"New phlog" - "Plasma-tic"

[dapper plank]

I made rebalanced Phlogistinator, what would you say?

[cloud rose]

What's the point of the 3 seconds of uber?

Is it to allow the pyro to disengage?

[dapper plank]

Like after Mmmph pyro got's 3 sec of standart uber

To not die instantly

or just big heal

Just after Mmmmph in 90% situations player just dies, without any ability to escape

[sick jewel]

Yea sure, add this

[cloud rose]

Maybe a speed boost would be better?

[dapper plank]

Maybe, but then IN "Mmmmph" we have +5% speed, and after Mmmmph +30% for 3 seconds

[cloud rose]

What if after deactivating instead of ubercharge it gave you something like the dead ringer effect but without invis?

[dapper plank]

Hmm

Maybe

[cloud rose]

In my head there's a situation where pyro pops phlog, overextends like crazy, but then the effect ends with like 6 health on the pyro and suddenly they get 3 seconds to basically run to a health pack or something

[dapper plank]

We can mix it

Dead ringer + speed boost

[cloud rose]

dead ringer already has a speed boost

[dapper plank]

Oh yeah

[cloud rose]

So dead ringer without the fake body and without the invis

[eager ravine]

holy server tag bro

[dapper plank]

Good idea dude

[cloud rose]

no invis specifically

speed and some damage resistance is fine but the pyro should not be able to cloak

[dapper plank]

Oh

Ok

[pulsar prism]

lol smoke screen, but yeah no invis for pyro

[dapper plank]

So, like this?

[cloud rose]

You can just say gain 3 seconds of damage resistance and speed boost

"Gain 3 seconds of damage resistance and speed after 'Mmmmph' ends."

[dapper plank]

Ok

[cloud rose]

yeah something like that, maybe some messing with the exact numbers would be in order but I feel like that's better than getting 3 seconds of uber
although maybe since the effect is meant to be for disengaging something like 5 seconds might be better? I'm not sure

[dapper plank]

I think 5 sec is to op

Cuz pyro will already have -50% from any damage + speed boost

3 seconds is "Golden middle"

[cloud rose]

fair

[undone garnet]

we don't need phlog it's a mistake of nature

[stuck oak]

This doesnt really do anything new or interesting for pyro

[dapper plank]

I made "fixed" version. Its nerfed

[dapper plank]

It will revive pyro-shark gameplay by damage in water

[undone garnet]

and we needed that because...???

the huge amouts of water we totally have or what

[dapper plank]

Actually yes.

Most popular maps have lot of water

[stuck oak]

Too situational

Most maps dont have much water in combat areas

[pallid fractal]

^

Which is somewhat unfortunate

I wish more maps had deep water integrated into the play spaces

[stuck oak]

Yeah, the only ones I can think of are freight and well

[pallid fractal]

Even then, those aren't exactly places people fight all that often

[stuck oak]

Oh, and 2fort

[stuck oak]

Yeah, moreso flank routes

[pallid fractal]

Water slows down inertia inflicted on you by explosions, doesn't it?

Even if there was a map that incorporated waist-ish deep water into a combat area, I feel like people would actively avoid it just to be able to dodge follow-up explosives easier

[dapper plank]

2fort
Hydro
Gorge
Abbey
Apple jack
Aquarius
Atoll
Atom smash
Badlands
Banana bay
Bigrock

All this maps have lot of water

[stuck oak]

Hydro, gorge, and badlands do not have deep water. The other maps are not in the game.

2fort is the only one out of all of those maps that does have deep water which prevents the pyro from using his flamethrower

[dapper plank]

hmm

[undone garnet]

💀

[dapper plank]

then maybe add some fire-distance, or get boost from shotgun attacks on enemy who in fire

+dev's can add more maps in future with water

[pallid fractal]

A weapon's utility shouldn't be so dependent on the map

[dapper plank]

Its not dependent on the map

Its only ONE of ability's

Other can work in any situations

Like Thermal Thruster

[pallid fractal]

That still drastically affects its usefulness, depending on whether or not the map has a specific feature

Yeah that kinda sucks

[dapper plank]

Do you remember when you last time "Extinguish teammates at the beginning of your launch."?

I remember. For the pyroland contract

Ability is useless

But you still can fly

And some ppl still use this

[pallid fractal]

That doesn't have anything to do with the map though

[dapper plank]

K then Gas Passer

[pallid fractal]

That just sucks outright

[dapper plank]

Useless on every map

Exept MvM

[pallid fractal]

And that's bad

Why do we want to bring that back?

[dapper plank]

Back Scatter

Sucks on open maps, but sometimes can help you

Crit-a-Cola same

[pallid fractal]

You can flank on any map

But not every map has Water

[dapper plank]

Yeah, cuz ability can doesen't work everytime

Again - like some weapon ability's it can be useless in some situations.

But also sometimes can save your life

And there are plenty more examples

So it not fully useless

and btw you can use gas passer with neon-stick on pyro

It will give you critical hits, cuz player's wet

[undone garnet]

Why do you want phlog in the first place

[frozen cloud]

Yeah phlog isn’t even a good weapon

It’s honestly extremely mediocre, it’s only good because of the vast array of annoying long range fire starters pyro has in live. Try playing phlog with the shotgun and you’ll realize how weak it is

That being said aesthetically speaking a plasma flame thrower might artistically be a really good direction for pyro primaries, it works really well with the spy-fy theme of TF2

[undone garnet]

And uber

We really don't need phlog uber gf's to be a thing in tf2c too

[frozen cloud]

True!

[cloud rose]

yeah honestly I don't think this would be that great of an idea, I just think it'd be interesting to see what'd happen if you tried to translate weapon ideas from tf2 into tf2c

[dapper plank]

Can you give any arguments why its bad?

[pallid fractal]

No airblast

Projectile classes absolutely shit on you

[dapper plank]

I played with a shotgun and a phlog. It's still a pretty good weapon. Especially against spawn camping or huge crowds of people.

[dapper plank]

Then Direct hit bad cuz rocket smaller than standart.

Same logic

[pallid fractal]

Literally how

[dapper plank]

You say's what "Phlog bad" only cuz it have no airblast.
This is no logical argument. Cuz then ANY weapon is sucks, cuz have minuses

Phlog have no airblast to balance crits

[pallid fractal]

Lacking airblast is a major downside

[dapper plank]

Crits + airblast is too op

[pallid fractal]

No shit

[dapper plank]

Then lets make 2x rocket size for direct hit. And let name it "Balanced weapon"

And anyone who will have own oponion will be gibus

https://tenor.com/qrWbPfExDJY.gif

[pallid fractal]

Are... Are you fucking 12 or something?

[dapper plank]

Nice "ad hominem"

Give some arguments

[pallid fractal]

I did

[pallid fractal]

.

[dapper plank]

Like any other class 🥀

[pallid fractal]

Yeah, but Pyro needs time to get in close with his enemies to deal damage

[dapper plank]

Yeah, that it

But you forget one thing

That is main idea of phlog. Closed room + many ppl

[pallid fractal]

Once you have Mmmph, maybe

[dapper plank]

Many weapons can be very situational

Phlog is one of them

And I can name lot of this weapon type.

[pallid fractal]

Airblast is a really useful part of Pyro's toolset, and not something you really want to get rid of

[dapper plank]

Bow, crit-cola, classic, brass beast, GRU

[dapper plank]

Then why still many ppl use that, and still have high K/D?

If weapon "Useless", it CAN'T have high K/D or popularity

[pallid fractal]

I never said it was useless

[dapper plank]

That still can't make phlog bat

[dapper plank]

bruh

bad*

It situational weapon. Not bad

[pallid fractal]

You're giving up practiaclly all your support potential of the base class in favour of being a pure damage dealer

[dapper plank]

Or then 80% swords demo is bad, Ullapool Caber is bad, Rescue Ranger bad, Gunslinger bad

[pallid fractal]

Caber is bad lmfao

[dapper plank]

Arguments?

[naive furnace]

not just support, no airblast means soldiers and demos obliterate you if you don't surprise them

[pallid fractal]

I mentioned that too

[pallid fractal]

Double deploy time, 80% standard swing speed, 15% less damage

[dapper plank]

If the Soldier or Demo is far away, you can dodge.
If they are close, they will either die from their own rockets or die from fire. Or you can try to run away in both cases.

[naive furnace]

what about mid range

[dapper plank]

Or then idk why everytime I survives

[dapper plank]

Same. Or they miss, or you can escape

[naive furnace]

pretty hard to miss in mid range as a soldier

[pallid fractal]

In return you get a weapon that is equally, if not more likely to kill you instead of your opponent

[dapper plank]

If you good player

now ~60% tf2 is unskill players or newbies

[naive furnace]

it's incredibly easy 😭

the rocket launcher has giant splash

[dapper plank]

Ye, but still some ppl cant do it

[naive furnace]

some not most

[dapper plank]

On stock

[naive furnace]

if you can't hit someone with the rocket launcher in mid range you just suck unfortunately

[dapper plank]

• splash have ~30 damage

To small to kill someone if they have full hp

or half

That can kill someone only on very low HP

You still can run/ask teamate

[pallid fractal]

Only one of Soldier's unlocks has less splash radius

[naive furnace]

It's minimum damage is still like 50

[pallid fractal]

Statistically, you're gonna be facing off against the default

[naive furnace]

MINIMUM

and don't even think about playing the same game as an RPG soldier

[dapper plank]

Lower

• that was close splash

[naive furnace]

eh off by 2

[naive furnace]

can you show me a video

I wanna see how far you're shooting them from

[pallid fractal]

Bro that is not "mid range"

[pallid fractal]

Stop cropping that shit

[pallid fractal]

Rockets have damage falloff

Show us how far away you where when you actually shot them

[dapper plank]

k

[naive furnace]

yeah that's still pretty threatening

And that's the very far edges of the blast radius

[dapper plank]

hmm

"very far"

Just remember what airblast is one of most OP class ability's in right hands

[naive furnace]

what?

why are you advocating for airblast now

😭

Your weapon removes it

[dapper plank]

Yes so

[naive furnace]

so why are you mentioning it

[dapper plank]

Cuz airblast is so OP. Crits + blast = unbalanced OP weapon.
Cirts without bast = ~normal weapon.
My verison = normal/~good weapon cuz more balanced main crit ability cuz it deal so many damage by one charge

[naive furnace]

have you considered that Crits without airblast isn't a normal weapon either?

[dapper plank]

Rocket blast radius is big, but that doesen't mean what you can't dodge it but just jump in any side

[naive furnace]

You can't in mid range

The rockets travel faster than you

[dapper plank]

Can

[dapper plank]

nah

[naive furnace]

yeah

and this is all if the soldier has abysmal aim

[dapper plank]

Then why in 90% I can escape or get only ~40 damage?

[eager ravine]

wow

add it

[naive furnace]

Congratulations the soldier couldn't aim

[dapper plank]

Maybe you just have no normal movement?

Try to use bhop idk

low boost of speed

[naive furnace]

the soldier just sucked lol

You can't out run a rocket against soldiers who can aim

It's quite literally faster than you

[dapper plank]

It's very situational

Sometimes gibus will destroy you like 10K+ hours player

Sometimes 10K+ player with austr & unusuall will die from scout fish

[frozen cloud]

I’d seriously wager that without gimmicks like uber, phlog cancelling or rapid build up w/ scorch shot most kills you’d get while crit boosted as phlog you’d already get mw1ing due to how powerful pyro already is close range and the fact that his major weakness is closing the distance on aware enemies

Unironically

I don’t think the phlog is a bad weapon, just a mediocre one

It ultimately when played “correctly” is just a side grade to stock

It’s about as equivalent in effectiveness to me as the backburner (a weapon I adore)

I think the phlog is MASSIVELY overhated for the record

[sick jewel]

Apparently it was strong enough that a medic refused to uber with me when I had it ready.

And I mean verbally confirmed it felt cheap to do it 😠

I will never forget that bastard even if I forget his name

[pallid fractal]

Honestly I'd say in most situations the Backburner is superior to the Phlog

[near timber]

https://youtu.be/dOkHva-xgNk?t=27

[dapper plank]

🥀

[dapper plank]

Your right, but that is the main idea of weapon. You have no airblast, you need to be very close, you can instantly die if enemy know how to counter ur Mmmmph. BUT - it still good weapon. Or then weapons like Flying Guillotine sucks only cuz they work in correct situations

[undone garnet]

Even if scorch wasn't a thing.
It's still blatantly unfair with a pocket gf

And kinda braindead

[dapper plank]

uh, pocket gf?