#removing the ability to dodge out of counter feint

240 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

hardy axle
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why did TB change this, its been the same for almost 17 months, its a core mechanic that many of us duelists have built muscle memory that cannot just simply be forgotten. And this is making high level duels much shorter, seeing as how now its forced upon us to play rock paper scissors once a counter volley starts. at least when we could dodge out of counter feint, misinputting the wrong attack wasnt something i was afraid of doing since i could dodge away and start again in neutral. I mean a dodge out of counter feint(counts as a wiff) is a TON of stamina, i'm not really avoiding a punish if i'm punishing 1/3 of my stamina bar....

11.18.22-dodge-out-of-counter.png
raw bison
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This change will greatly reduce mobility and the dynamicness of spacing in combat. why would anyone want the game to be more static? This is a bad change

warped badger
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I've felt for a long time that counters are way too strong. Counters should be a defensive mechanic, not an offensive one. If they wanted you to feint out of counters they would just let you. Counters in their current state can be spammed by some weapons, with little to no consequence (Like warhammer). They should have always been a thing you use after a good read, not just a better swing that sometimes deflects attacks.

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This reigns in that play style a bit of just spamming counter swings. Like the post says, you have to commit to them now, not just use them as a better alternative to a regular swing.

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I don't think it really limits footwork or mobility, its just a cheap way to "feint" out of a counter. It's a bad habit a lot of people have developed.

idle nest
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One message removed from a suspended account.

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One message removed from a suspended account.

raw bison
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Duels are one thing but I use this in TO to great effect. Did TBS consider how this would change TO? Or are they just listening to duelists when making changes?

IMO, if you can read and successfully counter an opponent's attack, there's no reason you shouldn't be rewarded for that. Counters are not strictly better than ripostes, either, they both have uses. This change will just glues combatants together when otherwise there would be the option of keeping distance.

warped badger
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I'm personally looking forward to the change. Hopefully it will make counters less spammy and more of an intentional use mechanic. Being committed to the attack is a perfect way to tone them down a bit. Feints and Cancels should be kept in the realm of normal attacks.

unique shadow
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it was a good change, if you knew how to use dodge out of counter you were effectivly immortal

raw bison
# unique shadow duelists have the best understanding of the combat

duelists have the best understanding of 1v1 combat. that is not the only game mode. hell, it isn't even the game's flagship game mode. they usually don't play that mode.

I really, really hope TBS is listening to people who are good at the game who don't duel (in addition to the top tier duelists). A change like this will greatly change the flow of combat, and it really doesn't feel like TBS considered the multiple-combatants angle of this change.

idle nest
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One message removed from a suspended account.

idle nest
hardy axle
raw bison
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Immortal*
(Offer not valid in multiple -commandant game modes)

cerulean drift
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this is a great change

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less slop more actual defense/fundamental sword play

hardy axle
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you mean more rock paper scissors

raw bison
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It re-focuses the game on the input matching mechanic. For worse, imo

devout night
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Was this mechanic intended to begin with

hardy axle
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yeah you always have been able to dodge out of windup

cerulean drift
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eh the games a bit more than three options and i don’t think removing the option for people two be wrong in two counter attempts to still get out of it makes it into a rock paper scissors game

raw bison
cerulean drift
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just no get out of jail free cards

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you can’t claim at the same time that the input matching is ez

hardy axle
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nah this is a big change and you know it

cerulean drift
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while saying that the stam damage from dodging makes up for not being punished for being wrong on consecutive counters

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it’s a big change for ppl who rely on this mechanic a ton

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knight main 💪 so can’t relate

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my feet stay planted ten toes g

hardy axle
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bro in top tier duels you get one hit landed on you, youre melted from there on out

devout night
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I don’t think it’s that healthy to be able to dodge cancel literally non stop in any game mode though

cerulean drift
hardy axle
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against mids yeah

cerulean drift
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just block the next swing or catch one counter and literally walk away

raw bison
cerulean drift
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what i said isn’t duel specific

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i also don’t spam dodge cancels in TO

devout night
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Alright so if you’re playing T.O in a 1vX you should be able to dodge cancel and just never get hit?

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I don’t understand the argument

cerulean drift
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i guess so lol

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u should be able to counter feint (be wrong twice) and just dodge away

raw bison
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It is not a guarantee of safety in TO

cerulean drift
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fuck the console plebs who have zero chance of catching u now

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(no chase mechanic)

raw bison
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That's a separate issue

cerulean drift
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u just took a dumb fight, played poor d and got away with it

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aids imo

devout night
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I mean yeah you can literally dodge cancel and then run away from a 1vX

hardy axle
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nah not always

devout night
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And this isn’t an intended mechanic to me it’s the same as quad feinting

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Unless someone can show me then Idk if it should be intended

cerulean drift
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this is like the disarm change tbh

hardy axle
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if i input the wrong counter feint

raw bison
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Other than the fact the game has always worked this way and people are used to it?

hardy axle
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i sjould be able to dodge out of windup

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just like any other attack

devout night
cerulean drift
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lmao

raw bison
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It was janky but they fixed the hitboxes

devout night
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Key word is fixed

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So at one point it may have been exploitative?

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What about quad feinting? It’s in the game and not intended. Should we just keep it

raw bison
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Yeah and they explained the technical details of how it came to be and how they fixed it

hardy axle
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like if i dont catch it in time then yeah i get punished but if i catch that i misread the counter feint in enough time to be able to dodge out of it(like during the 3ms windup) i should be able to dodge out of it

devout night
hardy axle
raw bison
devout night
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That’s my entire point you said “Other than the fact the game has always worked this way and people are used to it?” But that was in the game and had to be fixed

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Is this any different?

raw bison
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No, they made a change that introduced it

hardy axle
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bro its been in the game for goong on 18 montjs

raw bison
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There was an unintended effect which they fixed

devout night
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That’s not because the devs want it in the game though

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They just haven’t done anything about it

hardy axle
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why would they make a change to core gameplay like that (still talking about dodge out counterfeint guys)

raw bison
devout night
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I don’t really care either way to be honest I’m just wondering why it should be a reliable mechanic

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I understand why it’s good but should it be

hardy axle
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BECAUSE I LIKE BEING IMMORTAL

cerulean drift
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literally

devout night
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I mean like I said you can get in a 1v2 and dodge cancel pre nerf and never lose stam and just never get hit

cerulean drift
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what can the offensive player do if he reads ur dodge cancel

devout night
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How is that good for the game

hardy axle
cerulean drift
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literally nothing but hope they can can do their swing into the ground before u are inevitably already swinging

devout night
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At some point he has to swing tho rabbit

raw bison
cerulean drift
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lol advance into the free swing

cerulean drift
devout night
cerulean drift
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and that’s arguably more important

cerulean drift
devout night
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If you have no stam you lose regardless

cerulean drift
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esp with how “easy” countering is

cerulean drift
hardy axle
cerulean drift
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can’t replenish health

devout night
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I mean you can

hardy axle
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bro yea you can

devout night
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But not fully yeah

cerulean drift
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stam is less important for ME bc i can hit counters personally

devout night
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It’s subjective

cerulean drift
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might be built different tho

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one is an infinite resource the other isn’t

devout night
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If I’m fighting kwazi i don’t really care about my health cause if I don’t hit counters I lose anyway

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Health is redundant

hardy axle
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bro you dont take a hit for a certain amount of time you regain it

cerulean drift
devout night
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I mean the longer you counter the more health you’ll regain up to half HP too

cerulean drift
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that takes so long

hardy axle
cerulean drift
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eh just a couple min if not less on avg

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lot less long than a long TO engagement/streak

devout night
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Longest duel I had was 2:45 seconds

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And that shit felt forever cause we kept countering everything

cerulean drift
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me and mcbob have some straight 5 min battles

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shit can get wild but it’s usually like a min max

devout night
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I agree

cerulean drift
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i can see why this change would be hated but i really don’t think the avg player will even feel it

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bc if they are dodge canceling they don’t even know it

devout night
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I just don’t see the benefit of it staying

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Yea

cerulean drift
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it’s like removing handle hits

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polehammer/halberd and other stick wep enthusiasts would be sad

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but like they’re aids

devout night
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I don’t care if it stays or not I just don’t see why it really has to

unique shadow
raw bison
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not sure i follow. you dodge out of a counter, putting you out of range of the guy you countered, into another space with any number of threats there, that are NOT present in a duel

devout night
raw bison
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i mean that's kinda my point? there is no such thing as perfect safety in TO, unlike in duels where you can keep track of the one and only threat you're facing. this change punishes TO players at the expense of "fixing" a mechanic duelers use

devout night
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How many TO players even know this exists for it to be cared about

raw bison
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<---

devout night
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People probably are doing it on accident

raw bison
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discovering this mechanic is a cobblestone on the road to getting good

devout night
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If you’re in a 1v2 you can literally just dodge cancel infinite times and keep moving away

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Riposte one attack dodge cancel the other

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Like u can do that continually

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I don’t see how that’s beneficial for the game

raw bison
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are we assuming 2 braindead opponents who will do nothing but continually advance and attack?

devout night
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That’s usually what I run into In TO

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someone feeding me active parry an entire 1vx

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So I’ll just take that counter and dodge cancel

raw bison
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i mean that's how TO works - i can punish you for a mistake your teammate made. it's still a skill thing

devout night
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For sure I agree

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But the point being why do we need dash cancelling

raw bison
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changing a core mechanic after 18 months of muscle memory feels bad, doubly so when there isn't a convincingly good reason why it should change

devout night
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There’s no convincingly good reason to keep it other than it’s been in the game long

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Same with quad feinting that’s technically an exploit but it’s still in the game

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I land a hit then i combo 3 more attacks within the chain but that’s still in the game

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I don’t think it should be neither

unique shadow
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just use it to cancel your counter feint

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it gives you the ability to counter feint 4 times in a row pretty much

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also duelist play TO as well lel,

raw bison
idle nest
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One message removed from a suspended account.

raw bison
# unique shadow just use it to cancel your counter feint

the only way this is a get out of jail free card is if you are assuming the baseline assumptions of a duel. TO has very different assumptions and under those it is most definitely not.

which is kind of exactly my point here - TBS does not seem to have considered the TO assumptions in this change

unique shadow
raw bison
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yes, but there always other threats at all times

unique shadow
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if you mess up a counter then just dodge away

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and bring your block up immediatly

raw bison
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even 1v1 you need to not be in the catapult blast zone

unique shadow
raw bison
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this change is prompted by the objection that this mechanic allows for a "free" benefit when used. the benefit doesn't exist in the same way in a multiple combatant scenario

unique shadow
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1v1 encounters happen

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In comp LTS this happened a lot and made killing someone almost impossible

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a free way to run away as well

raw bison
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i think we're focused on different things. i'm concerned about how this will change movement because of when dodge is allowed or disallowed. you're focused on how it will change the allowable attack patterns. is that a fair understanding?

unique shadow
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im talking about how defense is really good and the change was necessary. Before the change you got 2 counter attempts then dodge then you get 2 more counter attempts (if you were vanguard you could repeat this process 2 times in a row)

unique shadow
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but its exploitative (was)

raw bison
raw bison
cerulean drift
devout night
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how is dodge cancelling skillful imagine youre Xv1 and the dude is war club dodge cancelling and you literally cant kill him

hollow moth
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this was a good change

cerulean drift
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how is it rewarding anything other than missing your counters. if you didn’t miss it then you’d stagger ur opponent, get refillable iframes and also free stam

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if u miss it then u get hit instead of being able to dodge away

hollow moth
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what people are missing is that chiv2 has a myriad of ways to deal with various situations

dodging out of windup removed all of the options and boiled it down to 1 move instead of needing to make a choice based on the circumstances

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being able to dodge out of windup made

cancelling redundant
combo feint to block redundant
pre countering and then counter feinting to match an unexpected attack redundant

being careful about your windups redundant

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it also makes fights last 20 years since dodging out of a bad input match is super easy and gives undue power to vanguards when they are already very powerful

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dont talk about "being mid" when a 1 button mistake eraser rather than having to think about your defense is just about the most casual thing you can do

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technically you can dodge out of initial counter windup if you dodge very quickly, but you can't dodge out of counter feint which is a good thing

I would prefer if you couldnt dodge out of windup at all but im very much fine with the compromise

raw bison
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can you ask tbs to let you write the patch notes? that's an argument that makes sense. thank you for taking the time to write that

hollow moth
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you're welcome and if they wanted me to i totally would

fiery vault
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I thought they already patched this

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Oh they did nvm

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Game doesn't feel any different without this thing

pseudo spoke
fiery vault
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this was a good change

hardy axle
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and you know what yall, i've already gotten over dodging out of counter feint windup, i'll just dodge out of normal windup/counter windup 🤷🏾‍♂️

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my post was originally pointing out that they are making a change to core mechanics that have been that way for going on 18 months, @hollow moth

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they're entire reasoning for putting dodge on every class was so that players could use it to get away from an attacking opponent (so instead of countering them you can dodge)

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but likei said idrc about this anymore i'm already over that muscle memory anyway

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i have a new gripe

hardy axle
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who tf is gonna let someone dodge cancel counter feint 3 times

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ur gettin punished by my first initial counter that i threw because i didnt read the dodge cancel because its basically impossible to read

idle nest
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One message removed from a suspended account.

sterile orchid
sterile orchid
hollow moth
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no, they really dont

sterile orchid
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Yes they do

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Lack damage and range need to duel

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They literally playing dark soul at this point

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And maybe doin the poison build in some case

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Backstab a guy, gtfo of fighting, go back, build the speed, backstab another guy

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Unless you go with a group, that will be your best playstyle with ambusher

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Even with dodge still haven't been nerfed, runaway and dodge to evade the 1vX situation is still hard to be done right

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And ya gonna need that go back step so ya can tank atleast 2 dane axe throwing at you

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Pray to be if you have to tank them instead of dodging them without looking back, the chase mechanic kick in hella hard

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Also, a javelin to the head is something ya would bear in mind when playing this class

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A perfect AA just for fuck a damn class

devout night
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Dodge cancelling has already been nerfed last patch

unique shadow
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lmao its funny how the people arguing notice the change so little, that they dont realize its already been patched

sterile orchid
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Not always, but it's still there

sterile orchid
hollow moth
quaint bramble
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I didn't understand this change either, was this actually that big of an exploit?

sterile orchid
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You could say that, i kinda abuse that "mechanic"

quaint bramble
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@sterile orchid right, but did this really have to happen? 😐

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i hope they dont do any more of these types of changes, its a medieval combat game, not chess.

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Fighting is all about reacting to things.

sterile orchid
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Well maybe because some mf keep saying that duel took too long

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While the fact that they keep nerfing weapon and other is too good when duel that they keep up the fight, but don't have enough damage to finish the other

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Other thing is that if ya are a master in counter, ya will never run out of stamina

idle nest
sterile orchid