Medical System

[sly spruce]

Way too many survival mechanics for a game that isn't a survival game here

[slender sorrel]

It can obviously be dumbed down, but this doesn't nessarrily mean survival game. for the turner kit it's like playing resident evil and only having a red herb when you need a green. The idea is to create tension with "needs" for keeping you friends alive in a horror setting.

[sly spruce]

Resident evil is a survival game

[barren blaze]

Nah medkits would go crazy fr

[sly spruce]

He's asking for a full ass medical system

[barren blaze]

zamn

[slender sorrel]

I'm more of asking for a need for items of health and if you only have "health"...that doesn't really work

unless you make something like a "green" herb and "red" herb system

This "needs" concept has been a stable of horror games for 20+ years

It creates tension

[sly spruce]

5K is slower paced than most shooters, but much faster paced than survival games, in a game like 5k a system like this is going to either slow you down so much more than usual, or just be really annoying

[sly spruce]

Of survival horror games

Regular horror games do not have needs systems

[slender sorrel]

The game is perfect

[sly spruce]

?

[slender sorrel]

This game is killing floor, or left 4 dead, games that have horror "themes" but no scary elements or is meant to scare you

[sly spruce]

You think medical systems are scary?

[barren blaze]

yes

[slender sorrel]

not having what you need is tension.

[sly spruce]

Yeah

You can get that still

[torn flax]

doctors are scary man 😔

[slender sorrel]

Word

[torn flax]

last time I saw one he stabbed me and put my blood into a bunch of machines

[slender sorrel]

The stuff of nightmares

[sly spruce]

The game has been consistently adding actual horror, but not changing the entire genre, adding in a medical system would definitely change the genre

You can invoke horror through means other than that of survival horror

[torn flax]

simply add taxes.

[sly spruce]

This game is specifically targeting tactical horror, which in the words of one of the devs "Is sort-of the inverse of survival horror"

[torn flax]

but yeah nah, it would be nice to be able to "store" a medical item to use on you or a friend and sarifice maybe a few pickups for that.

[sly spruce]

Survival horror generates fear by taking away control, tactical horror generates fear by giving the player control

[sly spruce]

He also wanted different damage and healing types

[torn flax]

I know

I'm picking a good part of the idea out of what is a bit too much

[slender sorrel]

That's fine

[sly spruce]

I don't really like that idea either though, having low health and having to go into areas with enemies to get health generates more fear

And is again putting more control onto the player, rather than just using what you found way earlier, you have to, yourself, find what you need

[slender sorrel]

Like i said, game is perfect

[sly spruce]

this is a forum for opinions about the game, you have to be prepared for people who don't like yours

[slender sorrel]

yuuuup

[sly spruce]

Yeah?

[slender sorrel]

This is a fair break, I think that just idea of finding a medical item and going..."Oh this guys hurt, but do I want to spend it now" that stress of now or later does come from that, as well as prevents backtracking (And since enemies on some maps don't just keep respawning)

[sly spruce]

?

I don't really understand what you said there

[sly spruce]

I kinda get it now I think, although how does that prevent backtracking or cause stress?

[slender sorrel]

Taking a piece or disagreeing works, just the small bit and as you said "limiting" the medical items would go a long way to making more team choices (like in GTFO with tool and ammo kits) and also adds elements of indecision leading to doubt, or "when is the next healing item going to show? soon? a long way ahead". Good stuff for horror, good stuff for co-op games.

[sly spruce]

In 5k though you take a LOT of small damage that you immediately heal so as to not risk getting one-shotted

Limiting the medical items is just going to get players one-shotted a lot more

[slender sorrel]

Either way thanks for the input V snake

[torn flax]

'course

[sly spruce]

I understand you are ignoring me but it would be great if I could discuss this with you

I am providing input on how I think about this

[torn flax]

I also mentioned giving less overall pickups. The ability to save a medical item would mean less need to spread so many out and generally increase the stress.

it would also mean that you would not have to go back for a med item, which I found to be an issue in chapter two because that map is huge

[sly spruce]

For this game you can die in 1-2 hits, so as I said earlier, giving out less healing will make players just get one-shotted and feel like there was nothing they could do about it

With the way the game is set up, saving healing items would never be a good choice

[slender sorrel]

Cal, couldn't they just increase the health then?....

[sly spruce]

That is changing a fundamental aspect of the game

[torn flax]

that would be a change just to make another change work

[sly spruce]

It is a tactical shooter, known for low TTK

[torn flax]

that's never a good route

[slender sorrel]

I tend to agree, but there is also respawning. and that kinda stamples the current "1-2 hit kill" but do we know if this is the intended end?

[sly spruce]

Yeah

It is marked as a tactical shooter everywhere, it has always been so

[slender sorrel]

To me it seems like respawning (as well as checkpoints) are stepping stones toward the end product. I could be wrong though

[sly spruce]

I mean there was a devlog a while ago about talking about how they were specifically approaching tactical elements

[torn flax]

definitely

[sly spruce]

Which is unrelated to the tactical shooter aspects

[torn flax]

Currently the game is a lot more arcadey than their end goal, I have no doubt about that. It's likely what they're using to balance the game out while they work on the core mechanics

[sly spruce]

They are going to finalize with the checkpoints, they made the chapters too long to have the player actually go all the way through in one go reasonably

[slender sorrel]

I'm of the same mindset, but we will have to see. as well as the new circumstances those changes bring up

[torn flax]

I'm mainly talking about the respawns

the checkpoints are fine

especially for the first area

[sly spruce]

I'm talking about the end-game checkpoints, and that is what syn was talking about too pretty sure

The stuff you respawn at when you fully die

[torn flax]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about

[sly spruce]

I did mean that

They made the chapters too long for players to play through in one sitting reasonably

They are making those checkpoints accessible from the menu, too

But, again, unrelated to the tactical aspects of the game

Tac shooters do not necessarily need permadeath

Just low TTK so that you focus on tactics rather than mechanics

[torn flax]

precisely

[sly spruce]

Which is again sort-of the inverse of survival

Which are primairly focused on the mechanical parts of the game

[torn flax]

though you mean low TTK, high TTK means it takes a long time to kill.

[sly spruce]

Oh lol

oops

[slender sorrel]

Arma is a tatical shooter, but so is ready or not, ground branch, and scp 5k. That "Term" isn't so clear

[sly spruce]

so that you focus on tactics rather than mechanics

That is my definition of it

[slender sorrel]

Isn't tactics a mechanic?

[sly spruce]

"an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end."

So it's thinking

Not a mechanic of the game

[torn flax]

No, the term is actually pretty clear. Tactical shooter is any game with a focus on strategy over just shooting better. Tending to have realistic gunplay and movement controls (leaning and whatnot)

[sly spruce]

^

[torn flax]

and if strategy becomes a mechanic of a game, then it's a strategy game.

stuff like xcom and whatnot

er, tactics, sorry.

[sly spruce]

tactics and strategy are synonyms

[torn flax]

eh, you'd be surprised the things people will nitpick.

[slender sorrel]

So let's say I play something like GTFO and I'm using tactics with it's very slow movement and gun play, that's defines it as a tactical shooter? I just trying to get a grasp on what you guys are saying

[torn flax]

I keep forgetting GTFO has guns honestly

[slender sorrel]

Fair enough...

[sly spruce]

Is that the easiest playstyle

Or the most effective

[slender sorrel]

Ok different line of thought...

If i was to take COD and remove all the killstreaks, make you move slower with leaning. then COD is now a tacitcal shooter?

[torn flax]

Yes and no

if you're playing the hardcore modes yes

otherwise no.

[sly spruce]

You would also need to lower the TTK

[slender sorrel]

This still seems loose to me for some reason. Like when every game was writing "RPG" on their game

[torn flax]

stuff like one shot headshots, one or two bullets being all it takes to change you from upright and living to down and dying.

[sly spruce]

All genres are loose

Things are hard to define

[torn flax]

it's why they're genres.

[sly spruce]

What is an RPG

[slender sorrel]

Then wouldn't that mean the rigid rules you've stated for the reasons why what I'm saying as possible ideas don't exactly make sense then

What I'm trying to say is if it's loose...then wha'ts "right" and whats "wrong"

[sly spruce]

The rules aren't rigid

[sly spruce]

Nothings right or wrong, these are all my opinions

From my perspective you are asking to change things that I view as fundamental aspects of the game that would (in my own opinion) make the game worse if changed

I am trying to explain the thought process that I am using to come to my own opinions so that you understand why I think these things

You also brought up definitions of genres throughout here, saying that certain mechanics are staples of horror

[slender sorrel]

Dread, indecision, doubt. Yes I know what you're talking about

[barren blaze]

aint no way this is still going

[sly spruce]

Although, you haven't brought up any examples of games outside of the survival horror subgenre that have the VERY SPECIFIC mechanics you are asking for

The best way to define if something is in a genre is by telling if the people who made it call it apart of that genre

This game is constantly refered to as a tactical horror shooter, and never referred to as a survival horror game

Infact the devs have said that it is not a survival game

[slender sorrel]

So survival mechanics is defined has having a limited amount of resources correct?

and needing to use the resources sparingly?

[sly spruce]

Not exactly

Resource management is the main part

[slender sorrel]

Am I crazy here V?

[sly spruce]

Deciding when to use stuff, and being forced to use stuff outside of your own control

conceptually survival horror is about not having control, and the horror that comes with that

It is not the only way to have horror

[slender sorrel]

ok, so by that line of thinking, something like GTFO would not be defined as a survival horror game, correct?

[sly spruce]

I have not played GTFO

Do the devs call it survival horror?

[slender sorrel]

They do not, they call it a "hardcore cooperative horror shooter"

But it has resource management

horror themes a tight items.

[sly spruce]

Then it isn't one

Genres are not well defined

If the people who made it don't see it as one it isn't one

#💬general_chat message

[sly spruce]

Also, one of the streams had a whole section on this

(Very recently)

[slender sorrel]

So "popular wisdom"

[sly spruce]

Just on the specific thing that you are talking about

Not popular wisdom unless you are talking about the genre as a whole

[slender sorrel]

Ok, so now for this game to become a survival horror, it would need a grid item system (or something like it) where you ammo is stored. and that simple inclusion would convert it correct?

[sly spruce]

No?????

When tf did I ever say that

[fringe mulch]

I want to see a medical system in a game where all the animations are you using the items extremely incorrectly

Example: Eats the roll of bandages, drinking the alcohol, etc.

[sly spruce]

Did you forget everything I just said

[slender sorrel]

preach!

[fringe mulch]

SCP 5K is not a survival game period

Making it a survival game might make me stop playing it

But I'm not against medical items obviously, it's an FPS game

[slender sorrel]

Ok, what are the mechanics you want to avoid specfically?

[fringe mulch]

I don't like the idea of the 3 types of health you did

I don't think it would really fit in with the game

[slender sorrel]

Ok, so if like what V suggested, just the ability to carry some meds you find with you be ok to you?

[fringe mulch]

Sure, carrying meds and using them quickly is no problem

But trying to make it a survival system, something you would find in a survival game like The Forest for example, is not a good idea

[slender sorrel]

I tend to agree with this. I guess I should explain the core idea behind my idea conception in what it adds to the gameplay. Not everything you find is what you need. but you still want it for later. Does that type of design turn you off?

[fringe mulch]

A good example of a good medical system for an FPS game in my opinion is No More Room in Hell. It's a simple medical system with fancy animations but it's not a survival system

[sly spruce]

That still is survival design

[slender sorrel]

So a basic bleed, and a medkit to a heal actual damage and stop bleeding as well? I guess this very simular to hardcore health in amnesia the bunker if you've played it. or do all items

or is one heal just weaker than the other?

[fringe mulch]

Amnesia the Bunker is not an FPS game

[sly spruce]

And you won't be able to get players to actually wait to use stuff unless you change the game on a fundamental level

[fringe mulch]

And yes I've played it

[slender sorrel]

I'm refering to it's healing mechanics with medkits and bandages

[sly spruce]

Amnesia the bunker is a survival horror game

[fringe mulch]

Exactly

[sly spruce]

You have repeatedly brought up nothing but survival horror games

[fringe mulch]

Those healing mechanics would not work for SCP 5K because of its "survival horror" nature

[slender sorrel]

So then what is the difference between those and no more room in hell? what am I missing?

I tried to make a compairson

but i feel I came up short

[fringe mulch]

No More Room in Hell is not a survival horror system

You pick up item and heal. It has fancy animations, that's it

[slender sorrel]

Ok, so basically casual amnesia the bunker healing mechanics. they function the same way. not it's hardcore where you need med kits to actually heal damage

it's just healing. Period

[fringe mulch]

Those are mechanics are not specific to Amnesia

The bottom line is that FPS games do not need complex healing systems at all

Complex doesn't equal quality

[slender sorrel]

I know, but they had a hardcore option that added more elements, so I was wondering if that's what you wanted or just plain healing

and the exact same medical items

[sly spruce]

It's literally just the same as now but with animations, that is what he is explaining

[fringe mulch]

I personally don't think SCP 5K needs an easier or harder healing system

It just needs a straight forward healing system, as it is now

[sly spruce]

That would be too much work to add something to a hardcore mode that most hardcore fans would not want

[barren blaze]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1088712797510185040/1238538040675401829/spongebob-nervous.gif

[fringe mulch]

SCP 5K should not even have a difficulty system

[slender sorrel]

Ok, so you like the placement of almost left 4 dead system. where there a pickups along the path, and MAYBE carring it

[sly spruce]

I feel like modifiers would be good

[sly spruce]

No carrying it

There would be no reason to in 5k anyways

[fringe mulch]

Absolutely! See that would be fun, but I mean a standard "Easy, Medium, Hard, Hardcore, ROCK HARD CO-" system yknow.

[sly spruce]

Yeah

[fringe mulch]

That kind of system wouldn't be fun

I actually would like to see modifiers

[slender sorrel]

So I just want to confirm that adding a medical system is a survival mechanic only? and that a game like arma reforger having one denotes it and makes in NOT a tactical shooter but a survival game. Beyond that having a the pickups be on the map (none in the loadout menu for example) with maybe an animation and (possibly) being able to carry some of them or not. Is this the general agreement?

[sly spruce]

Never said anything like any of that

[fringe mulch]

No it is not exclusive to survival games

However

What you described initially was a survival system

And you continued to describe survival systems

[slender sorrel]

Ok, i see there is more to eleberate on. What parts is?

[fringe mulch]

But our opinion was that SCP 5K has no need for an expanded survival system because of the game's nature

[sly spruce]

It works in Arma because it is incredibly incredibly slow paced, and there is no shortage of healing items

Really all injuries do in Arma is slow you down more

[slender sorrel]

For example, in reforger your medics carry medical items in their inventory. these are morphine, bandages, turner kits, saline, etc. Each has their own use in healing wounds. Are those considered not Surivial mechanics or are they?

[fringe mulch]

From the viewpoint of SCP: 5K gameplay, it would not benefit the game in any way

[sly spruce]

For reforger it is not surivival

[slender sorrel]

But are those the survival mechanics that we are talking about?

[sly spruce]

For 5k it would be

[fringe mulch]

^

[slender sorrel]

is this because it is a horror game? or other reason?

[sly spruce]

reforger is alot slower paced, so you are never in shortage of medical items and never have to manage them

[sly spruce]

Because 5k is faster paced

[fringe mulch]

SCP 5K and reforger are very different games in many aspects

A system like that just would not work well in 5K

[slender sorrel]

so the separation is literally the game pace? not the mechanics themselves.

[fringe mulch]

Bruh.

[slender sorrel]

I'm just repeating what you are saying, and confirming

[sly spruce]

You could add other mechanics from reforger to 5k and it would be fine

Both the mechanics and the pace work in tandem

[slender sorrel]

I'm trying to have a consistant understanding

[slender sorrel]

it's a living...

[barren blaze]

?

[slender sorrel]

It's just a good image is all I'm saying

[sly spruce]

Let me explain this better, reforger has no reason to manage the medical resources because it is slower paced and you will get more before it's ever a problem, 5K would have a reason to manage the medical resources because it is faster paced

[slender sorrel]

So it's NOT the mechanics that make it a survival game mechanic. but the pacing?

[sly spruce]

IT'S BOTH

ARE YOU READING WHAT IM SAYING

[slender sorrel]

So, because if it either either the pacing OR the mechanic. it is now a surival mechanic

[sly spruce]

It's both the pacing and the mechanic

[slender sorrel]

SO by adding those things TO arma it is now a survival game? Correct?

[fringe mulch]

Lmao

[slender sorrel]

since one or both is now true

[sly spruce]

You are stupid bro

[fringe mulch]

LOL

[sly spruce]

you are absolutely not listening

[slender sorrel]

I have literlly been typing what you guys are saying back to you and you say "no" or "bruh"....

[sly spruce]

It's both the pacing and the mechanic

[slender sorrel]

What does that tell you?

[sly spruce]

In tandem

both at the same time

both contributing to eachother

[slender sorrel]

Everything i have said for the past 100 comments is YOUR WORDS back to you. and the you say "bro you stupid"

[sly spruce]

i've explained this ten times

[sly spruce]

No it has not been

[slender sorrel]

Listen I've made the clear point, that you can't argue. as you have changed your view to what ever it needs to be to make YOUR POINT FOR NOW...valid. That is called not having a point

[sly spruce]

I NEVER CHANGED IT

[slender sorrel]

I'm done talking to you I've confirmed this

[sly spruce]

THAT IS NOT MY POINT

[fringe mulch]

What the fuck are you talking about Synpathy

[slender sorrel]

just scroll up and read

it will click

[fringe mulch]

You are not listening to a single word he says

[sly spruce]

I think I understand what he was doing, he was trying to say that only one of the things turns it into a survival mechanic, so arma would be a survival game, and since I kept disagreeing with him he just started making it up that I said the same thing

[fringe mulch]

Lmao this is a forum for opinions

@slender sorrel do you not get that

[slender sorrel]

LOOK AT THE TOP OF THE POST!

clearly not an issue

[fringe mulch]

I also looked at the other posts where CAL responded.

You can't seem to take other opinions.

Just because something sounds cool on paper doesn't mean it's fuckin radical as shit mate!

[slender sorrel]

I've credited you and V for different Ideas

[sly spruce]

You started ignoring me immediately, you only started talking to me again when the guy you agreed with started talking to me

[slender sorrel]

Notice how when I guy was disagreeing with me I didn't ignore them

I didn't do that to 90

That's a inconcistancy with your arguement

[fringe mulch]

Also just some advice:

When yer coming up with ideas mate, you need to put yourself in the shoes of the developers. How does this idea benefit the game, what are the pros and cons, is my idea absolute dog?

[slender sorrel]

Ok, if you see that as a problem I will take that to note. Can you give me examples so I can learn from it?

[sly spruce]

90 was basically saying the same thing as me, just that he wanted animations

[slender sorrel]

or is this what you had said before?

[fringe mulch]

Nah I take it back, no animations are needed

[sly spruce]

You didn't understand that though, so that's why you added it, you thought he was agreeing with you fully

[slender sorrel]

I believe I did write "possible" let me check that.

[fringe mulch]

But it would he cool even if it was such a quick animation but that can conflict with some other things

[slender sorrel]

Could that possible take the place of the "hold F" allowing you look around while you use it?

as a possible suggestion?

[fringe mulch]

People can come up with suggestions all the time for games. But if you want to create a good suggestion, you need to take everything into account that already exists in the game

You did not do that

[slender sorrel]

So basically something like the "crouch sprinting and other quality controls" as an example. is that what you are refering to?

[sly spruce]

That would be cool actually, although it might be more trouble than its worth again

[fringe mulch]

I'm talking in general not specifically about your suggestions.

I was trying to give you advice.

[slender sorrel]

I was just trying to see if my other one was handled in the way you are suggesting of if I have been off the entire time

[fringe mulch]

It could come with more problems yeah

[sly spruce]

It is different from how all the other pickups work

[slender sorrel]

So do we want me to put that on the top, or to be read as an idea or no?

[sly spruce]

If you want

[fringe mulch]

We're not telling you to do anything

[sly spruce]

Again, this is a public forum for opinions, we aren't telling you to do anything, we are just saying our own opinions

[fringe mulch]

Yah

[slender sorrel]

This is long fourm, and people aren't going to read down that far, your suggestions would fall under everything

That's why I asked

If you want that to be shared, then there

[sly spruce]

If it's at the bottom or the top it'll be seen

[slender sorrel]

Well then look a V snake, no one would see that. so if the discussion continues...there ya go

I don't want suggestions to be dropped.

but side note: How do I add a space so it's broken better, hitting enter doesn't work

[sly spruce]

Shift+Enter

lol

[slender sorrel]

OH SHIT! XD

AHHAAA!!!

[sly spruce]

Happened to my bug report too

[slender sorrel]

whelp, I'll make a cliff note on the bottom then

[sly spruce]

Goomes got it from the logs for me, so if you want it ask him when he gets back on

[slender sorrel]

Thanks

Should you send him a direct message or not?

[sly spruce]

He does check the forums, but you can DM him if you want pretty sure

[slender sorrel]

I guess I could put here

@lime ivy Hey goomes, I was trying to format a suggestion to show the viewers feedback clearly on top and I kinda deleted the whole post by accident

[sly spruce]

Made a suggestions post about it

[lime ivy]

i dont think i can restore it if you deleted it unfortunately

[slender sorrel]

I understand, thanks for looking into it

[lime ivy]

i can reopen posts that are closed down but if they are just wiped out then ya i dont think i can

[slender sorrel]

it's fine, i'll just set up a cliff notes of everyones take away down here

It just no spammed me...

[slender sorrel]

Would you guys be upset if I just started a new post with their feedback and closed this post/deleted it?