What weapons should never enter classic

[young marlin]

Some things can be fixed. But others are fundamentally broken.

I'll start us of with the black box. It allows players to jump behind enemy lines and ambush light classes nonstop. The downside only occurs if the first 270 damage isn't enough. Its fun to do, but it ruins the game.

[shell oar]

scorch shot

[sharp pelican]

Mad Milk, Phlog, Scorch Shot, Powerjack, Natascha, Dalokah's Bar, Frontier Justice, Short Circuit, Crusader's Crossbow, Vaccinator, Jarate, Bushwhacka, Conniver's Kunai, Diamondback. Some are cool and some are the meta, but in their current states they shouldn't be added.

Oh, and the Wrangler

[young marlin]

Dalokohs bar might work with some balancing. But yeah the rest are unredeemable.

[sharp pelican]

If dalokohs gave the same or more health but in overheal, then you would be able to tell if a heavy is more than 300 hp. Currently, there is no indication that the bar is affecting a heavy

[young marlin]

What i hate is that heavy becomes diabetic. He HAS to eat chocolate every 30 seconds or lose the effect.

[balmy otter]

It'd be easier to name what does fit

[cerulean lynx]

weapons that slow down gameplay or dont really add anything interesting/fun. this would include weapons that limit movement like the natacha, the FANs stun mechanic which stops people midair or stuff like the vaccinator which arent fun to play agaisnt because they negate your damage

theres just too much to count tbh

1001 has a point

[sharp atlas]

One of the things I hate is melee weapons that give a utility without any meaningful downside to warrant picking stock over them, since I wanna see the stock melee weapons aswell be used. Like the escape plan or disciplinary action or the gru or fists of steel. If you can get to pick when the downsides take place then it's automatically better than stock I feel

[young marlin]

Oh I made a list. Loose Cannon, Eureka Effect, Eternal Reward, Dragons Fury, Pomson 6000, Beggars Bazooka.

[sharp pelican]

The cannon, dragons fury and beggars especially are no-brainer picks for tf2c imo

[young marlin]

Did you notice the speed creep. Half the classes get speed boosting and it always becomes meta.

[sharp atlas]

Yeah I know, like if you want the class to be faster or something that bad then balance the class entirely instead of giving them unlocks like the crossbow which just objectively make the class perform better. Weapon variety should be there for gameplay variety not for balancing a whole class to be stronger or faster or etc.

[cerulean lynx]

i think the airstrike, beggars bazooka, shortstop, (maybe the market gardner) dragons fury, your eternal reward, or the hitsman heatmaker

some of these design wise should be changed though such as the hitsman and yer to look more classic but but overall these are my prefered picks

[young marlin]

I feel like the reason valve made more open maps is because they made everybody faster.

[cerulean lynx]

sightlines :(

[sharp pelican]

i know soldier mains would sell their souls for the market gardener

[balmy otter]

gunboats and market gardener...

[cerulean lynx]

i think the anchor is fine but maybe the market gardner woulnt hurt

[sharp atlas]

And no idc how much people say the medic needs the crossbow to be fun or whatever, NO weapon slot should have any weapon that trump's over everything else, especially if it trumps over stock, but it should never be happening to begin with I feel like

[cerulean lynx]

the overdose would be great to have on medic

i love using it

[balmy otter]

personally I like the brass beast since it encourages shotgun heavy more

[sharp pelican]

same

[young marlin]

I found the shotgun pairs better with aagun than minigun.

[sharp atlas]

I think having both the anchor and market gardener would add bloat and redundancy which I don't like

[sharp pelican]

i suppose that's true

[cerulean lynx]

cant argue with that

thats fair

[young marlin]

Would the shotstop and nail gun bloat?

[cerulean lynx]

i dont think so

the shortstop is its own thing

[sharp pelican]

both are unique enough

[cerulean lynx]

what do you guys think of the airstrike in tf2? would it work?

[balmy otter]

Shortstop as a secondary

[sharp pelican]

yikes

[young marlin]

I looked at soldiers rockets and realised that the direct hit, airstrike, beggars and liberty launcher could all be made into a single weapon. It has less splash, less damage, more firing speed, faster projectiles and more clip size.

[sharp atlas]

I mean I haven't used the shortstop much but I feel like they both are meant to be scout weapons with a longer range and stuff so I think they overlap too much, idk I always prefer having little content over content that bloats the game.

[balmy otter]

A little too much

[young marlin]

I wonder about giving the shotstop to another shotgun class like heavy or soldier

They already sold the force of nature

[sharp atlas]

Also kinda random but I don't like the ambassador neither. It's simply a weapon that rewards better aiming and skill without making there be some constant downside to warrant picking the revolver over it. Basically if you are good at aiming it's gonna always be a better option to pick which I don't like, while with something like the direct hit you have the smaller blast radius which is a meaningful downside regardless of your skill since it hurts crowd control that may make you want to pick stock over it even if you are good at aiming with it.

[young marlin]

I am aware that slower firing rates and careful aim effects the use case. But every time I choose a revolver, I remind myself I'm not good enough to land headshots.

Which really hurts my sniper confidence

[cerulean lynx]

i think we should graph what weapons we dont want and reasons why we dont want them

[young marlin]

So a survey on how "unclassic" a weapon feels?

[cerulean lynx]

i guess, but that survey didnt tell us exactly what "classic" meant either

how would be define it?

[sharp pelican]

i guess it just means weapons that are unique enough to fit with tf2c's weapon selection

[young marlin]

Option 1: how much do you reminisce about it. Option 2: how well does it fit. Option 3: how much do you want it. Option 4: does it meet the complexity standards of eminoma's other work

[cerulean lynx]

yeah, think a poll like that would be a lot more effective at pinpointing what weapons to add/dont add

[shell oar]

imo the definition of a "classic" weapon would be that it's simple and easy to understand, and it meaningfully changes how you play the class

[cerulean lynx]

so the beggars qualifies

[young marlin]

Yay or Nay: Righteous Bison?

[cerulean lynx]

No.

[young marlin]

why?

[cerulean lynx]

nay

[sharp pelican]

i feel like the futuristic weapons like the bison and pomson should be exclusively for engineer and maybe medic

even then, medic with the bison would probably not be smart

[cerulean lynx]

with balance changes maybe, but i think it would need an artistic redesgin

[young marlin]

From a balance point of view, I think the bison is fine. But I have never met a person who actually likes it.

Good or Bad: Fists of Steel

[sharp pelican]

i feel like it has the same issue as the powerjack where there's only a downside when you pull it out, which therefore makes stock almost useless

[young marlin]

Is there room in tf2c for a heavy melee that gives damage resistance?

[sharp atlas]

I mean I can't see what would be interesting and fun about giving him a damage resistance

[sharp atlas]

Yeah that's why I couldn't vote on it, like ik they explicitly said how they aren't looking for how good or bad we think a weapon is but I still associate alot of how the weapon feels to how it plays out. Maybe if they said they only were asking about how a weapon looks that'd be more clear to me

Like the sandman looks good imo but it's mechanic is something that is a nightmare to play with. So idk if it's count as classic or no

[cerulean lynx]

maybe we should ask them for permission to make a survey that would be more effective?

[young marlin]

Or at least reveal the results.

[odd swift]

• Phlog, Scorch Shot, Powerjack, Homewrecker,
• all Demoknight weapons, Loose Cannon,
• Natascha, Holiday Punch, G.R.U,
• Frontier Justice, Wrangler,
• Crossbow, Vaccinator,
• Bazaar Bargain, Razorback and other Sniper backpacks
• Ambassador, Diamondback, Kunai, Dead Ringer, Cloak and Dagger

[sharp pelican]

I agree with everything but the loose cannon

the cannon is kinda like if the cyclops required skill

[odd swift]

I like the concept of Dragon's Fury, but it's way too strong in vanilla TF2.
It shouldn't be able to two-shot most of the classes.

[sharp pelican]

the fact you have actually aim the projectile balances the damage out

[young marlin]

The worst mechanic on dragons fury (which should never be put on another weapon again) is the +firing speed on hit. How are you supposed to aim when the attack interval keeps changing.

[umbral light]

yeah I really like it just because it's something you have to aim, i'd love a version of it that doesn't mess with airblast and firing speed

and whatever balance changes necessary idk

[balmy otter]

You're exaggerating it 😭

this is only a problem if you hold down m1

[gleaming urchin]

i think the majority of live weapons already wouldnt fit tf2c, not because things like the overdose or market gardener are unbalanced or would break the game, but rather because a lot of live's unlocks are just stat swaps that dont significantly change how the class plays unlike the alternate weapons in tf2c

aside from the few live weapons that are already in tf2c i cant think of many that would fit well into the mod

plus i think itd be odd to have straight up live tf2 weapons added to the mod if they arent a very important part of the class, to me it would be weird having something like the loose cannon in the mod instead of a more original weapon with a similar concept to it

[cosmic moat]

i can safely say a lot of them really wouldnt fit, mostly cause tf2 doesnt justify how many weapons it does have with them being proper decisions and choices that affect how you play

[craggy minnow]

harvester needs nerf

also i would personally argue that jarate would fit well in tf2c but that could just be me

[gleaming urchin]

thematically maybe but gameplay-wise hell no imo

[sharp atlas]

yes the harvester does need a nerf, I very much agree with that

[quick plank]

the short circuit the wrangler the jarate demoknight as a whole the natascha the southern hospitality the pomsom 6000 and every single sniper shield

[cerulean lynx]

bit off topic but do you guys think the beggars or the airstrike should be in tf2c?

[young marlin]

I would like a rapid fire rocket. But i don't think either of them are good enough.

[quick plank]

oh hear forgot the dead ringer too

rest in piss it will not be missed

[cerulean lynx]

le escapette is soo much better

and less annoying

[quick plank]

it's so much w gunspy you just get a "go fast asf" button and 90% of the time you will get to their backlines in seconds

[cerulean lynx]

what changes would make the airstrike classic enough

[young marlin]

For starters, get rid of the heads mechanic. It just incentivises players to hide in a corner rather than push objective.

Now some people may disagree, but I don't want it to be dependent on rocket jumping. The faster firing could either be default or on mouse 2. (and any rebalancing this entails)

[gleaming urchin]

i can see the beggars fitting in but the airstrike not really

airstrike plays too similar to stock i think

[gentle pewter]

I made this a while back, This was mostly made off the vibes that the weapon gave off rather than balancing but I think its pretty accurate

Things like the bonk or jarate shouldnt be added (Nor the concept that they provide) but they do follow tf2cs golden rule of providing something new to that specific slot

[cerulean lynx]

i hope you guys dont mind coming into vc and talking about tf2 weapon classicness?

[balmy otter]

Razorback over the Banners

[gentle pewter]

i put balance and everything else aside

just how classic they feel

and the banners dont feel that classic imo

[balmy otter]

do you mean the look or like the concept

[gentle pewter]

both

the banners play better than the razorback but they dont look/feel like a classic weapon to me fsr

[cerulean lynx]

could you guys join vc so we can do a tierlist

[gentle pewter]

im busy :(

[cerulean lynx]

damn

[whole glade]

Dead ringer, I know its been said at least once

also the Razor back, just cause its useless

[young marlin]

razor back doesnt make the sniper play differently but forces every spy to learn it

[quick plank]

which is a horrible idea i don't know why valve thought sniper of all people needed such a deliberate spy counter

[wet knot]

Is this thread asking about specfic weapons or specific ideas of weapons that are similar to their live counterpart

Because if it's asking about specific weapon the answer is all of them except gunslinger

[thorny mountain]

Loose cannon in B, my favorites cooked
But yeah fair the cyclops would clash with it (even if the cannon is better)

[young marlin]

What do people think about the neon annihilator?

[gleaming urchin]

i dont

[sharp pelican]

the neon annihilator isn't really needed because the shock therapy already has the "more damage against wet players" feature