Plz add The Force Nature

[plain vale]

Scout needs more guns

[fierce island]

they arent adding more weapons from tf2

[plain vale]

it's bad:( I loved this weapon

[golden leaf]

I mean I agree it’s a great weapon but unfortunately TF2C devs have made the decision and it seems final

Weapons like the twin barrel prove they’re never adding it

[plain vale]

Its bad'(

But they added an alternative to Pyro.

[golden leaf]

Yeah that’s what I mean, that’s probably why they’re not adding it

[plain vale]

Was there any information about Demoknight?

[craggy harbor]

Demoknight is deemed unfitting

[plain vale]

[craggy harbor]

Ideal demoman weapons are explosive related, turning him into a knight goes against the current design philosphy

[plain vale]

who needs your design if you can have fun

[golden leaf]

I’d argue the original demoknight kind of makes sense if you think about it as a way to focus on piping

Makes sense for demoman*

[plain vale]

I like the idea of the shield that you can escape at any moment.

[golden leaf]

That’s the worst part of demoknight doe

[plain vale]

[golden leaf]

I think demoknight kind of makes sense when you see it as a means to justify demoman being tankier and more mobile

I don’t think valve really envisioned people liking the melee mechanics so much they wouldn’t even care about aiming pipes

[plain vale]

Um his fortress is offset by his small radius

[golden leaf]

The focus for demoknight was always supposed to be on pipes, there’s a reason hybrid knight is so powerful in an actual competent players hands because that’s what the “subclass” was built around

What

[plain vale]

okay

It doesn't matter

[finite idol]

The only thing unfitting were the boots. The shield compliments his playstyle well

[soft mulch]

i dont want to be mean but this is a rly funny message sorry

[plain vale]

I play games for fun, they take away something funny, I get upset'(

[golden leaf]

Based

Lowkey I’ve come to loathe the “game design this, class design that”

This is the true philosophy, fun first

[fierce island]

The thing is, having a consistently fun game kinda requires there to be some adherence to an overall design

[plain vale]

do you like everything in one style and color, I think it's boring, but if a person flies into you like a clown, then I think it's more fun than flying or jumping

[fierce island]

That's one hell of a strawman

imo the stricter adherence to design philosophy is what makes TF2C more fun and more interesting than Live

For every shield we miss out on because of that, we also get to miss out on weapons like the scorch shot, dead ringer, jarate, razorback, and wrangler that make the game more frustrating to play.

[true mural]

whats so wrong about tb

[finite idol]

also this is not what this channel is for

[true mural]

a better force a nature is in the knockout reloaded server(boston barrel breaker)

[fierce island]

Not only that, but we also get cool, new weapons that explore classes and reinvent weapons in new and different ways while still adhering to those philosophies, like the chekhovs punch, l'escampette, twin barrel, harvester, and jump pads

[golden leaf]

I personally really hate the TB and think it represents the worst parts of TF2C weapon philosophy but my point was just that the TB is proof the devs are never adding the force of nature to TF2C

[fierce island]

Imo we shouldn't be asking for the shields to be added, we should be asking for weapons that change up classes in similar ways without actually changing the class that significantly

[fierce island]

Can't entirely disagree about the tb lol, that shit sucks to fight almost as much as mines

[true mural]

it gave pyro more movement at the cost of less damaging secondary, which is completely fair trade

not like AAC or cyclops

idk whats wrong with mines, if you see a demo firing them at you, run towards him

[fierce island]

except it also gives pyro a second way of controlling other players movement, which he doesn't need, and it does it in what i think is a frustrating way

[fierce island]

he's probably shooting them from halfway across the map

[true mural]

you can still strafe

[true mural]

havent seen that yet

[fierce island]

then you havent been playing the game

[true mural]

yea sure

[fierce island]

believe it or not

that doesnt make it less frustrating

here's a wild thought

what if pyro only had one way of dealing knockback to enemies

and not two

[true mural]

and why not

he cant airblast at that moment, hes vulnerable

reminder that he still dies in two well aimed shots

[fierce island]

yes, that should be the downside

that he can't control your movement because he has his secondary out

which he is using as a mobility tool

and a damage tool

[true mural]

and most of the time pyros run harvester, so you have to fight him to win(actually fun to play against him)

[fierce island]

and a movement control tool

i just think it sucks to fight lol

[true mural]

havent seen pyros use it effectively yet

[fierce island]

i dont know if the pyros i've seen with it are using it effectively or not and i dont really care because i dont like fighting it

it does not feel fun or fair

[true mural]

find a way how to counter them

scout does it for me

[soft mulch]

fair way to think but u gotta understand theres also beauty in keeping things consistent and with a coherent style like tf2c tries to do

[fierce island]

okay but i shouldn't have to swap classes every time a pyro decides to run the tb

thats part of what makes it feel bad to fight

[true mural]

its not a tb issue

[fierce island]

yes it is

i think that if it didnt deal knockback to enemy players it would be a lot more fun to fight

[true mural]

its still a pyro with a "scout" movement

thats not that bad

[fierce island]

yes it is

[soft mulch]

and sometimes the fun is working around not having the things ur used to, like getting used to mostly just having stock weapons

[plain vale]

Um, I've figured it out right now, but how does the weapon on the anchor soldier relate to his style?

[soft mulch]

the navy

[plain vale]

Then why can't a demon walk around with a shield if he's like royalty

at this rate, it was possible to simply make a shield that exploded upon contact with the enemy, and everything was possible in fact.

[native anchor]

Is he still royalty in TF2C?

[plain vale]

What do you mean? in the TF2 plot

[soft mulch]

the tf2 comics are not a part of tf2c

[native anchor]

I was talking about TF2C's lore

Since its lore is different

[native anchor]

Yea, I'm pretty sure him being royalty has been retconned

[fierce island]

TF2Cs lore is the meet the team vids except for pyros and also stuff that has yet to be revealed

[plain vale]

I didn't know about it.

[sand musk]

i like to imagine meet the pyro video as canon and the pyroland section as just a visual gag or "creatively filling in the blanks"

[golden leaf]

Which he already had in live, the detonator, which requires a more fair cost (both per use and opportunity) and is also just more creative and fun in general. The crazy strats the detonator is capable of could never be achieved by the twin barrel

[native anchor]

I always liked the idea that pyroland was pyro disassociating from the horrible things he is doing to people

[fierce island]

I think the tb could use some tweaking

[native anchor]

Instead of him just being a child and seeing things in a cute way

[fierce island]

I'd rather it be better at mobility in exchange for not dealing knockback to enemies

[true mural]

which is the 2nd most annoying pyro secondary

i love dying to 30seconds of afterburn

[golden leaf]

Genuinely you just deserve that, actually getting hit by a detonator pyro around a corner like that is just being outplayed

In any case that’s not even the point, just the mechanic itself

Pyro didn’t need a dumbed down movement tool, especially when Pyro already had one

[true mural]

Cyclops does it the same way and its almost as fun to play against as detonator

[golden leaf]

This is what I don’t like about TF2Cs weapon design philosophy sometimes, it’s the pointless “fixing” of already fine mechanics and then gesturing as some vague “design philosophy” as their reasoning

[true mural]

What is the dumbed down stuff on tb

[golden leaf]

Everything?

[fierce island]

Tbh i think the cyclops is fine

its just that it combos with dynamite

which sucks

[golden leaf]

Yeah I have zero problems with the cyclops even the dynamite combo I don’t mind given the context that the demo is missing his stickies

[true mural]

Sometimes you cant dodge cyclops

[fierce island]

yeah, but that doesn't make it inherently unfun for me

[fierce island]

eh, i just dont like getting one shot lol

it also thrashes engis building quickly

[low rampart]

The harvester is Worse

[craggy harbor]

Well gameplay style, the only way to properly use the weapon is by using one of soldier's main mechanics, which is rocket jumping. The better you are at it, the better the results.
Visually speaking, it's an AOE damage type, so the weapon has to be something heavy but also something common enough that it isn't weird for soldier to have (stolen) it. It being an admiralty anchor, thus relating to the navy, is just a small plus.

[plain vale]

and why can't a shield be considered a way to escape from an opponent

[craggy harbor]

I don't really understand the question

[fierce island]

did you even read what they said

the shield doesnt do anything to expand on existing gameplay

it just makes a new thing

unlike the anchor, which expands on soldiers rocket jumping

whether or not the shield is a way to escape enemies doesnt matter

[plain vale]

they can just make an analog like when using the ability, an explosion will appear under you and you will get acceleration.

[soft mulch]

still the devs dont wanna add a demoknight equivalent cuz its just not what they wanna have in the mod

custom weapon servers can have the wacky subclasses

[finite idol]

It does tho the shield on it's own compliments the pipe gameplay really well

The problem is the boots

They removed the demo part from demo

The boots are the terrible evil not the shield

[soft mulch]

i mean the shield did come with the eyelander so u were still encouraged to go for melee kills, but yeah it wasnt as egregious as when the boots came out

[finite idol]

It trades your second primary for an escape and self defense tool

You could easily make a shield equivilent without making demoknight

[soft mulch]

i can see that yeah, but i imagine its not something the devs want to officially add

[finite idol]

And thatd a shame

But i have an idea

[low rampart]

Did about the Sheild, I just want a sword. Not from live, just a Sword. He’s Scottish.

[finite idol]

Swords are for babies. Men weaponise their alcoholism

[low rampart]

Silence Drunk. I wish to battle for glory & for the freedom of Kilts!!

BAGPIPES INTENSIFIES!

[charred lotus]

Demo can't area denial without stickies xdd

[finite idol]

Get good at pipes

Demo doesn't need to stickyspam

[charred lotus]

Pipes are better at killing but not at area denial tho

Demo stops being demo and becomes more like soldier when using shield

[golden leaf]

This entire conversation only exists because the booties exist and completely destroy all of the careful intentionality that went into OG demoknight

The point of the sword was to make pipes stronger, that’s why the eyelander is a head collecting weapon that increases health and movement speed instead of increasing sword damage or swing speed.

In a way the sword fills a similar role to the stickies in picking off weak, slippery enemies like scouts and spies

I would genuinely argue that hybrid knight is a phenomenal piece of game design that can really make you appreciate pipes and how versatile they can be

[soft mulch]

i mean after hearing what vror said i think i do agree that the shield also removed demo's main role of area denial

i mean honestly it does feel like a knockout custom weapon subclass

[finite idol]

I mean nobody said the shield has to bw in secondary slot

[low rampart]

Dont listen to him, he’s a Leaf Lover.

[fierce island]

That doesn't really fix the issue

[fierce island]

Not really?

The technically makes you focus on pipes but only because that becomes your main damage source

I'm not talking about the booties, I'm not talking about the swords, I'm talking about the charge

In what way does the idea of a charge replacing your stickies work with the design of a mid range area denial class?

[golden leaf]

Why are we assuming “area denial” is the purpose of the demoman

That’s not really what the developer commentaries state

People have this weird habit of saying a class is actually about x because that’s how they play it

Pyro is amazing at crowd control but that’s not “the purpose of his class” it’s just what he’s good at

The Demoman is the most versatile combat class, capable of rapidly switching from strong offensive pushes to defensive area denial. He has the only indirect fire capability in the game, allowing him to take out sentryguns around the corner, and his sticky bombs give him a grenade jumping ability similar to that of the Soldier's rocket jumps. His sticky bombs can also prevent enemies from moving through doorways, cover a retreat, and defend control points even when the Demoman is somewhere else.

[golden leaf]

Because the charge keeps the demomans core design: to be a versatile offense/defense class

[fierce island]

It's at the very least the purpose of his secondary slot.

and I don't see how the shields do anything to make him more versatile as a class since they're not really a defensive tool, or at the very least nobody uses them that way because its offensive potential is so high

[soft mulch]

if u only have pipes u just become a slightly different soldier

i think its pretty clear that the class is built around the sticky launcher

[fierce island]

Yeah. Demo is very clearly balanced around poor mobility in exchange for his high damage and versatility, being limited to sticky jumping if he wants to get somewhere fast. Sacrificing that versatility in exchange for mobility creates an experience that doesn't really feel like demo. That's why people equate just putting the shield on as playing a subclass and gave it a whole different name.

Some people have even said that it should just be its own class

There are weapons in Live that would do well, maybe even better, in TF2C. Shields aren't one of them.

[golden leaf]

How is it not a defensive tool

It blocks damage and allows a quick getaway

It is the definition of a defensive tool

[low rampart]

This says more of a problem of the stickies then the class

[fierce island]

Defensive in terms of demos role, not defensive as in "well it keeps me alive"

It does not enable him to defend the objective or an area anywhere as much as the sticky launcher