Red Tape Recorder

[tepid wyvern]

I know it's unlikely, but the Red Tape Recorder is a Sapper that has no advantages, only disadvantages, and therefore it would be good to add it to TF2C, since it wouldn't affect gameplay that much.

[tepid wyvern]

Is a Good ideia?

[mossy narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-huh-cat-huh-etr-gif-15332443943609734737

[copper pecan]

no

[stark hornet]

Hot take: the RTR actually has uses over stock
It takes longer to destroy buildings
But it can do lasting damage to them much faster
It's much easier for your team to take down a level 1 than a level 3, and it takes way more time/metal to get them upgraded again than to repair damage

[tepid wyvern]

Even though it's a bad weapon, it might even be good in some respects.

[mossy narwhal]

How about no

[wraith umbra]

I do actually really like the red tape recorder but they're not adding more Live weapons to TF2C

[wraith umbra]

This is exactly my opnion. Sapping a whole net down by one level puts the engi down 600 metal. Two levels? 1200 metal. And then you keep doing that.

It makes it impossible to keep a nest level 3 even with pybros.

[tawdry smelt]

https://tenor.com/view/he-made-a-statement-he-made-a-statement-so-ass-the-dog-left-this-planet-gif-268224778921118459

[oak pine]

I’ve always been kind of bewildered when people act like it’s the worst thing ever. It’s a pretty straightforward trade off. I think the confusion comes from people assuming spy is the building destroying class so being worse at destroying buildings makes him a worse class but it really isn’t

[wraith umbra]

The confusion arises from people forming opinions on weapons they haven't even used.

[oak pine]

The vast majority of people who watch tf2 weapon reviews do not play tf2 yes

[mossy narwhal]

The only good thing about it is instakilling when redeploying. Otherwise the downleveling is just wasting both your and the engineers time which isn't exactly fun nor useful

[wraith umbra]

The confusion arises from people forming opinions on weapons they haven't even used.

[static remnant]

yeah thats how i usually use it. or hell view spy as. a SUPPORT.

to help my team while having my own fun

[wraith umbra]

This person has used the red tape recorder.

[static remnant]

pal i have it on all the time ngl. i like challenging myself with it

also fucking with engineers is funny to watch while having that one cloak that you can stand still with

[wraith umbra]

I spent money on mine and set up a bind for it. "It's rewind time slowpoke!"

I think I have ~2k destructons on it

[static remnant]

i was once in this dustbowl server and i kept messing with this engi while standing in a spot he'd never suspect.

his sentry kept going level 1 each time he left and i kept doing that till the game ended

[wraith umbra]

I use it with the diamondback and YER

[static remnant]

yeah honestly i dont think red tapes a bad weapon, just missued

[wraith umbra]

People don't understand that buildings do get unsapped frequently, and the rtr allows you to still have an impact despite that.

[static remnant]

its mainly for specific scenarious from what i've seen at least

[wraith umbra]

Eh, I use it more than stock.

[static remnant]

also also.... you can instantly destroy a early deployed building

like straight up

same

[wraith umbra]

I find that generally if the engi is dead, I can shoot his sentry down or it'll be destroyed on its own. If the engi is alive, then his buildings are down by a level or two.

[static remnant]

yeah

spy' die ALOT alot.

so at least having the buildings downgrade is good

idk if the dislike for this post is justified ngl

[wraith umbra]

I mean any post suggesting to add a live weapon will see dislikes, but the rtr is a weapon I'd be fine with adding into the game as is if that was feasible

[static remnant]

same

honestly the 2 spy knifes and this would be nice for tf2c

hell we already have sandwiches and flare guns

what'd be so bad if we add a couple more, yeah?

to fill up the weapon stocks and all that

[wraith umbra]

I mean, the goal is to add original weapons

If they actually added any more weapons from Live, it would feel cherry picked like gold rush

[static remnant]

well still it wouldnt hurt to add some pre-existing stuff

[wraith umbra]

It would when they have an intended limit on how many weapons they want per slot

Which is 3 including stock

I’d rather see those spaces taken up with original ideas and concepts rather than ported over pre-existing weapons, wouldn’t you? Feels more interesting that way

[static remnant]

i... dont see a problem having new and pre-existing stuff, its just porting?

i like having alternative choices

[wraith umbra]

I mean, they only have a certain amount of space for weapons

[static remnant]

which is 1?

[wraith umbra]

No, the goal is 3 weapons per slot with most of them being original

[static remnant]

nice

[wraith umbra]

So if they add say, the YER and Big Earner, there’s no space for an original spy knife

[static remnant]

so they cant make extra spaces?

or smth?

[wraith umbra]

They can, but they won’t because they want to avoid weapon bloat. Those sort of constraints sort of force them to ensure their weapons are higher quality and have a more significant impact on gameplay.

[static remnant]

hmm i c i c

[wraith umbra]

Keeping the weapon roster lean but significant is probably one of the core parts of this mods weapon design philosophy imo

Though I imagine part of the reason is so people dont go “well why did you add THIS weapon but not THIS weapon” like they did to gold rush. All the carry overs from Live were done by basically a whole separate dev team.

[static remnant]

i suppose that makes sense

maybe just one weapon from base game? given heavy, sniper and pyro at least gotten 1 pre existing weapon

[wraith umbra]

Bit too late for that I’m afraid

Any Live weapons they were going to add got added back in 2.0

[stark hornet]

Still not 100% off the table tho
I imagine we could get some weapons that are functionally identical to Live ones but look completely different
Like that totally-not-Ubersaw they added

[elfin garden]

interesting to actually see positivity regarding the red tape recorder

[whole timber]

In my experience, the Red tape almost has no impact, even when you say it’s upside out loud, I haven’t really seen it, since you can actually keep the building at lv3 if you’re fast enough.

———
And if the Engi is dead when sapping it, a sapper would have broken it much faster before anyone has the opening to save any part of it. Yes it would be down a level, but it would be at level zero when destroyed

[whole timber]

I feel like that rule was just put up so people stop asking for their weapons to be added… like the bison.

[static remnant]

thats why i love using it even more whenever the engi is dead... making them WATCH as their baby boy slowly breaks and breaks into earlier model as they cant even save them, only watch PAINFULLY, theyd wish it was a normal sapper, but NO, its a psychological device

[whole timber]

Except when I waltz over and save it to a Lv2 because it took too long to break. Your team will be notified of your failure

[wraith umbra]

Okay but all your buildings are level 2 now

Which means you need 600 metal

Which you're not going to get before I sap them again

[whole timber]

Damn, how will I ever get 600 metal now?

Dispenser shaped ammo box:

[wraith umbra]

Why do you think I sap it first?

Doing so removes any metal it has inside of it and drastically lowers its resupply rate

[whole timber]

Metal is metal. Still going back in the box. And there’s a medium nearby.

[wraith umbra]

True. Still, its not sustainable.

[whole timber]

It is, I can wait 5s for more

[wraith umbra]

200/600 and I'm already back sapping your shit

Again, using it gives you a lot of insight into how good it can actually be

[whole timber]

And I’m gonna be shooting you this time knowing you’re about, if I’m alive so Is the nest

[mossy narwhal]

All you do is waste your own time and the engineers time. This results in literally nothing

And if anything it will possibly just get you killed

[copper pecan]

what im hearing is that the RTR is a poorly designed weapon

[wraith umbra]

What I’m hearing is that people dont use it and dont know how good it can be

[stark hornet]

It's also worth remembering the time it'll take to get everything upgraded again
You'll need 600 metal and 24 wrench swings to cover everything
And again, double that the spy drops your buildings from 3 to 1

[wraith umbra]

Yeah. A decent rtr spy means your nest is never above level one, which is comically easy to push into

[copper pecan]

i feel like this just falls into the sydney sleeper trap

[wraith umbra]

The Sydney Sleeper trap is “why not just kill them”

The Red Tape Recorder is “because there’s a decent chance with stock that I dont and all my progress gets immediately set back”

You can kill all the engis and sap everything but it wont do jack shit if a single pyro has the homewrecker or neon

[oak pine]

It’s the same logic as people who think the harvester has no downside or that the vita saw is inherently flawed, people seem to treat balance as if everyone operates as perfect efficiency 100% of the time

[whole timber]

A gun that still shoots is better then no gun starting from the ground up

[wraith umbra]

Maybe. But in lieu of the latter, I'd much rather have the gun that deals low damage and has low health.

[whole timber]

I mean, the harvester is a paradox in balance, there’s no inherent downside or risk to use it, only a punishment for failing. Nothing in your active life is different compare to the Chekov’s or Anchor that have active risks attached

[quasi summit]

i mean to be fair enemies getting extinguished when you die does sacrifice some potential kills

though i do agree that its downside is pretty light compared to the chekov's or the anchor

though i also don't feel like any additional downsides should be quite as devastating as those two weapons?

i liked the suggestion where enemies can see the pyro's health if they're using the harvester

it plays into the existing downside more

[whole timber]

Yes, but that’s a lower end problem, since the Afterburn remains if you actually escape with survival skills. But most pyro players (newer ones) have the survival instinct of a koala.

The real problem lies with GOOD pyros like Sam or LOPEN who refuse to die as they keep snowballing off each crit

[quasi summit]

i think a potentially nice nerf could be to make it so you don't inexplicably continue to build harvest and heal when the enemy dies

does it still do that?

i always found that aspect really weird

it just continues to do its thing even when an enemy isn't actually taking afterburn damage anymore

i think it happens (happened?) in other situations too

[oak pine]

It’s also worth noting that the harvester completely changes how you play and encourages single target ambushes rather than pushing and mass ambushes

I sometimes don’t run the harvester because straight up I don’t want to play like that

[copper pecan]

and same with the RTR? maybe if the deconstruct was faster but i just dont see a use for it as anything better than a worse sapper except in like, three scenarios

[whole timber]

A mass ambush however, increases its effectiveness in building HEAT… because of course it does.

[wraith umbra]

Its better than the sapper if the sapper doesn't kill the building.

[copper pecan]

if it manages to delevel otherwise its a few half seconds of extra stun which doesn't matter

[wraith umbra]

I'm gonna be real, it delevels so fast you're basically guaranteed at least one lol