would motivate this

[teal shard]

aim assist shouldnt be a thing in general... thats a whole different topic..

[untold escarp]

In mordhau archers always target other archers first because it’s an easy kill.

[tiny canopy]

Yeah, imagine if the thing archers were basically focusing on other archers most of the time.

[untold escarp]

We can bring that culture into chiv

[tiny canopy]

Archers rarely pay attention to anyone else

they just shoot at melee players most of the time

[teal shard]

the only time i pull out a warbow.. is if there are multiple archers that i need to kill... becuase jav doesnt 1 shot them. requiring multiple throws to kill ONE.

[tiny canopy]

Theres also the issue of shooting other archers

A lot of the time youll shoot one, they get shot, then back up and heal

[teal shard]

i always shoot other archers first lol

[tiny canopy]

and you'll do this several times without a warbow

Actually there was also one time on lionspire that I picked up a warbow as a footman (there were just so many potent archers) and I hit about 8 or 9 warbow shots in a row on archers without actually getting a single kill.

[untold escarp]

Am I being ignored? I want archers to one shot each other?

[tiny canopy]

I know

[teal shard]

THIS is the issue.. and why jav should do 90...

crossbow, ive never seen as an anti-archer weapon. historically they were designed to pierce armor. and thats what they do in game.. so that makes sense.

[tiny canopy]

Archer overheal is insane sometimes

Seriously like, 9 shots in a row on archers without a single kill

I must've been the unluckiest fucker on the planet

how did they ALL have overheal multiple times

[teal shard]

i think overheal should prevent the 1 shot (unless a headshot) and this is to keep overheal actually worth something.

[tiny canopy]

actually, to extend this

Warbow can oneshot an overhealed archer and the other bows oneshot a non-overhealed archer

even longbow (as longbow is forced closer range anyway)

[untold escarp]

This could work

[tiny canopy]

See? I don't HATE archers

I might even play if it it was fun, it's just not engaging for me at all in it's current state

[teal shard]

i dont play archer.. i play skirmisher, sadly its classified as an archer so it takes extra damage because tiny shield dont block worth a damn.

[untold escarp]

I never claimed you did. I’m just trying to make archery enjoyable for myself. I’m playing more mordhau that chiv lately because archery just feels better in mordhau and I have a hard time using bows in chiv because you have to hold the mouse buttons down for so long.

[teal shard]

the issue with archery in chiv2. is that the counterplay is very dull. while the gameplay itself is even dull-er

when the counterplay is effectively "dodge around until you see a chance to close the gap... or hope youre friendly archers can shoot them first"...

and the gameplay is "welp, i hit him. he took damage... i hit that guy too. he was blocking.. still took damage..."

[tiny canopy]

Why do you want to play archer anyway

Just like it a lot?

[echo abyss]

I didnt think this post would get this much activity when i created it.

[untold escarp]

I like archery a lot, I used to do it in real life but can’t anymore.

[torpid hinge]

just dodge with bow and bow jab for free swap ez clap

[teal shard]

archers secondaries shouldnt change. there your topic has been answered. back to the debacle of the state of archering.

[untold escarp]

Archer secondaries are fine.

[echo abyss]

Post doesnt say change maybe add more options. You dont like the post you can go back to #🪓︱chivalry2 channel.

[teal shard]

if you dont like what the post has become. because archer melees are fine.. that rough buddy.

[compact tartan]

What was your motive posting this truly?

[echo abyss]

Exactly what the title says.

[compact tartan]

Archer is fine. If you don’t like what we have to say, you can go back to #🪓︱chivalry2

[echo abyss]

Didnt say archers werent fine but I can suggest a change. This is my post you dont like it leave.

[compact tartan]

Reminder You’re posting in a public server. If you don’t like that, then that’s tough pal

[teal shard]

this actually isnt your post. this is "deleted user"s post..

[compact tartan]

Oh really now?

[echo abyss]

Actually it is my post to my old account but thanks for checking that.

[teal shard]

my point being. you dont have the right to be a prick aobut someone having an differing opinion..

[echo abyss]

I dont care bout u having a different opinion. You not telling me the topic change because you dont agree with my post.

[teal shard]

"should get a better secondary weapon"... you didnt specify. add.. now get off your high horse before you get knocked off it.

[echo abyss]

What you gonna do?

[teal shard]

im going to give you a reality check, you dont own shit here. this isnt YOUR post.. this is a COMMUNITY DISCORD.. you arent the godlike being you think you are.. you are a normal person like the rest of us.. if you think archer needs better secondaries.."

get better at the game.

[untold escarp]

😐

[teal shard]

dude.. stop typing.. you dont win this.

[echo abyss]

Yeah exactly not doing anything just talk. The post i created on discord. No one acting like god you the one trying to tell me the topic changed. The post is suggesting better options. You first.

[teal shard]

and if you could read.. we were discussing WHY you cant give better options..

[teal shard]

let me guess. youre still in your teens.

[echo abyss]

I dont care why your opinions are lol. No but let me guess ur a kid.

[teal shard]

you created a feedback post and said "i dont care why your opinions are lol"

and no. im grown. but ive never seen an adult who is entitled as you are.

[echo abyss]

Yeah so grown that you have to insult user like a kid.

[compact tartan]

@echo abyss why you acting like a prick bruh?

[teal shard]

so grown i dont mind pointing out when someone is being a whining child because people didnt come flocking agreeing with you.

[compact tartan]

There’s a reason there was more activity when you weren’t here

[echo abyss]

Not doing anything just because I dont agree with your opinions.

[echo abyss]

You the one whining bout by comment and my post.

[echo abyss]

I am not here a lot because I actually have a life not stuck on discord all day.

[teal shard]

no. your being a petty little twat because we're talking about something other than "oh yes. give one of the most oppressive classes in the game better options.. that cant go poorly"

if youre asking for archer buffs that arent skirmisher specific.. youre only showing that youre not very good at the game.

[echo abyss]

Yeah keep with keyboard warriors insults that make you really grown kid.

[teal shard]

we get it. youre butthurt that i called you out. move on with your life

[compact tartan]

yet you tell people who don’t share the same thought to leave? Like what the fuck do you think this is? you posted on a feedback forum. FeedBack. Look at the fucking numbers lad! 103 people don’t feel so hot with your suggestion. Are you gonna tell them to go back to #🪓︱chivalry2 for disagreeing? This is a joke lol

[echo abyss]

No one buthurt besides u. You first.

[teal shard]

and you called me a child...gtfo off the internet its past your bedtime.

[compact tartan]

let’s leave this clown @teal shard

[echo abyss]

I dont care bout the disagreeing lol.

[echo abyss]

Its way past your bedtime kid.

[echo abyss]

Bye

[teal shard]

ya know. small children repeat what they hear the most.. i'd put money theyre not over 12.

[echo abyss]

You would lose money kid.

[teal shard]

dude. jsut stop. youve proven that youre a child. i dont give a single fuck how old you are chronologically. mentally. you are a child

[echo abyss]

What you gonna if dont lol. You proven you are a kid with mentality of a baby.

[tiny canopy]

Archer Main: Archers are fine.

[high olive]

My archer is 💅

[tropic condor]

I think they're fine. they just don't need to be stronger

[tiny canopy]

I think they could be a lot better

[tropic condor]

I don't agree with the idea that @echo abyss presents that they should have better options for secondaries

[tiny canopy]

I think they could be made less frustrating, such as making archers stronger against archers as suggested above

[tropic condor]

Yes but im talm bout the secondaries thing

[tiny canopy]

Yeah I know

[tropic condor]

in fact, nerf Crossbowman by replacing Axe with Hatchet :)

[tiny canopy]

I should make that a separate post

I'll @ you.

[tropic condor]

did you notice they stealth buffed quiver?

they just didn't tell anyone lol

[tiny canopy]

no explain

[split orchid]

quiver is faster now

[agile widget]

https://tenor.com/view/zelda-reaction-good-gif-13088713

[tropic condor]

Quiver is like double/triple speed and it also instantly pulls out your throwables on use

Genuinely thought it was bugged but then I remembered I suggested it