SWTOR Lore Discussion

[west sequoia]

the whole idea of Hord having fought Jedi kinda conflicts with the whole post-HYD thought that the Exiles were out of the picture

and the GHSW being a big shock that "oh this faction of darksiders has been building up in the background uncontested"

[elfin anchor]

the other day i was reminded that somehow Odan Urr was aware of the origins of the Sith Order in tales of the jedi golden age of the sith 0

so before the GHW

Dunno if the idea was to say that the jedi found out the exiles were now ruling a sith empire due to Baron Dreypa's shenanigans (i thought that there were no survivors either from the encounter with dreypa)

[midnight dune]

Whats latest story dlc as of now?

Desperate Defiance? It doesnt have a trailer

But Legacy of the Sith does

[prisma portal]

define DLC

all story content is unlocked by subscribing

but if you mean what I think you mean

then Legacy of the Sith is still the newest

as in

everyone who has been subscribed at any point since Legacy of the Sith released

automatically gets all current story content

since it's technically still part of that expansion

[midnight dune]

Then whats Desperate Defiance?

Smaller dlc?

[prisma portal]

that is a story part of legacy of the sith

Desperate Defiance was update 7.5

the 7 being the Expansion era Legacy of the Sith

and 5 being Desperate Defiance

[unborn brook]

The X.0.0 updates are expansions. The X.X.0 are supposed to be story updates now... But the strikes happened...

[prisma portal]

yea the voice actor strike did immensely delay the story progression

but I believe we're back on track for 7.8 with master's Enigma

which is, again, a continuation of the Legacy of the Sith storyline

[unborn brook]

Should‘t we be getting Dynamic somethings (The story that was meant to ship with Dynamic Encounters) then Master’s Enigma?

[prisma portal]

oh that's true

Galactic Threads will be first

then Master's Enigma

I forgot we're an entire year behind not just half a year

[unborn brook]

“Curse you, Greg the Gaming Industry!!!” Lol

(A “curse you perry the platypus” moment...)

[midnight dune]

Order 66 would fail in the Old Republic era

Jedi would be equivalents of All Jedi Masters compared to Movies Jedi

[west sequoia]

even when galactic threads "catches up" its gonna be two patches behind

and i doubt we'll get a 7.8.2 catching up for 7.8's actual story content

they really should have just kept to "major updates are story content" and stayed on 7.5.x

[midnight dune]

How rare is it for Jedi to infight?

[west sequoia]

fairly rare, about the only time they'll get into scraps with each other is if one side falls to the dark and then arguably they're not really jedi any more

[unborn brook]

Either that or minor ideological differences... Lord Hoth and Valenthyne Farfalla had their fare share of spats on the war table... But they were unified as Jedi...

Example: Lord Hoth argued with the council for fighting capable Jedi, not children. Meanwhile, Master Farfalla politely persuaded the council to send Jedi aid to the Army of Light... At the end of the War... (Not really useful)

[midnight dune]

Okay so why can't the galaxy have 5 minutes of peace?

The second the war between Republic and Empire died down, the Eternal Empire third partied both

[dry snow]

Unfortunately the Eternal Empire still continued to make everyone suffer and not to mention they allow other battles and wars to continue as long as no one challenged them. Despite that they have been evil during and after Valkorian’s fall and others who refused to see the truth that it was their immortal emperor that started it all in the first place and caused all of it to happen and just so his immortality could be sustained and all for his selfish ambitions to control the galaxy.

Why Senya and Koth along with others like them failed to see how evil and corrupt their emperor was especially when Lana and our character told them about him is still puzzling but at least Senya finally admitted that she was wrong about him and that we were right from the beginning.

[midnight dune]

I think Senya while being least fucked up, was still fucked up

She hunted down people for opposing the emperor

And called it justice

[midnight dune]

So Arcann uses the Player to overthrow Valkorion?

He has a scape goat and claim for war

[elfin anchor]

i feel like war with the galaxy was already Valk's objective anyway tbh

[elfin anchor]

thats just her job though isnt it

[midnight dune]

Yeah but dont call it justice just to feel less totalitarian

Didnt Koth desert for being ordered to shoot civilians?

Senya hunted him for it

[void pelican]

Yeah, Koth was like “i thought we were better than this”

And Senya only saw “you deserted, you know the price, face justice”

[midnight dune]

Whats legal and whats right is often different

[void pelican]

Exactly

[midnight dune]

Why Jedi are better moral judges than the Knights of Zakuul

[void pelican]

Because the Jedi aren’t a policing body; the Knights are

[midnight dune]

Didnt many die following the Zakuul invasion?

So how did the Jedi have enough members for Onslaught?

[void pelican]

A good chunk of Jedi went into hiding.

Some walked their own paths, following the Force.

Some ended up with us, in the Alliance.

Some went to Ossus with Gnost-Dural

[midnight dune]

How did the Jedi get along with so many walks of life? Especially sith?

Alliance had many less than legal members

[void pelican]

Prioritization

[midnight dune]

Smugglers, underground spies

[void pelican]

I expect that those Jedi for whom it'd be a real problem tended to end up on Ossus anyway

[midnight dune]

Wait, how many jedi and sith join the Alliance?

Not including the player

[void pelican]

Exact numbers are unclear, but a decent quantity, given that the Alliance gears up to fight a war.

[meager forge]

Perspective matters. From the outside looking in, yes, we know who Valkorian truly is and what his ultimate goals are. For the people of Zakuul? As far as they knew, he was, quite literally, an immortal emperor who took very good care of them. When the person who has ruled over your society for thousands of years with so much benevolence and all of your basic needs being met without any effort on your part, it's easy to see why a vast majority of people like Senya (her marriage aside) worshipped Valkorian and would come down hard on any criticism. Not to mention, Koth defected after Valkorian died and Acrann proved to be the exact opposite of his father.

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/zakuul-society-thrillseeking

[midnight dune]

So Koth also worshiped Valkorion?

[meager forge]

Yes

[void pelican]

Very much so.

Yanno how many times I've wished I could just drop him off on Ziost and be like "Here's your Emperor's generosity, go, live off of that, or accept that he's the monster I've been telling you he is"

[midnight dune]

Also another question, did Valkorion genuinely not see the player about to kill him or let him?

[void pelican]

He let it happen. Both paths led to him in our head, which was his gameplan.

Let his kids fuck it up, guide us to take the throne, become us.

[meager forge]

Valkorian lets the player kill him so he can take over and begin the process of hollowing out your character's body for himself.

[midnight dune]

So a Light Side Player resists Valkorion?

[void pelican]

Everyone resists him, ultimately.

But in terms of the KotFE 1-9 "accept his power," yes

[meager forge]

Whether you choose to resist him or not, it doesn't change his plan of taking your character's body over.

[midnight dune]

But the real victory is not falling into same pitfall Arcann did

The power of an empire gets sanest of men drunk

[meager forge]

The real victory is killing his original body and ending the ritual he uses to effectively reincarnate.

[midnight dune]

How many deaths does Valkorion have?

[void pelican]

nah, see, the Tenebrae we knew was dead when we annihilated him in our mind and, simultaneously, Kira and Scourge annihilated his original body/soul anchor

[midnight dune]

I count 4 or 5

[void pelican]

the physical backup embedded in the soul anchor wasn't really him by this point

or, uh, it was a different him

[prisma portal]

it was an outdated backup

[midnight dune]

Tenebrae was terrified of death

[meager forge]

Most Sith are.

[midnight dune]

It horrified him

[meager forge]

That's why there's a recurring theme of Sith chasing immortality.

[midnight dune]

Thats why most sith die before 40

Chasing immortality, they die

Greek comedy type irony

[meager forge]

You could argue every Sith hopes to be the one that's the exception.

[midnight dune]

Darth Marr didn't chase immortality

[void pelican]

Marr's immortality was what he did for the Empire

[midnight dune]

He dies on his feet rather than begging on his knees

Many sith fail to do so

So if the Jedi went into hiding

How did the Sith do?

Also many during Onslaught

Sith are too proud to hide

I know 1 of the original Dark Council survived

[meager forge]

It's not so much that as the Sith Empire being an empire ruled and governed by Sith whereas the Jedi Order has a close partnership with the Republic, but aren't in any government positions. Sith go away and so does the Empire. The Jedi go away and the Republic keeps on going.

[midnight dune]

Hmm, what does Zakuul need tribute for?

[void pelican]

two, actually

[midnight dune]

Who?

[void pelican]

Acina and Vowrawn

[midnight dune]

So from 12, Zakuul killed 10?

Or was Dark Council 13 seats?

[void pelican]

well, Nox went missing or became the Outlander, so that's only nine that were 100% definitely killed

[midnight dune]

Korriban got sacked no?

[void pelican]

Yeah

[midnight dune]

Same for Tython?

Jedi Temple and all

[void pelican]

Not sure, actually

[midnight dune]

might be a smaller target since most of Tython is wild life

[elfin anchor]

there are others

and idk if some went rogue along the way, ravage in nathema seems quite pissed off people went against the emperor so you'd think he must have thrown a hissy fit around the time of SoR?

[dry snow]

Yeah and being hypocritical about Koth leaving the Eternal Empire when she herself also became a traitor later on.

[dry snow]

Indeed

[elfin anchor]

most of korriban is a dead world

[dry snow]

There were a few Jedi survivors that went into hiding or others during and after the war.

[elfin anchor]

only the valley of the dark lords, the sith academy and dreshdae if it even exists are the locations that more or less matter

[dry snow]

Both Jedi Under Siege and Onslaught provided more details about the Jedi order’s status and how they are rebuilding.

Anyone of my characters light or dark will never bow to a snake and hypocrite like the sith emperor Tenebrae the dark lord of many faces because after all he is the most lying, manipulative and arrogant power hungry sith my characters have known and hated especially when they are either my Jedi knight or Sith warrior.

The Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior know the Sith Emperor all to well and what he really was.

[west sequoia]

the only member of the Dark Council that we can conclusively say was killed by Zakuul is Marr

the known Council immediately prior to Zakuul's invasion is Kallig of Ancient Knowledge, Marr of Defense of the Empire, Ravage of Expansion and Diplomacy, Mortis of Laws and Justice, Rictus of Mysteries, Vowrawn of Production and Logistics, Aruk of Philosophy and Acina of Technology

Rictus and Aruk continue to be Sirs Not Appearing In This Game, and I guess I'll throw in Jadus as another confirmed survivor but that's more of a technicality

[midnight dune]

What do you mean that the Empire has a minister of Technology?

The Empire has done squat to field Isotope-5 into ships after a whole ass campaign

[west sequoia]

thats what the Spheres of Influence were called

they're named differently now that its consolidated to 5 seats

[midnight dune]

So Sith infighting prevented the technology from being fielded?

[west sequoia]

no

Marr was mainly the one in charge of distributing isotope-5 and he had very conservative ideas about where it would go, I think it's a codex entry somewhere that said its first utilization was in defensive measures

or maybe its one of the forged alliances post-mission NPC mails

[void pelican]

Defensive stuff, retrofitting ships' engines

using it for a long war, not a decisive one

[west sequoia]

iirc during Makeb he even calls iso-5 vital to the Empire's energy independence and its survival into the future

[dry snow]

Darth Marr was one of the few who had my characters respect.

[wheat mountain]

Alilia in the Smuggler story would have made a decent companion.
/random thought

[midnight dune]

So Arcann is painting the Outlander as a terrorist?

They fear the player for first half

[midnight dune]

Did Arcann's brother get written out of the story after the trailers dropped?

From the trailers he was supposed to be alive well into the Zakuul invasion

Also Valkorion was supposed to stay "alive"

I think the trailers were an early draft of KOTFE and KOTE storyline

[west sequoia]

no

the trailer happens before KotFE

Thexan is dead

[midnight dune]

Then how the fuck is Zakuul invading Korriban with both brothers alive?

[west sequoia]

because Thexan dies at the end of the trailer

the first chapter of KotFE is the Imperial response to being initially attacked by Zakuul

[midnight dune]

So the invasion has already started by the time Outlander and Marr were captured?

Then that means Thexan has been dead for only a few days

Arcann is still grieving

[meager forge]

You seem to have a lot of questions about the order of events and the various states of the galaxy at each of them. I think this might be helpful to you: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UPZAIR6Krc8UdfUBKf9NfiLg9eokKbfQDdnbPfyrM9I/edit?pli=1&tab=t.0

[midnight dune]

I don't want to read a excell spread sheet

[meager forge]

They're just bullet points, but fair enough.

[midnight dune]

Wait, I re-watched Kotfe and Lana has less and less screen time past chapter 3. When was she a major character?

Shadow of Revan?

[unborn brook]

The Eternal raids (with Thexan) happened before Zakuul’s invasion.

Testing Republic and Imperial strengths

[midnight dune]

Then why just nuke them with the Eternal Fleet?

I think there was little ground combat in the actual invasion

[elfin anchor]

those battles are mentioned in the beginning btw

you can ask arcann whats up with that when you first meet him

and he says they were just testing the galactic powers

[elfin anchor]

we dont know why ground combat happened in those battles tbh, we barely know anything about them actuallu

[midnight dune]

So no one was worried that an unknown faction was killing force users left and right?

[elfin anchor]

No one knew who was doing that i think, but people did know someone was killing their force users and what not

tbh having them attack korriban was kinda bullshit

[midnight dune]

You are told through hear say

[elfin anchor]

should have attacked isolated outposts

[midnight dune]

Wait, are Zakuul's pilots mechanical?

You would need biological pilots

[elfin anchor]

yes

[midnight dune]

Why mechanise 99% of your force?

[elfin anchor]

grievous' flagship had almost its entire crew full of droids

with a few neimodians here and there ig

[elfin anchor]

dont think its explained

some of their ships have humans btw

[midnight dune]

Maybe Zakuulians were that lazy

[elfin anchor]

yeah

i guess they really wanted to avoid drafting citizens

[midnight dune]

Cant be assed to leave their houses so still need an armed force

[coarse lintel]

Valk wanted to make Zakuul a utopia, so basically automated most of things.

[midnight dune]

Clearly not out of the kindness of his heart

[coarse lintel]

Plus, droids don't question morally reprehensible orders.

[elfin anchor]

makes you wonder what happened to zakuul's droid factories you'd think those would easily outproduce Balmorra's which seems to be the top droid producer in the galaxy

[midnight dune]

Cant program empathy

[midnight dune]

They produce only Skytroopers and what the government needs

Not for profit like Balmora

[elfin anchor]

you dont get what im saying, im saying that such a huge droid factory was never even mentioned after the events of the expansions

[midnight dune]

Ohh

[elfin anchor]

like you'd think those factories would be a huge deal

[midnight dune]

Writers forgor

[coarse lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/sweep-sweep-under-rug-rug-cleaning-carpet-gif-15914451

[midnight dune]

My one issue with Star Wars worldbuilding is the infinite resources

A quadrilion super weapons that can level planets

[coarse lintel]

Star Wars worldbuilding serves the plot.

Only us nerds care about the nitty gritty.

[midnight dune]

Aparentely you can just dig out of the ground unobtainium and make a starship

[elfin anchor]

yeah its weird

i also just struggle really picturing the sith empire as a rival to the republic in terms of industry

look at their capital

[midnight dune]

The biggest offender in the Death Star

[midnight dune]

Imperial capital is 3 blocks on a jungle world

[coarse lintel]

Technically, the galaxy contains a shitload of resources where you can mine entire asteroid fields or uninhabitable mineral rich planets, so the resources issue doesn't concern me much.

[midnight dune]

Republican capital is a hive world

[elfin anchor]

the industry of the core worlds alone should be insane

[midnight dune]

Trillions of people is surprisingly least insane resource

[elfin anchor]

most of the worlds in the core worlds are rich and super industrialized

[coarse lintel]

An ecumenopolis like Coruscant also would be near impossible to exist, as well. Heat generation would burn the planet.

That's why it's science fantasy/space opera.

[elfin anchor]

sith worlds are nothing in comparasion

[midnight dune]

Also it just builds on top of itself

[elfin anchor]

should have just said that the sith took an ecumenopolis like Eriadu during their invasion tbh

[midnight dune]

Actual world surface is 1000 floors down

[coarse lintel]

Yup.

[midnight dune]

Oh and people get born in the lower levels, live and die thinking the sun is a myth

Thats Cyberpunk levels of grim

What form of Coruscanti police exists there has to be covered head to toe and have heavy voice scramblers so that cops dont get hanged by street poles

Not even the Sith weaponise poverty like the Senate does

[coarse lintel]

I mean, they do.

Gestures to the slave caste.

[elfin anchor]

yeah lol

[midnight dune]

There are poor people in the empire? Oh

I mean

[coarse lintel]

Tons of poor people in the Empire.

[midnight dune]

Its hard to pick good guys in Star Wara

[elfin anchor]

literally a key part of their ecnonomy too

[narrow mulch]

@elfin anchor has become a Rising Star of the Sith Empire for reaching rank 5.

[midnight dune]

Both Empire and Republic use slaves

[coarse lintel]

Well, the fascists tend to be pretty big targets.

[midnight dune]

Huh?

[elfin anchor]

the satanic wizards

[midnight dune]

Now lets think pragmatically

Where would you live as an average smuck?

A republic world or empire world?

[elfin anchor]

republic world no doubt

[coarse lintel]

Republic, easily.

[midnight dune]

Republic still has severe crime issue

[coarse lintel]

As if the Empire doesn't? lol

[midnight dune]

Yeah but if the Republic doesnt shake you for money, Sun Shaggers will

[elfin anchor]

i'd rather deal with that than with being under a force using overlord who literally feeds on pain

[coarse lintel]

S'why I wouldn't live one one of the named planets.

[coarse lintel]

Or have their acolytes hunt you for sport.

[midnight dune]

I remmebered sith do that

[elfin anchor]

or their mutated beasts

[midnight dune]

They cant escape the murder hobo acusations

[coarse lintel]

They don't try.

[elfin anchor]

like i get that the republic is also flawed but realistically, the sith are genuinely as evil as it gets

[midnight dune]

I just noticed

[coarse lintel]

Flawed democracy is better than a fascist dictatorship.

[midnight dune]

The Sith that join the Alliance dont look like they snort moonsugar or do deathsticks

Pale skin, bloodshot eyes

Less warcrimey?

Or its a message that the more sane sith survived the Zakuul invasion

[coarse lintel]

Well, less down the path of the dark side you are, the more likely you are to see the benefit of working with other people instead of murdering them.

[elfin anchor]

i think its just pragmatic sith joining the alliance. Marr was pragmatic in SoR but he was still undoubtably evil for example

[midnight dune]

didnt he torture people for fun?

[midnight dune]

what the fuck

imperials weaponised speciesm

got chemical agents that go only after specific sentient species

[void pelican]

We saw one of them, but also factory output seems to be distributed

Every Zakuulan installation over a certain size can make Skytroopers

Including their warships and police stations

Like, there was one right by our prison in KotFE 3, that kinda implies they’re pretty darn ubiquitous if it was that easy to happen upon one

And yeah, we saw a big factory on Darvannis

[unborn brook]

Our “prison” was Arcaan’s vault... According to Lana, I think

[midnight dune]

So to redeem Arcann, you have to beat the shit out of him?

Jedi: Punches Arcann "Embrace the Lightside!"

[subtle salmon]

Kind of

[midnight dune]

You can say, we beat the devil out of him

[subtle salmon]

Yep

[unborn brook]

Yeah... Beat him up hard enough for the Voss to siphen the bad away...

[bold tapir]

Jedi Knight

sith lord

"redeemed"

this is how Revan's character arc went, right? please correct me if i'm wrong

[dry snow]

Well technically he became whole again when he reunited his two half’s.

[midnight dune]

How many imperials we have as companions on Rep side?

Kira is technically a Imperial but lost the accent on Nar Shadaa

[elfin anchor]

its not you showed him with the light side robes before becoming a sith lord

Jedi Knight -> Sith Lord -> KotoR Revan -> Novel Revan -> Foundry Revan -> SoR Revan

[bold tapir]

i'm confused as to what you're saying...?

[bold tapir]

is this not the order of the images i sent?

[elfin anchor]

im saying that this revan came after sith lord revan

[bold tapir]

ohh i see i see

[elfin anchor]

the picture at least, because before becoming a ith lord revan didnt wear those robes

[bold tapir]

so this is revan before becoming a sith lord right? then when does the white robes come in

[elfin anchor]

yes

[elfin anchor]

you can get those robes at the end of KotoR 1, not even sure if those robes are even canon tbh but timeline wise the only version of revan which used them is KotoR revan

[bold tapir]

that makes sense

thank you carnor jax

[elfin anchor]

lol

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11123/111236047/5561521-2641788995-dead%2B.jpg

only somewhat canon depiction of revan during kotor (and its from a vision)

[bold tapir]

so then the correct order would be
Jedi Knight (the comic picture) to
Sith Lord (Darth Revan) to
Redeemed (SoR)?

[elfin anchor]

yes

[bold tapir]

much appreciated

[west sequoia]

the actually redeemed revan is right at the end of SoR and in Echoes

[bold tapir]

ooh interesting

care to provide some images?

[west sequoia]

I'll see what I have either way, but the gist is the spirit version of him at the very end of SoR is the version of him that's finally let go of his ego, he's willing to allow someone else to shoulder the burden of leading the fight against Vitiate but it also doesnt mean he's giving up, because as Echoes clearly shows he's still in the fight as much as he can be

its more of a philosophical distinction than a visual one, iirc his SoR end spirit version uses his Foundry appearance and his Echoes version uses his SoR appearance

these are screencaps from ingame dialogue cutscenes so they've got subtitles in them, do you want them included to give a bit more context as to which point in his very long life they're at, or would the background (yavin temple, dreamscape) be good enough?

[bold tapir]

background would be enough

i'm making a collage so something like his full body appearance or even only his face will do great

[bold tapir]

yea that bottom picture is what i've been searching for

thank you very much!

Jedi Knight → Sith Lord → "Redeemed"

[elfin anchor]

ulic and revan especially are quite similar early on

[jovial ether]

In actual KOTOR, that wasn't actually what he looked like when fighting Malak. This vision was just a vision to show Quel Droma what Revan will be known for someday

[elfin anchor]

its one of the only pictures we have of revan in kotor

i wont even count the ones from the swtor lore videos

cause those have bastila in the final boss fight

[jovial ether]

That is true. This was before Revan had an established canon face

[elfin anchor]

aiding revan

yea

[jovial ether]

Indeed. My headcanon is all of the art featured in the SWTOR lore videos is actual art in-universe to depict characters, places, and events in history. The historians probably made art of Bastila being with Revan when confronting Malak on the Star Forge probably because historians started getting it wrong or they don't remember all of the details.

[elfin anchor]

yeah thats my headcanon too

the art of ulic vs exar

that battle didnt happen like they didnt fight in some random street with their armies right behind them while it was raining

exar just broke into the tetan royal palace where ulic was

and dueled him

in broad daylight

[jovial ether]

Yeah. I mean, in real life, we have art depictions on historical events, and some of the artwork used to depict those historical events can be mixing the details up or getting it wrong, so why not for Star Wars too?

Given Gnost-Dural is a historian, my guess is he used historical artwork that depicted past events for his datacron history lore.

[elfin anchor]

yeah

[midnight dune]

Does it apply to the Jedi? I mean the theory that ancient Sith were more powerful than SWTOR Sith

Generally Jedi dont seek to become gods

[unborn brook]

I’d argue, yeah... The ancient Jedi had to contend with the Ancient Sith... At least in the Great Hyperspace war... (I think that was the Naga Sadow war)

But there is an argument they didn’t... I mean look at the Clone Wars era, they were training for another New Sith War-style conflict...

[midnight dune]

Yes but Sith in their chase for godhood became monsters

I wonder what actually happened to the first Sith

Records stop after they arrive on Korriban

[unborn brook]

You mean the first Lords of the Sith, founders of the Sith Order, right? (To be technical, because the word Sith means the species, their brutal culture, or the religious order made by their colonizers, the 12 Exiles)

[midnight dune]

The 5 dark jedi that got exiled, founders of Sith Cult

I think its safe to call them the first Sith

[unborn brook]

The 12 exiles, only 5 were named...

[midnight dune]

Ah apologies

The first 12 sith

Hmm, for such a impactful cult

They lasted way shorter than the Jedi

Jedi lasted without being disbanded from 25000 BBY to 19 BBY

Sith lasted from 5000 bby to 1024 bby

[unborn brook]

Umm... KOTOR 2 the Jedi were sort of in a slump, the First Jedi Purge...

[midnight dune]

First Jedi Purge?

Ah I see it now 3954-3951 bby

[unborn brook]

Yeah, Nihilus and Sion were attacking Jedi...

Nihilus attacked a Jedi meeting held on the Miraluka colony world causing the remaining Jedi to hide...

That purge didn’t help the fact that they were still regrouping after the Jedi Civil War...

[midnight dune]

Wookiepedia says that beating the Sith took everything

Jedi nearly went extinct

[unborn brook]

Yeah, because Meetra Surik reluctantly retook the mantle of Jedi... The surviving Masters from the Dantooine Enclave Council/Jedi Council cowered (Well stubborn Vrook didn’t, he subtily helped the Dantooine settlers) until she showed up...

[midnight dune]

So there is a THIRD Jedi Purge

Searching Wookiepedia I found it

130-138 aby

[unborn brook]

Oh yeah, Darth Krayt’s...

[midnight dune]

I dont think either side will stay dead after the movies

[unborn brook]

Too profitable to kill off...

[midnight dune]

Jedi either go in hiding or the Sith find some Sith Holocron

[midnight dune]

But there is an end to the timeline, cant find it

[unborn brook]

Sith Knowledge is the best way a Sith splinter order/revival can exist...

[midnight dune]

Wasnt there a Sith who legit didnt do any war crimes?

Like noteworthy not a shit person

[unborn brook]

Can’t be a Sith without a sprinkle of war crimes... Lol

On a more comedic note, with the Spheres of Biotic Science and the Sphere of Technology... The Empire’s scientific community must be wild...

[midnight dune]

Isnt it just Sith Magic?

Being a Goth Wizard seems to not include sciences as well

[unborn brook]

No, I mean the genuine scientific advancements...

Sith magic and such are exclusively Sith stuff... I’m talking about the science the average Imperial might do...

[midnight dune]

Thats bad for the scientist's health

Sith might kill the only nuclear physician in the sector for being bored

[unborn brook]

I mean what would the Imperial scientific ethics be? And how much of that is suggestion and how much of it is complete taboo?

Would you get in trouble for stealing a peer's scientific paper? Or would you tattle to your buddy Darth to punish your academic rival?

[midnight dune]

I think if we are to entertain it. Maybe human experiments?

Humans arent exactly facing extinction

Or sentients

[unborn brook]

More like alien experimentation... (Human experimentation might be a tad off-putting to the more tame scientists)

[midnight dune]

Sentients

Thats Star Wars term for aliens that can speak basic

[unborn brook]

Sentient and non-sentient... Why not make drones of Akk dogs run rabid and attack settlers of a set planet?

[midnight dune]

Wait

Why cant the empire practice democracy?

The Republic doesnt really vote the Senate, the politicians do

[unborn brook]

Umm... Because if you give the Empire Democracy the Emperor won’t have his yummy galactic-spanning meal... Lol

[midnight dune]

So maybe have the Empire vote at planetary level?

[midnight dune]

Without Tenebrae's plan for godhood

Lets say its an empire post Emperor

We have mortal emperors now

Why not add democracy to some degree?

[unborn brook]

Probably some worlds might practice local democratic elections, especially recently claimed territories... And if they play by the Empire’s rules... But once they rebel, the local democracy ends...

[midnight dune]

I find it really hard to support the Empire

Need to close both eyes and tilt my head

[unborn brook]

Either rebellion or a Darth having a hissy fit could end a local democracy......

[midnight dune]

For the Empire to look like a good option

If you arent a human, military able and or in best scenario, a Sith that passes the acadamy. You wont get far

[elfin anchor]

its really wild

swtor seems to have had some vague story in mind

looks like they had a story in mind for the exiles and thats also ignoring the implication from KotoR 1 that Ajunta Pall and his guys may or may have not have used the star forge

[elfin anchor]

one can make the case that despite all the wars they lost the Sith Order itself always found a way to survive

[elfin anchor]

and thats also ignoring the great schisms (not just the one that created the exiles)

and while these arent great schisms you do see many jedi from time to time leave the order, defy the order or just plainly fall to the dark side (Brotherhood of the Sith recruits, Revanchists who defied the order, the Jedi that joined dooku during the clone wars or the group of fallen jedi from vima da boda's backstory to name some quick examples)

[elfin anchor]

well the species restrinction got mostly removed

[midnight dune]

Sith Empire runs on fear, infighting and violence

Who is actually loyal outside the Sith?

[unborn brook]

Imperial idealists who believe in Sith supremacy... They tend to be disillusioned when serving under a particularly nasty Darth throws a hissy fit...

[bright phoenix]

Hello chat. Please over-analyze and lose your minds over the Sith Inquisitor Rishi class story mission from over a decade ago.

Recap:

Sith researcher builds a deep space communications array to monitor, to listen, to try and contact the inhabitants of the Rishi Maze
Receives back signals and messages in an ancient language contemptuous of translation, containing Sith, Rakata and Gree words
Messages contain instructions for improving and modifying the communications array, which the researcher carefully tries to follow.
Researcher isn't even sure what new functions the machines now possess--only that the technology would grant a "great boon".
Machine goes silent for some years with its last messages being a request for an individual that has been "twice transmuted and reborn to the Mother".
Sith Inquisitor (player character) seems to fit the bill and is thus invited to comes along to try it out. The player discusses the project with the researcher and they speculate that the recipient on the other end might be some kind of off-shoot species or an artificial intelligence (e.g maybe a lost Rakata drone in deep space). The player then heads out to look at the array and interacts with it four times.

Each interaction with different parts of the modified array results in the player character being paralyzed and suspended in mid-air, surrounded by electricity, with a dark robotic voice saying the following:

1. "Genetic flux analyzed. The tesseract is fear. Subject confirmed. The Dark Lord's lifespan increases by one solar cycle."
2. "Genetic decay analyzed. Redeem or destroy! Subject identified. The Dark Lord's lifespan increases by one solar cycle."
3. "Mother's mark analyzed. Someone must be sacrificed. Subject identified. The Dark Lord's lifespan increases by one solar cycle."
4. "Life-death balance recorded. Beware his desires! Subject identified. The Dark Lord's lifespan increases by one solar cycle."

[bright phoenix]

Whose desire? Who is the Dark Lord? Clearly it's a he. Let's be real, it's probably not you. The Sith Inquisitor was probably decreasing their own lifespan 💀

[bright phoenix]

audio:

https://youtu.be/BLejbx8jndE?t=551

[west sequoia]

you know, to an extent the rest of the class missions are rounding off a plot thread that was unresolved in the base game, whereas the inq one just goes in a more or less unexpected direction

i think there's also snippets of dialogue elsewhere that the rishi maze has the reputation of being almost inhospitable, most of the people that go there dont return

or maybe its a codex entry

[west sequoia]

honestly i'd never thought about it being something else that's leeching your life but that'd be a really interesting twist, could even be a later hook for a main story enemy

[void pelican]

I figured it was a “nobody’s found a stable hyperroute” problem

[bitter cedar]

The reference to a tesseract brings to mind the Gree's love for shapes. I wonder if "His desires" is referring to the inquisitor's ancestor/first ghost? Also might be significant to note that the dread masters also engaged in a combination of sith, rakata, and gree tech. "His desires" could also refer to Zildrog?

If I recall correctly, the Silencer fleet also went missing in the Rishi Maze?

[bright phoenix]

LONG-DISTANCE ESSENCE TRANSFER

[bright phoenix]

The idea of turning life Force into a signal helps provide early context for the signal tower "Tributary" infrastructure on Iokath (read: Life force tribute to Zildrog; an esoteric follow-up to the earlier tribute the core worlds paid to Zakuul)

[bright phoenix]

honestly no idea who the dark lord is. At the time of Shadow of Revan, the only enemy on the horizon would have been Vitiate, but I don't think he himself would necessarily be the dark lord. I think it could be someone that might not even be alive, and all that's left are his automated systems.

[west sequoia]

the Silencer fleet didn't go missing, it was intentionally hidden from Zakuul and taken out of hiding once Zakuul was dealt with

random thought do sith use square holocrons that often, or more typically pyramidal ones?

[bright phoenix]

BELIEVE IT: there's a hypothetical version of Zakuul somewhere in Valkorion's imagination where he has infrastructure set up to passively leech off his citizens. Had the empire of Zakuul taken over the galaxy, then the entire galaxy would have paid life force tribute to Valkorion, slowly, non-violently, peacefully.

[west sequoia]

a "tesseract of fear" could be a dark-side square-faced holocron, with the 'extra' dimensions being the intelligence/personality stored within

or i guess just one extra dimension because cube -> tesseract is only one dimensional difference

[bright phoenix]

you know

it could be metaphorical usage

[west sequoia]

I don't think Kallig's spirit could reach that far, iirc he was killed on Kaas which is why his spirit inhabits the Dark Temple and while he can project himself further as he does in the story, it requires incredible effort and energy on his part

[bitter cedar]

Lines up with the “sacrifice” wordage, and the voice if i recall, does sound like zildrog somewhat .

[bright phoenix]

The first two bits in each sentence have to be referring to the Sith Inquisitor. The usage of the word "tesseract "is just referring to your Force alignment/emotions as a higher-order construct. "Beware his desires" has to refer to Kallig just based on the fact that it's the same line regardless of whether the PC is male or female. So it almost seems like the machine is actually warning the recipient, not you. The mother's mark is self-explanatory. I think that solves that part.

[bright phoenix]

think you were right

[bright phoenix]

the deep voice does have a zildrog vibe but it's not necessarily related even if the concept is similar

but if an ancient dark lord somewhere was pulling shit like this it makes zildrog more approachable and just gives more context to the signal towers on Iokath

[bitter cedar]

The same way Zakuul knights allegedly strengthen their bond with the force , through a “transactional” method, that more loyalty to their god(s) is rewarded with a stronger connection to the force.

[bright phoenix]

maybe they could be related in some way, maybe the research for this kind of essence transfer all has a shared origin

maybe it's an abandoned prototype

It recognized the mothers mark so it is probably Rakata

[bitter cedar]

So, iokath has a diamond shape on one side of the construct. Additionally, the idea was thrown out by charles boyd that the iokath couldve hypothetically/possibly warred with the gree in ancient times . I wonder if Iokath has any sort of signal transmission to the rishi maze?

I would love an expansion with a similar set up to Onslaught, where we refuel at a couple planets along the way in the rishi maze, and end up at a flashpoint/open world similar to the corellia flashpoint.

[bright phoenix]

I think that part was just Satele saying they become stronger than the sum of their parts by uniting under one will

[bitter cedar]

Speaking of research, the voss flashpoint also comes to mind. I wonder if the spirit realm, or the fp’s final boss’s connection to that realm, piqued the curiosity of this researcher.

[west sequoia]

personally i cant really take anything regarding the knight's philosophies seriously because they're such a bunch of jobbers

[bright phoenix]

I can't take them seriously because the game gives them stupid skintight pants instead of the cool baggy trousers in the trailers

[bitter cedar]

That makes sense, tho I interpreted it on an individual level, the same way satele/marr describe the sith enslave the force, and the jedi ally with it, zakuulans exchange it . (Funny that the Exchange gang currently had ties to Zakuul)

[bright phoenix]

anyway

as for the array

for now I'm gonna go with the explanation that we were talking to an AI construct operating on its own that thinks it's still serving some Dark Lord who doesn't exist anymore or has found greener pastures elsewhere

so all the life force probably got sent nowhere

[unborn brook]

Lord Drog of Zil, darkener of worlds, was seeded in the Inquisitor Rishi story?!!

[bright phoenix]

force turned into signal is first contextualized in inq rishi story afaik

[unborn brook]

Zildrog did “darken” a world... The same time he deafened that world...

[bitter cedar]

If it was sent somewhere, to a receiver with no host, I wonder if the force energy would dissipate into any living creatures nearby, or even into the AI itself? I keep thinking that the question Leeha Narezz asks about if a droid could commune with the force, is begging to be answered. (I suppose this may be retreading grounds we've already covered with Zildrog and the force)

I wonder if Zildrog is supposed to be like a foil to the mother machine?

[midnight dune]

What is Emperor's Wrath's fate post game?

Sith are known to die before they hit 40

[elfin anchor]

no one knows what happened to any of the class characters that didnt become the outlander

they just kinda go missing

[elfin anchor]

its answered in star wars lore already, she is right

[void pelican]

Either they became the Outlander (second-most-likely to after Hero of Tython), or they went missing and/or died during the five years vs Zakuul

[midnight dune]

So Hero of Tython and Emperor's Wrath are most "likely" to survive Zakuul's invasion?

[void pelican]

No

Most likely to be the Outlander

[midnight dune]

Ah

[void pelican]

Other than Hero of Tython, the second Wrath is the only player character that Tenebrae could reasonably be that interested in

[midnight dune]

What are the chances that the Jedi are keeping tabs on Emperor's Wrath?

Like a FBI file

[void pelican]

Relatively low — they’re not that subtle. There’s probably an SIS dossier

[narrow mulch]

@void pelican has become a Rising Star of the Neutral faction for reaching rank 5.

[midnight dune]

SIS: "We got this Sith who killed scores of people"

[void pelican]

“Yeah but they’re one of the reasonable ones, like Marr”

[midnight dune]

Maybe how Theron Shan found the Emperor's Wrath?

Or was that through Lana?

[void pelican]

Theron and Lana were both hunting the Revanite conspirators. It’s likely both had a couple people tagging along. Then, of course, they met up and compared notes.

[midnight dune]

Wait, did the game forget it's own plot?

Imperial characters can deadass join the Revanites on Dromund Kaas

[void pelican]

Different deal

Those Revanites were a kinda chill mystery cult

they reworked themselves when the fake Revan showed up

[midnight dune]

Real one is the one in SoR?

At least his dark side

Its long time since I played Shadow of Revan

[unborn brook]

No, the game explained it away... The cult reorganized and your membership no longer qualified...

(Especially, if you choose the Dark Side ending of that questline)

[elfin anchor]

i can see a case being made for the inquisitor cause of their body thats altered by the mother machine which grants the inquisitor basiclaly immunity to dark side degeneration (a problem that the likes of palpatine struggled to deal with).

the only reason i think either the consular or the knight are more likely is because i just dont see a world in which the jedi dont send any of their top guys to help marr

and the HoT, if anything, seems like the perfect choice

i just like to imagine that the HoT became the outlander and the other player characters died offscreen

[west sequoia]

no, its just that its like 5 years between the DK planet story and forged alliances, Lana even points this out if you've done that storyline before

[void pelican]

Oh, personally I cast all the SWTOR appearances as fake, but in a provable sense SoR revan was the fake

[west sequoia]

except he wasnt

bro got his entire psyche split

three hundred years of torture does not go well for anyone

[unborn brook]

He was split long before his imprisonment... Revan Post-KOTOR was always two Revans in a trenchcoat... Lol

[void pelican]

That’s what I mean

[elfin anchor]

So, taking every retcon into account, what was Revan's original plan

Like, according to him in the foundry, to wotc rpg guides and to that one promotional site (chronicles of the old republic) revan, during the mandalorian wars, studied sith occultism from malachor and korriban

in the foundry he basically says that he found clues to vitiate's sith in those two worlds

in chronicles of the old republic, revan was using sith assassins secretly trained at malachor before the war ended. Its even stated that he planned the battle of malachor years in advance

In KotoR 2 many characters speculate that revan used malachor to turn jedi to the dark side and that the battle of malachor was just him cleaning house and killing off those who werent 100% loyal to him.

Think that game also implied he was experimenting on Meetra in a way cause of her force bond ability so her becoming a Force wound could have been intentional? Or am I misremembering that part

In KotoR 1 its said that revan, after the battle of malachor, took a small fleet with him and pursued some mandos into the unknown regions then came back with his invasion force

[subtle salmon]

I feel was so long even Revan forgotten his original plan

[elfin anchor]

then the revan novel comes along and has mandalore the ultimate, after being fatally injured by revan during the battle of malachor, reveal that he helped a red skinned sith (who had been mind tricking mandalore all this time) find the remains of a so called Lord Dramath (dramath ii, vitiate's brother) in rekkiad. Then from Rekkiad, Revan found Nathema and from Nathema he found Dromund kaas. He and Malak would infiltrate Dromund Kaas, but in reality they were being lured towards the sith emperor where they get instantly mind r*ped and they then have their memories of their stay in dromund kaas erased, and are tasked with finding the star forge (which, btw, revan had already found a star map during the mandalorian wars according to KotoR 1, I think it was the kashyyyk one) and tasked with invading the republic.

the things that dont quite make sense to me

1. Why was Revan killing off people not 100% loyal to him? Was he planning on attacking The Republic (like how KotoR 2 seems to speculate) back then? Or was he planning on attacking the hidden sith empire?
2. Was Meetra deliberately tasked with the activation of the mass shadow generator because it would turn her into a force wound? Then again, in KotoR 2 we do see that Force Wounds seem to make you immune to other force wounds and invulnerable kinda to force drain? But then, why did he dismiss Meetra after Malachor. Remember characters in kotor 2 speculated revan allowed meetra to go back to coruscant to show the jedi how lame they were basically. Like, to intimidate them. Or are we to assume he did this after being mind tricked by Vitiate?
3. When did he take the fleet mentioned in KotoR 1 to the unknown regions?
   Are we to assume the fleet was composed of people loyal to him (hence why he was purging people at malachor)? Are we to assume that these guys went to Sith Space to perhaps fight Vitiate's sith? I dont think we really know what exactly happened in dromund kaas only that malak and revan briefly infiltrated that place with the intention to kill Vitiate. Perhaps this fleet was there? Maybe tasked with destroying the Sith's fleet? Or was this fleet just guys loyal to revan that helped revan merely find the star forge?

[winter trellis]

Well, he only found out about the sith from mandalore and the war was making him go down a dark path so he was presumably converting folk for his own ends

[elfin anchor]

the way im thinking it is that Revan found out about a hidden sith empire before mandalore (as he does say so in The Foundry and thats what was the original idea anyway). Mandalore's revelation only would have confirmed Revan's suspicions about Sith purebloods still being around and he'd only find Dromund Kaas after Mandalore's revelation (Rekkiad-->Nathema-->Dromund Kaas seems to have been Revan's journey?)

Im thinking the only retcon that could explain this mess is to say that revan always wanted to attack the republic first but he must have found something at Dromund Kaas which forced him to try to assassinate vitiate. Thats the only way i can somewhat think of connecting these different narratives

[rocky bear]

I could be looking at this wrong, but honestly going through Imperial Illum again, the more I realized that Darth Malgus was actually right

[subtle salmon]

Yea

[west sequoia]

he raises a bunch of very valid criticisms of the empire's top-level behaviour and then throws it all away for a usurper bid

[subtle salmon]

Honestly I just headcanon my Imp toons just following orders and some believe there are better ways to improve the Empire then starting a coup

[elfin anchor]

marr agreed with him in the novel Annihilation

he just disliked the fact that Malgus actually tried a coup

[west sequoia]

yeah probably because a pretty significant chunk of the dark council got merked by the republic and malgus could have easily slid in as a reformist

"fuck it, guess its all up to me to save the empire now"

[elfin anchor]

yeah, i think the actual seat in the council malgus himself had was previously held by like 3 different people through the entire game lol

could be wrong tho

[west sequoia]

its weirdly ambiguous about whether he actually took a council seat

[elfin anchor]

i thought he did briefly after helping the republic players kill that one dark councilor

[west sequoia]

cus the republic killing Arho (military offense) happens right before Malgus pulls his coup card

[elfin anchor]

then again i havent played that story in a while

ah

[west sequoia]

its literally the last thing before you get into the two flashpoints

so if malgus was on the council it was for a matter of minutes

but yeah, as the game shows it, at that point there have been 3 military offence councillors in a fairly short time

[unborn brook]

Malgus wanted the Empire to face a cleansing fire... (Likely inspired by his vision he thought was the Republic burning)

[rocky bear]

NGL, I headcanon that Moff Regus is the spark which causes my Agent's eventual turn to traitor later on.

That and what happened in the class story, her being a Chiss/Alien, and then ofc Theron.

[west sequoia]

we never got the content where regus goes rogue because the empire is letting in too many aliens

[unborn brook]

Truly a shame...

[west sequoia]

i think it was planned as a flashpoint?

honestly its weird he's still the most recently portrayed grand moff of the sith empire and he hasnt been seen since launch

[void pelican]

i assume he ate shit during the zakuul wars

or died of old age

[rocky bear]

NGL, I wish Watcher Two/Shara joined you as an actual companion.

Even if it's during the expansions or hell during the stories.

She'd have been a much more interesting romance then Kailyo or Raina I feel (though Raina suffers from being obtained late)

[visual remnant]

That's been my headcanon as well, espically after his VA passed. Time to make Pyron the new Grand Moff, I think.

[void pelican]

like

the guy was on marr’s bad side probably and if he survived that, would have been in the hot seat for the Zakuul campaign

Either they killed him, or some Sith did during an internal purge

[elfin anchor]

so there is something thats been on my mind lately

could it be that the location of Zakuul in the galaxy map is not entirely accurate? Cause apparently the eternal empire invaded the galaxy starting from Darvannis which is in the other side of the galaxy basically

[unborn brook]

The Eternal Fleet is a pathway to many systems... Some consider to be unnatural... Lol

[west sequoia]

its not an exclusionary line of dialogue so it was probably their entry point for invading Hutt space

[wide marsh]

if only

[subtle salmon]

Awkward moment when realize for my Trooper and Agent, if want to reunite with Elara and Temple, have to do the entirety of kotfe first

[elfin anchor]

Guys so lately i've been wondering, do we happen to know from this game which one was the canon ending for onderon in kotor 2? Why am I asking this? Because in kotor 2 Kreia says that under Talia, Onderon would eventually lose its identity but under Vaklu, they wont though Vaklu's regime itself wont last and there would be many conflicts.

We later do see Onderon in the bane period and even in the movie period and they havent changed a thing than how we saw them in the old republic period. Which would make you think that Vaklu won, however, siding with Vaklu means that the exile would have had to face and kill all the other jedi masters and is overall considered to be a dark side choice iirc (and most people assume only light side choices are canon). (There is also ofc the possibility that Kreia was just wrong in her visions).

So what im trying to get at here, does swtor give any any hints or anything over who might have won the onderonian civil war?

Im personally not sure if saying "well onderon is part of the republic" is enough justification to say Talia won however. Since we dont really know what the post kotor 2 conflicts involving Vaklu were about. For all we know, the republic just conquered Onderon or something but gave them a certain level of freedom in some matters.

[unborn brook]

Given Onderon is still a monarchy I’m guessing Talia won... I doubt Vaklu would keep the monarchy title because it smells of Talia’s pro-Republic stench and not his Onderon First agenda...

[elfin anchor]

hmmm

I always did think Vaklu would have become king himself

tbh

but i may just be misremembering

[unborn brook]

Meh... I’m working under the assumption that the people were sick of the monarchy... Idk if they actually said this, but it feels appropriate “Down with the monarchy, Down with Queen Talia”

Plus he’s General Vaklu, not Lord Vaklu/Duke Vaklu... Even if he has royal blood...

[bitter cedar]

I’ve wondered about this myself, it makes me wonder if zakuul had colonies around the edges of the galaxy or if darvannis has a more ancient connection to zakuul , there are a fair amount of jedi looking ruins there

[west sequoia]

kinda wish KotFE/ET had a quirky miniboss gang

[jovial ether]

I hope Vaklu lost. I don't like that guy anyways

Anyways, I know we can find a mask that looks like Darth Nihilus's mask in the game, but is it in the lore universe actually Nihilus's mask or is it just a game mechanic?

[elfin anchor]

Lately i begun finding myself siding with him

[jovial ether]

I am curious to hear your opinion why

[elfin anchor]

he is acting on Onderon's interests first

[west sequoia]

some CM items are directly stated to be replicas of historical figures' attire

[jovial ether]

Hmmm.....I can see that.

Fair point

[elfin anchor]

iirc part of the whole reaosn why onderon wanted to secede was over a dispute about the prices of the wildlife that onderon was exporting over to telos

if my memory serves me right, the deal is far more favorable for onderon under Vaklu

[elfin anchor]

I do wonder if zakuul had colonies in the rishi maze satellite galaxy if anything

[stuck ice]

What's the best expansion story/lore wise?

[prisma portal]

I mean the most lore was probably added in Fallen Empire

my fav would be Shadow of Revan, though

[west sequoia]

idk a lot of kotfe's later chapters were "here is a thin film of lore over a glorified companion recruit alert"

and its pretty much always zakuul lore which nobody really gives a shit about any more

[prisma portal]

well it established an entire new major faction, completely redistributed power in the galaxy and basically functioned as a main timeline event with the Ch1 timeskip

I wasnt talking about the quality or my preference of the lore introduced

just about the magnitude and the effect on the galaxy

of course the majority of people didn't like it so it was almost retconned with Onslaught and Legacy of the Sith

[west sequoia]

eh i wouldnt say retconned

cus it all still happened

arguably the entire point of the alliance is to restore the status quo of the galactic republic and sith empire as dominant powers in the galaxy and resume the war between them

[prisma portal]

I said "almost retconned" because

I can almost guarantee you

[west sequoia]

they're ignoring it but they're not saying it never happened

[prisma portal]

there was no initial plan to || immedaitely nuke the eternal fleet and gravestone out of existence, negate the eternal throne's power, make the gemini disappear and go back to republic vs empire ||

[west sequoia]

still doesnt make it a retcon

Zakuul still happened

[prisma portal]

no shit

that's why I said almost

because the effects are the same

even if the methods weren't

[west sequoia]

not really, the republic is still fucked

[prisma portal]

when was it not

under the glorious leader Saresh?

[west sequoia]

correct

[unborn brook]

During Corellia?

[west sequoia]

the Sith stabilized off Makeb and deliberately engaged the Dread Masters on Oricon with a minimal force to prevent massive losses but they were still behind the Republic, and losing Ziost widened the gap even further

then KotFE/ET more or less imply Acina did a similar thing while the Republic kept ramming itself headfirst into Zakuul

"please save the last organized group of jedi from a sith attack"
"please save our last hope of rearming in the aftermath of zakuul from a sith attack"
"please save a critical resource member world from a sith attack"
"please save our civvies from a mando attack"

[vapid edge]

KOTFE is always the best for me... (Arcann <3). Annoying robots enemies though. And the alerts stuff is optional.

No different than current Legacy of the Sith with weeklies that no one did (on Satele Shan and Shae Viszla)

well maybe not on SS... I see some people on Ruhnuk

But KOTFE have the most engaging dynamic between you and the Sith Emperor who was trying to get you to believe him while manipulating you to kill his children for him

I really like the format of some chapters being specific about certain class companions. Alas we have too much of them.

Shadow of Revan annoys me with the mandatory flashpoints storyline (of which I am tired doing it for random gf)...

but I wished Scourge actually have more things to say while in it

I was bummed by SOR as it was meant to be continuation of KOTOR, KOTOR2, Revan novel etc... instead its an expanded version of The Foundry flashpoint

[elfin anchor]

I'd say Makeb (hutt cartel expansion). It plays it safe with the lore all things around. Things like SoR really are just not good imo, hate what they did to revan (Somehow revan returned again) and the zakuul expansions are hit or miss imo

[subtle salmon]

SoR I find there are good parts, though the Reven thing, guess I just treated it as not my Revan and went along with whatever happens

[elfin anchor]

oh def, there are good things i agree

yavin is also one of my favorite planets moons you can visit in the game in fact

just really not a fan of the story tbh

[subtle salmon]

Kotfe stuff, was doing few things and can’t help but feel Koth and Sonya were naive about the Outlander. Like they expected them to respect Zakuul and such. And yet I’m here thinking only ones that would do that is if you are a LS JK and JC. The rest might not care.

[elfin anchor]

yea

i also just struggle to picture them really trusting someone that is an actual ds character, even non force sensitives in the lore feel uncomfortable around powerful dark side force users

yeah i really dont find it realistic for Koth to cry about committing war crimes to Darth Nox

[subtle salmon]

SW and SI, they are Sith and revenge is their bread and butter. Trooper and Agent, to them Zakuul is the enemy. Smuggler and Bounty Hunter, they might not care for Zakuul.

Would think Lana would’ve told them about you and warned them. Though guess she forgot to mention that.

[elfin anchor]

i feel only a LS warrior, LS JK or LS JC might make sense

[subtle salmon]

Yea

[elfin anchor]

my headcanon though is that the outlander is the hero of tython. I really dont see the Jedi not sending him to aid Marr in pursuing the Emperor to wild space

there is no way they wouldnt send their own guy who actually defeated the emperor once before and whose crew are all people who previously also fought off his influence

[subtle salmon]

Oh yea can see that

Feeling Marr brings any the PCs because by Ziost, you do run into the Emperor

[void pelican]

I still think the Wrath is a good candidate

[elfin anchor]

he is i agree, (well, a light sided one). But if I had to choose between wrath or HoT i'd say the HoT

[subtle salmon]

Crazy the wrath could technically unleash their wrath onto Zakuul

[narrow mulch]

@subtle salmon has become a Rising Star of the Neutral faction for reaching rank 5.

[subtle salmon]

And find it bit eye rolling Koth and Senya treat all of Zakuul as their people, and here I’m like: Really, think many on Zakuul would hate you and possibly stab you in the back if means getting on good terms with Arcann.

Since think one chapter someone told them the outlander and Senya are there

[elfin anchor]

santa?

[subtle salmon]

Senya

[elfin anchor]

Im just over here trying to think what'd be a good headcanon for the future of zakuul like what happens to it after the movies. While it becoming irrelevant is a given, i do wonder if more interesting stuff could be said

[subtle salmon]

I imagine bit chaotic and isolated

[elfin anchor]

Im torn between saying it was one of the Dark Worlds (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Worlds)

(though granted, these are worlds in the unknown regions, not in wild space. Unless the parts of wild space that got lost over time were considered part of the UR?)

Or just a random outpost by the intergalactic banking clan to do business with the other galaxies lol

[west sequoia]

"furthest reaches of the galaxy" sounds more like something on the galactic rim and Zakuul is a fair bit inward iirc

SWTOR kinda draws its regional boundaries without any respect to the lore, the Unknown Regions are a lot larger than the small slice the galaxy map depicts

and in the configuration it has had since 5.0 its got an unadjustable angular bias, the top of the ingame galactic map isnt galactic north

and i think the game's depiction of Zakuul's surroundings leads a lot of players to assume only that section of the galaxy is Wild Space which is wrong, its a blanket term for anything outside the Unknown Regions (where access is heavily impeded by a large swathe of ancient hyperspace anomalies) that hasnt been thoroughly explored

[bitter cedar]

i think i remember reading a comment somewhere pitching the idea of zakuul being overgrown and full of tribal warring factions like returning back to the old ways and old gods lore (by the time of ot) I think it’d be cool to see a post-apocalyptic/abandoned zakuul leaving it a mystery what happened to the people there.

[elfin anchor]

yeah that'd be cool

[west sequoia]

iirc if you cut off alliance support that kind of thing is already happening on zakuul

[void pelican]

like taris but less bad

[bitter cedar]

like if taris was a roanoke island disappearance instead of orbital bombardment and zombies

[bitter cedar]

I still gotta play thru some variants of kotet and so forth, but yeah, some people have put out their own ideas of how they envision zakuul during the modern eras, somewhere in some old reddit threads/comments.

[vapid edge]

without Valkorion or their technology.. maybe its reasonable for their society to regress to their base level

[untold ibex]

Anything good to discuss now?

[unborn brook]

Umm... The structure of the Emperor’s Hand (under Vitiate)? The Encyclopedia says the Servants (Servant one and onwards) were twelve in total... By the time of Echoes of Oblivion, that number seemed to have ballooned to twenty-two...

Perhaps there were always twelve active.

As Servant One went crazy if you’re a Knight on Nathema. It’s safe to assume he dies and was replaced.

[untold ibex]

12 active
Another 12 as replacement

[unborn brook]

Perhaps...

[bitter cedar]

I wonder if other Servants are out and about at all, maybe protecting or watching over the Emperor's Vaults besides the one on Nathema.

[untold ibex]

Prob not

[bright phoenix]

Fallen empire / Eternal throne, the only lore worth obsessing over.

By using careful and allusive narrative design in its worldbuilding, art, dialogue and story structure, the Fallen Empire saga restores ACTUAL mystery to the Star Wars IP. It delivers its spiciest lore through compelling implications rather than direct exposition. One of the main enigmas involve the logistics of practical immortality. The Emperor's way of doing it still requires far too much manual work and effort. Has someone else figured out a better way a long time ago? What if the solution would be to create a religion? Or what if you simply instead, single-handedly directed the evolution of an entire civilization? Is the Emperor following in someone else's footsteps? Could his perfect utopia, that he wants to expand across the galaxy, actually have a hidden catch? Subscribe on swtor.com to find out more...

[unborn brook]

Zildrog!!!

[vapid edge]

only time in the game where romancing minor character get interesting

but hmm.. pure DS route of this was much more scary.

[elfin anchor]

When Surik gave Bao-Dur's Remote the signal to activate the Mass Shadow Generator, Surik escaped with her companions on the Ebon Hawk while Malachor V was obliterated. G0-T0's photoreceptor was recovered, however, and by the year 3642 BBY, was stored in the vaults of the treasure ship King's Ransom, which belonged to the true Sith Empire.

how tf did Goto's photoreceptor survive malachor's destruction

or does the photoreceptor seen in the smuggler story actually belong to the goto droids that seceded from the republic after kotor 2?

[narrow mulch]

@elfin anchor has become a Rising Star of the Sith Empire for reaching rank 5.

[elfin anchor]

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Secession_of_400100500260026

oh it wasnt just his photoreceptor, this is what the corellia museum replica codex entry says:

Whereas the Republic Foundation Museum in the Government District is considered a scholarly resource of priceless antiquities, Axial Park's Museum Republica was designed with tourists in mind. Combining the refined presentation of more traditional museums with display exhibits best described as carnival-like, the Museum Republica tries to offer something for everyone.

Before the Imperial Guard raided the museum and transformed it into a base of operations, the museum displayed many items of disputed provenance: a cybernetic lower jaw allegedly belonging to Darth Malak, a pair of boots worn by the fabled Jedi Cay Qel-Droma and a deactivated G0-T0 infrastructure planning droid said to have been recovered from the Malachor Five asteroid field.
Granted, i guess the implication here is that they are fakes. I thought Malak's body was destroyed too.

[vapid edge]

honestly letting Kaliyo blow Zakuul made sense for the chapter

dramatic exit though

[subtle salmon]

Koth was expecting to be this big hero and only thought they won because they have Valkorian, what he didn’t know was what kind of person the Outlander is

[vapid edge]

I think I need to lie to him so he wouldn't abscond that way.

[elfin anchor]

Kreia: :: From the smallest of actions, the smallest of cruelties and kindnesses, great tragedies are made. ::
Kreia: :: The wounds inside people, the wounds suffered by planets... both cause echoes, heard and felt through the Force. ::
Kreia: :: And these echoes build, and all that can hear them shall become deafened... or die. ::
Kreia: :: Choose the right moment, create the right echo, and then all shall be destroyed. ::
Kreia: :: And there are those that feed on such deaths. And when no life is left, they shall consume themselves. ::
Kreia: :: You have taught them to bond with others, and then feed on others through that bond. ::
Kreia: :: What you have brought is the death of all who can feel the Force. ::
Kreia: :: It is your gift to the galaxy, exile. ::
Kreia: :: And unless you hear it and silence the echo you have caused, then every living thing, everywhere, that is touched by the Force... will die. ::

"As much as you can form connections with others, such connections exist on a galactic scale as well... This pain I describe, this echo, is true for planets as well. Tremendous loss of life on a planetary scale can also cast echoes, create a scream, a wound in the Force that can travel across the galaxy. It can be felt by Force Sensitives and it can influence them, whether they realize it or not. If enough of these echoes are allowed to build in the Force, uncontrolled, the consequences could be disastrous. The connections of all life would be affected. ....in order for this to work, all of them must be timed correctly, must be carefully orchestrated and controlled… from the greatest to the smallest of echoes."

I was thinking about these lines from kreia and it made me wonder, Vitiate's ritual in the Jedi Knight storyline consisted of causing billions of simultaneous deaths or so Scourge says (should be trillions tbh)

so he wanted to create many force echoes to kill everyone on a galactic scale?

[west sequoia]

the ritual that Vitiate uses to drain life seems to require a large amount of death to act as a catalyst, the echoes/wounds/whatever else you want to call them would probably be more of a byproduct than the desired end result

[elfin anchor]

i keep thinking it has to be more than just a byproduct. Not only because well, we dont really know how the ritual actually works and how it even affects the entire galaxy. And the only way its realistically affecting the entire galaxy is through wounds if anything.

and i keep thinking of atris' question in kotor 2 asking the sith holocrons what did they mean when they said that force wounds were beacons.

or how other material said that kreia basically found True Sith texts on the trayus academy which explicitely talked about killing the force and thats what blackpilled her and also made her suspect about the existance of vitiate's sith.

There just must be more than that.

i get that the vision obsidian had for the true sith was way different than what we ended up getting, however, what kotor 2 states is nevertheless canon and im just trying to think of a way to sort of tie it into what swtor says other than just saying "lol the text kreia found was made by some random sith in vitiate's empire"

[unborn brook]

Basegame SWTOR didn’t really respect much of what KOTOR 2 brought to the table... So while it is a canonical part of the timeline, it is also sort of separate...

The True Sith being the Galactic Empire but with actual Sith ingrained in its structure...

[west sequoia]

I don't really think any part of SWTOR respects KOTOR2

there's little nods here and there

to my knowledge the layout of the Dantooine temple in the flashpoint is almost a direct copy of its layout within KOTOR2 but that's a really nominal reference

Avellone just wanted a really different set of themes, I guess

[unborn brook]

I personally saw Tenebrae’s ritual required a primer of death for it to become an aoe. More pre-ritual death = more areas effected...

[vapid edge]

urgh kept getting stuck

[vapid edge]

.... the start of their kink.. tch tch

[untold ibex]

More like
Start of a bbq

[vapid edge]

The Voss healed his body but his mind got screwed by this experience. Now he need her to do reenactments for foreplays.

[untold ibex]

True
But also not no

[vapid edge]

wow.. Arcann's personal shuttle is huge.

[vapid edge]

hmm.. still so funny how my brain only register his pretty face with Thexan and not Arcann.

[untold ibex]

Thats a normal zakuul shuttle

[vapid edge]

This is the normal shuttle.

Arcann's was larger

[vapid edge]

this is definitely Arcann's room. Vaylin doesn't seem to be a reader

Let me imagine the temper tantrum

[unborn brook]

Koth v Arcaan?

[vapid edge]

Considering how mad he was about Senya, I don't suppose he wouldn't blow a fuse about Arcann joining in.

Then again, I think the tragic backstory thing of his was more Vaylin's style than something Arcann would care about

[lyric oriole]

Koth would be based tbh

Arcann and Senya are evil and cringe

Vaylin is maybe ok but still ehhh

But def not them

[unborn brook]

Koth’s a joke... “Valkorion was good to Zakuul” Yeah? And Tenebrae was good to the average citizen of the Sith Empire for around a thousand years before revealing his true desires... Zakuul have Valkorion for what, a few hundred years? A decade? That’s rookie numbers...

[lyric oriole]

Valkorion rewrote their entire mythos to center around him

Most people won't take well to others telling them that the foundation of your culture and your faith are lies

[unborn brook]

Tenebrae did that over a course of two decades for the Sith...

“Thank the Emperor you’ve arrived” -Lord Zash in Inquisitor Chapt 1...

[lyric oriole]

Yeah and it took him eating an entire planet for them to turn on him

It's a very difficult thing to deal with and Koth doesn't do it too badly

Yeah it's hard for him to let go of the worship but you can see he is a good person at heart

[untold ibex]

Just checked it
They both are the same

[vapid edge]

....the first picture was my character inside a walker.

you know... if you have a difficult times seeing scale of things in 2D picture can be something to be checked out

[untold ibex]

Nah dont have difficulty
Just compared those 2 pics and other ingames perspectives

[bright phoenix]

couple hundred years? I think your dates are little off, probably closer to a 1000 years just like the Sith Empire

I like to think Vitiate got bored of Dromund Kaas pretty quickly

It's possible Zakuul got more attention after he finally found the Eternal Fleet he was looking for

[unborn brook]

Well... The dialogue Senya has about Valkorion gives me the impression they evolved recent-ish...

[bright phoenix]

isn't it kind of the opposite, she says he shaped their entire culture and identity

[unborn brook]

But him not having heirs before meeting Senya feels wrong... Wouldn’t the primative Zakuul want their mighty leader to have a line of succession?

[bright phoenix]

he's immortal bro

the family is just a formality 😂

[unborn brook]

The primative Zakuulens wouldn’t know that, at least until a couple centuries!!!

[bright phoenix]

oh yeah true, well

[unborn brook]

At least the Sith have experience with long-lived rulers... I mean look at Marka Ragnos... No backstabbing, just natural death... Lol

[bright phoenix]

you know there's a lot we don't know about those early years of zakuul being ran by vitiate

all we know is he sort of finds an opening with the whole demon savior myth

maybe Zakuul slowly witnessed the extraordinary unfold over the following centuries

[unborn brook]

Plus, Tenebrae made the Sith dependent on their God-Emperor in a span of 20 years in their seemingly blind wandering to Dromund Kaas...

[bright phoenix]

yeah he already had practice

[unborn brook]

The difference between the Sith and Zakuul is likely the Dark Council...

[bright phoenix]

with Zakuul it's a bit different though, there's a massive technological jump

Zakuul was apprently fairly primitive by Star Wars standards

[unborn brook]

The Dark Council let Tenebrae take a step back. Reminding the Empire of his power when an attempted coup...

[west sequoia]

i have this mostly unfounded theory that zakuul has a faster orbital period so their "years" are shorter

but i dont even think there's anything from even the zakuulan's point of view that really suggests a timeframe for when Vitiate showed up, its a really poorly written aspect of KotFE

i think the only real pointer is Revan's attempted assassination getting so close that Vitiate starts looking into contingencies and imo that included starting a second secret empire on Zakuul

[bright phoenix]

from a zakuulan cultural pov

it's from the era when they were still tribes

valkorion united the tribes and moved on from that system of champions and matriarchs or whatever to create the knights and scions

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/knights-of-zakuul

valk probably had plenty of opportunities to demonstrate his vitiate-enhanced power and this is how a legend slowly develops around him

[unborn brook]

The Original Valkorion was a champion, if I’m not mistaken...

[bright phoenix]

yep

already supposedly a great warrior before vitiate even took over

I guess vitiate appreciates a good foundation

[unborn brook]

The proto-Alliance Commander

[bright phoenix]

or maybe valkorion already had the respect of his peers which made it easier for vitiate to fit in

[bright phoenix]

yes

[unborn brook]

(It would be an even greater parallel if there were eight champions... One of which was Valkorion)

[untold ibex]

Anything good I missed?

[west sequoia]

no mention of a timescale in that codex

[bright phoenix]

maybe it's too big of a commitment to give a straight [x] amount of years ago

maybe zakuul didn't know how to keep track of time lol

[untold ibex]

Or had a other time

[west sequoia]

seems weird to have so much other exposition and then just go 'uhhhhhh indeterminate point in the past'

[bright phoenix]

I guess

best we can do is

[west sequoia]

zakuul fatigue hit faster than praetoria fatigue

[bright phoenix]

"centuries ago", lol

praetoria?

[west sequoia]

City of Heroes alternate universe with the same base concept

[bright phoenix]

ahh that's why you bought it up in the other server

similar to zakuul or what

[west sequoia]

yeah there's enough similarities that i wonder if swtor's writers were somewhat inspired by it

outwardly presenting itself as a technologically advanced utopia ruled by a long-lived emperor, standing strong against a hostile environment, and when you look deeper there are cracks in the critical pillars of its infrastructure and a fomenting rebellion

[bright phoenix]

I see most of the drama happening only after valk is replaced by arcann and then vaylin

[west sequoia]

Cole even does the "devour the souls of the dead to empower himself" gimmick

there's even the same duality of perception, Praetorian loyalists see Cole as their unquestioned Emperor, and Primals and the Praetorian resistance call him Tyrant

[west sequoia]

yeah i think if it was more of an exact copy then more people would have called them out, I've only just started CoH within the last few months so I'm only just making this association now

[bright phoenix]

I think the only thing that sucks about Zakuul is their main emblem. I mean wtf is this?

[untold ibex]

I dont hate it

looks cool

[bright phoenix]

It would be SOOOO much more poetic and epic if it was the same crutch cross symbol like the cutout on the outer shell of Iokath (Zildrog's essence transfer church)

imagine it

replace the symbol on their shields

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_potent

lol

[unborn brook]

A stylized image of the Capital Spire?

[bright phoenix]

I have no idea, I don't see it. Maybe it's a top down view of an eternal fleet ship?

[untold ibex]

Mostly, yeah

[unborn brook]

(That seems more likely, something something the front of a ship in the Eternal Fleet)

[bright phoenix]

https://only-games.co/cdn/shop/files/f983cfe665559f5e72918be12af9491a_800x.jpg?v=1724084984

ehh

yeah the front part

with the square

[unborn brook]

Honestly, would have been just as cool if it were Izax/Zildrog imagery... Valkorion does admire the Old Ways... “Such pagentry” and all that...

[untold ibex]

Yeah but Zildrog is just for them a symbol. For the underground
And Izax a traitor who could yeet almost everyone

while the eternal fleet presented strength and proud

[unborn brook]

Zakuulan mythology confused/conflated Zildrog and Izax

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/zildrog

[vapid edge]

Hmm.. I'm usually DS1 to keep the eye color but interesting to have different dialogue sets here that I never hear before.

[untold ibex]

From the background sith chars, which is the coolest one from the DC

[jovial ether]

Hey. Can someone help me find any piece of lore in SWTOR's game, (codex entries, journals, etc.), that cover Malachor V's fate post its final destruction in KOTOR II?

[meager forge]

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/galactic-history-73-the-battle-of-malachor-five
https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/mass-shadow-generator
https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/the-unmasked-ambitious-beginnings
https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/the-unmasked-a-dark-experiment

[elfin anchor]

there is the bioanalysis mission that reveals that there were still like bacterial life or some shit found in the asteroid fields of what once was malachor 5

goto's eye somehow was also found in the debris i think? Or was that a fake

there is absolutely no way it could have possibly survived that destruction ngl

[jovial ether]

Is it available to view anywhere or you have to play that mission in the game?

[elfin anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/i-dont-know-miles-teller-andrew-whiplash-i-have-no-clue-gif-18304635

imma log in and see if i can take a screenshot of it

[narrow mulch]

@elfin anchor has become a Rising Star of the Sith Empire for reaching rank 5.

[elfin anchor]

assuming i still hve bioanalysis or whatever the crew skill for that mission was

[jovial ether]

Thanks

[teal siren]

When will Arn Peralun be romanceable? He was introduced in 2019, and still we can only flirt, and he doesn't seem to catch it 🙁

I'm dating Theron Shan, but I would break up if needed to be with Arn

[teal siren]

I suppose that he would become a full romance option allong with other companions introduced after kotet

[jovial ether]

Wait a sec, how much of Malachor V remained after the second activation of the Mass Shadow Generator? How big is this "asteroid field"? How could there still be an atmosphere for new pockets of life to grow if the planet was more destroyed after KOTOR II?

[elfin anchor]

send your companion to find out

:p

[jovial ether]

Man, this should have been a full story side-mission.

[elfin anchor]

i certainly do wish we saw more of the malachor system

malachor 3 has terrak morrhage's tomb

[unborn brook]

Malachor 3 also had business Thanaton had... Lol

[elfin anchor]

yep

[jovial ether]

Wookieepedia says that some storm beasts survived Malachor V's destruction and some are living in the remains to this day, and it sources this to the "Legacy of Malachor" companion mission. Does it state that anywhere in the game?

[elfin anchor]

not that i know of

would be nice, i like how storm beasts look

[dense igloo]

Strongest Sith lords ranked in my own opinion.

0. Full Potential Darth Vader (never reached full potential)
1. Darth Vitiate
2. Darth Sidious
3. Darth Revan
4. Darth Malgus
5. Darth Nox/Darth Oculus/Darth Imperius (Player name determined)
6. Emperor's Wrath (Player name determined)
7. Exar Kun
8. Tulak Hord and Lord Starkiller (Tie)
9. Darth Nihilus
10. Freedon Nadd
11. Darth Bane
12. Darth Vader
13. Darth Jadus (Vitiate was obviously talking bullshit for anyone that wonders why Jadus is here)
14. Darth Plagueis

[west sequoia]

Vitiate ranked Jadus highly because he's a manipulative bastard that will do whatever it takes to see his plans through

part of me wonders if Jadus was an acolyte of the Dread Masters that drove himself to prominence after their assumed deaths, his "democratization of fear" sounds a lot like what they had planned with their Oricon-based invasion

[dense igloo]

Yeah in Vitiate's eyes, Jadus is probably in the top 5.

[elfin anchor]

Exar Kun should be way above Nox and Wrath

peak vader which should be somewhere around the OT according to some sources should be way stronger than Bane but even then im unsure if he'd be in the Top 15 at all

Darth Nox should be way stronger than Imperius simply because Nox keeps the ghosts as its a DS choice while Imperius, assuming a purely light side run, probably let them go. Unsure if Nox should even be there to be honest I never got the impression that Nox was a powerhouse compared to the other names in the list

[elfin anchor]

and spirit exar is compared to Sidious by luke

i really dont get the hype for Tulak Hord who is featless and has vague quotes. All we know scaling chain wise is that he is inferior to Marka Ragnos (for marka is described as the greatest of the ancient dark lords, strongest, blah blah blah. Consistently so.). All we have on Tulak is Khem Val hyping him up (and in some ocassions Khem admitting he misremembers Tulak's greatness).

[teal siren]

Do you guys think there will be a canon ending within legends continuity to swtor?

[west sequoia]

no

the cartel market and more particularly boosts and dyes fund SWTOR's longevity

[teal siren]

Well but the story has to end at some point, doesnt mean I want it to

I just hope that when the time comes they do make an ending for the story

[west sequoia]

the only reason there will be an ending is if the game crashes and burns due to a dropoff in profit/revenue

[teal siren]

I mean that they dont just offline the servers whenever that is (hopefully a long time) but they actually bring a closure to the story, maybe different endings and one of them canon within legends

[west sequoia]

well they have just returned to basically the last unresolved plot thread from 1.0 content

[teal siren]

I think we can have still many years of stories

Specially since the story updates are not very long lately

[west sequoia]

sure, they've repeatedly proven they can spin up new storylines from nothing, zakuul being the most notable example

[unborn brook]

Plus the Nul stuff... “Oh no, a Sith Tenebrae swindled that we’ve never heard of!!!”

[teal siren]

I think the jedi knight fits better as the "canon" outlander, but the base class stories are perfectly compatible with each other

[untold ibex]

Hmmmm
Would say JK too

[vapid edge]

I prefer Sith Warrior more. Each time Valkorion yap, it felt like its actually your own betraying emperor talking to you.

And the dynamics was very enmeshed. "I was no longer yours" vs "I made you my Wrath" etc.

[west sequoia]

"I am not your Wrath, I am your executioner"

Vitiate also says the most about the Wrath at the end of KotET

[vapid edge]

It made sense considering how Valkorion's family talked about him being distracted for many years... there's a Sith somewhere that was proving to be a better vessel than his overpowered children.

[unborn brook]

All Force Users make sense... Warrior and Knight: See Sakuran and Otreblan Tano, respectively...

Inquisitor: You and Tenebrae rose up from nothing in the Sith, Dark Side could parallel Tenebrae well...

Consular: You gave while Tenebrae took... (Those sort of feelings... Sort of weak)

[west sequoia]

I think my personal outlander ranking goes something like Warrior, Knight, Consular, Inq, Agent/Trooper, BH, Smug

[unborn brook]

But Smuggler makes perfect sense for one reason...

GROIN KICK!!!

[west sequoia]

i am god's strongest smuggler hater

[untold ibex]

My ranking is
Knight
Warrior
Inq
Consular
BH
Agent
Smug
trooper

[untold ibex]

Why

[unborn brook]

The Smuggler stumbled into Main Character-ism... Lol

[west sequoia]

yeah it is basically that

[untold ibex]

https://tenor.com/view/gif-gif-19493996

[unborn brook]

If it wasn’t for Skavik, the Smuggler wouldn’t be kicking Malgus in the groin!!!

[untold ibex]

"Kick the Baby"

[vapid edge]

I struggled to push tech characters beyond Ilum.

Barely even could play Republic toons past KOTFE

[untold ibex]

dang

[west sequoia]

pubs have the better 7.0

[vapid edge]

It just.. wrong. Lol

Arcann need his darling Wrath. I just write my JK, JC, Smuggler, IA, Trooper, SI all are not main characterism and exist as they are.

Like my Darth Sakuran still in dark council and such

[west sequoia]

tbh i have two versions of my characters, their story content version and their RP version

[untold ibex]

I honestly never dated Arcann and will never do

[vapid edge]

Would be nice if we have holo of our characters and we put them in stronghold to show how we actually exist in each other timeline

[west sequoia]

the agent i went hand of jadus on is actually a bumbling neurotic wreck that gets desk jobs specifically not to retrigger her mental breakdown

[vapid edge]

No one care . I never romance most characters in the game either

[west sequoia]

she's not even formally an Intelligence operative any more

I did the arcann romance on a boosted 70 just to see what it was like

[untold ibex]

Same lul

[west sequoia]

its kinda goofy wholesome

[vapid edge]

My Agent still somewhere doing Agent things

Smuggler also doing smuggler things

Jedis also doing Jedi things.. hehe

[teal siren]

I dated Kira Carsen and then Theron Shan, but flirted with many people along the way

[untold ibex]

I didnt did it because it just felt like
You ARE redeemed but I still wouldnt love you

[west sequoia]

out of my small handful of characters that made it through past Onslaught I've got exactly one independent Commander

just to see if it changes anything significantly, so far nothing

[untold ibex]

Maybe in the future

[west sequoia]

the devs seem to be scared to put any kind of real variation into the story, its just little blurbs of dialogue change ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[untold ibex]

Hm
got a point

[unborn brook]

Either that or their story budget’s tight...

[vapid edge]

I replayed KOTFE recently and like little bits of "I found love on Zakuul. Who knows.. maybe you may find it" "this is where Arcann kept his prized possessions" "Posessions?". So there's totally a jealous competition between Valkorion and Arcann from the start. I like that.

[mild jetty]

Is Acina vs Vowrawn really the last true branching story decision?

Every other one I can think of is just whether someone is dead or not

[west sequoia]

its barely a branch

[mild jetty]

I gues Vette vs Torian counts

[unborn brook]

It’s a different color pallet for the story... Lol

[west sequoia]

theres a oneoff comment in one of the state of the galaxy articles that Acina's reign is still very hardline on infighting but Vowrawn doesnt give a shit because he thinks its funny, the game content has yet to acknowledge this

[mild jetty]

But it's a case where a different voice actor actually has to record a different scene.

For the most part the decisions I can think of are just someone is missing because they're dead, it's not actually much different otherwise

[unborn brook]

No... It’s the same scenes, just a the Emperor/Empress dialogue is spoken with their respective tone...

[west sequoia]

it is kinda sad that the extent of player choice impact is whether a small handful of characters is alive or dead and it has incredibly minor ones

[untold ibex]

Vowrawn gives a shit but he dosent makes his own hands dirty for it

[mild jetty]

And for example in the next story section, all the sith who just left Rikan and Shahar to die becausxe they didn't care suddenly have to say "oh no...they have Rikan and Shahar....". Like I can't think of the last actual stroy branch where you got to do something meaningfully different

[unborn brook]

If the Devs had the means, we’d have Malora join the Alliance and be a part of the Nul discussion!!! (Or she’s dead/imprisoned) lol

[west sequoia]

I'm pretty sure I picked every single 7.5 ending choice across multiple characters, the end result is the same every time

its literally that far side illusion of choice comic

[untold ibex]

Maybe Malora joined off screen the Alliance

oooor Jadus

[unborn brook]

No mention of her, thusly can’t be...

[west sequoia]

you can try and recruit her and she rejects you

[mild jetty]

Killing Theron on Umbara is probably the biggest case of a major story decision simply being just someone is missing, it's not actually different.

[untold ibex]

Hmm true
But other hands we dont need a mention for it not always

[west sequoia]

trying to think what the last actual gameplay variant off a player choice was

[mild jetty]

And that decision existing also makes it so that we'll never get him being the main narrator for a story section, like how Lana is the one who walks you through Threads

[west sequoia]

Voss chapter in KotET where if you've recruited Rokuss beforehand, he autocompletes the bonus mission?

[vapid edge]

I think the newer Vetter content was Date Night but at least Torian does have main story appearance

as for branching choices and stuff.... sure, keeping certain characters alive did make them appear more in your story.

like people killed Arcann, Theron, Acina etc... certainly wouldn't care when we mention them still alive in our story

[untold ibex]

But on Theron side, he quite often appears or/and his name

[mild jetty]

I'm not criticizing per se, I know it's a tall order to start making branching paths in an mmo so I don't really mind, it is what it is. Some mmo's don't even have much of a story at all lol, and story was always something swtor had over most other mmo's.

[vapid edge]

as of now.. I do feel my decision to be mainly Pro-Alliance and being neutral about Empire vs Republic spatting made things feel less like a war but just a resuming of state where everyone want a perpetual war just to have something to do

[untold ibex]

less war in a war
Hmmmm, I should do that

less killing, destruction and so on

[vapid edge]

I mean, I dont see more Republic defections in my Alliance that I would expected. Even somehow recruited Elara too.... and her character menu insist she WONT join the Alliance.

I think Jorgan and Yunn sorta strongarm her into it after Iokath blunder.

[west sequoia]

WoW's second horde civil war probably has more variable content than all of swtor

[vapid edge]

for now.. I would say the current Imperial side narrative was proper Sith Civil War at the moment.

and republic do what ahhh

[mild jetty]

Oh gosh, the player saboteur route. Such a cool idea that hasnt' even been mentioned in years.

[vapid edge]

I'm not even being a sabotager... just not bothered with cleaning Acina's mess

[west sequoia]

yeah technically true since it last popped up on kessan

[vapid edge]

And blocking certain characters to different sides was EXPENSIVE. But I get that people really don't like Outlander Commander linear stuff.

[untold ibex]

Well, after the Meridian complex if you have Elara but helped the imp on Iokath or she refused to join the Alliance. You have a random instead Elara in the one Cutscene where the General, you and uhhh, gnost dural or soo are standing the hangar

[vapid edge]

I dont even know what was real or bug now 😄

[untold ibex]

fair

[west sequoia]

i wouldnt call Malgus going rogue entirely on his own a civil war

Krovos wants him to toe the line

[vapid edge]

would be really funny if theyre really doing the Sith Reformation arc

[west sequoia]

they've been doing that since Makeb

[untold ibex]

A great time for my Imp Saboteur to make it non existing

[west sequoia]

Marr and Acina put forth some pretty significant reforms and Vowrawn is apparently content to leave the state of the Empire as is if he becomes Emperor

[untold ibex]

I would say yesnt

Vowrawn dosent look like "I just leave it as it is"
He prob just let his DCs or others do the job

[west sequoia]

like I already said, there isnt any game content that depicts a difference between Acina's and Vowrawn's reign

[untold ibex]

True but we can say that after Acina's/Vowrawn's dead, the Sith Empire became a dark shadow of the republic

[west sequoia]

as the game presents it, the Empire is actually doing stuff and the Republic is either responding or quietly sitting in the corner doing nothing

[untold ibex]

Got a point
But in the defence of the republic, what can they do lul

[unborn brook]

Umm... Do what they should have done and drop thirteen mountains on Malgus’s head..:

[untold ibex]

The Republic is build around the jedi
not enough jedi = no major offensive, planning etc

[unborn brook]

Then they should draft more troops!!! That chancellor’s bound to be reelected then!!!

[west sequoia]

you can ask Arn what's going on at the tail end of Pub Kessan's and he just kinda shrugs

[untold ibex]

That still dosent change the fact or scenario if they republic drafted more people

[west sequoia]

he says something vague about the Republic being too busy

[untold ibex]

Maybe they try to build a new star of coruscant

[unborn brook]

The Moon of Courscant!!!

We, the Republic, can’t show too much hubris!!! We’ve totally learned our lesson...

[void pelican]

Honestly Agent fits well on Makeb specifically

[teal siren]

Yeah Rise of the Hutt Cartel doesnt have to be jedi knight, and its a case of compatible one republic class with one imperial class for the full story

[teal siren]

Maybe agent for imperial, and which republic clsss would you say?

[void pelican]

Knight or trooper

[teal siren]

As a Jedi Knight I allied myself with the Empire in Iokath and then back again with the Republic from Ossus onward (though mantaining the Alliance as independent as possible, and with not much trust for either side). It felt right for my chatacter to do it like that. He is a gray jedi but mostly light btw.

[untold ibex]

sounds like a normal jedi

[teal siren]

I dont think a standard jedi would have that much darkness

The way I see it a traditional jedi would have a few hundreds of dark points, if any at all

[untold ibex]

They in fact have
Not as many as we all know but enough that they are still considered jedi

[teal siren]

I consider myself jedi still but light-grey 🤣

[lusty hill]

This might have been asked, so my apologies. But did the Sith ever rebuild their Academy after the events of Revan, and the Eternal Empire? Or do you think they just said screw it.

[untold ibex]

They rebuild it

As always

[vapid edge]

space magic

[subtle salmon]

Only things not rebuilt are the buildings on Coruscant

And those were from when Malgus sacked it

[untold ibex]

In lore its been rebuilded mostly, just the old temple and few other places not

[subtle salmon]

Okay

[cerulean scarab]

Hol up

Is that Torian on the right?

It looked like his face when I saw it

[native plaza]

yup there celebrating your victory

[wheat mountain]

This Gran can be salvaged after death.
Though he arguably was a cyborg since he had fancy equipment "inside him" and was described like a robot.

[lusty hill]

This might be a bit crazy, in all of Star Wars media (including SWTOR) have we ever seen a gym?

[untold ibex]

HM

Think so

[bitter cedar]

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gym

[vapid edge]

what did Arcann engrave on this?

[west sequoia]

"My purpose lies with you"

[bright phoenix]

should have done it with the zakuul script smh

[vapid edge]

oooohhhhhh damn

[vapid edge]

But it's romance words for his beloved to understand.

And he did engrave it with his royal insignia.

[untold ibex]

I dont see a insignia

[vapid edge]

It's the zakuulan symbols at the sides of the plaque.

[untold ibex]

I dont think that they are insignias or royal

[untold ibex]

Nvm
Its a insignia but not royal

[untold ibex]

Final verdict from my search

Just a zakuul insignia

[vapid edge]

and Arcann being the living survivor of Zakuul royalty.

Royal insignia was the symbols of their dominion which was Zakuul.

I live in the state of Pahang which was a dominion of Pahang sultanate. They do this on clothings, buildings, etc to show everything was part of the Pahang sultanate.

And it can be meaningless if you want it to be too. Especially if certain things were extinct.