SWTOR Lore Discussion

[turbid peak]

I believe so

[jovial ether]

What body is the Sith Emperor Vitiate using in these pictures?

One is a statue of him but it doesn't look like a pureblood. The other is him in a hologram in front of the Dark Council.

[unborn brook]

Does it matter? By the time of the game, he seems to be less picky with his hosts, using human hosts when Thanaton is given a suicide mission...

Around 300 years ago, for Revan and Scourge, he seemed to use his true body...

[jovial ether]

Shouldn't the statue of the Emperor be based off of his true form though? No one except the high ranking Sith in the hierarchy of the Empire know of the Emperor's Voice.

[unborn brook]

But why? Tenebrae obscures his history. Why not keep his body, his backup plan and teather to the living world hidden?

[west sequoia]

even to the dark council he made very infrequent appearances

[jovial ether]

Even if he hid his original body and identity a secret and no one in the Empire in SWTORs time know about him anymore, shouldn't they at least make a statue that depicts him as a Sith pureblood in general since purebloods are held in high regard and value more than humans in the Empire?

[unborn brook]

It could also be another form of deception. Keep whatever enemy uncertain of who rules. Gnost Dural has stated many theories to Theorn Shan... (The strongest of the Dark Council take up the mantle or the Emperor is actually 1000 years old)

[west sequoia]

iirc the very early galactic timeline videos have gnost assuming its still naga sadow at the head of the empire until his ongoing research discovers otherwise

[unborn brook]

Well... I was talking about the Theron Shan book where Gnost Dural helps take down the Acendent Spear...

[jovial ether]

Spinning off of that, are all of the visual SWTOR art in the SWTOR timeline videos possibly in-universe art by Gnost-Dural? Given what you said and also because he is the narrator of those videos?

[unborn brook]

I would assume it would be stialized depictions from Gnost Dural. Since it is his project... Lol

[jovial ether]

Star Wars digitial art. Lol

[unborn brook]

Makes sense... They have sculptures, scrolls, tomes, books... Why not digital art?

[jovial ether]

Nice. If that were the case that is very interesting. I wonder where Gnost-Dural kept all of these digital art history videos by the time of the Third Great Galactic War. Could it be possible that thousands of years later in the Imperial or New Republic Era these records still exist?

[unborn brook]

Depends on how good censorship gets... (Especially in the Imperial era)

[bitter cedar]

I would imagine he would've stored them on Ossus and then from there its up in the air if they would be taken into imperial hands or republic, or could always explain it away by saying gnost dural had a personal library separate, elsewhere on Ossus. Especially since his entire archive series could probably be stored on one individual holocron, he could've made copies as well, regardless of imp/pub decisions.

[spare phoenix]

Not neccesarily Lore but like, I love the Agent's snarky attitude to marr

"Oh now you need my help?"

"If only someone hadn't agreed to disband imperial intelligence..."

"What's that? You got your intel from old Imperial Intelligence assets? How ironic"

[bitter cedar]

yes thats a great detail about imp makeb

[lunar forum]

Does anyone else feel like SOR felt rushed? The character arcs and just the story in general felt like it was over too soon and it could’ve been fleshed out more. The romances with Lana and Theron I also felt were a bit rushed and didn’t quite feel natural.

[west sequoia]

did you jump straight into it without doing the forged alliances arc

[lunar forum]

Is that the prelude? If so yes I did. I don’t believe I skipped anything, I like to play everything in order.

[winter trellis]

Thats basically every romance in this game imo

You hit the flirt button a few times and BAM you're lovers

[lunar forum]

that is a bit true actually

they act like they know each other really well when they've had like 3 conversations

[lunar forum]

i will say though the vette romance felt well paced, took her a long time to let her guard down

[void pelican]

any ideas for a lightsaber crystal color that says "very much still dark side but not quite a sith anymore"?

[unborn brook]

When in doubt, purple can work...

[lunar forum]

Maybe orange or like orangey red?

[jovial ether]

Saw this reddit post that was made years ago. Is this real? Or is this fake and the person is joking?

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/6qe6ny/semispoilers_so_apparently_the_entity_from_the/

[bitter cedar]

i think its a real screenshot, but its just a nameless npc on iokath while they were reusing assets for personnel. While iokath has a lot of unique assets, I feel like the friendly NPCs around the map have a weird feeling to them, odd spacing, lightsabers out with no stance while passive/not emoting, a lot of static standing npcs.

[jovial ether]

Interesting. Why would the creators reuse the Entity's model out of all people?

[unborn brook]

Because it’s a cool model... (That’s probably the answer)

[jovial ether]

Speaking of force entities, why does this Sith Entity you fight in the False Emperor flashpoint have Lord Kallig's mask? https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_Entity

[unborn brook]

Because it’s ancient fashion... Similar design motifs...

[west sequoia]

the broader answer is that its just a generic headgear model

[winter trellis]

Yeah you see dozens of random no name sith enemies wearing it throughout the game.

[subtle salmon]

Explains why Kallig has that head even when we play as different species like twi’lek and torguts

[west sequoia]

putting this in here since i want to say a bit more about it

warrior not only has the longest response, but to me, the only positive one

which does kinda play into his earlier manipulative behaviour towards the warrior

consular also doesnt seem as spiteful a response as the rest

[exotic crane]

I just found out there's unique dialogue if you keep Vette's shock collar on the whole game and then when you meet her again in KOTFE she has this to say..

[mossy turret]

Hey does anyone know what decision is the specific flag for dark side jaesa versus light side jaesa?

Is it killing or sparing her parents?

[west sequoia]

its choosing ds vs ls jaesa

[mossy turret]

That's not helpful

[mossy turret]

Never mind, there actually is a choice? Wild.

[exotic crane]

it's the choices you make on Hutta when confronting Nomen Karr

I don't know the SPECIFIC choice, but generally if you choose majorily ls choices during that you'll get LS jaesa

I actually don't think what you do to her parents or her masters on Tatooine do anything besides what she says

Though, I haven't played it too much to find out what truly triggers the LS and DS Jaesa, but I think its the choices you make on Hutta

[west sequoia]

no its straight up "do you want DS or LS jaesa"

[wheat mountain]

So I finally did the Smuggler storyline, which I went into aware it was unpopular, and had some thoughts.

Gonna talk broadly, so not really any major spoilers here.

It gives me the distinct impression it was based not only on Han Solo, but on the Brian Daley Han Solo Adventures, as there is a similar tone and wackiness to them, and even the plot echoes a loose basic skeleton:

• Han gets ripped off/played for a fool.
• Han makes unlikely ally.
• Han fights for the good guys and helps someone against their mutual enemy.
• Han shoots first.
• Han wins.
• (In the next book, Han has somehow squandered this win and is once against struggling to get by)

But there's a nuance beyond it I think is lost:

1. The good guys Han helps are frequently either victims (sometimes coded as either minorities or vulnerable figures) or genuinely well-meaning people, even Odumin - ruthless bureaucrat though he may be - is adamantly against slavery. So in the end, no matter how much Han himself breaks even and returns to his scoundrel ways, by helping them, you know Han has made the galaxy a better place. Evil figures, be they ruthless slavers or corporate thugs, are killed/defeated. This facet is almost completely absent from the Smuggler questlines except in a handful of planet-specific narratives.

2. Han does get made a fool of by villains quite a bit, but Han himself also comes up with creative and clever ways to get himself out of trouble. The Smuggler does not really do this, mostly they get made fun of (similar to Han), and that part is sometimes funny, except that then a quest giver has to give them an idea of how to solve their problem. The Smuggler themselves is mostly just a really good fighter rather than someone who thinks quickly on their feet and comes up with solutions.

The Smuggler is less Han Solo at Stars' End Han Solo, and more Book of Boba Fett Boba Fett.

For a more specific comparison:
||Odumin and Dodonna are both bureaucrats who recruit and then later betray our smuggler protagonists. But Odumin, for all his faults and ruthlessness, genuinely wants to make the galaxy a better place for others, and prioritizes stopping the slaving ring above all else, even targeting Han. Dodonna is just a senator who got greedy.||
||Further, the Smuggler never actually defeats Dodonna. She's already been betrayed by the Imperials, you're effectively rescuing her/executing her after someone else defeated her for you. Odumin shared in Han's triumph over the slavers in Han Solo's Revenge then betrayed him, and then Han outwitted him and escaped.||

[drowsy marsh]

"water is wet, and sky is blue " ahh response

[stone sparrow]

When red names have nothing better to do then respond to messages from last year…like dude find something better to do

[drowsy marsh]

blud there's nothing wrong with that

and i got things to do so don't worry 🙂

[jolly depot]

Is the tionese language still being used in the old republic era?

[stone sparrow]

Well the conversation is already come and gone

[drowsy marsh]

its up to you to end a conversation?

[coarse lintel]

Knock it off, both of you.

[wheat mountain]

From what I can tell, it's like Latin - a language that is no longer used, but it's not "lost". Words from it still used, and academics who study it can read it.
According to Wookieepedia, a lot of Greek words in Star Wars are actually "Tionese" holdovers, like Alpha, Beta, etc.

[bitter cedar]

interesting!

[west sequoia]

typing this here since i dont want to just dump what looks like a CIA document into genchat

when we first run into her, scorpio is operating under the flawed assumption that her codebase has been duplicated to create the GEMINIs, we later find out there's a common origin. presumably the first time she was tinkering around with the gravestone she found something that lined up with her own codebase which made the opportunity to investigate the gravestone further one of her priorities, but koth in his singleminded possessiveness didnt let her touch the ship's systems
the Eternal Throne itself probably didn't have much for her considering that was something Vitiate built via reverse-engineering and not an original Iokath creation, but it was an unknown to her and a variable to be ruled out, which is why she went for it; and when she's finally put all the pieces together and has a pathway to her origins that she's been lowkey searching for the entire time, she's actually happy
then on Iokath itself everything goes to shit but she has completely stopped acting against the PC

[void pelican]

Scorpio was never with us or against us

She was following her agenda that whole time, regardless of who it conflicted with

[west sequoia]

its still a 7.x thing #legacy-of-the-sith

[ivory flicker]

the emperor might be gone, but not his legacy. like the emperor was an echo from the very ancient sith, a legacy from the time of marka ragnos himself. so wil jadus and malgus become legacies of the sith themselves. possibly the last generation of sith that will be truly capable of following the sithcode on a level only the emperor did before them. the twi'lek's are both victims off a galaxy at war but have a pivotal role to play. the sister might be the one holding the last piece of an ancient legacy forged by vitiate and his followers. the brother might be the one who might choose for the rogua mandalorians or familie. the player might be crucible in this story. in the end the only chains you can break, are the ones you imagine. For a sith, death is a chain like any other. vitiate broke that chain for 1400 years. malgus broke that chains ones, Jadus, we don't know. but to break all chains, is to break the galaxy itself.

[winter trellis]

Amusingly the emperor didn't give a fuck about the sith

Means to an end and all but abandoned them for Zakuul

Heck he didn't even consider himself one

[unborn brook]

And when he reloaded his old save file, he says “I am master to all Sith” lol

[jovial ether]

Ummm....so what's the difference between a Void in the Force, like the one on Nathema that got the Force sucked dry out of it, and a Wound in the Force like the one present on Malachor V?

They both seem to be absences of the Force.

[unborn brook]

It could a classification difference... Nathema was intentional, while Malachor V was a side effect...

[west sequoia]

wounds are where some great tragedy has taken place, typically a large-scale loss of life
voids are where the Force is entirely absent

[jovial ether]

Hmmmm....so wounds are just the Force but distorted?

[west sequoia]

pretty much

[west sequoia]

so a comment about the old start-at-60 option and its character screen got me thinking, since it has the carbonite prison as its backdrop
what if what ended up as chapter 3 was actually the cold open to KotFE, and part of the imperfect carbonite freezing that's basically not mentioned again is you periodically blacking out and having flashbacks (to cover the Marr's ship stuff) or visions (to cover the weird dream stuff)

[unborn brook]

Would have been cool, but it’s too late for something like this...

[west sequoia]

yeah i dont think it would have ended up in a different place either, just an intriguing thought experiment for a variation on the journey

[bright phoenix]

maybe but I feel like the whole time skip thing was an obvious homage to mass effect 2

[west sequoia]

oh, no reason it couldnt have the timeskip

just an in media res presentation could have had a bit more interesting gameplay ideas follow through on it

[west sequoia]

going to answer that question here because im not really seeing why its 7.x relevant
the impression I've had for a long time is that the Republic were really only keeping an eye on Korriban and as you can see from this map there are several hyperspace routes throughout the Sith Worlds

a resettlement of Ziost could have easily bypassed Korriban and the watchful eyes of the Republic

[subtle salmon]

Yea can see that the Republic only were watching Korriban

[unborn brook]

Add to that Korriban is much closer to Dromund Kaas than Ziost is... Just move your forces covertly and you can resettle Ziost...

[exotic crane]

Hopefully they don't mess up my favorite Darth in SWTOR

[subtle salmon]

Jadus?

[exotic crane]

Yes

[jovial ether]

Yoooo, do we know what happened to Darth Bandon's head after being stored in a museum on Alderaan?

[unborn brook]

Umm... It gets kaboomed in A New Hope? lol

[jovial ether]

Bandon gone

[west sequoia]

@analog moth how specific do you want inquisitor story details

[analog moth]

Hi, can you tell me the general gist of the game

based on my role

[west sequoia]

there's extraordinarily little class variation after the base game content ends

[west sequoia]

if you want the cliff notes version:
inq ch1: relic hunting to complete an ancient ritual
inq ch2: ghost hunting for the pursuit of power
inq ch3: unfucking yourself after you drew too much power from the ghosts, then a grudge match with your boss
ilum: resource war against the republic for ilum's crystals, then malgus' usurper attempt
makeb: stealth mission for critical resources to stabilize the empire
forged alliances: revanite destabilization plot disguised as faction war acceleration
shadow of revan: kicking the shit out of the revanites so that they dont take over the galaxy
SoR inq class mission: investigating strange signals from unknown entities within the rishi maze, implications of extending your lifespan
ziost: the emperor is back and he's not happy, shit goes south very quick
kotfe: zakuul outta nowhere, 5 year timeskip, build up a rebellion to kick the shit out of zakuul
kotet: kicking the shit out of zakuul part 2
fractured alliances: power consolidation in the aftermath of zakuul, twists ensue
ossus: start of saboteur / loyalist choices; empire finds hidden colony of jedi to (try to) beat the snot out of
onslaught: empire stages massive military campaign against the republic, your job is to help or hinder as appropriate for saboteur / loyalist choice
loyalist inq that returns to the empire has their title of darth nox/occlus/imperius reinstated

[elfin anchor]

I kept thinking about this;
#legacy-of-the-sith message

Do we even know what Nul's relic on Dantooine's jedi academy that Malgus found actually was? Either way, its quite interesting that something made by Nul was found there. If the writers were to respect the chronology the implication would be that the relic could have been and put there at some point between the period Vodo Siosk Baas founded the Academy and the KotoR period in which the academy got bombed and thus stopped being officially used by the jedi (though, as we know, still got visited by them every now and then).

So i suppose this could, perhaps, give us a rough estimation of when Nul could have been around?

Oh wait yeah Malgus, before going to Dantooine, also got something from the jedi ruins on Ossus right? I assume Nul related somehow?

[west sequoia]

i dont think there's any indication as to what the relics were

at that stage in the story i think they were more going for a "proof that this individual actually existed" rather than any specific functionality of an object

personal theory, the stuff that the Jedi had on Ossus and Dantooine were objects related to her life as a Jedi

maybe Raniah considered Elom as a location but never got to do anything there as a Jedi

[elfin anchor]

could be

[void pelican]

I’d think that Raniah found Elom after her exile. She wasn’t Darth Nul until Tenebrae came knocking.

[jovial ether]

The one in the black robes and red eyes is Vitiate in Jedi Knight class story. The one in they more colored fancy robes with the orange eyes is the same Vitiate but in Echoes of Oblivion story. Any reason why they look so different and colored different?

[winter trellis]

updated model with more indepth texturing

[jovial ether]

And recoloring I assume too

[unborn brook]

Make Tenebrae look more unique...

[jovial ether]

It would be neat if we got the EOO Vitiate model to replace the old one in Jedi Knight story

[unborn brook]

But then it’ll be jaring... Seeing Vitiate be different but not Baras? Thanaton? The First Son?

[void pelican]

The first model is built on the same base as the player models and the generic npc models. The second one is a custom job and can do fancier things because he’s a one-off

[elfin anchor]

"This isn't Marka Ragnos's holocron. It belonged to Tulak Hord! The most mysterious Dark Lord of them all. It is the key to his long sought-after power! It means Tulak Hord must have built the tombs himself, long before Marka Ragnos or Naga Sadow were even born! And his power is finally in reach!"
―Lord Zash[1]

I genuinely didnt remember this wtf

So Tulak not only made Sadow's tomb (which, as seen in KotoR, was also the place where the rakata made star map was) but he also made Ragnos' tomb? Like, he had these two tombs built for sith lords that were not even born?

[unborn brook]

Maybe tombs were the cryptocurrency of the day? Lol

[elfin anchor]

Its just interesting to me that he made two tombs for some of the two most important figures of the original sith empire (and one of them was the one that straight up ended the golden age)

Ragnos, like Sadow's rival Ludo Kressh, was opposed to war with the republic because he believed that the Sith Empire was not strong enough to defeat the republic.

Sadow, as we know, didnt think that at all.

And Tulak Hord seems to have been part of a conflict between the jedi and the sith that predated the Great Hyperspace War (a distinction he seems to share with whoever the Sith lords involved in the Voss invasion were, as well as Terrak Morrhage and Terrak's master).

And, another interesting thing to me is the fact that on Sadow's tomb you've got the rakata star map and also Khem Val frozen in stasis (though, it would appear I guess, that Sadow never knew about Khem at the very least).

I suppose it'd be too schizo to say that maybe Hord was involved in the conflict at Voss and, while being there, learned about a vision or something which prophesized the end of the Golden Age of the Sith or something? Or at the very least, he learnt something which prompted him to make those tombs? (Perhaps could also explain why he put Khem in stasis inside Sadow's tomb?)

[west sequoia]

or he built an incredibly vast tomb complex for himself, and later lords repurposed parts of it

although im pretty sure marka ragnos' tomb on korriban is in a different part from tulak hord and sadow's

and sadow is actually buried on Yavin 4, not Korriban

and then really the whole thing is mining Egyptian culture and history, the whole thing is a ripoff of the Valley of the Kings which was a prominent burial site for centuries

[elfin anchor]

I dunno, the fact that even the game brings this up (talos does) seems to imply that there perhaps is more to it than just funny dark lords repurposing tombs

there is also the fact that the tombs have marka and sadow on them, like giant statues of them (though u could always say those were added after).

[elfin anchor]

that is not really relevant though. One can just say that the tomb seen on korriban is the tomb Sadow was meant to use had circumstances been different. The yavin tomb was just made after his exile.

Now, i dunno if before the war Sadow ever explored his korriban tomb

probably no because otherwise he would have met khem ig

[west sequoia]

well the warrior does pull their first lightsaber out of an inhabited sarcophagus, so someone was buried there

[elfin anchor]

thats true

i always liked to think thats where Shar Dakham was buried actually lmao (Sadow's general and the guy that later became the acting dark lord once ludo kressh died)

but yeah thats just pure speculation, in game we never really get any hints as to who that person inside might be. Like sure, i guess you could say it was just a repurposed tomb (and, well, all evidence does seem to suggest that someone repurposed it. Or perhaps that corpse predated sadow? I dunno)

[unborn brook]

We do know... An Unnamed Ancient Sith (Warrior, I think, if I’m remembering Baras’s words right)... Lol

[elfin anchor]

does baras say that guy is an unnamed sith?

[unborn brook]

Not literally, just an “Ancient Sith” (I’m not sure if he used warrior there too)

[elfin anchor]

i do remember how right after you pick up the lighstaber, some statues seemed to come to life kinda?

That was cool

[unborn brook]

A Sith Warrior with Sith Sorcerer friends? Lol

[elfin anchor]

Does sound like shar dakham when you put it that way

lol

[west sequoia]

would be the deepest of ironies if somehow Ludo Kressh had ended up interred in Sadow's tomb but I don't think there would've been much of him to bury

[unborn brook]

Would they have time to bury him?

[west sequoia]

yeah honestly that's the other thing on my mind

that was right at the end of the GHSW where the Republic were counter-invading and Vitiate was putting together his ritual plot on Nathema

[unborn brook]

Because if Shar lived, he’d likely be invited to Tenebrae’s month-long lunch date with Zildrog... Lol

[elfin anchor]

nah we see his corpse? in kotor 2 IIRC

[unborn brook]

Yeah... I believe it twas Ludo’s corpse in his proper tomb...

[elfin anchor]

seems like they just found whatever was left of him on his flagship ig lol

[elfin anchor]

maybe? Dont think we know much of this time period to know what exactly happened tbf. Like apparently the sith ekpt on fighting even after the nathema ritual

lots of stuff seemed to have been going on that we dont know about

Lord Garu had a rivalry with a mysterious guy known as the Patron and Garu, the last known sith to posses adas' holocron, ended up dying in ashas ree, super deep into sith space

[unborn brook]

I always felt that the Sith were scrambling until Tenebrae got a good handful of them to go blip on a 20-year journey (an Odyssey) to Dromund Kaas...

[elfin anchor]

I always liked to think that Shar didnt follow vitiate and was kind of left on his own with a handful of followers like Garu. In fact, I always thought it would have made way more sense for Shar Dakham to have been the sith spirit that declared exar kun the new dark lord simply because that guy was saying that the republic were driving the sith to extinction in his 'message' to Exar. I know some official sources say that guy is Marka Ragnos but that just doesnt fit with the dialogue

[unborn brook]

I felt Sadow left too early for Tenebrae’s message...

He (Sadow) retreated to Sith Space, saw Kressh, fought, then fled...

[elfin anchor]

No i mean Shar Dakham who took over after Ludo died

[unborn brook]

Lol

[elfin anchor]

This guy cannot be Marka Ragnos, despite what official sources say because Marka died before the war started. And it cant be Ludo because Ludo died like moments before the republic arrived to sith space

[unborn brook]

But he has Ragnos’s horns... Must be Ragnos... Lol

[elfin anchor]

lol

thats probably the reasoning whoever retconned this guy into being ragnos had tbh

[unborn brook]

No other Sith can wear it... Ragnos clearly decreed it for his use alone... And the other Sith didn’t repeal it... Lol

[elfin anchor]

but yeah. If they somehow managed to get Ludo's remains back and bury him I can honestly see them also managing to bury shar tbh

[unborn brook]

Well... Kressh was early in Republic invasion... Mr Shar, would have likely been later, right? When the Republic have a more stable foothold in Sith space...

[elfin anchor]

honestly not sure just how much the battle for korriban would have lasted

like, was it besieged or what? I do remember reading that shar did manage to repel the initial invasion

but after that its all kinda murky

[unborn brook]

So he’s last seen at the end of the initial invasion... Hmm

[west sequoia]

Ludo faked his death in the early stages of the war and ambushed Sadow when he retreated back to Korriban

however

i've also got a character i headcanoned as one of Ludo's guards who was ordered to go into hiding

[unborn brook]

Sounds like Ludo could pull a Jadus... Lol

[winter trellis]

He did

Then got killed for real

[elfin anchor]

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Elcho_Kressh

what a lame way to die

[unborn brook]

Poor guy... He’s been given an artifact that makes him almost-invincible via touch and he dies by overindulgence on the eve of his attack...

[elfin anchor]

ikr lol

[jovial ether]

Haha, speaking of that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/kotor/comments/19bqsco/not_trying_to_criticize_kotor_ii_or_anything_but/

[elfin anchor]

honestly I kinda wish they just said he was assassinated or somethig, sounds way cooler than dying from overindulgence

oh well

[unborn brook]

And the allies that would have followed him didn’t finish his work...

[unborn brook]

I don’t mind a Sith dying by overindulgence... Plagueis sort of did... He drank and passed out, allowing Sidious to do the zappy fingers...

[elfin anchor]

honestly? i always just thought that KotoR 2 just made the complete disintegration of the warship not canon. And tbh ig that makes sense since the two warships merely crashed into each other

you could also just say that ludo had his own verison of teh gauntlet he gave to elcho i guess

[jovial ether]

Maybe Ludo faked his death AGAIN, haha

[elfin anchor]

remmeber that gauntlet is apparently strong enough to protect people from kotor era TURBOLASERS

as seen with Lucien Draay

[unborn brook]

Ludo did make the Gauntlet of Younger Kressh, right? So... He could do it... Lol

[elfin anchor]

yeah, imo there is just no way he made one for his son but not for himself lol

[unborn brook]

LUDO KRESSH IS DARTH JADUS!!! Lol

Zhorrid could take after her mother... Lol

[jovial ether]

You know, he could actually be a descendant.

[elfin anchor]

yeah true. But idk i just kind of always liked to picture early GHW period Vitiate as being more cunning kind of sidious like in nature by assassinating rivals and such to consolidate his rule you know

[unborn brook]

Yeah... But it’s the remnants of the Golden Age... Overindulgence has to be how most young upper-class Sith died...

[elfin anchor]

potentially could explain how Vitiate ended up having Vodal Kressh around who seems to be a direct descendant of Ludo (though granted, for all we know, Elcho could have just had a brother or sister)

[jovial ether]

Is Exal Kressh desended from Vodal? And Vodal fro Elco, the son of Ludo?

[elfin anchor]

yeah

the encyclopedia says she descends from Vodal

no mention of elcho from any swtor related source tho afaik

[unborn brook]

Oh... Interesting... Her family was “tainted” before her betrayal...

[elfin anchor]

lemme find the screenshot

[jovial ether]

Did Vitiate do a massacre on the Kressh familyline after Exal died?

[elfin anchor]

Way I saw it was that after the vodal rebellion, vitiate never set foot on athiss for many years (especially because, as seen in in the west end games rpg sourcebook for tales of the jedi, we later learn that the republic sent some jedi to athiss after a mysterious group of sith cultists lured them there). Maybe he reestablished contact with the Kressh's at some point way later down the line like maybe around the time of the Galactic War?

[jovial ether]

Maybe.

Were the Kressh family extinct after Exal's death? Did Vitiate massacre them all?

[elfin anchor]

Dunno tbh

[elfin anchor]

seems to imply there is someone out there tho

[unborn brook]

Likely... They spawned two threats to Tenebrae... So it’s likely Tenebrae wiped them and whoever remained hid...

[jovial ether]

True, but later SWTOR stuff seems to condradict many of the Encylcopedia's stuff unfortanately.

[elfin anchor]

yeah, but then again this is all we have on the topic sadly

[unborn brook]

However we see no Kressh in game...

[elfin anchor]

that too

[unborn brook]

Now I wonder about Sadow and his lineage... Lol

[elfin anchor]

def killed by Ludo while Naga Sadow was fighting in republic space

[unborn brook]

So survivors are in hiding, got it... Lol

[elfin anchor]

probably not. I mean if there were some i imagine they would have gotten lynched or something by other sith for bringing ruin to the empire

[unborn brook]

Time to look at the enslaved Sith population then...

[elfin anchor]

First of all, Ludo surely would have been incinerated in the explosion of his ship, reduced to ashes, even if not, his body surely would have been unrecognizable and really destroyed from the explosion, and, second, of all, if somehow anything remained of him after the explosion, who would look for it floating in the middle of space?
Well tbf remember that Shar Dakham did briefly manage to drive the republic off the horuset system (the system korriban is in).

The body, ig if there was anything remaining, could have been recognized perhaps by its force presence kinda?

[jovial ether]

True.

[elfin anchor]

and remember that, even if we take the old sith's highly ritualistic behaviour from the equation for a sec, as they surely would have tried to give ludo a burial, sith ships also seemed to have had quite a lot of relics

remember the dark holocron that odan urr found inside an abandoned ship? Surely some sith could have been curious enough to scavenge the remains of ludo's fleet to see if perhaps there was anything of similar value there. (and, ig, this is ignoring the funny little hypothesis we had earlier that maybe ludo had a gauntlet like his son's)

[unborn brook]

We know Sith are curious enough to plunder Sith tombs... It isn’t a stretch they’d search a downed ship...

[elfin anchor]

especially if said ship was the flagship used by a dark lord such as ludo ye

[elfin anchor]

also you know there is something thats been on my mind for a while and I just dont know how to justify it in universe.

Why did Revan even claim to be a sith? yes, i get it. Out of universe, sith bad guys with their cool red sabers sells well.

But in universe it just seems weird? Maybe even politically suicidal from an in universe point of view. Decades prior the galaxy saw the brotherhood of the sith go monke through the galaxy:
You have the Krath literally come up with the idea of putting people in carbonite and hanging them on walls as decorations. Them creating illusions that make their victims see awful stuff.

You have the Krath, and Mandalorians, start going monke on civilian populations and taking slaves.

Then you have the Sith using superweapons such as the Dark Reaper that literally uses souls as batteries for its turbolasers.
You have Exar Kun order the Krath fleet to cause the Cron Supernova.
You have Exar Kun coming up with armies of ugly creatures such as terentateks and giant worms that devastate entire cities and shrug off blaster cannon fire.

And you've got Exar Kun literally interrupting the trial of Ulic Qel Droma, using a spell to paralyze the senate and then turns the chancellor into a meat puppet that repeats what he says before he dies. Then he proceeds to duel his master and kill him. All of this, probably, live on the holonet.

While, granted, Ulic and Revan did seem to share similar goals and motivations (and perhaps a lot of in universe sith apologists could try to shift most of the blame for the war crimes to exar and the Ketos). It just doesnt make sense to me why Revan would publicly claim to be a sith lord mere decades after that war happened and knowing full well a lot of his high ranking officers were vets of that war too (such as Saul Karath)

[clever ibex]

I'd put it down to Vitiate's mindfuck I guess
Never really read much into it

[winter trellis]

Because Revan like many DSers mistakenly believed they could become a "good" sith

means to an end, for the greater good, that kind of junk

but in the end what always happens is they become no different from the thing they were fighting against

[elfin anchor]

i mean, yeah, kinda like Ulic. But like, if he wants his movement to gain momentum, wouldnt it have been better to at least try to keep his Sith influence a bit more hidden?

[winter trellis]

in this case it worked for him because a lot of his most devout followers felt abandoned by the jedi

and a lot of his soldiers were ultimately loyal to him and his entourage, not to the republic

so by establishing themselves as something else besides that it drew in people that were frustrated by the latter

[elfin anchor]

true true, he also took some fleets with him to the unknown regions didnt he?

the revan novel just made me think that only he and malak went there

[winter trellis]

the revan novel is lacking to say the least

[elfin anchor]

perhaps if other soldiers got influenced by Vitiate or his sith, that could explain why Revan's sith gained momentum so suddenly. Bunch of war vets come back talking about how cool the sith are lol

[unborn brook]

Playing KOTOR 2, to me at least, Atton’s dialogue makes it sound like only Revan and Malak left...

[elfin anchor]

This is what one of the jedi masters says

Dorak: Instead of returning after the war's end, the ships under Revan's command went deep into unexplored space. They claimed to be searching for the last remnants of the Mandalorian fleet. All contact was lost. For many months it was assumed some great disaster had befallen the entire fleet. Everyone thought they were dead. There were unsubstantiated rumors of Revan and Malak being seen on a number of different planets during these months – scattered sightings that were never confirmed.

Dorak: Three years ago, Revan and Malak returned at the head of a massive invasion fleet. Revan had assumed the title of Sith Lord; the hero had become a conqueror.

[elfin anchor]

Found this in the kotor campaign guide by wizard's of the coast

[hollow yacht]

the republic is kind of incompetent imo

[winter trellis]

They got their ups and downs

Like any disjointed democratic group

[eternal spire]

I have a question. Trying to remember decisions my consular did- are there any major story choices in the consular story?

Like notable/large ones

[crude tundra]

help, is chiss names Family'given name'rank/social satus and core name is 2-3-1 in the middle part?

having trouble rembering

and i confused myself tbh

[meager forge]

Family'Given'Social

Core = Family'Given'Social = Lygivens

[crude tundra]

ah ok ty

[west sequoia]

my impression is that core names are more syllabic than a strict "this many letters"

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Shah'adrom'illithyr just looking for interesting examples, this guy seems to have a core name that doesnt include all of his given name

[crude tundra]

would a exile character just be given-status?

oh thats cool

[west sequoia]

i think because of the voice acted nature, a lot of swtor chiss who are presented with both tripartite and core names have core names that are fairly simple to pronounce

[crude tundra]

Rumi'cavpet. used translator for exile and decided since hes exiled/stripped of title/family all he would have is his givenname

[prisma portal]

just like Varth said, there is no set amount or distribution of letters :)

[elfin anchor]

Would Soa's official title within the infinite empire have been Predor?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Predor

[kindred moss]

I hope we can have some short stories now...I can live with them if there's still no new story content

[elfin anchor]

I'd like some books or comics again ngl but ik thats just super unlikely

[kindred moss]

I don't mind if they collect all short stories and make them a book either lol

I miss those mini stories

[elfin anchor]

yeah that'd be cool. I just want more stories in the time period though cause its has a lot of story potential i was always a huge fan of the idea of a galactic cold war

yet that specific period isnt that explored in other media like there are some stories here and there but thats it

[kindred moss]

Yeah same. Love to explore different stories from different people in different times. That will be cool if we can learn more

[bitter cedar]

itd be cool to get some more codex entries as journals if they make another big open world to explore with lore to find

[kindred moss]

We need more lore object hunts

[jovial ether]

Wait, Traya was mind controlled? What does it mean "falls under its seductive spell"?

[west sequoia]

dark side corruption

[jovial ether]

So she is not mind-controlled? Because apparently she tried to resist it but sucumbed anyways

[unborn brook]

Like other Jedi who read/use Sith Artifacts, they tend to be seduced by the Dark Side...

[elfin anchor]

I didnt think of it literally mind controlling her

anywya what i found interesting was basically what this text, 'The truths of the cosmos' contained. And how this text was made by a sith of what woudl later be retconned to be Vitiate's Empire

originally the Trayus academy was made by the True Sith aka Vitiate's Empire

[jovial ether]

I am confused, when they mean "Sith sorcerers" were they actually the Sith assasins or she was just reading books left behind long ago by Sith sorcerers?

[elfin anchor]

the ones that wrote the texts

[jovial ether]

So the Sith assasins just lead her there I assume

Was this before or after Revan's redemption?

[elfin anchor]

that is a good question

I've been wondering about this too for some time

[jovial ether]

Hmmm...what did you interpret her being under some spell as?

[elfin anchor]

this is from a promotional site for kotor 2 i believe that tried to make a timeline of the events leading up to kotor 2 (and while it does contain some very gross errors such as claiming Vodo Siosk Baas was alive during the mando wars overseeing the dantooine academy, it does have some very interesting bits of lore. And, funny enough, it has Exar Kun pull a Darth Nul tier feat lol but thats besides the point)

https://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotorii/chronicles.php

[unborn brook]

I’d guess after R’s R... Since I think KOTOR 2 said Malachor V was used by Revan... (If I’m remembering rightly)

[elfin anchor]

but basically, it seems to place Kreia's arrival to Malachor as taking place after KotoR 1?

[elfin anchor]

yeah

[jovial ether]

How could she "learn on Malachor V for several years" if she just came upon it right after KOTOR I?

[elfin anchor]

i had this in mind:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/be-under-s-spell

[unborn brook]

According to the site you linked, yeah...

[unborn brook]

Because KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 are years apart...

[jovial ether]

Interesting. Yeah, I could see that. Btw, who were the Sith Sorcerers

[jovial ether]

But Kreia got banished from Nihilus and Sion one year after KOTOR I though

At least from what I remember

[unborn brook]

Nameless John McNobody...

[unborn brook]

And where did you read/hear of this?

[elfin anchor]

which IS quite odd, especially after the retcons post SWTOR cause in the revan novel Revan didnt immediatly peace out from the known galaxy. He remained there for some years. I guess Kreia never could interact with Redeemed Revan because she had already been exiled by then and instead was just tracing pre brainwash revan's path

[jovial ether]

Kreia was no longer around in 3,952 BBY, and several years usually means seve or more years later.

[elfin anchor]

we dont know, I assume members of Vitiate's Empire or/and maybe Vitiate himself was one of these sorcerers. This is one of the reasons why i posted that screenshot btw. I wonder how what that text Kreia read aligns with Vitiate's view of the universe basically.

[unborn brook]

And that contradicts what I said how?

[jovial ether]

No, it doesn't

I should have been clearer

[elfin anchor]

then again, regarding the kreia thing

JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there. Guided by Kreia's influence, Sith assassins once again begin to emerge silently from Malachor V and strike at isolated Jedi across the Republic, capturing some Jedi to turn to the dark side, and slaying those that resist. Taken to the dark side world of Malachor V to be fed to the planet's dark energies, these Jedi husks create even more assassins and DARK JEDI, feeding the planet's hunger.

Revan's last known location was Malachor here. Obviously we know this just isnt true based on whats seen in the revan novel (one of the many contradictions from that book. Another one i can think of is how Revan never talked to Carth yet in K2 Carth says they had a talk in which revan warned him about a threat in the UR).

[elfin anchor]

whats the source on this btw

i thought that happened a year before kotor 2

[jovial ether]

Could be too. Let me look

Okay, seem like Wookieepedia says it but there is no source linked. So I could be wrong

[elfin anchor]

replaying the jk story rn

some very weird things here

1. The Jedi Knight character has no clue about the destruction of Taris. Thats odd, even Var Suthra is surprised. Guess the Jedi Order censored a lot of story for padawans
2. Var Suthra says that during the time of KotoR there were no planetary shields. I may havge to later check the essential guide to warfare cause i recall it mentioned examples of planetary shields pre kotor. And also, in kotor 2 we do see planetary shield technology dont we? The Telos restoration project relied on planetary shields basically to restore the planet, one section of the world at a time.
3. Godera says that one single ship, the Leviathan, destroyed Taris but in kotor 1, when we escape from Taris, we literally see many ships over that world

i also could swear that even one of the codex entries here claimed a fleet destroyed taris, not just the leviathan

[cerulean scarab]

Did I ever share my "SARESH IS FUCKING DEAD!" folder here?

[hollow yacht]

Oh sht lol

[void pelican]

remind me

does the swtor imperial guard (vitiate's) take force sensitives?

[kindred moss]

from novel

[west sequoia]

considering that force sensitives are mandated to be sent to korriban and trained as sith, I'm gonna say no

[elfin anchor]

i really wonder if palpatine's royal guards also had a similar connection to their emperor

cause thats genuinely cool

[jovial ether]

Okay, this is pretty much KOTOR lore and almost not at all SWTOR lore, but I would like to hear some arguments and/or opinions on this argument matter I made some time ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/1kzoe8m/did_darth_nihilus_actually_survive_star_wars/

[elfin anchor]

ahh before i check this

is this referencing that one line from the complete encyclopedia?

[jovial ether]

HAHA, yes

[elfin anchor]

hahaha

yeah that confused me so much as well

[jovial ether]

I actually have an argument to prove the Encyclopedia wrong, but I am open to anyone who believes the Encyclopedia is true too if they have a good argument

[elfin anchor]

Honestly I always thought Nihilus died for good in kotor 2 not only is it thematically better but like

nihilus, already as of kotor 2, was basically a spirit, a very hungry one, literally attched to his clothes/armor

so when it gets defeated, thats a spiritual death

[jovial ether]

Anyone else have any thoughts on the post?

Anyways, I have another thing to ask

Do you guys honestly think Vitiate/Valkorion/Tenebrae is a good or at least a decent character in terms of writing and characterization? I am on some KOTOR Discord servers and some seem to really despise him

[elfin anchor]

I dont think so

He had a good backstory, like the guy thats the shadow emperor while a bunch of other stuff is going on sounds cool. But I dont really enjoy his character that much, especially not when he is valkorion it doesnt feel like this guy is actually vitiate

[jovial ether]

Makes sense. I am personally ambivalent to Vitiate as a character. He has interesting lore, but I do not adore him as a character

[elfin anchor]

ye, almost my feelings exactly. Like I genuinely find it very interesting to think of what he and his empire were up to during, say, the great sith war

but as a character? He aint great at all imo

[jovial ether]

Yup.

[elfin anchor]

are you familiar with the character of cronal and with the sorcerers of rhand btw?

[jovial ether]

I do indeed Crimson Emperor. I know the Sorcerers of Rhand's philosphy, their motives, etc.. Cronal I know about very well too

[elfin anchor]

okay, well I always did like to think that either vitiate or the dread masters manipulated stuff behind the scenes in a similar way as to how cronal and the sorcerers did it

With Darksight, Cronal could create the future.
He was familiar, in concept, with the pale shadow-imitation of Darksight that had supposedly been employed by some exceptional Jedi and certain among the Sith—the pathetic conjuror’s trick they called battle meditation. Through massive concentration and expenditure of energy, they claimed to subtly influence the course of a single combat, or, for the most powerful among them, an engagement of greater forces, like armies in collision or fleet-to-fleet battles. They claimed that their simplistic Force-powered visualization of a desired outcome would subtly shift probabilities and grant them luck, that it would inspire their allies and demoralize their enemies. Of course, these claims could never be proven, or disproven; any charlatan might simply take credit for any random victory, or ascribe a defeat to the will of the Force—or a supposedly more powerful Force-user practicing his or her own “battle meditation” in service to the opposite side …
Battle meditation. Idiots.
Anyone trained by the Rhandites could have told them: any and all battles, all wars, the very concept of battle itself, served but a single end. Their only function was destruction. Only by setting one’s will upon pure destruction could victory be achieved.
When your will was fixed steadily upon the Way of the Dark, the Dark itself became your partner in all that you did.

[jovial ether]

Yeah. Their "Dark" concept has always been an enigma to me. What IS it? How does it compare to the Force.

[elfin anchor]

iirc it was sort of the overall concept of entropy

its kind of weird yea

[jovial ether]

Hmmm....what IS entropy? I am sorta bad at science, lol

[elfin anchor]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entropy

a
: the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity
Entropy is the general trend of the universe toward death and disorder.
—James R. Newman

this is how the concept was used in shadows of minodr

mindor

[jovial ether]

Cool! I wonder if the Force itself expires eventually. Maybe the Dark is the concept of the Force aging

[void pelican]

ahh, I see

so not force sensitive themselves but bound to the emperor and able to draw on his connection

[jovial ether]

Has the novel ever made it clear if Captain Yarri was a pureblood or not by the way? I remember vaguely it desrcibes her as "Sith".

[winter trellis]

I don't think so. They were extremely well trained and indoctrinated dudes from the military.

[elfin anchor]

i mean so are vitiate's are they not?

[winter trellis]

Yes but the emperor being a sith lord wasn't public knowledge in palpy's empire

So just as a precaution I bet they didn't have any connection to him

[elfin anchor]

i mean, the royal guard were at byss too remember

i was gonna say maybe shadow guards and sovereign protectors could have known but then if there was a link between palps and his guards, palps would have seen carnor jax's betrayal a mile away

[winter trellis]

They also existed before his declaration of being emperor

Just weren't called royal guards yet

[elfin anchor]

the royal guard isnt the same as the red guard though

like

[narrow mulch]

@elfin anchor has become a Rising Star of the Sith Empire for reaching rank 5.

[elfin anchor]

the royal guard took members of the sun guard (palpatine's mercenaries and those were 100% aware palps was a sith)

[winter trellis]

I mean those dudes that followed him around when he was chancellor

[elfin anchor]

the senate guard?

[winter trellis]

They looked exactly like the royal guard...just blue

[elfin anchor]

yeah the senate guard. Im talking about the red guard which looked like exactly the imperial royal guard and were also around back then they were palp's private guardsmen

[winter trellis]

Is that some EU thing you never see in the movies

Thats not a knock against it

Just would explain why I never heard of it

[elfin anchor]

you see the red guard in the movies

they do show up in the eu a bit, i cant remember if they show up in AotC but in rots they do

they are the guys that yoda one taps

[subtle salmon]

They were the ones in RotJ as well

The guards Palpatine dismissed

[elfin anchor]

no

red guards =/= imperial royal guards

[west sequoia]

well its been long stated that Vitiate's Sith Empire had lots of manipulative influence against various external factions, most notably the Mandalorians

though that was more political machinations than outright Force control
I have had a theory for a while that Vitiate manipulated Scourge's vision to one of a many possible futures, to pivot him against Revan who at that moment was a true threat to Vitiate's longevity

[elfin anchor]

i like to think it could have been a sort of mixture of both actually. Actual political manipulation with force stuff (well, we do know he manipulated mandalore the ultimate with the force, though i believe the manipulation was far deeper than just mere mind control)

[west sequoia]

"hey bro this war you're planning for, do it now, the republic are massively underprepared"

mandu was probably just trying to shift the blame on his deathbed

never mind the thousand+ years of mandos raiding the republic all on their own initiative

[elfin anchor]

nah its even deeper trust, i'll post what i mean if u want but its basically a bunch of screenshots

but basically

[west sequoia]

my point is more people bring up mandalore the ultimate's involvement with the sith and ignore the fact that the mandalorians had been attacking the republic for centuries already

[elfin anchor]

yeah no, that wasnt what i was going for

[west sequoia]

in fact the earliest documented mandalorian raid against republic territory was more than a century before vitiate's birth

[elfin anchor]

its basically how the neo crusader movement had shady beginnings already. Not only were its founders people who heavily disliked Kun's sith but the overall culture mando crusaders had was completely alien to traditional mandalorian culture.

Ultimate too employed tactics, strategies that most traditional mandos saw as just too non mandalorian.

Its even stated in the kotor campaign guide rpg that Ultimate's background is completely unknown. And, way after kotor 1 canderous meets a taung which claimed Ultimate was an usurper with sith ties basically.

like im just thinking neo crusaders were essentially a psyop by the Sith

based just on how much the kotor campaign guide emphasized how alien neo crusaders were to mando culture at the time

i'll post the screencaps to get the point across but it may be a bit too many messages so apologies in advance i hope someone enjoys the read tho

[unborn brook]

So... Could Cassus Fett have been the “Sith ties” before Tenebrae’s emissary mind tricked The Ultimate?

(And I mean before the Revan Novel made it Tenebrae’s emissary)

[void pelican]

they looked the exact same

its the evolution of the same entity

[elfin anchor]

that doesnt mean anything though. Imperial guards are an evolution of the red guards but to claim that imperial guards are the same thing as red guards is wrong

absolutely not the same quality

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Guard

the red guard was reorganized into the imperial guard, much in the same way other parts of the republic got reorganized. My point is that the red guard of the republic period was different to the imperial guard in the same way one differntiates clone troopers from stormtroopers, or the republic navy from the imperial navy. Sure they are essentially evolutions but their new differences/changes makes them overall different

[midnight dune]

Why does no one get intimidated by the equivalent of force Jesus in SWTOR?

[winter trellis]

But was that established in the movies or is that an EU thing you'd only know if you looked it up

Becausee knowing how George mostly ignored such things, that could easily have just been the IG in his mind

[elfin anchor]

i dont really care

[elfin anchor]

i dunno

like

they are mentioned in the visual dictionaries, if that counts for anything which idk

i dont really know about the behind the scenes stuff for rots when it comes for this sort of thing and I dont really care much about what George's input is

[winter trellis]

either way

kinda feels like one of those "IG-88 was in the death star computer during ROTJ" story bits

[elfin anchor]

i dont really see how tbh

like at least you see the guards on screen

or do you mesan them being Red Guards instead of IGs

[winter trellis]

ye

average joe shmoe is gonna think it's the IG

[void pelican]

because he's not?

idunno who his dad is but if his mom says there wasn't one i'm not gonna call her a liar to her face

[unborn brook]

Force Jesus in SWTOR? Who, Revan? If so, Revan isn’t Force Jesus...

[void pelican]

oh

oh i got my wires crossed with anakin

revan was just some gal who went through a lot of shit

[unborn brook]

Fem Revan can be so funny... (Since Male Revan’s canonically Light Side; Fem Revan has to be Dark Side, right?)

[midnight dune]

The Hero of the Jedi/ Emperor's Wrath

Game tells you how strong in the force you are

But bum from across the street tries to mug you

[unborn brook]

The space bums don’t know you’re Space Jesus... They just think you’re the average Jedi/Sith...

[west sequoia]

the average jedi or sith should still easily dismantle a nar shaddaa street bum

"we've trained for this!" you've trained for someone that can see the future? that has a plasma sword that can cut through just about anything with little to no effort, including flesh and bone? you've trained for someone that can rip your spine out with their mind?

[midnight dune]

Also it's worse in the KOTFE

Literally no one even acknowledges you are jedi/sith anymore

A street bum should automatically shit themselves at the sight of a ignited lightsaber

The man with a biblical amount of kills somehow isn't treated with more fear

Also average force sensitive player character never failed a mission

Get sent to take an entire space station? A non issue

[elfin anchor]

its worse when you play a character such as Nox

literal member of the dark council, supposedly you, like many other sith, should have a strong dark side presence right? No one says a thing about that instead they immediatly expect you to lend them a hand and be compassionate.

[midnight dune]

You lose all military importance

[elfin anchor]

yeah

koth should know that you were a member of the dark council, literally one of the worst of the worst right? Absolutely a known war criminal

[midnight dune]

Wait, even as a light side sith?

What does Nox do?

[elfin anchor]

i mean sith generally speaking torture people for the sake of it, kill people who surrender, etc. This should be well known as they themselves brag about it every now and then. Why would Koth expect one of the leaders of the sith empire to be like "damn war crimes do be kinda bad man". And also if your character has enough dark side points to get the title of nox thats because you've been an asshole through your entire playthrough, i never played a light side sith though from what i've seen its just a less asshole sith but still overall an evil guy

[midnight dune]

My Sith is pure light side and generally patient. Just a patriot for the empire

I do plan to kill Baras, he is too much of a threat

He has a huge spy network

[elfin anchor]

yeah as a warrior it makes more sense imo

light side sith warrior

or light side jedi knight

[midnight dune]

I only got accidentally dark side points once

[elfin anchor]

are the two i think are the most likely to be the outlander

maybe a case could be made for the jedi consular too i suppose

[midnight dune]

Asking for the slave camp coordinates on Dromund Kaas. I didnt say I will rip their heads out through their asses

So I have no idea how that was worth 100 dark side points

I made my light side points back soon after

Also why is killing Darth Baras a dark side option?

Dude is dangerous

Unless, the force wants him to live?

[west sequoia]

because its killing

the only time a kill is a LS option is when the counterpart is to directly torture someone

[subtle salmon]

Does seem nuts Koth expects a DS Sith to be good

Though feel a LS Sith might have every reason to go DS against Zakuul

[elfin anchor]

you know after reading the kotor comics one cant help but wonder if perhaps, retroactively speaking, there was more to this scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6aY0mz5m-4

Malak had been on Taris before many times (as seen in the comics. And think he also was present when revan finally liberated it too?). Taris was also basically what started the mandalorian wars, Malak got captured by the mandalorians and experimented on by Demagol while deployed in one of Taris' colonies to fend off the mandalorians

also why is Saul hesitating to bomb Taris, even bringing up how there'd be civilian casualties, when he previously bombed Telos in a similar way?

[brazen nimbus]

We needed some morals to make that scene even more intense

[elfin anchor]

its just funny cause when you later interact with Saul, he seems to have already rationalized his actions

like he doesnt regret them that much. iirc he was like "oh well. Shit happens"

[subtle salmon]

Think he was more concerned about his own men

[elfin anchor]

he did mention civilians, not just his own men

[pseudo pasture]

is there a way to betray the republic as republic trooper class? I haven't found anything about it yet, and idk wher to ask here :/

[pseudo pasture]

like how the imperial agent can defect to sis under certain conditions

[west sequoia]

not as class content

[little sable]

really ? Just after Ossus when you can choose to became a saboteur? im sure that you can do lot of things in the story which goes against the Republic's ideology and or your Commander's will if you pick dark side options in the dialogues, or even light side option sometimes 🤔

[unborn brook]

Defection to the Empire is Onslaught territory...

Being a morally bankrupt Jedi/Republic-aligned personnel is the most sabotage you can do...

[little sable]

And Onslaught starts with Ossus, so you have to choose bein a saboteur or not before Ossus, but honestly you can side with the Empire on Iokath sooner (damn Quinn 🙄 )

[elfin anchor]

so there is something i dont completely understand about the JK Voss story

so the emperor's ritual needs a bunch of deaths to occur simulatneously to begin. Thats why you go to Belsavis right? To stop the death cult from blowing up belsavis and also some solar systems nearby. That easily could have caused trillions+ deaths. Fine.

But voss? The plan was to use Fulminiss to spread a madness plague? how would that accomplish the billions of simultaneous deaths required for the ritual?

[west sequoia]

as we see from nathema and ziost, his ritual isnt picky

animal and plant life works just as well

[unborn brook]

Machines too...

[unborn brook]

“Violence and slaughter are unleashed” - Laeras-Wu (ancient Voss mystic in the Shrine of Healing)

“A corrupted ritual unleashes a plague of madness that drowns Voss in blood.” -Valen Da, Voss mystic we follow in the Knight Story.

It’ll be like Ziost, but instead of Imperials and the Sixth line, it’ll be outsiders killed/killing the ritually induced insane native Voss population. Fulminiss’s ritual is near the center of Sel-Makor’s being. Since Sel-Makor is the Voss-Gormak conflict personified, the Voss and Gormak are linked to it. Pull that thread, drive them insane, and you’ll have mass slaughter...

[elfin anchor]

but not instantaneous

i thought that was the whole point

[west sequoia]

neither nathema nor ziost were instantaneous

[little sable]

https://tenor.com/view/swtor-swtor-dance-swtor-planet-pink-ziost-gif-24668311

its weird that Tenebrae eats just the peel of the onion 🧅 , while we only cut out that part 🤔🍴

[unborn brook]

Well... The peel has the organisms he’s hungry for... The rest of the planet’s rock... Lol

[little sable]

next time i will think about that when im licking things 😄

[elfin anchor]

But I dont think they were related to what the Emperor wanted to do in the Jedi Knight Story. Scourge says that Vitiate has been planning this ritual for centuries and, to begin, he needs a bunch of simulatenous deaths

and that once those deaths happen, there is no way to stop the ritual

[little sable]

Sith ritual ? do you mean like this ⤵️❔

https://tenor.com/view/no-bones-cult-sith-dread-palace-dread-council-gif-26126897

[void pelican]

its like how he got his mojo back from the operations against fake Revan on Yavin 4

But the general scenario is more or less this:

• V’s “consume everything” ritual needs a catalyst to start it
• Because of the scale of the ritual, regular war will not suffice
• Send a few people after some known potential catalysts on the front lines; only one needs to win to jumpstart the ritual

the Dread Masters could have made a catalyst on their own but they sat things out for some reason

[elfin anchor]

way I saw it was that by act 2 vitiate was too powerful. Orgus' spirit says as much at the beginning of act 2. Its as if he reached a sort of threshold that would have perhaps allowed his kill everything ritual to start.

Maybe thats why back during the great war when vitiate had the dread masters they didnt do anything like that and create their own catalyst. Vitiate himself just wasnt powerful enough for such a ritual yet. And when he finally was, the dread masters were imprisoned and shortly thereafter vitiate had to swap bodies twice (SW story and JK story) which severely weakened him)

[elfin anchor]

looks like people forgot this is how miralukas look like

[brazen nimbus]

Interesting

[elfin anchor]

ye i was rechecking some stuff and that one tales story (Unseen, Unheard) that featured visas had her look completely different even before she met Nihilus

[jovial ether]

The bridge of Nihilus's ship the Ravager is pretty more wrecked and ruined than the bridge we see in the game.

[elfin anchor]

he just had his crew fix it

trust

🗣️

[little sable]

it is still biologically interesting that why do they still have eye "holes" in the skull instead of having biger brain for example, or more efficient nose 🤔

[brazen nimbus]

Oh god

That looks creepy

Reminds me of voldemort for some reason……

[little sable]

remind me a mole (never seen the HP movies 😅 )

https://tenor.com/view/mole-gif-24182780

[west sequoia]

half-miraluka still possess their eyes so maybe they're a comparatively recent branch from baseline humanity

[little sable]

i never played them in SWTOR otherwise, they are not even unlocked, like the sith race 😅

[elfin anchor]

huh i just found out that the dashade apparently supported exar kun during the great sith war, contrary to what the dialogue with that one dashade u find on yavin has u believe

i guess when the cron supernova happened, Exar didnt just betray the Krath but the dashade too

[little sable]

he metioned that the has relations with Exar Kun, but wait, Khem Val and Dashade are the same person oor just the same specie ? (sry i played only the character story line of the Inquisitor, and did not continued)

Oh the guy from Yavin 4 called "Ak’Ghal Usar", looks like i totally mixed up things 😅

But Dashade is Khem Val is not it ? i mean without the granny spirit

[brazen nimbus]

Dashade i think is the species

Or it’s a title

[little sable]

you are the expert, i never really liked / cared about these guys 😄

[brazen nimbus]

I’m really not an expert

[little sable]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-maul-darth-maul-force-choke-doubt-gif-18474488

Guide me Master! 😭

[elfin anchor]

Dashade are a species

Khem is a dashade that predates Ak'ghal usar by i think almost a thousand years

[weak pagoda]

is it here to discuss/ask question about the game lore?

[turbid peak]

Yes, you can ask questions about lore here

[weak pagoda]

SWTOR have cinematic trailer CGI Like very cool and famous. But each of these trailer represent which update of the game. I know There's 6 Expansion Update. What does it correspond??

[west sequoia]

there werent cinematic trailers for RotHC, SoR or Onslaught

[weak pagoda]

Other Question!!! There's multiple Class in the base game. I think, each one have a story. Does the Expansion have multiple story as well or there's no more class story, only One Main Story?

[unborn brook]

RotHC is the only one with major differences between factions...

SoR only have 1 mission that’s unique for each class

KOTFE-KOTET are basically one unified story

Onslaught and LotS both start with two faction stories, differences hinge on Player’s home faction, before returning to a unified story.

[weak pagoda]

thanks!!

[little sable]

I understand that non-force users cant have force user combat style, but why a force user cant have a shooter class as a 2nd combat style❔🤨

everyone can pick a gun and aim 🤷

(except Stormtroopers of course)

[void pelican]

because its uncivilized

[little sable]

Soo the 99,9 % of the galaxy population is barbaric because they are not force sensitive ? Are you a Sith ? 😄

[small lava]

for that phrase no, but probly. Obi-Wan 😅

[elfin anchor]

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Elom_system

tfw revan actually went to elom at some point during the mando wars

[little sable]

https://tenor.com/view/baby-yoda-grogu-mandalorian-star-wars-cute-gif-20332433

[bright phoenix]

Kreia perceives it as a puppet master and wants to get rid of it whereas Vitiate wants to absorb, saturate or control as much of it as possible ("becoming everything" and spreading himself everywhere) --both goals essentially strive toward gaining more agency, eliminating randomness, mystery, unseen influences.

[elfin anchor]

makes sense

[robust thorn]

Hello i just wanted to ask if the post-vanilla content has common quest story for each side ?

Like, i want to play as a sith inquisitor with a friend who's playing sith knight, will we have the same question post-act III ?

[unborn brook]

Rise of the Hutt Cartel - Faction stories
Shadow of Revan - Faction stories with same structure and very similar events
Knights of the Fallen Empire/Eternal Throne - Same story
Onslaught - Faction stories with similar structure before morphing into the same story
Legacy of the Sith - Faction stories with similar structure before morphing into the same story

[weak pagoda]

good resume, but faction is for dark side/light side story or for class story (Jedi, hunter, etc.)

[unborn brook]

Faction meaning Pub/Imp...

[dry snow]

I still hope more story content is coming in the next fall or winter.

Also I wonder if Darth Jadus and Malgus team up who knows what else is gonna happen?

[west sequoia]

anyone that's read the datamined dialogue knows (at least as far as the general plan for 7.8)

[subtle salmon]

I wonder if Jadus and Malgus never met but heard of each other

[west sequoia]

given his prominence in the war + his position as a coordinator after the treaty of coruscant im pretty sure Malgus was one of those figures that everyone in the Empire knew of

meanwhile Intelligence is this mostly obscured place that's more of a boogeyman to the common Imperial, we only know the inner workings because Bioware decided it would be the focus of a playable class

[elfin anchor]

does anyone know if there ever was a rough date provided as to when Vodal Kressh rebelled?

The only thing i can somewhat think of to get a rough estimate is that one story from the tales of the jedi companion which shows a small sith cult (like barely with 3 members) trying to lure people to Athiss. This happened like 400 years before the great sith war

[elfin anchor]

You know the other day I was thinking about the star cabal and how much they knew of iokath and found these posts after some google searches
https://swtorpadawan.tumblr.com/post/620658124352815104/npc-spotlight-the-star-cabal-part-1
https://forums.swtor.com/topic/837509-star-cabal-and-iokath/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SWTORPC/posts/5826115354173500/

SWTORpadawan

NPC Spotlight : The Star Cabal - Part 1 - Unanswered Questions

I don’t know if many other people notice, but when you breach Mega Security Ward 23 on Belsavis and talk to the folks in the tanks, the conversation you have with them is.... well, interesting....

Tumblr · Jun 11, 2020, 8:01 PM

So

1. The Star Cabal somehow knew very early on about Vitiate and his remnant fucking off into uncharted space it seems, like it seems they were aware of them and had a role in keeping the sith empire's existance a secret? The guy that says that says he was born 8 centuries before the events of the game, so at least by then they must have been aware of the hidden sith empire (its also kind of funny how this guy thus happens to have been born approximately around the time of freedon nadd and potentially vodal kressh)
2. It also means that they somehow knew of Belsavis back then. How did they even find out about that world in the first place? And how did the republic find that world later
3. That same guy also says that he saw SCORPIO's creation. So the star cabal must have at the very least had SCORPIO in the 4400s bby. But then, how did they even get her? There is no way he actually saw her creation since the Iokath species made her in the manderon period nearly one thousand years before that guy was even born right? Ig one could retroactively say he saw her creation as in maybe he found a holo or something? lol

[unborn brook]

Either these things... Or the Star Cabal stuff with SCORPIO was retconned...

[west sequoia]

yeah i can only assume after kotfe what they mean is they found scorpio in a very damaged state after her expulsion from iokath and whoever that guy was thought they were creating something new instead of rebuilding

ARIES' dialogue implies that its been a very long time since anyone else was on Iokath

[subtle salmon]

And what ARIES said I imagined Scorpio was a defective model that came first or maybe way later and ARIES was the final

[west sequoia]

nah that part i think hes just throwing shade because he can

[subtle salmon]

Was confusing

Think one reason the Agent wasn’t my top favorite, the whole Star Cabal thing felt way out there. Since I thought a group like that couldn’t influence everything.

[west sequoia]

they seem to be completely ignorant of their pending annihilation that's only stopped because of Scourge and the Hero of Tython

"oh thats just some petty internicene squabble we can manipulate"

[subtle salmon]

Yea, doubt they could’ve manipulated Vitiate

Heck they were expecting to come out on top, not some immortal Sith Lord

[west sequoia]

cant remmeber if any of the star cabal infiltrators are directly shown to be Imperial so my take on that is that they largely have some external observation spots but not a great deal within the Empire

so the level that they can manipulate Imperial or even Sith forces is by intercepting and false flagging communications

but against any secure or direct orders, and Intelligence's efforts are primarily the former, they can't do shit

[subtle salmon]

Yea

Republic maybe they can manipulate, but the Empire, that might be harder

[west sequoia]

probably less so now that the empire has expanded far beyond the stygian caldera but certainly nowhere near the scale of centuries of infiltration capability that they've had in the republic

[jovial ether]

Question: How "reliable" are the SWTOR Codex entries? Are they in-universe datacrons or information being discovered? Or are they meta-out universe lore information to just the player? I have been debating this for a while.

[bright phoenix]

I think they're generally meant to be "reliable", they're just not obligated to tell you everything. Sometimes the codex entries are observations that could be made from just playing the game and following the story, while other times you can tell they're meant to act as in-universe pamphlets or books. I have never seen any forbidden meta knowledge in the codex entries, except that one time the writers accidentally used the "BBY" date format.

[elfin anchor]

No, I mean there obviously was a retcon but as far as we know there isnt anything that says what the star cabal says isnt canon anymore so now we've got two conflicting narratives. What Im trying to figure out is if its possible to still make them fit somehow

[elfin anchor]

I like em, and a group like that absolutely can influence evrything (or at least, i imagine, within the republic. I do struggle picturing how they would manage to infiltrate the sith) to a certain extent. Apparently the whole thing with corellia was engineered by them somehow.

[elfin anchor]

I do recall seeing the other day a wikipedia article about one of them being a red skinned sith officer, but thats so weird.

there is also a member of them thats a member of the mecrosa order which is bonkers

[jovial ether]

Hmmm....what about the offificial SWTOR Encyclopedia? Same here or is it more or less reliable?

[unborn brook]

I’m wondering if they wormed their way into the Empire the same way Tenebrae’s Empire wormed their way into the worlds that immediately went turncoat when the Sith Empire returned... As the Journal of Master Nose (Gnost Dural) mentioned...

[elfin anchor]

maybe

[bright phoenix]

there's not much difference there, it's just your typical star wars encyclopedia

what do you feel is unreliable?

[jovial ether]

Okay. Then let me ask in general: How reliable to the story and lore are most Star Wars: Encyclopedia's?

[jovial ether]

Oh, nothing. I am just doing research.

[bright phoenix]

generally speaking the info in the encyclopedias is the kind of info that the inhabitants of the universe could also get access

except stuff like

[bright phoenix]

well in the swtor encyclopedia, it has sections where it will mention, "here, [x] will have their final duel against [x]" and that kind of stuff is obviously a bit more meta because it's more about the story

it's kind of a bird's eye view

[jovial ether]

Alright then. Thanks. I am just doing research to see if Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's backstory and childhood as depicted in the Revan novel and thr SWTOR Encyclopedia are true, or if some parts of his rise to power are embellished and some parts of the story are myth/legend.

[bright phoenix]

all I can say is good luck 🤣

[jovial ether]

Yeah. I am not researching for answers, but researching for what we know so far and what that could mean. But yeah, it will be really hard, haha

[bright phoenix]

yeah, it can be fun trying to reverse engineer some of the writer intent, what certain info could mean and try to understand why certain info is revealed to us and why other stuff isn't

[elfin anchor]

i think he is asking if the codex entries should be considered oou sources or in universe

[jovial ether]

Helloe everyone. I have made and documented research and made them into a PDF. I would like to hear your thoughts.

For those of you familar with the lore already of what we know of Tenebrae, you can freely skip to the "inconsistecies" section.

[unborn brook]

Some things I’d like to question...

1. Tenebrae’s mother and Dramath’s affair. I’d like to think they briefly kept in contact after the... Deed... Allowing Dramath to order for infanticide briefly after the birth. Allowing him to forget about Tenebrae, assuming it was a done deal.

2. Tenebrae ending his mother’s suffering “long ago”. This one sounds self-explanatory to me. After torturing her, Tenebrae gave his mother the relief of death. A mercy compared to the vast amounts of time Dramath sat in solitude in between Tenebrae’s torture sessions.

Another thing

3. Dramath speaking about Tenebrae as if he raised him. Remember, Dramath briefly met Tenebrae as a pre-teen/teen before meeting his end. But despite dying, Dramath lived on as a spirit, one that Tenebrae could torture. And from then on, Dramath would no doubt learn more about Tenebrae from the source.

[vapid edge]

@celest sparrow ....because Enemies to Lovers bro 😄

And I actually been actively campaigning to romance Arcann since earlier part of KOTFE because my Sith Warrior want to dump Malavai for someone who was more equal to her

[celest sparrow]

Personally I love killing Arcann. I only saved him one time just cause I havent done it before. I even replay the chapter where we kill him just to do it again. My main issue is that for the DS option; it takes 3 swings of a lightsaber to kill him. This is suppose to be an execution, taking 3 attempts to kill someone with a laser sword is pathetic

[vapid edge]

That's fine too. It's an RPG after all.

But as you are wondering what's goes into the head of someone who romance Arcann... I play a Sith Warrior who was groomed by his father to be a vessel and those five years, he knows his father jumped into her body and tried to find a way to remove Valkorion.

And the entirety of KOTFE was him just wanting to stop his father from rising... and he failed gloriously.

[celest sparrow]

He invaded MY EMPIRE and trapped me in carbonite. I would've been the new Emperor by now

[west sequoia]

no you wouldnt have

[vapid edge]

I also like how Force Dyad works with this because my Wrath and Arcann were both groomed by the Sith Emperor to be his living vessels and just so happened Valkorion's children are too headstrong and powerful to control.

But my Wrath hated the Sith Emperor and wanted to destroy him so it aligned with Arcann's desire to take down his father. It's literally just against his father and nothing being about the Outlander.. who happened to be this sexy little thing making his blood boils.. hmm..

KOTET was shortened because people want MP and we get it. But I like that Senya joined the Outlander to learn about the kind of person you are and she choose to save Arcann and that enraged Vaylin.

[west sequoia]

she tried to save them both

vaylin's just too broken to be fixed

[vapid edge]

Vaylin choose her dad but still wanted her mom. Complicated that one

But Arcann was filled with guilt over Thexan and it shamed him to face his mom

[celest sparrow]

Kill the mother. Kill the son. Kill the daughter. Kill the father.

[vapid edge]

Anyway, my Wrath.. DS turned Neutral Sith Lord... she was complicated too and... she wanted Valkorion out of her and allying with Arcann made sense

and Arcann being cleansed of his hatred.... well there's this girl who needed him to destroy his dad once and for all.. and his mom approved of this so.. why not 😄

[celest sparrow]

Just wanted to say my thoughts. But like you said; this is a RPG and to each their own

[vapid edge]

My love... awww

also my Sith Warrior like her man on his knees... 😄

also they goes from this to this and to this..

actual lore-appropriate Star Wars "enemies to lovers" love story.. it's tradition

besides, fact they continued with Arcann content even if it took a decade to be here... and a happily ever after too.

no Rise of Skywalker here lol

[vapid edge]

also... got to appreciate the man who embrace his destiny as the one who would fall to the Outlander.

[stiff delta]

I like Arcann as a character but I really feel like saving him is p weird everyone should be demanding his public execution on the holonet

Taking him into the alliance sounds like political suicide

[subtle salmon]

Throwing him jail should’ve been a choice as well

[west sequoia]

swtor devs have always loved false dichotomies

[stiff delta]

ah yes, the great moral dilemma between not killing the widely despised foreign conqueror of the entire galaxy and killing the widely despised foreign conqueror of the entire galaxy(his mom will be very sad)

and if you don't kill him he apparently just joins you because everyone deserves a second chance

[vapid edge]

I don't really see him being saved by Outlander since that choice to heal him was Senya's doing. And he was already a deposed emperor and his sister took over and was even more brutal to their own people. So he became the.. better choice? Then again this is star wars and sith lords and jedi..

I usually viewed my Alliance as a place for second chances for all sides to come and I dont force them to obey or follow me blindly and offering Arcann that second chance to stand up and fight against Vaylin and Valkorion made sense to me.

I do like that Theron freaked out when Arcann joined up but he was also in the same boat with my Sith Lord. (And after Iokath stuff, theron have more groveling to do.. he got his dad killed... smh)

And even anyone with a lick of force sensitivity knows the whole was complicated. But the main storyline was about the Sith Emperor and throughout KOTFE, no one bat an eye to follow his chosen living vessel... and technically, as the only living child of Tenebrae, Arcann was the true heir to the Sith Empire.

But... my Wrath dont care and hooking up with the former emperor of Zakuul was a power move to pacify others. Arcann aren't interested at all to get his political power back but I think both him and Senya still have their loyal Zakuulan knights.

I haven't started with later storylines with Malgus and such so I dont know if they add more to Zakuulan stuff.

Then again. Right now I still play my Wrath as someone who still lean to the Sith Empire but protective of the independence and neutrality the Alliance become. (Which was funded by Arcann's gold reserve... lol)

He was written as a redeemed tyrant and laid out his guilt and such. But he does need to live to make amends for himself and his family especially the Sith Emperor. Even during five years of his tyranny, it kept the Imps and the Pubs from fighting each other... and then they're back at it now.

[celest sparrow]

As I reiterate: "Kill the mother. Kill the son. Kill the daughter. Kill the father."

Kill them ALL!!!

[void pelican]

lol i only did it for the achievement

usually i just marry lana

[vapid edge]

I actually dislike that Lana was plot armored.

[west sequoia]

plot armour is honestly the wrong word

its popularity armour

also the response to theron being killable essentially made them commit to keeping companions around once they're permanent
which is why a lot of the recent ones are classified as temporary, i have this sneaking suspicion that they'll kill one of them off for drama and it's probably going to be Rass

[vapid edge]

She became the placeholder as a loyal companion for the rest of DLCs but stop at letting her have her own ambitions beyond serving loyally... which stop her having her own storyline.

Koth and Theron are killable but at least they have their own story and motivation to do so.

that said I'm not averse to killing them all thing. Jaesa and Vette both dead in my SW story.

[stiff delta]

Wack how out of any of the characters that could turn on you and die as as result, the Sith Lord isn't one of them

I guess that's what happens when you become a popular character in this game you're suddenly not allowed to die or become an enemy or go against the player at all

[vapid edge]

Go against the player... execution!!

[stiff delta]

i wish lana would become an antagonist if you side with the republic

same with theron if you side with the empire

don't need them to die ever, they just show up fucking your shit up in between being imperial/republic bigshots

could have some crazy toxic romance dialogue

[stiff delta]

except when the companion is useful

which is why people are constantly calling for Quinn's death despite getting the option to execute him during the class story removed in the first place

[west sequoia]

and getting the option to kill him later added solely to pacify the people that had been whining about it

[vapid edge]

Malavai was the only healer companion so they dont want to mess with that

But of course waiting YEARS for Iokath kill option to pop up.. lol

[stiff delta]

its such a weird argument tbh "waaah i need a healer comp" then maybe don't kill him???

and the devs' fix is weird as hell too they just made it impossible to get rid of him instead of changing another comp to heal

[subtle salmon]

The ships droid: Am I a joke to you?
Swear people forgotten him

Think back then I used him a lot before gotten any other companions that healed

[stiff delta]

Those guys have zero dialogue and sometimes they don't even let you take them into cutscenes because they need a companion that actually says something

[west sequoia]

the ship droid was really underpowered in the early stages of the game

the really funny thing about the whole ordeal is that they actually tested role-select companions at some point in the alpha but decided against it

[celest sparrow]

Just a random thought: Do you think if we may have to kill Shae, our toon can become the new Mandalore? Had that thought when I remembered Maul killing Pre Vizla and thought "Imagine my Sith Inqu killing Shae like what Maul did"

[west sequoia]

nah if anyones gonna be the next mandalore its gonna be jekiah ordo

he's basically been given the job already

[unborn brook]

Doubt it, honestly... Otherwise we’d be removed from the Mandalore title pretty quickly...

[west sequoia]

and i'd say they've already learned that they're not actually that good at writing the player character in a position of authority except im pretty sure their current writing team is new since the 5.x era

[unborn brook]

It’ll be “Oh Mandalore, my kitten is stuck in a tree, could you possibly help it down?”

[west sequoia]

the other complicating factor is that theres only one out of 8 origins that actually has any association with the mandos

[lusty hill]

Do you think the Empire ever conquered Ghorman before the Treaty of Coruscant?

[clever ibex]

Kinda 2 if you romance akaavi

[stiff delta]

so what did Revan releasing the Emperor actually achieve? Did it make Valkorion stronger or something? What would've changed if the events of SoR and Ziost just didn't happen, wouldn't Arcann and Thexan still launch raids into the wider galaxy and provoke Marr's expedition?

[west sequoia]

Vitiate harvested enough lifeforce off the conflict on Yavin to become active again

[stiff delta]

and then what

how does that change anything in KOTFE/ET

[west sequoia]

my view is that Ziost didn't actually achieve what Vitiate wanted it to achieve, and that there's an inherent power ceiling in the ritual he uses to consume life, so he can only prolong himself rather than becoming fully immortal
I think to a degree he still wanted to go extragalactic and explore all of the possible lives he could live but he still had certain amounts of unfinished business in the GFFA

so now that he's back at full strength, he decides to fully commit to Zakuul and gives Arcann and Thexan a challenge to prove themselves

actually if i remember right it was supposed to just be Thexan and theres bits of dialogue that suggest he was the more popular of Valkorion's children among Zakuul's populace

and despite their lack of other linkages, KotFE/ET are a direct followup to the events of SoR, if SoR doesnt happen then neither do they

and SoR itself follows on from the base game content regarding Revan

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that due to the first overt movements of the Revanites plans, they were also waiting for the state of the galaxy to settle into something closer to a stalemate before acting, it wasnt just coincidental and linear real-world scheduling that meant their schemes were enacted after the fall of the rogue Dread Masters

they wanted the Republic and Empire fully focused on each other so that they could operate under the radar

not sure if I'd go so far as to say they decided to assist the Empire's retrieval of isotope-5 on makeb but it certainly helped with their broad plans because if the Empire was defeated, the Republic wouldn't have any major occupying obstacles and probably would have intervened in the very early stages of the Revanite plot

[vapid edge]

oh... I choose to not kill off the undetectable "cyborgs" and turns out it's not successful....

Garza really want me to blindly obey to her war crimes is it

I think I remember Senya saying that Valkorion turned cold on her and then what happened to Vaylin, she left him and the twins behind. I think during this period was within the whole situation with Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight storyline.

[west sequoia]

nah, too late for that

his main abandonment was when they were children

[vapid edge]

Tenebrae's lore was weird and I'm doing the class story again. Voss thing, then Jedi Knight's kidnapping thing.

but the idea was his spirit was like... this omniscient multiple brain parasite thingy

Valkorion's children was more like an experiment of creating vessels by blood. He did complain a lot about Arcann and Vaylin being too powerful and headstrong for it though.

[elfin anchor]

i may be misremembering but

1. It helped Vitiate speed up his come back
2. I think the events of SoR basically made Vitiate realize that most of the Sith Empire would no longer follow him (after all, doesnt he call the sith empire a failed experiment or something? If so, thats an insane thing to say but whatever)
3. If the events of SoR and Ziost didnt happen, i guess it would have taken some years for Vitiate to be back (think of Palpatine and how it took him like what? 5 or 6 years in legends to fully recuperate from Endor). I also assume that when he does eventually come back, there is a possibility that he'd just take back the Sith Empire again, no need to unleash the Eternal Empire

[elfin anchor]

didnt he tell marr that all this time he has been inactive in the affairs of the sith empire was because he was busy with his secret eternal empire cause it was actually his 'main' empire and the sith empire just a sort of tool?

if so, and if im not misremembering, I guess that his plan was just to become everything and everyone within the 'perfect' society of his eternal empire?

[west sequoia]

honestly i think a lot of the counter-reaction to 4.0 was just that Zakuul was too big of a retcon for a lot of the playerbase to swallow

there was a forum post of boyd throwing out a lot of maybes to people raising some of the plot holes in kotfe but like a lot of their decisions it was very noncommittal

[west sequoia]

before 4.0 the impression was very much that he delegated a lot of the business of running the Sith Empire to others so that he could more fully commit to his pursuit for immortality

this'll probably never get confirmed but one of my personal theories is that something he briefly talks about in the Warrior story on Voss was some critical piece of information in extending the planet-consuming ritual to a galactic scale

imo it fixes the whole weirdness of "okay why didnt he just use the deaths throughout the first great galactic war as fuel"

[lusty hill]

I sorta agree with this. I look at it as he didn't know what he needed during the first, and then when he did need it started the war again.

[west sequoia]

the second (and third war too, really) goes back to him devolving so much of the ordinary empire stuff away from his own purview

probably not so much Marr in Defense of the Empire but definitely Strategy and Offense probably ended up as figures who wanted revenge on the Republic for their decimation of Korriban so long ago, and you've got certain other figures pressing the boundaries of the Treaty of Coruscant until it finally collapses

meanhwile Vitiate finds hints to something on Voss, gets a mystic abducted and converts it to a Voice

but that all happens largely unrelated to the war, could be argued that the war is more of an obstacle than a boon to Vitiate's plan of a galaxy-wide ritual because as the Knight story presents it, there's only one part that actually intersects with the 2GGW

and given the ordering I'm pretty sure Belsavis was the primary plan, then Voss was the first contingency, then Corellia was the second contingency, and that's the extent of what Scourge knew, there might have been a third contingency devised after he fully left the position of Emperor's Wrath but thats probably something we'll never know

[elfin anchor]

you know its kind of funny to think that while the sith empire set up the training complex for their guards in yavin 4

there was, deep underground, a hidden jedi city lol

[stiff delta]

its also full of ancient sith temples

[elfin anchor]

yeah, and in one of those you got exar kun's spirit taking a nap

i think in star wars galaxies his own temple is part of a raid or smth?

[celest sparrow]

Playing through SI story, whenever I kill Skotia, I never used the droid device. Which means my mere Sith Apprentice killed a Darth while he was a full power lorewise

[unborn brook]

My first time, I only used it at the end... Lol (Unintentionally rubbing salt in the already mechanical wounds)

[elfin anchor]

do you guys thinking the Intergalactic Banking Clan, which apparently had been active super early on in the timeline, was involved with the Star Cabal?

[unborn brook]

They either did or members of the IBC did...

It’s a conspiracy of powerful people, right? So why wouldn’t the banks get in on the action?

[jovial ether]

Decided to reply to this message I have sent a while ago with a new PDF document. This PDF document is another debate and inconsistency post that talks about something else condradicting about Tenebrae/Vitiate. Any comments or feedback and new ideas would be greatly appreciated, as this new topic of this new PDF has been an even more puzzling this time than the topic of the previous one.

[elfin anchor]

My thoughts exactly, was just asking cause im trying to write some backstory for an rp game and the Muuns just seem like very powerful people who never really did anything that cool in this period

yet a lot of important events happened like right next to their territory. In the official maps they are like right next to Dantooine

[unborn brook]

The Sith Empire chose to let pirates attack an agricultural world over the world that controls the Repubic Credit?!!! (I doubt the Sith had major dealings with the IBC, they likely had state-owned banks)

[elfin anchor]

im more so wondering if, at least, the kotor 2 mercs were essentially backed by the muuns (since im starting to think it'd be cool to say that czerka's primary stakeholders were them). Dantooine would have been turned into a base for the exchange, aka people who can easily be swayed by money, unlike the Jedi

no idea about the swtor pirates tbh, maybe same logic.

and yeah i agree that Vitiate's sith probably had state owned banks

[west sequoia]

(because food is more important than money)

[unborn brook]

There’s two times (I know of) Tenebrae’s Empire could have chosen Muun worlds over some old Jedi Enclave world... When Baras tried to lure Satele, then the Onslaught Pirate event...

[elfin anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/salesman-squid-game-salesman-squid-game-salesman-salesman-card-salesman-games-gif-15853856798044452427

[unborn brook]

Sure, but without money ships can’t be built, militaries can’t be paid... The Republic senators will find ways to find/stretch food (probably contract with Czerka if desperate), they need their big guns to fight the Sith...

[west sequoia]

and without food people die

[unborn brook]

Without ships, Sith can enslave/orbitally bombard... People also die...

[west sequoia]

not being able to make new ships doesnt mean the current ones stop functioning

[unborn brook]

Plus, Dantooine likely isn’t the only agricultural world the Republic had... Whereas take out the Muun’s main offices... The Republic goes into a great pain...

[unborn brook]

Can’t restore ships when damagedand can’t pay soldiers causing desertion/treason... Both options, banks and agricultural worlds, would be quite crippling...

You’d have to rebuild or create new infrastructure regardless of which is attacked...

[west sequoia]

the writers probably decided a farm is a farm and cant be some distributed process whereas banking processes can

the wook's only swtor reference for the banking clan is a single crew skills mission

and im pretty sure that whole pirate event was just something to coat over finally adding dantooine to the game

[unborn brook]

Also Andronikos makes mention of the banks in his “backstory”... (Definitely jokingly, but it’s a mention)

[elfin anchor]

supposedly, despite not being mentioned much, the muuns were a big deal even when the republic was formed

yeah i dont think there was much thought put into the pirate event

seems more like a lil nod to the mercs from KotoR 2 imo

i mean it'd be cool if it were a bit deeper but idk

banking clan is just super underused

[unborn brook]

But there ain’t even a side adventure of Jedi Enclave looting... Lol

[west sequoia]

yeah you dont really loot anything out of the enclave fp even as an imp

or at least storywise. there's all the deco drops

[unborn brook]

A waste of a field trip, I tell you... Lol

[unborn brook]

On the differences between Tenebrae and his plague imprint (floppy disk save), perhaps the reverberating voice and the emotionless state was undone when his body died? Scourge’s emotions returned after Tenebrae’s bodily death, who’s to say the imprint’s (the floppy disk save file’s) emotion didn’t too?

Hell, the Wrath and (maybe the Knight) had conversations with Servant One... For the Wrath (Class Story), Servant One was controlled. Tenebrae’s bodily death did not happen yet, the Knight may have killed a Voice, but Voices can be replaced.

For the Knight (Nathema Conspiracy FP), Servant One was emotional. We later learn in Onslaught that, Tenebrae’s bodily death happenes as the Outlander excised Tenebrae from their mind.

[jovial ether]

Maybe.

[jovial ether]

That is a good point there

[jovial ether]

Hmmmmm.....what about the tale of Tenebrae/Vitiate not crying since birth, and him being described as "emotionless" during his reign as Lord Vitiate?

Just a thought

[unborn brook]

It could be a story, after all Darth Nyriss said she can not verify the story...

[unborn brook]

Watching the Echoes of Oblivion ship cutscenes, all of the servants seemed expressive...

[jovial ether]

Makes sense. Should we consider the same for the SWTOR Encyclopedia?

[unborn brook]

Depends on what it says, does it mention how Tenebrae was as a child? And what about other topics that have since been thrown into question?

[jovial ether]

Not much. Just says he "entered the galaxy without shedding a tear"

And also says he "regarded his parents with cold, pitiless eyes".

In the Sith Emperor section on the Encyclopedia, it says early in hie reign many younh sith flocked to the "emotionless and enigmatic Lord Vitiate".

[celest sparrow]

Bounty Hunter Act 1 final hunt. I just killed a bunch of Republic soldiers, Tarro Blood, and Kellian Jarro. Mako is upset I killed his Padawan. What about all those lives I just listed? What's with the outrage over a single Padawan?

[elfin anchor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgnxKu4YjCU&

do we know if this was genuinely Sadow's spirit?

Cause this was made in universe and Gnost made some mistakes in his journal (which these videos seem more or less an adaptation of)

I am finding it more likely that this was Exar's spirit

and also, what even is the timneline for vitiate's sith involvement in Yavin 4

like, this video talks about an event which occured centuries after kotor, yet in swtor we later find this guy

https://youtu.be/cd53il50qmE

[celest sparrow]

Sadow fled to exile and eventually died on Yavin 4

[elfin anchor]

who lived in Kun's time, decades before kotor. And he mentions that he met Vitiate himself.

So basically Vitiate, at some point after the end of the great sith war, goes to Yavin 4 to do something in the temple of sacrifice (was it already there or did he make it?), meets this guy, imprisons him instead of killing him because reasons then fucks off.

then centuries later he sends one of his spies there back to yavin to investigate sadow's tomb?

[elfin anchor]

I know

freedon nadd killed him

originally, before swtor retconned this with that video, he destroyed sadow's spirit much like how exar would destroy nadd years later

[elfin anchor]

i guess it sounds like vitiate was driven out of yavin by a spirit

[unborn brook]

Tenebrae had to eventually set up a guardsman training facility on Yavin IV...

Tenebrae likely imprisoned the Dashade around the same time he set up the Guardsmen’s training summer camp....

That likely happened when the Jedi lineage spies either stopped or started scouting Yavin IV...

[west sequoia]

SoR's Temple of Sacrifice is so close to the description of something Exar Kun designed and built that I personally consider them the same complex

[subtle salmon]

Was t it him that built the temples there?

[west sequoia]

There's some that are attributed to Exar Kun and some attributed to Sadow

potentially even Freedon Nadd could have built some

also Sadow and Tenebrae were contemporaries, I think it's far easier to believe Sadow had some residual grudge against him than Exar Kun

[subtle salmon]

Sith hating each other seems normal doubt any we’re friends with each other

[west sequoia]

you get a strong enough and actively involved central leader and everyone else plays nice

[unborn brook]

Not really because Sadow was active in politics while Tenebrae was a mere academic... (As Nyriss called him)

[west sequoia]

in the broad strokes at least, Marka Ragnos had challengers but was also considered to have presided over a golden age of the Sith

[west sequoia]

they were still active at the same point during the Old Sith Empire

[subtle salmon]

One Sith died of old age even

[west sequoia]

yes, Ragnos was that powerful

none of his numerous challengers got anywhere close to beating him, and even as a spirit he stopped the fight between Sadow and Ludo Kressh that broke out at his funeral

[unborn brook]

Yeah, but Tenebrae would likely be barely on Sadow’s radar...

“Oh, that kid who got Lorded by Ragnos, gonna keep an eye on him”

“Wait, he’s just an academic?!!! No grand conquest beyond his world?!!!”

[subtle salmon]

Ragnos stopping a fight at his funeral sounds funny

Ragnos: Guys stop this fighting at my funeral. You can try to kill each other afterwards.

[stiff delta]

actually he told them to keep fighting lol

[subtle salmon]

lol okay that’s even funnier

[elfin anchor]

But the timeline for that is too early for that I think. This should have happened like shortly after the end of the Great Sith War, and this is also in space known to the jedi order. I really dont think it would have taken that long for the dashade to have found yavin considering just how big of a deal yavin was in this period thats where a huge jedi fleet fought and defeated Exar Kun, scorching the world in the process, ending the war. No way it would have taken that guy so much time to find that world.

[elfin anchor]

part of me likes to headcanon it and say that it was Sadow who made it ngl, explains why nadd was obsessed with using sadow's stuff on yavin to get a new body

[elfin anchor]

honestly, they could have interacted tbh

sadow was actually super into weird forbidden sith knowledge

according to ludo

[vapid edge]

Decided to let Watcher X go since I killed him in my first Agent playthrough. Kaliyo does GREATLY disapprove lol

[subtle salmon]

She really gets mad over that while doing the same backstabbing to others

One reason I dislike her

[elfin anchor]

you know so there is something i was wondering, you see back when dark empire was released there was barely any lore to go by so most of whats said there was not really meant to be a reference to any material that came prior.

In dark empire there is this holocron, briefly featured in tales of the jedi later, called the Tedryn holocron. In it, one of the gatekeepers, Bodo Baas, the descendant of Vodo Siosk Baas (exar kun's master), says that only 3 jedi knights tried to conquer the dark side from within, as if willingly trying to master the dark side to know how to destroy it basically (much like Luke tries to do in dark empire when he kneels before a reborn Sidious). Bodo later goes on to describe Ulic's story, so Ulic is one of these three Jedi Knights.

And while I know that motivation may be a bit too normal for most stories nowdays I guess, I wonder, which 'big name' Jedi Knights can you guys think of could be the other 2 unknown Jedi Bodo mentions?

According to the words of Bodo Baas, as revealed in the Jedi Holocron, there have been only a few who have left the company of the Light to learn the Dark Side’s power firsthand and find its weaknesses. There have only been three cases of those who, as fully trained Jedi, have embraced the Dark Side to learn its secrets and intended to use the Darkness upon itself.
Dark Empire Sourcebook

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/lhTz-RYjQnnHWlvGl1PsqDxF3rQgHKTXecB9AQvANb_2ItVj1drFdgteDWUwmZZpbWGJGCoTf6_h=s1600?rhlupa=MjgwMDoyMjYxOjQwNDA6NzBkMzpmYzI4OjU1NzM6NGNlZjpiZDdiLjkvMi8yMDI1IDg6NDM6NTMgQU0tMC1yMS1z&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEzOS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2

So I am thinking that the only other important Jedi that could fit that description would be Revan (especially before the retcon made by the novel. After the novel, im really not so sure when revan fell but there seems to be some sources which claim that even before venturing into uncharted space he was already secretly studying sith lore from stuff he found on Malachor and Korriban so there is that. Should be mentioned, Revan originally seemed to have been learning sith lore by himself in secret, so not even Malak knew. But, nevertheless, Im still not sure if Malak would count too).

Perhaps Skere Kaan could also fit that description.

[midnight dune]

Why is a good sith more interesting than an evil jedi?

[unborn brook]

Because evil Jedi are more common, especially when they turn Sith after a period... Exar Kun (look at what he did to get to the tomb of Nadd, pre-Sith) and Revan (look at the end of the Mando War, he turned before Tenebrae dominated his mind).

[stiff delta]

It's generally harder to stop being an evil psycho asshole than to start becoming one

[void pelican]

evil jedi are kinda boring

The worst kind of sith

Full on madness and torture and mayhem and death

because they’ve thrown inhibition to the wind

passion, yes, but control is what makes the greatest sith

make your passions serve you, there is the strength the sith code discusses

a fallen jedi is little more than a rabid dog

[stiff delta]

so real

going full madness is straight up just letting yourself be a slave to emotions and instinct if you do that shit you're misunderstanding the point of the sith code

[elfin anchor]

i like the ulic/revan archetype of fallen jedi the most

sith code which was made by evil jedi

lmfao

[vapid edge]

lol, DS for being loyal to Kira

I forgot that these things are inconsistent sometimes

[vapid edge]

lol... the jedi master sensed Quinn have feelings and he said it's from self-loathing. Oh this is juicy

not fully DS SW in early story is far more entertaining

oh this is nice

[vapid edge]

lol what was the gen chat discussion earlier? pureblood sith can't be jedi?

[vapid edge]

oh this is why we do smuggler first lol

[vapid edge]

actually glad to have imperial spec force unlocked

[midnight dune]

Wait, how is the Dark Council functioning with traitors and cowards in it?

[void pelican]

That’s the thing, it’s not

To the extent the council works, it’s because the first-among-equals members can keep the others from being too self-destructive

e.g. marr in the 2.x and 3.x eras

[midnight dune]

so social restraint is only thing keeping them from just going balistic?

[void pelican]

another part of the problem is that every sith is encouraged to effectively have a personal army

[void pelican]

social restraint, belief in the empire, and/or threat of greater retribution

[midnight dune]

but dont they shut down any sith that tries to make a power base?

or are only dark council members allowed?

[void pelican]

to an extent; everyone still ends up with one

if you’re thinking of inquisitor, thanaton probably thought zash made the swap and was treating us as her

[subtle salmon]

Think long as don’t pull a Grathan think you are fine

And there was one Sith that was exiled in a heroic on DK

[void pelican]

Right. Don’t do an open rebellion (or if you do, win)

rivalries are normal and expected

[subtle salmon]

Think blatant murder is frowned upon as well

[void pelican]

exaxtly

Don’t get caught

[subtle salmon]

Is funny how she gotten away with it, like she gambled on the SI

[void pelican]

she just didn’t expect khem to eat her at the exact moment she was in between

[subtle salmon]

Yea

[void pelican]

But the Empire’s real problem is they’re having attrition twice over

besides the fact that the two military seats other than Marr’s have been unstable, you can’t lose Sith to both the Republic and each other and still do fine

[midnight dune]

How did the Jedi solve the infighting issue?

Beat ambition out of the padawans?

[subtle salmon]

Think Jedi didn’t have that problem

[void pelican]

The Jedi philosophy selects against that kind of naked infighting ambition

[midnight dune]

Then what's their issue?

[midnight dune]

Was Scourge Emperor's Wrath before the PC? And can there be 2 at same time?

[unborn brook]

Yes, Scourge was the Wrath before the Warrior. Probably not, since Scourge was the only known Wrath, working in the position for 300 years...

[elfin anchor]

Scourge was the first Wrath ever i think

[elfin anchor]

i always wonder just what if the player characters never messed with Grathan in any way ngl

Cause part of me feels like he could have pulled it off

[void pelican]

We all went in there because it was open season on him and his

[elfin anchor]

and gotten a seat on the council

easily one of my favorite sith in this game not even kidding

[elfin anchor]

Thats one way to view it, but at the same time I cant help but notice how Thanaton's backstory is quite similar to that of the inquisitor's. Makes me think he could have just been jealous

[elfin anchor]

The Jedi no longer have that problem, but in the lead up to KotoR (and to a certain extent during this time period too i imagine, but the game doesnt seem to acknowledge much) they do have some infighting

give me a sec

The following screenshots are taken from the KotoR campaign guide by wizard's of the coast, and they describe the situation of the jedi order roughly around the time of the KotoR games but I imagine some issues here still persist in the SWTOR period.

also i always just imagined Sith Lord as being essentially space feudal lords

Feudal Magocracy in this case i guess

Also, interestingly enough, in the original Sith Empire, Naga Sadow was called a Viceroy and there was a mention of there being Barons with their own armies

I thus always imagined that calling someone a 'Sith Lord' during the times where there was an actual Sith Empire, was more so a generic term but in reality most sith would be having actual titles

[vapid edge]

Oh Trooper reference in JK quest

ah finally.. lightsaber appeared 😄

glad that at least keep my SW as Mara. Would've been so annoying to see disappearing saber

[midnight dune]

If I were to make a pure LS Jedi Knight, are there dark side options that make sense like in SW story?

[vapid edge]

Usually I pick middle line and most of Jedi's are LS. Being loyal to Kira is surprising a DS choice, lol.

but if want to be ruthless warhawk jedi... totally can be that for both Knight and Consular

I think a lot of middle JK choices boosted Republic's military strength

anyway, the alignment don't really matter, what's matter was the story choices that you make that lead up to more consequences and routes

[midnight dune]

How is loyalty to Kira darkside?

[vapid edge]

hmm.. I guess it's un-Jedi-like to get attached to your Padawan

[elfin anchor]

yes, I for one really dont understand why any jedi would hesitate to kill Vitiate. He literally cant be redeemed

Tol Braga's plan was so dumb

[midnight dune]

So try to kill Vitiate and maybe defending Kira?

I heard defending Kira is dark side

She was forced to train as a Sith and ran away. Not her fault

[elfin anchor]

yes, i always romance Kira. I personally dont think attachments are bad for jedi, and there are cases of great jedi, both from the past and from way after the game takes place, who got into relationships and things went alright

[midnight dune]

So if I play anything but LS SW Jaessa goes mad in the dlc?

Even as a JK player?

[elfin anchor]

i dont think you can get Jaesa if you play the JK class

[midnight dune]

Oh ok

I think JK got short end of the stick

2 of his companions go missing until end of Onslaught

T7 comes back first

Does JK comment on T7 being with Lana to save him?

[stiff delta]

I still don't understand how it never came to him or anyone at all that if he could have beat the Emperor with a team of skilled Jedi the Sith would've done it themselves centuries ago

[elfin anchor]

hell, you'd think Revan himself would have warned him after being rescued as he did say he was going to have a talk with the Council

[stiff delta]

truly an exemplar of jedi courage

[elfin anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/transformers-heroic-nonsense-g1-megatron-ironhide-gif-20960296

[stiff delta]

i'm still only halfway through jedi knight act 2 but already spoiled anything do you at least get to call out anyone on how fucking stupid the plan is

[elfin anchor]

yep

but tol braga is just like

"dont worry brother, trust the plan trust"

[subtle salmon]

At the end of the chapter or near it

[stiff delta]

during the scene on tython at the start of act 2 your character isn't even like, asked whether they want to come along or not it is simply assumed by default that you are and neither you nor kira can complain

why doesn't kira point out how insane this is?

[subtle salmon]

Braga really thought that he turned one dark council member and he’s unstoppable

[stiff delta]

speaking of surely that dark council member advised him against this

[subtle salmon]

Don’t think so, I imagine was a top secret plan made up by him

[stiff delta]

lol that implies that he's cooking up a plan to infiltrate dromund kaas and decided to never ask for advice from a dark council defector

[subtle salmon]

Yea

I would also think the Emperors station isn’t even known to the dark council

[stiff delta]

yeah but you'd think he'd at least ask about getting into dromund kaas

[subtle salmon]

Shows Braga is crazy optimistic and overconfident

[stiff delta]

bro is jedi arrogance made manifest

the strawman the sith made up to bash on jedi but actually real

[subtle salmon]

Yep

Crazy thing, whatever the Sith said to describe the Jedi, there’s always a small bit of truth in it I bet

[elfin anchor]

you stand there because i allow it

because I do not fear

🗣️

[midnight dune]

Wait, Zakuul didnt have saber enemies normally. So when did they get the idea to get saber proof shields?

At least before the invasion

But in the trailer they are shown sacking Korriban with shields

[unborn brook]

They could just retain shields from their primitive ages... Shields are great for blasters and what’s better than lightsaber-resistant shields?

[prisma portal]

because || their leader /emperor literally is the Sith Emperor and therefore knows very well what lightsabers can do ||

also.... laser bolt or laser blade..... roughly same technology for deflecting, no? :p

[midnight dune]

Shame we cant get the brain tickler in saber form

The brain tickler is a modern name for an ancient sword that defeated Roman Shields

[unborn brook]

A curved blade that can go over a shield, right?

[midnight dune]

Falx

[unborn brook]

Ah

[midnight dune]

An overhead strike would fuck up the helmet

[unborn brook]

Meh... Just use a (historical) warhammer with a spike... That always works against plate...

[midnight dune]

So realistically a force user could kill a Knight of Zakuul by aiming for either fingers to disarm or for the head

I don't think the armor itself was saber rated

Maybe just the shield

[bitter cedar]

The glowing blue bits of the shield always made me wonder, based off some footage from like 2 seconds of the sacrifice cinematic, were those shields meant to also be blasting lasers? Or is there just a weird effect in the trailer of them absorbing shots with the shield

[vapid edge]

hehe this is so nostalgic

buruburuburu

[vapid edge]

finally

oh forgot this is spoiler chat but eh... holocron spoilers I guess

[midnight dune]

3626 bby is furthest year we got in mmo lore?

But Jedi Knight Chapter one takes place in 3641

Minus the 5 years that they get frozen, Jedi Knight is active at least 10 years

[west sequoia]

game starts in 3643BBY / 10ATC, class story progresses 1 year per chapter, then from ilum to the start of KotFE it matches the real-world release timeframe, add the 5 year timeskip then more real-world release matching until onslaught which i think is when the most recent dev statement about the games timeline was made

honestly idk why they havent been using the cutscene text popups that kotfe started using to also include the internal timeframe

[stiff delta]

so how many years has it been since the beginning of the class story

[subtle salmon]

I assuming about 3-5 years

[stiff delta]

nah can't be, there's a 5 year timeskip between ziost and kotfe

[prisma portal]

KotFE starts 7 years after the clas stories

and the timeskips takes us top 12 years after

there is another 4 years until Onslaught

not sure about the date for Legacy of the Sith / the most current content

but as of Onslaught we were 16 yeas after the beginning of class stories

so it's probably 17 or 18 now

[stiff delta]

damn the jedi/sith characters would be at earliest 17 or so at the start of the game and they're gonna have one hell of a mid-life crisis soon

[elfin anchor]

guys did Kallig face Hord in a kaggath? One of my friends is telling me that is the case but i cant recall a line in the game ever stating that, in fact i can only think of lines from kallig himself stated he was assassinated NOT that he was Hord's kaggath opponent

[west sequoia]

I think Khem at some point says Hord was victorious in many Kaggath but I don't recall anything about one between Kallig and Hord

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/the-kaggath-inquisitor ok nvm just the one

Kallig's death was a responsive assassination to his growing power as one of Hord's underlings, not as a rival

[elfin anchor]

perfect

thank you

also that kaggath hord had must have been wild, i think Khem says that Thanaton was dumb for choosing only one system implying hord's kaggath involved a vast area of space

fought beyond the furthest edge of the galaxy, where there are no stars or light

sounds like he fought in the Intergalactic void

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Intergalactic_Void

also, another question regarding Hord.

Is there anything in the game which states Tulak found Dromund Kaas first?

Cause i can only recall Khem saying Tulak just conquered the Dromund system.

The first colonizers would have been Pharshol and that other guy he had a rivalry with (i cant remember his name). And judging by the fact that Dromund Kaas doesnt have any ancient civilization that inhabited it (in fact that world is almost purely an untamed jungle with the only ruins there being sith ruins) it makes me think that when Khem says Tulak Hord conquered Dromund Kaas he means that Tulak fought the sith colony who, i assume, rebelled or something.

[west sequoia]

some of that ancient sith history stuff is really wishy washy on dates