Remove the Mine Layer

[solemn mirage]

they should replace the minelayer with a burger gun that shoots burger patties and they're super yummy

[shell spruce]

You compare it to the flamethrower, I’d compare it more to the flog

Phlog?

Phlog

[tough bramble]

not saying its good just saying theres a counter

[rare holly]

There really isn't

The cyclops is meant to be a counter, sure

[shell spruce]

This is the kind of logic that creates games like overwatch and its why this argument scares me

[rare holly]

But it isn't one, like straight up. Mine layer easily overwhelms it in every single situation.

[tough bramble]

maybe have they mines be blowed up by pills and rockets

[shell spruce]

If this is the direction they take the game, it’s only going to get worse

Sorta like what happened to live!

[drowsy dawn]

i already said that making the mines easier to destroy doesnt really fix the main issue of the weapon

[shell spruce]

Weapons became obnoxious gimmicky messes that were either so OP you wish you had the gun in real life pointed at your temple, or so horribly gimped no one uses them

[drowsy dawn]

as long as it has the auto detonation gimmick its gonna be frustrating

[shell spruce]

My hunch is the mine layer is going to get the latter treatment before long

But I unfortunately think that’s the best case scenario

[tough bramble]

you guys are just complaining and not really giving ideas for change other then oh remove the point of the wepon

[shell spruce]

The flood gates of steam players are going to tear the weapon to shreds and flanderize the whole game into “mine layer”

[drowsy dawn]

like even if its easier to spot and destroy, i still shouldnt have to clear out and be afraid of a trap that the demo isnt looking after

[shell spruce]

That’s the point of the thread

“Remove the mine layer”

I’ve given suggestions because I want a chance of this thing getting effectively neutered

[drowsy dawn]

because there is no way to make the weapon fun while keeping its main gimmick, so the only option is either remove it or turn it into a completely different weapon

[tough bramble]

this is weapon ideas not weapons complaints

[shell spruce]

But don’t expect the thread to bend to your whim, you haven’t convinced them otherwise

Ideas can be complaints

Man

[drowsy dawn]

its weapon suggestions

[shell spruce]

You could just not engage with the thread

[tough bramble]

if you do that too much then you get r6

[rare holly]

That's because we've been playing for a long time

We've seen the changes this weapon has gone through

We know what the devs have and haven't tried

[shell spruce]

Yeah that’s another fair point

It’s not like they haven’t tried fixing it

[drowsy dawn]

some weapon concepts just dont work out, so why keep them around

[shell spruce]

I’ve hated the mine layer since day one for its concept and frankly I’ve had a lot of people react with nothing but hostility towards that idea

[rare holly]

The only thing they haven't tried is, well, just making it the scottish resistance, and for understandable reasons.

[shell spruce]

Like a dog getting a piece of human food and refusing to let go

[rare holly]

Every alternative has been explored whether through beta testing, custom weapons, or even just ideas

[shell spruce]

If the weapon doesn’t get fixed, I’ll be sure to host a second server that has all of the usual TF2C stuff and exclusively gets rid of the mine layer lol

In addition to the 2008 throwback

[rare holly]

There's not really a world where the mine layer with auto-det is balanced, fun to fight, and used frequently. Nerfing it will either not do enough or send it back into the pits of weapons nobody ever uses, and obviously buffing it or keeping it as is doesn't work because people hate fighting it.

[shell spruce]

People like it for its free kills

Simple as

[rare holly]

Exactly. Once those free kills stop being free, or the weapon starts requiring effort to use, or its just straight up not as powerful, most people just swap to stickies again.

We saw it after the previous 6 mine change

We'll see it again after this one

They'll nerf or revert the mine layer and its equip rate will plummet and then slowly continue to decline back down to normal levels.

Or it wont matter and nothing will change.

[drowsy dawn]

outright removing or completely reworking a weapon is harsh yes and not common for tf2 but i think its worth doing

[rare holly]

Agreed. It's extreme, but it's happened at least twice for TF2C. Once for 2.0 with a slew of weapons, and once for the fishwhacker. I see no reason it couldn't happen again for 3.0 especially when it is so obviously the most universally liked option that even people who are defending the mine layer would prefer over the current mine layer

[lethal creek]

there are solutions for the mine layer but the developers dont want to use any one of them
so just remove it

[rare holly]

None of the solutions you or anyone else has mentioned actually resolve the issue with the mine layers autodetonation

Aside from the obvious suggestion of "remove it and replace it with something else"

[shell spruce]

If the devs don’t do anything to the mine layer, I think it sets an extremely bad precedent for the rest of the game

[lethal creek]

remove it and replace it with the laser tripwire from Half Life

[shell spruce]

And I guarantee you, however mean people who like the weapon think we are, I guarantee you the wider TF2 community already hates many of the included weapons as is

[rare holly]

Awful idea but better than what we have now

To tell you the truth idk how the mine layer made it out of beta testing, especially in this state

[shell spruce]

Honestly yeah

It feels like the face stabbing knife

[rare holly]

Did nobody bring up how it could be an issue in any of the groups?

Cause if so, man beta testers are out of touch

[lethal creek]

as I said before, they are stuck in trying to make it an alternate sticky launcher

its called "mine layer"
looks inside
mine launcher

[shell spruce]

I’d really like to know the reasoning tbh

Cause it genuinely concerns me

I think most of the weapons are well balanced enough, but some definitely brush against feeling unbalanced more than others

If a weapon feels like it could be an issue, it’s generally best to lean into it being a little underpowered than overpowered

Cause once it’s in the game, it’s in the game until it is removed or changed

[rare holly]

Ngl I'm not sure what the beta testing process is, there's been a lot of misses lately between the cyclops, mines, and anchor

It feels like they're being developed for an entirely different playerbase sometimes

[shell spruce]

I don’t mind the cyclops, but I know it’s torture for engie mains

[rare holly]

Plus jump pads on release

[shell spruce]

And the anchor is fun, but it isn’t exactly what people assume it is

[lethal creek]

cyclops could use a radius nerf
it would encourage better timing on the users part

[shell spruce]

To be fair I think jump pads were always really fun

Maybe not the most balanced at launch, but they’re in a good spot now

[rare holly]

Jump pads on release were fun to use but impossible to kill when used on defense

[shell spruce]

But def the newer weapons aren’t as polished as the older ones across the board

They’re getting to be too gimmicky I think

[rare holly]

Anchors downside kills it for a lot of people, which is fair considering the bullshit I've seen happen with it and how janky it can be

[shell spruce]

Compare the anchor to the market gardener

And to be honest I think the direction betrays the whole point of the mod as a 2008/2009 ish feeling TF2

[shell spruce]

I bhop a lot, so yeahhh

[tough bramble]

the game is more of an ult timeline of tf2

[lethal creek]

im surprised the twin barrel survived as long as it did with its max 120 damage
that's so obviously an issue combined with its knockback and mobility potential

[shell spruce]

And that’s not how it’s advertised

It’s advertised as a continuation of what the game was in 2008 and 2009 specifically

[rare holly]

I'm hoping that Nito can help steer it back in that direction since he's the new balance lead. Seems like he has his shit together

[shell spruce]

That’s how it was including cut content

[shell spruce]

Here’s hoping

If he’s more of a Quake player than an overwatch player, we’re in good hands

But idk him all too well

[solemn mirage]

im excited for that too tbh

[rare holly]

Not to imply Azzy doesn't, but I don't think I agree with most of her balance and weapon design decisions.

[lethal creek]

I like the anchor actually

[shell spruce]

Can I be frank

[solemn mirage]

sure frank

[shell spruce]

I wouldn’t be surprised if some of it is maybe not a smidge a skill issue from some play testers

[rare holly]

I support your transition

[shell spruce]

Like the cyclops

[shell spruce]

Wow thanks guys, now everyone can stop bothering me in voice chat

[rare holly]

I mean you say that but you have multiple really good demo mains in the beta

[shell spruce]

The cyclops is great conceptually I think

I think it’s just too easy to do combos

It should probably roughly be as tricky as the loose cannon

But I could nail it after a few tries

[rare holly]

Honestly if anything I think the skill curve might be the other way around, where the testers are generally too good rather than the other way around, and the good players tend to center around some classes more than others.

[shell spruce]

Perhaps

[lethal creek]

the dynamite combo nicely ruins the balance dynamite had
i called this out before the update went live and they assured me it was a nonissue in testing
they lied to me

[shell spruce]

Or as nova said

[rare holly]

I really hate the killfeed text they give. I think the sound and the killfeed thing puts too much emphasis on them.

[shell spruce]

They had god like engies (or worse, extremely bad engies who didn’t like playing engie)

[rare holly]

And that's with a heavy nerf specifically to the cyclops+dynamite combo

[shell spruce]

I feel like they should have more public tests unless I’m blind and just never see them

[rare holly]

I'd eat my hat if I thought they had more than one spy main in the beta when testing for 2.2

[shell spruce]

The general player base needs to be kept in the loop

[shell spruce]

I doubt many spy or engie mains play this game

And that’s for good reason

The spy weapons are pretty gimmicky

[rare holly]

Ngl I think they just need to repick the whole beta tester pool. It's been what I can only imagine is the same people for a very long time. It's not like you ever hear of people being rotated out of or joining the beta anymore, right?

[shell spruce]

And engie gets bullied by pretty much everything they add to the game

Not that I’m aware of

[rare holly]

The scamper is boring and the tranq is just a mess

[shell spruce]

I highly doubt any of us would be invited tho LOL

[shell spruce]

The saving grace is how bad the tranq is

And yeah, the scamper isn’t terrible but it doesn’t exactly get people excited to play spy

[rare holly]

I've been outright told I'll never get into the beta by sniffy and Sam sent me a whole ass DM saying she finds me obnoxious and to never talk to her again

So I'm probably never getting in lmao

[solemn mirage]

i do think good beta testing requires frequent player swapping and idk if the player pool is big enough for that

oh wow lol

[shell spruce]

Which is odd, cause it feels like the mine layer is text book made for people who can’t time stickies right

Frankly, not to toss shade

It feels like it was made for primarily soldier mains who struggle to sticky spam and time traps

[solemn mirage]

thats a bit nepotistic tbh

[shell spruce]

Maybe a smidge, but I can really feel it

[lethal creek]

Sam has been generally problematic throughout all of my interactions with her

[shell spruce]

I don’t know anyone on the dev team personally

So idk what they think of me

[rare holly]

I think the current beta tester pool is just too apathetic about anything that isn't for soldier or demo. Like, the actual reason the jump pad changes made it in wasn't necessarily due to their own merit, which they do have, but rather because the testers genuinely just didn't give a shit

[shell spruce]

I’d guess nothing positive, but I kinda assume that of everybody

[rare holly]

I imagine the dev team as a whole has mixed opinions on me. Some probably like me well enough while others (Sam, boba, maybe sniffy? hard to tell where sniffy stands ngl) despise me

[shell spruce]

Makes sense

[lethal creek]

it feels like tf2 in general
a lot of live updates also felt revolved around soldier and demo just due to the sheer quantity of their mains in the playerbase

[shell spruce]

Anyhow I gotta dip for now

[heady monolith]

the jumppad changes make like no sense to me

[lethal creek]

jump pad always felt balanced to me so the nerf also didnt make sense

you sacrifice a lot by using jump pad over teleporters already

[rare holly]

Jump pads were incredibly strong on defense

Getting into map design a bit, a lot of maps use verticality as a way to define areas and give teams different advantages

Take steel for instance

Steel uses verticality on A and C to give blue a space to build, heal, take cover, push, and put pressure on red team

It's vital to the maps balance that blue has that space

The only class that can traverse that verticality is soldier, who can skirmish with blue and harass them while other players take the long way

[shell spruce]

The jump pad nerf is fine

[rare holly]

Jump pads entirely negate that height advantage and turn it on its heels by giving it to red

[shell spruce]

It is still extremely strong

[rare holly]

Combine that with a downtime of ~1.5 seconds and a cheap cost and you have a problem

[rancid prawn]

I do not like the minelayer, and never have liked the minelayer

[shell spruce]

I don’t personally struggle, but I can see it

Feels like most people don’t

[rare holly]

It was literally not worth sapping before because of how cheap and fast it was

[rancid prawn]

The only use I get out of it at all is comboing it with the cyclops

[heady monolith]

ahhhh so it was kind of a mini-sentry style problem but worse

theres still a point to sapping them though, it adds another thing to the engineer's to-do list which while it doesn't take much time might leave another building unguarded

[rare holly]

There is now, when they have significant downtime and a higher cost

Previously, they were too helpful to you to ever be worth destroying unless you were being chased

Anyways yes mine layer bad

[solemn mirage]

yeah so like, just give the uberspritze treatment and make it a slightly altered live weapon

in this case the scotres

[lethal creek]

make it like the real life claymore mine

[rare holly]

Honestly they could just scrap it and add the scot res outright

[lethal creek]

it doesnt auto detonate, but it will give you a signal if it has been triggered

[rare holly]

It's an achievement item like the other weapons we have

And it'd be less weird than the uberspritz

Wouldn't be a better time to do it than in 3.0

[solemn mirage]

i like it having its current model and name, they're interesting and far more distinct then the scotres model

[rare holly]

True, but they could also be reused for something different

[dreamy knoll]

Mine layer now shoots anti-tank mines that are only triggered by heavy and civillian's fatass

[shell spruce]

What if tomorrow the Scottish resistance was slightly tweaked and made into the new mine layer

Would you be open to that?

[solemn mirage]

that'd be cool, i like the minelayer but that's mostly because it lets me not focus on my traps and do something else

i think its really noval and interesting but clearly there's a problem

like 4 people have come in during this and said the exact same thing lol

[shell spruce]

Then it sounds like a good solution if a bunch of people are down for it

And some of the more notable mine layer users like it

I personally see it as highly unlikely we’ll see that approach, but a girl can dream

[solemn mirage]

i like the scotres too and i use both of them in pretty much the same situations anyway so it wouldn't change much for me

we'll probably keep seeing more offensive reworkings of the ML if we're being realistic, or just a reversion into its 2.1.5 state

[restive nest]

Tweaked how?

[shell spruce]

Idk, you work that out

As long as it’s not auto det, Idrc

[solemn mirage]

probably just simplified with a cleaner description

its kinda a stat salad currently

[restive nest]

No, I’m not selling myself a washing machine. You gotta sell me it.

[shell spruce]

I’m selling you the removal of auto det

What you find to be a suitable replacement is on you

[restive nest]

Yeah, so what’s the Fine Print?

[shell spruce]

And if I have to go over all of the issues with the auto detonation

[restive nest]

There’s always a catch if there’s no finer detail.

[shell spruce]

I think I’m actually going to blow my brains out

[restive nest]

Stepping on a mine will simplify it

[rare holly]

I'm convinced rabble is just an elaborate troll account

[tough bramble]

Just asking for stickys 2

[tough bramble]

Nah he's not that bad

[restive nest]

I’m only trolling when is there

[restive nest]

Nova’s just a Schtick.

Watch him and Vror bash heads when you get them going.

[rare holly]

Usually me and Vror are arguing for the same thing from two different perspectives

[restive nest]

Red Vs Blu IRL

[tough bramble]

My issue with this entire thing is that you guys want to remove the weapon when the weapon isn't that bad overall it just need tweaking

[dreamy knoll]

Novas username is blue and Vror's is red too

[tough bramble]

Lmao

[restive nest]

That’s the joke

[tough bramble]

Something like the phlog (no clue how you spell it) is a weapon where i can see the argument to remove but even in that case I'd give it mini crits make it flamethrower damage only and there its more balanced (very base line balancing)

[restive nest]

I mean, just like the Buttercrits ain’t going away because the Achievements actively want you to do it, the mines are not Straight up being removed. Idk how to please everyone, but that’s always been an impossible feat

[tough bramble]

Yea that's true

I mean some people will complain about the huntsman

[lethal creek]

huntsman does at least require you to aim and time your shots a little bit

[tough bramble]

Yea my point is there are people that hate it even tho the weapon is fine the only thing id say is bad about it are the hitboxs

[lethal creek]

Im going to admit when i first played tf2c i didnt understand the mine layer
it was only after realizing its spam potential that i started using it
and later i tuned into using it for trapping as well

if used correctly it is basically a noob's sticky launcher, an already noob weapon

[tough bramble]

spamming it is the issue i think really

But 3 or 4 shots and that makes it a ton better already

[late estuary]

damn lol

[lethal creek]

I will never understand the faster firing speed and slightly longer (non-charge) range compared to stock

did they WANT spamming?

[late estuary]

Ive always feared the beta tester team being filled with yes men so to say

[elder jolt]

Wouldn't adding the Scottish resistance tread on the cyclops?

[late estuary]

Anchor hurts esp for me

[solemn mirage]

Not really

the cyclops is mostly for combos not really for multi trapping

[sage fox]

All responsibility for gameplay decisions are on the game designers themselves.

[solemn mirage]

it can be for that but its not great at it

also yeah beta testers give feedback but its ultimately up to the devs to interpret gameplay and feedback to make changes

[lethal creek]

I just need the designers to understand that auto-detonating stickies are inherently broken and require a lot of careful balancing to feel fair

Ive played singleplayer games with more balanced weapons than any iteration of the mine layer in tf2c

[late blade]

MAYBE they could reduce the mines from 6 to only 4

[sage fox]

Normally I would not mention something like this but considering this has reached a comical number of comments in one day...
A large nerf was queued a week ago.

[tough bramble]

That settles it then xb

[solemn mirage]

oh boy oh boy

4 max mines minelayer here we come again lmfao

[lethal creek]

frankly ive seen attempts at nerfs and reworks before and until i get to use it myself theres no way I can immediately trust it

back to business

mine layer bad

[frigid parrot]

I would like to defend the honor of our testers and mention that no matter how hard you try, you can’t perfectly replicate the public experience in private testing

[sage fox]

Simply put, the minelayer exists in its current form due to a miscommunication about what we were attempting to achieve with the rework. Playtesters tend to focus more on new content (this has been true for all waves), and the change was during a period where there was a lul in development. This caused contradictory changes to the weapon to fall through the cracks. Post launch we had not had the time to iterate much more due to the whole "rebuilding the game on a new sdk" thing.
In the future, I wish to have a better means of testing rebalances.

[solemn mirage]

So basically the changes weren't thoroughly tested enough due to the new content being the main focus of testers, so the weapon wasn't used enough for complains to really surface and it got in under the assumption that it was fine.

That makes sense

[shell spruce]

Well that’s reassuring, here’s hoping everything runs smoothly… curious what the nerf will be

[restive nest]

Everybody keeps thinking it’s the Market when it’s a Saxton Stomp.

[shell spruce]

That’s because almost nobody plays vsh anymore tbf

[restive nest]

It’s still the closest equivalent, I didn’t play it as much as others, but I still think it’s closer

[shell spruce]

Plus people have wanted an equivalent to the gardener for some time, hence the confusion.

But I agree it’s closer to a ground pound than the market gardener

[solemn mirage]

Idk what people were expecting with the anchor tbh, its everything I wanted it to be and more

the devs said it was going to be a mantreads gardener mix for a while and thats what it is

[shell spruce]

I like the anchor, but it’s definitely situational and I’m a chronic bhopper so I don’t tend to do well with it

[restive nest]

They want it to deal 100 damage on slam and fizzle out stickies

[sage fox]

More importantly, devs (including myself) were not on the same page about what the rework was meant to do. So, one iteration was put foreward, then another which defeated the point of the first, which is why the stats for it are so odd.

[solemn mirage]

onhh

that also makes sense

[shell spruce]

That explains the faster firing speed

Like half the stats feel akin to the quickie bomb launcher, half of them feel akin to someone who really blows as demo wanted to play demo more often

That said I think the cyclops fits the role of a faster firing remote detonation thingy better

[restive nest]

Can we fix the nailgun “nerf” to just apply to sentries? Like i get it’s too good against sentries (or so they said) but heavy’s minigun only applies to sentries.

Or at the very least make it not randomly deal 11 damage every 14th nail. (It makes my brain itch looking at it.)

[solemn mirage]

we'll see which version of the ML gets in, offensive combo tool or defensive flank/choke holder

[shell spruce]

Honestly I hope they nix the auto det or at least give projectile classes a good way to deal with it

But if it’s nerfed so far into the ground nobody uses it anymore, I’m also totally cool with that

I just don’t want to get holed in as demo anymore

[restive nest]

Defence… Dyna’s already the offence pick on the spectrum

[solemn mirage]

yeah it'll probably just gonna axe some of the offensive stats like the projectile speed and maybe add some more arm time stuff

i doubt they'd go too far with the nerfs lol, they're not valve

anyway thanks for the insight Nito, very nice and interesting information

[restive nest]

That makes me wonder who passing off the changes… and who do I have to hunt down for letting the Harvester off Scot-free.

[sage fox]

If you're looking for some specific dev to blame everything on, you wont find one. This example just stems from the challenges of coordinating a large team over the internet.

[restive nest]

Well someone let the harvester off free and the torch is already burning. So let’s get ready to riot!

[lethal creek]

it used to be that most people simply didnt understand the weapon's potential so back when it was four stickies at the time even with the faster charge speed no one really used it

it wasnt until it spread just how busted the weapon was for spamming, even with its smaller bomb count, that people started using it a lot

remember the scottish resistance doesnt get that much use in live not because it's bad, but because people want to spam

and then the last update made it even more spam happy with the three-shot burst and longer launch range

[restive nest]

-# the 6 clip spam. cough cough

[lethal creek]

"ship it" 🚢

[restive nest]

I mean, if this was the harvester debate, this would be a prime example of “don’t rely on the data” as people say that the Fire axe is “on par” with the harvester due to numbers.

But the 6 clip was added because the mines were under-performing or not being picked as much… now look what happened. A crater of spam… because Demo mains… they gotta blow up everything in our faces.

[lethal creek]

if they really wanted to remove spam from mine layer they would have reduced it to just 1

3 even without the faster firing speed is just enough to be spam-friendly

it usually takes 3 mines to kill all but the heavy

[restive nest]

The simple solution and I do not know how this was missed… is to just make the mines start the arm time when they land and not when fired.

They hit a wall, start the 0.7s clock, boom, now it’s active.

Now all that air time is so much more warning of what’s coming your way.

[lethal creek]

There are a surprisingly number of ways to balance the mine layer
and the team's solution so far has been: "let's try none of them 👍 "

[shell spruce]

I think knowing they’re working on a nerf, we can let this thread rest until we see it in action

[lethal creek]

oh sorry I misread that as "we can't let this thread rest" and agreed with you

oops

no
this thread will keep going until we see it in action

[solemn mirage]

i mean if you want to keep arguing over a think that the devs said that they already have a patch coming out for them you can ig

[lethal creek]

Yeah but i dont really trust them based on past experience with "patching" the mine layer

sorry but it is what it is

[spark haven]

I don't want to have to scrap a model I spent a long time perfecting also so... qwq

(I'm talking about a mod for the minelayer)

[strong orchid]

thought about reading this whole thread without realising there's 1300 messages total

[dreamy knoll]

Shortest weapon balance discussion

[twilit zodiac]

way I see it I'm rarely ever bothered dying to a mine trap and the Minelayer is only okay at best as a spam weapon, while Stock Sticky Spam fills me with the anger of ten thousand suns, so the only way I'd remotely find the Minelayer getting nerfed from it's current form is if the Stock Sticky Launcher also got hit with the nerf bat(indeed even if the Minelayer is left as is I think the Stock Sticky Launcher needs a nerf)

[shell spruce]

They tried that on live TF2

Did not go over well

[naive mica]

so that's what it was all about . . .

[lost mist]

The problem is just the minelayer is a direct upgrade to stock

[strong orchid]

what

[lost mist]

[rare holly]

I wouldnt call it a direct upgrade but its definitely about as effective and significantly easier

[restive nest]

As of now…

[rare holly]

Yes, we should nerf it into the ground instead of reworking it into something actually good /s

[naive mica]

funny how they changed it shortly after this discussion

[rare holly]

There hasnt been an update

[restive nest]

Shak, you saw what happened with the stickies yesterday, on Barnblitz right?

[naive mica]

well I heard you saying how boring and easy sticky spam is and I saw you top score but that only proved to me that people don't know how to counter demoman

[lost mist]

People who sticky spam don't understand the true value of stickies

[naive mica]

huh

wha

what is it then

[lost mist]

Traps

[naive mica]

shitting 4 sitickies on a door and waiting for someone to come through

yeah I knew it

[lost mist]

Not just that

[naive mica]

thats the thing its so versatile

[lost mist]

But yeah mostly thst

Place 2 Stickies right where someone is walkng to and kablewey

[naive mica]

thats what sticky spamming is

its a bad word to describe this tho

[cloud ravine]

I don’t know if this would be a good idea(I’m not a game designer by any means) but what if they changed the mines to work like the stereorypical idea that a mine only explodes after you step out of it. So it would only explode after you left it’s detection range. This would give counterplay to blindly spamming it on corners and chokes while still maintaining the core idea and giving synergy with the grenade launcher (It would essentially transform enemies into stationary targets) and the cyclops(same thing as launcher but with combo together)

[naive mica]

demoman has 8 stickies so thats were the spam word comes from, but if he sucks he will miss those and run out of ammo

[cloud ravine]

Though these changes should probably come with a clip size nerf and reduced projectile speed

[naive mica]

he'll kill like one guy and the other one will stomp him if he can't hit pipes either

okay the typical sticky spam situation is probably where demo has the perfect range to launch stickies onto his target and immediately detonate them

and thats were you say omg sticky spam noob cuz u were in that range and he just pressed m1 m2 m1 m2 m1 m2 and ur dead

sorry I really don't have nothing to say about the minelayer but rabbit made me realize im a bit of a stickies glazer, I just like them more than mines

[restive nest]

If I as a first time Spammer can Dominate with piss all effort, maybe it’s not the opponents at fault here. :/

[naive mica]

I refuse to believe its your first time playing demoman

[restive nest]

Wel it is like that. Usually I’m chucking Dynamite packs n shit

[naive mica]

you did play the game before dynamite tho right

[restive nest]

Yeah but not with stickies… ever.

[naive mica]

wow okay

fine

I can't argue they arent op

cuz they are

but its not like they have no counter either

[restive nest]

Like I think the only time I used stickies here was for the “Aged like Wine” achievement, and that requires Traps for it

[restive nest]

Shooting them is not a valid argument when half the time they will explode before you can line up the shot to hit them.

And looking at the floor to counter a class doesn’t sound like good interactions.

[naive mica]

didn't say shoot them, which you should do, just , get out of demoman's comfortable range of sticky arm time

[restive nest]

Hell, my biggest beef is why the Shit he needs 8 of them, 6 is still generous for the highest based damage weapon in the game.

[naive mica]

yeah it is a lot I give you that more than enough to kill a lot of people especially when you also have grenades

its the perfect pub stomping weapon

[restive nest]

Like, ever noticed how some User will SWEAR the Stickies are his primary weapon? Like, are you kidding me? If that isn’t obvious enough for the problem idk what else to tell you.

That’s like someone coming along and saying the Pistol is Scout Primary (in an alternate timeline where the pistol is LETHAL)

[naive mica]

I'd say that too cuz the damage is more consistant than hitting pipes

crazy world we live in

its still projectiles tho, which means more room to dodge

[rare holly]

Or someone coming along and saying the revolver is spies secondary

(Teasing in good fun)

[restive nest]

Don’t… you… dare…

[naive mica]

give me amby in tf2c

I dare you

the old one

[restive nest]

Valve wants a word with you.

[restive nest]

Easier said on paper than in execution when the Drunk has control of when they go boom.

Hell, ever notice that Crit stickies just straight up deal 360 base compared to pipe’s 300?

And the pipes got the clip size reduction back in the day when the WINBOMBS were the problem? Like I just- HUH?!?!

[naive mica]

I just told you its about the range between you and demo

if you're far, he can det when he wants but you also have more time to get out of the way, when you're close he can't det fast enough, but if your in the midrange thats when ur fucked

and suprise he can miss stickies too , bro is drunk after all

and yeah crit does 360 cuz the base is 120

tho the fall off still applies to crit stickies

so its not usually 360

[restive nest]

That’s only by the splash, not by distance.

But it still wild to me this was only given a “timer” then like.. a clip cut or damage reduction.

Like you say the high damage is from buildings, but if they were 100 each you’d still dump 3 of them and there goes the nest and you still have 5 over.

I just- it’s like a sleeper agent of “How the hell did this pass with a slap on the wrist.”

[lost mist]

Are you talking about Stickies or mines

Say anything remotely negative about sticky bombs and i kill you with hammers

In tf2 of course

[lethal creek]

https://tenor.com/view/skull-funny-gif-20087193

[restive nest]

Stickies.

Like unironically have never used stickies for spam and I immediately pub stomped.

[restive nest]

Come and Fight me then mate. I’ll beat you at your own game.

[late blade]

Mine Layer should be given to Civilian

[restive nest]

Lays 1 mine out to Civvie Jump

[stiff niche]

Can I get a AI generated summary or something i don't want to read 1.3k messages

some of us have jobs

[restive nest]

Auto Det bad, Mines unfun, blame Double Down, Stickies just as bad, bring back Scotty.Rez, Demo Unbalanced as usual.

[delicate bronze]

@grok summarize

[stiff niche]

What's with the downvotes then @gock

Pretty good argument so far

[restive nest]

The statement is to Remove the mines rather then to Fix the weapon. Nobody wants to completely Cut a weapon. Even being “replaced” or “rework” is better than straight up removing it.

Unless it’s KO

[stiff niche]

Thanks, will be back at 2.5k

[drowsy dawn]

the thing is you cant fix the weapon without getting rid of the auto detonation mechanic so youre basically making a whole new weapon if you try to rework it, which is esentially removing it and replacing it with something else

[rare holly]

Autodetonation is annoying for trapping and spamming so we should remove it, people want to keep it but nerf the mine layer into oblivion to justify free kills

[sand basin]

@timid sable i will gonna murder of you

[drowsy dawn]

ah! i dont think the law allows that!

[timid sable]

taps the sign

[sand basin]

no

[cloud ravine]

I had an idea that would make it so the mines would only explode when you get out of their detection range

I feel like that still keeps the core idea and makes it require a bit more thinking from the demo

[timid sable]

while that could be nice i feel it's very counter-intuitive as players try to instinctively move away from danger

it helps a little against spamming it directly at someone on a point, but it doesn't really help getting free un-earned trap kills or just randomly throwing them along the ground

my problem has always been that it's literally just the Scottish Resistance but better because it requires no effort at all

[cloud ravine]

Eh if the minelayer had a counter that is just as easy as it’s use (just standing still and pulling a hitscan or melee) I think at that point it’s kinda a skill issue if someone dies to a random stack of mines

[delicate bronze]

What if the mines were trip mines instead of proximity mines

[late blade]

Mmmmm

Idk

[stiff niche]

they'd have to be visually redone since you'd have to step on them

And they have a big glowing light on them

[delicate bronze]

Not really
A laser can come out of the middle of them

[stiff niche]

Sachel charge gaming

in Half life DM the trip mines were not particularly good

Since the laser was easily visible and can be easily avoided

[drowsy dawn]

i mean that would still have the problem of the demo can get kills with them without even looking at the trap

[late blade]

Yeah it sounds good on paper

But when actually in use, it changes nothing, you just see it better now

[delicate bronze]

Yeah but this way theres a visible danger zone instead of a quiet beeping sound

https://youtu.be/RF1k0yFCCDE?si=ecMy31OLBsj1Kp5a

[stiff niche]

I think it wouldn't really be a problem if there was a genuine investment. Sentries do this all the time and people can't be mad because a engi has to invest time and metal into getting one up in an unlikely place

[drowsy dawn]

theyd be easier to avoid yeah but still i dont think the demo should be able to get kills with a trap without looking after it

[delicate bronze]

Why not

[drowsy dawn]

the problem is the demo doesnt have metal he needs to spend to set up a trap like the engineer, his traps require way less commitment

[stiff niche]

it'd be way underpowered. It works in black mesa because all players are faster than scouts on default

So little to no reaction time even with a big tell

And even so they still suck

[stiff niche]

Fuse time gaming

[delicate bronze]

It still might be worth trying out if the devs havent already
Besides this way the weapon will keep its identity

[stiff niche]

Maybe if the laser was invisible and deformed under fire or something

Like how cloak functions

[delicate bronze]

Only visible from a certain range maybe

[drowsy dawn]

it requires less skill from the demo for basically the same efficiency, it allows him to attack other people while still keeping the trap a threat because unlike with regular stickies he doesnt need to pay attention to his trap to kill people with it, its not fun to fight because you cant bait the demo into detonating early or ambush him while he's distracted

[stiff niche]

I think the major issue is that you can't destroy it when you know it's there unlike sentries

So you can't disarm the trap

Unless the trap is comedically bad

[drowsy dawn]

sticky traps are already very strong but theyre kept in check by the demo needing to keep his attention on them to make use of them, when you see a sticky trap you know that the demo is gonna be nearby looking after it giving you a chance to ambush him from another side while he's distracted

[restive nest]

You’d be surprised just how effective clicking buttons with the Stickies are with 8 bombs in 1 gun.

[drowsy dawn]

stickies still require you to time your detonations properly

[stiff niche]

Hell i think the spam aspect of it is alot more of an issue than the trap

[subtle ember]

thats so much skill bro

[late blade]

I FUCKING HATE SKILL

[drowsy dawn]

your arguments in favour of the minelayer have basically all been "stickies are the same"

[subtle ember]

man i feel like minelayer haters just need better opinions tbh

[stiff niche]

no don't get me wrong it sucks

[drowsy dawn]

and if stickies are apparently already easy to use then why do we need a weapon that makes them even easier to use?

[late blade]

Remove spy, sniper, and demoman
Problem solved

[stiff niche]

Scout, medic, soldier

All you need

[drowsy dawn]

the auto detonation mechanic does nothing aside from doing the demo's job for him

[sacred forge]

I thought there would be a discussion about how bad this weapon. I can’t believe someone struggles against it

[restive nest]

Not from what I did.

[delicate bronze]

We need to bring back deathmatch so bad man

[late blade]

Open Fortress

[sacred forge]

They’ll get sued

[stiff niche]

Devs should all individually write a paragraph on how the mine layer

[delicate bronze]

By who

[sacred forge]

The name we can’t say out loud

[drowsy dawn]

then read what i said about why do we need the minelayer then if stickies are apparently already so easy

[late blade]

TDC

Pretty sure that project is dead now tho

Idk

[sacred forge]

TDC is a game, they can’t sue anyone!

[delicate bronze]

I cant believe compucolor invented deathmatch

[sacred forge]

You’re wrong. I’ll say that. Don’t want to get into this discussion.

[drowsy dawn]

also good players can rush down a demo and avoid his stickies with good movement and baiting him to detonate at a bad time, you cant do that with the minelayer because his bombs detonate perfectly for free

[shell spruce]

Man, deathmatch would be cool to have, open fortress is nice but nobody plays it

[restive nest]

Back when it had a 4 clip, where it wasn’t as spammable, it was much simpler to walk away from each radius. I can walk out of the trigger from a spammer back then but now there’s just too many at once.

It’s meant to be a defence oriented weapon with a fair warning that there’s mines round the corner, it just so happens the beeping is a little too quiet.

If the beeping was to that of a sentry, I’m fairly certain more people wouldn’t walk into it.

[shell spruce]

It feels like I gotta BULLY people into playing deathmatch with me

[drowsy dawn]

this still has the issue of giving the demoman free kills with traps he's not paying attention to, which is just annoying and not fun to fight

[sacred forge]

I’m better than you in Open Fortress.

[late blade]

Ask famous tf2ber to play OF
Said famous tf2ber plays it
More people are interested
Problem solved!

[drowsy dawn]

sure if i can see the mines i wont walk into them, but i shouldnt have to worry about a trap that the demoman is not looking after in the first place

[shell spruce]

Idk, potentially, it’s been a bit

[delicate bronze]

I think the real problem with the mine layer is that it doesnt commit enough to its gimmick

[restive nest]

Neither is walking into a sticky trap he IS a Watching, that’s just the fault in demo being able to set up traps on general.

[delicate bronze]

People tend to use it as a spamming device more often than using it for traps

[sacred forge]

I’d like to play Open Fortress with somebody

[stiff niche]

kinda true

[shell spruce]

Yeah but I don’t watch tf2 YouTubers so I wouldn’t know who to bully

[shell spruce]

I kinda don’t agree, I specifically despise its gimmick

[restive nest]

Yeah, make it so it can’t stick to walls and if they land face down they explode without a trigger

[delicate bronze]

A scout can bait out the mines to explode without damaging him if hes good enough

[shell spruce]

Spamming is annoying, but for me specifically it’s like fighting a demo using a crutch

It’s about as difficult to counter as a good demo spamming me out with stickies, but I can handle a decent demo

What I can’t counter are a bunch of mines clustered down a choke with any projectile that isn’t the cyclops

[drowsy dawn]

like i said many times before, sticky traps can be fought against because if a demo is trapping, he's gonna be near the trap and will be easier to ambush when he's distracted

[shell spruce]

And maybe I don’t want to feel pressured into running the cyclops because very single time I play demo

[drowsy dawn]

sure stickies and mines are the same when you get killed by them, but theres more to it than just that

[delicate bronze]

Just tank the damage brah

[shell spruce]

Yeah, it’s why I feel like this could have been put to rest

We’re getting a nerf and until we know what it is…

[drowsy dawn]

then what do you do as any other class

[shell spruce]

If the damage was reduced significantly, maybe

But then no one would use it anyways

Plus that leaves you extremely vulnerable

[stiff niche]

I don't like how you have to stack mines on eachother to do anything real damage as a trap

[restive nest]

Probably the same nerf as the Twins losing 15 max damage.

[delicate bronze]

You can scatter the mines with explosives making them less dangarous
Heavies can tank some of the damage

[stiff niche]

Id rather lower mines out and have each mine deal damage enough for a trap

[shell spruce]

It needs to be chip damage for me to accept I have to go down to potentially bad damage thresholds because some tool hit M1 sat in spawn

[drowsy dawn]

i hope the nerf is more than just tweaking damage numbers or firing speed because that still wouldnt solve the core issue that is the auto detonation

[shell spruce]

Me too

I really hope they focus on auto detonation

Again if they nerf damage into the ground that would also effectively be the same as removing it cause no one would use it

[drowsy dawn]

like i said, i shouldnt have to do this in the first place for a trap that the demo is not paying attention to, sticky traps should only be effective if the demo is watching them for them to not be completely unbalanced

[shell spruce]

But I would rather they solve the actual issue, auto detonation

[sacred forge]

Isn’t that the whole point of the mine layer

[shell spruce]

Yeah, that’s why the weapon is fundamentally terrible

[drowsy dawn]

yes because the point of the main layer is a bad point

[stiff niche]

I suprisingly haven't seen this done yet against a mine trap yet

[drowsy dawn]

its a bad concept from the getgo

now i gotta go eat dino nuggets goodbye 🐭

[shell spruce]

I don’t know how it left beta testing tbh

[shell spruce]

Goodbye

[sand basin]

Mine Layer was nothing detonate while his an moving did come when are skills about talking at thread todays

[late blade]

Octo
Great Blue
TheWhatShow
SolarLight
elmaxo
ShorK
SpaceGuyOnline
SoundSmith

Big big names

[drowsy dawn]

hitman hitlist

[sand basin]

if you didnt know what about Mine Layer gonna be nerfed and be removed? What thats is it all talking about you, were suppossed while so smart in game

[delicate bronze]

I do it all the time

[restive nest]

As far as I can tell from hearsay. The DD patch was meant to be counter by the cyclops. Which I’ll agree, is Pretty stupid logic to assume a weapon will be counter by another instead of… making the weapon function on its own.

[sand basin]

i know why its fun

[restive nest]

Shit wrong person

[solemn mirage]

bro octo don't even make tf2 videos anymore lol

or videos at all

[restive nest]

@shell spruce Ctrl C, Ctrl V.

[late blade]

Can you let me cope brah

Watch

When he comes back, the first video he will make will be Open Fortress

And the player count will skyrocket

[restive nest]

Brother, why you calling out beef with these guys?

[late blade]

Wouldn't say beef
Let's just say they should be "encouraged" to play OF

[restive nest]

Oh, I thought this was for something else, like “these guys say Tf2c sucks, blah blah blah.”

Since that was a topic last time that some “big names” have beef with certain weapons.

[vivid summit]

Holy shit

[shell spruce]

I’m going to outline all of the issues here to make it really easy:

• Auto Detonation makes it potentially impossible for Stock Demo and Gunboats soldier to clear chokes filled with mines so long as the demo hides out of sight from the choke.

• Even classes with hitscan often struggle with clearing mines if their weapons have a great deal of spread (shotguns, miniguns, SMGs, etc)

• Faster firing speed in conjunction with the auto detonation makes the mine layer far too easy to counter sentry nests with, a scenario which the mine layer ought to struggle in as a primarily defensive weapon.

• The only solid counter to the mine layer traps into either tank damage or switch to a class with hitscan, and even then you’ll want more accurate hitscan weapons if you don’t want to get caught out trying to get one pellet to finally land on their teeny hitbox.

Now I’m going to discuss potential solutions:

• Allow projectiles and melee attacks to disarm or fizzle mines whilst increasing their hitscan hitbox to make it easier to remove clusters of mines for every class with every weapon combo.

• Create a fizzle timer, mines would have a set amount of time active and would eventually fizzle out. This wouldn’t fix the problem in of itself, but would force demos to be more proactive with their traps and would make it easier to focus fire on him.

• Outright remove auto detonation in favor of a better gimmick

[lost mist]

I feel like the one thing we can take from this is that the minelayer may be controversial

Kinda felt like that was obvious around the 1500th message

[shell spruce]

I recognize sound smith and Great Blue, albeit the latter only from Bluefort

And my first exposure to bluefort was people talking about gutting beloved maps in favor of e celeb “fixes”

And eventually I try the map and lo and behold most of the changes were bad

[shell spruce]

Yeah, I hate this logic

Very… overwatch esque design of having one stop solutions

TF2 isn’t rock paper scissors, mine layer doesn’t beat grenade launcher, which beats cyclops, but cyclops beats mine layer

That’s stupid

And it’s CERTAINLY not “uhhh just switch to sniper so you can clear mines, or play heavy and totally just tank the damage”

Evidently that wasn’t even the intent given we already got an explanation from the dev team

I guess I should probably say moba, not necessarily overwatch

It’s a little reductive to pin all of that sort of design on one game, when the issue is OW and TF2 are fundamentally different albeit in a subtle way: one is a first person moba, the other is Quake with weapons divided up between classes with their own up sides and downsides

Designed to make TF2 more approachable to new players

[late blade]

Replace mine layer with a heroine syringe that is basically fast hands from rtd system

[shell spruce]

They should replace the mines with frisbees that deal 10 damage tops

[restive nest]

You’d be surprised that they’re also using this “overwatch esque” logic with the Harvester rn. But that’s a different story to burn later.

Like I get the faster firing speed sucks, hell I hate it myself. And I’m trying to fight the Mines corner.

But yeah, this shit was such a bad take. What worse is the faster firing speed was in the betas back when this still had 6 in a clip in its old function. So who Knows how bloody long this was going on for.

[shell spruce]

How so? The harvester encourages more counter play, not necessarily less

And frankly the faster firing speed itself isn’t the worst idea IF the weapon has a long arm time

So for reference in 2014 Valve nerfed the arm time for stickies, which made spamming much harder

It was quickly reverted because it killed one of Demo’s best offensive options… but all the same, something like that could work for a lobotomized sticky launcher like the mine layer

[late blade]

You harvest crops and Dat sucks

[shell spruce]

I’d be more upset by the harvester if it shut down a class completely

[solemn mirage]

idk how the harvester is overwatch esque if it gives you more general options against the pyro

i mean it kinda promotes camping and playing passively

but the crit counter balances that

[restive nest]

The often take is that the Harvester is “Balanced” due to it under performing compared to the Fire axe.

But it doesn’t account for the wide gap that is the fresh mercs who can’t survive for 3 minutes and ||[REDACTED]|| who are busy farming off said installs and snowballing the match.

All I ask is that there SOMEONE kind of penalty that actually effects the life of a pyro rather then the post-Mortem kill potential (which, while effected and on theme, is a very small portion of pyro’s kills)

[shell spruce]

That’s less an overwatch ish rock paper scissors issue and more an issue live TF2 has

With like say… the ubersaw

But even then the lack of afterburn post mortem can definitely hurt in ways you can’t necessarily see coming

It would have to be an exceedingly small change imo

Like reducing how much you heal by a bit, or reducing the amount you can heal until the bar charges

[stiff niche]

This really should be it's own thread but agree

Make ur own post and I will star it

[shell spruce]

There is a thread for it

[restive nest]

It was… Mine.

[stiff niche]

Then necro it 4head

[restive nest]

166% Lifesteal from afterburn. Becuase apparently 3/tick or 6/sec is “too weak”… it’s free Healing for Gibus sake, wdym????

The crit should have been the draw of the harvester but, on launch, no healing cap, stacks in healing, Crit wasn’t visible. Yep, seems legit

[timid sable]

if nothing else, this thread has absolutely proven the statement I lead with ("The Mine Layer is an incredibly controversial weapon...")

[late blade]

Nobody can decide if it should be nerfed or if it should be executed cartel style

[timid sable]

I'm of the opinion that no damage source in this game should be automated outside of Sentry Guns.

[lost mist]

true true true

[lost mist]

Put it in the Iron Maiden and throw it in a volcano

[timid sable]

Sentries are balanced by the fact that they require a significant time and resource investment by the engineer, as well as being constantly maintained by him and placed in a good spot or else it risks being destroyed and having all of that effort completely undone. Mines require absolutely zero of this, being able to be vomited out at any point and then completely forgotten about until the demo hears the "beep" of them triggering.

[lost mist]

mines never miss which are way too overpowered

it's a disgrace to the fine art of sticky spamming

[timid sable]

Even shit like rollers, which people could possibly say as "undeserved kills" required the demo to actually shoot it and can be fully avoided because they detonate on their own, so if you aren't near them they don't do anything.

Mines are guaranteed to trigger if you go near them so "just avoid them" is not a great argument when they're strewn about the floor in the middle of an active firefight.

"What about stickies" stickies detonate all at once and mines detonate individually without input

[lost mist]

this is one of the major reasons why it's op

[shell spruce]

I feel like this sums up the issue well

[lost mist]

you cn have multiple traps work independently of one another
if you want to do that normally you would have to use cyclops
not only does this not need the cyclops but it's infinitely easier, plus it's actually forced

[timid sable]

I don't even think the mine layer is excessively overpowered-- just a bit overtuned in practice-- but its base idea is built off of being really fucking annoying.

And it lowers the skill floor and ceiling for a demo just by having it equipped

[shell spruce]

This is also true, and probably why some see it as overblown

[timid sable]

you can't "get better" at using the mine layer.

[shell spruce]

Because for certain classes, it’s definitely less of an issue

[timid sable]

stickies have a crazy high skill ceiling that mines come nowhere near, but they both get similar value.

[timid sable]

god i cannot fucking stand the mine layer when i'm playing as Heavy. getting spammed out on a point and having over half my health deleted before i can even consider getting off the point is infuriating

[drowsy dawn]

i think people exaggerate how easy stickies are to use, at mid range picking off distracted people sure you can use them without much risk but as soon as people start rushing you thats where your timing and aiming is really tested

honestly even without the firing speed buffs i think mines are still too easy to use for defending yourself and for attacking because you dont have to worry about mistiming your bombs if they detonate perfectly on their own

[shell spruce]

Yeahhh and one thing that doesn’t get talked about enough

Sure you can shoot the mines

But take Heavy’s weapons

The shotgun has a bunch of spread, so you’re shooting at the damn target like three times before it actually fizzles

[timid sable]

there are cases where you quite literally cannot shoot the mines lmao

[shell spruce]

And the minigun not only has a long rev time, but it ALSO has spread

[timid sable]

and plenty of times where you can but you'll probably get killed by another source because you're in the middle of a fight

[shell spruce]

This, too, if you’re getting spammed out in a fight

It’s so annoying

[timid sable]

like, stickies on the floor in the middle of a fight restricting your movement is a thing that can already happen. the difference lies in that the demo who has those stickies there needs to be watching them or else they will do nothing. mines can get guaranteed value with no input by the demo

[timid sable]

i think the mines have the same hitbox as stickies for shooting them, which makes it deceptively small

[drowsy dawn]

oh my god yes i've been trying to say this so many tiiimes

you shouldnt have to stop to destroy a trap that the demo is not paying attention to

[shell spruce]

Yeah, they definitely do

[shell spruce]

Trapping takes skill

And it should always take skill

[restive nest]

What? Like Modern art?

[drowsy dawn]

ngl i think people think stickies take no skill because they can farm kills off bad players with them without considering how they would do against players who know how to fight a demoman

[timid sable]

i think the argument of "you can get lots of kills by sticky spamming which takes no skill" is dumb because like. stickies are meant to have a low skill floor. yes, you can spam and do decent damage, but you can also spam badly and get no or little damage. using stickies at maximum effectiveness is actually pretty in-depth and as such they have a pretty high skill ceiling.

by comparison, the mines have the same skill floor but a much lower ceiling because you can't get better at shooting out low-commitment bombs that do everything automatically.

[shell spruce]

I would argue effective sticky spamming does take some skill

You can’t just spam M1 and M2 and get super effective results

You have to deliberately place them where the enemy is going to be because of their arm time

You also have to be mindful of the clip

[timid sable]

you can absolutely spam badly

[shell spruce]

Reloading 8 explosives individually can get you killed

[timid sable]

you might get a kill but you wont be the most effective and are open to dying during downtime

[shell spruce]

Exactly

I feel like people talk about sticky spam like it’s as easy as splash kills on soldier

Which it’s not

And hey, rightfully so, cause it deals a lot more damage than splash rockets

[stiff niche]

its not??

[shell spruce]

No, it isn’t

Give it a try yourself, you’ll see the disadvantages pretty much immediately

Pure mindless spam is really easy to counter

Hell you could just wait for them to blast through their whole clip then pick them while they reload

At best they might get a sticky or two on you, but keep moving and at worst it’ll be minor splash damage

[timid sable]

a new player can pick up some kills spamming with no regard for anything other than vomiting bombs but they aren't gonna be dominating a server

[shell spruce]

^

I feel like that isn’t super clear to anyone who ISNT fond of playing demo though

It’s fair to say from the victim’s perspective, it can all sorta look like spam

[remote granite]

I will mention; seems like the original workshop page had a more engaging statblock, where the Demo had to be more involved and the enemy could wait the mines out

Hold Alt-Fire: Mines become live and auto-detonate after 4 seconds
Abort Alt-Fire: Force detonation

- 25% clip size
- 2 max stickybombs out
- 0.8 sec slower bomb arm time

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1270

[timid sable]

not related but i find it telling that most of the people talking against the mine layer are going in-depth as to why they dislike it and its problems, whereas a lot of the people what are in favor of it are just pinging me with "no" or "i will kill you" lmao

[remote granite]

I'm curious what caused the development to change from the workshopper's original vision

[timid sable]

it probably just wasn't that good in testing

[solemn mirage]

i actually like the idea of having to hold the weapon out/hold down a button for the auto detention to work

[shell spruce]

Yeahhh

[solemn mirage]

thats way more interesting then just slapping mines down on a rock somewhere

[shell spruce]

Not dissimilar to my suggestion of having a fizzle timer

[timid sable]

literally any kind of manual input is better than full auto 😭

[shell spruce]

I have to get this off my chest actually

[solemn mirage]

even if it didn't auto det after 4 seconds the commitment of needing keep the button healed for the mines to work is good enough

[shell spruce]

It often feels like a case of bad players arguing with better players

Or just inexperience at demo specifically

[remote granite]

better skill-wise or better in terms of game design literacy?

or both?

[shell spruce]

Like having one detractor in this thread legitimately find it shocking that offensive stickies could have more thought put into it than spamming M2

[shell spruce]

Former, mostly

[remote granite]

I'd like to say I'm more in the latter camp, though I'm not the best at rhetoric

[timid sable]

i will say that generally i see frequent mine layer users being actively much worse at demo in practice because they're just shooting shit out with no regards for placement, then whenever they switch to stickies or dynamite their effectiveness goes down a lot

[shell spruce]

I know it’s not very nice to say

[timid sable]

i've seen this happen at least 2-3 times

[shell spruce]

But I just

I can’t

[remote granite]

how do you have your effectiveness go down when switching to dynamite as a player bad with stickies?

[shell spruce]

It’s always a really shit demo arguing in favor of the mine layer :x

[solemn mirage]

i mostly just use the minelayer for camping on like 2fort, makes me feel like im playing fnaf

[remote granite]

you throw it in the general direction of the enemy, use grenades to try and spam them away from the other direction, and get at least a couple kills that way

[shell spruce]

The dynamite is pretty easy to use, toss it out near a resupply at the start of a payload match on offense

It’s really funny lol

[remote granite]

cause I myself am pretty shit at Demo, he's my worst class

[timid sable]

you have to actually consider where you're throwing the dynamite, the arc it's taking, and sometimes how high you can throw it to minimize the time it can be disarmed if throwing at a nest. You also are forced to be good with your pipes, which i'll admit is not linked to the mine layer specifically, but with dynamite you don't even have the option of brainless spam in place of pipes

[shell spruce]

I mean if it’s how you like to play, it’s how you like to play

But I’m glad you seem open to compromise at least

[timid sable]

you can totally throw dynamite badly and get zero value because it explodes on its own with a timed fuse

[remote granite]

always found stickies to be unintuitive to use even if it's rather brainless for those who've managed to click with the stock SBL, which is why I appreciate the existence of the Dynamite Pack

[shell spruce]

Yeah, the dynamite is a better way of getting those who aren’t very good with stickies into playing demo

[timid sable]

you actually need to put quite a bit of thought into stickies when you aren't just spamming

[shell spruce]

Especially since you get more primary ammo

[restive nest]

No because I genuinely used it yesterday and top scored without any input. It feels like that Lazy purple scene with the demo clicking his mouse and using his foot on the keyboard.

[timid sable]

i say this as a dynamite enjoyer who mainly plays demos so i can hit pipes

[shell spruce]

I’m the opposite, I switch on gunboats and go ham with stickies

Sticky jumping is really fun when it’s actually viable without a medic up your butt

[timid sable]

you can do well with any high damage source in a lobby where players are less experienced than you. just lobbing them at people randomly is still not always the most effective way to play demo, and even then you can spam badly.

[shell spruce]

Obviously if you’re playing 24/7 double cross or 2 fort, spam works

[timid sable]

and again, this is not an argument that works in the mine layer's favor

[shell spruce]

Certainly not

[timid sable]

because the mine layer just removes half of the skillset of stickies entirely: timing

[shell spruce]

It’s to the point where I refuse to use it after the initial testing

I feel nasty using it

[timid sable]

even if they nixed the fire rate increase i wouldn't be happy with its state in the game tbh

[shell spruce]

I don’t have to time my traps, I can spam easily and in some cases even more effectively

[timid sable]

i was going for the achievements on it but stopped because i felt bad lmao

[restive nest]

I don’t think I did that.. did i?

[shell spruce]

Well evidently you haven’t made a strong enough case for it to change anybody’s mind

Tops you got me to eventually try and compromise because you wouldn’t budge and I hate the mechanic so I want it effectively gone any way possible

[timid sable]

no, but you are providing arguments like "stickies are easy tho" which isn't a point in favor of the mine layer

[shell spruce]

And mindless bickering online won’t fix the silly mines

[restive nest]

When I tell you I haven’t sticky spammed before yesterday, I mean it. I’ve always had a vendetta against it and never used it other than for achievement purposes.

so me opening up day one and just stomping the server with no prior sense of timing just makes me think “why does shit does he have 8 of these things?!?”

[timid sable]

demo as a class has a low skill floor and high skill ceiling, and the mine layer keeps that same floor but drastically lowers the skill ceiling by eliminating half of the skillset required to play demo.

[timid sable]

okay, that doesn't levy anything against the Mine Layer, which is what this thread is about.

yes the class designed to have high burst damage has high burst damage lol

[shell spruce]

On what server, might I ask?

Cause if it’s 24/7 anything, I’m going to riot

[restive nest]

Like, EU standard, forgot which one.

[timid sable]

the point is that you have to commit to that, whereas mines allow you to not commit at all and can even split your attention while still getting value

[restive nest]

Oh please, I’m not that deranged.

[timid sable]

rabble is usually on VF4 EU servers

[shell spruce]

Oh, I don’t play on the EU servers, so I actually wouldn’t know what those players are like

[timid sable]

I also cannot speak for the general playerbase of EU

[shell spruce]

I tend to enjoy projectile classes so the ping kills me, even if my time slot tends to align better with EU players due to my sleep schedule

[restive nest]

See, that’s probably where are difference lie. While I assume the US server has it fair share of user… we got Kanola… that shit should already paint the shit I gotta deal with. Like my Head privileges just get revoked if I see him on the other team.

[timid sable]

Klonoa

[restive nest]

I call him Kanola

[shell spruce]

I still need to get better at sniper

[remote granite]

feels about the same as NA

[timid sable]

my b i thought it was a typo lol

[remote granite]

in part cause the NA/EU playerbases might as well be the same lol, they both tend to just join whatever server has players in it

[timid sable]

but yeah complaining about sticky spam being easy has nothing to do with the Mine Layer

[restive nest]

Probably is, but I’ve always mispronounced his name, and that just been my gimmick now, I’m shit with names. So I just stick to it

[shell spruce]

I join whatever server has good ping and a moderate amount of players

[timid sable]

yeah p much, most people just join whatever is populated

[shell spruce]

I’m cool with smaller player counts though, cause voice chats with a million people trying to get a word in gives me a headache

It’s why I despise discord voice calls

Idk how you people take it

[timid sable]

i just remember it because Klonoa is a video game series lol

[remote granite]

i'll give this a try

[shell spruce]

Klonoa is fun and cute

[shell spruce]

It’s really fun!

[remote granite]

any tips for how to make sticky spamming click?

[restive nest]

Well in my perspective, the Mines Were meant to be a more defensive trap based tool. Granted they do the job much easier, hence why I wouldn’t mind a louder Audio warning. But I just hate spam. All of it. any of it. It makes me want to blow my brains out myself.

[timid sable]

gunboats are heavily underutilized outside of camping which sucks

[shell spruce]

View them like mini traps, not like rockets

[remote granite]

damnit the only servers with players are 24/7 doublecross and 4-team arena aaa

[shell spruce]

Aim stickies where you think they’re going to strafe, not where they are

[restive nest]

No idea, i literally just taped down M2 half the time. And then when I saw Shak, I just threw more bombs before detonating.

[shell spruce]

Me ngl

I hate that

I wish the 24/7 servers were swapped out for like

Variety TDM maps

Oh another tip

[remote granite]

like the 24/7 Hightower servers on live TF2?

[restive nest]

Tell me about it. I’ve had to get into the habit of setting up on B on Badwater just to fuck over THOSE demos… they’re catching on to get around it, it’s so fucking ass. Why did the devs give him the Metal Yeezes.

[shell spruce]

High tower would be fun… don’t give me any ideas

[timid sable]

sure, but they have failed at that because they're still able to be spammed just fine and always have been, and are even situationally better at it than stickies due to multiple factors. the automated traps are also a major pain point that sucks a lot and removes a layer of skill expression on demo (yes, you can be bad at sticky traps)

[shell spruce]

Spawn camping is easy to deal with and the benefits of sticky jumping are huge

Demo is far more mobile with them and it’s super fun

If the devs got rid of the gunboats on demo but did nothing to the mine layer, ngl I might crash out and quit the game LOL

[restive nest]

You’d think that, but when I yelled at my team, “guys there’s a demo at spawn don’t go out.” Why is it I watch 3 of my teammates immediately walk into it 5 seconds later.

[remote granite]

and our point is that the ScottishResistance is better executed as a defensive trap based tool

[shell spruce]

I’m not responsible for brain dead teammates

Anyhow

[restive nest]

And if you could convince the devs to bring back Scotty. I will drop all charges and prosecutions. But that’s a Really Long shot.

[timid sable]

i don't think gunboats should be removed even if they're underutilized outside of being a dick because they can be used in ways that don't involve being a dick, and don't make demo an explicitly easier class to play.

[shell spruce]

Another sticky tip: shoot a sticky on both sides of a class you’re attacking

[restive nest]

They want gunboats pack to be viable… they’re smoking that Mary Jane up there.

[shell spruce]

Or look at one class, then aim stickies towards another walking by

I’ve gotten a bunch of med picks this way

[shell spruce]

I must’ve been high as a kite last night, cause I did extremely well with them yesterday

And I’m not like a godlike player

I explicitly hate arena mode because I suck, eh?

[timid sable]

now that i think of it i don't think i've ever seen a mine layer demo use their mines for higher-level things that a sticky demo would do (like trapping an escape route to kill a medic that is retreating after an uber)

it's usually just THUNK THUNK THUNK in the direction of enemy or funny wall

[shell spruce]

Ooooh my favorite thing to do with gunboats on demo

Medics don’t expect you to sticky jump towards them

Ooooh so much fun

[timid sable]

carpet bomb the mfs!!

[shell spruce]

Damn straight

[restive nest]

I put my mines in traps on defence and that it, yeah I might put bread crumbs down when I’m being butt rushed, but spamming it? UGH.

I just like having 2 traps ready like the Scotty from live… I’m working with what I can. The cyclops is too clunky for me to trap right

[shell spruce]

That’s because the cyclops is not an effective replacement for a defensive sticky launcher

I understand where you’re coming from, but the mine layer is such a bad execution of it

But you’re right, I don’t think the dev team will ever bring the scott in

I kinda hate how vehement they are with refusing good live weapons

[restive nest]

And the fact it keeps trigger shit I don’t want it too. Bloody hell. Where’s Scotty.

[shell spruce]

You’ll be in luck when the Steam release comes out

I’m going to host servers with some early live weapons

[timid sable]

yeah but at the very least you need to be watching your traps with the ScoRes, it doesn't literally do the job for you

[shell spruce]

You bet the Scottish resistance will be one of them

[remote granite]

hell yeah

[restive nest]

Probably because A. If you let one in, people will demand for another, so they’re closing that gate permanently.

Or B. Legal problems with Non- Valve made weapons being added for free. (Yes yes, drop system, but it’s still a grey spot)

[timid sable]

hell i think if they just lifted the ScoRes into this game it'd be an amazing Cyclops combo weapon given the longer arm time

[shell spruce]

Non issue for B, cause they already have live weapons

Flare gun, for example

[restive nest]

Well I need my 2 traps and Stickes can do it. I got no other choice, I want multi traps.

[timid sable]

the weapons that are in TF2C are achievement weapons that you can get for free, i think the scotty is one of them

[restive nest]

…that’s a Valve weapon.

I’m talking Community made stuff.

[shell spruce]

I’d imagine even fewer issues then

[timid sable]

yes which is why i wish the scotty were here instead so that we can have that niche but not have it be braindead lol

[shell spruce]

Besides, you can’t copyright stats

[remote granite]

that's fair

I was a bit harsh on them yesterday

[restive nest]

I mean, if you copy the stats of say… the Liberty… but not use the Liberty model, people are gonna see your just stealing it.

[timid sable]

checked, Scottish Resistance is an achievement weapon just like the flare gun and sandvich, so there's no reason it couldn't be here.

[restive nest]

True. But then again, where the lien in the sand, as “some people” will start Pelading for shit like the Gunslinger or the Direct hit… Sandman was brought up earlier.

Givecan inch and they’ll take a mile. Never hear the end of “BUT U LET THE SCOTTISH IN. RRRAGGHH!”

[remote granite]

we were talking about that in this thread #1376391667745296414 message

[remote granite]

and the answer is the same as it currently is: don't listen to them lol

[timid sable]

i mean i get that but the thing is we already basically have "The Scottish Resistance But Better" in the game. this would functionally replace the mine layer, not just be an out-of-nowhere addition.

[remote granite]

there are going to be way more people saying that when the Steam release happens anyway, they haven't been in the TF2C community like we have and they aren't going to care about someone saying "we don't want to add more live TF2 weapons"

[timid sable]

hell they could even use the same sound design for the Mine Layer on the scotty if they added it, to make it more distinct.

[remote granite]

if you wanna talk about the slippery slope starting, it already started the moment the Gunboats/Flare Gun/Sandvich/Kritzkrieg/Ubersaw got added in

[restive nest]

I mean, despite my long rep here, the devs don’t listen to me either way. Hell, Technobear thought I was a developer based on my Info dumping of weapons in a match one time.

[timid sable]

people were already clamoring to have live TF2 weapons added the moment the steam release was announced

[restive nest]

Me? A dev? I mean I’m flatter but- I wish.

[restive nest]

This was due to Most of them being Distinct side-grades compared to the Shotgun the trio had. Like… you can’t NOT give heavy a sandvich. That’s like his baseline stock. And the Kritz (while I hate personally) is a good sidegrade and a nice visual update for it, especially with Rng Crits out of the way, it has more purpose then before…

But the Half-ass Disguise of the Saw… ooooo Mamma Mia my ass, have I got some choice words for that Shit!

[stiff niche]

"You can't improve the game by reimplimenting already existing concepts because some people will be annoying" is not the ironclad defense you think it is lol

[remote granite]

I'm not that fond of the Ubersaw either

even in live TF2, most of the time the Ubersaw gets used is just feeding on bad players

[restive nest]

Tf2 is literally built on Reimplementing Concepts

[remote granite]

the Medic doesn't really have the tools to be proactive or aggressive with the Ubersaw, he mostly uses it reactively when punishing the enemy's mistakes

[restive nest]

I just hate the fact that it has a piss all downside for cutting down uber time by a Quarter, Ney, HALF because some dumbass spy can’t hit shit.

[remote granite]

so if you give the Ubersaw anything other than the most non-existent of downsides, people stop using it cause it's a "see the future" weapon; you can't rely on being able to utilize it consistently as part of your playstyle or as part of the current map's gamestate unless there's a really bad player actively serving as a detriment to their own team by feeding you uber

[stiff niche]

I think it's a good gamling weapon

[remote granite]

so I have to ask, what makes the Ubersaw deserving of special treatment but not the Scottish Resistance? the fact that some random devs from 10 years ago said so?

[restive nest]

Almost as if that would activity encourage the risk factor for that 25%… HMMMMmmmmmmm…

[stiff niche]

Do you want to take the safe bet and get out of it alive or do you want to take on a greater risk for potentially 25-75% uber gain

[restive nest]

The kid named Rng Crits:

[stiff niche]

Rng is just a really good poker hand in this analogy

[remote granite]

I prefer the risk/reward factor of the Shock Therapy much more

[restive nest]

Pretty sure medic’s have the Über charm equipment that gives them a 30% increase in crit chances

[stiff niche]

okay so he's playing balatro what do you want from me

[restive nest]

Never played it

[remote granite]

you can actually afford to be more aggressive with the Shock Therapy because 100 damage is a lot of damage if you can get it off; but the risk comes from not having any follow-up options if the hit doesn't serve as the killing blow, and losing out on your burst heal

[timid sable]

i wish the uberspritze didn't crit but that's off topic

[stiff niche]

New thread!!

[timid sable]

this discussion should prob get its own thread

[remote granite]

what would it be called? "Remove the Uber-spritze"?

[timid sable]

i don't think it should be removed, just its ability to crit

gives medics an actual reason to possibly take the bonesaw

[stiff niche]

"no random crits" actually having balancing weight is p funny

[restive nest]

Rework, Overhaul, Disintegrate, Annihilate, Exterminate,
All good options.

[restive nest]

I’d actually say no having Rng Crits on the Spritze would be a buff since you can go 2 for 2 on a target without losing that to a crit.

[timid sable]

it actually does have implications when melees are the only weapons that random crit lol

[timid sable]

the medic also risks dying as his target stays alive in melee range, he won't two shot a heavy anymore, but again this id a discussion for another thread

[lost mist]

Yes! Sticky Spamming is a dying art form

As in it makes other people die

[restive nest]

cough cough Chekov’s. COUGH

[restive nest]

Good.

Let it die.

[timid sable]

a risk that applies to literally every melee weapon when using chekov's so that point is invalid lol

[lost mist]

I don't sticky spam, I properly trap. For some reason however people call my Proper Trapps sticky spamming even though it is NOT

Just because I set up a trap in less than 5 seconds does not make it spam

[restive nest]

But, do you get 50% of the biggest Stalemate breaker in the game with a Kukri… no. No I don’t think so.

[lost mist]

Do you want me to spend the entire match watching a single doorway?

[remote granite]

i got a guy on AltTab yelling at me for gunboats sticky spamming lol

[timid sable]

this is supposed to be a discussion surrounding the mine layer

[restive nest]

…mods… Hammer him.

[lost mist]

We already concluded that it sucks, this is the main channel now

[timid sable]

y'all should probably move out to #tf2classified just to keep things on topic

[timid sable]

please don't.

[lost mist]

Anyways how many demos could a demoman man if a demoman could demo man

[lost mist]

okie doke

[lethal creek]

mine layer doesnt lay mines it LAUNCHES them
i havent played any game besides quake mission packs that has a weapon like this
even singleplayer games give you a few a piece and force you to toss them close or place them down directly

Duke Nukem 3D had a laser tripwire which was more balanced than this thing

[lost mist]

Minelauncher
All the issues with the weapons are gone now yay

MineCraft

[shell spruce]

The workshopper rarely comes up with stats, it's usually valve that assigns those

[lethal creek]

and valve usually just made sidegrades, rarely alternatives

[lost mist]

Minelayer bad Minelayer bad

[lost mist]

MINELAYER BAD MINELAYER BAD

MINELAYER BAD MINELAYER BAD MINELAYER BAD!!!!!!!

this is the most intellectual thing to ever be said in this forum

[lethal creek]

mine layer glad ☺️

[lost mist]

MINELAYER MAD

mine layer sad

[restive nest]

Mine Layer Lad

[stiff niche]

Mine layer RAD 🎸

[lost mist]

Minelayer dad

Minelayer Shat

[flint oyster]

true. how can people say something about weapons they didn't even play with. sounds like some of them are just angry because they got killed. i remember the same thing in rainbow six siege when some noobs cried about how blitz operator is op (he wasn't) so ubi nerfed him with all the shields and they became useless. don't even need to mention r6s, some people want to remove pyro or sniper or whatever

[lost mist]

Your username automatically invalidates anything you say I'm sorry

[flint oyster]

people like my name

[sullen pier]

I have no gripes about the Mine layer. I feel that any nerf, other then adding more means to disarm them would be a bridge too far. I would like to see direct rockets, and pipes and flares detonating them. But I don’t feel it NEEDS to happen, would simply be nice. I never complained about them, and haven’t found a compelling argument in favor of nerfing them. Stock is simply better, all weapons should be on par with stock. or have a unique niche function that doesn’t outperform stock in its roll. Thats easer said then done I admit, but as it stands Minelayer is no where near as useful as stock, and isn’t really broken, in anyway.

[lethal creek]

The problem with the mine layer is that it's supposed to be a defensive and strategic weapon but it works just as well for offense and spamming
It doesn't matter what your personal gripes are, this 👆is an issue that needs to be fixed

[sullen pier]

What makes yours or any other gripes more valid than others, because they agree with you? I see plenty of folks saying they are fine with it. But if you wanna add that .5 seconds delay between it landing and arming fine.

[lethal creek]

There is far more disdain towards the mine layer than apathy or satisfaction with it
the number of replies in this thread should clue you into how controversial the weapon is

[sage fox]

Historically this has proven to be a poor metric for this stuff, since two people who are at eachothers throats can easily inflate a thread. (Though the minelayer being controversial is a safe bet).
I plan to do more to gague community sentiment in the future

[lost mist]

Almost everybody in here agrees that the minelayer is unfun

The instant this weapons ideas forum came up, there were already three posts asking for a minelayer rework

[lethal creek]

i havent seen a single post here saying the mine layer is actually fun
unlike say the cyclops or even anchor

the most ive seen is posts saying "the mine layer is fine"

[stiff niche]

What about a poll? That way you can like make sure one guy can't overfill the thread with his own response

[sullen pier]

Thank you.

[stiff niche]

They probably can be done right in the discord too, or because done through an external site

[sullen pier]

We kinda have that with the reaction section.

[stiff niche]

Its a little different to a question being asked + a few options to pick from

[lethal creek]

the reaction section is "reactionary"
it's also a poor metric
people see a post titled "remove the mine layer" and its obviously going to get non-nuanced uninformed reactions

put up an official poll in the announcements section named "Should the Mine Layer be significantly rebalanced?" and we'll talk about the results

[stiff niche]

I guess there's also the question of how useful that would be

To the devs

[lethal creek]

They have to decide that for themselves

[lost mist]

MINELAYER BAD MINELAYER BAD!!!

[remote granite]

• I like using and/or playing against the Mine Layer in its current state
• I'm indifferent to the Mine Layer
• I think the Mine Layer should be reverted to a previous version
• I dislike the Mine Layer in its current state and things it needs buffs, nerfs or a rework
• I don't enjoy the Mine Layer at all and would rather it be overhauled entirely with a new statblock

[amber rose]

"Idk guys everyone voted the 4th option, I think they want us to buff the Mine Layer"

[lethal creek]

reduce it to three

[main kestrel]

replace/heavily reworked, i know those are equivalent but most people will think just dissolving the minelayer from existence rather than a practical replacement

[lethal creek]

• the mine layer is fine as-is
• the mine layer needs to be nerfed or reworked
• remove or replace the mine layer completely

[remote granite]

edited the wording

[cosmic edge]

scratches butt and brings finger to ur nose

[lethal creek]

👀
👃
☝️
👄

[sullen pier]

Uh.. B. I pick B final answer. What do I win?

[twilit zodiac]

because they were dumb enough to pay attention to the people who complained about the nerf and undid it

personally though I think the only nerf stock stickies need is a reduction in the clip size to make spamming less viable of a strategy(my personal choice would be to just make it 4, works fine for the Quicky Bomb Launcher in Live so I think it'd be perfectly fine for Stock in TF2C)

[lost mist]

Do not nerf stock stickies

[twilit zodiac]

the only way a Minelayer nerf would be acceptable is if Stock Stickies also got hit with the nerf bat

[main kestrel]

do not nerf stock stickies

it's pretty simple and not a "dumb enough" position that the stock stickies are honestly fine, the most i can see is making their hitbox bigger so they're easier to shoot

[remote granite]

I think it would have ended up sitting better had they not given up after just a single week

the main complaining group were unsurprisingly Demo pubstompers

even the competitive community were split on the nerf, and a lot of folks were actually happy about the nerf or willing to give it a try to see its long-term impact

but it got reverted before that could actually be seen

[lethal creek]

The big problem with that is when the Minigun got nerfed no one complained despite it crippling heavy quite a bit

should be noted that said nerf has not carried over to TF2C

[solemn mirage]

ive noticed that tbh

heavy is super oppressive in this game because of it

[drowsy dawn]

as he should be

[solemn mirage]

which he should be definitely

same thing with pyro, hes way stronger

[remote granite]

keep in mind that nerf was made because of the stickybomb nerf

same with the Axtinguisher nerf

so those classes got fucked over hard when Demoman got supercharged again with the revert

[solemn mirage]

wait so they changed a bunch of stuff to accommodate the nerf and then they just reverted it?

thats dumb

[lethal creek]

least stupid valve tf2 update

[remote granite]

yes

Love and War, as well as all the subsequent updates, were updates that didn't really have a concrete vision they were willing to explain or even stick to

like how they changed the Claidheath Mor and Panic Attack to milquetoast statblocks nobody liked for...???

[lethal creek]

i blame it on a bit of staff turnover
explains the dogshit MyM update too
trying to incorporate counter-strike competitive matchmaking into TF2

the staff simply had no clue about TF2

[remote granite]

I dont think he's oppressive

[autumn zealot]

I mean, people did. But Heavy isn't nearly as popular as Demo so it didn't gain as much backlash.

[remote granite]

he's just not held back by a lot of the bloaty changes made over the years

worth noting that his spin-down time is a lot shorter, but his spin-up time is notably longer in TF2C, so Shotgun is more viable

[lethal creek]

heavy in tf2c also has a weak ass sandvich that's nothing like its live counterpart or even the banana

it balances out, mostly

[autumn zealot]

Yeah the dps isn't that much different when you consider he doesn't have the rev speed buffs.

[lethal creek]

this is less about heavy and demo balance
and more about the playerbase itself

[stiff niche]

They actually already nerfed stickies, no one talks about it though

Midair stickies do less damage than they do in live

[lethal creek]

mid air stickies have been supplanted by the cyclops now

[stiff niche]

#tf2classified message

I'm also surprised no one brings this up ever

To the point where I think it may have been reverted down the line

[autumn zealot]

Also personally my biggest issue with the Mine Layer is that it's simply boring. It's worse than stock but you can get some cheeky kills with it every so often.

[lethal creek]

its stock but tuned in such a way to be extremely noob friendly once you figure out it's not only for defense

sticky is already a unga bunga weapon
now here's sticky but you dont really need to think

[autumn zealot]

Yeah, I feel that so long as the concept of automated Stickies is a thing that my issue of it being boring won't ever change for me

If I had to rework it I think I would make it have to be detonated manually, but the Demo gets an audio/visual cue when enemies walk over them.

[lethal creek]

like real life claymore mines

[stiff niche]

Or maybe the ability to see the stickies through walls, and detonate them depending on your crossair

[autumn zealot]

lmao just making it the SR. I wouldn't mind lol

[lethal creek]

woosh

[remote granite]

*claidheath mor mines

[autumn zealot]

But maybe that's the problem. It tries to reinvent the wheel when the SR already does that concept in an engaging enough way.

[stiff niche]

Do we have an offical stance on why the Scottish resistance is considered bad in live

I thought it was just because no one picks demoman to actually defend

[lethal creek]

people like to spam

[stiff niche]

You can carpet bomb entire areas

[lethal creek]

people like using the sticky launcher offensively to spam explosives

[stiff niche]

fair enough

[lethal creek]

SR is too big-brain weapon for the drunk caveman minds of demo players

[autumn zealot]

Yeah the problem is that it's too defensively oriented.

[stiff niche]

YKnow I originally thought the cyclops + stock would mimic the Scottish resistance in a way. But the delay is in the projectile speed on the cyclops rather than the arm time so you have to anticipate an enemy coming through your trap when you can't see them

[autumn zealot]

People like using stickies offensively so

[solemn mirage]

honestly i liked the steam page idea of needing to hold m2 for it to prime them and if you let go or swap weapons it destroys them

[lethal creek]

not even
SR requires planning ahead a bit
too hard for the average player

[stiff niche]

And of you do manage to do that your cyclops projectile is a big fucking warning a trap will go off so the enemy just backs off

[autumn zealot]

I don't think the SR is that bad of a weapon but it just lacks the versatility of stock.

[lethal creek]

spam is my biggest issue with the mine layer
a weapon like this should not be spammable
again ive played power fantasy singleplayer fps with more balanced weapons than this thing

[remote granite]

I dont think it's too hard as much as the SBL is too easy

[lethal creek]

i remember FEAR had a proximity mine
it was an offhand throwable and you only got five at a time

also it didnt stick to walls
and your throw wasnt that far

[rare holly]

LazyPurple had a bad take and everyone thought it was good

[lethal creek]

cring

[drowsy dawn]

what was the take

soldier mains trying to play demoman as if it was soldier ☝️

[rare holly]

Place traps 5 miles away from each other then sit and watch both while doing nothing else

[lethal creek]

ive got so many kills with the SR
it is my minefield weapon
14 stickies

🫳

🫴

[rare holly]

Needless to say he didnt like using it this way because thats not how you’re meant to use it

[lethal creek]

a lot of stupid tf2 potatoes think SR is only for holding chokes

thats just one of the ways to use it

its like only using stickybomb for trapping the point

[rare holly]

Its versatile defensively, not so much offensively

[stiff niche]

potatos are more Irish than Scottish

[lethal creek]

i call them potatoes because they are youtubers

tubers 🥔

[spark haven]

there's been a lot of messages,, but any conclusion?

[stiff niche]

Mine, it lays

[rare holly]

#1376701849599479919

cough shameless plug cough

Hopefully the less final language and more general focus can get people to come to a more general agreement

[timid sable]

Yeah, I'm locking this post now since the conversation's run its course and the discussion keeps going off topic.