#Dual Barrel tweaks.

103 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

copper cradle
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Issue: The DB's weaknesses make it feel overly punishing to use and aren't interesting to play against.
It ends up being overly polarizing because it needs to have such bad range and a crippling passive knockback penalty to compensate its high no-hp-cost mobility. The passive knockback penalty in particular is a poor design because it feels terrible to use, but doesn't offer the opponent tangible and consistent ways to take advantage of it.

Suggestion: Remove the passive knockback vulnerability and replace it with something else.
I'll list some ideas but I don't know if any of them are perfect fits:

1: Reduced reload speed. This would help reduce the overall mobility boost, but wouldn't be something the opponent could actually feel in an interaction.
2: User has some kind of extra vulnerability while DB jumping. This could be something like a mark for death or even just having the knockback vulnerability be only during DB jumps at a higher magnitude. This could give players a chance to punish the pyro for using it too aggressively or often without punishing the pyro just for having it in their loadout.
3: Holding the mouse down before shooting the gun causes it to gain knockback over a charge period (similar to the loose cannon's fuse). This would make it worse at overall mobility and worse at jumping while in fights in exchange for the option to use it midair without inflicting self knockback. It could also have an accompanying stat like having its spread increase or decrease with the charge level to give it more flexibility.

long falcon
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the db has knockback vulnerability?

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I've never felt one and the wiki doesn't state it

copper cradle
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im going off personal experience and this interaction. i feel a pretty distinct one bc i use the jetpack very often in live & there are some things that give it away like revolver/pistol shots slowing you down by a noticeable amount on the ground and getting launched super far by shit like headshots (while grounded)

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sleek escarp
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i believe the increased knockback only takes effect when boosting yourself with the tb

proven tulip
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The passive knockback penalty is only when you launch yourself with it, yes

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That and bad range seem like a pretty fine downside for free mobility. I just wish it didn't have a passive reload.

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So your second suggestion as to how to rework it is literally just how it already works

copper cradle
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my hand was off wsad and space for all of those

sleek escarp
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huh, that's kinda weird

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i don't think the knockback stat's meant to apply when not tb jumping

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might be something to make a bug report for

copper cradle
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if its only supposed to be active during jumps then it might explain why the magnitude is so high

sleek escarp
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it appears to be a 50% increase, so yeah - probably not meant to be permanently active

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copper cradle
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made bug reprt

sleek escarp
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good, good

green schooner
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To put my cards on the table I generally don’t like the twin barrel’s core design atm for its pretty brainless pyro mobility which led to a weapon that can’t do anything fun or interesting tech wise because again free mobility.

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I don’t think any of your proposed changes alleviate the core design issues with the TB and instead turn into basically the thermal thruster but hit scan.

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TB Pyros are already pretty easy to kill because of their EXTREMELY predictable travel arc, I don’t think adding marked for death would do anything but make the weapon completely useless for anything other than ambush, same with the charge mechanic. All you’re doing here is making a simple weapon even simpler

copper cradle
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so like the way it works in one of the proposals is the way its supposed to work already but its bugged to always have the knockback vuln

wary marsh
green schooner
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I have still yet to fully master detonator jumping

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I will never, ever likely reach its potential like someone like sketchek could

wary marsh
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so how can it be made less brainless

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the only reason i want this thing to reload slower is if we're talking about tightening the spread on it, but we don't NEED to do that, we have the shotgun already

green schooner
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Adding a second shot would at least allow the weapon itself to be used more than a mobility tool in combat, while allowing chain jumps could allow for some novel movement tech not found in live tf2

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It would also calm people who ask for a FaN since, there ya go.

wary marsh
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i'll admit, a chain jump sounds facinating.

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i wouldn't mind outright removing the knockback applied to enemies. we got airblast, dammit, who needs a knockback secondary

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that's the part i dont get

green schooner
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I don’t mind pyro having CC because he’s basically the CC class

wary marsh
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maybe it's cuz it's an airblast that deals damage or whatever, i get theres differences

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but then we get dangerously close to

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scorch shot turf

green schooner
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It would need to be play tested a lot so I don’t feel comfortable making a suggestion thread about it. I’d also maybe like the twin barrel more if where you shot did more to influence the jump then it currently does. Maybe aiming directly behind you would propel you forward (allowing better horizontal mobility) and at your feet would propel you directly up like a rocket jump

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While crouch jumping would allow the current movement mechanics as normal

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It sort of already does this with the inherent physics of source but it would be cool if there were modifiers that allowed this.

wary marsh
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so like, taking an explosion out of the aacs hitscan blasts, but instead of damage, the blasts deal knockback

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idk, i dont feel like placing your shot is gonna affect where you go any different than just pointing the gun would

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it's why i largely consider the detonator and twin barrel the same because i don't play tf2live anymore and dont get to compare the two very much

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and at what point are we overcomplicating this? giving it two shots is plenty intuitive, some airburst buckshots tetchy

green schooner
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They’re just ideas, how it’s done is less important, what’s more important is that something needs to be done.

wary marsh
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see, about that

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/leaves

green schooner
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Twin barrel is a weapon concept right now that just doesn’t have the sauce yet. There’s nothing keeping me on it other than some pretty cool harvester jumps, but once you realize you can do this in live in more fun and diverse ways it just isn’t that fun.

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It’s an amalgamation of the det, thermal thruster, and FaN and doesn’t hit the highs of any of them but certainly hits the lows.

wary marsh
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i just feel better askin for my hunting revolver tweaks cuz it's a lot easier to fix

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i haven't had any problems with the tb yet, cuz i stick to flare gun

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so i dont know if im the best authority to ask for a change

sleek escarp
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I wonder if the TB would be more fun if you could do fan-style super jumps

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i mean, it'd probably be unbalanced, but it would bring back the fan's most fun mechanic

proven tulip
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The TB does not need a buff

sleek escarp
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that's fair

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it does feel like there's something missing from it though

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i'm not good enough at weapon design to figure that part out tho lol

ivory marten
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The first time i saw the TB my immediate thought was "how is this a pyro weapon?" it has nothing to do with fire, it dose not fit

sleek escarp
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FB? What does the F stand for??

ivory marten
sleek escarp
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fair enough

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f's a lot closer to t than i thought lol

ivory marten
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Engi should have it as a primary, give pyro a new flair or a new primary

sleek escarp
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what would engie need it for, tho? he's already got the coilgun and jump pads for mobility

ivory marten
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my vote for the next meager update (if there is one) is to give all classes 1 or 2 new weapons

wary marsh
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aint up to us

ivory marten
wary marsh
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the devs giveth and the devs taketh away

sleek escarp
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apparently the next update will focus on engie and spy? i think? i might be bullshitting but i think i remember hearing that somewhere

wary marsh
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that'll be interesting

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maybe a new sapper

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probably a new gun

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as long as they're filling slots that dont already have weapons im happy

sleek escarp
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i can't really think of any new spy gun ideas that don't suck

ivory marten
sleek escarp
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i presume they'll be going for the sapper, watch or knife slots

wary marsh
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when i say gun i mean on engie

sleek escarp
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oh yeah, a new engie primary would be cool

wary marsh
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watch has actually been done pretty well. i dont see value in bring the cloak and dager, and lescapantydfnksjdnfskfds is just a better dead ringer

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better for the game that is

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it would be nice to have... idk some other flavor of texas style

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i wanted a molten bolt gun

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to reward consecutive shots at range, but the idea was unpopular

sleek escarp
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i'd honestly like to see them add a projectile primary for engie, like the pomson or rescue ranger (with entirely new stats, of course)

wary marsh
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THE POMSON HAHAHAHAHHAHA

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i think the coilguns the most pomson i can tolerate

sleek escarp
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like the pomson

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and obviously not as shit

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that kinda goes without saying

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-# also, i might be one of the only people who actually kinda likes the pomson lol

wary marsh
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death

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k real fast

proven tulip
proven tulip
sleek escarp
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darn

green schooner
proven tulip
green schooner
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This would make the TB even more of a toy than it already is, the thermal thruster having insane distance hasn’t really given it anything actually cool or engaging to utilize. Most of the cool stuff from the thermal thruster comes from the stomp and the actual trajectory it launches you in

wary marsh
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how about we cut our losses on this one and dont touch it