#Adjustments to make cluster missiles, CRAM/APS mortars, and magnet mines more worthwhile/viable

65 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

warm topaz
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Some adjustments to make cluster missiles and CRAM mortars more worthwhile, and more in line with their regular counterparts in terms of cost and effectiveness.

For cluster missiles, removing the need for the sub-munitons to have launchpads and instead having a single block be a customizer to replace such would significantly help reduce the excessively volume used for clusters. To prevent the cost from launchpads going down so much, the customizer or main launchpad requires a certain number of expensive "missile compactor" blocks depending on configuration (less cluster volume requires fewer "missile compactors"). Some adjustments to mat cost for the missiles may be needed to reduce the increased cost to merely fire a salvo as well.

For CRAM/APS mortars, an option on the firing piece to massively increase the gravity of projectiles it fires if using a high angle trajectory. This would significantly reduce the incredible increase in travel time from firing upwards, as high angle projectiles have the same shot arc if both their speed and gravity is multiplied or divided by the same amount.

For magnet mines, increasing the attraction range to 200m, significantly increasing the speed of travel from magnets (and/or reducing the drag from water while under magnet power), adding IFF functionality, and a function that briefly reduces missile speed after impacting water (launched air to sea mines often overshoot targets and continue to travel through water at high speed) would greatly improve how usable magnet mines are against slow (20/ms) targets.

real falcon
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I'd love if time was freed up after the japan exposition and release to get a way, any way, to make clusters much less pricy. It'd be a decent sized boon to how fun missiles are.
Without the extra launchpads, I think clusters should have doubled ammo cost tho.

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Would allow a lot more creative options to work better.

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I think your second thing could be a cool modification to the grav compensator for APS. The grav compensator seems to tamper with gravity applied on the shell already, so this would work.

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In my opinion those changes to magnets, however, would increase their offense use instead of being used for mines. Basically even more common for bombs, when they're common enough already.

warm topaz
# real falcon I'd love if time was freed up after the japan exposition and release to get a wa...

The intent is to also reduce extra mat cost for both the launchpads and the missiles themselves to be much closer to non-clusters, and not just the volume, but do so without going below normal missiles on ether. This is to make them only slightly (or somewhat) worse in all aspects without making them worse in any aspect than currently. Sensor clusters shouldn't need to be so expensive for what they do just to launch them, and nor should damage payloads.

The sub-muniton modules that determine parent and child projectile for missiles already cost 20% of a module, decrease effectiveness of payload for a given missile length, and add nothing to the missile otherwise.

The only upside to using clusters for all that loss in cost effectiveness, is the inherit potential to use smaller and more maneuverable missiles with less risk of them being destroyed or going after the wrong target, and the extra health the parent missile provides to function as a very durable decoy at the risk of it being destroyed before it can reach the target and release the child projectiles.

uneven inlet
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Some form of active guidance for CRAM mortars could potentially help them a bit
Just making their current homing make use of some detection data from the craft that fired it (even with an accuracy penalty) could make them a little more viable

warm topaz
uneven inlet
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Yes, that's why I said "their current homing"

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The problem with it is that it only works towards where it was aiming when it was fired

uneven inlet
warm topaz
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devs are not going to do that. they may have made that clear at one point even

wintry shell
real falcon
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Smaller missiles do less damage per vol in a burst because they're shorter reload time

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so even without any nerf just clusters would be disadvantaged already

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issue is then people would use the bigger missiles in clusters often, so that'd need a drawback... volume wise? I think that's all it'd need.

uneven inlet
warm topaz
wintry shell
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I asked one dev if it was supposed to be all or nothing or if it's supposed to be a gradual scale with autodetect and they said they'd check so it could just be a bug

uneven inlet
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It shouldn't even just be reliant on autodetect, given that the shells obviously have no detection of their own

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The way I see it, it seems obvious that it should receive at least some influence from normal detection

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After all, even missiles aren't affected by autodetect, so why should CRAM shells, of all things, be affected exclusively by it?

uneven inlet
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Could also add that functionality to the bomb chute, perhaps with greater accuracy/strength (though only on downward trajectories)

fast yoke
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Big brained suggestions in this thread

warm topaz
tacit jewel
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IFF magnets when?

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My dive bomber’s bombs keep on tracking other friendly planes despite them being right next to the target 😭

tiny thistle
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I think increasing the range of mines to 200m and beyond is enough, mines are not missiles so I'd love that it doesn't move too fast until it's near enough with the enemy then it moves fast towards the enemy

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Aka is attracted to bigger stuff and exponential attraction speed the closer it is towards the enemy

tacit jewel
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Magnet range is dependent on the missile size

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Bigger mines have bigger ranges

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I just want that IFF

uneven inlet
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What, you don't like dragging a sack of mines behind you?

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Which reminds me, it was either because of rubber or safety fuses, but you can literally just have them sitting on the surface of your craft

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Huh, maybe that could be used with warp stuff for some weird shenanigans; warping away, but leaving a bunch of mines where you were, with their momentum

warm topaz
uneven inlet
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Would be a very roundabout way to have internal launchers, with no exposed parts

real falcon
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Clusters "internal launcher" isn't really an advantage since the firepower isn't greater than regular

uneven inlet
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In this case, it's just one module (safety fuse), and a warp drive, and you can bury otherwise normal missiles inside your craft

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Almost certainly not practical, but could make for a weird gimmick craft

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Especially if you've got enough regulators to build up several volleys worth before releasing them

fast yoke
lean yew
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#Cool

stark rune
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... magnets are already 200m range

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It depends on the mine size, but Medium or larger mines are 200m and Small mines are fundamentally kind of useless

I've been using Medium mines on one entirely practical bomber since May

stark rune
# warm topaz Some adjustments to make cluster missiles and CRAM mortars more worthwhile, and ...

I have opinions on all of these topics

For cluster missiles, [...]
Honestly I'm not sure the missile compactors are necessary, clusters are already inherently a bit less efficient than just using warheads .

For CRAM/APS mortars, [...].
Please no, different gravity for different shells would be immersion-bending. CRAM mortars are currently usable, but fairly niche.

For magnet mines, increasing the attraction range to 200m,
as stated this is already a thing - indeed it's more than that for large/huge mines.

significantly increasing the speed of travel from magnets (and/or reducing the drag from water while under magnet power),
This would be nice, currently mine homing is more powerful in air than in water.

adding IFF functionality,
This would also be nice, though I doubt it's gonna happen.

and a function that briefly reduces missile speed after impacting water (launched air to sea mines often overshoot targets and continue to travel through water at high speed)
Skill issue, bread aim can mostly solve this and mines are by far best used with bread aim

median fern
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Mines don’t necessarily need IFF, they need to be able to switch targets when a closer vehicle in the area. I’ve got a feeling that mines just go for a single vehicle until either they hit or the vehicle moves out of range. That would explain why they tend to try to hit their own planes instead of the tank they were basically dropped on top of.

grand plover
stark rune
# grand plover huges have 400, huge magnet mines are decent

Huge magnet mines in my experience lack the speed to hit anything underwater in most cases, though they do have a lot of oomph if you hit with them. I've found Larges to be most useful, ideally when several are dropped in a line and the line comes close to or crosses the enemy's path

lean yew
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Calling CRAM Mortars Usable Is Wild. It's Technically True But They Really Are So Awful

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  • CRAM Is Already "Immersion-Bending" Anyway, This Isn't A Sim
stark rune
tiny thistle
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I remember this

stark rune
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... why did it get bumped

wintry shell
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a hopefully simpler way to implement the cluster missile idea: have a "cluster munition rack" that acts like launchpads/gantries but can't fire on its own and is way cheaper. this is similar to the customizer block but re-uses existing launcher logic and pays in volume rather than compactor blocks

kind kelp
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one idea i mentioned once was similar to that but it just used the eixsting gantries, where you basically loaded missiles into the cluster depending on reload
though it might not result in as drastic of a buff as they need

stark rune
uneven inlet
quick oak
narrow idol
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yeah i was gonna make a post of this. it would be a good alternative to crams to have a small mortar/howitzer bc land vehicles usually cant fit a cram, so small indirect weapons would let them attack installations from cover and have a small aps or pac for direct vehicle combat

keen marlin
wild edge
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it would be nice if cluster missiles released payload when destroyed (or moments before being so)