Weapon spitballing thread

[lofty temple]

but you can only spawn one and it'll have a cooldown upon using it

[formal valley]

one more message for 1000 messages here 😭

[hollow tiger]

💯

[kind turtle]

Hi chat

[hybrid dagger]

hi

[kind turtle]

I've been working on a design document for Jtweaks which is like a dark woke balancelord vanilla++ partial conversion proposal* (I don't have that kind of free time)

[weary hazel]

guess il repost mine

[kind turtle]

Devs have been talking about reworking the mine layer to be more like the Scottish resistance, I have two proposals for that

[hybrid dagger]

have they?

[kind turtle]

proposal 1: (worse idea, more complicated)
`Core changes:

1. One mine being triggered detonates all mines out.
2. Mines have a detonation timer.

A. Right clicking a specific mine will harmlessly fizzle that mine in particular. (Similar to scottish resistance)
i. Mines are visible through walls and have outlines.
B. Charging a mine will increase its lifetime (i.e. from 10, up to 20 seconds)

Advantages:
Overall: Maintains the passive detonation of the weapon that is interesting mechanically, without making it fire-and-forget.

Mines have counterplay- baiting one wastes demoman's APM and may create a situation that is bad for him.

Demoman is encouraged to actively tend to his minefield, and pay closer attention.
(Single fizzle has the advantage of making blundering by mindlessly walking into one's own mines more likely.)
(Expiring mines need to be replaced.)

Cyclops has greater utility to a ML demo, expanding range of gameplay potential.`

[kind turtle]

yeah eninoma seems pretty doomered out about it

[hybrid dagger]

i don't remember anything about the scottish resistance part

[kind turtle]

i personally think a lot of the community is just a little too dumb to appreciate a decade of refinement and wont appreciate anything with a different balancing philosophy to live (sorry, I think the weapon is far more appreciable than it gets credit for)

[kind turtle]

um perhaps i'm misremembering

[hybrid dagger]

tbh i just want mines sticking to walls again i do feel like currently they're not nearly as flexible for actual trapping

[kind turtle]

Rework proposal:

Broadly, we will map the function of the scottish resistance onto the specific look and mechanics of the minelayer. That the minelayer lays mines (cannot fix to walls), retains its unique tech (mine jumping) and function (ammo count ought to remain the same) is taken to be the working model.

The scottish resistance is not a particularly popular variant of the stickybomb launcher for demoman boils down to that it skews the stickybomb launcher to a particular pole of its gameplay (trapping, detonation). The quickiebomb launcher, which is another weapon that emphasizes a specific aspect of the original launcher (charge, 'stickyspam') is also unpopular is unsurprising. Rather, the specific mode of the new weapon in comparison to the stickybomb launcher is unchanged- it should maintain a similar pace of play, and shouldn't function for instance as a more specialized version of the original weapon, nor does it occupy a different mode but rather a mechanical inversion with new functions, disadvantages and advantages. This inversion will be along the axis of player control.

*The SBL detonates all bombs at once, actively. Likewise, the ML (old) detonates one at a time, passively.

The new behavior would entail active, single detonations with vestigial passive detonation mechanics. For instance, the behavior of the scottish resistance in regards to detonating stickies directly under oneself appears to be much less interesting than the behavior of the minelayer wherin proximity of the wielder to the mines will detonate them. This is the main proximity mine behavior that should be kept, because the mine jumping tech is 'peak,' 'skillful' and 'sapphic.'

I also suggest a smaller highlighting/detonating cone, to make aiming at each specific mine a really high focus, high aim activity.

[not finished]

[kind turtle]

I don't think the weapon is good for like, making traps. I think it's good for shooting behind an overextending player so they have to fight with a river to their back and can't escape, or using them to make someone's positioning more predictable to hit them. I've found the most fun playstyle with the weapon to be with the gunboats

[kind turtle]

Let me know if what I'm saying here is clear, I'm basically interested in the idea that the scottish resistance's detonation mechanics are mapped onto the minelayer, but it will still automatically detonate on the demoman the way it does now

I think the magazine of 4 and the faster fire rate combined with being able to see mines through walls would make for a really compelling and fun change

[hybrid dagger]

that upsets me because i feel like i've watched the mine layer get beaten to a pulp over the span of two years

[kind turtle]

This idea is just overly complex even though kind of interesting idk

Yeah its a bad circlejerk. Just like as an artist myself its gotta be a fucking tricky situation

[kind turtle]

Oh, the obvious thing here is that the proximity mines should just *chirp* when there are players around. That way, you get the *really cool* alarm system element without the frustrating passive detonation everyone has a distaste for, although i personally don't.

I guess I didn't realize this while writing this but I guess my proposal is to leave it essentially unchanged- except for that instead of automatically detonating on enemies, it just alarms you, and you have to pull the trigger

I guess and you can see through walls

My hottest balance take

The cyclops is by far the most unbalanced and overpowered weapon in the mod. Being certain you can land 70 DMG on someone is just so OP

My Jtweaks proposal for that is to copy the loose cannon mechanics wholesale but without the exaggerated knockback or double donk minicrits. I actually think it's completely fair to be able to Zap a scout with one shot if it's completely perfect. This would slow down the fire rate and make hitting airbursts a lot more difficult, overall making the weapon a lot less spammy

I also think the dynamite pack should have a mechanic where you can plant it on the ground so that it doesn't roll around at all.

My last proposal I think is a demo melee w/ the following stats

• Extended range
• Damage scales with movement speed (highest value from the last second)

• -70% primary ammo
• -70% secondary ammo

A lot of players dismiss the anchor as merely a worse version of the market gardener, which is unfair because it actually has a much different gameplay focus that has cool tech with the RPG and gunboats, but nobody really knows about this. I think syncing together demoknight and trolldier playstyles into a single weapon makes a ton of sense!

[kind turtle]

I guess this is pretty explicitly centered around the idea of using it with the gunboats and new melee to use its absurd upfront damage to launch yourself at crazy speeds, I think this might be clipfarming crack

It's also a mechanic in classic.

I think originally I was thinking of a variation of the ullapool caber, but that's a part of my pyro rework which might be really hateable (it removes the flaregun and shotgun)

[kind turtle]

I replace them with the coil gun and the twin barrel, the coilgun being changed to have 1. damage falloff 2. mini-crits on burning players

[kind turtle]

I can defend this along 2 lines: 1. Spam mitigation 2. Ricoshot puff and sting is literally the coolest fucking thing ever

I guess while I'm on this train I'll add that my idea for the pyro is that the fireaxe deals bonus damage to buildings (3x) and can defuse sappers in 3 hits

[fallen wasp]

I had an idea for a revolver which fires similar to how the original panic attack did, with a faster fire rate and a smaller max clip (and maybe silent kills)

[hybrid dagger]

pyro should have to Reap what he Sows with the harvester by hitting ignited enemies instead of afterburn doing its thing

[knotty arch]

elaborate

[hybrid dagger]

charge the thing by hitting enemies not waiting on afterburn

[orchid wraith]

so a shitter axetinguisher?

ok not shitter. I agree that the afterburn healing and meter build can be kinda pussy shit, but having to hold the weapon out kinda forces you to not do anything while it charges.

[fossil roost]

At that point why use it

[orchid wraith]

so... maybe just dealing fire damage builds the meter rapidly, and it gradually deteriorates, but hitting someone locks the meter in place... thats so fucking overcomplicated tho.

I think the fact that you have limited afterburn healing before the meter is full, forcing you to actually go for a melee swing is underrated design.

harvester fine as is pls dont change

genuinely my fav weapon in the game

[fossil roost]

Yea it's solid design, weapon felt a lot worse without the cap and heal on crit

[orchid wraith]

fuck the fire axe least fav weapon in the game, even more than the mine layer or hunting revolver

[fossil roost]

The gameplay loop is also really oslid and fun

[orchid wraith]

you CAN be a pussy, but you cant be an idiot, cuz no posthumous afterburn

and you cant be a pussy long, sooner or later you have to do a crazy flank to not just have a direct downgrade sitting in your loadout

god i fucking hate the fire axe

wish the fire axe got healing from extinguishing as its upside and extinguishes enemies on death as downside

[fossil roost]

Playing passively is possible but it's not very effective or engaging.

[hybrid dagger]

admittedly should've used a but i did think it was a little bit of a cool idea

[kind turtle]

I'm very conflicted about this weapon

I've heard that people don't like having to hold it out to heal off, but I actually think it's the most interesting part of the weapon. I sort of like that it sort of takes a lot of tricky pyro weapons and puts them on one weapon... but I also miss my axtinguisher

Especially in TF2c where we dont have the awfully unbalancing effects of the powerjack at play

[kind turtle]

I guess I think the most disurptive element of the weapon is that its sort of a general buff to the pyro that you can't really compete with using the stock fireaxe. In my proposal doc for Jtweaks, I take the position that pyro might be best rebalanced as a combat engineer as opposed to a mishmash of a powerclass with some utility

I really think that the homewrecker effects should be grafted onto the fire axe

except maybe the removes-sappers-in-one-hit thing, that just seems to needlessly push the calculus in a certain direction

I think sort of unlocking the sapphic-autistic gameplay potential of the pyro essentially involves a marriage between uh utility pyro and puff and sting

Which in a lot of cases involves sorts of marginal changes like that

[orchid wraith]

hmm. Im of the opinion that stock melee ought to have traits which seperate them from other classes melee. in the case of scout, engineer, spy, and technically demo, this is already the case, because of scouts different Swing speed, engies building repair, spies backstabbing, and demos ability to get drunk. heavy I can see leaving his fists the same, cuz it balances wildly well with the chains. pyros stock melee is so egregious because theres both never a reason to take it out and barely a reason to equip it, because hes a short range class. the same issue of being short range primary users also applies to scout and heavy, tbh. soldier suffers from his stock being fucking boring as hell compared to the anchor. all snipers melees are boring and outclassed by the smg, so thats meh.

[fossil roost]

I think that is far out of scope for TF2C

[fossil roost]

As for this, fuck no lol

Pyro already counters 2 out of 3 of Spies core gameplay mechanics

He does not need to counter all 3

[orchid wraith]

agreed. its only really a big issue for the fire axe in particular

[orchid wraith]

also agreed, if the spy successfully kills the engie, he ought to still be able to kick down the nest.

[kind turtle]

Oh, I don't know if I put this but yeah actually in my notes I put it shouldnt be able to remove sappers. I actually think I put that it should share the defuse thing with the wrench

I have to see what's possible within the limitations but yeah

[orchid wraith]

i wish using airblast on dynamite packs makes em roll further away

[fervent plaza]

ive been brainstorming an idea for a spy revolver thats like doubling down on gun spy by disabling backstab

[fossil roost]

I'm not sure that disabling backstab would add anything meaninful to spy

Without it, why would you not just play a different class that shoots better?

[fervent plaza]

Spy can see enemy health and sap buildings and disguise

Picking targets is much easier when you can see their health

[fossil roost]

It's also a lot easier when you can one shot them from behind, which is the main purpose of disguising.

What mechanic could you add to a revolver that would mimic the mechanical depth and power of a backstab?

Especially when picking off targets with it is something you can already do well with the stock revolver

[fervent plaza]

Giving it good range

Better damage and a second shot that minicrits (disabling damage falloff)

Plus a solid damage bonus

[fossil roost]

Well, you've made it strong, but that's not really mechanically interesting

[fervent plaza]

and the backstab is?

[fossil roost]

Yeah, actually

[fervent plaza]

no it isnt dude

the only thing that makes the backstab interesting is the janky hitboxes

[fossil roost]

Trickstabbing is not what makes backstabs interesting

[fervent plaza]

killing somebody instantly is not an interesting mechanic

its a satisfying mechanic sure

but there isnt much nuance

[fossil roost]

What makes backstabs interesting is that they're a reward for doing well at every other aspect of Spy. In order to get one, you need to use your cloak to get behind the enemy and your disguise to blend in long enough to get one and get away. You're able to use your tools in order to position yourself in such a way that you can get an important backstab and get out.

[fervent plaza]

all of those could apply to the revolver concept

btw you still get to keep the knife as a melee

and when you backstab an enemy 9 times out of 10 you're dead right after that

[fossil roost]

A 45 damage slow swinging melee is not very interesting. With a powerful revolver, there's no real reason to use your disguise because you're not trying to get close to the enemy team. This also means you're not attacking sentry nests as often, and your cloak is relegated to a movement tool to run around the enemy backlines, gunning them down from long range.

[fervent plaza]

40*

[fossil roost]

This is where the "good positioning to get the stab and get away" thing comes from

If you're dying right after, you either took a calculated risk and figured it was worth it, or you didn't position well enough to get away.

[fervent plaza]

good positioning is so rare bro do you play spy

[fossil roost]

He's only my most played class by a couple hundred hours in the thousands I've put into Live and TF2C combined. You have all the tools to get good positioning, it's not a luck based chance. If it is, you're not very good at Spy.

[fervent plaza]

oh god no wonder you're such a pain to talk to

[fossil roost]

Hey man, you asked. I just think that replacing Spy's main gimmick that plays into all of his other tools by giving him a Revolver that just deals more damage and doesn't isn't very interesting.

There's gotta be more to it than more damage. That's why the ambi and diamondback aren't very interesting weapons.

[fervent plaza]

wow a spy main that thinks those revolvers arent interesting, thats rare

[fossil roost]

I think stock is interesting, but I don't think any of Lives other revolvers are all that interesting iterations of it.

A new revolver has to do something to set itself apart and do something equally as interesting and flexible as stock. That's a pretty tall order on its own.

[fervent plaza]

if it makes it any more interesting its meant to be like a 2 shot derringer type

[fossil roost]

I mean, not really. It's gotta be more than just "more damage and better range"

[fervent plaza]

resistance penetration like the enforcer (including sapper armour)

[fossil roost]

Good start but not enough to make up for backstabs

[fervent plaza]

would you want it to give you 200 health back and a speed boost on kill or something

no

you are ridiculous man

[fossil roost]

No, because honestly I don't think that's interesting either

[fervent plaza]

for a spy main you seem to think spy is very uninteresting

[fossil roost]

I think stock Spy is very interesting

I think that most of his weapons in Live are not.

Most of his knives are just iterations of the same basic concept, and the only one that really impacts how he has to think about his positioning and movement is the YER. As for the Revolvers, the ambi is the most interesting but that's not saying much.

[fervent plaza]

If you think spy unlockables arent interesting why are you even talking to me discussing one

[fossil roost]

If Spy were to have a new Revolver, I'd want it to have less sustainability and range than stock. I really like the idea of a 2 shot revolver that deals more damage than stock at close ranges, but has more spread and falloff.

[fervent plaza]

Finally some actual feedback

[fossil roost]

Because I think there can be interesting Spy unlocks. The tranq gun was one prior to some of its nerfs and reworks, and the YER speaks for itself

[fervent plaza]

the tranq gun is not interesting are we fr

[fossil roost]

Emphasis on was

It used to have more focus as a support tool with the shank being sort of a last resort self defense option or way to secure kills on lone snipers rather than the shank being the primary reason to use it.

that was pre-2.1 though, not a lot of people remember it.

It had flexibility and power to compete with stock without outclassing it due to the lack of range and sustained damage.

[fossil roost]

I like the idea of giving a revolver disguise on kill and silent killing.

[fervent plaza]

yeah that sounds like a cool idea too

i've seen a concept gun sorta similar that doesnt break disguise when shooting

[fossil roost]

I feel like that'd just be frustrating to fight

[fervent plaza]

i think disguise on kill works better

[fossil roost]

Agreed

[fervent plaza]

Well thank you for the feedback, even if it took you a while to give some

[fossil roost]

Your passive aggressiveness is noted

[fervent plaza]

you're a spy main you are hard to talk to

[fossil roost]

I'm just saying that trying to create a revolver alternative that's interesting is hard on its own. Trying to create a revolver alternative that's worth giving up backstabs while still being interesting and fun to fight is monumental.

[tulip drum]

I saw an medic weapon in my dream but it will absolutely make no sense since it is an dream. It was an primary as an grenade except it is an flechette grenade that spawns like dozens of syringes sprayed over an room in sphere like radius around it.

[cold bone]

ambassador

[fervent plaza]

My idea has a 50% damage bonus which means it does just about the same damage as that with Max ramp up

[cold bone]

Then why not another classes?

That can shoot people better

Disguises are useless for gunspy without knife

If you can't oneshot engineer, what's the point in sapper

Then sniper is better lmao

Gunspy in live at least can stab

And has disgusting yet stab requiring DiamondBack

[cold bone]

torch: -35% dmg, ignites after hitting a burning enemy, granting speed boost during ignition and deals crits when it should mini-crit. locks ability to use primary after ignition
gas canister: jarate for melee dmg (mini-crits for melee), makes afterburn triple longer and four times weaker. melee kill refills half of a charge,

pyroknight, i dunno

[runic grotto]

Weapon idea: flare gun, but you extinguish people with it instead, and gain ammo for extinguishing people, but you don't start with any ammo for it and it fires mini-crit rockets. I might nerf it to normal rockets in my own weapon pack though, not sure.

[cold bone]

Manmelter 🥹

[hollow tiger]

manmelter

[runic cobalt]

melter of men

[kind turtle]

what did it do before? ive heard people really hate on this thing

[fallen wasp]

Slowed the enemy's movement speed, reload speed, firing speed (melee included), weapon switching speed, and minigun revving

[fossil roost]

It didn’t affect weapon firing rate, just melee swing speed, and it also affected minigun unrevving as well

Basically, it made it so the tranqed enemy had less wriggle room when in direct fights, but wasn’t totally neutered. In addition, it was a lot riskier to go for a tranq

[kind turtle]

ah i do like it right now

i think the thing i probably like least about tf2c design philosophy is the autoreload single shot thing i guess is fine i just think active management is a little more intentional

but it also works for the weapon

in my mod i might make a variation of it for medic maybe more shots different debuff

[kind turtle]

i probably would put it on a knife concept although nobody's really convincingly pulled it off

adding is:sword might make it good for, like, tranq combos? but i think most players would see it as niche

[hybrid dagger]

tbf the ultimate goal of spy is to backstab someone

[fervent plaza]

Sap buildings and sew paranoia

[hybrid dagger]

yes but you wouldn't be such a threat if you weren't able to backstab anyone

[kind turtle]

i guess i want to ameliorate this problem in my mod, where i sort of want to get into a different way of looking at the 'concept' of being a spy or any other class and explore that outside of the role that they were sort of imagined as

the inside jab is the clear winner for best alternate concept for knife i think. but it hasn't really been used in a way that's uh... we could say inspired

[hybrid dagger]

if you could only shoot and sap, sure you'd be annoying but you wouldn't cause paranoia

you wouldn't cause chaos

[kind turtle]

uh if you actually look in the tf2c files there's a concept for a radar sapper and a smokebomb invis watch that probably werent added for good reasons

[hollow tiger]

smokebomb invis watch would be funny

[kind turtle]

oh its literally an attribute

no idea if it works

you can try it right now i think

[hybrid dagger]

ehh, maybe they can still pull them off somehow

[hollow tiger]

no lol I'm in bed

[hybrid dagger]

smokebomb i think is just a remnant from legacy tf2c but radar sapper wasn't in legacy iirc

[kind turtle]

yeah... uh my big spy concept that i think is 100% good is a builder weapon replacing the sapper that uh emits a field with like silent killer no scoreboard type stuff and disables buildings. but it can be destroyed, uses cloak as metal, all stuff where like a player who has their shit together can deal with it but it's still a really big problem, just different

(it would probably have to be coded as a sentry shooting everything around it to prevent through-walls type cheesing_

way beyond my technical level i fear

[hybrid dagger]

interesting

[kind turtle]

obviously like the dna kit disguise kit replacement thing too which is really just like uh a way for the YER to not be tied to a knife since i don't think really think having multiple of the same type of weapon on the same class is too interesting

i guess ive done some stuff with multiclassing weapons, i dont know if it really helps gameplay at all or not since it undermines unique class identity--- it's actually a rather complex struggle

the reason i bring this up is in relationship to the original question

as far as i can tell although i havent done it specifically spy with a pistol will just use the pistol theres no reason why spy primaries need to all be revolvers except for convention

[fossil roost]

Most attributes that are publicly released are due to weapons using that attribute being scrapped

[kind turtle]

yeah i guess does that mean its likely to be unusable

buggy i think all of us can handle

[fossil roost]

Ehh, it's a power thing.

Revolver fire much more slowly than pistols but deal more damage.

It's better for picking off enemies quickly at range, and also just feels better than a semi auto pistol

[kind turtle]

i mean in terms of gamefeel you want spy to make really decisive actions so like plinking away at someone with a pistol (if the spy had the stock pistol) just doesn't fit spys character

that being said even though it's not actually my favorite concept i put it in my notes to try this with the uh ambassador thing

[hybrid dagger]

not entirely

[fossil roost]

Hence the "most"

Iirc the l'escampette and AAC both had custom weapon variants made of them prior to their official release

[kind turtle]

i looked at the files, yeah you can just slap crits on headshot onto a pistol and that would pretty easy. i dont know if the ambassador crosshair bloom is hardcoded, because most custom smgs that can headshot or whatever kinda suck because they dont feel super intentional with weapon spread

ill see how this plays, it really adds next to nothing besides giving spy, like, another weapon

[kind turtle]

i dont know how i feel about like the slower fire rate = better thing

i wonder if you could add an attribute that would make you click for each shot

i know this was how pistols were on release (you could set up a macro that turned it into an instakill because there wasnt a max firerate) but i think they would honestly feel more responsive if they werent bullethoses

[fossil roost]

It's less a slower fire rate so much as it is burst damage generally feeling better than dps

[kind turtle]

there we go, that might be at least interesting to play with

im so so on readding an amby but i think a 3 shot burst (where 2 of the shots are inaccurate) would reward that close range action spy playstyle without like having the annoying invisible sniper thing

(spread is a bit of a fucking nightmare here)

i added coilgun on pyro today (thanks chaotic for basically doing all the work showing me how to do it)

[kind turtle]

without modification its straight up bad

it just gives pyro too much poke

[hybrid dagger]

still waiting on the manual deploy pda

[kind turtle]

manual deploy?

[fossil roost]

I suppose the real question is, what's the point of giving a revolver headshots in the grand scheme of things?

[kind turtle]

no real reason i guess for me just like why would i have that in my mod i wouldn't

[fossil roost]

Unless its the type of mod where it feeling good/cool is enough justification, in which case, fair enough

[hybrid dagger]

or remote signal

[fossil roost]

Oh wait I've misunderstood

You're making it burst fire in replacement of the headshot

I see

[kind turtle]

with the caviat actually no im obsessed with machine pistols and that might just be enough of a justification because theres usually something to a hyperfixation

[kind turtle]

yeah specifically im thinking pistol quick 3r burst minicrits on headshot (im not happy with how this works because i dont like the idea you can whiff because of random spread, but attributes are kind of limiting)

it doesnt serve too much of a gameplay value besides players really liking that on spy

[fossil roost]

Doesn't seem powerful enough to really justify replacing the revolver

The reason headshots on the ambi work is the insane damage, full crit, and perfect accuracy

[kind turtle]

what i would ideally do is like a 3r burst where the first round is perfectly accurate and can get that crit boost for big damage and the next two follow-up shots can take someone out

it would really have to be tweaked a lot in gameplay, i dont think its that fecund but it is like... if it feels good to use it would be a crowd pleaser and it wouldnt be disruptive

huh, the inviswatch is in the pda2slot

[fossil roost]

I mean, ig if the only focus is on something that feels different, but I dont see it being a serious competitor to the revolver outside of that

[kind turtle]

um no i totally agree but if it used a good skorpion model it would make me feel warm inside

[fossil roost]

Fair enough

[kind turtle]

i guess when were discussing hitscan weapons wed be remiss not to mention how the new AA gun mechanics do work on other weapons

thats interesting... i also think incorporating tfc and ff concepts for spy might be good

i guess i could see what the nailgun would be like, although i think the answer is overpowered and ill fitting

spy weapons are just so hard to design really, like theres not much you can do without committing to a high script design

mostly i think the dead ringer and YER could be implemented in better ways

[fossil roost]

Idk how you'd implement the YER better than it already is

[kind turtle]

pda slot

ive done some sketches about not being able to select your disguise

uh did a dna gun / camera concept, bodysnatcher shit just basically higher concept

its kind of a low concept weapon in valves original implementation

[fossil roost]

I mean, it's simple and intuitive. Idk what you mean by low/high concept.

[kind turtle]

high concept is like just it being sort of realized or having a reason why it would function that way i guess

[fossil roost]

That feels somewhat out of line with TF2 as a whole

[kind turtle]

thats my main issue wrt the game in a lot of ways

like i would like it to be some james bond concept instead of a vaguely orientalist magical weapon... something that fits the character of the universe and the character

[fossil roost]

I feel like trying to have a canon and logic reason/justification for everything is a very new concept and I'm rather tired of it

[kind turtle]

i think like, readability is a part of juice

it also just feels like a disguise kit concept on the knife slot

id rather there be like, an assassination tool that is very much not a knife

[fossil roost]

I mean, ig you could apply it to a disguise kit, but that feels like it could result in some rather strong combinations

I think it also only applying to backstabs means that it being on a knife feels a lot more intuitive

If you applied it to all spy kills, maybe you could apply it to a disguise kit slot.

That feels rather powerful though.

[kind turtle]

that might be it, but its also really passive. i think i had a concept for a camera weapon

uh that might like fire an absurdly forgiving number of invisible pellets that apply a hidden debuff only the spy can see that lets you take someones disguise when you kill them

i feel like that maybe with using 'last disguise' to be able to to drain cloak just to get someones disguise is like a decent workaround

[fossil roost]

That seems kind of overcomplicated compared to the YER.

[kind turtle]

yeah but i also think spy can handle it

it might be also cool if players just dropped the mvm player down nodes when they died and you could walk over those to disguise as them as a passive type thing. wouldnt be as juicy and might be confusing with ragdolls

[fossil roost]

I feel like adding an extra step to the process doesn't add anything though

[kind turtle]

yeah, thats where you'd want it to have some sort of unique utility

the reconaissance / espionage side of spy is underexplored

custom weapons mods usually just give spy the ability to outline players, which i dislike because i think it feels cheap

needs more time in the oven

[fossil roost]

I mean, I feel like that's mostly because there's not really an interesting way to implement "okay so you sit there and watch the enemy for a bit"

Especially when you have an active timer via cloak

[kind turtle]

admittedly no i think if you got a little passive buff for sneaking into the enemy base and taking a bunch of pictures of them i think that would certainly make for fun moments

i think giving the player a good reason to do that would be rather amusing to see what players do- and whats pretty obvious would be like if you were to get cloak from it and you're tagging players for your little photography database

yeah i think doing that and planting bugs/jammers in the enemy base are really the two concepts id want to explore on spy

[fossil roost]

That doesn't sound like it'd be very interesting in practice. Ultimately, you're just encouraging them to stand in some out of the way spot constantly taking pictures in order to stay cloaked.

[kind turtle]

um youre saying that but i cant stop thinking about how funny of an image that is

thats why i really love civilian and think hes a great addition because hes just kind of hilarious to watch as he runs around really scared and yells at other people to do things

[fossil roost]

A funny image doesn't really make for engaging or interesting gameplay

Especially when that gameplay boils down to pressing the same button over and over while standing in a corner

Its the cloak and dagger issue

Civ is funny, yes, but he also has engaging gameplay thanks to his aura and boosts

[kind turtle]

oh i totally disagree that it would play like that though, i think it could certainly be the way a player whos dicking around might play, but in practice it seems like it would be a good idea to basically have spy set up trickstab style plays by having to case the team first

it'd also mean you could grab a disguise from shooting a low health player

[fossil roost]

Okay but like. In those situations it's just an extra, inconvenient step.

The situation where I would get the most out of it and where it is the most convenient is where I am standing in a corner spamming left click

Especially since it means that I can decloak whenever I want and get kills with free disguises

[kind turtle]

yes, it would mean spy has a much lower apm and more things to set up before making plays in exchange for a potentially larger payoff rewarding an alternate playstyle that plans in advance

[fossil roost]

Instant disguising after killing a lone player is not very useful

So I would be limiting my time and making things less convenient for myself in exchange for a mostly meaningless reward

The situation where instant disguising is best is when there is a large groupf of enemies

This is also the same situation where I would want to be standing in a corner and hiding

[kind turtle]

i have in mind a huge aoe, that you could pull it out and literally everyone on your screen would be copyable

[fossil roost]

I figured, yes.

[kind turtle]

maybe taking pictures would kill your disguse and produce a noticeable flash. could be cool psychological warfare

its a shame that uh this is really beyond my tech skills

[fossil roost]

That sounds very punishing for comparatively little payoff

It would make your backstabs more visually noisy which... kind of defeats the point of instant disguising

[kind turtle]

its a little early to say... i think spy going around taking pictures of people and adding them to his little database would definitely have a powerful psychological and behavioral aspect since you know that someone is planning on backstabbing you and stealing your identity

if it was something more like heads and lasted for the life then it could be a serious drain on player attention which i like. i think spy needs weird and nefarious things to do in the background

[weary hazel]

so i thought about making a weapon for every class to solve pyro's problem, (i excluded soldier, pyro, demoman, heavy, and scout, engineer, because there's already weapons or weapon suggestions that solve pyros problem for those classes. and i excluded sniper because fuck him.)
alr heres my idea ** ** ** ** s
a medi gun that medic uses to heal him self passively without having the medigun holsterd, but you can't holster the medigun, you can still über your self when you're at 100% über.
an invis watch that makes you dash, dashing takes 25%, you're intangable when dashing, you can't go invis.
cevilian gets big mech.

@steady zephyr

@versed shell

[hybrid dagger]

he's gone off the deep end

[weary hazel]

me or mario?

or green mario

[hybrid dagger]

you.

[weary hazel]

alr that narrows it down to me or you

[weary hazel]

is it because spy dashing would be to op?

[runic grotto]

I think it could be really disruptive if there was a way to make enemies think there's a spy around when there isn't, maybe some sort of "halucination gun" that makes enemies hear the disguise/undesguise/cloak/uncloak sounds. I don't play spy very often but a sort of "troll spy" subclass sounds pretty funny.

[runic grotto]

spy dash is an interesting idea on the surface, but one thing that should be asked is why can spy dash.
as for the medigun idea, being unable to holster the medigun completely invalidates Medic's other two slots (primary and melee) which he needs to defend himself when he's caught alone or can get Uber from the occasional spy 1v1. That said, most medics spend a lot of time on their medigun, so it's not that bad.
civ getting a big mech really depends on how strong the mech is. If it just trades civ's ability to buff his team for more health and damage resistance, it's actually kinda understandable given how easy it is for civ to die, and how punishing it is when he does die.

[weary hazel]

the mech increases mele range, mele damage, jump hight, air control, and health, and gives knock back resistance, and fall damage immunity, in exchange for no buffs, and a bigger hit box.

[kind turtle]

"4355"
        {
            "name"                    "disguise as dispenser on crouch"
            "attribute_class"        "disguise_as_dispenser_on_crouch"
            "description_string"    "Disguise as an enemy Dispenser when crouching"
            "description_format"    "value_is_additive"
            "effect_type"            "neutral"

please fucking work

[kind turtle]

this is a different game

i like where your head is at thoughg

[weary hazel]

thank you 😊

i would send you my "thank you" gif but it's banned in this server

[kind turtle]

#modding-discussion found some promising stuff reading the documentation

its contingent on attributes actually working*

stuff like charged airblast i think i found the short circuit airblast too it makes sense that the old non ball short circuit functioned as an airblast

i think "attack projectiles" lets you destroy projectiles which is good

um mini rockets what the airstrike uses no idea if tf2c has the resources

[weary hazel]

i want spy to dash inorder to solve pyro's problem

[kind turtle]

lots of stickybomb stuff

[kind turtle]

what is pyros problem

[weary hazel]

secret :3

[kind turtle]

ok

for certain, i want to make a mini rocket and airstrike-beggars archetype weapons, maybe with a rocket charge

i think that you can make rockets charge, have that increase velocity, and have them explode on a timer

uh i think i found the correct attributes for my minelayer rework although calling them mines might be misleading

i had a big problem with my attempts to make the grappling hook have a charge or two for scout (i wanted burst movement, its probably doable through parachutes / thermal thruster additives)

it works as a soldier primary though, at least i think? way more interesting at least to me than the rocket jumper, with the anchor you can notably grapple the ground and get an increase in speed which is really cool, i think this sort of reinvents demoknight and trolldier at the same time

[formal valley]

with how much people use this there should just be a channel for spitballing lwk

[fallen wasp]

It's called general

[formal valley]

general is for general talk, i mean a channel specializing in spitballing

[stray ocean]

Are there any plans to add a sword-type weapon to the game for one of the characters?

[hollow tiger]

Harvester

[stray ocean]

SHIT U RITE :O

I guess the Harvester does the Eyelander’s job pretty well without being too OP…

[hollow tiger]

fucking love the harvester tbh

it uses the diamondback philosophy of "crits for doing your job"

but you still gotta work for it

[alpine glade]

Idea:
A demoknight shield that allows you to charge in any direction (even upwards) with the downside of 50% damage decrease on all equipped weapons.
Design would be something like a windmill or something for the medieval style the shields have.
Inspiration from that one custom heavy weapon (the Flying Bolshevik)

[formal valley]

bag of wind, lets demo charge in any direction OR airblast

[alpine glade]

Wait
BAGPIPES

[formal valley]

just realized its basically a saxton charge

[alpine glade]

Oh yeah you're right

[unreal torrent]

What classes would best benefit from a jet or hoverpack without being too overpowered?

[hollow tiger]

pyro already has thermal thruster

[unreal torrent]

Yes. But who else would benefit?

[hollow tiger]

i can't think of anyone

heavy doesn't need mobility, his class hinges around being slow

sniper shouldn't get mobility because that causes problems

soldier has the rocket launcher

demoman has stickies

engineer has jump pad; he doesn't really need more mobility

[unreal torrent]

I think spy would benefit. He couldn't get anything too over the top, but any form of mobility tech would do him well.

[hollow tiger]

medic shouldn't need mobility; the quick fix is your best bet for "mobility medic"

[hollow tiger]

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Travel_Agent

[fossil roost]

Spy maybe

[unreal torrent]

As far as a spy hoverpack goes, my opinion on it's stats is that it should have the ability to hover up to a particular height relative to where you start, and the ability to hold at that level. It would allow a spy to cross gaps, wait in weird locations, and so on.

[fossil roost]

#1456047392016171119 thoughts?

[unreal torrent]

I think it could work.

[kind turtle]

Ok this is a really interesting query

There are actually several ways to interpret things I guess before moving into suggestions

Um I think that the Admiralty Anchor is actually very swordlike- it's actually very similar to a combination sword and shield on demoknight- I think it's actually a little prettier than demoknight, IF you can get a grappling hook working on soldier

I was able to but it doesn't work in the primary slot which makes me a little miffed

Anyways, I think it's totally usable as a primary with a hook- With a grappling hook you can like, hook straight down and gain a lot of velocity that way

I sort of guess the question is what does sword mean to you- a melee weapon used as a primary, or as a literal actual sword?

[stray ocean]

I should’ve clarified that I meant a literal, actual sword… TwT

[kind turtle]

Hmm I'm trying to think about how to implement one that works for the game idek

My main concept for a demo sword is that your movement speed is added to it as damage

[stray ocean]

Anyone got any ideas for Scout, Demoman, Engineer, and Spy melees that offer utility beyond what their stock variants can do?

[formal valley]

i was thinking of a demo secondary that reloaded faster in exchange for damage or sum

[stray ocean]

I was thinking we could do a Scout melee akin to the Sandman, minus that stupid stun mechanic that nobody fucking likes, but then I realized that the Brick is literally just the Sandman’s alt-fire with some much-needed tweaks.

[formal valley]

i didnt see melees lol

i was thinking what if demo had a market gardener?

like the scottish handshake with the gardeners stats

[stray ocean]

Yeah, I think the Demoman should get his own version of the Admiralty Anchor.
Obviously, it would need some minor tweaks in both design and stats to better fit the Demoman, but it absolutely can be made to work.

[formal valley]

now that i think abt it, the idea of an anchor fits demo more than solider

[fallen wasp]

Not really since Demos rarely carpet bomb unless they're running gunboats

[hybrid dagger]

you'd be surprised how many people like the stun

[runic grotto]

Idea: helmet for medic that takes away his syringe gun for +15 HP. The downside is no syringe gun, but the upside is you survive a little bit longer than normal

[cold bone]

Useless

Sniper can always shoot and spray or charge longer or deal 2 headshots

[runic grotto]

that statement really only works in a vacuum
if, say, we were on payload, medic could have a moment to get behind a heavy, a soldier, etc, or make use of the cart for cover (to be fair you basically should always use the cart as cover, especially on a choke point) or a control point map, I would have some time to retreat to cover and likely eventually make it to a dispenser. Not to mention, Medic very much benefits from being around his team, meaning there's basically never a reason for him to leave his team, which would likely notice the sniper shot and focus on him if there's nothing else important going on

even koth maps usually a lot of cover spots and ways to get back to the team, +15 health basically just means you don't die instantly to headshots (which medic is often the target of), and it's not supposed to be a "Medic is invincible11!!!1!" type of weapon.

[cold bone]

Why sniper can't just charge longer then?

Revolver already sucks in "instakill" thing and shoots faster, stock can be charged longer

I don't see any usecase outside of "fuck quickscopers"

[runic grotto]

sniper already charges for heavy too so I don't get your point here?

[cold bone]

Sniper should kill medic first, especially when he use revolver

[runic grotto]

he still can though?

[cold bone]

This weapon really works only against 1 neglectable for enemy scenario and can sometimes clutch 2 rockets under feet

[runic grotto]

Medic still would lose in a 1v1 against Sniper because no syringe gun means no range

actually, Medic loses all 1v1s because no range

but still

[cold bone]

I mean that others can easily deal these extra 15hp and the entire point of weapon is to screw quickscopers so it's closer to danger shield and razorback than another weapons with "base hp changed" thing.
Gunslinger in live gives you extra HP to play a bald scout with smol cheap assistant sentry.
Big earner increases speed making chainstabs and runaways easier

I understand the idea but maybe it should be at least more active?

[runic grotto]

Fine then, I'll add Demo knight charge and people can play Medic-Knight
-# /j obviously, but I might do that for another weapon idea in the future

Perhaps increased melee swing speed and weapon switch speed? Or even a weaker version of the Overdose's speed boost based on Uber charge?

[cold bone]

Speed boost is ok

[weary hazel]

oh yeah now i remember

a demoman weapon that gives you 1 second of speed boost ever 2 seconds

so like

it's like you're drunk

[runic grotto]

maybe every third projectile looks like a payload cart from your perspective

[sterile holly]

Had an idea for how to sorta do demo knight without doing sword+shield and all that

Scotland's Finest
+While active: Increased movement speed
+Melee Damage
-Reduced explosion damage
-No Random crits

Essentially the idea would be that this weapon is meant to give Demo a better weapon to use at close range if he would be worried about self damage or can't use stickies in time. The reduced damage on explosion is obviously the big downside but does also mean if you are using the gunboats you take even less damage and also have this melee to be more dangerous against classes that get close.
Also as a fun bonus thing I imagine the taunt would be demo doing a partner taunt by holding two shot glasses and sharing a drink. Enemies would take damage from doing it (either insta kill like most taunt kills or just some damage) and after enough drinks you would become drunk like demo does with his bottle.

[tulip drum]

Punt Shotgun for Heavy. Its an secondary. It has magazine and max ammo of only one. Ammo boxes won't work and you need respawn cabinet to get another bullet. Holding mouse 2 while wielding it makes you hold the gun in position front of you and cannot shoot it without doing this first (like revving an minigun) (mouse 1 will force to position it similar to miniguns revving). Stats: Pellets have no damage fall off, this means sniping somebody with it and hitting enough pellets will be like being shot upclose. Minicrits airborne targets. Knocks back the victim to pushed backwards. Shooting this thing pushes you back like double barrel shotgun except amplified by 4 times.

Lore accurate to an real one. Gigantic shotgun mounted on boats to hunt birds in mass scale. Except heavy is big enough to solo carry this.

[hollow tiger]

at least give him some more reserve ammo

i'm ok with 1 in the clip but at least give me 6 reserve

[tulip drum]

It would give heavy too much range and mobility. You don't wanna get shot by this frequently.

After my too many overpowered weapon concepts. This one needs an safetly rail by having only one shot. You gotta make it count for right moment

[hollow tiger]

we don't need more caber weapons 😭

[tulip drum]

You still have minigun tho, you can shoot at your feet then equip minigun and start revving midair. Sacrificing massive damage potential for mobility instead

Also covers weakness of anti air gun by more range

[hollow tiger]

yeah but then you're at the same problem as running sandvich

except now you have a single use "fuck you" button instead of heals

if it was on a cooldown i'd also be ok with it

[tulip drum]

If we tune weapon down to have cooldown instead of one bigshot, it will just become worse shotgun. We aleady have stock shotgun if you wanna keep shooting xd

[hollow tiger]

that's the problem

this feels like niche worse shotgun

one of the things i get told and i tell myself even

heavy doesn't need mobility

[tulip drum]

Well "revving" an shotgun to make an single big jump is slow so heavy cant just dodge boolets that way

But verticality can be sure effective if an heavy flies to your face and revs his minigun

[runic grotto]

just make it the blunderbus from cursed halo
nothing could go wrong with the blunderbus from cursed halo

[fervent plaza]

i saw a video about those knives that have co2 canisters in them and i think that could be an interesting idea to play around with for a spy knife sidegrade

maybe movement tech for spy 😱

idk think you could do something interesting as a mechanic based of that kind of knife

[runic grotto]

Needler from halo
primary for Scout, secondary for Pyro, Soldier, and Engie.
Also without the homing thing that's from halo because I think that'd be pretty bullshit for TF2
for those who don't play Halo:
Positives

• Pistol fire rate
• Bullets are like those of the nail gun
• Projectiles embed themselves into enemies, and explode after 3 seconds (and are removed by health packs and the resupply locker, and also break when shot at walls like the loch n load)
• splash damage
  Negatives
• uh... -25 HP?
  if I'm being honest half way through writing this I realized the needler does not at all fit TF2's design philosophy in the slightest 😭

[runic grotto]

spy knife that puts a bomb the enemy i backstab and lets me play mind games with them so they can blow up and i can explosive jump off of them or something

[fervent plaza]

Istg i saw this in like a Muselk video from years ago

[hybrid dagger]

i remember someone in these threads posted a knife idea that would shoot something out in the direction you're aiming when you backstab

[hybrid dagger]

on the spot random medic primary idea

a weapon with an alt fire that causes little health droplets to fly out of enemies on hit

both the medic and his team can use the health droplets, but enemies destroy them by walking into them

[fervent plaza]

add the sydney sleeper but instead of jarate it just applies tranq

[weary hazel]

a tripwire

that activates when some one walks over it

[desert spire]

Soldier melee that crits blast jumping players, reserve shooter but as a melee

[runic cobalt]

I feel like this might be better on Scout since he can more reliably get up to blast-jumping players but I do like the idea

[runic grotto]

Weapon idea: flaregun (maybe) for scout, primary slot, double ammo compared to flaregun on Pyro
primary intent: combo with sun on a stick

[weary hazel]

but there is no sun on a stick

[runic grotto]

then add one, duh

[runic cobalt]

weapon idea: Sun on a Stick

[runic grotto]

weapon idea: Sun on a Stick and a flaregun for Scout

[weary hazel]

weapon idea: space racer
(+) solves pyro's problem
(-) can't shoot coconuts

[runic grotto]

weapon idea: the anti-spy weapon

• crits against spies
• spy cannot backstab you
  - 99% damage against other classes

[cold bone]

No

You can meatshot people

No need in another high dmg dealing option

[cold bone]

Razorback 2.0

[kind turtle]

Yes. I pretty much can't do this for my mod because it's too advanced for me, but my concept is for a wrench that essentially functions like the M1 of the short circuit, except that the primary fire acts as a wrench, but uses ammo and lights enemies on fire. This is essentially the blowtorch concept. To it, I also want to add the 'cannot haul buildings' function combined with a 'destroyed buildings give 2x metal' function. The concept here, basically, is to to make a wrench that functions something like the jag or gunslinger, where you're not going to be able to haul those level 3 buildings around, but you're really rewarded for scrapping your stuff.
My thoughts are that the M1 having extended range will lead to buildings being built faster. I also think that adding a hidden bonus to build boost and a hidden debuff to repairing is key. Also, M2 should just naturally destroy buildings, and it could also drop a healthpack or something? Really orient it towards a battle engineer playstyle. Needs some refinement

[stray ocean]

ooh, I like!~ :3c

[kind turtle]

Oh yes, I actually haven't implemented this because I just moved to another borough so I haven't been able to work on my mod for like 2 weeks, but I actually have a melee for scout thats a mix of the boston basher, the atomizer, the concussion grenade from tfc, and the sandman. On hit, apply the concussed/drunk effect for 2 seconds, on miss hit yourself idiot.

Lead Pipe

I haven't tested it, but I was thinking about adding the 'slow' effect too. This would be interesting- as we all know, this effect can be negated by strafing, so my idea here is that skilled scout players can use this item to hit themselves and get to the really good flank routes, but need to have good movement and mouse control to overcome the 2 seconds of debuff. I also think that scout just really needs the ability to debuff enemies in general, and throwing it on a melee weapon seems ideal.
I'm also thinking about a self damage push force increase- the idea being you hit yourself, and it really considerably sends you farther upwards moreso than a boston basher jump but less than an atomizer jump. I'm not too fond of on wearer bonuses but if I was I might increase push force kinda like the old shortstop

[kind turtle]

For engineer, I also would add a function on the Coilgun that makes bouncing shots *destroy your own buildings* - base damage 60 x *building level.* At first, my concept for an engineer primary was basically the rescue ranger but it did this, but I realized there's no need for this.
In classic, the coilgun requires metal, and the engineer can detonate his own buildings to deal damage to enemy players- which I, for one, am SHOCKED has just never been implemented, especially because this is literally the coolest thing ever to use with jump pads.
Anyways, I don't consider this being necessary to add a whole new primary weapon for, because the coilgun is already like, my favorite weapon that's been added to TF2C, but I badly want it to be able to interract with buildings in some way. Shooting a clutch ricochet shot to kill the spy sapping your level 3 dispenser is awesome- but it also gives a serious disadvantage compared to the pistol, because if you let off one of these shots in like the house on dustbowl first point or something, you're going to destroy your shit. Basically, I just think it could be this really impactful, technical, sapphic weapon with this one change.

[I would also add damage falloff to it because the crossmaps are bullshit]

[kind turtle]

Sorry to just nuke the chat with all the notes, but it should be noted here that the amount of metal you should get back *ought* to be enough to build another building- basically, you are trading your ability to transport level 3 guns for the ability to devour them to deploy level 1 buildings quickly. This has to be like, worked on, because while this does support a more aggressive playstyle, it might support a defensive turtling playstyle even more, which the wrench is already good at- hence why I think the essentially Jag-ish attributes are crucial to add. To wit, also, there's some difficulty implementing mini-sentries and mini-dispensers with the current PDA slot exclusively featuring teleporters, and it might actually be more worthwhile to tack these *both* onto this weapon?

• What I'd do here is actually make both of these upgradeable to level 3, but having a different upgrade path.
  I think it'd be interesting if the mini-sentry shot nails instead of hitscan projectiles? Another idea is to have it work like the tack shooters in bloons tower defense or like the classic nail grenades, firing a rotating stream of nails in all directions when someone is nearby, and at the highest level pumping out pills and rollers in all directions.

[kind turtle]

OK, I actually also had a concept for medic that is essentially just putting the tranq dart on him. I put this in my mod, but I bricked the game in a way that deleted all weapons on all classes so I have to fix the .txt file. I'm not sure if the debuff should actually be the tranq dart debuff- I was thinking mad milk or jarate would be appropriate- basically, anything that gives medic the ability to make other players 'wet' allows you to go for 300 damage electric crits, which is pretty cool.
Medic possesses an attribute for his weapons to make his primaries use Ubercharge instead of ammo, which I regard as basically fair here- you can go for a guaranteed melee crit on a player, but you use like 25-35% of your ubercharge just to shoot your shot. This is similar to how medic is played in classic, where horrific melee-range debuffs are your most powerful weapon. I'm also concerned about this basically just making spy and medic less unique classes in and of themselves, once I fix my horribly corrupted mod I'll report back on this and see if it's actually something that plays well.

In my research, I've found a couple classic valve-and-unreal type weapons that haven't been implemented- a translocator (teleportation grenade) being the most fruitful concept

[kind turtle]

Yeah I saw the new old weapons pack actually has this for the cut revolver melee for spy that was datamined from Live's files

[kind turtle]

This is actually really cool, and we can see like this is how hunters work in HL2E2 which was released with the orange box, and also this kind of reminds me of the half life hive hand. I think this would be really cool on engineer actually

Homing is fair, but only if the projectile is slow enough.

[runic grotto]

this would be terrifying on engineer if the gunslinger is present

[kind turtle]

Actually, I've been dicking around with the idea for a rocket launcher that actually plays different, and having the rockets stick in walls and explode after a couple seconds is really fucking sweet conceptually. A 3 round salvo of mini rockets, high projectile speed, perhaps a scope? This has serious legs

One thing I've thought about quite a bit is that the direct hit not being able to zoom is a massive missed opportunity. I think the easiest way to do this is to give soldier the hunting revolver as a bucket weapon and replace the projectiles with mini rockets (they're rockets but with an added attribute from the air strike that changes their model)

[kind turtle]

Question; for an RPG rework, would you prefer a zoom, a charge (i.e. stickybomb launcher), both, or a charging zoom (like a sniper rifle?)

[fossil roost]

Why wuld the RPG need a rework?

[hot wren]

yea, i feel is kinda fine as is imo

[kind turtle]

I actually use it a lot... Uh its not imbalanced, actually if anything its a little conservatively balanced. I think with soldier, there are two to three rocket launcher archetypes I'd like to have-- precision (direct hit), quick firing (air strike, beggar's) and I guess rocket jumper / movement (I've tested the grappling hook on soldier and it's rather balanced)... I feel like it could go into the first category

It'd be nice to just have a little more tech with it... I've heard some online pundits critique it as particularly spammy, since it has poor sustain for complex rocket jumps and juggling... I don't think that ought to be corrected by upgrading its ROF, because thats an intensification of spam... so yea basically I think precision archetype might be cool... With a velocity increasing charge, it might be interesting since that would diminish the arc that you can use to hit behind cover...

[kind turtle]

In other words, rule of cool? Another thing some games have is being able to change the fire mode with mouse 2. Basically, just giving it a little more juice for upper level, sketchek type play

[fossil roost]

I think the RPG works because of its simplicity

Ig you could spam it, but it's the least effective and least fun way to play with it

[desert spire]

A passive heavy secondary that charges with good tracking. If you're dealing good damage and your crosshair doesn't leave the enemy you'll build a meter and once its full it will automatically heal you and teammates around you for 80 hp (maybe overheal too?). The meter automatically depletes shortly after you stop tracking enemies.

[runic grotto]

so, the conch for heavy, but automatic?

any banner on heavy is alreayd kinda busted because heavy already does a lot of damage. There's a reason he's the face of every big push, plus his big health pool means it's basically impossible to kill him if he has this equipped

[hot wren]

very true

[fossil roost]

What about some sort of charge that absorbs the damage from his teammatess and gives him a buff for charging a certain amount from them?

[desert spire]

that would be cool too, something that rewards heavy for being heavy would be fun, my idea doesn't even have to heal it could do something else entirely, i just like the core concept of a weapon that rewards good tracking with buffs

[hybrid dagger]

so smth like the paladin's shield

i dig it

[dull trellis]

I encountered this on GameBanana. I was thinking that this could work like the DP-12, a real-life double-barreled pump-action shotgun where you could fire 2 shots (one each barrel) before needing to pump. Its alt-fire could fire both two barrels and pump the weapon instantly, but the firing speed would be slower and would have higher spread compared to single-shot. https://gamebanana.com/mods/560082

[hollow tiger]

so uhh...

the HL2 shotgun?

[dull trellis]

Forgot to mention, but yeah, this was partly based on Half-Life's shotgun for the alt-fire.

[formal valley]

almost 1500 messages lol

[runic cobalt]

What if Heavy had sort of a force-a-nature style recoil on a minigun
More mobility but you can’t hold down areas as well
Not sure what else to add but I kinda like this idea as of now, though with no other stats it would probably be terribly broken

[desert spire]

eh thats been tested on CW servers before and it was kinda awful

heavy with more movement is never fun to fight against

[kind turtle]

Back in the weapon spitballing thread

I haven't really edited my customs folder in like a month which is sort of a bad practice but I think my goal with that project is just to deliver a proof of concept combined with a really long essay since the goal of that project is to synthesize every good concept from the series into 6 weapons for every class, which involves removing most weapons and total reworks on scout, sniper and pyro

[kind turtle]

Anyways I actually have this on my AA cannon rework, but it's not really a gameplay mechanic it might actually be super annoying negative quality of life thing... I swap the minicrits on flying players thing to pushback on direct hit

Actually the AA cannon most closely mirrors the natascha in a lot of ways

[kind turtle]

This is how the Flamethrower in fortress forever works, which I've tested in TF2C and this mechanic is fun but also super jank, because that mechanic actually works on automatic weapons and the movement... Potential you're able to get from it is way different from anything TF2 has

The problem is that it's actually really hard to shoot at players when your aim is knocking you back.

Um, it sort of slows your speed down when you're moving forwards? It doesn't really take affect when you're on the ground, because you're kind of glued to the ground. But if you walk down a 16hu ledge you are going to be pushed, and it's going to take effect.

Actually, just getting this concept working for the heavy would be cool for a minigun that has a faster move speed when spun up? You'd be really slow, walking forwards, while shooting. But you'd move faster while moving backwards with the minigun, maybe at more of an unrevved speed?

[kind turtle]

I'm actually curious as to why this is, if it's owed to heavy's health pool or damage

One of the most popular concepts for heavy involves taking the Tomislav or the assault cannon concept in a more intense direction? New old weapons' heavy machine gun, which is really a light machine gun is a pretty popular addition to modpacks

I've also seen servers add the dynamite pack to heavy, which does allow for faster rollouts at the cost of tanking a lot of damage

I want to say that I think the reason for this is actually the Sandvich which I think is one of the worst... Most broken additions

[errant panther]

would the assault cannon being like pomson but like firing in huge bursts even work

[kind turtle]

Right now, I have heavy as an Off-Class of demoman (although I know in sixes it's often scout players hopping on heavy), and my understanding of the character is that heavy is specialized for focus fire on a single target, and likewise is countered by focused fire or pick classes... Basically being very specialized for defense which can lead to stalemates with enhanced mobility. Not sure if this is something I want to change, like being specialized here makes heavy unique and situational but maybe a more general heavy would be more fun?

[kind turtle]

It's relatively easy to replace bullets with nails, this is something I'm looking at

My current concept for one of heavy's two secondaries is a 'Riot gun' that functions identically to the panic attack, except firing bursts of nails

.. but I'm also curious if the minigun playing like a suped up Nailgun with a very fast rev time might actually ameliorate many of the complaints surrounding additional mobility on heavy

[kind turtle]

You can achieve this by adding a couple lines of code especially if you're just putting it on a minigun or SMG or shotgun or something

[errant panther]

perhaps a syringe gun that trades ammo for damage for heavy secondary or something 🤷

[kind turtle]

One of the most popular heavy concepts I've seen is basically giving heavy a reskinned huntsman sniper

[errant panther]

youch

would probably be hell balancing

[kind turtle]

Oh yeah because it lets heavy play passive... Uh in a lot of mods it's called the trash cannon and it's a slow projectile that explodes

[errant panther]

that one

[kind turtle]

I kind of think that wrt heavy bastion overwatch at least in the best most unique versions and incarnations is a good character to look at... Also orisa

My design doc removes most of scout's weapons, the brick might actually fit heavy although idk

[errant panther]

im thinking of maybe a banner styled weapon where you can send an airstrike

probably has been suggested i dont know

[kind turtle]

Fortress forever gives heavy a ground pound that inflicts a slowing effect around him, and in TFC heavy has a MIRV grenade

Don't really know how area denial on heavy would play, especially since heavy is a difficult class to change because he is incredibly specialized

[kind turtle]

I think something with a really weird fire mode like this might be good for the class

Heavy is really focused on the idea that you can only shoot one target at a time so I've been thinking about if changing that is something that's desirable

I do think that heavy having some type of throwable to play around might help to give the class a little more depth? Tf2c's jump pads really add a lot to me

I've been really interested in the gas passer recently since I think it's actually probably one of the more innovative weapons in TF2, insofar as its charge mechanics go? It's a thought out reimplementation of grenades that is very fair and works with the game... It is just balanced too conservatively for players to use it

Heavy might be the class that would benefit most from a weapon like this...

I guess one of the bigger changes I make is I remove scout's double jump and scattergun

... The replacement being a twin barrel / force of nature thing in the secondary slot. I definitely need to actually test this one, because the problem I wanted to ameliorate was pocket scout

[kind turtle]

In this case, I hope that this having a rather limited amount of ammunition encourages scouts to attack the backline where ammo is more plentiful and harms his sustain playing close to the team

[kind turtle]

This is a cool one, this is also famously featured in chasm the rift which I've never played

[unreal torrent]

Would an engineer building - replacing, say, the dispenser, that makes everyone in the standard dispenser range cloak work, conceptually?

[lofty temple]

would a concept like this work in tf2c?

[hollow tiger]

within 3 km?

do you know how far 3 km is

that's 157480 hammer units

the maximum map size in tf2c is only 32768

[lofty temple]

so thats 1 km?

[hollow tiger]

barely

it's like 800m

[lofty temple]

i'll make it so it follows within 200m

[runic cobalt]

Heavy-Duty Medi-Gun that fires 1 stationary healing orb, healing all players in its vicinity. The orb becomes still after a second of a slow drift forward just so it doesn’t look too odd. When you press M1 again, the previous orb dissipitates & you spawn another one (so only 1 orb at a time)

[hollow tiger]

ok this design sounds really cool

you could make an allusion to ball lightning

the uber could be more like the rejuv uber too, but it moves at a constant speed

like a forced push uber

[opal perch]

trying to think of a hypothetical engineer item that gives you a free upgrade on getting kills

this is very early alpha and im not vibing with the headshot mechanic and the downside is technically non existant if you dont have a sentry sooo still heavily workshopping this idea

core concept is "skip level 1 if you Do The Thing"

might change the wording to be "On Kill: The next building you construct starts at level 2"

[opal perch]

support sapper, takes 3-4 hits and immediately lets every class know that the nest is vulnerable

so a flanking pyro or scout can b-line for it, or your combo knows the nanosecond you start sapping and knows if the engi is close enough to mess with the sapper at all

[hollow tiger]

i like this idea but it feels like two seperate gimmicks in one

[opal perch]

yeah im dropping the headshot part

[hollow tiger]

drop the first downside and the second upside

yeah

[opal perch]

basically as soon as i posted it i just shrugged and took it out

[hollow tiger]

remember engineer's pistols are severely underpowered

so just give him a smaller clip and you've valve'd yourself a weapon

oh wait this is a primary?

damn i misread

i would have put this on secondary

[opal perch]

yeah its a primary i put it there bc i feel like engi should have a passive or something as their next secondary

but regardless of slot im more workshopping the stat concept, it can be attached to a shotgun or a revolver or whatever

[hollow tiger]

i really do like this idea

[opal perch]

thought of a ver thats a wrench with "On Non-Sentry Kill: gain an upgrade token, hitting an unupgraded building will upgrade it, repairing a fully upgraded building will consume a token in place of metal" or something along those lines

with a downside that makes manually doing either thing harder, so tldr kills give you +1 level or a free ~60ish repair metal (cant recall how much you spend in one hit off the top of my head)

basically you roam the map a bit and try and get 1-2 kills before setting up a nest

[opal perch]

another engineer idea, very wip if the lack of name didnt give that away

basically a tf2c'ed frontier justice

can be bumped to 2 shots loaded

metal applied is free of charge and is basically 1-1.5x wrench hits and scales w damage

actually wait lemme remove the sapper part thats vestigial from when it was on kill and not on hit

either way you can functionally repair and shoot when this is equipped, but you need a couple of kills first to do that

update:

[opal perch]

been fucking around with an idea to basically have the quickfix's blast jump mirror on a primary