#Remove faster recharge rate from the Derby Cane

53 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

grizzled viper
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Minicrits on the umbrella and haste on the cane are both similarly powerful effects. Haste does pull ahead slightly due to the greater synergy it has with a majority of classes and weapons, though the Minicrits still have an advantage at farther ranges and in conjunction with explosives due to the removal of damage falloff, but require more coordination and skill on the part of the receiver to make full use of them.

The faster charge time on the cane, though, tips the scales too far in its favor, as being able to proc the effect more frequently just means your team can push up more often with an advantaged player. Even at its current 2 second shorter cooldown, it will naturally outpace the umbrella, so I think it should be removed from the weapon.

grizzled viper
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bumping

opaque topaz
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i've never understood the purpose of the +15% recharge rate on the cane

grizzled viper
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I think that during development they probably tried to make haste as a sidegrade to minicrits, and thought that the cane needed another upside to compete, but that would have been pretty short sighted if that was the case

valid zodiac
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I really think they’re about on the same level tbh

velvet hatch
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same

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i prefer umbrella tho since i feel like it has better wall-breaking

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esp. on chokepoints or on chokier maps

graceful hull
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bump

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derby cane is objectively a far better option; direct upgrade territory

jade marlin
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People saying derby cane is better have never minicrit boosted a sticky demo apparently

grizzled viper
jade marlin
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DPS alone doesn't make it justice to what I said

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Especially on such a complex weapon numbers wise like stickybombs

grizzled viper
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I would argue that the faster firing speed is more impactful than the 35% damage on stickies, since demoman is able to get two stickies out and detonate them almost simultaneously

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Not to mention the greater effective range because of faster charge speed and the walk speed of the demoman himself

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It also covers for demoman's weaknesses since he can space himself easily if he's caught out, and lets him make more mistakes since he can patch them up with more explosives for his enemy to cross

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though the minicrits are good for the typical surprise push, since you can also lay stickies down before getting the buff, demoman becomes a lot better in most situations with haste

jade marlin
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And even if it did

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Yay more range for a 30 dmg sticky

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You know what's better tho?

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Normal charge but that single sticky not having falloff and doing minicrit damage, aka 120 dmg on the lower end

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Literally minicrits do everything haste does better on stock demo

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Range? Minicrits since no falloff

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Self defense? Minicrits since now you can 1 shot scouts and spies

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Spam potential? Minicrits since you don't need to waste time reloading, so you get to shoot 8 stickies that deal more dmg instead of firing 8 faster stickies that deal normal dmg

grizzled viper
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actually I do now agree with you on demoman... but the remaining 8 classes on average get slightly more from haste than minicrits

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And I don't think demoman outweighs the strength of even just the medic with haste alone

jade marlin
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Oh I'd say he does

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If you wanna min max efficiency as civ

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Keep minicrit boosting the good demoman

grizzled viper
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A medic with rejuvenator and haste can outheal massive damage for a handful of players at once, and he ends up building Uber much faster than the other mediguns, even when they are minicrit boosted. The speed also just makes it harder to kill a medic with haste

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You can pump out Ubers nearly back to back if you even just put haste on a rejuvenator medic even for just half your buffs

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and haste is also just better than minicrits whenever there's no fighting, since rollouts are faster and cool downs are shorter

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There's less opportunity cost to using the buff during downtime because of the faster recharge. If you're not fighting, pop it and help someone out, you'll likely get it back in time to push

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you get more done at less cost, while minicrits are almost exclusively used to push

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You get more buffs out because you get to use them more and they have a faster charge, and they are still more powerful than minicrits in most situations!

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this discrepancy is why I think the faster charge needs to go!!!

jade marlin
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juuuust keep giving the demo minicrits for assured victory

valid zodiac
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I mean, I think they're about on par with each other as they are, but if you really wanted to argue against the faster recharge rate, it'd probably be a better argument to mention the utility that the cane allows compared to the umbrella since numbers wise they about line up.

spare trench
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The extra speed on classes like engineer and heavy can do a lot

valid zodiac
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Or on rejuv medics as well. But ofc, umbrellas minicrits increase sentry firing speed, and, most significantly, uber build speed

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Buffing uber build and healing speed by 35% is pretty nuts

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Its also worth noting that the recharge rate has a 2 second difference

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Umbrella is better for situations where you need to hold an area or wait for a push, while cane is better for situations where you and your team are playing more aggressively

grizzled viper
# valid zodiac I mean, I think they're about on par with each other as they are, but if you rea...

this is ultimately the crux of my argument, but i baited myself into arguing against a point i myself made in the original post. on top of having close, and frequently marginally better stats in fights, haste has all of its wide utility benefits, which the minicrits only get a fraction of by comparison. my idea is simple: the cane shouldn't have the faster recharge speed so there is more of an opportunity cost to using the buff non-offensively.

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the umbrella will almost always use the buff offensively, but may have to hold onto the buff to time it effectively, while the cane can pop the buff non-offensively and still be able to support a push thanks to its faster recharge. in practice, there are more buffs total on cane

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if you're rolling out using the umbrella, and you're not respawning with a medic, you hold onto the buff until you get to the frontlines. with haste, you can always just buff the player who has the lowest mobility, and will have the buff charged before you approach any danger

clear trail
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I love the speed stick but its more versatile than the umbrella and at the same time just like the latter also helps with killing enemies, sometimes more efficiently depending on the class you buff and their loadout. Removing recharge speed bonus sounds like an easy fix

lost basin
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I mean minicrits allow you to clear a few threshholds and doesn't eat through ammo like haste does