Fix Highland sword or remove it bc it sucks now

[magic sand]

This sword needs a damage buff of some sorts. This sword is hitting same damage as greatsword but it is way slower making it a dumb option to even use. It needs a very small damage buff for it to be usable without that you just need to remove it because its sad to even look at and to use.

[meager light]

Yeah, no reason to choose it over GS

[fast imp]

just don't use it, it's joke weapon actually, every other weapon is hella realistic, but this don't, now that's what you got :)

[wet sparrow]

Ah yes, running into battle with a staff against fully armoured knights with swords is more realistic right? Genius

[meager light]

Yes

[fast imp]

"stick good"-shadiversity

any weapon that's not a polearm or a GUN can't kill a full plate knight, esp on a horse

[signal gate]

Skill issue

[fast imp]

you right, Highland sord can kill, if you need to

[slate dagger]

you dont choose HS for the damage anymore. you choose it for the absolute ridiculous timing mixups and swing manipulation

[frosty mauve]

https://tenor.com/view/never-give-up-fist-pump-motivation-motivational-gif-4892451

You're getting flamed but you speak the truth!

[gentle sleet]

Wrong, you choose it to look cool

[fast imp]

i choose is to fry eggs on it, big fockeng iron plate

[oblique matrix]

https://discord.com/channels/209841695850889226/1045031021759967292

i literally said the same thing there but nobody flamed

i think its all about how you explain yourself

[fervent sigil]

Lmao the highlander sword is still my favourite

[oblique matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/who-asked-me-trying-to-find-who-asked-spongebob-spunch-bob-gif-22526294

[tired field]

"The Sword is hitting the same damage as greatsword" just is not true. HS out-damages the GS in all areas except stab. I took this image off Polehammer.netlify.app however I tested all the light and heavy swing types to confirm.

What makes it powerful is it's potential to 2 shot every class if used correctly - 2 Heavy overheads guarantee 2-shots any class, and you can mix heavies and lights to still achieve that 2 shot if it's an Archer, Vanguard or MAA. The only difference the damage nerf back in the summer did (65 > 60 Slash, 85 > 80 heavy slash) was that it removed the ability to 2 shot Vanguards with light swings. Other than that, it's still a very formidable weapon.

Range and power is valued over speed in TO only because most fights are done in wider maps and in teams. Highland is very powerful because it has those two attributes in spades as it can hit further ranges and bigger crowds with it's size. Teammates and other factors like objective and flanks serve as a distraction for you to prepare your swing.

Reason why speed isn't much of a priority (while still important) is because your teammates and other factors of group battles offset the necessity to act first. In fact, the lack of speed can be a benefit with mindgames, drags and lingering hitboxes. Slashes stay out longer because of it's slower travel time and can be pre-swung to wall out enemies. Highland Sword's weak attributes are it's difficulties to 1v1 and against people who gamble, which is a fair trade off to what it has going for it.

[meager light]

Honestly, just remove it, and I'm being serious, it makes absolutely zero sense, it looks goofy, and even if you changed the skin it still looks goofy just seeing this weapon ruins the immersion, and realism on the game, yes I know there is some stuff that is unrealistic, but it's there for game balancing or humour purposes

[wet sparrow]

I think highland sword should do less damage than a great sword but maybe do more damage to block. That way it would have its on niche on the weapon roster. It could be used as a guard breaking weapon that has a very slow wind up

[meager palm]

You really think this game is any close to realism? Please tell me your joking lol

[meager light]

Yes and no, all weapons are realistic besides the Highland sword, and yes you can throw people off catapults but that's for humour purposes, and yes there is people doing 360 spins while crouching so? That's gameplay there is no such thing as a 100% realistic game, and I was talking about the weapons, all the weapons look realistic BESIDES the Highland sword

[meager palm]

Ohhhhhh you meant the looks okay lol. I mean tbh yeah especially the Claymore. Claymores blade is not that wide is was thinner in irl but again its a game i wouldnt really care too much especially how this game is going.

[meager light]

Don't think they care about weapon realism anymore

[meager palm]

I dont think they ever did tbh I think they just got lucky with the looks.

[tired field]

They took some realistic aspects but it's fine to branch out of realism.

Making creative aspects that aren't necessarily "real" can still make sense in the world of "Chivalry 2" and can be a good experience. I dont think they ever claimed to want to make a super realistic game to begin with.

[meager light]

I know

[magic sand]

@tired field bro it only does more damage with overhead by 10 everything else same damage and it doesn't even hit the same damage it hits even lower than greatsword sometimes

They nerfed it and didn't say anything about it

[tired field]

It's still powerful, I've been using it. Only difference now it actually takes a little bit of thinking to use now.

[magic sand]

I just use executioner axe does more damage and is faster sadly

I just wish slash did like 5 more damage then greatsword not the same or less lol

[tired field]

Speed is not much of an issue. Only because in TO, you have teammates, the environment and objectives to distract the enemy. I mentioned before that its lack of speed plays to it's advantage. By that I mean the hitbox stays out longer and you can just walk into people or people walk into you.

With it's range (idk if they followed through with the range nerf for Winter Warfare) and longer lasting swings. It's same damage but higher likelihood to hit more enemies per swing. If GS has the potential to hit 4-5 players max, HS has the potential to hit 5-7 players max.

[magic sand]

The sword is great i was just saying in duels you aint winning against a knight gotta hit then like four times

[tired field]

I've had my fair share of wins. You're not meant to win a duel. It's one of it's key weaknesses that keep it in check

It's a knowledge check, many intermediate players know to gamble against HS. So use spacing and play unpredictably. HS thrown does a shit ton of damage and if you throw it after they block a swing, they actually get hit. Especially when you space it so it hits at the tip

[magic sand]

Well executioner axe hits for way more damage and has same reach

And its faster so doesnt make sense

[tired field]

Is there a recording or a photo of its reach difference?

There's a lot of comparisons being made to other weapons when my focus is to highlight why HS is strong.

And WHERE it is strong. Before it's nerfs, it was pretty much good at all fronts.

To cover it's weaknesses, you have to innovate new strategies.

A common thing I see is people compare HS to every other 2h weapon. It's like saying Falchion is bad because it doesn't have the speed of the sword, damage of a 1h axe, and the reach of a 1h spear.

[royal roost]

I've seen some people who still do decent with it, the animations are much different than the GS.

[meager palm]

I see this a lot too and its dumb. People think that one weapon is better than another they need to buff that weapon. Makes no sense and ruins balancing plus diversity of the weapons.

[dim pond]

I really don't see why they needed to shorten the shidder stomper. It was ok as it was ....

[grave needle]

because its easy for them to adjust scaling % and then be like OK WE LISTENED TO THE COMMUNITY, rather than make a meaningful change of any merit, or fix a bug

[gentle sleet]

It wasnt shorten tho, that specific part didnt go through this patch as jen said so in reddit

[tired field]

Yup, that's HS downplayers view it. The weapon at its current state now requires some form of risk or calculation if they want to gain big results. They can still go in head empty and still perform good but many of the complaints that HS is bad is because those users never actually had to put effort or thought into a kill before its nerfs.

Its good as it is now. Its important to play around the weaknesses it has. Vanguard can pick up a better secondary or use the knife if they find themselves in a 1v1 scenario and arent confident in their dueling skills with HS

[meager palm]

I usually just duel with HS and win fights easily mostly cause you can be really unpredictable with it as long as you know how to duel in general.

[tired field]

Yes, there's clear disadvantages for using HS in a 1v1 due to it's speed, that encourages the opponent to gamble against HS sword.

Due to the HS reach and other tools like jabs, throws, special, footwork and groundstriking - it doesn't really become an issue

Like, really. Activating a braincell here and there goes a long way

[meager palm]

your asking too much from people lol

[tired field]

frfr

[onyx loom]

Frankly it’s a pretty goofy weapon but flat out removing it would be depressing

Just have the reduced size and then make it a slightly slower and more damaging greatsword or whatever. Not every weapon has to be super duper unique and although it’s unrealistically sized it should still be a solid pick, people like it for a reason

[visual drift]

the extra range 100% still makes it viable, im able to hold off swarms of enemies by crouching, walking backwards and just swinging, which is something the GS cant do as well

[wooden geyser]

The sword needs just a tad of its speed back to make it enjoyable.
Also a reghit fix because it often goes through people without hitting.

[nova rampart]

highland sword is fine. The problem is netcode being giga trash, and that negatively affects everyone.

[tired field]

Agreed. Highland sword is good where it is now. It might feel terrible if you compare it to how it is back in the day. But take a few steps back and not compare it to GS (which you shouldn't). It's a solid weapon

[dusky badger]

I’m all for removing it from the game 👏😀. Nothing more immersion breaking than seeing a guts cosplayer running around twirling like a dark souls boss

Then again everybody does that with every weapon…

[tired field]

Having a comically large sword is Ok in Chivalry. Usually there's silliness and nonsense sprinkled throughout the game.

If it was Mordhau, sure, highland sword wouldn't fit there.

[dusky badger]

https://tenor.com/view/bobs-burgers-complaining-okay-fine-im-gonna-complain-the-whole-time-gif-15733884

[tired field]

https://tenor.com/view/skill-issue-gif-24176277

[meager palm]

Well devs added a new dark souls feature called the Staff Special. Has a big huge swing with a big delayed hit registry! Go nuts friend lol

[nova rampart]

I think it was riposte special which specifically caused desyncs most often, so try not to do that intentionally in duels servers unless you want to get nuked 😂
in pub TO who cares though, make it so annoying that torn banner at least puts some sort of nod at fixing it

[meager palm]

Well I laughed when they stated hey we got rid of the jav jump but never did lol

[pseudo dirge]

they were nerf for reason, they did too great then the great sword, it just giant boat paddle but longer side way, it just highlander sword pose to be equal as the great sword which balance restore what it is pose to be. What the old chad will say "Get Gud"

[wooden geyser]

I am level 120++ HS and I confirm the last updates totally ruined the fun.
It is either too slow or too nerfed.
In some conditions it takes up to 5 horizontal slashes to kill a knight.
Considering how it is slow, it's totally crazy.
I kill way more easily with a dane axe now, or anything else really.

[nova rampart]

why are you killing with slash instead of overhead, and with a full overheal(200) light slashes(50) would be 4 hits

5 would be with a banner I guess

[tired field]

They're another user who's not aware or downplaying Highland sword only because it wasn't mega busted like it used to be. Hyperfocusing on it's weakness instead of finding ways to cover those issues such as throwing or using special attack (faster than swinging the weapon/throws them off guard).

[royal roost]

I hated the game with Highland sword being overtuned, it was so dumb. This dude saying he "Moved to dane axe" because its just another weapon that requires virtually zero mechanical understanding of the game.

[tired field]

Exactly - "Oh this weapon sucks because it now requires risk and thought to maximize it's usage. Let me compare the HS to the most broken and top tier/usage weapons as proof of how shit the weapon now is (and not the average)"

For highland sword:
Slash is for crowd control - Not damage
Overhead is for damage
Stab is for mixup and low risk drags
Throwing HS and specials punishes opponents who try to gamble against HS' slow speed

[dusky badger]

Does HS overhead still have more range than greatsword overhead?

[wooden geyser]

Some situation doesn't allow overhead. I rarely fight again only one dude. You know that.

[wooden geyser]

The more the mouth is big the most the brain is small.
Thanks for your demonstration.
I am always top 5 of every matchs, often first and I play several weapons.
Facts.
I think I get well the mecanics of this game.
And yes the HS is bad in any way you see it know, and I didn't play it when it was overtuned.
I didn't play the game at all at that time.
And yes this weapon definately lost all its fun since the very last nerfing updates.

[wooden geyser]

The issue is you can take 3 naps between the slashes and get too easily attacked inside the HS attack.
It is like moving in extra slow motion and it lost a lot of his use against crowd.
So it basically bacame useless and dumb.
Also yes the rate of death with this sword if you want to score is quite higher than with any other weapon.

[tired field]

I listed what you should do if you wanna punish players who want to out-speed HLS. Which again is Throwing your sword or using special.

Pre-swing your weapon and take advantage of it's massive range.

[dusky badger]

The special is an actually viable attack?

[tired field]

In group fights, your teammates are distractions to the enemy. You need to combine pre-swinging and using your teammates to make sure the enemy is not hitting you

[tired field]

Sometimes, it's faster and not many players expect you to use it

Sometimes your best option is using some of your worst options

[meager palm]

It definitely can take people off guard. Me personally I only use it during duels even though you can use it in a group.

[nova rampart]

special is mostly a heavy slash mixup

[nova rampart]

it actually hasn't been changed since the damage was nerfed. The length reduction didn't go through.

[wooden geyser]

In duel it is good because of the block/attack per round mecanic, you often end up exhausting the opponent which end up bare hands or take him by surprise with an overhead to crouch position.

[wooden geyser]

But it has been slowed up, isn't it? This issue is more of an hassle than a power nerfing.
I hardly been killed by any HS sword except the classic "in the back attacks", because it is just too easy to counter and overspeed it.
The only pro is the length which is easily overcame if you know how to counter and if you are not afraid to dive into it's range.

[nova rampart]

almost imperceptible slows to the windup yeah

no major animation changes, alt overhead still faster and longer than normal overhead

and the highland sword's best tool, heavy overhead, is still effectively unchanged

[wooden geyser]

I find the special very slow to trigger and it let you especially vulnerable and throwing the sword is not ever an option either.
But if all your strategies can work in some situations, again the "slow" downside is so huge it often thwarts everything when you play against an experimented player.
And yes I always pre-trigger the slashes and always in the move to use the momentum, accompany the rotations movement and all.
I don't say I can't kill anyone with it, I do kill a bunch but it is underpowered compared to smaller weapons in term of global efficiency.
It is still good against newbies who tremble before it's length and don't know well how to counter.

[wooden geyser]

Overhead slashes are ok, I never question those. But overheads are good against single targets mostly. Even if possible, it is not easy to hit several ennemies with a vertical slash.

[wooden geyser]

I feel it a lot. It is not imperceptible, it is massive when you're used to play with HS a lot like I was, I used it all the time for months and nothing else. It makes a big difference.
Though the speed nerfing made me use other weapons and it makes the game like a new one with each of them.
The time spent with the HS sword shows its benefit with other weapons which are 100% easier to play, for me.

[nova rampart]

that is because the highland sword is secretly a support weapon which is also particularly good at delaying spawn waves and its damage values are generally appropriate, although messer doing more slash damage than HLS is stupid. HLS is low key a ganking weapon to rival poleaxe and in some ways maybe even the 2h spear. It's just not as good as the spear overall or as good as halberd or as good as the full package of the poleaxe, particularly considering class contexts. I don't think it's so much that the HLS is too bad so much as it's no longer in the top tier of weapons with Messer, Greatsword, Halberd, 2h spear, Heavy Mace anymore while not losing its unique niche and cadence entirely.

I didn't play a ton with the pre-nerf HLS because I wanted them to fix the animations and in particular the desync before I used it, but this is Torn Banner so they fixed HLS in the worst possible way 😂

I can say that HLS is one of my best dueling weapons for some reason lol

[tired field]

I dont agree with it being underpowered. Im using my experience based on both duels and pubs. Its not intended to be good in 1v1s, and its important to realize that. Its acrually better in 1vX than 1v1 if you can put yourself in that.

The special has endlag but it also causes guardbreak. Its faster than your usual slash and stab would be your normal alternative.

If you find yourself having more fun and getting better results with other weapons. Then yeah I agree its best to swap to those weapons. But by no means HS is underpowered or weak. You get much higher reward than most weapons due to its reach and good power.

If speed is an issue, why does nobody complain about the maul, which is just as slow and has less reach?

[wooden geyser]

Because the maul can kill in 2 moves only, it packs more power than the HLS.
HLS has been too much nerfed for it's horizontal slashes in term of power AND speed.
Rectifying only one of those would make it decent again, IMO.
As explained earlier, the final result with this sword is NOT what was being intented.
It is great on 1vs1 and not so great in pubs as it used to be just like a month ago or so.
Only the vertical slashes are up to this giant sword, as Sunder says, the horizontal slashes are less powerful than the messer one. Which is super fast also.

[meager palm]

You can actually 1 shot with Maul besides other vanguards lol.

[fast imp]

add a jab after special to kill vanguard, won't work if player has health boost

[meager palm]

use overhead over jab then health boost dont matter lol

[fast imp]

don't matter actually, player who hits a special always have attack priority over their opponent

oh i forgot, i don't care, i have preordered golden greatsord😎😎😎 best sord

[meager palm]

ew yuck preorder lol

[tired field]

For the fourth time, horizontal slashes is meant for crowd control. Someone mentioned before the overly sluggish feeling comes from netcode/hitbox not lining up with the animation properly. Maul hits hard but does not cleave through, HS slash covers more ground and can hit multiple enemies, iirc HS slash is 40~50? If it hits 2 people minimum you will out damage a single slash from maul.

Flanking will increase your chances and even guarantee multiple hits. Messer, Greatsword and Dane Axe is often compared to HS -which is bad to do so cuz all of them are also busted. At HS release, it was overtuned and can be used as a frontline trasher. With it's nerf it fits more of a 1vX weapon/2-hander that can be used with ambusher tactics.

[nova rampart]

the maul also has huge range deficits compared to highland sword in exchange for being one of the few weapons with the sheer level of manipulability the HLS has and its massive amount of damage. It should be weaker on swing than maul. It wouldn't be reasonable for it to be anything else. I just think HLS suffers more from the horrendous netcode and hitreg than the average weapon rather than being in a problematic place for the game

and for the weapon

the Analyzing Lag thread is a real "wait what the fuck" moment for good reason. We thought it was only like 20-30ms more for a long time, but holy fuck

[royal roost]

Ping has never been calculated that way in any game, it's simply just the latency between the server and client.

[wooden geyser]

That's a nice answer if you live in Theoryland.
In Realityland, you have to use horizontal slashes in 1vsmorethan one to try to put the attackers at bay.
And when you manage to hit them, it sucks that it is so nerfed, because it is not easy to do it, it is slow, and you have to do it way more times than such a sword would need if it was correctly tuned.

In 1vsmore than 1, overheads means opening to side hits.

[tired field]

Just say you don't know how to adapt or utilize the sword properly. Stab drags and slashes are your go-tos in 1vX. overheads are risky to use in those cases.

[wooden geyser]

I make +100 knocks in some matches with the HLS so I think I know how to use it.

[tired field]

Been using and applying what I've mentioned, gave a few of these pointers to friends and their mileage has been helping a good bit.

I'm just saying it how it is. Speed isn't the main emphasis in pubs. It's valued in 1v1, but it's established the weapon isn't meant for that.

Reach and stopping power is important in pubs/1vX. Which HS still has. Utilize strategy. It's not a theory - distractions are literally everywhere and everyone.

[wooden geyser]

Yeah I think we will agree to disagree on this one, I have counter exemples for every of the technical points you mentionned earlier.

On a totally unrelated note I think you should check my atcher class modification suggestions.

[tired field]

Could you put em here, then?

Would have been a time saver if you posted them earlier.

[wooden geyser]

For highland sword:
Slash is for crowd control - Not damage IT IS NOT DEDICATED TO CROWD CONTROL, IT IS PART OF EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO DEFEAT SMART OPPONENTS
Overhead is for damage : REALLY I KNOW THAT BUT WHEN YOU DEAL WITH SEVERAL ENNEMIES YOU CAN NOT DO IT AT WILL, IT IS AN OPENING TO A SIDE/BACK HIT FROM THE OTHERS BUT YOUR TARGET. UNPRACTICAL IN SUCH SITUATIONS.
Stab is for mixup and low risk drags : SAME ISSUE THAN OVERHEAD, AND VERY SLOW FOR A STABBING.
Throwing HS and specials : TRIGGERING STATIC SPECIAL IS LONG AND THE ANIMATION SELLS IT A LOT punishes opponents who try to gamble against HS' slow speed
ALSO THROWING SWORD WORKS AGAINST A NOOB BUT NOT AGAINST SOMEONE WITH A MINIMUM FOCUS AND REFLEXES. BECAUSE TOO SLOW, AGAIN. IT LITTERALLY NEVER WORK AGAIN ON ME. AND SO ON MANY +100 LEVEL PLAYERS.
To all of this you have to add : extra exhaustion rate, fucked up reghits, it happens too often that the HLS goes litterally through someone without hitting.
And again too nerfed against knigt class especially.
Whatever the tactic, in the end increasing the number of times you have to strike an opponent to lay him down is a great handicap.

Especially with a slow-ass weapon, less for a fast rate one.

[tired field]

So I made those points as a basic flowchart. Of course those tools are malleable and has multiple layers. Having a flowchart and combining that with your fundamentals is what helps you win. But in pubs and in duels, as stupid and non applicable any of what I mentioned. It has worked for me, won against experienced pub and duel players plenty times.

So, maybe Im just a HS god or theres more to HS than people give them credit for. But at this point its a stalemate.

Ive also taken down lv 100+ players because I threw the sword, just putting it out there. One of the reasons why it works is because it does a shit ton of damage and experienced people do not expect it. Reaction can and has been limited by unpredictability.

[meager palm]

The Maul can Cleave through but only charged attacks not standard. But I would still prefer HS to cleave through crowds over Maul lol.

[tired field]

Right. Because of its massive reach and lights will be faster than Heavy Slash Maul.

But even for accel or drag purposes, its still good despite its slowness. It has a bigger emphasis in spacing and making the right reads as a HS user

[meager palm]

When it comes to FFA as I play it so much I almost reached 2000 matches already lol. HS is seen a lot just so people can cleave through and usually kill 5 people at once. You won't see it much it mixed modes cause of teammates. But then thats when you utilize over head just like any other reach weapon to avoid damaging teammates. But yet again you do get people that don't give a fuck about teammates and just cleave through their entire team too just to get 1 person lol.

Hell even comp players use HS a lot too lol

[tired field]

It's just very good, it's still very good to those who have the mindset to make the understanding and adaptations to make it work.

Which I can understand why both new and competitive players still use it

It's also a comically large sword.

[meager palm]

Well usually you get people who just suck at the weapon so they think its bad but they aren't at the skill lvl what most people are to actually see its big potential. I'm not actually trying to shit on anyone but that usually is the issue which in due time when they have the experience and go back to the weapon they realize its really good. You get some who just really have bad luck with it or get the few that just really don't think too much. " Spent awhile trying to type the last sentence out as nice as possible lol cause again I ain't trying to be mean. "

[tired field]

This is true.

[nova rampart]

I think it might still be user count restricted specifically because of the overheads?

it used to be limited to 1 because it controls so much space but also does 100 damage overheads

[meager palm]

Don't remember it had a user count restriction. I know the Engineer class was restricted to 1 and Archer classes were restricted I think to 4 but never heard of them restricting weapons.

[tired field]

Theres no player restriction on weapons, only classes. Devastator (which has HS) is not one of those restrictions

[dusky badger]

lame sword

[nova rampart]

there are restrictions on weapons and classes in comp leagues, not implemented ingame of course. HLS was limited to 1 for a significant amount of time if it isn't still, spears to 2 or 4 depending on game size, and archer was 1 or 2 in some environments.

[tired field]

Oh so that's what you mean

[meager palm]

Oh yeah I think they removed the restrictions for comp on HS idk have to ask Atilla or one of them. But yeah the big reason why they did it cause HS is so damn strong lol.

[tired field]

Ahh gotcha. I believe HS is still very good. I mainly am a 1h weapon user, but use HS because it was one of the weapons that constantly gets changed nearly every major patch.

It gets harder to use, but rightfully so. Still very rewarding, probably not as rewarding as Dane, Messer, or Greatswords. Which shouldn't be a comparison point at all since they're the best of the best, any weapon is gonna feel like shit if they're the benchmark

Best of the best in terms of perceived intended usage

[meager palm]

Tbh I never really see too much of duels with Dane. I only see them be thrown all the time and usually it happens to connect to my back lol.

[tired field]

Danes are good in duels. Usually not used because there are other more appealing dueling weapons to use. And 1h Axe tends to be the dueling alternative.

I've seen more Exe axes before I stopped playing and wondered if that's the axe for dueling. Not too sure

[meager palm]

With the tournament duels they actually use a lot of different weapons its not all just 1 weapon used like longsword. You get Executioner, Mace, Halberd, War Hammer, Maul Etc. Only weapon that you don't really ever see anymore is the Katars. Katars completely died.

[tired field]

Mhm, Katars is a gimmick weapon. Not something that many competitors would use long term

It requires entirely different fundamentals to use, and it's mileage varies too much and too weak to justify usage

[meager palm]

The most big issue people brought up was it doesn't stagger on hit. So it makes users play more defensive and to counter a lot. I will admit doing trade off's with the Katars it isn't worth it most the time unless your target is severely wounded. The biggest advantage it honestly has is its fast special that's about it.

Honestly if they made Katars stagger on hit then you will see a big improvement on game play with Katars

[tired field]

Yes, they would be extremely powerful 1v1 weapons

[nova rampart]

katars would be downright broken if they staggered on hit. It will never be a great weapon, but they could do a lot without making them stagger to give them a place at least as a fun "change of pace" instead of a total trash can

[meager palm]

I mean that is everyones main issue of the weapon. To me I don't see an issue tbh and almost made the weapon as my top with close to 10k kills and actually getting wins in ffa with them. The reason for the stagger is because of the real low damage they do have as they are the lowest hitting weapon in the game. They could possibly add stagger and possibly nerf the damage by 3 points then it might be balanced? But other then that I don't see what they could actually do with the weapons as this is their first weapon that doesn't stagger on hit.

[tired field]

Hit stagger is incorporated in a way that not having it makes that weapon weaker than those who do.

If you land a hit with katar, and the enemy swings, you're forced to block, which results in less stamina with what you started with.

[meager palm]

Once you hit with Katars you can immediately counter. I actually done it many times, they gave the Katars the ability to follow up straight after a hit to a counter in micro seconds.

[tired field]

Would you have to block first?

I didn't know that, interesting

[meager palm]

Yes but you can still do it and get the stamina back. Remember your rewarded for stamina with hits and counters

[meager palm]

I can look through my clips and see if i have one showing this and can send you what im talking about

[wet sparrow]

Katars aren’t really for dueling. The reason they don’t stagger is because they’re supposed to be used as an assassin type of play style. Killing someone from the back and then if you get in a duel you try to parry and get to some teamates so they can take over the fight for you while you try to find someone else to kill from behind

[tired field]

Awesome,

[wet sparrow]

I think you should get a movement speed with Katars though. Seems reasonable

If not a movement speed then at least a decrease in the amount of time it takes to get to full speed from jogging to sprinting

[meager palm]

Katanas? loll jk i know what you meant. But yeah and since they gave it to the ambusher you get that nice juicy bonus damage that can almost 1 shot people if used correctly

[wet sparrow]

Yeah exactly. It’s a weird type of play style. Not a fan of it tbh because it’s not really rewarding

Most of the time you can achieve the same result with a great sword. Does 90 dmg from behind with a heavy slash and then you don’t have to rely on some shitty Katars that don’t stagger if you get in a duel

[meager palm]

lets chill you cant compare Katars to a great sword lol. Thats like saying your comparing the knife to a great sword

[wet sparrow]

You can definitely compare them. Katars are supposed to be the master of assassinating, that’s their whole play style. If a great sword or a simple axe can achieve the same results but even offer more reliability in terms of defence if you get in a duel then the Katars are a master of nothing

That’s why they need a buff. There needs to be some sort of insensitive to use them over a great sword or axe. If you get a movement speed with them then they will be better for assassinating when compared to a great sword that wouldn’t have the movement speed

[meager palm]

Again you cant compare two handed weapons to one handed weapons. Thats how game balancing breaks. A 2 handed weapon should always deal more damage then a 1 handed weapon. But a 1 handed weapon should have more speed then a 2 handed weapon. If you were to compare katars to the dagger then yes thats valid that dagger would be a better choice lol

[wet sparrow]

Great sword special attack does 100 damage from behind. Katars do 100 or 110.

[meager palm]

The reason why they do more damage is because of the perk the ambusher has. I am talking about damage alone without the bonus from the class.

[wet sparrow]

I’m not talking about that tho

Of course Katars shouldn’t do more damage in a duel over a great sword…

But Katars should be better for assassinating, yet the great sword is better than them in doing that and offer more reliability like I said before

[meager palm]

But again even if your not talking about damage at all you still cannot compare a 2 handed weapon to a 1 handed weapon. Like what kind of logic is that?

[tired field]

Katars have two conditions for that bonus damage: Users need to be Ambuser and they must be behind the enemy. Greatsword and Katars are not comparable in that case because they have complete different methods of achieving that damage.

[wet sparrow]

You can compare them because that’s the whole point of the ambusher class lol

[nova rampart]

the main problem with ambusher as a concept is how hard it is to actually be behind a player. I think in general they'd need to significantly mechanically change how ambusher works if they want backstabbing to be a powerful enough mechanic outside of simply cleaning up players already in your backlines.

[wet sparrow]

Yes they are comparable because greatsword is better than Katars at killing people from behind

[tired field]

You can compare them, but it's a shitty comparison. Because they don't fulfill the same purpose. It's like comparing an RPG to a pistol.

[nova rampart]

removing footstep noise would be step 1, as footsteps only occur when enemy players are nearby

[wet sparrow]

@nova rampart that’s what I was saying

[meager palm]

Ambusher doesnt even get 2 handed weapons and yet your gonna try to still compare them lol. It doesnt matter if thats what you think. This is how balancing in games are broken, when people start comparing weapons when they shouldnt be comparing them in the first place they either make weapons way over powered or completely nerfed to the point they are unusable

[wet sparrow]

That’s why they’re comparable

Katars should be better at doing their job over a simple weapon like a greatsword or axe

Ambusher class should have a decrease in the amount of time it takes to go from jogging to sprinting

So they can kill someone, parry an attack and then quickly get out

[meager palm]

This is wrong too Greatsword does 110 too as well

[wet sparrow]

Something to give them the edge over a simple weapon the achieves the same thing and offers much more

[wet sparrow]

Proves my point even more then…

[tired field]

You're comparing the worst weapon to the best weapon lol

[wet sparrow]

That’s why nobody uses Katars or the ambusher class at all for that matter

[tired field]

But goes without saying that katars do need change

[meager palm]

even then it doesnt matter you still wouldnt compare these two types of weapons together. They are completely different categories lol

[wet sparrow]

Why do you keep saying I’m comparing them

[tired field]

Right

[wet sparrow]

No shit I am

Because Katars should be better at ambushing

[tired field]

Because you are. You're putting greatsword damage in comparison to backstab katar damage

[meager palm]

^^^^

[tired field]

Katar's speed makes it easy to finish off after dealing backstab damage, which greatsword does not have the luxury of having

[meager palm]

they have a chance with the alt over head tho

[wet sparrow]

Bro you’re not gonna sit there and tell me Katars are better at getting kills by assassinating over a greatsword

[nova rampart]

yeah. I don't think ambusher should be fixed at the weapon level for the most part. I don't think katars should ever be put on the same "level" as greatsword, because the simple range differential puts them in different classes of weapon regardless of other attributes, for example.

In the katar thread I think my suggestions were:

1. remove the stam penalty(it's stupid)
2. add actual lunge to katar attacks, including special
3. extend the range a bit/scale up the weapon slightly, whatever it takes to make the hitreg a bit more reliable yet can't go overboard with it obviously

and then a suggestion I stole from Pizza Steve's stream, inverse knockback or at least no knockback+good lunge.

None of these would make the katars even a B tier weapon in TO, but they'd carve out a real niche for the weapon in a fun and interesting manner.

The only reasonable way to buff the katars after that would be to fix Ambusher.

[wet sparrow]

Try not to compare them to a greatsword or these 2 will get upset

We’re not allowed to compare them apparently

[meager palm]

Another thing Pizza brought up too is the interrupt is completely useless. they need to make a change on that

[nova rampart]

it isn't, because if you remain at the back the katars have a faster ttk, heavy stab combo into special all backstabs is something like 130 damage

[tired field]

I am. Katar users are more likely and inclined to sneak to the back lines compared to a greatsword. Which by the way is much more noticable compared to katars.

[meager palm]

he just agreed that you shouldnt compare them lol

[nova rampart]

the real problem with katar is it doesn't hold up to even dagger out of ambusher's own weapons

and dagger should cleave tbh

[meager palm]

Your logic is like comparing a pistol to an rpg saying the rpg does more damage to a tank then a pistol so they need to buff it

[wet sparrow]

Bro u have like a learning disability or something. Honestly

[nova rampart]

I don't think katar needs damage buffs to hold up closer to dagger, but it certainly needs to mechanically work for hitting players and remaining in combat

it's a scrapping weapon which can't scrap

[wet sparrow]

@meager palm greatsword has some running speed as Katars. Does that make sense to you?

[tired field]

Look, katars are bad. But you're better off comparing them to the dagger or something.

[wet sparrow]

Did I just compare a Katar to a greatsword? Wow so weird of me…they shouldn’t be compared ever

[tired field]

Using greatsword as an example doesn't make your point stronger.

[meager palm]

and here you the only one making childish responses like this when i just told you you cant compare those types of weapons together. Ask anyone and they say your in the wrong lol

[wet sparrow]

Yes you can compare them. I just did

[meager palm]

Everyone here is saying you cant do that lol

[wet sparrow]

3 people out of how many that play this game

[meager palm]

go ahead ask people around then

[wet sparrow]

What do I care what you kids say. You’re probably casuals

[meager palm]

Dare you go to the comp players with this logic and see what they say lol

Better yet ask Preacher from BE clan

[wet sparrow]

Logic? What’s my logic exactly

[tired field]

Better off not arguing.

[meager palm]

Then why bother putting your two sense in?

[wet sparrow]

I’m saying Katars should be better at assassinating than a greatsword. Doesn’t seem too far fetched to me

Does great sword have same running speed as Katars. They do

[meager palm]

Any 2 handed weapon would be better assassinating people regardless of the game and regardless of irl.

lol

[tired field]

Katars are better at assassination. It's easier to spot a greatsword user with how big the sword is.

[wet sparrow]

Any 2 handed weapon is much heavier and harder to run with than something like Katars

[wet sparrow]

Greatsword is better. Which is why they’re comparable

[meager palm]

Actually you would be shocked that even a short sword could be heavier then a 2 handed stick lol

[wet sparrow]

Also you just compared them like how I was. Good job

[tired field]

I did, only visually. I'm not using them as a comparison in terms of buffing or nerfing either weapn

[wet sparrow]

I said greatsword is better at assassinating than Katars and Katars should be better. Now you’ve just done the same thing but opposite

[wet sparrow]

Bro what are you smoking

[meager palm]

I think i found one of the people you were talking about in other discussion that should probably think more lol

[wet sparrow]

When have you ever heard of someone being assassinated in the history books or news by a fucking big ass sword

[meager palm]

You never heard of the 100 year war assassinations or Crusade assassinations?

Actually nvm that was mean to say cause not everyone will know like every bit of history hell even i won't

[wet sparrow]

@meager palm explain to me why Katars can’t be compared to a greatsword in chivarly 2

[tired field]

Could you dm me the link?

[meager palm]

yeah give me a second

[tired field]

Also, this is a HS thread, we shouldn't argue about this any longer

[wet sparrow]

Explain to me why Katars can’t be compared to a highland sword

Using this logic then what’s the point of even having the ambusher class

[meager palm]

I specifically said in my chat before they are completely two different types of weapons. When you start comparing damages of weapons from two different categories then thats when you start breaking the Balancing of weapons

[wet sparrow]

Damage has nothing to do with it

Highland sword is better at killing people from behind than any ambusher weapon

[meager palm]

Tbh there is no logic to the class. These subclasses they made, the whole community has been against it and they should of kept it the way it used to be with just the plain 4 classes and no bonuses.

[wet sparrow]

Why is that? It’s not just about damage

It has to do with how the ambusher class can’t get away after they kill someone

[meager palm]

@wet sparrow You were comparing damages

[meager palm]

Wrong you were comparing damages

[wet sparrow]

So they have to defend with their shitty weapon when a greatsword can do the same exact thing + does more damage from behind + better at defending

[meager palm]

Again you cant compare the two

[wet sparrow]

@meager palm how old are you

[meager palm]

they are two different kinds of weapons

[meager palm]

You play COD or battlefield or any type of FPS game?

[wet sparrow]

Tell me how old you are or I’m not gonna bother talking anymore

If you’re a lil kid I’m done with this convo

[meager palm]

Oh please go ahead thats fine lol

[wet sparrow]

Yes I play battlefield

[meager palm]

Alright maybe i can probably make this easier to show in sense of BattleField then. So your comparing Katars to Greatsword. So Katars to battlefield is considered a pistol and greatsword is considered a sniper. You cant compare these two weapons together as a sniper should be doing way better then a pistol could in terms of damage. No matter if it isnt damage you cant compare pistol to a sniper saying pistol is better close combat then a sniper when the weapons are completely two different categories. When people start bitching about something silly like this comparing weapons that shouldnt be compared too is basically asking for a pistol to 1 shot like a fucking sniper would. I would rather a M9 not 1 shot me from range like a sniper would lol

[magic sand]

Greatsword is better than highland sword end of discussion

[wet sparrow]

You’re still missing my argument

You’re focused on the damage part once again

[nova rampart]

most assassination weapons have historically been less damaging to a body than actual full-size weapons. It's actually ahistorical and unrealistic that even on backstab the katars can be as close to the greatsword as they are and the dagger can do what it does with stab and special.

They're only comparable because it's a game, and from a balance standpoint Ambusher's flanking problem is not a weapon problem, so comparing weapons is utterly irrelevant to that discussion. It's something which needs to be fixed at the subclass level.

[meager palm]

reread i even said " No matter if it isnt damage you cant compare! and give explanation."

[wet sparrow]

You’re completely missing my argument. All you care about is comparing them and the damage part

[meager palm]

you need to reread

you basically stopped when you saw damage lol

[nova rampart]

and to some degree at the level of the spawn system itself

as the spawn system is maybe the single most damaging thing to flanks

[tired field]

The entire kit of greatsword makes it harder to flank, and follow up with a finishing blow. It can 1 shot archers. But nobody is gonna get flanked by a greatsword user, which is better used to hold down front lines

[wet sparrow]

Yes they do

[magic sand]

You can flank with any weapon

[wet sparrow]

Greatsword is better at flanking than Katars and that’s the issue

[meager palm]

I mean thats why i said the class is completely useless cause yes people with greatswords do flank too

[tired field]

Thats not the argument here

[tired field]

Just cuz you say it is doesn't mean it actually is.

I provided you examples of why and all you say is "nah" 🤡

[wet sparrow]

I don’t care what you think. If used both weapons intensively and greatsword is way better than Katars at doing it’s own job

And that’s the issue. The ambusher class isn’t used by anyone and is only for memes because every other class is better at doing what it is supposed to do best which is assassinating

[tired field]

It's not about what I think, it's about what I know lol.

If you wanna ambush, use a dagger

[wet sparrow]

Greatsword is better at ambushing than a dagger

Why use a dagger. I’ll just use a greatsword and then if I get in trouble and can’t run away from someone after ambushing then I have a greatsword to duel with instead of some shitty dagger

[magic sand]

Greatsword is the best at everything lol

[wet sparrow]

And that’s the issue

[magic sand]

No issue

[wet sparrow]

Of course it is

It’s why nobody plays the ambusher class. It’s a useless class

[tired field]

I use daggers because it 1 shots vanguards and MAA from backstabs. Which GS cannot do.

[magic sand]

Gotta have some meta weapons can't be all equal

[tired field]

Plus I have access to throwing knives as an ambusher with dagger while you do not with greatswords

[wet sparrow]

You’re assuming everyone is full health at all times…

[wet sparrow]

Greatsword class has throwing knives as secondary

[tired field]

If you're flanking or hitting people from the rear, they're most likely gonna be near or full health

[wet sparrow]

Maybe I should send you some clips of me ambushing with a greatsword then

[tired field]

It would have saved us a lot of time if you sent them earlier, sure.

[meager palm]

People play the class to run around with dagger and throwing knives

[tired field]

I'm not saying GS cannot flank. Im saying you're not gonna get the same feel or result.

You're gonna have a harder time flanking with GS, I say that from experience

But sure, let's ignore all of that

[magic sand]

You dont have throwing knives with greatsword you have mallets

[meager palm]

I mean this is what he is right about cause i agree it doesnt matter the class anyone can flank but its more beneficial for you play ambusher if you are doing flanks for the bonus damage when you hit in the back.

[meager palm]

No depending on class. Vanguard GS has mallets and Knight has throwing knives

[wet sparrow]

You have throwing knives with greatsword as a knight

[meager palm]

@magic sand what he said

[magic sand]

Why are you flanking with a knight then

Vanguard sprint duh

[wet sparrow]

Doesn’t matter what class

Both get same results. A little easier as a vanguard due to more stamina but same thing really

Both are still better than using an ambush class

[tired field]

Knights are slower in mobility.

Making it harder to get those flank routes

[magic sand]

You gotta use vanguard to get that 100 special

Sprint wombocombo

[meager palm]

Its more common sense to use vanguard for flanking as you get the stamina boost with special but at the sametime if you use ambusher and use dagger you can get faster kills then any other subclass or class you would use.

[magic sand]

I don't really car for ambusher you wanna use one hand weapons go use man at arms

[meager palm]

Every class has 1 handed weapons lol

[magic sand]

They just gave the option and put a cool name i don't think they went crazy in depth with it just giving more options

Yes but man at arms is strongest with it

Lol

[meager palm]

ehhhh i think knight would be tbh with more health and they can carry shield too

footman just has better speed

[magic sand]

From my experience in duel lobbies i would rather duel a knight then a man at arms one hand

Maybe in TO

[meager palm]

Im pretty sure you dueled someone when they played knight with 1 handed hammer and shield. Its really common to see

i would prefer to fight footman over that shit lol

[magic sand]

I guess its all just opinions

Bottom line tho Highland sword is bad in duels and TO

[tired field]

Not at all.

[magic sand]

Take too long to kill people in TO

and in duels

[meager palm]

Well its hard to say for 1 handed weapons as every class is equipped with 1 handed weapons besides the only subclass which is engineer. But no its not bottom line for Highland sword that its bad in duels or TO. Its used a lot and streamers plus comp players show that a lot its really great regardless of the situation.

[magic sand]

I never see it being used

I never see you people in duels

[tired field]

Yeah, I moved on to different games, but was still using it after the nerfs.

[magic sand]

Just because a streamer beating noobs in 64 doesnt mean its good

[meager palm]

I only play in duels when everyone dips from FFA because of the Hippo map. You will see me often when the clans are in the duel lobbies then we would be dueling a lot.

[tired field]

If your heart isn't set on making it work, and you're not invested in working around it's weaknesses. Then yeah you're gonna assume its bad.

[magic sand]

It doesnt keep up with the other weapons

It was the only weapon i used

[tired field]

I've been taking down experienced players with it for a while.

[magic sand]

I used it more than you both

[tired field]

Ok, doesn't really say anything about how well your fundamentals are as a players

[meager palm]

Thats most likely true as i only got the game like last year and only have like 400 hours into the game.

[magic sand]

Yep

[meager palm]

But yet again i used weapons that people used a lot more then me and i still would do better lol

doesnt matter how much time you have on a weapon it just depends on your skill level in general

[tired field]

I don't need to spend 300 hours on a highland sword to be good with it, neither do I need to take that long to realize how good it is either.

[magic sand]

Well we can test the theory if you guys wanna

I can tell your both knight mains

[tired field]

MAA

1h MAA specifically. But OK

[magic sand]

Executioner axe is way better than HL

More damage and faster

[meager palm]

nope

not a knight main lol

[magic sand]

Roblox main

[meager palm]

actually almost every class is close to the same level besides footman which i need to fix lol

i can tell you my most used weapons or even post it on here

[magic sand]

I believe no need

[meager palm]

you would laugh lol

[magic sand]

Probably

[meager palm]

id be getting shit for it lol

[magic sand]

Archer main

[meager palm]

no matter how hard i try i cant get past the warbow time lol

[magic sand]

You using the weird weapons lol

[meager palm]

Well I usually like to do in any game is basically use the weapons people say suck and destroy lobbies with them just to annoy them. Basically showing people it really doesnt matter about the weapon its the skill level of the user lol

[magic sand]

Yea well thats not tha case here HL is bad

And i watch people struggle with it trying to duel

[tired field]

HS is not supposed to be strong in dueling?

[meager palm]

I used HS in duels a lot actually. People get really fucked up by either the drag or the alt overhead.

[tired field]

I'm inclined to believe you haven't explored or have a good understanding of the weapon, Demon.

And I dont mean that to be rude

But, the solution is indeed spend more time with other weapons. And improve your fundamentals

[meager palm]

if your name is actually demonsouls in game then i have seen you

[magic sand]

It is

[meager palm]

yeah ive seen you in duels then

[tired field]

Threw HS in duels before. Because of it's high throw damage, you can get a disarm or a big chunk of health down

If I get a disarm, I pick up THEIR weapon, throw it across the map or at them, and pick up my sword

[meager palm]

ive beaten someone with bow and arrow in duels lol

hit him with the bow, shoot an arrow and repeat these 2 steps lol

[tired field]

Yeah, it's the unorthodox stuff

[meager palm]

its funny as hell to do it lol

But yeah you will see me in the FFA community more then duels cause FFA has a way better community lol

[tired field]

FFA seems like they mainly do it for fun. Right?

[meager palm]

pretty much

this is why i love FFA lobbies cause they all got overloaded good players like this