#A skillshot bat for scout

150 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

hexed cargo
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BASEBALL!!!!

crisp silo
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Debuff could last somewhere between 3-6 seconds, depending on how far the ball was launched, debuff timer would be weaker from up close.

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tl:dr bat that launches damage vuln baseball that only the scout could benefit from

hexed cargo
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ehh im less for that, i feel like debuffs should be usable to more than the specific person who debuffed them

crisp silo
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cant be having a mad milk situation

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but then again that thing is an AOE

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this is a single target

hexed cargo
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mad milk is a spammable AoE and not a skillshot

crisp silo
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so sure, i dont mind it being able to be taken advantage of by others

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just not as a marked for death debuff

hexed cargo
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why not?

crisp silo
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moreso a damage vuln, probably 20% damage vuln

crisp silo
hexed cargo
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yeah... that's fine

crisp silo
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marked for death could work but its still minicrits

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25 second cooldown and -5 seconds when killing marked target?

hexed cargo
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maybe? i just think it being range-based duration MfD would be fine considering scout has the scattergun (shotgun which wouldnt benefit from it much), pistol (inaccurate at long range), nailgun (doesnt care about damage falloff), and the brick (see previous)

verbal yew
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i dont rly see why the scout would want even more damage when the scattergun can already kill very quickly with a few shots tho

crisp silo
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it makes it more supportive i guess but at the cost of the scout's survivability

astral solar
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I'm confused.

verbal yew
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you can already 2 shot most classes so i dont think you really need the extra damage of this idea?

astral solar
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Is it the same marked effect as the Fan O War?

verbal yew
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and the things that scout cant kill quickly, are basically needed to keep him in check

crisp silo
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this is a skillshot, not a free pass

astral solar
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So, this is essentially just a long range fan o war?

crisp silo
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sure i guess

hexed cargo
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i mean, sandman if it did what the fan o war does (aka actually good)

crisp silo
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need a utility bat

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at least like 1 second minimum range and 6 seconds max range

proven bolt
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This is kinda like the tranq on scout

crisp silo
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well, not tranq

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tranq isnt useful on scout

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so more damage support

proven bolt
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How would you give more DPS without something like mini crits?

hexed cargo
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20% is not enough to really feel, major

crisp silo
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could be 35% with falloff

astral solar
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Would this bat be a support item or a pick item,

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Like, would you use it selfishly or supportively

crisp silo
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it gets the most value with teammates

hexed cargo
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that's a cool idea but unless the scout has a reason to use it selfishly then it wont be likely to be used at all

crisp silo
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its still enough to be used selfishly though..

hexed cargo
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+35% damage just allows you to oneshot light classes at VERY close range which is unlikely (except against snipers and horribly unfortunate spies) when you need to hit them first

crisp silo
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well thats only likely if you have enough time to make the distance between the ball and you getting that close

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because the timer gets weaker the closer you launch it

hexed cargo
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yeah, thus there really isnt that much usage

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im not saying it's a bad idea but a weapon that mainly debuffs has to be able to be exploited by the debuffer to be useful

crisp silo
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6 seconds is enough time to get close

hexed cargo
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this is why the Fan'o'War is a bad weapon

verbal yew
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again i think this is kinda redundant with how strong scout already is, i would only see this being used by scouts who are not very good so they gotta rely on the extra damage instead of getting better at aiming and movement

crisp silo
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thats why its mini crit with falloff

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so that "scouts who are not very good" dont benefit from beaming people across the map

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and again, this isnt a free pass, its a skillshot, its going to be fairly hard to hit an enemy with the ball just as much as it is hard to hit a mini crit brick

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whatever fine tuning and nuance it may need can be left up to the devs if they decide

hexed cargo
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im saying that it's redundent if you're good at scout and even if you arent the benefits it offers to scout is minimal unless your dopamine hinges on your Assist and Support score

crisp silo
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its utility still

hexed cargo
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i know, im saying that it's utility is minimal

crisp silo
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damage is not minimal..

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its like saying the tranquilized effect is minimal utility

hexed cargo
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okay but like, the tranq allows you to crit with melee weapons, +35% damage allows you to SOMETIMES one-shot light classes and everyone else is two-shot

muted girder
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which I wholeheartedly approve; the Sandman at its core is a pretty fun weapon with great flavor, just ruined by the stun

crisp silo
verbal yew
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i think itd be easier to just go in and scattergun the enemy to death so being hit by the debuff wont give away that youre coming for them

crisp silo
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why does the brick exist then

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if it essentially fufills the same niche

hexed cargo
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what about that

crisp silo
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Melee weapons aren't ranged weapons

hexed cargo
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yeah??

crisp silo
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So its pointless to try and compare this with tranq effect?

verbal yew
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the brick does direct damage, so you can use it as a finisher rather than a fight starter

hexed cargo
crisp silo
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Mini crit w/ falloff is just fine for a single target that anyone on your team can benefit from vs. Melee range crit slow

astral solar
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Am I missing something here

crisp silo
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Im not talking about the tranquilizer

verbal yew
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i think this would have the same issue as the fan o war in live where you dont want your first hit to be anything other than a scattergun meatshot because that would just give the enemy time to gun you down

crisp silo
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Im talking about the effect itself

astral solar
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You...

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just did

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What??

crisp silo
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The effect, not the gun

crisp silo
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Its an inverse decay, the farther you hit the ball from, the longer the debuff timer lasts.

verbal yew
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hmmm but again i dont think the buff would be worth it anyway

crisp silo
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Its damage

verbal yew
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its more damage on a class that already has very good damage

crisp silo
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Yes, it's a skillshot

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You need to have good judgement and aim to benefit from it effectively.

verbal yew
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you can already kill most classes in 2 to 3 shots if youre good enough i dont think using this would be worth it since you'd have to deal with whatever downside it has

hexed cargo
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yeah. you've told us that three times now

crisp silo
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If you miss the ball then nothing will happen

hexed cargo
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but again, the benifits are minimal if you're good at aiming

crisp silo
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You cant hinge on it being 100% always hitting

verbal yew
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maybe i just dont get the concept of the weapon but i dont understand how it would be useful

crisp silo
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And again, this isnt minimal at all.. its a damage vulnerability, a large one. 35% is a lot.

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This bypasses civ's aura by 15%

verbal yew
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isnt the damage vulnerability only against damage the scout who attacked deals?

hexed cargo
crisp silo
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I made it clear that your teammates could benefit from jt as well

verbal yew
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oh i didnt see that part then

crisp silo
hexed cargo
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yeah which is cool but that cant be the only reason for a weapon's existence, the debuffer has to benefit from it too

crisp silo
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It mini crits at long range

hexed cargo
# crisp silo It mini crits at long range

the brick also deals 65 damage and is for mid-long range since the scattergun and pistol cant do mid/long range and the nailgun is inconsistent due to being a projectile

crisp silo
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Scout literally does benefit from it, he can deal more damage. More damage is more damage, and for something like the brick, it's damage can be increased with that combo.

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Same with the pistol

verbal yew
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oh ok the original message got edited, mmmm idunno this kinda sounds like you could just stay far away and debuff the enemy without much risk to yourself

crisp silo
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And it has downsides of costing scout's survivability

verbal yew
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do you have any ideas for what its downside would be?

crisp silo
hexed cargo
crisp silo
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Damage vulnerability or lower HP (effectively the same)

hexed cargo
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(and for reference medic dies with two shots and heavy in three anyways)

crisp silo
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It still can make a difference in this game.

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Breaking thresholds isnt that important

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Its simply a matter of being able to deal more damage and offer support

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Scout was going for a mixed bag of support and self-utility

hexed cargo
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the fact that it still has falloff makes it being for scouts playing at midranged just, not true

crisp silo
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Its not going to be any better if it doesn't have falloff

hexed cargo
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well then you could get somewhat good damage with the scattergun and the pistol can be used at long-range which is a genuine niche for it

crisp silo
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Can't be letting the scout enable an enemy to be beamed.

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Thats the issue with the sandman

hexed cargo
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letting ONE guy be beamed on a 20 second cooldown that requries more coordination than most lobbies will have

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the sandman was bad with that cause it stunned the enemy in place completely

crisp silo
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Yes

hexed cargo
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(or did the scared animation depending on which incarnation, both are bad)

crisp silo
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Same beam function

hexed cargo
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but significantly less annoying cause you can still fight back or flee

crisp silo
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If your doubt is on your teammates then I don't know what to tell you, it should be a unique effect

hexed cargo
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??

crisp silo
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You cant chalk up all beneficial things to a bad team when most players in this game are good

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Its downplaying the skillshot it's meant to be

hexed cargo
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im. not?

crisp silo
hexed cargo
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how does that downplay the skillshot part of it im getting confused

crisp silo
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Youre implying any amount of coordination is a rare thing because players don't do that

hexed cargo
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im saying that tf2 is designed for players not to intensely coordinate or coordinate no more than uber pushes and voicelines, and that debuffs which hinge on players exploiting it has to be easy to use and very noticeable benefit for the debuffer

crisp silo
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This is easy to use. You right click and it shoots a projectile

hexed cargo
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wait but you're saying it's a skillshot weapon

crisp silo
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Yes

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Because thats what it is, and so is the brick

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Easy to use, hard to master is the name of the game

hexed cargo
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i know, ive played this game for 15 years

crisp silo
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Ok

hexed cargo
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i just dont get it i guess

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if it doesnt remove falloff, why would you use it especially at the cost of survivability when +35%, yes is a lot, but you arent going to feel it when you already dish out so much damage and supporting teammates isn't inherently rewarding unless you're a medic main (hi)

scarlet kite
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how long would the debuff last? is it affected by range?